362 - Staying Healthy For The Summer

Foreign. Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from porn. Welcome to Summer. I am your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 362 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

There she goes. There she goes again. Got an echo over there for the producer.

You know, some shows. Sorry to take it off of you, but some shows have mics with their producers, so they are a part of it.

I think that would be a questionable decision on our part.

I would agree.

Okay. I don't.

I mean, I know the song, but I don't know the song and I don't know your connection, so please explain.

I cannot think of the.

You're looking it up right now.

I was thinking, what I do know is it was done by a Christian group that crossed over and crossover group. Yeah, I did that song. But the connection, you know, today we're talking about being healthy over the summer and there is a little bit of this that it's like there's repetition to what happens to us in the summer. Right. Like we go to some of the same places, the same family trips, the same family get togethers, and we run into difficult situations, whether it's because there's triggering stuff that comes up or there's emotional landmines that come up. And all of it can be part of the old pattern if we've been stuck in sexual addiction or struggles with pornography. And so it's looking at what's going to come up again and what's going to happen that when I'm in the moment, it's like, this happens every summer or why am I always letting myself get in this situation that we can have a lot more wisdom about. We can think ahead and have a plan as we talk about today and really make this a great summer and one where there's a lot of health and growth and recovery and not just get back into that same pattern where there it goes again and I'm back in that same pattern. So I hope people really get a ton out of what we had to say. We brought in our friend Mike, who had some suggestions, and I think it was a really, really important conversation for any of us that have been down this road.

Totally. And Mike was the right guy because he doesn't take really any time off. He even said it in the episode from doing group. And so he has a good perspective on it. So let's just get into it. Our conversation with Mike Maxwell talking about staying healthy for the summer. Mike Maxwell, welcome back, my friend.

Thank you. Glad to be here. I knew that something was gonna happen because I dribbled tacos down my shirt at lunch. So I was like, you guys probably see that.

Perfect.

No, it's totally fine. That's why it's darker in here. For those viewing at home. No. So it is funny because we kind of pivoted and was like, last minute, like, hey, can you jump in with us today? And you said, yes. So we really appreciate that this week is officially the first week of summer, and that is another term could be trigger season. I know there's a couple of trigger seasons if you listen to this show, but trigger season definitely for summer. And there's a lot about summer, the heat and more that really can bring out triggers or even temptations during this season. And those temptations are to go back to unwanted sexual behaviors. And so we want to talk about, as we're getting into the summer months, what it could look like to stay healthy, because it's something that we all, I think, really want to do. So let's just start with this both of you guys opinion. Why is summer so triggering? Why can it be so difficult to stay healthy during these months?

Well, I'll answer for myself is when the sun comes out, the clothes come off, and there's a lot of skin. And, yeah, you have. It just seems like you have a lot less control over what we see. You know, we can kind of control the things we see in the winter when we have accountability software and those kinds of things in the summer, you know, there's just a lot of skin everywhere you go.

Yeah, I know. As I was thinking about this topic in my, you know, struggles, the challenge of summer was how many situations that would come up where you would feel like there was almost permission to look or to lust, because, like, I wasn't searching for that. But we're at the lake with the kids, and there it is. Or I'm just, you know, I'm out for a walk, and that person's not dressed appropriately. It's like that excuse system in our brains, I think, can kick in because we can say, well, I wasn't seeking that out, but there it was in front of me. And. And if we're not really paying attention to our guardrails or what's healthy for our thinking and our patterns, we can give ourselves permission to enter into situations that can be very triggering or they can create that imagery in our minds that well beyond that moment, we're still carrying it with us. And what I have found for myself and I think so many other men and women that struggle with visual temptation, if we could put it that way, is it's not even just what we see in the moment. It's how the moments start to add up and kind of put us into this mental or emotional loop where we. We kind of keep adding fuel to the fire, if you will. And maybe after a series of those kind of moments or days, we can find ourselves really tempted towards acting out or going to places we've promised not to go back to.

Another thing, too, that we've talked a number of times on the show about is that the summer we tend to have vacation. Our schedule is less tight. It's not as regimented, and that can be a challenge. And again, speaking for myself, like, as. As we're doing, I need to have, like, a disciplined schedule. I need to have a regimen. I need to have rhythms and habits that I'm consistently doing in order to maintain health. And the summer can throw curveballs in that. And it could be anything from, like, to your point, Mike, about, like, more skin. It could be like, hey, someone just invited us to go on the boat tonight. Do you want to go do it? And so I might have, like, maintained my regular rhythm throughout the day. Like, oh, this evening I'm going to be in a situation I'm not normally in, where maybe there is more skin, or I am an environment where maybe the shared values are not there, you know, from everybody that's out on the river or whatever. And so I think that that's another aspect, too, is that we have to be aware that the lack of schedule can create some of this issue for us, too.

I resonate with that quite a bit. I'm a very kind of compartmentalized guy. I like my routine, my rhythms, my. Just my schedule. And it can be a trigger for me when I get outside of that. And I don't have that. The time or schedule boundaries that I normally have.

