360 - Edging In Recovery

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 360 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me, as always, is my co host, Nick Stembo.

Come close. Closer, closer. Oh, too close.

It feels familiar. I have no idea.

That is from the beginning of the original animated Aladdin movie where the storyteller or the narrator at the beginning is, oh, come closer. And the camera starts to pan and then it goes all the way, like it's Squishy Nose.

He's like, oh, too close.

And he has the story to tell you about the Arabian Nights. And yeah, I just always found that humorous and it relates to our topic today.

Oh, man, it just makes me think of Robin Williams, RIP man, he was. Have you seen the newest one? Like the.

Yeah.

Did you like that one because Will Smith was the genie.

Yeah. The whole genre of cartoons to live action, for whatever reason, the live actions just don't. They don't capture as much. I mean, I think they're fine. I mean, like, Beauty and the Beast was good. I thought Aladdin was good. There's parts of it like, oh, that was unique how they did that. But there's just something about. Maybe it's because I saw the cartoons when I was like 11, 12, 13 years old and kind of the magic of animation. But, yeah, they're just different.

These are the opinions our listeners care about. I just want to make sure.

And then the opinions that some people tell us, they skip over because they're like, why are the intros so long?

And we're like, you know who you are.

Use the skip button. We're sorry.

Yeah, that is true.

We have fun.

That is true. Also, our producer just put something in the trash on the computer and you can hear it in the audio now. But today, tie the intro in because we had Matt Dopschutz from Porn Free Radio and Recovered Man. We had him on today to talk about a topic that he refers to in recovery called edging.

Yeah. In the realm of recovery, it's easy for us to identify the distinct behaviors that we consider wrong. A relapse, you know, over the line, damaging to our relationships, to our wife, to our marriage, to our friends and family, like. And those become such the focus that there can be a danger zone of. Well, as long as I'm not doing that, there are other things I might permit myself to do. And that's what we would call edging. Or other people just call it Tiptoeing up to the line. And there's that spirit of I'm going to get close without going over the edge and I'm going to see how close I can get. And in my old way of thinking, we even rationalize or justify that. Well, because it's not that I've got some margin here where I can re enter into some of those old unhealthy behaviors because I know how to not go too far. And yet just like that quote, it's like we get closer and closer and then, oh, too close. We got too close and it hurts us. And we end up back in that binge purge and you end up kicking yourself, like, how did I end up here again? Well, it's edging. It's taking those steps towards that behavior. So I think this conversation will just illuminate a lot of that. And Matt is such a great guest. He's got such great ideas and just so real and practical about here's what I've done, here's what happened in my story, here's what a guy I worked with did that I think the tangibleness of this is really going to connect with every listener and give them some ideas of how they can address those kind of behaviors in their own life.

Yeah. And I think if this is a new topic for you, it is going to be illuminating, especially if you're early on in recovery. This is such a needed conversation. But I know for me, being eight years into recovery, this is still a topic that's so important to make sure that we're vigilant with. So let's get to it. Here's our conversation on edging in recovery with Matt Dobschutz. Matt Dobbschutes. It has been a while, man. Welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. Glad to have you.

Wow. Pure Desire, man. How many years is this for you guys?

Doing what? The ministry or the podcast?

Yeah, both.

Podcast. Oh, well, the ministry is what? 2007 is when.

2008.

2008. When they founded it. And then let's see at this episode, we're like five away from our seven year mark.

Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah, It's a lot on our podcast. Porn Free radio. We just got to 10 years.

Wow.

So now not every week. Not every week.

That's fair.

I definitely took some months off here and there, but 10 years feels like a good milestone.

That is a good milestone. And yeah, we do weekly, but I will tell you that there have been some where we re air stuff or we use a recording from an event. And so we take weeks off too. Let's not get, you know, too big for our britches here.

I just started doing that. I started putting out some, some best of type episodes and sometimes I don't look at the numbers all the time. Like think, I think last year one of my best episodes was a repeat. Like, like it was like the top one or two for the whole year. And I was like, really? Why do I even create new content?

What am I doing? Yeah.

Yes.

All this work.

So though I know all three of us could probably talk about POD for a while. Let's get into today's topic.

Yeah, I'm excited about this one.

Today we're going to talk about a topic that was a suggestion from one of our listeners and Matt, they named you as who they think we should have on the show. So I was like, well, this is a no brainer. Let's reach out and get Matt dobsheets back on. So it's kind of a two birds, one stone because we love having you on. We've loved the episodes we've done together. So we're going to talk about something that's known or I think Matt, more USO might reference as edging is what it's called. And so this can be, I think in some circles a known term, but I think widely it may not be super familiar for people. So what is edging specifically when it comes to recovery from addiction?

Well, it originally came from one of the NoFAP forums. They referred to it specifically as edging, as sort of starting to kind of masturbate or touch yourself, but to, to kind of, you know, abstain from, you know. Orgasm. Yeah, something like that.

Right.

Kind of getting to the edge, getting around into a roused state and then kind of, you know, trying to, you know, stave off or, you know, stop. And, and I think people, people were doing this and this was kind of a thing that was, it was kind of a way to act out without acting out. And I immediately, I didn't really relate to that, but I related to a lot of little behaviors that I was struggling with after I'd been in recovery for a long time that kind of mimicked my old porn behaviors, my old problematic porn behaviors. Whether it was little web searches or misusing an app that wasn't really intended to be, you know, an arousing type of thing, you know, like ebay or Facebook or things like that. I found myself doing these little things and obsessively doing these little habits that were essentially edging I was telling myself a story. Hey, I'm not relapsing here. Hey, I'm not looking at porn. This is somehow okay behavior, or maybe not that bad behavior. But what ended up, what I realized at some point was almost all of my relapses, all of my relapses with Torn started with this kind of edging behavior. And so that's what I started calling it on my podcast. And it connected with a lot of people because a lot of people get to a point where they go, hey, I don't want porn in my life. Hey, I want to quit. They go to like a pure desire group or they do a recovery group. And they're pretty good at drawing the bottom lines, like, okay, I can't do this anymore. This is off limits. But I think there's this natural kind of thing where we want to push the edge, so to speak.

