363 - The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly Of Purity Culture w/ Katherine Gallagher

Foreign. Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from porn. Hello. Hello. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 363 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me as always, is my co host, Nick Stumbo.

Saddle up your horses Singing again We gotta trail the blaze to the wild blue yonder of God's amazing grace.

So the way it started, let's follow.

Our leader into the glorious unknown. We just reached the end of my knowledge base there.

Okay, thank you.

But, man, I had a few good lines going. I just couldn't stop.

No, the tone was great. I really like the tone. At the beginning, it sounded like a song from a commercial, like a beer commercial or something inspirational, but then it turned to God. So speaking of which, let's just get into why you had that intro. We had Kathryn Gallagher on today, and she is from an organization called Go Strategic, which does, like, worldview stuff, strategic networking stuff with businesses and churches. And she has a lot of experience in going into schools and even other countries talking about how to manage sexuality. And so we had her on today to really talk about sort of. She wrote a book, sounds like 30 years ago about it. But we had her to talk about the good, the bad and the ugly of purity culture.

Yeah. And sometimes I forget, Trevor, how young you are. If you were a child of the 90s.

Thank you.

You would know so quickly. That was Stephen Curtis Chapman.

I mean, I was a child in the 90s.

Yeah. I mean, you were a little child, not a teenager, excuse you. And in the middle of the 90s, you know, Stephen Curtis Chapman, Michael W. Smith, Twyla Paris, Point of Grace, Amy Grant, you know, they're kind of these voices that typified, I think, a Christian generation of teenagers. And another part of that for so many of us was the teachings of purity culture and the true love weights movement and purity rings. And that's what we talk about today. There were very good things about that that elevated God's standards and the beauty of marriage and the sacredness of sex, but also, I think, a lot of unintended byproducts that we're still seeing some of the results of in terms of shame that people carry feeling like they've, you know, that God is very disinterested or even at worst, angry about their sexuality. And we just had a great conversation of how do we navigate that now and enter into healthier conversations in our homes and our churches? Because we really do know that God is the author of sex. And yet the way that's been communicated has not always been as clear as a good Stephen Curtis Chapman lyric. So I hope people really enjoy the conversation.

The song, I'm diving in. I'm going deep over my. That song. Is that Stephen Curtis Chapman?

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Don't say I don't know Stephen Curtis Chapman. Get out here. Yes, I do. I knew all of the groups, by the way, musicians, and mostly because my mom listened to them, but I do remember that. So thank you for bringing up my age again. It's not a trigger at all, but we are excited for you to listen to this conversation with Katherine Gallagher on the good, the bad, and the ugly of purity Culture. Kathryn, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast for the first time. Thanks for being with us.

Thank you so much for having me. Really excited to be here.

So today we're gonna look at something that's called purity culture. And I mean, again, kind of one of those buzz phrases where you can hear like dum, dum, dum, kind of especially in the Christian world, it is such a buzz phrase or buzz word in the church. And it's packed with a lot of emotions and I think a lot of experiences for a lot of men and women who grew up in the church, especially in like a certain period of time. And so today we're gonna look at really the good, the bad, and the ugly of it. And we really do believe that all three of those things exist inside of it. So let's just jump into it. Kathryn, is this is the first time that you're on the show? Can you tell us a little about yourself and about the work you do? Kind of tell our listeners a little bit about you?

Yes. Thank you so much for having me. So I am the executive director for an organization called Go Strategic, was actually founded by my f back in 1979. And we really focus and specialize on worldview and strategic thinking and strategic networking. So we basically try to equip people, churches, organizations to think biblically, live strategically, and lead effectively. So we run in a lot of different streams because we're multi jurisdictional, meaning, you know, it's business, it's church, it's all connected, all one thing, and have the pleasure of it also being a global organization. So we get to connect with wonderful people all around the world.

That's awesome.

Yeah, sounds like good stuff. And I know the last time I talked with Catherine, she was headed to South Africa, doing a conference there. And just to speak for the networking, she talked about. She said, man, we'd love to put out some PD info at the table and connect you to churches there. And they followed up on that and we got to dialogue a little bit about what was happening in South Africa. And so, yeah, thanks for being a connector, Katherine, for just your desire to see people live in a biblical worldview as our world continues to change. And one of those areas and that you and I talked about was just how significant it is that we try to help young people understand sexual health and in a very changing world. So I know from our conversations that you had said all the way back into your late teenage years, you were involved in going into classrooms, teaching on sexual health and purity and abstinence. So tell us a little bit about how you got started doing that and how have you found that your message has adapted over the years as you've continued to connect with young people around this topic?

Yeah, so I started when I was in high school, actually. The organization I work for, we have a worldview school. And one of the requirements was a service project. And so for our service project, we came alongside this lovely Catholic gal who lives here in my county, I'm in Northern California.

And.

And she. This is in the 90s and in the height of the purity culture movement and the safe sex message that was being pushed, you know, through all the public schools. And this gal had a heart for teenagers and wanting to show them, you know, a better, a better way relative to just the safe sex message. And because we went into public schools, of course it's not a religious thing. You have to, you know, it's public school, so you have to just go after the principals. And so what we did is we started, we, myself and several other people actually, including some of my siblings, we all got involved with this group. Side point, side note, I'm actually still involved with this group. I'm actually now on their board. So things have gone full circle for 30 years ago.

Yeah, that's a long term connection.

Yeah, yeah. So we would go into schools and it was peer based sex ed. So you would go in and say why you were choosing to wait. And then there was a curriculum that went along with it too. And because I did that so much at the same time, simultaneously, I was being mentored by one of the more well known national abstinence speakers. And she actually was regular doing talk shows and different things like that. And so if she got booked to do a talk show or and couldn't do it, she would refer them to me. So I ended up not just going into public schools, but going on talk shows in LA and New York and flying, you know, to go talk about saving sex for marriage. But the big point of it was that I think made it kind of more unique was I really tried to approach it from the positive side of waiting. There was such a fear based message, you know, don't get pregnant, don't get aids, you know, don't be shamed, whatever, all this, you know, but what can we do that's a positive message of the benefits of actually waiting? And so that was actually my, my real emphasis. I actually also wrote a book about it. But do not look this book up because it is so dated. When I wrote this book, Britney Spears was still claiming to be a virgin. So that tells you, you know, how off. How long ago it was. Y. Um, but I, I wrote a book about it on the apologetics level too with of what are the principles behind waiting and the benefits that are, are positive versus just all the negatives. So that's what I did for years. I still carry that message and honestly I haven't changed that much of how I say it because it was always emphasizing the positives of waiting. You know, for Christians, sometimes we're known for what we're against.