Yeah. And I think on top of that, it's not just maybe the visual draw or temptations we might face, but it is like we've discussed on some of our holiday episodes, we may be around people that are part of being triggering, even because of past pain or trauma. So taking vacations where we're traveling and we're around family or in laws, even neighborhood gatherings and barbecues where we're seeing people that maybe have been part of a challenge for us in the past, whether because they are a triggering person Visually or because they trigger emotional pain or woundedness in us. And acting out has been part of how we've responded to that in the past. And so I think very much that recovery tends to be about having healthy rhythms and routines and patterns. And summer can just throw all of that out of whack. And if we're not thoughtful to kind of look ahead, to think ahead, to plan ahead, to to be prepared, we really could be ripe to fail. Not because we tried to it, just because we weren't self aware enough to realize some challenging situations were going to be coming our way.

Yep, absolutely.

I would have to say in my recovery journey, I've noticed that, you know, you initially get some traction on certain things that really trip you up. But there are other patterns that have taken me years to recognize. And usually over the summer when those schedules aren't as tight.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what are some of the things that in our experience we would suggest being more aware of going into the summer or even things we might be need to make a plan to avoid as part of our summer health plan?

I mean, you're talking about it like making a plan is something that we need to be aware of, that if we know that we're going to spontaneously end up in opportunities or situations where there's more skin or you're around people that are potentially triggering, or you don't feel like you have control over the situation, then you need to make a plan for that. And I know it can seem kind of weird, but like my wife is really big on this, that she'll put basically like a kit in our car. One of her biggest fears. She's gonna hate me for saying this, but one of our biggest fears is our kids throwing up. She just like, it just throws her for an absolute loop. We literally have puke stations in our cars, like ready for that situation. You're preparing for the worst. This is what's so great. My wife's a six on the enneagram, so this is like her superp. But it's something that I think that we can even expand into recovery. Like what are things that I can control in this situation if I'm put into a situation that, you know, dysregulates me or triggers me or is tempting. What are things that I have already pre planned that I'm taking into it that are going to help me? And I think that having that framework and being aware of that, I think that sets us up for success.

That's so good. Yeah. As I was thinking about this question There are several triggers that I think. They're probably not absolutely specific to me, but they're specific to my sexual template. And one of those is when I go downtown in the summer, on the summer evenings, and I hear the club music, because that was part of my past. My body reacts even though my brain is not engaging. But it's interesting to notice my body will react even though my brain is going, you don't want that anymore.

So you'd say like, your mind is telling you no, but your body is.

Telling you, yeah, well, my mind is even like, I don't want that. I don't want it. You know, that's not part of my life anymore. But my body's still reacting and going. I immediately remember the specific scenarios that I used to engage in.

And I think that's one of the values in having this discussion, is because what can happen when we've been struggling in areas like this is our brain can literally begin releasing those neurochemicals, those feel good hormones and chemicals, before we've even, like, chosen to.

Yeah.

So it's not like we made a choice to go and get triggered or find that we're starting to be ramped up into an arousal state. Our brain, because of past choices, environments, scenarios, might experience something, and it just starts to kick in that system, which is what we have to be aware of. It's why we have to practice wisdom and. And to know that when that happens, to not shame ourselves. And, oh, how could I still want those things or desire them? It may just be your body and brain are still relearning different ways to respond to stimuli. And because you've had the past pattern that stimuli is created. And some of that's how God designed our bodies to work and our brains to work. We don't have to think about it. And so that, I think, emphasizes why we do have to think about a plan for health. Because we don't have to think about unhealthy things to start going down that road. Our brain and body may have been programmed by those past choices. And so that's when I thought of this question. I think what I would suggest about avoiding is there's a reason we've put together guardrails that all of us should have crafted in our story, a list of behaviors, environments, things that we've just decided for us because of our pattern, because of the specific ways that we've acted out in the past we've chosen. I have to avoid that. And what I think the temptation can be in the summer when we're invited to that family barbecue or we're on that trip, it's like, well, we're on vacation. And so now, like the number of drinks that I choose to have, I disregard or the kind of media that I'm going to engage in. I pay no attention to having parameters around my social media. It's like, well, I'm on vacation and I'm posting pictures on Facebook. And so now, even though I agreed that I only go on Facebook when I'm sitting with my family, now I'm on it all day and I'm checking updates. I think that's where we get into trouble when we start to think of summer different and we let all of our healthy rules and the patterns that we develop, we kind of throw them out the window because, well, it's. It's summer or it's that one special thing. And I would just say have a special time. You can have special things. But guardrails are guardrails for a reason. And we don't change the guardrails unless other people in our life that know our story, like group members or a spouse or a family member that are part of our journey, have agreed this is an appropriate guardrail to change or make a modification to. Otherwise, you know, whether I'm in my same weekly routine that I do every week or I'm on a trip in another state, my guardrails stay the same. And I think if we've got those in front of us, it just gives us a lot more wisdom and self awareness walking into those situations than just thinking, oh, well, I've changed and I've grown a lot, so I won't have those same temptations. Going back to what I said at the beginning, we may have grown a ton. You may have been experiencing incredible change and yet your brain can still be triggered back into some of those dopamine releases. And that doesn't mean you're not changing. It just means your body and brain have a little leg time before they catch up with some of the health you're walking in.

Yep.

Yeah.

Well, that was great segue because the next question is what are some of the guardrails that we should or could use during this season?

