361 - The Cyclone Of Addiction

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, helping you take back your life from unwanted sexual behavior and betrayal trauma. Hello. Hello. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 361 of the Pure Desire Podcast. You're joining me, as always, my co host, Nick Stumba. Getting blue. Getting blue.

Anytime now.

What am I supposed to do? Could you stop, please?

Okay.

What on earth are you doing?

Have you never heard a tornado warning siren?

I live in Oregon.

Yeah, be thankful for that. Even where I lived in Gable, Wyoming, we had an alert system. And then they also, when I was a kid, they also used it in certain seasons for like a curfew for kids, you know, small town, traditional. Yeah. And it was like that, where you would. It was super loud and it like, it trailed off forever. I think it was a two minute, kind of like you could still hear it till the very, very end. You're like, if I started a timer.

Do you think you could do it.

For two minutes with enough preparation?

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. All right.

I'd have to really pace myself there, but. Okay.

Well, I. I'm sure people are going to understand here shortly that we had. Bob Vandermeer is one of our clinicians, one of our speakers on today to talk about imagery or a framework that we have in a number of our resources that we refer to as the cyclone of addiction.

Yeah. And my apologies to any friends from the Midwest or people who grew up in tornado country where that may have been triggering. Of course, I doubt that my personification of an air raid warning was that close to what they heard, but that's a very real part of people that grow up in tornado alley and cultures where you've got to have an alert system that lets you know something is coming. And when that goes off, like it's imminent, like you need to go. And what we're talking about so much in this episode is that there really is a system here of addiction that we compare to a cyclone and it's beginning to unpack all of the elements that create that moment. Because usually by the time, you know, if you're living in an area where a storm is coming and you hear that, that siren, as I said, it's imminent. At some point, it may be too late to get out of the storm's way, depending on what's happening and where you are. And that's the reality, I think, in addiction is if we just believe that cyclone is never going to hit us again, we're never going to relapse by the time we realize it's imminent, it's often too late. But if we can begin to see the signs and understand all of the components that have created that cyclone in our lives, it's actually very hopeful. And that's a word we used a lot in the episode, that there's hope of change, there's hope of altering the course of the storm before it even starts and going in a different direction. And so our hope is that understanding this metaphor really creates a lot of insights into someone's past addiction, or if we're a spouse, we're a family member, we're a pastor, or someone trying to help others. That today's episode may give us a lot of insights into how we can be a part of the support process and even be a part of maybe seeing those warning signs before the struggler does, because that is a little bit of the reality. Bob talks so well about it in the episode. We may be living as the addict or struggler in the eye of the storm and think things are fine when really the storm is happening all around us. And we do need people that love us, that care about us, and that have a little bit of insight to say, hey, I see something brewing here. Can we address this together? So I think the episode gives tons of insights, and I really think people enjoy this episode. Yeah.

Getting to have Bob in studio is always great. You are gonna enjoy this conversation. I think it's gonna be really helpful, especially for those in recovery groups. So let's get to it. Here is our conversation with Bob Vandermeer on the cyclone of addiction. Bob Vandermeer, welcome back in person to the studio. Glad to have you. Thanks.

Glad to be here.

People don't. I mean, I don't. I'm not gonna give people your address or anything, but you are local, and so it's nice when we can get you actually in studio. Even though I miss the Frida Kahlo picture and the guitar that you have and the nice setup you have in your home office.

But, I mean, this isn't too bad.

Yeah, thanks. Appreciate it. You're welcome. So much of my identity wrapped up in this. So, anyways, we are talking today about a tool that's in a lot of our resources, a way to understand our addictive pattern and factors that contribute to it. And so for some of our listeners, they'll know this language, and for others, it may be newer language if you haven't been through some of our resources in a number of years. And so let's just get into it. There was a tool Or a way to describe the addictive pattern or the cycle that Dr. Ted used originally in his book Pure Desire and was in a number of our resources called the noose of addiction. This has been updated to now be the cyclone of addiction. Why did we make that change? I just kind of want to maybe set that stage because there may be two different types of people who are listening to this. Who one is familiar with maybe one or the other. Why did we change it to the Cyclone? And why do we prefer this image of a cyclone over a noose?

Yeah, I mean, I was really, I don't know, set on the noose as, like, this is the best way to describe it. I mean, when my wife Rebecca and I lived in South America, you know, and we were traveling, speaking, and representing Pure Desire, we literally traveled with a noose like. Like in my luggage to the point that I remember at an airport one time.

That's an interesting conversation.

Yeah. So, like, I, you know, I had to have a visa to get into Bolivia.

And.

And at the airport, they're like, why is this. And it's like, well, no, we. We're like. We're speaking. We use this as an illustration thing. It's. Yeah, it's. Don't worry about it. Yeah, yeah. And then we would actually, like. I would have someone come down front and, like, hold the rope, and I'd put the noose around my neck, and I would lean forward.

Right.

Describing how addiction is basically tightening around us, and, you know, my face, like, turning red. And it was a very graphic illustration of the cycle of addiction and how it really, you know, grabs a hold of our life. And I think we realized it was too graphic of an illustration. Yeah. And obviously we wanted to be sensitive to, like, I mean, people that have had, like, a loss of a loved one. I mean, from suicide and things like that. Right. So it was. It was a thing for some people, it was like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. For other people, it's like, oh, this is super triggering. And, like, it's a little disturbing to watch you do that. And so. Yeah.