Yeah.

And I was like, I want to also be known for what we're for. We're for healthy sexuality. So.

Right.

Yeah, I love that too because that emphasizes God's original design for it and the benefits that, I mean, he had in mind when he put really the structure around it, for sure. So as I said at the beginning, many of us grew up in a church during, you know, the era of purity culture. You know, I know for me, I was a younger man in the church and I remember it being something my parents taught at youth group and was something that was taught from the stage and definitely felt like it was emphasized more for students. But when we say purity culture, what are we talking about and what are kind of the main components of the teaching?

Yes. So as I think we've mentioned before a bit that it really came at its peak in the 90s and it was a bit of a response to the cultural, the things that were going on in the culture at the time with the whole safe sex message and still coming out of the sexual revolution and all those different things. And it, it really was emphasizing purity until marriage. And there was purity rings. And I had a purity ring. I was given one by my father. It emphasized there was in some parts of the country purity balls where they would go to a dance. There was, you know, a lot of emphasis on the young people. And I would say also in particular, women saving themselves for marriage and then, you know, being very, very pious about their sexuality. I would say, yeah, yeah.

I think the message I got, you know, growing up in church and my dad being a pastor and going to youth group, you know, my whole life as a teenager was just this clear message of God intends sex for marriage. So until you're married, no sex. And if you do that, God will bless you and it will be the best way to live. And it created some healthy expectation around God's design and God's creation and that, you know, God was for sex, but it also left, I think, just a lot of gaps and holes and maybe created some unrealistic expectation about what marriage would be like or. Or how that process would work, because we had kind of saved ourselves for this golden moment. And I know we're going to get into that a little bit, but I think that was the basis of it is like, if you really love Jesus and you were following God, you were going to save yourself from marriage, because that was the best way to live. And there was just really no other conversations about healthy sexuality other than that. Was in and of itself what it meant to be sexually healthy.

Yeah, absolutely. And I like what you said, Kathryn, because I really do feel like it was a response to the culture. And I do think it was the church's perspective or I guess like, campaign on how to talk about sex and how to talk about God's design. And so, you know, I know we're going to get into some of the bad and the ugly of it, but I really do think that it did come from a good place of. A place of wanting to address knowing that students, knowing that men and women walking into their churches are hearing these messages from the outside culture and wanting to create kind of this bubble, which, you know, as a parent, I can tell you I understand that principle of wanting to put a bubble around people that you care about because you want to protect them from the damages that are out there or the pain that could be. So I think it is important to set at the start that it wasn't this, like, evil, maniacal thing that the church created to try to control people. It was a positive response to the culture trying to equip people for God's design for sex.

Yes, I totally agree. I think it was well intentioned. And again, there's parts of it that were great, but as we said, we're going to get into Some that wasn't so great, but the heart for it was a desire to protect our young people and help them be set up for, you know, Lord willing, healthier marriages.

Yep.

Yeah, well, let's jump into that, Catherine, because I think part of our heart for this conversation was there. There are ways in which maybe the backlash against purity culture has been a bit of a throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But there were positive aspects of, I think, that culture and still some of that teaching within the church. And so you've talked about how much you like to focus on the positive. What have you seen are the positive outcomes of some of the purity culture teaching?

Yeah, it's definitely countercultural in a good way as far as looking at the value of our sexuality. That it is, you know, something to be valued, to be treasured, that we are not just animals, but that human beings are above animals that way and that there's so much more complexity to us as human beings that why would we want to devalue ourselves to only considering ourselves animalistic? So I think it's very holistic in its view that our sexuality is a part of who we are, and it's an important part of who we are. And it connects beyond the physical, obviously, the spiritual, the mental, the emotional, all those things coming together. So a holistic approach and really looking at the positives of the self discipline of managing our. Ourselves, our bodies, our desires, governing ourselves and the positive foundation that that sets. You know, when I talk about. You mentioned South Africa, I was sharing on this in South Africa, and I was also in Madagascar. And one of the things I emphasized when still talking about this is even when you get married, there's going to be periods of abstinence. It's not like you're constantly able to be intimate, even if you want to be. You know, there's. There's issues. You have travel, you have medical issues that come up, you have hard pregnancies. All these different things that make it where, you know, it's not like it's a free for all, all the time. And so setting up some of these healthy patterns before of learning how to divert your sexuality or manage it in a healthy way sets you up for better balance in your marriage in the long term. So that's just one example. Kind of the things that the character qualities that it instills in you that will carry with you through your whole life, that it's not just about, you know, this one season, but it actually continues on. So that's just one example.

But yeah, what came to mind for me is it really stresses the importance of, you know, and I have it up right now, 1 Corinthians 6:18, the uniqueness of sexual sin. Paul says, flee from sexual morality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. And then it goes in to talk about our body being a temple of the Holy Spirit. And I think that this is a positive aspect to the purity culture is it emphasizes the uniqueness or the importance of paying attention to our sexual morality and how that impacts us as a whole person. If you think about it, sinning against yourself does kind of turn, you know, the tables, I think, in that. And so I appreciate about purity culture that it's elevating scripture's teaching on purity. And, you know, as we continue this conversation, there's going to be a negative side or a darker side, I think, to that. But that idea that it is something that impacts you, as you were talking, at a number of different levels, that it is something that's very integrated into who we are. And so, yeah, for me, that's just what comes to mind is that 1 Corinthians 6. Yeah.