Yeah, I think some of the ones that come to mind for me, and these aren't necessarily specific to summer, but are just some of the guardrails that, that I'm walking in is, you know, limiting my use of social media because I. And not using that when I'm in isolation or alone because it is a Time when people are posting their family trips and their beach photos. And that can just be a place where there's more triggering photos than you want to be exposed to or be watching. I've, you know, you guys know one of my activities of choice is to run. And I'm very conscientious that I'm not just out running alone. Buy places like beachfronts and you know, where it's most likely that others may be, you know, in, in less clothing because that's just situations I want to avoid. I, I think too about having the importance of having a travel plan. And I know, especially in the first couple of years of our recovery, this was key for me because some of those relapse patterns had been related to time off family trips where there would be that lack of boundaries, the lack of some of those routines, you know, being maybe in other people's homes or hotels where guards and protections that you've put in place on your TV at home or your computer aren't necessarily there. And so I would have written up a few things in that season, like here are things I've committed to and because my wife and I had been through full disclosure because she knew all of my stuff, she was aware of them and for us to have a game plan going in, how to navigate them really helped. So I think that's something to consider if you've walked some of this road with your spouse and they know the areas that are problem for you to pre trip kind of talk through. Okay, here's a couple of special things that hey, when we're at home, I don't have to worry about. But when we're at the lake house or your in laws or this friend's place, these are going to be important for me to follow. And I just want to let you know ahead of time how I'm planning to handle these things. And then that can kind of help you feel like a team heading into those situations.

Yeah, I think, you know, Mike, you were talking about like, you know, your body responding to going downtown and hearing the music and you know, I know I've had situations too where like, you know, coming out of spring, like track meets and things like that have been like really triggering to me in the past. I think that writing that stuff out is a form of a guardrail is saying I'm not going to go to these things. And I also think it's important too, depending on where you are in your recovery and in your marriage, like including your spouse or including your partner in that definitely including your group members. But I really do think something that even from the last question that keeps coming to mind is just like the word no is an okay response to getting an invitation to go somewhere or even if it's going to a concert that you know is going to be outside and there's going to be a lot of inappropriate clothing and the music isn't necessarily setting the scene or the mood that, you know, you feel safe in. Like, it's okay to say no. And I think that that's a tool that we can wield and oftentimes we have this fear of missing out or missing an experience. I mean, another one for me, you know, Nick talked about guardrails on social media like mine.

Just.

I just don't have social media. I mean, that's another thing that kind of helps me keep me from that mindlessly scrolling and accidentally sort of oops. Stumbling on someone's profile and beach pictures, you know, that kind of pattern.

Especially when you're in those situations where you don't have the structure. For me being an introvert, you know, when we get in these large family settings, I can very quickly be overwhelmed with the boundaries. Not the boundaries, but the expectations that I feel might be placed on me to engage in a certain way or with certain people. And a lot of times the phone is just a really easy way to kind of check out and look.

Totally disconnect something.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah. So some of this stuff, you know, specific to summer, has a lot to do with visual cues, things that we see. What can we do specifically to win the battle when it comes to taking that second look or lingering gazes, that kind of thing.

Yeah, I think this is such a challenging area because it really brings up like it. At what point have I crossed from human noticing into re. Engaging Maybe my old addiction or pattern. And I've kind of jokingly in talks brought that up of like, at what point? Like, if I noticed an attractive woman that's. And I know it's hitting my arousal center, at what point has it become like, sinful for me? Is it at 012 seconds? At points like we don't have the stop clock to just know when I've now crossed into looking too long. And I think what can happen for a lot of men and women to a degree, but maybe men being more visual, it's more something we struggled with where we have so associated. If I notice anyone attractive, there's an immediate shame response of why am I doing that? What's wrong with me? And I think part of it is releasing ourself from that a little bit. I'm not saying we make excuses to just watch whoever we want, but there's also a part of this we need to realize. Like my ability to recognize beauty, to be attracted to it, is how God designed my brain to work my eyes to work. And certainly sin and Satan can hijack that and use it for evil purposes. But I think we could help ourselves by calming down a little bit and going, okay, I've noticed someone that seems attracted me or there's. I'm becoming aware that in my brain I've found an image or a person that I would like to look at. And not just immediately going to the shame point, but of having the thought of, okay, how do I respond to this and how do I respond? Well, and we've talked about situations like if you're going to a family day at the lake, that I've brought activities that I can purposefully engage in, like a book to read, games to play with my kids. And I'm not just standing, sitting around, you know, people watching, because that's going to cause problems. But another thing that I've brought up when it comes to those gazes or those looks is to really think through how much I'm actually battling my past, not what I'm seeing in the present. So let me give you an example of that. If, you know, if you're sitting at the lake and enjoying a day with your family and someone goes by in a ski boat, you know they're probably a couple hundred yards away from you out skiing. But your brain can visually pick up in an instant like a color and a style, and you can tell it's a woman in a bikini. But from that far away, can you actually tell what they look like? You don't really know, but your eyes take it in. And then what does your brain do? Your brain makes a decision about what that person looks like. And does your brain make a decision to have it be someone ugly, unattractive, a totally different age group from you? No, you're. Your brain makes a decision to say, oh, that's this type of person. And I bring that up because I think when we realize I'm not battling my eyes as much as I'm battling my brain, it changes where we need to really fight because we've all been given some well intended advice about bouncing your eyes and look somewhere else and divert your gaze and we should do those things. But I think more important is that battle in the mind of like, okay, I don't actually Know what I've seen? I'm not just going to pick that image. And I've encouraged people to think of some internal responses I've told the story about, like when I'm out running. I've noticed the same phenomenon happening with a female jogger or walker. And my brain will start to try to pick an image of someone that's attractive. And instead, I've conscientiously decided, I'm going to decide that it's my mom or my sister or a friend, and I'm going to start praying for them, because that's just as likely as whatever image my brain picked. And when I personified someone I care about, now I'm engaged in thinking about them and praying for them, and not the supposed person that I may or may not have seen passing by. Or you might have a phrase that you just have decided, okay, Anytime my brain starts to latch onto an image, I'm going to use a phrase like, that is a daughter of God. That is someone that Christ made in his image. That's someone of unsurpassable worth in God's kingdom. Something to again bring me out of the mental loop and back into some reality of that this is a person, not an object. This is a mother, a daughter, a sister, a friend. Someone that God created for a purpose and on purpose. And it just changes, I think, the landscape. Because, yes, what we do with our eyes is important, but what we do with those thoughts and how they land in our paradigms of arousal and all of that is, I think, more important. And many people just never thought about that, that I've got to really pay attention to. What is creating the temptation? Is it actually what I'm seeing or what I'm letting my brain do with what I think I've seen?