Yeah. And every illustration, you know, has breaking points and only works so well. And I think maybe a limit of the noose is. I love that imagery, too, of, like, the harder we pull, the tighter it gets. And you can't beat it just by trying to outwork it, because you're actually reinforcing the whole system. But I, like, in the change, we were able to really represent and what we're going to talk about so much in this episode. That addiction is fueled by all of these different pieces and components. And just like in a cyclone, there are elements that come together. We're going to talk about that, but I think it does give more opportunities to talk about the different elements. How it develops, how it strengthens versus the noose is kind of like it's that one idea, the harder you pull. And so I think there is still value for us to think about addiction as a noose for some people that really resonates to think through. Man, if I'm just trying to stop as hard as I can, doing my very best, but not identifying what the noose is, it's just going to get tighter and tighter and keep me trapped that way. So there's value in both metaphors. But I think as we're going to unpack today, the cyclone allows us to think about it maybe as a more holistic system that's operating in our life and unpack those different components.

Yeah. What's triggering?

Yeah, yeah, sure.

Yeah.

And I think that. I agree, Nick. There was part of it that. With the noose at the end that said that was important for churches to know and people to know that trying harder was not the solution. Right. And the noose really, really exemplified that. And I think I agree with. With what we use now with the Cyclone, we kind of. We can say the same thing, but maybe in even a more helpful way.

Yeah. So let's unpack that a little bit. Bob, why do we talk about sexual addiction and really any addiction for that matter, why do we talk about it like a system or a cycle and not just a behavior?

Yeah. I think that we have historically, and maybe in the church, even more the habit of simplifying this addictive behavior. Right. And we've simplified it in terms of, like, they're just sinners. Right. They just don't love Jesus enough or like they're just seeking pleasure. Right. And so I think from an external view, we tend to simplify it. And so being able to understand that it's not just that. It's not just that someone, you know, doesn't care about, like, their family or doesn't care about their ministry or there's a lot that goes into it.

Right.

And there's a lot of things that we don't see that happen behind the scenes. And if all we do or if we minimize what addiction is, we're not gonna ask the questions about what's behind the scenes. In the very insightful show Cobra Kai, at one point, Johnny, he's talking to someone they're like, oh, you're from that real rich neighborhood. And he said, yeah, there's a lot of beautiful houses with a lot of ugly things that happen inside. Right. And so for us as viewers of the original Karate Kid, like, we've got this very, like, myopic, singular view of this bad character, and he's just bad. But if we don't have the curiosity to ask some questions about what's behind it, we're missing the most important information. And so I think approaching addiction from this cycle or system idea means that we have questions to ask about what the parts of this addiction are. It's not so simple. There's background information that we probably don't know about that we really need to ask questions around.

What I like about the way that we process this as a cycle or a system is, I think it diminishes shame overall, if you understand it to be a cycle or a system. It's not that I am just this hypersexual person or I'm perverted or I'm unclean or dirty or can't stop these things. This gives language and experience to why we're doing what we're doing. And I think what that does is it not only helps us view ourselves a little bit more realistically of, oh, man, this happened, this happened, this happened. No wonder I make these decisions. But I think it also helps us understand that there are steps that brought us here, and we can then also take steps to get out of where we are. And so, again, I feel like having an imagery like this and an understanding of an addictive pattern like this helps people understand that it's not, I am this bad person. Shame on me that there are things even external to me that have helped contribute to this.

Yeah.

Yeah. It makes me think of the Bob Newhart video we've shown at a lot of conferences, the Stop it video. And you can go YouTube it if you haven't seen the show notes. But he plays a psychologist that just. His method is to say, stop it and just don't do that. And the reality, what makes it so funny is we all know if that would have worked, I wouldn't be here.

Right.

Like, I've tried to stop it. I. I've done what I know to do to amend this behavior. And yet it's still happening, which does explain there's more going on. And I can either try to look into that and figure out the system, figure out all the parts, what's driving it. The other illustration we've used is the Iceberg that you see, the tip is the behavior. The above the water is that behavior, but everything below it is actually much larger and needs to be dealt with. And so I think in talking about a cycle, a system, a pattern, we're just recognizing there are reasons why stopping it or attempting to stop it hasn't worked. And that actually we have found, gives people, I think, a lot of hope. Because I remember when I walked into counseling for the first time, my mindset was really, I don't know what you can tell me that I haven't tried. Because when it came to the behavior, I had tried everything to stop it. I was so convicted and guilt ridden about it. I was working really, really hard. And I was like, what else can I do? Well, I didn't know the system. I didn't see the pattern. I was blind to so many of those below the surface things. And that really, very early on started to feel hopeful, like, oh, there are things I haven't tried because I didn't even realize they were part of this system. And so when you start to look at it that way, it creates, I think, a lot of hope and energy around healing and recovery.