When I think about my upbringing in the church and the positive aspects of purity culture, it really taught me that God has a plan and do you know what it is? Do you understand why God has a plan for sexuality? And if he does, wouldn't it be worth knowing that and understanding it? And I'm thankful that I didn't grow up in a church that was just like, well, you just have to believe it and don't ask questions. That we really did explore some of the, well, why does God create sex for marriage? Why does God confine it to what seems like kind of this limited use and understanding that I think more deeply was very rewarding and was helpful to understand God and creation and humanity. It also taught me that marriage and sex were sacred. That in a day and age where I think in the 80s and 90s, cohabitation, living together, casual sex, one night stands were just, you know, skyrocketing. And the church, I think, in a very healthy way, said there's something special and unique and beautiful about the marriage covenant, about having sexuality be reserved for those two people within that covenant. That for me, in a positive way elevated that beyond what was happening in culture around me. And I think that aspect that you touched on, Catherine, that it also gave me a belief and I don't know that I always exercised it well as a teenager, but it really Gave me the belief that I was able to manage my desires, that I was above what my body was wanting or craving or curious about. And like I said, I know as part of my story and falling into or ending on a pathway into addiction to pornography and some of those issues, I didn't always understand how that worked. And that's, I think, a little bit the negative side that we'll get into there. There wasn't a lot of understanding beyond just save sex for marriage, but it did elevate your. Your ability to choose to. To stand against temptation, to not just be a slave to your emotions and desires and wants, that you really could make those wise decisions. And that belief, I think, has really been helpful in later years when I did start to understand what was happening in my brain and my body and how I had, you know, chosen my way into addictive behavior, being able to choose my way out with the help of God and others. Part of that was a belief that I can be greater than this. I can be above those urges. So I think those were some of the really positive things that were built into me because of a lot of that teaching.

Yeah. You're reminding me of a kind of funny story of, you know, for years, when I was speaking in the high schools, I became known as Miss no Sex. That was one of my nicknames, because I spoke so much around my county, which was fine. But a couple years after I graduated high school, I was in the grocery store, and a young man who I knew from high school saw me from across the way and yelled at me, you know, hey, Catherine, are you still a virgin across the grocery store? Oh, my gosh, of course. I'm a little embarrassed. I go over to talk to him, and I said, you know, hey, good to see you. Yes, I am. I'm still, you know, saving myself. But here's the point of that conversation that I. Going back to some of what you're saying earlier, the value of our sexuality, he said, you know, I. He was super popular in school. You know, he's a football player and all those things. And. But he said to me, just emphasize so much how he respected my position and how he saw that it was honoring a part of who we are. And he said, you know, I've had tons of sex, but I've never had love. And it just was so interesting to see even just that for those that were observing, you know, some of what we were talking about, to still see that they could see the honor that was in it.

Yeah.

And he was saying it from Necessary place of shame for himself, but more like, wow, that's. That's possible, you know, to kind of honor. Honor yourself that way, which I thought was. I thought was impactful from a college football player.

Yeah. Okay, so. And I want to just say this, too, for the listeners, like, there's a reason why we started with the positive, because I think a lot of our listeners have experienced the negative side of purity culture, and we don't want to throw the whole thing out with the bathwater. Right. And so let's get into it now. Purity culture, kind of, as we've been discussing it, has downsides. And really, I think this. This word is important. Unintended negative effects. And so what are those, and how do we see those negative impacts playing out today?

Yeah, I mean, if you. I don't know if you guys have done this recently, but if you Google purity culture, you know how it fills in for you the words.

Yeah.

The second one is trauma. Purity culture trauma. And then it just goes down from there. It's. It's crazy. And obviously, we know with Joshua Harris and some of the other situations that have, you know, flipped and, as you said, threw the baby out with the bathwater, but there. There's so much there. I think, personally, big picture, there would be kind of. Kind of two pieces. I would say. One, I think a level of unhealthy expectations that if you do this, you're gonna have the perfect marriage and the perfect sex life. Like, you're guaranteed that on a level that just isn't realistic because we live in a fallen world. And I know a lot of people that. That was a big issue for that kind of felt they were sold that line and missing the. The reality of marriage, what it really is.

Totally.

And then the other big one, in my personal opinion would just be the over the. The repression that came with it. That because we didn't know, we're maybe so scared our kids are going to start having sex that we so repress their sexuality that it becomes an issue where they're. They're repressed and they end up, you know, bitter. All those things that shame and not having a place to put their sexual energy in a positive way. Like, a lot of that just wasn't addressed. Those would be the two big ones to me, that come to mind initially.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think that was really the byproduct for me was that feeling of unless it was in marriage. And that was obviously, when you're a teenager that's down the road, that feeling that anything sexual, anything that's kind of that flavor. Fleshly desire, we would call was always viewed as being sinful, as part of our fallenness, as something that was wrong with us and needed to be, you know, avoided. Bounce the eyes, don't think about it, turn away, have nothing to do with. And. And there are biblical principles there of how we should respond to temptation. But in the. I was never taught that at its root, all of that desire and the stuff happening in my brain and the, you know, the hormones and the dopamine, like, that God had created that and that it was his design. And those things I was feeling was how he had made me. And so rather than seeing it as part of God's goodness, I always saw it as part of my sinfulness. And that really became difficult to reconcile in marriage of, like, wait, is this. What part of me is good and pleasing to God? Because now I'm married, and what is. You kind of still feel like there's this unhealthy sinfulness even in marriage sexuality, and you don't know how to really give yourself permission to be fully alive. How God made you within marriage because you're still battling kind of this. This is. This is wrong. It's. You know, there's that joke we've. And I think it was Sheila Ray Gregoire that has said it in her book that, you know, sex is dirty, bad, and evil, so save it for the one you love.

Yeah, yeah.

And you kind of feel that way, like, okay, we went. It's all been red light, red light, red light. Don't go, don't touch, don't see, don't have anything to do with. Yeah. And then the pastor pronounces, I do you know, your husband and wife? And now it's like, green light. And you just go, like, right. And there were just so many mixed things that happened that no one. I think this is, to me, another huge downside. No one talked about all the gray area in between. Sexist for marriage. Don't have it until then. You know, all the stuff to do with lust and, you know, masturbation. And, I mean, the conversations about that were just so focused on good and bad, sin and righteousness, that I don't think there were any healthy conversations around what did it look like to manage sexuality in a healthy way? And I think we're seeing that in some ways happening for our young adults. You know, people in their 20s and 30s that are single are asking us a lot of hard questions of, like, is it even possible to manage my sexuality as a single Adult. And I think part of that is because as a teen, they were. They were basically presented a gospel of just wait until you're married, right? And like, I'm not married and I don't know if I ever will be. What do I do with this whole sexuality thing? And so we didn't learn healthy ways to navigate a lot, navigate all of that. You know, I said, I think purity culture did teach me that I could be above those urges, but at the same time, I think it taught me a dual message that those urges were really, really powerful, really, really dangerous. And I'd better not ever put myself in a situation like where I was alone with a girl because I would not be able to control myself. And so it was all kind of this boundaries based dating. And I think, you know, as a dad of four kids, I think boundaries and dating are really wise. But the reasons for the boundaries, I think reinforced an idea that your sexuality in the. In the moment of, you know, temptation is way stronger than you are, and it's really up to you. And I think back to something you said, Catherine, really putting a lot of emphasis on girls to draw that line to don't let boys cry, you know, because they can't really help themselves. So you've got to be one to say no. And it's like, man, that's putting a ton of pressure on a girl and on the boy, reinforcing this negative message that you can't control yourself, you can't make wise decisions. And so I just feel like it left a whole area of gray zones that no one ever talked about. And in those gray zones is where I developed addiction, where I developed really unhealthy patterns. And part of it, you go, well, hey, I'm not having sex. I'm not going out on the weekends like all the other guys on my football team and going to these parties and bragging in the locker room about who they'd slept with and how they even turned it into a competition of who'd been with who. And so there was kind of this righteousness of like, well, I'm not doing all that bad stuff that my church has taught me is so wicked and evil. But yet all the things I was doing privately in terms of pornography and lust and fantasy, I had nowhere to go with. And so you just kind of stay in that gray zone. And that developed, like I said, a lot of unhealth down the road.

