366 - Betrayal Triggers

Foreign. Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from porn. Hello. Hello. I am your host Trevor Windsor and you're listening to episode 365 of the Pure Desire podcast. Here joining me as always is my co host Nick Stembo.

And the rockets red glare.

Do I salute or do I cover my heart? Yes, our producers just clapping in the background. Hey pal, that hits the audio wave. So, okay, I, I don't know. When does this episode come out? Is that why you're doing that? Let me look. When does this come out? This come out? Fourth of July.

I have no idea. Around there.

Okay.

Before. It's not why I did it though.

It's close. Okay, so yeah, we'll just get into it. We had Ashley Jameson on specifically to talk about betrayal triggers.

Yeah, it's interesting how in our Star Spangled Banner we kind of glamorize those words and you know, to us it's fireworks and things exploding in the sky. Oh, this is so pretty and beautiful. But like those lines are describing some pretty traumatic things like a fort being bombed, young men dying, sacrificing life and limb for our country. You know, at a time when medical care was like non existent. I mean rockets and bombs, like there was huge trauma. And I was thinking about that in terms of the discussion today. There are ways we can kind of glamorize the recovery process and the focus can be overly on the struggling or addicted spouse of man. We gotta stop the behavior and get them better. And yes, that's true, but there's a marriage that's impacted, there's a betrayed spouse and betrayal is serious and real and takes time to recover from. And I think today's episode was an invitation to people to really lean into that betrayal side of the triggers that are created and that it might be a long road of facing those triggers and we shouldn't just glamorize like, oh, they're all going to get through it and he's doing so much better. That's kind of the church like, well, he's had, he's not making those choices anymore and you forgave him. So aren't you all better? Like trauma's real trauma takes time and a lot of that comes out in triggers. And so we talked about it today and I just hope whether you're on the betrayal side or the trigger or the struggling side, it's really insightful to think about the recovery process and what we can both do to heal and to enter into a new normal. You know, we've said that at Pure Desire for a long time. We're not here to stop a behavior. We're here to change the way you do life. And that means ultimately doing life in a new way, defining a new normal. And I think today's conversation will really help people maybe take those next steps on that healing road.

Yeah. And today's episode was actually inspired by a question sent in by one of our listeners. And I think it's a good opportunity to say it, that if you have questions for us or think you have an episode or something for an FAQ, just please send it in. Send it to podcasturedesire.org yeah, because that email led to, I think, a really good discussion and conversation today with Ashley. So let's get into it. Here's our conversation with Ashley Jamison on betrayal triggers. Ashley Jameson, welcome back. We're glad to have you with your new backdrop. So we'll just tell people they should definitely watch this episode with the beautiful backdrop. Thanks for being here.

I'm really glad to be here talking about this today. It's a good subject.

Yeah. We are exploring a very real topic and one that we haven't touched on maybe a number of different times in different episodes, but not specific to one episode. And this was actually a suggestion from a listener named Brittany. She had some questions about managing betrayal triggers, which I think is super relatable and very normal for betrayed partners. And so to start, I'm actually just gonna. The question that she sent in, and this is her question. How do you handle family vacations during the healing process? I feel like I never want to go to the beach with my husband again, even hiking, where we've passed by lots of people in the past wearing skimpy bikinis to hike in. I feel like everywhere we go, he'll be triggered sexually, and my trauma will be triggered, and the kids will just be stuck dealing with the effects of our emotions as we try to not let them see what's going on. I don't know what to do or how to handle this going forward. Like I said, super relatable. And so we're gonna take Brittany's question and unpack it with our time today. Let's start with this. I think a lot of people understand to some degree what the word trigger means, and it can maybe be more in regards to recovery or addiction or emotional trigger. But in the betrayal category, how would we define what a trigger is? What does that look like?

Mm. So it's. It's a Shift in how we're thinking and feeling. So if you think of a trigger as a change, like a change of the state of your body and becoming maybe more aroused and around, not meaning sexually, but just like hyper arousal, it. Some people would say, like maybe going limpic, where you can feel that shift mentally and usually physically. So for me, it's blushing, feeling very hot in the face, or having a racing heartbeat or maybe like that gut feeling that you get or the tightness in your chest. And. And so you might identify it by the physical symptoms or you might identify it by the mental, emotional symptoms of shutting down or having racing thoughts or feeling yourself, withdrawal. And so I guess, I mean, to sum it up, is just a change in your physical mental state would be a trigger. And usually negative. It's usually used in a negative way.

Totally.

Well, and this is an area where our kind of public awareness of something like post traumatic stress disorder can be helpful to think about some similarities, because I think we've all seen, whether in movies or personal experience or people we know, if someone comes back from serving in a war or a war torn country and they have some ptsd, like a loud noise, a bang, and something that might mimic explosion, what it's doing is it's reminding the brain of that danger, that very real dangerous situation where something traumatic was happening. And it's a defense mechanism to protect you from being hurt again. Now the challenge is the brain does that so that in the, you know, if you were still in the war situation, you hear an explosion, you have heightened arousal, you're reacting, you're responding immediately to do what you need to do. But if, you know, back home, it's because someone flipped on the garbage disposal and it made a loud noise and you're jumping under the table, it's like, okay, the brain has to learn to decipher between a real threat and a reminder of the past threat. And so even when you read Brittany's question, that was some of what I was thinking about is for a betrayed spouse, there are very real traumatic, hurtful things that happen. And it's very normal and okay. That the brain is now on high alert for that pain to happen again. But like ptsd, there is a process here of discerning what are real threats that I do need to have an appropriate response to so I'm not hurt again. And what are just reminders but are not actually a threat. You know, and so if a betrayed spouse, and we might use women generally, because that's more often the case, but it could be Men as well. If a betrayed spouse feels triggered every time they see some of the opposite gender that fits a certain look or profile, that may be reminding you the pain, but that's not a fair trigger. That may be something that needs to be faced and figured out, okay, why does this happen? And how can I deal with that in a healthy way? So just a thought where we all understand, I think to a degree, PTSD and thinking of some of the similarities for a betrayed spouse can actually be helpful.

