364 - Repairing Relational Injury w/ Dr. Jake Porter

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Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from porn. Welcome back to the pod. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 364 of the Pure Desire podcast, which makes it seven years of the podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host, Nick Stumbo. Is that okay? Is that Tim the Toolman Tailor?

Yeah, I tried it. I didn't come out so hard to do. Should have practiced more. Need a little more warm up time.

Tim Allen, I.

What?

Remind me the name of the show. I'm blanking on the name of the show, but I absolutely love.

Well, now I'm Home Improvement. Thank you.

Yeah, Home Improvement.

Home Improvement. Makes sense.

So good. That's so good. Okay, let's talk about it real quick. Seven years, that's a long time. I mean, I remember when we got to 100 episodes and then 200, that whole math thing that we had a while back, and then now seven years, it's a long time.

Yeah, we avoid the math now. We just, you know, stick to. It's been seven years. Been a lot of podcasts and I think a lot of healthy conversations. You know, that that was the goal all along, is to create a space where people could hear conversations happening that most of us never get to hear. It doesn't come up in our homes, doesn't come up in our church, and. And this feels like a place that we can be around a community that knows us, that gets us, that understands our story. And I know for various listeners, they love it all. And for some, not every episode's been a home run. And that's okay. We don't judge you for that. But we do hope that along the way there's been content that met you where you were at right when you needed it, and that God continues to use it as one of the voices of encouragement and support in your journey, because we all need that.

Yeah.

And if you judge us on the audio quality of the first hundred episodes, you can totally have that. Like, I'll let you have that for sure. Content.

Pretty cool. We're humans and we keep learning and growing.

It has become a much bigger thing with much more production value, which we also put a lot of thought and energy into that just because we make this experience as good as we can for people. And honestly, speaking of good experiences, I think we had a great guest on today. We had Dr. Jake Porter of Daring Ventures on and talking about repairing after relational injury.

Yeah. You know, if you ever watched the Show Home Improvement and Tim the Toolman Taylor. One of the ironies of the show is he was a terrible repairman. Like everything they would film on their show, he would mess it up, he would make mistakes and it was always his, his partner Al that would actually do the work and knew what he was doing and, and Tim and his, he was, had a good heart and he really wanted to do the right thing but often would make things worse. And that again was the comedy in the show. And by the end they'd figure it out and everything would work out in a 30 minute episode. And unfortunately that's not how life works. Like it doesn't all work out in 30 minutes. And many of us have gone about repair in our relationships after the rupture of addiction or sexual brokenness or patterns of use of pornography. And in our attempts and maybe even good hearted attempts, we've actually made it worse. We've, we've blame shifted, we've overshared, we've under shared, we've continued patterns and I think today just really you know, we brought in an expert. Dr. Jake Porter is awesome at what he does. We really are big fans of daring ventures and really they're couple centered approach to healing. The way they prioritize a therapeutic process of disclosure as we do at Pure Desire. It's just a voice of expertise. Maybe he's a little bit like the owl in the show. Like he really knows what he's doing. And they've, they've learned a lot over the years that can really help us when we're in maybe the most difficult situation in life is how do we repair after sexual rupture in our relationship. And so I hope everyone can learn from Tim. I'm from Tim. Dr. Jake. Yes. And I really hope that there are some pastors or leaders who listen because I think we were not trained, if we could be honest in Bible college or seminary. We weren't really trained to adequately help couples in this area. But if we could understand some of this process we could be a helper. We could be that support, that pastoral voice to encourage people to keep going without feeling like we have to do the repairs. Because I think a lot of us as pastors, we were the Tim the Tool Man Taylor. Like I'm going to try to help and you know, we bungled our way through and it all got worse. So there's just tons of wisdom here and I hope everybody takes some stuff out of it that they can really work on and use in their relationship or as they help other Couples. Yeah.

So let's get into it. Here's our time with Dr. Jake Porter on repairing relational injury. Jake Porter, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast for the first time, man. Thanks for being here.

Hey, thank you for having me. Been looking forward to it. Yeah.

We have crossed paths several times, our organization and yours more specifically, very recently at the Sexual Integrity Leadership Summit, Colorado Springs, was at Focus on the Family. Was awesome. Got to spend some time with you there, there. And we have heard you speak. We heard you speak at that event and have heard you speak multiple times. We have a lot of respect for you and what you do and thought it'd be awesome to get you on the podcast and speak a little bit about what you do at Daring Ventures. But then also specifically to our topic today about repair after relational injury. And as this is the first time on the show, would you just introduce yourself who you are? Marriage, kids, organization, Daring Ventures, the whole thing. Just kind of tell people.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll start by just. Just noting that the admiration and respect goes both ways. I'm a big fan of Pure Desire and the work that you guys do and, and. And I've known about Pure Desire for a long time. Ted used to text me long ago, back when I was in. Early in my career as a csat. I met him and he heard me speak at a. At a ITAP symposium and. And became a real encourager of me. And, you know, I've been real grateful for that. And so I'm from Houston and grew up around Houston. Been been here most most my life, except for four years of my undergraduate degree that I spent in upstate New York. I was a pastor for 13 years from ages of 22 until 35. I'm in recovery myself. I got into recovery when I was about 25 years old. Became a CSAT in 2013. So I started recovery around 08.09. Right. Right around the new year of 09, and then did recovery for a few years. And then my. My therapist fired me and said, you, you should really be doing this work professionally, and encouraged me to go back to school and get a master's and become a CSAT. And I did that. And in 2017, I left pastoring and went full on into this work. I'm also the husband to Kristen, my wife, and father to Magnolia Jane, who's three and a half, and Lottie Jo, who turned one back in March.