One of the things that you mentioned, too, with what the church can do inadvertently with men, I've been thinking a lot about that. And I'm thinking now it needs to be a full other episode that we do. But I think that the church does need to take some responsibility on the messages that it communicates to men and women in their churches and how that impacts that. Because what you're describing is like, my sexuality is like a caged lion, and I better keep it in the cage. Keep it in the cage, do everything I can. I can't trust myself. And to your point, that teaches that it's never something I can control. And then once the lion's out of the cage, it's like, well, I've been trained so, you know, so long to keep it in there. Like, what do I do now? Like, it's just something that I think that the church needs to maybe start seeing itself and the messages that it gives in that light, that there are things that we can inadvertently cause. The other thing, and I don't think either of you mentioned this in general, but just your entire worth being based on whether you're a virgin or not is something that I heard, and it's something a lot of my friends in church heard. And yes, 1 Corinthians 6, there is a unique aspect to sexual sin and what it does to us as a person and our body. But it is not like the top tier of sin. Like, it's not this elevated thing. And I think it's, you know, today it could be any of the LGBTQ topics, those conversations, people in those categories, we can view that as like, that is the worst of all worst, you know, and they quote Romans 1, and it's like, okay, I get where you're coming from, but at the same time, like, all of that sin is forgiven at the cross. And that's something that I didn't hear emphasized. What I heard was, be a virgin. Be a virgin. Oh, you're not. You're bad. And it's like, well, okay, now I'm carrying this moniker around, this scarlet letter for the rest of my life, when, I mean, you can have an incredible relationship with Jesus. You can have a very healthy marriage. If you had sex before marriage, shocker. Alert the media. You know. But I do think that it was so heavily pushed that so much of our self worth and value was wrapped up in have I had sex or not.

Yeah. And that was actually one of the common questions that I would get when I went into public schools was the students asking. And you could see it coming from a place of fear and shame, because they probably had already, you know, and they'd Ask me, hey, well, does this mean you're only going to marry a virgin if you're saving yourself? And I said no, because if I believe now, again, in the public school context, I couldn't give all the godly reasons, but if I was in a youth group, I could say also I believe in redemption and forgiveness and restoration. And if I say I believe that, I can't say I'm only going to be with someone who's a virgin. And you know, and I agree that there was a lot of kind of shaming on that. That was more, more than necessary because we believe in a God of redemption and a God of forgiveness. My husband was not a virgin when we got married. I was. And you know what he would say it was like his first time. You know, God can redeem and bring those things around. So. And I agree it was definitely overemphasized that way on a level that I think brought extra, extra shame. Unnecessary to people to not see the redemption attribute.

Yeah. So, Katharine, if we or someone that we care about was maybe damaged by some of the purity culture messaging, felt a lot of shame around our sexuality. Felt like we, you know, given away our rose and could never get it back. And maybe still to this day have struggled with some of that, that tension of is my sexuality? Is any of it good? Is any of it godly? Like, if we really carry a lot of shame from that kind of way of thinking, what would you suggest we could do to relearn a healthier view of true God given sexuality?

Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. Again, when I was kind of looking over again, some of the methodology and, and main things that were, were pushed in the purity culture. One of them too is even responsibility down to if you had a bad thought that, you know, it was totally your fault and not recognizing that, you know, thoughts can be like birds that fly through our heads and we didn't necessarily send them there, you know, and we just have to be in the place to not let them land. Right. And so understanding that all the things that come after us aren't necessarily us, because I think people would get shamed if they had a bad thought or this or that, you know, so looking at our, our mind, recognizing that's not all us, there is spiritual warfare. There are things going on in the outside of yourself that may be pushing this, this shame on you. And then looking really, we, I think as a church have really missed it relative to godly sexuality. I mean, I still, I go to so many church And I, I love the church. We need the church. Yeah, it important. But so many churches don't talk about sex or if they do, it's just in these little one offs of, you know, hey, yeah, save it for marriage. We should be regularly talking and in the church about this. And for those who've been traumatized and have had this negative, they need these more positive messages and I encourage them to do them, you know, God, it was God's idea. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but you'd be amazed how many times when I talk about this, people don't even think this way of. I mean, God is not an uptight prude.

Right.

He could have chosen for sex to be purely mechanical, like, you know, using the restroom. You, you know, it's not like he chose to make it pleasurable. You know, the orgasm was God's idea, people.

Yep.

So why are we so scared, you know, to talk about, you know, there's obviously in context and such, but we need to talk more openly that of the kind of God that we serve, who wanted us to have pleasure in, in the sexual act and designed it to be a wonderful bonding for, you know, for those in marriage. And so emphasizing all the positives and being more vocal about it, I think is one of the most important things.

Yeah.

You know, modeling it healthy that way and again, redemption for those that have that, you know, your sexuality is not a bad thing. God made you that way and it's just how are we stewarding what he's given us?