Yeah, I think you're totally right, Matt. It's asking the question, well, what else can I do? Up to that line of not doing the bad thing that I've committed to God, myself, or others that I'm not going to do anymore. And one of the most eye opening pieces of my first year in recovery was learning that I had a pattern. I was so kind of trapped in denial and rationalization that I thought relapses just happened like that. I went along, life's good, family's good, and then just got triggered and would look at porn and kind of that binge purge cycle. And so it was really eye opening to realize I had a very predictable pattern that involved procrastination, spending too much time online, wasting time, and then going progressively to more and more risky sites. And in that pattern then I began to understand that edging would be any place where I had started down that old pathway. And it began to engage in that pattern because just like you said, Matt, thinking, oh, this isn't porn, it's not what I used to do. And I know now that I'm not going to go there. But sure, I can take all these other steps and probably stop myself. And that's where edging, I think, does relate really well to how it originally came about, is that belief that I can go right up to a line and get to experience still a lot of that pleasure. That neurochemical hit all the good feelings without crossing the line and going all the way. And yet, over and over in my own story and in men I've worked with in group, edging is the new pathway. It's like when we're on that old pathway, the brain knows where to go, and it's really just the pathway into destruction.

I think one of the things too, for our listeners who might be more familiar with the three Circles tool or the relapse prevention tool, I think this is when you start to blow through guardrails, or you start to tiptoe that line and maybe that space between guardrails and relapse, you find yourself spending more time there. And I think that it's easy because it's not super clearly defined that it's easy to justify those kind of behaviors. But that for me has just been a helpful thing to think about. Where in my recovery plan does this kind of fall? And it tends to be between the guardrails and the relapse.

Well, you know, I love you guys. You guys in pure desire groups, I think use the faster scale sometimes to talk about relapse. And one thing I like about that is there's the restoration state, or I'd call it like the kind of recovered state where we're healthy, where we're doing our plan, where we're staying sober, we're engaging in connection. And then there's this kind of scale of progressive relapse where some of it may not be acting out with porn, but it's like we're dropping priorities or commitments, or we're blowing through guardrails, we're starting to do unsafe activities, and at some point it can get all the way to a full blown relapse where we're like, okay, I just looked at porn. I went through all these boundaries that I was committed to not doing. But there's a lot of room between when you're in that restoration state to where you get to that full relapse. And that's what I like pointing out to guys is like, hey, this behavior that you're kind of making room for in your life, really, isn't that more of a relapse state? Aren't you really in kind of a relapse state at this point? You're not living in a recovered restoration state if you're spending an hour, you know, searching bikinis or something like that. I remember. I'll tell you how bad it got for me. This is early on when I'm learning this stuff. I remember searching for things that were sort of illicit. And then when nudity or porn would actually come up on the search results, I would cover it with my, my hand. Like I, I, you know, because I didn't want to cross the line, but I'm wanting No, I want to see some. I want to see this. This thing, but not nudity, you know, I.

Right.

You know, and it's like. So it's a. It was a little bit of a crazy state that I was still in. I'm obsessively, kind of compulsively, obsessively thinking about things. Compulsive action. It's. It's really mirroring.

Yeah.

You know, the. The old pattern.

Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah.

Yes. Let's dive into some specific examples that you've seen, Matt, as you've, you know, in your own story or worked with a lot of people in this area. What. What are examples you would give of ways that people edge or are edging when they're trying to live in sexual health?

Boy, I sent a long list to Trevor and now I can't remember where I put it.

We'll check on your memory recall here.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. So, I mean, some simple ones, first of all, objective objectifying people in public I think is one that you can easily slip into where you're sort of panning and scanning and you're focusing in on body parts. You're not really personifying people or looking at them as people. You start looking at them as sort of objects to. For your fantasy. I think that's. That's one that starts a lot. I was talking to a guy the other day in one of our groups, and he had had a relapse, and he. He kind of diagnosed how it started, and he said he was at the grocery store and he found him. He didn't find himself. He started choosing to kind of objectify someone, and then that kind of created some arousal and craving. Then he went home, did some, you know, kind of innocent searches, and I'm doing the air quotes for the podcast audience. You know, he did some searches that weren't quite that bad. Then he dabbled with that for a while, and then the next thing you know, he escalated to porn and masturbation. So obviously that can be one. Misusing apps, for example, trying to find something elicit on Amazon.com or eBay or those type of things.

Because then we can say, I didn't mean to. I wasn't looking for that.

Makes it justifiable. Yeah.

Other things where you're kind of letter of the law. I think with AI and stuff, people have started going, well, if I. If I read a little story that was generated by AI, it's not really porn or it's not. I'm not misusing any People. I've heard of people using, you know, looking up GIFs or little, you know, things with. With tools like messaging tools to try to find something, to list it. Yeah, you know, it's. It's really trying to find a little hit, Trying to be sneaky. But it can morph in all little behaviors. I think I'm curious.

I have some things written down too, but I'm kind of curious what you guys think. Are there edging behaviors that we can do? Because, Matt, you were talking about objectifying people. Can we do that with our spouse, too? Is edging something that can also play out inside of our marriage? Let me. Let me paint this out. So, like, you talk about objectifying, like, maybe I'm spending time with my family, but I'm just sitting there. All I'm doing is fantasizing about my wife, which, you know, I would say is like, I mean, we can talk about fantasy kind of in another conversation, but if I'm just objectifying my wife and all I'm thinking about is, like, her body and what I can get from her in that moment, does that qualify as an edging behavior? If it follows kind of the pattern that I had when I was in my addiction.

I mean, I'd love to know what Matt thinks, but, I mean, I think it's possible, because what I was going to say is in edging behaviors, it's really not about the images or lust. It's really the dopamine hit. It's the neurochemicals. It's that feel good arousal, that rush that our brain is used to. And I think that's what we'll get into, is that what makes it so dangerous, is that's what we were getting in our addiction was really more about the dopamine and the feel good for our brain, not the sex or the images or beautiful people or whatever. And so I think with our spouses, if I realize what I'm really craving is just kind of that hit, that dopamine, and it's really not about relationship or valuing my wife. If I grab my wife's butt or see her in certain ways or try to catch a glimpse of her changing whatever it is in our marriage, if what's driving it is my own desire to kind of feel something good and devoid of relationship, then I. I think we can be engaging in the same behavior. That's. That's what comes to mind for me.

Yeah.