Those feel like Texas names to me.

Very Southern names, but I'll take. So my wife is from Ohio and she's the one that wanted the very southern names.

Okay, so.

So, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I get to lead daring ventures and work with a lot of couples. So mostly what I do now is couples therapy in an intensive format with couples who are seeking to heal after the discovery of betrayal.

Yeah, yeah. So, Jake, you mentioned a little bit of your own story and recovery, and just to speak a little bit more to that, you know, this is a very unique area, a very challenging area, still something mainly unaddressed in culture at large. And so it's always unique when someone says, this is the space I feel called to, like, this is where I'm going to devote my life, my energy, my career. Could you just share a little bit more about why you chose to make this what you're devoting your life to and helping others in this arena of sexual health and recovery?

Yeah, absolutely. When I was 12 years old, when I became a believer, when, when my faith became personal. And one of the very first Bible studies that I can remember going through in my youth group was the youth edition of. Of what's what. The Henry Blackaby one. Exploring God.

Is it experiencing God.

Experiencing God. Thank you. Experiencing God and the principle in that of, you know, don't tell God what you're going to do for him, but see where he's at work and join him there. You know, pay attention to what God's doing around you. That really stuck with me in a powerful way. So when I got into my own recovery and noticed that in the 12 step meetings I was a part of, in the group therapy I was a part of, people were turning and looking to me. And, and it. It seemed like my presence in these spaces was being used by the Lord. And so I paid attention. You know, I paid attention. I paid attention to what others were saying, the feedback they were giving me. And, and so then when I thought, okay, well, maybe, maybe I do want to do this work part time, that there was. There was sort of a. Several goals in mind there. One, I was a pastor, and I thought, you know, what if I could make. If I could make 200 extra bucks a week, that would be awesome. Yeah, I mean, that was literally what I thought.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like, oh, man, that would be incredible. But, but I thought that I would continue to pastor for the rest of my career and, and have, you know, a practice on the side. But the, the demand just grew, you know, in. So 2013, I became a CSAT. 2014, 2015. And I don't. I really. I really don't even know how it actually started, but like one day I get a call from a couple up in Washington state who heard about me from someone, I don't even know who, and, and they're like, can we, can we come and see you? We can't find anyone who's got the clinical training but is working from this faith based standpoint. You know, they just, they found me and they, they reached out and then I got a call from a couple in New York State and then Georgia and then. And it, and, and the demand grew and it was like, okay, God is in this. And, and it was very fulfilling and meaningful to me. And, and I saw a lot of fruit. And so because of my own experience, my own recovery journey, my own just, just observing what God was doing around me, it became clearer and clearer that, you know, I think, I think this is what the Lord wants me to do.

And when your therapist says, you're too good of a client, get out of here. That's probably a good indicator too.

Fire. Yeah, I was. I was fire. Yeah. Yes. As a client. Yeah.

That's incredible. Okay, so specifically with sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, it's severe. And the relational injury is, I mean, it's extreme and has, I think, some unique elements. And so in your work and your experience, what makes sexual betrayal so damaging to a relationship or a marriage?

Yeah, that's a huge question. We could probably spend the rest of our time just digging into that question. The first thing that comes to my mind though, is that the sexual aspect of who we are, because of the way that God created us, I would say that. That our, our sexuality is the most concentrated intersection of our body and spirit that we can possibly experience. You cannot be sexual without being spiritual in some form. I'm not saying healthy spirituality, but, and I have long argued, describe your sexual life to me and I can tell you about your spiritual life. But the reverse is true as well. Tell me, let me investigate. Let me poke around with your spiritual life and I can talk to you and tell you things about your sexual life. Sex really is this window to the soul. And that goes back to how God created us, right? The. The very first command of God, be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. That required sex. You could not be sexually or spiritually obedient to God without being sexual. I mean, this is absolutely fundamental to who we are. And so when that part of us is injured, when that part of us experiences a wound, experiences perpetration, okay, it goes as deep as it can. I actually just got out of a group meeting, so I facilitate I have a group coaching program for couples who are healing from this. And I was with about six couples who are in this phase of like, grieving together. So they're a little further along. And we spent an hour talking about the sexual wound of betrayed partners. And it was breathtaking.