Yeah, I think this is, you know, one of the sweet spots for us with our recovery resources. Like they're both clinically informed and biblically based. And that is a place where you can learn, you know, God's design for sexuality and how to live in health in that. And I, I don't know why. I feel like I kind of need to make the disclaimer. But like, I don't always tend to go here first because of the damage that I think I experienced as someone in the church. I know a lot of men and women in our groups have. But this is a part where I feel like going to scripture and immersing yourself in the gospel is really essential. Because I think what, as you were talking, Catherine, I was thinking, you know, oftentimes those messages or even God's, how we view God's perspective toward us or toward our sexuality or how we've managed it is kind of something that we see from the stage or from the leader in our church. But don't necessarily see it as God. And so we kind of take what we see and what we hear and we just copy and paste that. That must be how God views me or my sexuality or whatever. But if you go to scripture, I mean, I was thinking about David. Like, we're talking about the guy who's after God's own heart, who, you know, made unbelievable sexual blunders in his life, murdered a dude after sleeping with his. Like, it's just. It's gnarly. Like, stuff that many of us have. I mean, most of us probably have never done before, you know, but it's that reality of that's us. Those are people in scripture that we can often kind of like, gloss over, like, oh, well, it's in the Bible, whatever. But it's like, no. Like, this is who real people are. And I think it's really important. And I really do think that that's why going to scripture on our own, not just outsourcing it to our leaders or pastors or teachers in our schools or whatever, to be able to really go to scripture and see God does have that heart for us. I've said this a couple of times, but one of my favorite passages is Exodus 34, and a theology professor of mine encouraged people to read it this way. When God puts Moses in the cleft in the rock and passes by and proclaims his name or his attributes. One of the ways to read that passage that we often forget about because two chapters earlier, they make a golden calf and they're worshiping it and having an orgy at the bottom of the mountain. They can see God up on the mountain, but yet they're doing all this gnarly stuff on the bot. Is that when you read that the Lord says he's gracious and compassionate and slow to anger, that every time he says it. It's gracious to golden calf worshipers, it's compassionate to golden calf worshipers. It's not people who have tightened themselves up and presented. It's at our worst. God is this way. And I think that purity, culture and the messages that we hear. Sometimes we can get this distorted view of God, and we have to work against that. And I think scripture is a way to do that.

Yes. That's. That's so good, Trevor. I completely agree, because a lot of these things actually do come back to our fundamental beliefs of who God is. Right. Who we are.

That's.

That's for me, in the worldview conversation, you know, what do we believe about the nature of God?

Yep.

Is he Loving? Does he care? Is he want to be intimately evolved in our lives? Is he forgiving? I mean, that. That all goes back to those hard issues of understanding who God is and how much he loves us.

So, yeah, there's definitely a danger if we think of God as just an amplified version of ourselves and because we might feel a little embarrassed in talking about sex and feel bad or shameful when we think about it, because that's kind of what we learned. We put that on God and think, well, he feels the same way. And yet I've used that in Messages on Genesis 1 and 2. When God sees Adam and Eve, his perfect creation, coming together in sexual union, what was he feeling? And if. If our thoughts are, he was probably like, oh my gosh, what are they doing? I better not look at this. Like, I didn't plan for that to happen. Like, then we really have a very distorted view of his creation because I think he was celebrating like, man, this is so amazing. And I'm so glad I created this for them. This is going to be awesome. And I think he knew, obviously he knew that it was going to be also a seed of brokenness and as sin entered the world, it would be deeply challenging. But it's also, back to your word, Catherine, deeply redemptive. There is something about the sexual union between husband and wife that is part of, I believe, God's redemption story. I mean, you look also at the Old Testament, how often God referred to Israel in those terms of like going after another lover or cheating or breaking that bond. And it wasn't just to pronounce judgment or shame on them. It was part of the redemption of and yet I will bring you back. And yet I will be gracious and kind. I will show you my love again. I will sustain you. I will, you know, I'll call you my own. It's the metaphor of Hosea the prophet, going and bringing back Gomer, that that's God's heart for Israel. And that metaphor, I think, is not unintentional to say even in our individual sexuality, when it becomes broken or when we go astray, God is redeeming, God is bringing us back. And God restores that union with. With him and potentially, you know, with our spouse. When we're willing to see that this is not, you know, just a. Unless I do it God's way, I'm out of the fold, so to speak. So, yeah, I think the more we can challenge maybe some of the metaphors we have, the view of God, it does shape our ability to enter into healthy sexuality in a new way.

So let's use that to transition then. And this is perfect because our next question is how do our views of God and really our worldview for that matter, impact the way we think about our sexuality?

Yeah, I mean it, everything we say, you know, because he's the primary cause right when we're talking worldview terms, everything's got to go back to what we believe about God because he's, he's the first and the primary. And it's not just do we believe in God, but what kind of God do we believe in? You know, there's a lot of people who believe in God, but what does that mean? And so, you know, if we do see as we're saying here that he's kind of up there just looking to judge us, you know, proclaiming all the things we've done wrong versus does he actually have a heart for us to have? I think, you know, the scripture, you know, I put before you life and death. Choose life like the God that wants us to choose life, that designed things to be life giving and not just in the idea of right and wrong, but what is going to bring life versus death. And so all those, those questions are so important. And I think a lot of times people don't realize, you know, and I know you guys get into this and some of your incredible content, you know, you look back with your family of origin and different issues. You know, for instance, if you had, you know, a not great relationship with your earthly father, how that affects your, you know, vision of your heavenly father, all those things connect. And so being aware of actually looking at what do I really believe about who God is and how he relates to me. Am I, does he care what I do? You know, all those kind of questions to, they really do make a difference for how we live our life. And is, are we a deist, Is he just far away or does he actually want to be involved in, in what we're doing? And conversely, I would say I've seen a lot of people justify some of their sexual choices because they think God doesn't care. So there's, there's the flip. There's a, we get worried on the shame side of, you know, he's, he thinks that's bad. But then I've also seen people do it where it's not that big of a deal because God's just forgiving and he doesn't really care what I do with that, you know, as long as I don't murder kind of thing. So both of those things can be at play relative to how we. The kind of God that we believe in.