I don't know. I mean, I could see where, especially if someone has had a really profound relationship with porn. That they could pornify their wife or they could bring in something that isn't tied in with intimacy, connection, but bring in something that's kind of selfish and self focused. I could see that. I don't know, looking at your wife and kind of getting turned on. I don't know if I'm edging. I don't. You know, I wouldn't say that. I'm sure there's a way that you could compulsively sort of misuse your wife or obsessively think about her, something like that. I could see that. But overall, I don't. That wouldn't be the first thing I'd look at. I. There's all the. I definitely think there's a lot of these things that are basically like these rationalizations. I would push back on the dopamine thing. Not that that's the only thing. I think there is a habit to this pattern. And you know, dopamine, we get dopamine by being listened to or by being in relationship. We get dopamine running. There's lots of places where dopamine interacts with us. I do think there is something about being sneaky, though, in this case. There's something about trying to get away with something that really mirrors the old hiding patterns. The real. At least the patterns that really hooked me weren't just the excitement and the arousal, but it was the entitlement, the sneaking, the kind of narcissism, the relational needs that I was trying to get met with pornography, in a weird way come out sometimes in these little. These little edging behaviors. One of the guys. One of the things my guys say a lot too is they've noticed edging goes along with anxiety. Right. They're more prone to edge when they're stressed out about work or when they're feeling anxious. And so I do think there is an emotional connection also, probably a physical connection to that too. Right. I'm feeling this negative emotion. I'm feeling this negative feeling. And I want to feel good. I want that escape. So this little thing's going to maybe provide relief.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I certainly don't want to portray that dopamine is negative because you're absolutely right. There's all kinds of healthy ways that we pursue that and can find satisfaction. But we also know that sexual content and sexual triggers are the fastest way to initiate the dopamine. And there's other chemicals as well. And I think it's all the above. As you're saying, Matt, the connection to risk, to secrecy, to Hiding to feeling that old sense of entitlement. Yeah. It all, I think, plays in. And when we edge, we start to kick that whole system back into gear. And I think that's the whole point of doing this podcast is that's the danger, is it's starting up an engine that we've recognized. This leads nowhere good. And some other behaviors I jotted down, I think obsessive time on social media sites, or even just going to social media in general if we've told people we're staying off of it. I've heard a lot of guys in particular talk about wasting time on news sites and kind of getting lost in the political stuff. And then there's all the clickbait at the bottom. And they start to say, I realized I was looking more for what was the provocative image on the clickbait at the bottom. Not even the article itself. Channel surfing. Just hoping to maybe see even a title that might create some of that buzz or intrigue. Watching questionable movies or TV shows that someone knows it's gonna have content like, oh, I'm not watching it for that, but really in the back of their mind, they are waiting for that or hoping that will come up. You kind of mentioned this one, Matt. Friending people on social media simply because they're attractive, or getting into profile searches of, wow, that person's a friend of a friend, but they're in a swimsuit there. And I wonder what other profile pictures. And now it's like, well, now I'm just curious. That was a huge part of my pattern, was that excuse of, well, I'm just curious who this person is. And if I'm being honest, I knew it was all part of that edging further and further towards explicit content. So I had to recognize that in my own story. But those are. Those are things I've heard from a lot of different people in recovery.

Yeah. So this is something that. This is maybe more the question, is this specific to recovery, or does this term, like, can falling into patterns of edging in other areas of our life, like, how else can that maybe move us toward unhealth? Is it just specific to sexual addiction? Are there other arenas of our life where edging can lead us further away from the health that we want?

Well, I'm sure there's other ways that we can procrastinate, other ways that we can get obsessed with things that would waste our time and create distraction. The reason why edging is important for me to look at is because it's so often led to relapse. And since sobriety is important to me, I want to stay in that restoration state. I have to take a real hard line on edging and really fundamentally treat it very seriously. There's a couple of quotes that I love. One of them is from a book that kind of questions 12 step. But what's interesting, in this book, they said this thing, they said craving isn't something that happens, it's something you actively do. And it kind of pushes against the idea that we're just compelled by craving. Like it just comes out of nowhere. It kind of tries to go to the idea of what choices do I have in this. And when I look at, you know, 95% of things I've done in search of my addiction or in search of acting out, it's usually always starting with me taking steps. And so that's one thing that really led to me getting long term sobriety was really taking really zeroing in on these interactions. And I would say in terms of staying recovered, these are the things that I'm checking in sometimes is when I'm finding myself getting to these patterns or getting close to these patterns. These are the things I'm raising red flags about with my accountability people.

One of the things we've seen is that in recovery, people will begin to expand their definition of relapse. Because as they get a handle perhaps on sexual behaviors, they realize I want to include if I explode in anger at my kids or another person as a kind of relapse. Many people are battling co addictions with things like alcohol or gambling. And what comes to mind for me with edging is that anywhere we have created that kind of a boundary to say this is a behavior I don't ever want to go back to because I've seen that it's damaging to me and my relationships, then I think there's potential that we could edge. Because what we want to recognize in any of those behaviors is we got caught up in them because they did something for us. They met a need. In a twisted kind of way, they solved a problem. Getting powerful and angry at kids, you can dominate and get your way. And so we see, man, that's the benefit. But I don't want to do that again. But we may still edge in that area of life. Like maybe we start to power up our voice and raise it and we get a little physically intimidating. And well, I didn't blow up, so I didn't relapse. But I started to feel some of that same power of emotional energy. That's my old pattern. And I think that's what we can just look at is where are the places I've committed not to going back to, and then what are the behaviors I maybe start to engage in? Because it gives me some of that old feeling. And I'm trying to just. I love what you said, Matt. Identify it as a serious issue. Because the thing I'm actively trying to avoid is very serious. And if I know that edging is a pathway back into it, I've got to treat some of those behaviors with the same level of intensity to avoid them because of what I know it leads to. So I think we can expand it to just whatever it is we're really trying to create change on in our life.

Yeah, absolutely.

I have two examples of where I did a check in recently to check something in. And the reason I check things in for me now is to create safety. The faster I check something in, the less. It's a secret, less power it has over me. It kind of cuts through any obsessive thinking. So I'll give you two quick examples. One, I was on Twitter, which. That in and of itself could be problematic for a lot of people, but I'm a big basketball fan of the Loyola Ramblers, which is my college team. And so I'm always on there reading fan posts. And right now, guys are moving around different schools, and it's called the portal season, where people are transferring. And so I'm on there. One guy is going to transfer, and they mention it, and there's a commoner who I see post sort of a funny comment, and I click on the profile and it turns out it's not a real person. It's probably a bot. And there's just all these kind of sexy pictures of this kind of avatar or whatever, this person. I don't even know if it's a real person. I have no idea. And immediately my brain goes into like, oh, my gosh. You know, And I'm shocked. And then I click out of it. I click back into it because almost like, did I see what I thought I saw? And immediately I'm like, oh, my gosh. This. I never get into trouble with Twitter. I never cross these boundaries. I just, I. You know, this is like, I've just opened up Pandora's box a little bit for myself. So immediately I start thinking, I need to make a phone call.