You know, I think it really speaks to what we see happening in society where the reverse is really true, that they're. That we're trying to so disengage sexuality and the body from anything, you know, real and meaningful and just commodify it or make it. Well, it's just my body and it doesn't really affect my soul. And I think we often see that happening, that whatever God has designed in a fallen culture, we're trying to implement the reverse and seeing the tragic outcomes of it and seeing the devastation that happens when people have very misordered sexual lives and use it kind of cheaply or think of it as nothing when there's a reality that it is deeply meaningful. And I think whether people realize that or not, they're experiencing a soul sickness by what they do with their body. And if we can just see that connection as a culture, man, what a difference that would make it really good.

Jake, you're putting language to. I think, I think it's First Corinthians 6 where Paul talks about the uniqueness of sexual sin against yourself.

Yes.

I've never heard it said that way. I think that was really well said, that that's a maybe a more practical explanation of. I think maybe what Paul was referring to.

Yeah. And it goes all the way back to Genesis 3. Right. So if you think about the story of the fall, that was not a sexual sin. Don't eat from that tree. And I happen to believe the way I read that text, it was a literal tree, there was literal fruit. You know, I don't think that that's metaphor. You know, some people read it as, you know, a metaphor for something sexual. I don't. I think there's a tree. I think there was fruit, they ate it, but the consequences were sexual.

And.

Right. So after they eat of this tree and they, they fall into sin, their immediate response is they, they fashion these coverings for themselves out of fig leaves and they, they cover their sexual organs, their genitalia. What. What is that? Why is there this sexual reaction to a non sexual sin? Because I think it's because that is the most vulnerable part of who we are. It is the most clear insight into our spiritual state. And now that shame has been introduced because they were Naked, without shame. And now they're hiding themselves. Why? Because it's no longer safe for me to be this vulnerable with you. If you can disobey God like that. I just saw you do it. Yeah. Wow. And that is that compartmentalization? That's that. Okay, if I can just hide this sexual part of me or if I can just separate this sexual part of me from the rest of me, me, then, then I'll be okay. That'll, that'll keep me safe. And these fig leaves, they never work.

Yeah, we just, we keep hiding until there is rupture. And so let's talk a little bit about that for couples, because that's why many people listen to this podcast. They've experienced some kind of rupture in the relationship, often related to sexual brokenness or addiction to betrayal. So when that happens in a relationship, can a couple jump immediately into a repair phase? Or are there other things that need to happen in the time after discovery before a relationship can really move towards recovery? Like just talk a little bit about that process after rupture. What, what are the next steps going to look like?

Yeah, so, so when it comes to this rupture repair pattern, it's, it's both this long term process that could take years, but that long term process is going to be made up of several smaller cycles through rupture and repair. Yeah. And, and so the long term repair of the deep, immediate, you know, obvious wound of the betrayal is going to be healed through stacking on top of each other this series of smaller repairs over these ruptures. And, and so immediately after the discovery of betrayal, you know, you're not going to. I think it's, I think it's silly. I'm going to use the word silly. It's, it's illogical. It's, it's nonsensical to think, oh, well, you know what, we're going to go meet with our pastor and pray through it with him and, and you know, we're going to move through forgiveness and then we're good to go like that. That's a, that's a long process to move through all those steps. But there are immediate movements toward repair that can happen. And these are going to, you know that verse in the Old Testament says, do not despise the day of small things. Small things. It's going to be small things. It's going to be how I respond to you when you're triggered, how I respond to you when you're reminded of what I did. What are the ways you see differences in my life now compared to. Then how am I using my time, my energy? Right. Where am I pointing myself, developing myself, those sorts of things. Yeah.

I've heard Discovery, the illustration used, that's like a brick house that basically explodes. And in order to rebuild the house, you have to lay brick by brick as you're going. So these small sections or these small steps over time and that approach of maybe going to a pastor or going to a quick intensive just to kind of stop the bleeding, that may mean that we've moved back into the brick house, but it's not rebuilt. It's still shattered and everything. So at least to the addict or the one who's struggling, it may seem like, oh, everything's back to normal. When it's like, no, we're exposed to so many different things at this point. And so. I like how you're describing that. Yeah.

Yeah. It's. It's. So. Yesterday I was working from home. It was a poor choice to decide to work from home yesterday because a work crew showed up to start replacing all the siding on our house. It was quite noisy. I did. Didn't think it through. They also arrived quite early, like six weeks earlier than we thought. But that's okay, you know, better. Better early than late. But that metaphor. I actually thought about that metaphor because yesterday evening, I'm walking around my house, and there are holes in my house. There are places where there's, like, paneling that was original to 1969 when this house was built. That's all that's separating the outside from my family.

Whoa. Yeah.

Right. It felt very, very vulnerable. Yeah. You know, this is. We are living in a compromised house right now. And I was aware of that. And I would say it would be silly not to be. Yeah.