Yeah, that's a great point. That perhaps it comes often from the silence in a lot of churches. It's not something outside of teaching that sex is for marriage. We hear about enough in navigating a lot of those gray areas. And so we're left kind of deciding on our own, what does God think about this? And you're totally right. There's the two ends of the spectrum of some that just feel incredible shame over any lustful thought that pops into their head all the way to people that justify, well, hey, I'm not sleeping around on my spouse, so everything else is kind of, you know, whatever. And yet believing that at that very intimate level, God knows us, God cares, and God wants to see good in our life and wants to lead our sexuality in a way that's honoring to him, honoring to others, and yet is still fully a part of who we are. Not denying that. That's part of how we've been created. And I don't think we're going to get there as a culture, as churches, until, I think, as leaders. And those of us that have a role in teaching are willing to speak up more, are willing to not leave this in kind of the shadowy confines of church teaching or what I think happens in a lot of churches once you leave youth group, we don't talk about it. It's like, well, that's something the teens need. But for us married folk, like, well, we got married. And again, that was the goal of, like, purity culture, was get married and have a good marriage. And now for all married, what more is there to say? Well, as you brought up, Catherine, there's so much within marriage that challenges couples from sexless marriages to what's happening between them physically. The times that it's painful for spouse, I mean, there's so many things the church is not addressing. And again, I think it gives us that image that God is silent on these things when the truth is God cares, His word speaks to those areas. And we've got to be willing to do some of that hard work to unpack. Okay, where in Scripture can I find some patterns of how God feels about these unique areas? Because there's real wisdom to be gained there. But again, it does take some, I think, work as leaders and as teachers to say, we're not going to be silent because we believe God has something to say and we want to explore that truth together.

An illustration I was thinking about earlier, Nick, when you were Talking about God's design for sex and that he has a plan, honestly. And I don't know why I always go to cars. I'm not a car person, but. And it's probably that's why is because I absolutely hate them. But there's this idea of, like, for my car to run as effectively as it needs to for as long as it can, there needs to be maintenance, there needs to be work put into it. There's a cost associated with it. You have to take it to get an oil change, which always feels like you're going to answer those six questions of, do you want them to change the other things? And you're like, no, I don't want to spend $400 a jiffy lube. You know, those kind of things. But then there's also, like, getting gas and there's also washing your car, and there's also replacing things and taking it into the shop. And it's just so much work. And it honestly, truly, it takes discipline to care for your car, but you're doing it with the intent that this car is going to last as long as it can, it's going to function the way it's supposed to, and I'm going to be able to use it as it was designed. And I think we need to stop looking at God as this killjoy because he has all these things that he has associated with our sexuality. And that's why I'm bringing up the car is like, there is discipline, there's work, there's cost for the benefit of experiencing it as it was designed to be experienced for as long as you are to experience it. That feels like a decent illustration, but I'm not really sure if people are tracking, but it feels like something to me, that's a pain point in my life that I can easily be like, God, why do I have to keep taking my car to do it? It's like, because I want it to work. I don't want to have to spend to buy another car. I don't want to have to experience the damages of my lack of discipline and not following, you know, the plan that was put in place.

I think that's a great analogy. And really that goes overall to our walk as believers and life in general. Right. I mean, it's. We never arrive. There's. There's always going to be, you know, we've got ongoing transformation that's going to need to happen for the rest of our lives. And the more we get in those. Those rhythms of how God's designed us to be. You know, scripture talks about how the, the commands of the Lord are not grievous. Once they become a habit, it's so much easier, but it does take, it takes time for certain things to become a healthy habit. And, and that's, that's ongoing in life. And you guys know, we, we may master it in one area and then guess what? The Lord's got another area for us that we've got to go after in our lives. But it's, it's an important approach. I think that car analogy is great because again, it's not works. It's. It's the healthy stewardship that God has designed us to do. And that's so we can work with him. Right. He wants us to mature as people and to, to live and think like he thinks and that the, the gifts that come in that, because that gives us deeper fellowship with him.

So, Katherine, you've had a lot of experience speaking on healthy sexuality and processing that with people. But the reality is, for most of us, we grew up in churches that did not talk about sexuality very much, grew up in homes, if they were a Christian home, that did not typically talk about these things. So what could we do to learn to normalize these conversations for ourselves, for our children, and for others that we're hoping to help? How do we make this part of our discipleship conversations?

Yes, wonderful question again, and so important because, you know, our, our God, the God we serve is the God of sex. It was his ideas, not Hollywood's, not the porn industries, not the world. It was his. And so we should be the number one representatives for healthy sexuality because it was his idea. And so I think it's multifaceted. Obviously we want to look at ourselves and just being healthy personally in our own sexuality. Not repressing it, but directing it to where God has it for us. In that season, if we have children, I always am telling parents, please, as young as possible, start talking with your kids about sex. Age appropriate. There's a lot of great resources. I know you guys recommend some. There are some good resources out there. But the big thing is from a young age with kids, I always tell spouses, please be affectionate in front of your children. They don't think it's yucky and dirty to see mom and dad kiss, right? Be affectionate in front of your children. Talk about sexuality in age appropriate way. Emphasize the goodness of marriage. Emphasize the reality of discipline in life. All those kind of principles that we can sow in from a young age. And then that conversation should grow. I've got teenagers. And so my conversations are a lot more explicit, for lack of a better term, because I have teenagers now. They're old enough. They're swimming in that. I need to be open. And my parents. I was grateful. My parents are very open with me, which I think is part of why I maybe didn't have as much of a negative experience as maybe others did, because my parents were very open about their sexual past and different things with me because they came out of the 60s in Berkeley and all sorts of crazy stories. But so as parents, I really want us to be open. And then as. As friends, as. As congregants. Talk to your pastor. My pastor now, they. They talk about sex. That's not because of me, but I appreciate that he. They. They make a point to talk about sex and talk about marriage. We need to do that. We need to ask our pastors to talk about it. Lead a small group. And. And again, on the shame side, too. You know, I love what Pure Desires does, because you guys are helping take away some of the shame, too. The more we talk about, look, this is a common problem. When we look at the addiction side, this is a common problem, and we need to not be pushing it into the closet, all scared. It's a reality. We don't necessarily do that with alcoholism. We don't necessarily do that with some of the other anger issues. Earlier in our conversation, I think it brought up, we kind of put certain sins as the worst. And the reality is sin is sin. It's all going to have a fallout in some way, and we've somehow even further demonized certain sins. And look, we just need to be more open and pointing people towards these resources. You know, what you guys have is absolutely incredible. You've helped so many people, and I talk about it all the time. So I think letting people know also when things do come up that we need to talk about sex more and then just bringing up, hey, there's a lot of issues right now with pornography. You should go look at Pure Desires works with that and different organizations that we can point people to. But I think it's really, we need to be advocates. You know, I think often we're known in the church as being, like I said, kind of what we're against. And we've gotta be talking about what we're for, which is healthy sexuality.