Yeah, right.

Because. Because if I don't, there's going to be this poll to go back to. Misuse Twitter again. Right? Oh, let me find that comment. Let me find that Comment again. Let me click on it. Let me go deeper. So, so I fired off a message. You got time for a five minute check in to one of the coaches that I work with. And, you know, sure enough, we jumped on, I checked it, and as soon as I checked in, I felt completely back to normal, right back to the, the restoration state. Like, okay, no secrets. You know, I'm, I, I have a plan for how to handle it. You know, obviously if, if I kept doing that with Twitter, it would, I would get rid of it. But I don't misuse Twitter. So, you know, so that was one. That was one. That was one. The other one was my wife was. Went to a spa the other day with her friends, and it's one of these Korean spas where, you know, they all get in the hot tub naked or whatever. And she just mentioned it. And immediately my brain started going in over, you know, started going to overload and I actually stopped her and I said, listen, when you just shared just now, my brain just started, like, undressing the people you were with. Like, and, and she was like, oh, really? Like, it didn't even occur to her. Right. But when I shared it with her, I go, this is important for me to share with you because I feel like I'm keeping a secret. I feel like I'm starting to withdraw into myself, into fantasy. And so I'm going to talk about this and then if I have more thoughts about this, I'll, you know, here's the steps I'm going to take. And, and what was interesting was I did it, did think about it a couple more times, but it was much more manageable. And one of the things that helped me was I'm not keeping a secret here.

Yes.

I've already told Janice about this.

Yeah.

I'm not, I'm not giving this any room to take, you know, to, to take any root. And I felt good about it. So. But those two things, right. In the past, I would have completely ignored. Yeah, right. A passing thought as my wife's sharing or a little, you know, accidental, you know, click, clickbait type thing on Twitter. I would have totally ignored those early in my recovery.

Yeah.

And not even thought to check those in.

Yeah, those are, those are great examples, Matt, because I think a lot of people that have struggled in this area can relate and go, yeah, those are, those are the seeds that give birth to destructive fruit in my life. And I've got to start seeing where do the seeds get planted and do good work then? And that's really, the next question, what it's all about for men and women that are in recovery. These patterns have been familiar to us. We've maybe been in some of these patterns for years and decades. And so edging behavior might almost be some ingrained responses because of years of struggle. So, so how can men and women become more aware of the potential for edging and aware of when they're starting to do that?

Well, I mean, I think one of the things to look at is to ask yourself, does any action that you're taking, where is it heading? What direction are you facing? Because, for example, I could be on Twitter looking at Loyola basketball portal news, and I'm not edging, I'm not showing up with that. Or I can be on that site and start having the sort of mindset like, oh, I'm looking for something extra here. Right. I'm on the news site and I'm scrolling to the bottom looking for something.

Yeah.

You know, looking for an opportunity to edge.

Yeah.

So I think asking yourself, what direction am I going? Is, Is a good thing to ask yourself. One of the things I say on my podcast, I was working with a guy in New Hampshire once, and I don't know a lot about that east coast geography. And so I said to him, I was just trying to give him an example of a state, state line. And I was trying to talk about the, the state line between relapse and recovery. And I go, how far are you from the state line of Massachusetts? And he said, like 30 miles. And I go, how far are you from the city of Boston? 60 miles. I said, okay, so let's think of Boston as a full blown relapse, right? If you get all the way to Boston, you've relapsed with porn. But let's go back 30 miles to that state line. What's the state between kind of maybe being a little bored or being, you know, maybe being a little, you know, procrastinating or just kind of in that state where you could go one way or the other. And then you, you take a step across the line, right. You do a search, you. You start to dabble in something that's unskillful. That's when. That's the thing we want to start getting good at seeing. What state am I in right now? Am I in a relapse state? That's why I love the faster scale, right. Am I forgetting priorities or dropping commitments or speeding up, or is anxiety starting to take over? Am I reacting? All those things are great indications of what state you're in. Because if you're in one of those relapse states, if you've kind of crossed the line, it doesn't matter if you've looked at porn yet or not. This is the time to figure out how to turn the car around and get back into that healthy state.

And what I love that you're talking about is the importance of identifying our patterns. And we have a tool in our resources called the matrix of addiction that helps us look at where does the pattern of relapse, or maybe even the direction that you're facing, are you headed toward relapse or toward restoration? It helps you identify that and so that you can start putting guardrails around the front end. And so I think that that's such an important piece to becoming aware of these edging behaviors and maybe where they are in our pattern. But I also love what you were saying earlier in the last question. Was that secrecy? If you feel that pull toward isolation, toward keeping secrets, toward not being honest, I think that's a good indicator that this behavior might be edging. If you're on your phone or on Twitter and your spouse walks in the room and you feel you kind of turn to where you're hiding your screen from your spouse or from someone else, okay, that's a good indicator. Secrecy. Is there something that you either feel guilty about or shame about that you're wanting to keep to yourself? And I think that if we can start to identify some of those areas or maybe activities that we do that we hold that secrecy or feel that pull toward it, that's also, I think, a good indicator that we're edging.