Yeah. It's interesting. As you were talking, there's a lot of things I identified with one of the strategies I had. And this began as a single man, I would see a beautiful woman. And of course, I kind of believe that we shouldn't deny that what we see is attractive. And so I would pray and say, God, I acknowledge that this woman I see is beautiful. However, that's not the woman that you've given me. Now, as a married man, I continue that prayer and I say, I want to thank you for the woman that you have given me. And then I start thanking him for her specific gifts and how amazing she.

Is focusing on gratitude.

Gratitude. Yeah. John and I were talking about this, and this is before I even knew.

It was doing the podcast.

Yeah. John Beguman. And he said, as a single guy, his prayer is, God, I acknowledge that she's beautiful, but help me to honor her with my eyes and honor you with my thoughts. And then he just begins to pray for his future wife. And so I've found that to be super effective for me is to go, you clearly have provided me a beautiful and amazing wife. I am grateful for her. And I'm momentarily looking at that woman. She is beautiful, but she's not the one you gave me. Yeah, yeah, that really helps me.

Super practical. But, like, if it's possible, and in most cases it is, just move your body, go somewhere else. Like, look somewhere else, turn your body, move to another spot. I know that's not always a situation, but there's a lot to be said if you can remove that temptation even to look. Because again, our brain knows, like, it latches on. It's like, okay, I'm not going to forget that. It's like. It's like those sex scenes in those movies that you've seen. It's like you were all you will remember for the rest of your life where they are. And so, like, saying, well, I'm just. I just own it, but I'm going to skip it. It's like, okay, come on. Your brain keeps track of that stuff. But I think that just practically moving your body and going somewhere else or facing. I mean, I was just at the beach the other day with my boys, and, I mean, there was lots going on. People were smoking weed, and there was definitely some, like, inappropriate. Like, there was a couple doing things they probably shouldn't have done on the beach in front of children. But, like, I just moved my body. Like, I just. I, like, asked my boys to move.

To the other spot.

And they're like, why, dad? Why can't we. It's just like, please, just. You know. And then they sit down, they play with the same sand they were playing with before. But my disposition has changed.

Yeah.

And now I'm not in that same area. And I think that that's practical but helpful.

That strategy works well at the gym because of the way the machines are laid out. Sometimes there will be a woman right in front of you. And in the past, there have been times when I'm like, I gotta move, and I'm gonna go do chest now instead of arms, just because she's right there. And she'll move and then I'll come back.

I think, too, it's good to remember this is an area where, as we grow in health, there are Times we might choose some of these behaviors not necessarily for ourselves, but for our spouse or even for our kids. And I noticed this happen in our recovery maybe at year two, three, somewhere in there and beyond, where it could be related to something in a movie or, you know, being at a beach during the summer where I was not feeling triggered. And so I wasn't being as adamant or careful about diverting my eyes or, you know, moving my body. But my wife was still feeling the. The sense of, what's he looking at? What's he thinking? What's he feeling? And I had to remember or learn and sometimes some awkward, hard conversations. Yeah. That it was just as important that I did it for her. And then as I had kids that my kids saw, I wasn't just cavalier about where I looked or not wearing, like, oh, I'm not triggered by it. That it was helpful for them to see. I was aware there were images or people around that could be triggering, that could cause an issue. And whether I personally, at the moment, felt tempted or not to do the right thing by my spouse or my kids, because you start to realize, too, if you got, like, your boys with you, they're gonna notice what dad's looking at. They're gonna notice what dad is making decisions about. And those create some, I think, really great conversations when our boys are starting to get to the age where they're noticing, too, and we're making some decisions. And I think my wife and I have both been so impressed that as we've raised our boys with some of these principles and been really open in conversation, I'll be honest, like, they're better at it than I am. They're better when we're at a beach or something comes on TV of looking away or saying, we should turn that off or let's do something else, or I'm like, oh, yeah, good. Good work. I'm really proud of you for. For doing that, because it hadn't hit my brain in that same. Like, there's some triggering material here, but they've learned, and now they're the ones leading the way in it. And so I think that just is an example of when you make that not just about you, but about how does everyone else perceive it. It can help you make those decisions and honor the people around you.