Yeah, I think that's all really good. And it's stuff we've talked about, too. Just the idea of what we do in our home, how we model it and the culture we create is going to be carried with our kids. They're gonna take that something just really small that I've started to do with my 7 year old. He's in first grade, he goes to a Christian school. But still, I know that exposure could happen. I know that it's up to high school. So I even know that there can be some rubbing shoulders with older kids. But really, just, even just this week asked the question to my son, hey, buddy, does anybody at school ever talk about their private parts? And he's like, no, I haven't had anything come up like that. And I'm like, oh, okay. And for me, it's like, okay, I need to just maintain that curiosity and asking small questions. And there are times where he's like, dad, something really bad happened in the bathroom at school today. And I was like, oh, my gosh, here we go. Here's the, like, trauma, you know, and it's like someone forgot to flush the toilet, you know, and it's like, okay, like, that's, whew, okay, you know? But it is that awareness. Trying to be that intentional and vigilant toward that. Not overbearing, but just curiosity is something I'm trying. I'll let you know how it works out in a couple years.

But no, that's really important. And asking kids questions regularly and bringing things up and putting it in on that, you bring up the modesty thing too, you know, that modesty, not in the shaming sense of totally have to cover it up and honoring. And what is that? And that has a place, you know, I think that's so, so important.

Yeah. I think for our kids, it's right now finding those launching points from culture, from what's on, you know, TV or in their favorite music or what their friends are talking about and asking them, you know, what do you think about that? And how does that fit with what you're learning about God and what you believe and becoming a safe place to process and ask questions. I think that was something I missed. And I don't know that my parents ever said, oh, we don't talk about sex, but. Because I just never heard it brought up, I didn't feel comfortable bringing them my questions. And I can tell you I had questions and I didn't know I didn't have anywhere to go with them. And I think that's what. Whether it's in our home or in our church, even in a friend group, like creating safe space for questions and curiosities and welcoming, that is not bad. And Sinful, but as part of our human nature. And then in the questions directing people to God's truth and towards that biblical worldview, I think is a huge difference. And one of the things we've just seen so clearly in our work with men and women and couples is that you are only going to create that kind of environment for safety and curiosity to the degree that you have processed your own story, that you have become aware of your own shame messages, your own negative history, your own embarrassment. I mean, I think, quite frankly, a lot of parents never bring it up because it's just a topic they still feel awkward and embarrassed about, and they never learned a way to talk about it, and so they just don't bring it up. Well, you're going to need to do some work on your story, on where those feelings are coming from, and when you do your work, then that it becomes part of the fabric of life and the nature of questions you ask in your home. But I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't know that you can just go home today and say, I'm going to be more intentional to ask my kids good questions. You can try. But if it's still coming out of a place where you have tons of fear and embarrassment and shame and awkwardness, it's not going to get you very far. And so do the work to own your story, to get healthier yourself, and this will become a byproduct of that growth.

I totally agree. We have to model it, and it's. We can't. You have to be in the transformation you're advocating. So if you haven't really processed it yourself, you can't really have them. They're not going to be able to. And again, it's so important to talk about. This may sound quick little potential tangent here, but it's reminding me, you know, when I was in Madagascar sharing about this, they have a huge. No one there talks about sex. And a lot of the cultures are still like that. People don't talk about sex in the church or outside of the church. And one of the other kind of negative byproducts of that is sexual abuse, because there's no place for people to go, for kids to go because they don't even know because it's not talked about. And so they've got huge issues with sexual abuse because it's not talked about. So there's. It's a ripple effect beyond just how you know how someone's going to live their life sexually. But there's these other Things that are connected, that if we don't talk about it, then people don't have a place to go to even realize, you know, what's happening to them. So it's really important to process those things and have a space for people to be able to talk.

So as you've done this work, you know, going to other countries, going into schools, having these conversations, how do you. And how do you encourage. We find the balance between God's standard of purity, sexual holiness. I mean, just holiness in general, but specifically in our conversation, our sexuality with also like we are made sexual and that is part of being in God's image. How do we balance those two without recreating purity culture?

Yes. So I think, number one, it's recognizing again the God that we serve. He's the author of sex. It's not a bad thing. It's not dirty. It was meant to be good. Now we live in a fallen world. So obviously it can be perverted, but in its essence, it was God's idea. So operating from that fundamental principle and truth, right. That that's there now again in our sexuality also is natural. It is part of who we are. So what do we do with it? Again, we don't want to repress things. I, I remember talked about this in numerous places where I think we have to find literal physical outlets sometimes, especially if we are. Some people, I think, are wired a little bit more sexually than others. I think we've seen that just some people, I don't know, they got extra hormones going or, or whatever. So for some people, they might need more physical outlets. And I'm not talking about masturbation, I'm talking about basketball, sports, dance, whatever place that you can put some of that sexual energy into. You know, it's very interesting. There's actually been some studies around creativity that people who are in periods of celibacy actually have increased levels of. Of creativity. You can see that with some of the classical talk about this. Actually in my book, the classical artists that wrote symphonies and such, some of the best ones were done in a period of celibacy. So that is an energy that is in us. So where do we put that energy? Again, repressing it. And then as. As Nick was saying earlier, you know, repressing it. And all of a sudden, you know, it's a mixed message there. So finding the ways that we can divert some of that energy into other parts of who we are in a healthy way and then representing again, this is, this is a natural thing that, that God has given us and then setting healthy boundaries, which we've talked about a little bit there, that we've got to have some healthy boundaries if we want to be able to maintain that healthy sexuality. A very simple analogy, you've probably heard this before. It was one we used all the time with the teens, was that, you know, the example of fire. Fire is great, right? It can heat your food, it can cook food, it can heat you up. Fires, you know, wonderful. But you want fire in its proper place. You know, fire in the fireplace is great. Fire in the middle of your living room, going to burn the house down. So the context that sex and sexuality is great. It's a good thing, but it's going to operate best in the proper context.