Yeah. And this is where, while we certainly don't ever want to see a relapse, it is where our relapses or even those moves towards it become instructive for us, where we can learn from them. Because I think there are moments of clarity to start identifying that pattern by doing some analysis of how did I get here? And kind of continuing to ask the question, well, what happened before that? Okay, well, like you talked about the guy in the grocery store, well, what happened before that? Like, maybe he realizes he was actually going to the grocery store with some emotional baggage of being angry at a coworker or angry at his wife, and that kind of set him up now to begin objectifying women. And if you can keep asking the question, well, what happened before that? I think you start to get to some of those seeds of your pattern that maybe we have been blind to, because all we've looked at is the porn or masturbation or whatever the behaviors are that seem obviously wrong and bad and we don't want to go there. And now we need to expand the field of vision. Well, it's sometimes in our weak moments where we've made poor decisions and that then in the aftermath we begin to see more clearly what led to this. And continuing to do that work earlier in the process, just like you did with your wife. I mean, mentioning a thought that you knew you've done enough work to know this isn't just a random thought. This is the kind of thought that I could get stuck in and that could leave me in a negative pathway and I'm going to just deal with it right away. And I would say most people, especially early in recovery, can't do that. They can't recognize it's happening until they've a day or two later gone much, much further with those thoughts. So, yeah, I think just looking for those opportunities that I can keep going further back and saying, well, what did I do before that? What caused that? And when you find those seeds, then identifying them and say, well, this is a part of my edging pattern and that self awareness really can grow over time.

One thing that I think is really helpful, and I say this sometimes to my guys, is edging habits are very stubborn because they're so small and so subtle and so sneaky. But they are paper tigers in some ways. When you start to really check in edging and check in an edging habit and create a strong sort of commitment around really is a lot easier to step, to let go of. You know, I used to obsessively look at channel guides to see, you know, if there was any sexual TV shows. Now everything was blocked on my cable, but I would want to look at the guide just to see what was on there. Yeah, and I did that for years, kind of sneakily by myself and felt guilty about it and weird about it. And when I finally checked it in, I think I told my wife about it. I said, listen, I'm doing this stupid thing where I look at channel titles and I said, I just want to commit that I'm not going to do that again. I didn't really create a tool. I just committed to not doing it.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

But the idea that I told her about the secret completely took the air out of that thing. I don't think I've ever done that since then. Just once I told her that. And sometimes you need to take more steps, you know, to really make something safer.

Right.

But once you do it, you don't you realize that, oh, that was just sort of an obsessive little habit that really, I mean, maybe provided a slight dopamine hit, but really didn't control me, like, when I was in the depths of addiction, for sure. And it's a lot easier to let go of.

So let's lean into that, because I feel like you've talked about this a number of times, and. And so it's obviously, if you're paying attention thus far, you're not just skipping ahead to this question. Relationships and community are an important aspect to addressing edging behaviors. Just speak to that, like, you know, when it comes to the area of edging, how does being in community or being known by other people and then being involved in our recovery journey, how is that helpful?

I just think that bringing part. Other people into your thinking and maybe even some of your crazy thinking just helps sort of. It helps sort of get outside of the. The idea that this is my only option. And it also. It makes the. The obsessive part of it more manageable, and it also provides you with some. Some support. Like, for example, let's say the Twitter thing. Let's say this was something I was doing regularly. Well, my coach, my other coach, Vern, he could say, matt, it seems like Twitter just isn't really safe for you. You're not using it very safely. You're continually doing this thing that you don't want to do, and then it's like, well, I can go, yeah, I think I need to get rid of Twitter, or, I need to change. I need to get rid of this thing. I think that that kind of ongoing relationship, bringing more people into what's going on with you really helps not only deal with the. Like, reduce the obsessive thinking, but it also provides more clarity. Even when you have to share something that's embarrassing. Like, it sometimes reduces the shame, but it also gives you more power. I had a neighbor DM me once, and it was about something that we shared in common, that we liked. And I felt kind of special when I got this dm and I didn't even know I was friends with her on Facebook. And I felt kind of special. And that little specialness, that little secret specialness, I realized, oh, that taps into that sort of obsessive wanting affirmation that kind of plays into my old pattern. I went to my wife and I said, hey, I just got this text from her and this dm, she goes, oh, well, she's just being nice. She knows you like that. And I go, I know, I know. On her part, it's fine. It's what I'm bringing to the party that concerns me. So here's how I'm going to handle this. I'm going to mention the dm. Next time I see this person, bring it in. It's not a secret. It's going to be in our conversation at the bus stop with the kids, and I'm not going to respond. Otherwise, I'm not going to get into a DM thread where I feel like I'm keeping a secret. So I'm actually just using. I'm talking to my wife. Like, I'm not even confessing to my wife. This is more, hey, this happened. Yeah, I know where this can go for me. So here's my plan moving forward to kind of get it into the light, to be open.

You're inviting her into your world. Like, it's that emotional sharing, too, where it's not just a confession of what's happening, but it's also like, hey, I want you to know me and how this hits me and how I'm processing and what I'm thinking about it. And, Matt, the more you talk about the conversations you and your wife at, I admire where you guys are at, the honesty that you guys are able to keep. I think it's incredible.

Yeah, my. My wife was really funny. She. At one point when I was on Facebook, I joined Facebook to get into a Facebook group. I needed to. I went through this training, and they had this free group, and that's how I had to get on Facebook. I had never been on Facebook.

How they get you.

So at first, she started approving my friends. Like, she was like, I'm going to approve. If there's a woman who wants to be your friend, I'm going to approve it or disapprove it. Right, right. So, well, she started approving people she liked, and. And I wasn't paying attention. One day I log into Facebook and. And one of her friends is, you know, going out to a party and is in this cocktail dress and has this picture of herself. She's just like, hey, I'm feeling great about myself. And. And immediately I'm like, wow, this. I did not need to see this image, you know? And I said, hey, I unfollowed that friend. Or I don't know how to either. Unfriended, I think. And she goes, well, why? She's a nice person. I go, yeah, but she posts a lot of pictures of herself. And then my wife Goes, oh, yeah, you're right. It's kind of like a blindness. Right. My wife didn't necessarily know what's good for me or what's healthy for me. So part of the conversation with her is just getting more clarity about what's safe for me and kind of owning my own recovery and just saying. It's just. I mean, she's a nice person. I just don't need to be her Facebook friend.

Yeah. And that's the value of community, is we're able to invite other people in in a way that creates awareness. You know, a quote that I've used a lot from Andy Stanley, who uses it in sermons, is to talk about issues that are easier to see through the window than in the mirro. We can see it in other people quicker than we can see it in ourselves. And I think in a group setting, when other people are sharing some of their patterns, talking about what they do when they edge, there's a lot of times light bulbs go on and we realize, oh, I do that too. Or I've never realized how that's a part of my pattern. Or even when I hear myself saying something out loud. It's amazing how differently something sounds in your own head, in your own thinking, versus when you say it out loud in a group of people that are committed to your recovery and healing with you. And it's like, man, suddenly that behavior sounds way more devious or way more destructive. Why was I rationalizing that one? There is. There's power in the light and there's the way that people can reflect back to us, our own behaviors, but also the way that we can see in their story, things that we need to pick up on and learn as well. Because maybe we're blind to it in our life, but we see it in theirs. And then we can make those adjustments because of that. So, yeah, I just, I think there's so many ways community is an essential part of this process.