There's such a message there that we really hope churches and leaders will hear, because I think we are, in our upbringing, maybe particularly evangelical churches. I don't know. I've not been in a Catholic church or a mainline Protestant church very much. Maybe they struggle with the same thing. But I think we do have this mindset of, you came to us, there was forgiveness, we prayed, we sought God's grace. And all those things are very good. But that mindset like, that's now better and we can all move on is just not a reality that people experience. And then we get on the back end of that. A lot of people are very wounded because of the pressure, like, well, you should be all better. How come you're still mad at him? I thought you forgave him. Remember, we had that meeting and we prayed, isn't it all better? And yet there's ongoing needs. And so I think as pastors and leaders, if we could be educated and understand this process of repair and that it takes time and that, that the soul heals slowly and that there's phases to it, like, we'd be just much more equipped then to help people take those initial steps. But to know there's more healing yet to come. And you know, we've used a lot the illustration of a physical injury. If you're in a catastrophic accident. Yeah. You need to stabilize the patient. And that might be the metaphor of there's forgiveness, repentance, there's some ownership and prayer. That's very healthy. But in an accident, we don't just stabilize the patient and send them home. Like there's, there are all sorts maybe of surgeries that need to happen and then physical therapy and check ins and like, it's, it's going to be a long process.

Yeah.

And if we know that about the physical body, why wouldn't we assume that's also going to be true of our spirits and our souls and our relationships that, like when there's been a catastrophic injury, which sexual betrayal is, this is going to be a process. And I think if there was just a mindset shift there for leaders, we could actually help people better. And it would actually, I think, relieve a lot of pressure from the average pastor who does feel like they've got to be the fix it man or woman, like, will you come to me and I fix your problem? And if we know, oh, this is a long process, God, would you just use me to be one step of this couple's healing? Would you just help me to point them in a better direction towards resources like that Feels more doable as a pastor than feeling like, well, I've got to fix them in this one session. So I think there's a mindset there that could help us.

Yeah.

So, Jake, let's press into that and maybe it is go to your pastor and have that prayer meeting. But in your work and your experience, what would you say are the first initial steps for a couple? That discovery, disclosure, significant relational ruptures happened? What are the first initial steps that you encourage couples to go through for repair?

Yeah. Thank you. I love this question because it could save a world of additional hurt and additional trauma. I cannot tell you the number of couples who come into my office and on top of the trauma, just of the discovery and the betrayal and all of that. They have had layered on top of that treatment induced trauma from I'm sure, well intentioned but uninformed mental health professionals and spiritual trauma from well intentioned pastors who, who end up doing harm. And so the first thing I say is you, you gotta find a specialist. Right. I guarantee you if I've got a dermatologist appointment coming up in a few weeks, right. I guarantee you if that dermatologist finds something that's suspicious, you know, and it happens to be cancerous or something like that, I'm finding a specialist.

Right?

Right. I'm gonna go find a specialist. And like you just said a moment ago, if we're doing that with our physical body, why would we not do that with, with our hearts, our minds, Right? And so there are well trained professionals out there who, who understand sexual betrayal and betrayal, trauma and, and you need to find those people first. That's what I so find good help and pure desire. I would, I would. You guys are a place that I point folks. You know, go, you know, reach out to pure desire, reach out to the appsats community. There's. There are other resources out there as well, but reach out to us. Even if you're not someone we can help, you know, because you're somewhere else or you can't come for to work with us or whatever, we will help you connect with someone. We, we will try to do that. DaringVentures.com you can find us pretty easily there. But then once you get some help, some support. The first marker, the first like goal that I put in front of people is a formal therapeutic disclosure process. Yeah. And there's a whole bunch of brain science to this and you know, we can, we can get in that if you want to but, but basically when someone discovers that their history is not what they thought it was, it sends their brains into this primal state of panic that needs relief. It needs the data to come down out of this state of hyper vigilance. It's not obsession, it's not lack of forgiveness, it's not mere rumination. It is a, it is a just primary survival seeking response. It is survival. I. Because if I don't understand what has happened to me and how I've been threatened in the past, how can I possibly predict and anticipate a coming threat? Yeah. And that's our brain's number one job, is to keep us safe.

It's God given. We literally are built with that.

Yeah. Yes, yes. And, and so it seems, you know, some, some people I've talked to, they're like Wait, you mean telling her more. She found out and it hurt her so much. So me giving her more of that data is going to help? Yes, because what that betrayed partner. And I'm sorry, I'm using pronouns he and she, because it can go both ways. Betrayed men can be betrayed as well. The way a betrayed partner's mind is working is it is spinning, trying to fill in the gaps, and that part of your brain is going to fill them in with worst case scenario. And so it can be so relieving. Painful, yes. But simultaneously relieving to be given all the data, all the information.

Yeah. I think that's another paradigm shift, a change of our mindset. Because when I think a lot of strugglers or addicts, the betraying spouse hears that, they feel like the point of disclosure is. It's like confession. I got to get it all out there. It's about me. It's about my shame and guilt and all this bad stuff I've done. When really a more helpful perspective is to say, no, this is actually intended to help my betrayed spouse have all the information to stop going down the rabbit trails, to know what they're actually dealing with. So that, you know, I've described it as you're creating a floor of the hole that you're in. Because if you have a floor, you can start building up, but if the hole just keeps going and the spouse doesn't know how deep it goes, you know, my wife described it in that season of our marriage, like falling down a hole and not knowing how deep or when the bottom's gonna hit. And so disclosure, if we could see, it's like, man, the goal here is to help my spouse have the full story so that we can start rebuilding from somewhere that might give them the courage they need to actually enter into the process and not just have it be this shame ridden, like, well, they're just trying to dig out all the worst stuff from me. It's like, well, yeah, that may have to come out as part of the process, but the goal isn't to shame you or to find out how bad you are. The goal is let's figure out what we're dealing with so that we can rebuild.