Yeah, yeah. I think for spouses, it can be a little scary though, too, at times, because if we start to say, well, there's a cycle, right? There's a system that's here, then it can feel like, oh, they're trying to explain it away or they're trying to justify it, right? They're not taking ownership of it. Like they're going to blame this on their parents or maybe on me or, you know, on their church or whatever it is. And so that even that idea of. Of acknowledging that there's stuff to learn about addiction can be. Can be really scary and unnerving for spouses. I do think you use the word hope, Nick. I think in the end, though, that it does bring hope. Because if it's just like there's something wrong with you, well, then the spouse can't see really how the addict got there. But if in this learning process of understanding addiction, both the addict and the spouse are able to see the parts of the system, then they're also able to see a plan of how to create health there.

Right.

And how to dissipate what we're gonna talk about, like in this cyclone. So on the front end, it can seem like, oh, no, they're just trying to find excuses. I think on the back end, they're able to see, oh, no, now that we understand it, we. We can do something about it, which.

We can get into that a little bit later. But like, as you maybe are engaging with this imagery, it's not the first thing that you come home and tell your spouse about, like, oh, it's just a cyclone. Like there's just all these things. And like. Yeah, but it is good to have as a framework as you're starting to step into recovery. So let's get into what are the elements. And I know that as we were developing it too, there's elements that contribute to a actual cyclone. And that's why we use this imagery for addiction. So what are the elements of the cyclone? Of addiction?

Yeah, So I think. And some of these. Maybe we'll start with the addictive part before we get into the analogy of the cyclone. Right. But the addictive part are the same parts that we had to describe the noose of addiction. Right. And so that is there's a root of addiction. And that root has to do with cultural things. It has to do with sexualized culture. It has to do with just pain and fear being a part of the world, all of this stuff. And so when we unpack that, though we go from these root issues then to as we're experiencing pain, basically, if there's someone there to help us understand pain and process through it, good stuff happens. If not, then we have these destructive core concepts or faulty mindset. And a lot of that is really the birth of shame for us. How we see ourselves, how we perceive the world around us. And it's at that point where if we, you know, we can do something good, helpful, or something not helpful. The not helpful then ends up leading into a destructive pattern where we get into the ritual of behavior. And to maintain that ritual of behavior, then we also have to have some basically cloak or minimization, right. Or denial. And so I think in our, in seven pillars, we call that a continued cover up. Right. Basically where we're shrouding the behavior, hiding it. And so I think those are the initial parts on the addictive side of what the cyclone is. Without getting into the analogy yet.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it was helpful for me in that system to see that there really was causation, that the root issues, the early childhood trauma, family of origin, things which none of us were born in a perfect home. So all of us have something when we weren't given help to process what we experienced or what we felt. It created the faulty mindset. And that faulty mindset of worthlessness or shame or there's something wrong with me. We had to figure out a way to deal with it. And I think that can also help someone minimize shame. To realize I've developed systems of coping in my life not because I'm bad or a wicked little sinner, but because I'm human. And my brain looks for ways to find comfort. And the reality is we often can find comfort in things that aren't helpful for us in the long run, but do work in the moment and leads us into that destructive pattern where I'm doing something that makes me feel good and solves the faulty mindset, but it's only for a moment. And then the outcome is all that need for cover up and now I'm feeling even worse. And to see that it's all connected, I think gives. Can give us hope too, to go back to that word. Because it's not like you've got all of these elements and you've got to fix all of them and do all this separate work on all these different things. It's really an interrelated system. And so when you start working as we'll get into too, in another question, you start working on some of those root issues, as so many have found in our story. Like it will affect something way down in that pattern that you're not even yet working on. And you might work on that piece later too, but because you started on something and it's all connected, it's like, oh, this is actually creating some health now. It's putting health in that system and it begins to unravel it. So I like to remember, and just like we'll talk about in the metaphor, it's all connected. And when these elements start to stack on one another, that's where we begin to see addiction.

Yeah.

Which again, I think is so helpful for us to understand that, you know, these bad things or these difficult things happened in my life that allowed or gave me the opportunity to believe a lie about myself, about the Lord, about other people, that then led into a pattern which is, you know, God gave us this ability that our brain keeps track of things that make us feel good when we don't feel good. And then of course, the shame that we feel because of that then turns into the coverup. And that shame and isolation perpetuates itself into more addictive patterns. And so it's that idea, and I know we'll get into it, but just the idea of it being this downward spiral all the time I think is so helpful to understand. And I think it's helpful to understand also this is a conversation I was having just Yesterday is. This is important information, too, for me as a parent, as I'm helping my children understand their behaviors and their patterns, is that, look, all this stuff is connected. It's not just all of a sudden you decided you want to make this bad decision or you want to numb out doing this thing. It's. You got to understand that. And my kids are seven and four. Like, I'm. You know, they're not going to understand this at a high level. And if they are, I should probably get them into an IBD school like right now. But I think it's.

Or into counseling.

Yeah, let's not go there.

But I think that this is just helpful information, even as a parent, to understand the pattern of behavior in general, not just addiction.

Yeah, yeah, sure. So, I mean, the anatomy of a cyclone. I think part of what's cool about us switching to the cyclone idea is that cyclones are called different things all over the world. Depends on what hemisphere you're in. Depends on whether you're in the tropics or not.

And so how much you like the.

Movie Twister or horror or isn't there a sequel coming out?

Twisters.

Twisters, yeah, yeah, Twister.