You know, I really. I love what you're just saying there, because I always really admire the guys who never looked at pornography because the temptation for them is different. They don't have that ditch in their brain that the rest of us have had, you know, and man, if you can get them to fight that battle young, that's fantastic.

Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about the groups that we're involved in over the summer. I know a lot of recovery groups will take a break during the summer. Why would we at Pure Desire recommend against taking a break? And yet if our group does break, how can we continue staying in community and relationship even though our group isn't meeting regularly over the summer?

Why do we not take a break over the summer? Because recovery doesn't take a break. That's like the main reason. And I mean, if anything we're talking about this entire conversation is a reason why to not take a break during our recovery group. Now when I was putting these questions together, the thought of this one too was maybe a group finishes in like May or June and then you have summer months afterward. But I do think that it's important that we don't just view our group members as group members. They're also friends and community. And so maybe you're not in group or you're taking the summer off or your group ended. Still check in, still make the phone calls every single week. Make, you know, maintaining the faster scale during those check ins. Like, hey, where are you at on the scale? Here's where I'm at. This is how I'm feeling. And I continue to be. Honestly, it's happened so many times, but I still am surprised every time I'm feeling triggered. I'm feeling like dysregulated or whatever. I make a phone call, I talk about it for five minutes and I feel better when I'm done. And I'm like, still doesn't make sense to me. There's science to it. I just am not going to explain it right now, but there's a lot to it. So I think that that's part of it. But just finding ways to rub shoulders with the people in your group to being in relationship and community because I think that the worst thing you can do is just start to go back into isolation and pull away from relationship, pull away from your spouse, pull away from your family. And so do what you can to find ways to be in contact with still making those phone calls, but then also just hanging out. Go get pizza, go play golf, go do something, go see a movie with your friends or group members. Just be connected.

Yeah, with my online groups, you know, some of those guys are all over the country and we use our group uses GroupMe to kind of stay in touch. And so I always leave those groups Open. So I have groups going back 10 years that are still open on my phone just so those guys can stay in contact with each other. And so I'll check in every once in a while. Just go, hey, how are you guys doing? I haven't seen you for a while. And many of those guys are still active. Yeah, I couldn't answer that question better than you did, Trevor. That was perfect.

You know, if you thought of someone who's in recovery for alcohol, for drugs, you know, if they said, hey, I'm not going to AA or I'm not going to go to SA all summer, but I'll pick it back up in the fall. I think there's something in our human society that we just know, like, that's. That's. Are you sure that's the right idea? Like, don't you need to stay in some habits of checking in and talking to your sponsor? And. And though our groups are not 12 step groups, I think there are some similarities when it comes to sexual addiction and pornography addiction that maybe for a week or two, we're okay. But if we just think, I'm gonna go all summer and not need to be accountable to someone, not be checking in on how am I doing with my guardrails and healthy habits, like, I'm gonna slide back towards what's easy, what's convenient, what feels good. And maybe I don't notice it in the first week or two, but I guarantee by the end of the month, by the end of the summer, and I've heard this from a lot of guys, like, it is too long to not be engaged in intentional recovery. And so that's why we've tried to say if you. If you're running a pure desire group and it's for recovery, you need to. To the best of your ability. And I know there's. There's some weeks, like, man, two thirds of the group was gone. We took a week off. Like, okay, I get that. But more often than not, to keep moving forward, even if you're missing a couple of the guys, because the rhythm for the ones that are there is important. And when the guys that aren't there, they know my group is still meeting when I get back, I'm jumping right back in.

Yep.

It just does something for our brain and for our mindset. And that's how I would answer the question about if our group is taking a break. What do we do? Is I think we need to be able to answer the question if we're a man or a woman and we're in recovery from anything to say to whom am I choosing to be intentional to share updates about my recovery on a regular basis. And that doesn't have to be a whole group if you're not in one currently. But there had better be a trusted friend or two. There had better be someone that you really feel they're going to help me keep taking these steps. And I am choosing to go to them, not waiting for them, you know, because that's another downfall that we hear a lot from people who say, well, I, I told my group to call me anytime this summer. Well, guess how many times your group called you. Well, zero. It's a great thing to say. That feels good. But it's not their responsibility to make sure I'm making good decisions, it's mine. And so I, I've got to know who those people are, who are my check ins and being regular about it so that when the end of the summer comes and maybe our church launches groups again and I'm going to jump in. I haven't backtracked for three months and now I've got all this garbage to deal with again. But I'm really walking in that same pattern of recovery and giving my brain and body and soul the time it needs to really heal versus having to overcome a bunch of mistakes.

So let's say that you're involved in a group and vacation time comes up and you've got two weeks vacation. How do you guys suggest we should handle that? Should we try and check in just as we have been the whole time when we're on vacation, which may not be, you know, may not be reasonable given Internet and third world countries, those kinds of things. Should we just say I'm taking the two weeks off or should we try something in between? What do you guys suggest?