Yeah, I think we. We know that God has standards. And what's helpful is to think about how am I referring to them and what I mentioned in my story, if it's only about sin and righteousness, evil versus good. That way of thinking, I believe, does contribute to a lot of guilt and shame around the choices we make versus a paradigm that we could shift more towards what is God's wisdom and what is man's foolishness? What is health? What does God create that is good and beautiful and healthy, and what are things that are unhealthy and work against the kind of life we want to have? Because I think that puts it a little more into kind of this journey, mindset of, this growth mindset of I'm wanting to continually move towards what God would call wise and good and beautiful. And if I have a misstep, I mean, yeah, I may need to own it as sin. And there are things we would say biblically, God calls, you know, crossing that line and defines as sinful behavior. But I think in terms of our growth and development as humans, if I see it as man, I made a very unwise choice there, or something that didn't honor God, myself and others. Man, I really want to get back onto a path where I'm doing what's wise, I'm doing what's honoring to God and others. I think it just could keep us in a place of. I'm continuing to move towards that versus analyzing everything in my life as sin versus righteousness and feeling like we're always coming up short of that standard because none of us are holy apart from Christ's work in our life. And yet we can seek after wisdom, we can seek after God's goodness. And I think if we gave ourselves and others more of that language, we would maybe more consistently have the conversations Say, man, could you help me understand how I can make wise choices in this part of my life? Because we want to be wise, right? And yet we all know that none of us are perfect. And so, yeah, moving that direction of wisdom, health, goodness, I think would make a big difference.

And I think relationship is really important in this. I think that in isolation by ourselves, we can very easily slip back into purity culture, thinking workspace, thinking how I'm doing equals my value. And you know, it's important to know that we experience God's love, his mercy, his grace, his forgiveness on the horizontal plane of relationship. And so I think that making sure that you're in and around safe community often I think plays really, really well for the long run.

Yes, totally agree. And I love the language strategy there, I think is really important because I use that word health also. It's really, it really is about health because what is health? Health is living according to your design. Right. Ultimate health is being in, aligned with God's design for you. And that takes away again some of that right. Wrong mentality. It's very helpful also when you're talking with people that maybe do not know the Lord and just trying to explain some of your viewpoint because we know, as you guys know, clinically informed, all the issues that come up just biologically, psychologically with, with our sexuality, that actually, you know, you don't need to have a scripture to quote to explain why something could not be healthy for you. And so using those terms in the positive way too, of this is what I believe and understand to bring ultimate help. Yes, you can do the other, but I think this is going to be more life giving for you.

Yeah. Makes me think of the great Hebrew word Shalom. That, that, that shalom. Peace is peace in all areas. It's not just an absence of war. Yes. It's peace internally, peace with God, peace with others, peace with the land. What am I doing? And I think our culture really values like that idea of being at peace with yourself and others. And how do we find that? Well, a lot of the conversation we're having today could be rooted in how do we find peace with ourselves and others. And I think everyone would be motivated by that before you even turn to scripture. So, Katharine, this has been really great. I think a valuable conversation. I believe it'll be helpful for a lot of people. As we move towards wrapping up today, do you have any final thoughts or words of encouragement you'd like to share with our listeners about all these topics of worldview and purity and learning to Live in health as God called us to.

Yeah, well, I'm just grateful to be able to have this conversation. Grateful to the listeners because, you know, if they're taking the time to seek this out, they're clearly on the transformation journey in their own life, you know, seeking, seeking help and seeking the Lord and seeking growth and wisdom, as you were saying. So kudos to all the listeners. It's so important for us to continue to seek, seek wisdom in, in these areas of our life so that not only we can have health and victory in our own lives, but we can have a positive ripple effect on our communities. The more that we talk this way, the more positive, broader effect it's going to have on the communities, our families, our churches, and in turn, the world. Because these issues matter in the broader context of society. And so it's just wonderful that we can take the time to look at these things and see really, you know, it's all connected. And understanding who God is, how he's made us, is so crucial to, you know, what's happening in the world today. So just grateful for having the opportunity to be here and just encouraging people to keep seeking. Life is ongoing transformation, and the Lord wants to meet us in it.

The only thing, I think, just for listeners, a quote from a friend of the show, Craig Cashewell, once said, and I know this could be loaded, but he has said that anything that is psychologically damaging cannot be theologically accurate. And I think that's working inside of God's design. And so if you have been hurt by purity, culture, or the standard being communicated in a way that you have less value or worth, I would just say that's why we need the Lord. That's why we need healthy, safe people who are following the Lord in our life. And, yeah, I just hope that someone can get the help that they need and be able to address that. Because just because you've had a damaging experience from a church doesn't mean that's God's heart for you or your life. And so we need to find ways to reconnect you to the Lord and His original design for you.

Yeah, I think my final encouragement would just be to remind all of us that these conversations can be a tremendous area of light and hope to people who are very far from God and who maybe want nothing to do with a version of God that they've been taught or believe that has, you know, very shaming and has nothing to do with sex. And yet God is the author of sex, has such good plans for people and I think what we're seeing in culture is this is an area where people are starting to feel a lot of hopelessness because what culture has sold them, whether it's pornography or gender fluidity or, you know, choosing whatever kind of relationship I want that it is not producing life and health and fruit. It's producing a lot of pain and a lot of depression and a lot of searching of. There's. There's gotta be a better way than this. And I. I think this is such an opportunity for the church and for us as believers to say, man, there's a beautiful way and it's good. And there's a God that loves you so much. He designed you as a sexual being. And we can find really amazing ways to live into that design. And I think people will be drawn to Christ and the gospel in new ways when we're willing to talk about this, because, like I said, it's such an area of darkness in our world. It's an opportunity for the light to shine really, really brightly right now.

Yep.

Yes.

So we hope, listener from this episode, that you just understand that there can be a balance between God's holiness and our sexuality and how we manage it. And really just, like, want to make sure that you feel seen and heard, that if you have been damaged by purity culture, you're not alone. I think a lot of people have, and I think it's clear that all three of us have, even on this podcast, have been impacted in some negative ways from it. And so I think that this, again, is just a place to encourage people, like, seek help. If you feel like there is still pain and trauma that you've experienced, get into a group, go see a therapist or a counselor, and really don't just sit on that, because I think over time, that's going to continue to deteriorate you as a person. So, Katharine, it was awesome having you. You're great. Really appreciate the work that you're doing and the experience you have. I think it contributed to this conversation significantly. So thanks for your time.

Thank you so much for having me, and thank you so much for the incredible work that you guys are doing.

And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody, and write us a review. If you want more information on our group's resources or counseling, just go to PureDesire.com org and lastly, never stop being healthy.