Big difference.

Yeah.

And so, like, in one part of the world, it's a hurricane. In another part of the world, it's a tropical storm or a typhoon or a tornado. Right. These are all different types of cyclones. I think one of the things I love about this analogy, then is that doesn't matter where you're at in the world, you might call it something different. Like, you might call it, like, cultural expectation. Right. Or you might call it like religious expectation or family of origin or. Because, I mean, different cultures have different things that feed into their experience.

But.

But no matter where you are in the world, there are certain atmospheric conditions that create a vulnerability or a potential for this storm to form. Right. And so the way a cyclone forms is that there, let's just say over the ocean is that there's warm water, and that warm water rises or, sorry, warm water heats the air. And so warm air rises, and as it rises, it meets cooler air. And that cooler air condenses the warm air. And so then it ends up, like, kind of spreading out and typically this cooler air up top.

Look at Bob the weatherman here.

This is great.

A weatherologist. That's what we're called, right? Yeah, yeah, Weatherologist.

That's.

Yeah, look it up. I'm sure it's there. And so there's this, like, system that's already up top where it's typically wind. So the wind is interacting with this warm air, rising, condensing. And then as that happens, the cooler air. Now there's a low pressure system. So the cooler air is dropping back down. But as that low pressure system is happening, it's sucking in more of the warm air, right? So it is creating the system. Whereas the warm air rises, meets with cooler air, up higher, condenses, falls down, More warm air gets sucked in. And whether. If you're in the northern hemisphere, it starts to spin counterclockwise. If you're in the southern hemisphere, it starts to spin clockwise.

Just like how the toilets flush, Right?

Just like how the.

Right.

And that all has to do with the rotation of the earth.

So the next time you flush your toilet, think about.

Think about addiction. Yes. But then as this continues and continues to build, right? There it is. The system itself is starting from the bottom, and it's spinning upward around the eye and then spins outward, and then at the same time, bringing in cool air into that eye. And so what's, you know, the eye. You've heard this, the phrase the eye of a storm, right in the middle of that eye, it's actually really calm, and there's no rain. There's no precipitation. It's cooler air. It's not turbulent. And so I think in this big system, then most of us as addicts, we hang out kind of in that eye, right? We don't feel necessarily all of the turbulence that our addiction is creating.

What's everybody so worried about?

Exactly. And at the same time, there's this big cloud cover that's forming above this whole storm system that is really shrouding all of the inner workings of this system. Right? We can see the whole thing moving. And so I kind of liken that warm air to shame, that a cyclone can't start without warm air. And so as far as, like, the root of addiction and the destructive mindset, that's the warm air that's there. And as soon as it starts to interact with this other external turbulence, you could say this atmospheric condition, this external turbulence, then it creates this whole system, right? And so let's just say, like, shame is there. But we. A lot of times with addicts, we hear them say, like, well, I acted out because work was super stressful, right? Or I acted out because, you know, this is going on in my marriage or my finances or whatever. And it's kind of like their shame is interacting with this atmospheric condition of external problems, of stress, right. Of turbulence. They don't see how those Two things are acting together, and so it creates this whole system that picks up speed and steam and destruction and so on. So it's a really cool analogy, and it works really, really well.

Yeah, yeah. And I like how if those conditions persist, the storm just continues to build in power and speed. And. Yeah, I think that's the experience that so many people in addiction have had. It's like, it doesn't just leave me there. It doesn't just hang out the same. It continues to increase in its intensity and in the damage it's creating unless I do something to address the conditions. And that's, you know, we want to start to unpack a few of those. And we've alluded to the starting point a little bit, but where. Where does that cyclone start and what do we do in that area to start lessening the storm? Yeah, we can put it that way.

Yeah. In that analogy. Right. It starts with warm air, AKA shame and hurricanes, typhoons, cyclones, they lose the power to perpetuate the system once they move over land. And so once they are grounded, you could say the shame, AKA the warm air, is removed and they don't have the ability to perpetuate.

And.

And so, like, in this analogy for addiction, shame is where it starts. But becoming grounded, you could say, in relationship with, like, with God, with your recovery community, becoming grounded in your identity actually removes the shame so that the system falls apart. Like, the system doesn't have the thing that it needs to be fueled by anymore. And so the, you know, the cyclone starts with shame and. And it ends with the removal of shame. And, man, that's like, that's what we do in recovery, right? Yeah.

I continue to think that the greatest resource we have in the recovery journey is relationship with other people. Like, intimate, vulnerable, honest relationship with other people. So I love that that's what you're saying is really breaking shame. And that was my experience in group. I remember the first group I had. I've said this so many times that when I finally told my story, all of the details and saw the acceptance and the me toos that I got around the table, that was when shame finally started to break for me. And that's when that addictive pattern started to stop. The cyclone wasn't gonna keep perpetuating itself, but I had to keep pushing myself into relationship. I couldn't just do that one time and then back out. Has to be this ongoing thing because, you know, again, to use some of the language you're using in order for me to live a life without the Cyclone of addiction. I need to make sure that the right atmospheric conditions are in place for me to not perpetuate that cycle.