Yeah, this is a question that comes up a lot in my groups and a couple of things that I always say to the group members. I say, number one, check in with your spouse because I think there is a reality if you're really early in recovery, recovery, your spouse might say, I don't care if we're in Timbuktu, you're going to your group and you better find a way, you know. Yeah, I don't care if it means you're sitting in the car for two hours and it's 198 degrees in there. I want you in group. Because for them that's part of knowing that you're investing in your recovery is you're going to group, you know, and maybe you're at month nine or 10 and things have been going really well. Your spouse might be more open to that. And maybe at year five, they're. They totally know you might miss group on vacation. So I think it's always good to have that conversation to say, hey, honey, while we're on vacation, what level of engagement do you feel comfortable with me having with my group? And if they say, I want you to find a way to join online, then you do it. But what I said to group members as well is I think most of us can see that on vacation to find a couple of hours to join online, especially if we're in an in person group and they haven't been having people online, that can be difficult. Or even if we're in an online group, we may be in family settings where pulling away like that for two hours is really difficult to do. So I don't expect group members will try to join the meeting on vacation. But I do say, I think you would really help yourself and us if you stayed connected to the group through your phone calls. Because that's a reality on vacations. I think you can find five minutes to step out of the house, make a phone call after all the kids have gone to bed. You do a check in with a group member. I know groups use things like Marco Polo or other ways of connecting that don't have to be a phone call. I just think if you stay in some regular communication with group members, it gives you a place to process the new triggers that might come up, how you're doing with your guardrails, the situations that happen between family members on vacations. And if you've got that rhythm of connecting with your group, you're gonna be able to navigate those a lot better than if you just think, well, I'm on vacation for two weeks and then when I get back, I'll deal with all of it. I've done it both ways. I would just say personally and when I've gone on a family trip and not done anything to check in with my group, it just feels like I don't navigate some of those family dynamics as well. I start to get further down the faster scale. I'm more susceptible to temptation versus when I'm staying in contact. It's just what you said earlier, Trevor. It does something in my brain. It's like it resets towards some health settings. It reminds me why I'm making those commitments and I can make better decisions for my family and for the people around me. Just because I'm staying connected to My recovery. So I think you can find a middle ground in there where you stay connected, you stay aware of your recovery. But maybe because of logistics, you're not able to join the group meeting. That. That would be a good kind of compromise there.

And, I mean, if you have time to do it, like, I know some vacations, people pack it, you know, to the gills, but, I mean, do your homework, like, bring your workbook. Do your homework while you're there. And I like what you said, Nick, that maybe it's a text or a phone call or Marco Polo or whatever, but I also think that, like, let's say you're in a really warm country and you know you're going to be around the beaches or the pools. It's like, if you are feeling a certain way, even though you're on vacation, you can text a group member or your group as a whole and say, hey, I'm about to enter this situation. This is how I'm feeling. I know it's going to be challenging. I. I will follow up with a text or a phone call after those kind of plans. We've talked about the power of just saying something out loud or putting it out into the world that I am going to do this thing and follow up. Like, you're creating your own sense of accountability. Because if you don't, at least one, if not two, I mean, we all have that one group member who's like, hey, bro, you didn't do what you said you're going to do. Like, what happened, Mike? You're that guy. That's great. Actually, I think I'm that guy, too, baby. Yeah. If you don't know who that is in your group, you're that person. Just real quick. But I think that that kind of stuff is really helpful because it maintains relationship, it maintains connection, and also informs your group on how you're doing during your vacation, which they do care about.

Yeah. I was thinking as you were talking, Nick, that saying, focus goes where energy flows. And so if you can somehow plan to apply even just a little bit of energy into this, however that looks with the text, the homework, whatever, it'll help keep you focused.

Yeah, well, and I think it helps, too, to look at what are the opportunities that a trip, a vacation, summer months, presents where there may be more time to read that book that I've heard group members recommend to me or to listen to that podcast that. That I heard a group member say, hey, have you checked this one out to watch a webinar or a seminar on healthy choices or on sexual integrity, like whatever it is, if we've got more space and margin, how are we using it for good and not just, well, I'm sitting around at my in laws doing nothing. And this is what we do on vacation and feeling like you've wasted that time. Look ahead to what the opportunities are and take advantage of those moments.

So good.

So we've talked about this, I think in a number of ways already. But if we are married, what kind of role should our spouse have in helping us manage our triggers or temptations during the summer months? Do they have a role? Do they not have a role? What should it be? What say you?

Well, I think Nick kind of alluded to it earlier that if you're in a. If your relationship is in a place where you have the transparency to talk about these things, and of course, some relationships don't. I think it's good to address it ahead of time if you can. You know, what we've talked about so many times is you don't want the spouse to become put in that parental role. Um, so I think this kind of depends on where you're at in your walk and what kind of transparency you have around this with your spouse.