Absolutely. Imagine, Imagine I've used this with clients before. Imagine you're in business with someone who's also like a best friend. Right. You're in business with this guy who, who he was a childhood best friend. You have been in business 20 years together, and all of a sudden you find out he's been stealing, he's Been embezzling from the business. Well, first of all, you might say, I'm out, I'm done. You're right. But because of this parallel relationship of he means a lot to you, you've been in each other's lives so long, maybe you'll entertain the partnership. But would you do that if he's not willing to say, here's exactly what I did. Yeah, no, and how much more. So we're not talking about money in a business thing. We're talking about a marriage vow. We're talking about the deepest, most intimate, vulnerable part of our being, our sexuality. Yeah. You know, if, if, if my partner is going to choose to stay with me, it is ridiculous to think she's going to do that if I'm not willing to open up and say, here's exactly what I did and how I did it. I'm not talking about a gross level of detail or anything like that, but, but not withholding the data.

Well, and that's where what you said, a therapeutic disclosure is key because I think many couples do think, well, let's just do this. And they roll into that on their own, you know, at home one night, and it's all coming out and there is, there's too much detail or not enough. There's blaming, there's blame shifting. There's all sorts of other things that come in. And without that therapeutic support, it can be very damaging. And so that's why we really encourage, if at all possible, go see the specialist. You know, this is a very hard area. And so work it with someone that's been there before, that has some tools and some standards and some approaches that can help give you the best possible outcome in a very, very challenging situation. So, Jake, in a marriage, when, when this has happened, when there's been sexual addiction and betrayal, what are some things that you would say both spouses need in that season as they're moving towards repair? Because we've talked about find a specialist, you know, and, and so those might be the obvious answers, like, well, go to a counselor, get in a group. What are other things that people need for support that maybe they, they haven't thought about in that season of recovery?

Yeah, I, I do think beyond just like a specialist. And you did mention a group, but I, I do want to unfold that a little bit. I think a community of support, a network of support, a tribe of others who are on this journey is, is, is really critical. Like, we can't do it alone. And in fact, a lot of the healing comes through Those relationships, a lot of people who struggle with sexual addiction, it's because they, they lack healthy attachment relationships in their lives. And so right away, if you can start getting into healthy community where you can be known, be fully known and still love, and you can begin to experience what, what that's like to be in what clinically we would call a secure attachment relationship. That's, that's more than just a nice fluffy thing to get to say, oh, yeah, I enjoyed it. We now know, I mean the, the realm of developmental neurobiology and affect regulation theory, we know that literally impacts and changes your nervous system. It changes your capacity to, to self regulate your own emotions, identify your own emotions, which is the basis for then being able to express empathy to another person. Which, to return to your question, that would be another like critical component. Critical step is, I think that there has to be empathy developed on the part of the, the one who committed the betrayal and then expressed to the one who was betrayed. That's not going to sound like defense. It's not going to sound like defending your intent. While I didn't mean to, it's not going to sound like explanations. It's not going to sound like, you know, blame shifting, none of that. It's gonna, it's gonna sound like I hurt you so badly. I took so much. I see how afraid you are, how hurt you are, how much, how angry you are, and it makes sense to me. And you know what? I'd rather be with you in your pain than not with you at all. Yeah. Thank you for letting me be here with you in your pain. Yeah. Right. And those are, that's hard to do that. A lot of people we work with have to fight every impulse in their bodies. But I say early on, beginning to build those, those capacities is crucial. Now that can't happen without sobriety from the acting out behaviors. Yeah. Yeah. Which I should have started with, actually.

Yeah. In some ways that can go, you know, without being mentioned, but it is worth mentioning for sure. I think one of the things that you were talking about with the community, the secure attachment, those relationships, I think one of the reasons that's so helpful is because oftentimes when you're going through something, your spouse should be that person that you're having those conversations with at a very deep, intimate level. But when there's that rupture in the relationship, that person's no longer safe and that's gotta come out somewhere. And you know, in my experience with going through therapy, like, it's great that my therapist understands he's able to talk me through the situation. He's able to empathize, give me tools and thoughts. But there is a level of like, you're not in my day to day. I pay you to like, you know, for your expertise to help me. But unless I'm having that play out in horizontal relationships with people in my life, in my community, then that actual. I think it's that horizontal experience of the vertical love of the father. We don't get that quite the same way. And so I feel like you have to have an outlet to be able to talk about your experience and then also to be able to receive that acceptance or that empathy and understanding from someone else. For both partners, I think is super key.