Again, I'm thinking about a quote, and I think it's either GK Chesterton or CS Lewis, but they write about, if you have a complex math problem and you're getting the wrong answer, you can't just keep trying to work the end and get the right answer. You have to go all the way back and figure out where did it first begin to go wrong and rework the whole problem forward from there. And when I think of shame, to me, that's the idea. We've got to go back and find where did that shame message begin? And where was it maybe in my family of origin or in a sexualized culture or in some kind of trauma that happened to me outside of my family of origin that began to plant inside of me these messages of worthlessness, being alone, not measuring up, being rejected, being unwanted. Because if we see that, we can begin to rework the problem moving forward. And that's where people have asked me, like, where is God in this process? Because I believed in God, or I've had faith in God the whole time. Well, we may have it currently, but we might find that in those initial places, we've never really been given the language or the context, the opportunity to bring our faith into that moment, to invite God back into that moment to see, where were you at? What message did I need to hear from you that maybe I didn't get from a parent figure or from others in my life at that time? And as that piece of us begins to heal, it's again, that metaphor of we're starting to work the healing forward throughout the system and shame is being dealt with. And so I think for some listeners, when they hear shame, they may just think, well, I feel like I've understood. Yeah, I feel bad, and I'm trying to reject that, or I'm trying to let go of that shame. Like, how do I do that? Well, that's where a lot of our process and for those that have done group and counseling, know this, we're always going back. And I remember early in my counseling, I was like, why are we going back there again? Why are we always talking about this? Just help me fix now. And I think that was the recognition of, well, to fix now, we have to go back to where it started. And even if we don't remember exactly, we can start to paint that picture and then really deal with shame effectively, I think.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, those atmospheric Conditions, like, in a sense, they will never go away. Right. Like, the potential for a storm to form is always there. And, yeah, our ability to continue to keep going back. Right. To address that stuff that might be where that. Where the storm is starting for us. And so, like, we're going to. It doesn't matter how long we're in recovery, we're going to continue to uncover nuances of our shame, of our past. Right. That's coming up.

And.

And if we don't have the perspective to continue to do that, then we're leaving ourselves vulnerable.

I was thinking about that for this episode, about the value of counseling and doing group with others, because there are people whose job it is to track storms, and they've learned what to look for, and they can predict, not months ahead, but they can predict a few days ahead of time. They're saying, hey, a hurricane is forming and we know the path and we know that the conditions are right, and we're starting to help people prepare for it. And in my mind, that's what a counselor does. That's what can happen in group is others that have been trained to look for those conditions in our lives can say, there's a storm brewing, or here's all the elements. And maybe you haven't seen them, but we've learned to identify them. And rather than continuing in that path, we can help go in a different direction if you're willing to take that input. So I think, again, just the value of counseling. As someone who's been trained to identify the conditions and understand how this all.

Works, I also think it's important to say that you can't undo what happened in your past, but you can process what happened in your past, and that that's the power of change can come through that process. Unfortunately, we can't go back and change at all.

Yeah, that is a bummer.

Yeah. Yeah. Even with that meteorologist, which I viewers, I know that it's a meteorologist, not a weatherologist.

Is camera one, camera two, weather guessers.

Oh, weather guessers. Yeah. A lot of times that's the view that the perspective we have is like, oh, come on. Like, you know, to quote Bob Dylan, I don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. Like, but. And like, there are things happening there that a meteorologist understands with weather. And a counselor, like, you know, a trained clinician, like, can help you understand how it. Like, how that formed. You can say, like, well, yeah, I know that, you know, my life's falling apart. I don't need someone to tell me that. But that's not. That's not what's really happening. Like, yeah, there's more going on behind that.

So cyclones are destructive. And to your point that these exist everywhere in the world, we know they're destructive. How is this imagery or this idea important in understanding the destruction of a cyclone of addiction?

Yeah, the addict, like we said, is living in the eye of the storm. Right. They're not experiencing all of the destruction that's swirling around them. It's denial, delusion, blame right there. And so they're not seeing the way that it's devastating relationships. Devastating. Right. Their. Their spiritual life, their internal emotions. Right. And so in recovery, we refer to this as negative consequences. And. And so I think that it's applicable here to talk about how destructive it is. Because, man, a lot of times you can't see the destruction until the storm has passed. And so, you know, people that get into recovery, part of their recovery process is, okay, now that they're trying to not act out anymore, now that they're addressing the behavior, they actually have the ability to see the destruction. Right. This swath of destruction that has been a part of their experience. And, you know, that destruction isn't the same for everybody. Right. Like, so a tornado versus a hurricane, the actual size of the storm is much. Is much different, but destruction still exists. And again, I think that it's. We can't see it a lot of times as an addict until the storm has passed. And now we're kind of like left with. Facing these negative consequences. And it's not just the people in your home, but it's like, man, the storm's been a brewing for a long time. And part of the recovery process is the shock. We talked about this in those five stages of emotional stages of recovery. Right. But there's the shock and the grief of what it means. And now also people that have been wounded by this need care. Homes need to be rebuilt, lives need to be rebuilt. And that can't be secondary to the addict's experience.