Yeah, I think if our spouse has been involved in recovery, you know, they're doing a betrayal and beyond group or we've done counseling together, it can be really helpful before a trip, before a vacation, or just at the beginning of the summer to have some honest conversation and ask them what are situations coming up that cause them to be fearful, that have maybe been a trigger for them, that have caused issues in the past. Because one of the things I found, and I think it's the way the male brain is maybe a little more compartmentalized, the ways we've maybe tried to deal with shame, that we forget things intentionally or unintentionally, that there would be situations I would forget about, but my wife would not because it was painful to her. Her brain was doing the opposite. Her brain was holding onto it like God designed it to, to say, well, don't get hurt again. And so let's not forget this really hurt us. And it gave my wife an opportunity to speak into, well, when we're at my in laws, I need to see you being present and not just isolating in the corner, just as an example. Not that that's exactly what I was doing, but as an example, she would remember, she would know. And so to ask her what would help you feel safe, to feel like, I'm caring for you, I'm not retreating into old patterns. What are things that come to mind about our trip, about places we're visiting, and just giving them that freedom to speak into it can be a real game changer. Especially, like I said, if they've been a part of this with you, they're probably pretty aware of some of the things coming up, maybe even more than you are.

Totally. And I think that this is one of the things that we see in this process, is that when specifically if a man is the addict or the struggler and the woman is the betrayed partner, that as the man becomes more aware of his emotions, becomes more aware of his triggers and his arousal template, when he starts to share that he, like, even something as small as, like, hey, there have been times in the past, who do we have? We had a couple on Phil and Priscilla. I don't know if you remember this, Nick, but we had them on and he had this emotional reaction because they pulled into a parking lot of a massage parlor that he used to act out at, and they talked about the power of he in that moment. Just shared like, I'm feeling really triggered right now and feeling a lot of shame because I had made some really bad decisions in that. In the past and how that was a really difficult moment, but that fused them together even tighter. And I'm not saying that that's the level that everyone has to be, but, you know, even saying, like, look, I know we're going to the beach today, but, man, I've been feeling, like, emotionally just kind of fragile. And I've been really triggered, you know, in the past, going to the beach. I don't really know what to do with that right now, but I just wanna share that. If you share that with your spouse, you're inviting them into that process. And again, it depends on where you're at in your marriage and in the journey. But I think that that can go a long way to building trust and creating safety. Because they're seeing in you, I'm identifying, I'm not doing great. Or I'm able to just say, I'm scared or I'm fearful or I'm anxious, whatever it may be, I think that that can go a long way.

Such a great reason for the spouse to be involved in this process too, because I. That situation right there is one where a lot of guys really struggle and they feel like they can't win because the wife wants to go to the beach. They might be going, I don't think I'm ready. But they can't say anything. And so they're stuck in this situation where if I say something, my wife is going to get mad at me. Pretty common in the groups that I've been part of.

So as you guys think of the summer months and some of these conversations, what are some of the main tools that you most use in practicing health for the summer months?

Three of them come to mind immediately. And if I'm taking one that you already wrote down, I'm so sorry. But the first one is just the three Circles tool, the relapse prevention plan. You have your inner circle of the like relapse where you do not want to go again, guardrails that are the middle circle, what you put around it. And then really the outer circle is the healthy habits you put in place. I think in my journey, this has been the most impactful tool. I know. Nick, the faster scale seems to be one of your favorites and it is amazing, which is another one I'll talk about. But it just. The three Circles tool gives me a picture of what I'm trying to avoid, the safety I put in place and then creating a plan of who I want to become and how to not just avoid behavior, but look at who God wants me to be. And then the faster scale, obviously emotional awareness, it's a relapse prevention tool as well. Figuring out where you're going down further and further toward relapse, I think that's super important. And then we've talked about it already. But an escape plan, like if I get into a situation where I feel super triggered and I don't know what to do. Well, guess what? I already put an escape plan together and this is exactly what I'm going to get in my car. I'm going to call a group member, I'm going to drive to this location. Because if you put a plan in place beforehand, I think that we tend to think that, you know what, when I get in that situation, I'm triggered. I'll be clear of mind. I'll be able to figure out what I need to do. No, like just does not happen. And so putting a plan in place, like an escape plan beforehand, I think is really helpful. Those are the three tools that you.

Just reminded me of a sermon I heard by Alistair Begg.

This was years, such a great voice.

Years ago, and he was talking about the training that these flight, the flight school that these pilots go through and how many hours of time they spend in a, in a flight simulator before they're ever allowed in an airplane. So that the decisions become second nature. Yeah, and he was framing this all with, if you think you're going to make a good decision in the backseat of a car at midnight after a six pack, it ain't going to happen. So you have to have a plan in place before you ever go in. I never forgot that sermon.

Yeah. And the plan is not to be in the backseat after a sixer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think the one that comes to mind for me is just that weekly commitment to change. And in the summer especially how important it is to be able to look at the week coming up. And by then, you know, I'm not great at three months from now knowing what's happening in August, but I'm pretty good at the next seven days. Identifying the purpose of that commitment to change is what will be your most significant obstacle or roadblock to sobriety, to walking in health.

That's good.