100%. Yeah. And, and, and you're right, like the, the person you betrayed is not the person to turn to for empathy or encouragement or cheerleading early on. Right. I mean, that day may come, you know, and, and I've met a lot of just. I would call them brave, heroic, you know, betrayed partners who actually sincerely desire and, and, and do express some of that at some point in the journey. But you know what, it's also important for a lot of when the, when it's a man who did the betraying to build these relationships, these meaningful relationships with other men. Because so often one of the things we see is they've never learned to be connected in a healthy, vulnerable, intimate way with other men. Yeah. And the reality is only a man can make you feel like a man. I mean, that's. You know, look across cultures, across different times, you know, in human history, there have been these, these rituals of, you know, entry into masculinity or entry into femininity, entry into manhood or womanhood. And it was never the women that led the boys in to manhood. And, and so sometimes part of what that inner drive has been for a lot of, a lot of men in their sexual addiction, that, that unhealthy. Well, it was a healthy drive that was being. You tried to. They tried to meet it in unhealthy ways. The solution is actually they got to get connected to other men.

Okay, so this is a, a pretty standard question, I think, that we get really from both partners, but especially on the front end, I think we get from the addicted or struggling spouse is how long will repair take after injury? And just what are your thoughts on that question? I know there's a lot of different perspectives on that, and I'm sure that's actually not an easy question to answer. But when someone asks how do you respond?

Basically, yeah. It's not an easy question, but it is a really important question because you're right. I. I hear that one a lot. All in fact, almost every couple that I do an initial intake with, that's a. That comes up. And the first thing I say about it is that when. When we're in a state of trauma, shock, threat, we go to black and white thinking. Okay. And that question itself is set up in such a way that it's a. It's a little bit based on some polarized thinking. Like one day repair will happen. Check, you know, there's been rupture and then there will be repair. Yeah. And it will be a zero or a one. Right. And it's. It's not that way. So there are degrees of repair. And actually the felt sense of repair is going to ebb and flow maybe for the rest of your life. Because rupture and repair is not unique to sex addiction, betrayal, trauma. It's the human experience. In fact, you could see the gospel through the lens of rupture and repair. So it's not. So if we're in polarized thinking of we're in rupture and we need to get to repair, that's a little bit unhelpful. So we're going to be moving toward repair. We're going to experience degrees of repair for some time until we get back to a place where this wound isn't so raw, insensitive that it's running our lives. Okay, now, how long will that take? The standard answer in the field is three to five years. Okay. I have a bit of a different take on that, because the more traditional models of treatment were set up such that the partners are sort of separated from each other initially. And it was thought that you're not going to do marital therapy or couples work around this until you've first done individual work. And in the very traditional models here, you might go a year or 18 months or 2 years individually before you ever really start couples work. That is. That's just so painful, it's excruciating for a lot of couples. Now, I will say a lot of betraying partners or addicted partners, they actually kind of like it because they get to avoid some really hard conversations. They get to avoid facing a lot of shameful, you know, topics and that sort of thing. But here's the deal. I believe. So I created a model called couple centered recovery. And I believe that if you take the most primary relationship in your life, your marriage, and you put it at the center of the recovery process. It will be messier, it will be harder, it will cost you more up front, but it will speed this process up because a lot of the stuff that you're not going to do until 18 months or two years in, start it right away. Not right away. Right away. Okay. I mean, we're.

There is a progress, a clarifying question too with that. Would you say that that model is done best with a professional helping them through that? So it's not something they're just doing on their own, gung ho, running in, no idea what they're doing. They're going to try it. That's not what you're suggesting.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's a whole, I have a whole model here. In fact, last week I two full days of training with other clinicians and coaches in this model. So I mean, there's a very clear clinical path around this because issues around safety and vulnerability and power imbalance and boundaries, I mean, all of that has to be thought through. But I do believe our experience is, I don't have, I don't have peer reviewed research on this yet, although I do have some doctoral students who are hopefully going to be coming out with some soon. But, but anecdotally, what I can say is that I've seen couples who, who start with that kind of relational emphasis early on, actually cut that three to five year timeline in half and experience healing a lot sooner.

Yeah. You know, a lot of times when I hear this question, what I hear underneath it, and I'll be honest to say, typically from men that I'm in group with, what they're really asking is how long is she going to be mad at me? Or how long until we get back to normal? And I try to tell them, well, your normal wasn't that good, so getting back to normal isn't the goal. Or they're asking when will we get back to the regular amount of sex that I would like or prefer? And a lot of that I try to help them understand depends on you. And it depends on the work you're doing. It depends on how well you're learning empathy. It depends on how much you are owning what you've done and recognizing the harm and how you know how radical you are being about your recovery to not continue acting out behavior so that they learn to see, or they start to see safety in you and reliability and dependability. And then some of it is totally out of your control. Because what happens in a relationship, you know, when there is rupture it taps into that betrayed spouse's story as well. And they may have other elements from their family of origin, from their childhood, from other relationships that could be compounding the problem and the trust issues. And so you are part of the equation. That's what I try to encourage. Like, you're asking how long? And I want you to know that a lot of the how long is up to you and the level of work you're doing, how serious you're taking it. And there's another part of the how long that you have no control over, because you do have a spouse that's their own person and is on their own pathway. And all you can do is everything within your power to set them up to take their journey as well. But their journey may have its own timeline, depending on what's complicated this for them, what they're working through. And so it's an invitation I always give to these men of, like, if you would just lean all in to your recovery and to understanding empathy and growing your relationship muscles, you give yourself the best opportunity to shorten that timeline to get to a healthier place in your relationship. But some of it is not in your control because you're talking about two people. And so anytime we're asking a timeline question where, like you said, Jake, we want to put a check mark out there to go, well, at two years, six months, and 14 days, we will reach this new place where we no longer have pain or struggle. Like, well, it's not that clean and simple. There's a process, it's a journey, it's ongoing. But again, if we'll lean into what we can control and give it our very highest level of attention, we can, I think, impact that timeline more than we realize.