Well, a lot of addiction, we talk about it being of that cyclical nature that it comes and goes. There's good times and there's rough times where we relapse. We go back into our addiction, and it's a little bit like the imagery of someone living, you know, in tornado alley in Kansas or Oklahoma, and a devastating storm came through. And they're like, well, thank God that was the last one. We never have to worry about that again. And yet they haven't changed conditions like, they don't move their home or go somewhere else. And, like, the likelihood if you're living in tornado alley is you're probably going to see another one. And I think in addiction, there needs to be that awareness of, I'm in a cycle and these storms are going to keep coming, and if I'm willing to look around and see the damage it caused, then I should open my eyes to say, if nothing changes, another one's going to come and it's going to cause more pain and there's going to be more to deal with. I can't just put my head in the sand, use another metaphor, and believe that was the last one, unless I'm actually looking to repair the damage and change the conditions so that it doesn't just keep happening.

Yeah.

A question I have is, and this isn't on our list, but just as you guys have been sharing someone who enters the recovery journey, the cyclone starts to dissipate a little bit and they can finally see the damage. I know for me, seeing some of those consequences as an addict is something that felt like it wanted to reinforce me going back into that pattern again because I don't want to have to face the damage I've caused. What kind of recommendation or perspective would we offer to someone as they're starting this journey? They start to see that how do we see, acknowledge, and own the fact that we caused this damage without that kicking us back into that addictive pattern?

Yeah. I was just having this conversation yesterday with a client that they've experienced some change in their marriage. Right. They've been addressing these issues. They have some new tools and skills that they've been implementing. So it's kind of like simultaneously they're implementing this new stuff, and they're facing, you know, thoughts, feelings, and memories that they've been avoiding their whole life. And some of those thoughts, feelings, and memories is shame. And so it's like, it's like they're doing all this hard work, but they're also feeling things they've never felt before. Right. And so I think trying to not.

Go back to the old fear. Right?

Yeah. And so it's like that root or that cause of shame is there, and it's actually they're feeling it more than they've ever felt it before. But I think some things, like being in group where you've got shared experience. Right. Where you've got people that, like, you bring it to group and they're not like, oh, my gosh, like, you're a disgusting human being. They're like, hey, man, thank you so much for sharing that. Right. Or for a betrayed spouse, thank you so much for being honest about your pain. Having that shared experience really helps to minimize the effects of shame and dissipate that. But also, you know, having a counselor or clinician that can help you. Yeah.

Navigate through that stuff and the expectations that are set of. We tried to say to people in group, this may get worse on an emotional level before it gets better and you are going to face. I remember for me, it was facing a lot of anger that I had very successfully shoved down and avoided was like, so I'm not an angry person. Until I started grouping, I was like, man, I'm an angry person because I was unwilling to face it. And I think if we know that going into group or into this experience, this will be one of the hardest things I've ever done, if not the hardest, because of just what you said, Bob. The things I'm avoiding, the things I haven't dealt with change. And recovery means turning and facing all that. And that will create growth that will be, you know, life changing, but not without cost, not without facing it. And yet if we expect that going in, like, I'm willing to do that work, I'm willing to face it and not run away, then I think when that happens, we can say, oh, they warned me about this, and here it is. Okay, I'm going to stand and face it, believing that there's good that comes on the other side.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the cyclone analogy, the existence of warm air doesn't create a cyclone. It's the warm air interacting with these other atmospheric, high altitude.

Right.

Turbulent circumstances. And so I think in recovery, the existence of shame doesn't necessarily mean a perpetuation of the destructive behavior. But if we allow our shame to interact in that way with just the reality of our existence. Right. With the challenges in our marriage or at our job or as a parent or with our family. If we allow that shame to be something that then enters into those relationships, yeah, sure, we're going to face more storms that are being built. But if we're able to see the shame, address the shame, and not let it impact or interact with those other things, then. Then we can stop that storm from being formed.

Yeah. So do you think, Bob, the cyclone of addiction applies primarily to sexual addiction? Or can anyone who's trapped in an unwanted behavior or living with someone or trying to help someone that's stuck in addiction? Does this metaphor work across a spectrum of behaviors?

I think this metaphor works 100% for every human being on the planet, in the sense that the root of addiction and destructive core concepts are part of everyone's experience.

Right.

Like, and shame is part of everyone's experience. It's what we've learned to do with that. And so I think that those first two parts of this, the root of addiction and that destructive mindset or faulty mindset, that's every human's experience. And then what we do with that. Right. At pure desire, we have a pain diagram where we. Where we talk about pain is ubiquitous. But do we work through that pain and process it? And if so, that leads to better relationship, or do we work to medicate or anesthetize that pain, and that leads to disconnection? And so I think that that's the big, like, the kind of the breaking point for people is what are they doing with it? And if they don't do something healthy with it, then, yeah, I think this applies to every addiction.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you don't think that this is the human experience, just go to Genesis 3. I mean, it's from the beginning, page three of the Bible. This is the pattern, is that we do something wrong, something bad happens, we make a decision and we hide. That's what we do. And so, yeah, I think all of these factors exist in our life to some degree. I mean, you talked about it earlier that, you know, one person's traumatic experience might seem really small compared to another person's traumatic experience, but that's still something that created those root issues which then led into the faulty mindset. And so, yeah, I think that we need to make sure that everyone knows. It could be with food, alcohol, video games, Netflix, whatever it may be. It could even be running or fitness or whatever. Church, like your career. Yeah, it could be anything that you use as a pattern to numb out from the pain and difficulty you've experienced in life, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing, which over time creates destruction in your life.