Well, and something, Matt, you've talked about already with your check ins, and this is something we have as a part of our groups is phone calls. We're requiring people in recovery to make three phone calls every week. And one of the things that has come to mind is, you know, it is that being able to bounce that off. Somebody check in. Here's where I'm at. Here's this experience I just had or trigger or whatever. But also people would ask, well, what if that person doesn't answer the phone? And to your point, Nick, we would say, well, still leave a voicemail and do your check in on the voicemail. Because there's something that happens when you hear yourself say it out loud that Matt, you spoke to it earlier. Almost like the power that that had on you just goes away. And I'm not saying that happens every single time, but in my experience, a high percentage of times if I'm able to articulate it, that trigger or that temptation is gone. If I'm able to articulate it in a community environment.

I had a friend who did exactly that. She was watching a show on Showtimer which one of those channels like HBO or Showtime, and it was late at night and she realized she was getting kind of hooked by the story. And then there was some sexual stuff in it and she realized she was getting overly invested in the sexual part of it. And it was like 11 o' clock or midnight. And she goes, who could I call to just get some safety with this thing I'm watching on my computer? And she thought of me maybe because I had been open about my story. And so she calls and leaves this message. Now I don't get the message. It goes to voicemail. It's midnight or 1 o' clock in the morning. And she makes a commitment to put her computer away and to not watch the rest of the show and to, to text me in the morning, like bookend, essentially, you know, you know, kind of. And so I am asleep. I sleep in the next morning till like 8:30. There's a second. So I wake up and there's two voicemails, one voicemail, hey, it's late, I'm watching the show. It's unsafe. Here's my plan. I'm going to put the computer away, I'm going to text you in the morning when I go to work or I'm going to call you. And she leaves the second message. Hey, I did what I said I was going to do. I stayed safe. I got a plan today to check it in with my, with one of her girls that she checks in with and that was it. And then I think I saw her like a few weeks later. I go, hey, I got that message. Go, oh good. Like she had already gotten the benefit.

And never talked to me 100%.

It's true. And what a great example of how to deal with edging. And that leads right into the next question of when we realize that we're engaged in some edging behavior. How do we address it in healthy ways? I mean, we've talked a lot about telling someone else, but is that it? Is it just telling someone else? Or what other ways might we encourage someone to deal with edging when they realize they're doing it?

Well, one I heard from one of my guys recently is he realized edging kept leading to relapses, and so he decided, I don't want to relapse anymore. How do I get rid of edging? So he loves coffee, like myself, and so he created a consequence for edging that if he catches himself edging, and he's committed this to his accountability that he doesn't have coffee for the next 72 hours. And I don't. That's kind of a rant. I don't know. 72 hours, is that three days?

That's a deep cut, though. Dang. Yeah.

And he said the moment that he committed to that and really was serious about it, man, just. Even the thought of, like, oh, I'm gonna click on this clickbait, or I'm gonna.

Yeah.

Or I'm gonna, you know, steer to this channel or whatever, all of that. He was like, oh, my gosh, I really need coffee. I do not want to get rid of coffee.

Can't give up the coffee addiction, but I'll give up the sexual addiction so I can keep the coffee addiction.

Hey, guys, guys, I've talked to God about this. We've really dialogued. He's like, mad, coffee's fine.

Yeah, he's on board. Okay, fair enough.

Good to know.

Also, I didn't know you were a prophet. That's also super cool, man.

No, no, God was, like, real clear about coffee. He's like, dabber coffee. And you. We can make this work. But no, the. I mean, I think consequence is a good one. Especially again, with edging. You can be fun with it. You don't have to. It doesn't have to be punitive in the sense of like, oh, I'm going to be an ascetic now. But, yeah, like that. No coffee consequence. That was meaningful. Now he's using that in community.

Right.

But I also think, too. Another thing I think you kind of alluded to, Nick, was asking yourself, once you catch yourself, what is this? What's. Why is this showing up for me right now? Am I anxious? What am I feeling? I used to. You know, you mentioned the. We mentioned the grocery store thing. I started realizing, hey, when I'm getting more obsessed with women's body at the grocery store, it's usually because there's a little bit of disconnection in my marriage. I'm feeling a little unseen. Or maybe like when we had younger kids, you know, how you get into that kid zone where it's like, it's just soccer games and baseball and you're going from one thing to another.

Yes, actively. We actively know this.

Right. Ships passing in the night. I realized that would happen to me sometimes is I felt like all I'm doing is kid events and this and that, and I don't feel. I feel like I'm in this. Like, I feel like I have a roommate right now and we're co parenting. And I would catch myself feeling like that little victim me. And of course, that's right when the woman at Whole Foods was kind of like, more attractive to me or more drawn to it. So typically, I would start to take a step back and go, okay, I'm feeling an uptick in wanting to objectify. So what's going on with me? Oh, Janice and I haven't connected in a while. Oh, we haven't even had a conversation in a while or a date night. Nothing, you know, so it's like. So that's another thing is when it shows up, you can start to go, what's going on with me? Is it anxiety? Is it boredom? Is it procrastination? Am I feeling resentful? Am I feeling disconnected, isolated, lonely?

Yeah. And I feel like that's what's so important about the recovery process, is that we're identifying the why to our unwanted behaviors, not just trying to address the behavior itself. And so I think what you're talking about is right on. And also, this is another place where I would just emphasize the importance of understanding our pattern again, is knowing what are the types of things or types of. You know, if I know that on Tuesdays when we have a big meeting, I walk out anxious, and then I carry that anxiety for three or four days afterward. It's like, okay, I know my pattern, and I know that I can start edging on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So what are things I can do before the meeting, Monday, Tuesday, after the meeting on Tuesday? And how can I get myself into a better spot? Like that just sets us up to be able to be more aware of potential edging and then also address it and reach out to that community a lot quicker if it starts to happen.

One other thing is ruthlessly rooting out secrets. So when I was before this job where I'm coaching guys and working on porn, free radio, I was in marketing and I ran a website for a brand. So I was in charge of some servers. I was in charge of Twitter actually, believe it or not, and some social.