Totally.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what you just described there is, you know, I talk about living the serenity prayer. I mean, you. You just articulated. Right. Except the things that I can't. I can't change, I can't control that. There's a part of this that. But I've got to have the courage to change the things I can. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah. And, yeah.

And so much of life is that control what you can control?

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, we already talked about it a little bit. But what else would you say about just the role that groups play in the repair of a relationship? Because I think for some people, they maybe see groups as primarily. Well, group is the place I go for my support, my, you know, my peers, my accountability. But what role does that group where we're likely doing it separately Men with men and women with women. What role can that play in our recovery of the relationship and of a marriage?

Yeah, it's huge. It's absolutely huge. And in fact, research shows that groups end up being one of the most effective components of a healthy, robust, successful recovery process. Now, I want to be clear. I'm not saying that they can always take the place of individual therapy or couples therapy or that one on one work, having a sponsor, whatever, not saying groups alone will do it, but when I now I only work with couples, but back when I saw men individually for sex addiction recovery work, I, I as quickly as possible got them in a group and I as quickly as possible helped them design their recovery so that the group was central so that their one on one therapy with me was not right for a lot of reasons. You know what, I'm just one guy. And you know what else? I cost a lot more than a group, you know, and, and you know what else? I don't want them calling me at 10pm I can't have all my clients calling me after hours. Yeah, but if they're in a group and they're connect. So there's just, there's so many reasons, but the most profound is, is what I, what I referred to earlier and that is the healing that can, that can be experienced in healthy community. There's a quote and I'm going to blank. Oh. Harvl Hendricks, who created Imago Therapy, I believe he said we're injured. You know, we're born into a relationship, we're injured in relationship and then we're healed in relationships.

Yeah, I know, for me it's a part of my story too, but it's like training ground for real, authentic relationship. And I think that that happened when shame was diminished. When shame went down, I was more willing to be open and experience what real intimate relationship looked like in relationships where that rupture had not happened. And so I was able to experience it on like a normal kind of. It's not a normal reason necessarily that I'm in the group, but I'm experiencing a normal relationship of, I think how God intended relationships to look like. And so in some ways it almost becomes like a training ground or practice that I take back into my marriage. I'm learning how to be more authentic. I'm learning how to be more vulnerable, how to be empathetic, how to listen, all those things. I know for me that was a huge part of why group was so helpful.

Huge.

Yeah, absolutely. There are a lot of topics in this category That I think are just easier to see through the window than in the mirror. And when I would hear other guys talk about their marriage or something they did and their wife got mad, I was like, well, yeah, duh. And then it's like, oh, wait, I kind of do that too. Okay. And it seems so clear when another guy talks about it. So there's value that comes in other people's stories and experience and good and bad. I would say the same thing when they had a period of growth or something that really helped in their marriage to be able to take that heart and go, oh, I see how that could help me. When we're just working with a therapist, all we have is ourselves to kind of compare to. And any story the therapist might tell us, which can be great, but if we don't have kind of that same journey being lived out around us, it's just harder to see. And so I think that's a huge benefit that group plays.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting to think you cannot find, or I've yet to find, a biblical metaphor or image of being a Christian that isn't a community based metaphor. Right, right. Like we're members of a body. We're stones in a living temple. We're sheep in a flock. We're.

Right.

I mean, like, we're sons and daughters in a family. Every single one is community based. That is not accidental. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's profound.

Okay.

We've taken up a lot of your time. We've got two more questions for you, and this is another good question. And it's, what guidance would you give to somebody who there's been rupture in their relationship, but only one of the partners wants to pursue healing. Whether it's the struggler who's like, I just gotta. I gotta get after this. I gotta struggle. I gotta take care of this struggle. And the betrayed partner's like, I want nothing to do with this process. Or on the other side, the betrayed partner sees I need healing and the addict doesn't. What guidance do you give people in that situation?