Where might you be most tempted towards a relapse? And if I know, like, man, this weekend we're going to my in laws and that's a place where emotions can run high or this conflict can come up. And I know I'm going to be tempted at some point to go and isolate on my phone. Here's my commitment to change to you, my group members, ahead of time, that if that scenario happens, here's what I'm going to do instead. To choose health. Or I know we're taking the kids to the swim park and there could be a lot of visual temptation. Here's my plan ahead of time and when I've made the plan and told group members, then when I'm in that situation, I think it just changes your whole mental framework because others know you're there, others know your plan and you're way more able to execute it. And week in and week out, that need is going to change. So it's great to have guardrails and it's great to have our three circles that kind of. I would say that to the beginning of the summer is a good time just to pull your plan out. You know, if you haven't read it in a month or two, yeah, I would just bring it back out and ask yourself, is this plan well designed to keep me healthy through the summer? And if you realize there's some gaps, it's a good time to update it, to add a few things that can be a good game plan for the whole summer. But I think that weekly kind of commitment of what do I need to do this week to choose health, that's the most important one for me.

So I hope that people hear that there are plenty of tools that you can use to help you through the summer that you don't just have to skate through and hope that, like white knuckling your way through, you don't.

Yeah.

Actually, as I'm saying that, just also know that group is a tool. Like. Absolutely. I think that that's important to just say again, like, we've talked about it throughout this entire, entire episode, but being in a recovery group or a betrayal group is so important. Specifically for those struggling with sexual addiction. Being in community, being known, going through a process, a competent process, I think is the best tool.

What final encouragements would you give any listeners wanting to stay sober and sexually healthy for the summer?

I think for me, and we touched on this just a little bit, but it can be really, really helpful to look at the positive of what are the goals that I have? What are the opportunities I have? I think as you're hearing this podcast, and if I were to ask you the question, what are your top two goals or your purposes over the summer, if nothing comes to mind, that's a great place to start, just between you and the Lord, or maybe with your journal, maybe with your spouse or close friend to just process. Like, what do I really hope to get out of this summer? Is it growing in connection with my kids? Is it looking to really honor my spouse by doing some projects for them? Is it quality time with some of my best friends? Is it group work? Is it that resource I want to read, whatever it might be? Like, if I've got a few things in mind that really shape the positive of my summer, to be able to say, when I get to Labor Day and I look back, what will make this a good summer and really beginning to run after those things versus just saying, my goal is to get to Labor Day and not have relapsed or done something stupid? I mean, that's. Yeah, none of us want to do that.

I don't know about the stupid part, but the relapse part maybe.

Yeah, for sure. If that's your only goal, what you're avoiding, it's not nearly as powerful as also what you're moving towards. And so I think just look at all of these areas of trigger temptation problem spots you've had in the past and say, instead, what are the opportunities in those moments? I think for so many of the illustrations we've used here, it is at places like beaches and parks and lakes and oceans, which really can be the place of some of our greatest family memories. And so looking at that positive to say, lord, how could I make some of the best memories with the people I love and not allow the enemy to taint it with something that happens on the side or something that I run off to on my own? And then just really game planning around it and doing everything in your power, using your creativity and your skill and your mind to create those memories and those moments. I think you'll look back and realize you've really had a great summer and haven't allowed your brain to go back into those old patterns.

Yeah.

For guys like you and me, Mike, I think it's important to say, like, make a plan and plan ahead. Like, make the escape plan, put it in place. Know that if I'm going to get tempted or triggered, which, believe it or not, is going to happen, put together a plan. But then also to your best, you know, ability, plan ahead. Like, don't just skate through the summer and think that you can be lazy and that that's going to, you know, maintain the health that you're trying to create. It's not. Yeah. And I know that that can sound restrictive. You know, I've heard this stuff when people are talking about creating a rule of life. Like a rule or a schedule feels so tight and restrictive. And I just, I feel like I can't be myself. It's doing the exact opposite. It's helping you become who you want to be, not just keeping you from having fun. Like, this is trying to be intentional about putting a practice or putting a rhythm in place to help me become who I want to be and who God's designed me to be. And I think that that's what we want.

You know, it was interesting as you were talking, Nick, I think those things that you were describing were all that third outer circle healthy behaviors that guys are so bad at in groups, that seems like such a struggle for them. And in the summertime, you have more hours, daylight hours to do some of these things. And maybe some of those things are family things, outdoor things. And it just made me think as you were talking, those are all those outer circle things. The other thing that came to mind was, I think you guys, I don't know if you saw it, but on the Team 58 day, there was a young couple with a baby that was on there. And it was so beautiful because one of the things he said is that I love what pure desire and group is done for me because I was able to be fully present at the birth of my child.

That's cool.

And it sounded as you were talking that that's a lot of what you were talking about. These memories that we're going to make at the beaches and all these things is being able to be fully present, engaged with your family.

Yeah, it's good. So it is very possible, listener, to be healthy sexually during the summer. It absolutely is. And we hope that just something that keeps coming to mind throughout this entire conversation is just know that you will be triggered. There will be temptations that come up. So plan on it. Like, don't just hope that it doesn't happen. And like, pray, dear Jesus, please don't let me be tempted. It's like, okay, yeah, you could totally do that. But you're going to be in a situation where something happens that you weren't expecting, you were invited to something, or you get, you know, roped into something with your family, whatever it may be. But just be intentional because you can stay healthy and you can stay sober through the summer. And we hope our conversation helped you see what that could look like for you. Mike, thanks for popping in and having this conversation with us. We always appreciate our time with you.

Sobriety doesn't take a vacation.

That's right. And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody and write us a review. If you want more information on our groups, resources or counseling, just go to PureDesire.org lastly, never stop being healthy. Sam.