Yeah.

In the Seven Pillars of Freedom, Dr. Ted says that he has never had a client come into his office and overestimate the level of pain and trauma in their life. I don't know if you'd say the same thing, Bob. I'm guessing you would. But I remember that really spoke to me of, like, okay, all of us do this. Our brain works with us to downplay and minimize the trauma or pain we've experienced in life. Because, I mean, let's face it, that would not be a fun way to live. If every day, everywhere we went, we just like had this constant awareness of things that had hurt us, things that had been traumatic. Like that would be a rough way to live. And so you can see even some of the beauty of God's design. I think in that creation of I'm going to help create a part of your brain that can kind of shelter you from that constant awareness. But then that becomes part of what keeps us stuck is we don't see it unless we really stop and look at it and have other people that can help us go there. So that's the other piece that makes me feel like this is common across not just sexual addiction, but all unwanted behaviors at a root. We have that part of our brain that's trying to keep us safe from the pain and trauma we felt, but it's the very thing keeping us locked in the pattern.

Yeah. And I love that you brought up Genesis 3, because that pain and suffering and sorrow is part of the human existence until Revelation 21.

Right.

Where there's no more pain, tears, sorrow, you know, in heaven, whatever. We're in between those two. Right. So everyone is experiencing pain, everyone is experiencing trauma, and everyone is experiencing fear. It's just what are we doing with it? Yeah.

So we might have already answered this question, but just to make sure that we've actually covered. Seems like aspects of the cyclone of addiction are inevitable for everybody. Is that the case? Is it a foregone conclusion or are there ways that we can avoid the cyclone of addiction in our life?

I think that we can't avoid the elements of the cyclone, but we can avoid them interacting to create a storm.

Right.

Everyone feels shame. It's not insignificant or coincidence that Jesus bore our shame on the cross. There's a reason why that is important. Because we all experience less than ideal feelings and beliefs about ourself. So that's true for everyone. Everyone also experiences difficulty in the world around them. Right. We talk about with clients in our very first session. Our goal is not that at the end of the year long clinical program that your life is going to be stress free. Like we can't do anything about that. Your car will still break down in this world.

You will have trouble.

Yes. Yeah. And so like we're not, we're not trying to create a life that's stress free. We're just trying to keep it so that. So that these ideas about ourself don't interact with just the pain of life in general to create this system. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, and that's where the metaphor of the cyclone I Think breaks down a little bit, because when we see, you know, reports coming, there's a hurricane forming over the ocean, or, you know, reports in Kansas, there's a huge tornado system coming through. There is not a lot we can currently do in our society to avert or change those conditions. And I know we're trying, like, they're coming up with methods to drop things in the clouds and. And all of it to try to spare human lives and save from destruction, which is great, but as far as I'm aware, we. We don't really have the ability to control the weather. The difference in our cyclone of addiction is we can begin to identify these elements, and we're not powerless.

Yeah.

Now, we might have felt powerless to the addict stuck in it, but as we begin to identify them, we can reach out for help. We can have people that support us. We can learn healthier guardrails. We can develop a pattern of, oh, I'm feeling that shame response that I've always felt in my life because of some early circumstances. But I am learning rather than running to food, porn, work, whatever, now I go to that trusted friend, or I engage in my hobby, or I. I go and get some exercise. I do something that helps me face and process the shame in a better way. So we're identifying the elements, then going, oh, I see a storm coming. I can do something about it. And that's different than our society. So that's where I feel like, man, we've got to remember there's value in awareness, but that doesn't make us powerless to do anything about it. We use the awareness to then reach out for help and practice those healthy things.

And that's the thing. Recovery is not something you could passively do. There is so much intentionality that has to be in place in order for you to heal and to, you know. And I think a lot of us have experienced this that, you know, as you guys are talking, that maybe we have this addiction that we start the recovery journey and we get freedom, sobriety, we're actually living in sexual health. Then it starts to, you know, impact other areas of our life. We start to get healthy. But then a big storm comes, and it's like, oh, crap, I wasn't prepared for this. And not that my children are a storm, but, like, sort of they came into my life, and it's like, I'm experiencing things emotionally and physically at a level I've never experienced before. So the actual backdrop of my recovery journey is changing, and I have to adapt to it, and I can't just sit on my hands and expect that recovery is just going to go in cruise control. It has to be this active thing where. And I love. Nick, you've used language like this, but tools like the three circles tool or our recovery action plan, that you're revisiting those tools again and again because your life is changing again. You can't sit on your hands and go on cruise control and recovery. You have to be vigilant and intentional if you want to make sure that the cyclone of addiction doesn't pop up again.

Yeah, yeah.

So, Bob, speak maybe specifically to people that are in group, leading a group, you know, and they're using a lot of the other recovery tools. How might the cyclone of addiction and awareness of that, maybe keeping it in mind, how could that interact with the other tools and be helpful as part of our recovery experience?