Media stuff like the Whole organization. You were ahead of Twitter before Elon was.

You just had the whole.

No, no, no. I was ahead of the Twitter for our corporate brand. So it was kind of funny because I was edging with Twitter at one point and I, I created a consequence. I told my wife, I said, hey, I just started edging with Twitter and I'm going to create a consequence for edging or acting out with Twitter. And it's, I'm going to take myself off the Twitter team. And I was the head of the Twitter team and I'm going to take the app off my phone and I'm not going to have access to Twitter. And it was going to create a big challenge in my organization because I'm like, I'm the main person in charge of this. So I never acted out with Twitter again after that point. Actually, I was going to say the thing, I checked in this week. It's probably the first time I've ever had any problem with Twitter and that was like 10 years ago. But one thing I told my wife was I managed Linux servers and Linux is a different operating system than Windows and Macs and stuff like that. And so some of the tools that we might use, Covenant Eyes, some of those things don't really apply. And so I just said, hey, if I spin up a Linux thing, anything in the house that's, that's par on, on par with a relapse for me because it's so dangerous for me to, to engage in a platform. I don't have any real safety that I can create here. Yeah. So if I do anything with Linux at home, that's, that's part. It doesn't matter if I, you know, don't look at porn. That boundary is, has got to be really important. But as soon as I told her about that, that temptation to misuse or to get sneaky kind of went out the window. And. And I've started doing that with other things too. Apps. I did this earlier this year. I was selling my son and I have a hobby of reselling and thrifting. And I was on one of the reselling platforms that has a lot of young women on it. And I just realized, boy, every time I log into this, I'm seeing these pictures of these resellers selling their clothes and stuff, and it's just a little too arousing. And I, I checked that in and, you know, left the platform. But, you know, so, so like I just checked it in kind of and then ruthlessly rooted it out. And I have another platform that's safer, and I use that one, and it's fine.

Yeah, yeah. What I hear you saying is how important it is that we stay on top of these things and that they don't become ingrained patterns or we get into a place where, man, I've been doing this for a period of time and nobody really knows because I've been telling myself it's not a big deal, but because I keep going back now it's becoming a big deal. And by then we feel like it's too late. So I think that is key is staying on top of it and having those consequences is a way that communicates this is a big deal. Maybe not to other people, but to me. For my story, for my journey. I've identified this is a big deal, and that's why I've attached a consequence to it. If I go back and choose that because I want to remember that this is a big deal for me. And I think with that, just a small thing I would add is that as we've identified edging behaviors, we need to write down what our commitment is like, actually have it in writing somewhere that we can see it often refer back to. Because I think a danger in recovery is when we get into a period of health or sobriety where we haven't had any of those behaviors in a while. We can quickly convince ourselves, oh, I'm good to go, or things are fine, and we can forget what some of those places are or the commitments we've made. And I, in the years I was actively in addiction in my marriage, that's what my wife would bring up all the time, is like, well, you know, you committed to not do that, right? And I'd be like, oh, yeah, I forgot. And a lot of it was because I would commit to her in those emotional moments of trying to make our marriage better, but I wouldn't really write it down. I wouldn't remember it. And so then when I'd had a few good months, some of those commitments went out the window because they were just in my head or from a conversation. So I think if you have it in writing, that's the value of, like, the three circles tool or having your guardrails, your boundaries written out, that those edging behaviors are identified with your game plan. To say, here's what I do to avoid that, and here's why. Just so you keep it in front of you.

Yeah. Matt, you've talked a lot about this already on the episode, but we know that honesty is such a huge piece to living in recovery. Living in that restoration or recovered section. And I guess the question is just how honest should we be? Like, who should we be honest with when it comes to our edging and how much of that do we share? Do we share all the details? Give us some parameters on what it looks like to do these check ins and being honest about edging?

Well, I think the key for you is to share the essential information so that the other person can get an idea of what, what it's like for you. So it is important to be specific in certain cases. Now who you're specific with, I think can change sometimes. Like, you know, how you check in with your wife, for example. I'm very careful how I check in with my wife about other women and their bodies. There are times where I feel like I need to kind of check in something or, or, you know, create some more clarity. But I have to be careful. Especially the one thing that I would say that I would. When I'm trying to work out a challenge, like when I'm thinking about a threat or when I'm dealing with a situation, I'm more likely to use my accountability partner. When I haven't figured out what my plan is.

Yeah.

When I haven't figured out what my step should be for this.

Yeah.

I don't like doing that with my wife in the sense of, you know, kind of brainstorming how I can deal with this threatening situation. I'm much better going to my wife and saying, hey, I'm going into this challenging situation. Here's my plan and this is what I'm committed to. She likes that a lot better than, oh, I have this co worker I'm kind of drawn to. What can I do about it? You know, that wouldn't go over as much as going, hey, I'm, I'm going in this business trip and here's my boundaries.

Yeah.

You know, so that's, I, I don't know. It's helpful for me to be specific about certain things though. Sure. And I've seen this in groups too, guys. Sometimes they don't want to trigger anybody else and so they're, they try to not be specific, but then they end up sort of hiding in that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So one thing I say in our groups is, hey, we don't want to be graphic, but sometimes we need to be specific. And here's the good news. We have a safe place to deal with triggers. So if anyone gets triggered here, we can talk about it, we can bring it back to the group. There's more things there's tools we can use to deal with the triggering, but let's try to not be to the point where we're, you know, I mean, you've guys have probably been in groups where people check, you know, check in these sort of ambiguous prayer requests that you can't even. You don't even know what's going on with them.

Yeah. So how are we supposed to pray for you this week?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, let's. I have an unspoken prayer request about an unspoken temptation.

Yeah, yeah, that's a different meaning.