Yeah, it's. It's actually the same guy. As though it will be walked out very differently depending on which side of that relationship you're on. And that is. It kind of goes back to that living the serenity prayer thing. You can't. You can't make your partner do anything. You focus on yourself and you don't focus on what you do. Don't focus on what to do. Focus on who you want to be. Okay. Start with identity and so, you know, this is why I use a lot of values, work, you know, core values. Who do. Who do you want to be? Who is God calling you to be? Who are you most truly, you know, at your best self? You know, my. My core values in my life are courage, kindness, humility, and joy. You know, that's who I want to be. And then I am going to give 110% in every situation, regardless of how the other person is showing up to being that person. Yeah. Now, that doesn't mean be a doormat. That doesn't mean you don't have boundaries. And in fact, it might be the most kind and courageous thing you can do to set a boundary. If you're the betrayed partner. Best thing for you. Best thing for your partner who betrayed you. Right. So don't oversimplify this, but you've got to start with your own identity and doing the work yourself. And here's what will happen. It will be incredibly clarifying for you and the other person. And when. Because two people form a system called the dyad, and one can't change without it affecting the system. Yep. And as you grow and change, the other person might go, wow.

Oh. Huh.

Okay, that looks different. That looks like it's maybe trustworthy. And they. They may find themselves moving, shifting, changing. As a result, they may go, I want no part of that. But it's still going to be clarifying. It's still going to be clarifying. Same thing. If you're the betrayed partner and you begin living these values, which may include using your voice in a way that you haven't before and setting boundaries and that kind of thing, doing that is going to give you more data as you see the other person respond to your changes. Yeah.

What you said, Jake, I think, reminds us that the word co dependence still has a place, I think, in recovery. And I know we've moved away from co addiction and codependence as a model, but there is still, and I think maybe more particular for the addict or the struggler. There's a level of codependence that says, I can't be okay with me unless you're okay with me. And that's kind of emotional entanglement. And a lot of us grew up in families that were emotionally entangled, and we kind of learned that. And so in our recovery, we may be bringing that into recovery of, well, I can't be okay. I can't recover unless you affirm me, love me, you're okay with me. And the truth is, no, there's Actually, some really appropriate, healthy separation that I can be okay in Christ and in who I am and what God is doing in my life. Even if you're still angry, bitter, judgmental, critical, whatever's going on in the other person. And just like you said, because we're in relationship, that will actually give the best chance for there to be healing if I'm able to bring my best self, not dependent on you, to make me okay. Because then, then I can give and love and serve and be present just out of who I am, not because I'm trying to get something from you. And that's ultimately what every relationship needs, is I can be me for me and not to get something out of you.

Which, ironically, is liberating on multiple levels. It's not just liberating from the addictive pattern, but it's liberating to become, to your point, Jake, who God intended me to be, who I was created to be, who I want to become. And there's neuroscience in that, too, that you can't just unlearn a habit. You have to learn something else in place of that. I think of Colossians, the put on and take off. There's this dual nature to changing behaviors or changing perspective. But yeah, we get this question all the time because it honestly is offset at times where one spouse is ready to do it and enter into it. But I've heard so many stories of either the struggling spouse or. And I think honestly, the more encouraging one is the betrayed partner who's like, you know what? I like what I'm seeing and I can't stay here. I gotta catch up to what's happening.

So, Jake, we've loved having you on, and this is a huge topic. And any number of these questions we could have done a whole podcast on. And there's.

And we might, we might.

There's series of these out there. But as we get to wrap up our time with you today, what are just some final words of encouragement, direction, advice you might give to a couple in particular that is walking through this season of repair as they look to overcome the rupture and build something new in their lives and marriage?

Yeah. So two things come to mind for the addicted or betraying partner. Humility, like being humble in this process, is gold. It is essential. Cultivate humility. And one way to actually take on a posture of humility is to be a good learner. Be open to knowing that you don't know everything. Be open to knowing that you can grow in various skills and capacities relationally with your Emotions with your communication and all of that, and. And become a student. Become a humble student here. I'm gonna. I'm gonna point people, you know, shameless plug here, but go to my. My YouTube channel, Dr. Jake Porter on YouTube, because it is my joy and my passion to put out tons of free resources like there. There are hours and hours and hours and hours and hours of videos that, you know, I want people to. To benefit from and just go learn. Go, go, go. Get to know what you don't know. Yeah. If you're the betrayed partner, courage, you know, I think. I think courage is. Is key. It's essential in this, and it's the courage to face the reality of what's happened. It's the courage to make choices. Even if none of the choices are in front of you right now. Are choices you want.

Yeah.

There's still the choices you have. And the only way. If you're in a place where you don't like the choices you have, the only way to get to a place where you do is to start executing the choices you do have. And it stinks. You know, like, I can validate that. It stinks to high heaven, but, you know, be. Be brave and act on the choices you have. Yeah. And. And that will move you toward healing.

Jake, this has been awesome, man. We really appreciate your time. We know you got more stuff. You're a busy guy, but really appreciate your heart, appreciate the work. And I think it's clear from our conversation that repair is absolutely possible. And the two big things that really stand out from our conversation, just to kind of remind people, is that finding a professional, someone who has expertise in this area is so key. And then also that you talked about describing it as a secure attachment, relationship community. So a group getting into that, that context is so helpful. Thank you, man, for your time, for your work, all of it.

Appreciate you. Thank you for having me. It's been an honor. I appreciate you guys and all the work you do and just grateful to be here with you. Yeah.

Thanks. And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody, and write us a review. If you want more information on our groups, resources, or counseling, go to PureDesire.org and lastly, never stop being healthy.