Yeah, I think you guys both just kind of spoke to a little bit of it, right? That there are signs, right? There's. You can see a storm, like, brewing. And so we have these barometers, right? And thermometers and other ometers. Otherometers, yeah. Another ometer is your spouse, right. We have these things that. These tools where we can. We can first learn to identify what the parts of those storms are for us. Right? And so the three circles is phenomenal for that, right? The middle circle of identifying these areas that create vulnerability, like, we can identify those, and if we're not just identifying, but then we can create structure around them, right? Like, we can say that if, you know, if I'm, for instance, if that day I need to go to a place that creates some vulnerability for me in addictive behavior, then I can check in with somebody, right? Like, I can see that there's a potential for. For relapse or for acting out, and I can reach out to somebody. I can also run through the faster scale for myself, right? So. So three circles is a tool that fits into this because you're identifying factors that create a storm. The faster scale is a way for you to identify some of those internal factors of a storm. But also having, like, an escape plan, right? Like people that live in tornado alley, like, they have a plan. People that live in a place where earthquakes are, you know, regular, they have a plan. If there's a tsunami potential, they have a plan, right? So they also. It's like if these factors start to build, then what do I do in response to that? And then also a recovery action plan, right. For consequences logical and natural, that if that storm does end up Forming and blows through town. Like, what do you do to deal with those consequences? How do you create safety for the people around you and for yourself? Right. But not think of it not just to cower in a storm shelter, but so that after the storm blows by that they can go on to living a fruitful life.

How will we rebuild?

Yeah.

And that's what you're talking about. It seems like there are multiple categories. There are categories of, like, tools I can use currently, how I'm doing, but then also these plans of action. If something happens, I know what I need to do. Like, you know, in places like tornado alley, they still do at school, they'll do trainings. Like, literally do we. You know, we were just. We were in Texas, and we went over to a school, and it was like this really cool experience for us or whatever. And they had this, like, shelter. And it's like multiple times a year we go over here. You know, it's like, oh, wow. Like, that's kind of cool. Like, yeah, people could do that. We don't do that here, as far.

As I understand in Oregon.

But one of the things that I also thought was that the matrix of addiction is another tool that maybe can help us understand the destructive pattern. Because I can see, like, if I start to do these behaviors, this starts my addictive pattern of acting out. And so I thought that that was maybe the only other thing that I would add is just the matrix of addiction could be a nice framework to help you understand specifically that destructive pattern in the cyclone.

Yeah, yeah. And maybe even with that, too, just, you know, thinking out loud that understanding our arousal template. Right. And with that, like, some of that is us kind of hiding in the eye of the storm. Right. That there's a storm going on around us, but we're hiding. We're trying to find safety in the middle of that instead of addressing the shame that's perpetuating it. Right. So instead of that, like, we. We find behaviors to help us just not feel the fear or the pain that's involved in that particular moment of our life.

Yet to me, the faster scale is. It's where it becomes very specific to us. You know, when we go through our faster scale, we maybe initially, it's a little bit of a clean slate. Like, we're reading all the words. We're trying to understand everything. But over time, I believe we start to see some patterns that are specific to us. And there should be some words that we circle or categories that become for us particular warning, you know, sirens or, you know, it's like the, the storm sirens that, hey, it's coming. Be ready, that then I can start to pay attention to and go, oh, okay, something's going on. And for me, one of those is when anger begins to come out. And I don't mean like, you know, blowing up at people, but when I get a real critical edge to my kids or I kind of snap at them or, you know, in the car, someone I think is being a bad driver and what pops to my mind is like swear language and wanting to yell. I mean, I'm always bothered by bad drivers, but I can usually just be like, okay, buddy, you know, have your way. But other days when it's like, man, something's firing up, I'm learning that, oh, that's a part of something deeper is going on. And if I can either try to start paying attention to it and figure out what it is, because that's what I've learned in my pattern, often I can get to that point without very good self awareness, but that just becomes a pretty identifiable behavior that cues me to say, oh, something's going on here, and I can either pay attention to it and work on it or just keep plowing through and I'm going to end up in exhaustion and then that's going to make unhealthy old choices much more possible. So I would just say for everyone, as you think about the conditions that create a cyclone in your life, that faster scale is where you begin to see, okay, here's some of my early warning signals. And if I learn to see them like that, I can then, yeah, pay attention to them and make that adjustment early to choose health in that moment, rather than allowing it just to continue to form and form until I'm in the middle of another storm.

Yep. Yeah, yeah.

This framework, because really, that's what it is. This imagery is a framework to understand the addictive pattern that we all carry. And I think that I know that this conversation is going to be helpful for people. And, you know, I can even see this as if you're going through group and have any, you know, confusion around the cyclone, like, use this episode as a tool because we could probably talk about this for hours, different, you know, levels and aspects to it. But I think this is a really helpful tool because it helps us see a much more holistic understanding of what addiction is, why we get to where we are. And honestly, it gives us, you know, hope. As Nick, you talked about it a number of times, that there's a plan that we can, you know, move forward with. And we gave a number of different things Group counseling. Whether it's pure desire groups or counseling, or if you're with therapist, but some form of recovery work is definitely needed in order to break the addictive cycle. Bob, we love you. We love having you in person. And dude, it just. I continue to be so grateful for the competency you have and the experience as a clinician because you can speak to things from a different context that neither of us have been able to. So I really appreciate you man.

Thanks.

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