You're spot on. That the devil's in the details, that the real evil or the shame or the temptation lies in those details that we don't expose. And you're absolutely right that that doesn't mean everybody hears all the things. And every marriage where our spouse is at is different. I know for my wife, she has said, if it's in the area of guardrails or these kind of issues of edging, that's what I want you to have a group for, and I want you to be totally honest with them. But here's the lines that if you cross these lines, then I need to know, because for her, even the little stuff can reengage some of those past traumas and fears, and it can kind of open up the whole door to our story. And she's like, I don't want to have to go through that just because you maybe lingered on an image on Facebook or something. I want you to have your group for that. And then the more defined behaviors, like, yeah, that's where you would have to be honest with me. And so if that's where your marriage is at, that's awesome. Versus, I think others have been in group in their marriage, there's kind of an expectation that everything will be shared, and they found a rhythm of how that works and how that is creating honesty. And that's great. I just want to make clear that if your spouse is not at a place where they want to hear about edging behaviors, don't look at your spouse like there's something wrong with them or that they should be open to that. Find that accountability partner. Go to that group member. Have someone that you can share the necessary details to be honest about your behavior. Because as we've said so many times here, when you bring it into the light, when you're fully honest, it really loses its power, and it changes the whole playing field. And if you're not doing that because you're saying, well, my wife doesn't really want to hear it. And I don't really have anyone else. I can tell. I've said, well, that's not true. You're choosing not to develop a relationship with anyone else that you could talk with this level. Because I think there are a lot of people for other men or for other women that you could have that accountability partnership where they'd say, yeah, if you need to share that with me, I'm here for you. And we've got to be intentional to pursue that. But all that to say, if it's not your wife, yeah, it's okay that it's somebody else, but have some clarity in your marriage about what do they want to know, what do they need to know? And then kind of honor and respect where they're at in their need to know or not know.

Yeah. I think you guys are saying be honest, but there's also wisdom and discernment in the process of who we're honest and where we're honest.

Yeah, totally. Well, Matt, we love having you on and we love getting your wisdom. What are any final encouragements that you want to share with our listeners on how to help them deal with edging and overcome its impact on their life?

Well, one thing, you know, one thing about edging that I think is worth looking at is, you know, I think a lot of times we think the line between recovery and relapse is, is, you know, this, you know, hundred yard, you know, this huge gap chasm.

Yeah.

But I think it's more like a close election, you know, where, where some, some good recovery activities. If it gets you in the 51%, 52%, you're, you're in health, you're, you're, you're in health, and just a little bit of a slip can get you into unhealth. And, and, and the hope in that is you don't have to be 100%. You don't have to be like, like, you know, living your best life ever. You know, it's happening.

Yeah.

It's like, no, it's like, keep off that line. Keep in that recovery state. If you get close to the line, you realize, oh, I'm doing some. I'm procrastinating here, or, oh, I've been binging on Netflix for a couple of hours here. Oh, what's going on? Oh, let me get back into that healthy state. You can stay in that healthy state long term. That's the real thing. If you really take an eye on this line between relapse and recovery, if you really start looking at it and Start seeing these kind of warning signs. You can stay recovered indefinitely. And even if you start to drift over that line, you can turn the car around, you can turn it around very quickly and get back to that recovered state. And once you start realizing, oh, this is the benefit to checking this in, this is the benefit to being honest, then you realize, I don't want to go back to that hiding. I don't want to go back to managing all those secrets. Remember? Do you guys remember? I'm so glad I didn't have a smartphone when I was at the height of my addiction. But can you imagine if you've been acting out with this? I'm holding up a phone to the podcast audience. Can you imagine if you had this phone and you've been acting out with it and then your kid grabs it and you're like, oh, my God, what? Did I leave anything on that? Is there any tabs open? Like, yeah, is my history like, I mean, that would be so paranoid. Every time your kid grabbed your phone or iPad, if you were acting out regularly. And so as you start to get into recovery, you realize, oh my gosh, I don't want to go back to that managing all that anxiety, managing that fear of getting caught. I don't want, I actually don't want to accidentally expose my wife or kids to things I've been looking at. I want to stay in that recovered restoration state. So it's totally possible. And I think by taking a hard line on this, it really is the thing that leads to long term recovery. Because if we've determined that a lot of these relapses with getting all the way to Boston start with these little behaviors, if we can get rid of these behaviors, we're staying more consistently in the recovered space. Yeah.

Also, if any of our listeners live in Boston, we love you. It's a great place. You are not calling terrible people.

The only thing I was, it's funny, I was talking to a guy from Massachusetts. He goes, I get it. Yeah, okay. I get it.

Fair enough, fair enough. But no, I would just, the only thing I would say is just this is the importance of rhythms. I mean, rhythms, habits, things that we get ourselves into, habits of self care, rhythms that are good for us and our holistic health. That's where these become so important, is because those are things that will help us avoid edging behavior, will keep us in that, you know, above the 50%, 51% line in recovery. And again, it's not just what decisions am I making today, it's what habits Have I chosen to put into my life that help me head in the right direction that I want?

Yeah. And I would add, we've talked a lot about a line and that everybody has a line, and I think it's really important that you know where your line is, that when I'm getting up towards that line, I am edging, and that that line isn't relapse, but that line is my old unhealthy behaviors. And the thing I would say about it is be careful that you don't judge or shame yourself about where your personal line is at. Because I think it's easy to look around at other men or women in recovery and be like, well, how come they can do that? Or how come they have that freedom? Or, you know, everyone's on that website or everyone has social media. Why don't I? Why can't I? I want to be like my friends. And. And I get there's kind of that natural peer pressure or desire for all of us, but in recovery, we have to be honest enough to say I have a line. I've become aware of where it is. And even if in some areas I feel like my line is a lot further back than yours might be, that's okay. I'm not doing it for you. It's for my health and sobriety, for my family, for my future. And the areas that might be a particular concern for me may not be the same for you. And so just to be careful with that. If you're off social media or you don't have a TV or you're choosing a smartphone that has limited capabilities, and you might feel like, what's wrong with me That I have to do this? No. What's right with you? Good for you. That you've identified what is a problem for you and are willing to take more significant steps to avoid it, because that's where your line is. And maybe that won't be your line forever. But for now, if you're clear on it and. And able to just say, this is what I need to do for me, I think you can have a lot of success in avoiding those edging behaviors.

Matt, this has been a great conversation, man. We just want to make sure our listeners know to check out porn. Free radio, your show also recovered, man your organization. But, man, we love our conversation and our time with you. Thanks again for jumping on and helping out our audience with this topic, man.

It's always great to hear from you guys, and it's always great to hear about pure desire groups all across the country and I hear from guys all the time who are going through the seven pillars and things like that. So keep up the great work guys.

That's awesome.

Thanks man. Yeah, appreciate it. And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody, and write us a review. If you want more information on our groups, resources or counseling, just go to PureDesire.org and lastly, never stop being healthy.

It.