Well, and to Brittany's question, like, if your spouse or partner was, you know, struggled with sexual addiction and sexually acting out or had affairs, seeing someone wearing revealing clothing, you know, in a setting that maybe, you know, when you go on a hike, you don't think, oh, I'm going to be emotionally triggered. And so it can. As I'm reading Brittany's question, it's like, no, that makes total sense that you would get triggered in that moment, especially if it's early on in the process. Like, I think that right after discovery in those first initial months, even year, I think that that's pretty standard to feel that. But even Nick, as you're saying, I think time is also a factor in that ptsd. And that question, too, is like, how long has it been? How much of the healing process have we gone through? But I know we're going to unpack more of that as we keep going.

Yeah. So, Ashley, what would you say are some of the signs of betrayal trigger in a person's life, and how do we identify those betrayal triggers and maybe name them as such?

Yeah, And I think to kind of what Trevor said about the time I can see women that have their disclosure, discovery, their, you know, crisis in their marriage was 20 years ago. And it's the same thing with addiction. If you don't actively engage in that recovery, healing, that healing process to deal with the betrayal trauma, then you can still be living fully in your betrayal trauma and be living. Let your triggers kind of just rule you years later. And that's why it's important that even though the betrayed spouse is not the one who caused this, it's still so important that they engage in healing, join a betrayal and beyond group, get counseling. Because like you're saying, Nick, it's real trauma that happens to our mind and body, and. And we need to be able to unpack that, you know, in a safe area. So some of the ways that you can have signs, I guess, of betrayal triggers is if you're really, I guess, reactive to things, you feel yourself kind of Being pulled quickly. So, like I had already said, you have the physical symptoms, racing heart, that kind of gut feeling, being in your head all of the time, shutting down, being silent, having a lot of anxiety, not being able to sleep, sleep. Some women, including myself, it was like lashing out at your children. Like your. Your anger is misdirected. And I don't remember if it was Trevor or the summit planning team because I'll be doing a session on betrayal at the summit. And I had said, oh, I'm sure God's going to give me some raw material to work with, because that's usually how he works. And sure enough, these last few weeks, I had some betrayal triggers of my own. And so I'm like, yes, this is how it feels. And there was a few day period where. Where I experienced a trigger and I was starting to feel like, maybe identify some things that were triggering me, such as walking to a room and the phone goes down really quickly. Like, that's a trigger for me and probably for a lot of people because, like, well, what was the hurry to put your phone down? But I had so much going on with my family and my mom and a flooded RV in a flooded house. I was like, and then my anniversary is coming. I cannot deal with this. And so I just took all that stuff and I put it up on a nice shelf. And I was like, I'm going to unpack this on Friday. But when we did unpack it on Friday, I was able to share with John. It was a good reminder to me how I used to always live because I was able to put it on the shelf. But I kept feeling myself, like, wanting to take it down, wanting to take it down, questioning every little thing. And until I took it down and unpacked it with him, and we talked through some things and made some plans to make me feel more safe. I felt myself living in that triggered state. State. Even though it was intentional. It was an intentional plan. But it is. I was more snappy with the kids. I wasn't sleeping as well. My chest was tight, My gut was all messed up. And just everything was going through that filter. And so I guess to answer the question, the science can be really subtle. And that's why we need a group. Like, we need to be able to verbalize what we're saying out loud. We need to be able to hear other sp. Betrayed spouses say things and then start recognizing what's normal. Because if you ask a betrayed spouse if they're experiencing a betrayal trigger or living in trauma, they may not know if that's how normal has been for them for two decades. And. And it's not until they're able to step out of it and they go back into it and say, oh, this is horrible. I know, you know, this is really eye opening that I'm in a triggered state right now.

That's. I think it's important too, with that having community around us, whether it is a group or trusted friends. In a recent episode, just the. The idea was brought up like a secure, attached relationship, someone who knows you at an intimate level. I feel like one of the things, and this is also an indicator of trauma is when you overreact or underreact to something. I think that that is something that other people can see really clearly. When something really big happens and there isn't much of a reaction, it's like, okay, well, there's something going on here, or something very, very small that is completely unrelated. There's this huge reaction. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, let's back up. Like there's something happening here under the surface that's a little bit bigger. And so I think that that's what's important about having community is it's hard to see that in ourselves. But if we're around other safe people, they're able to say like, hey, I noticed that this really significant traumatic thing happened today and you didn't seem to react at all. Can we talk about that? Can we unpack that? I feel like that's impossible to do without other people, especially early on in the process.

Yeah, we've talked about a lot. Emotions are indicators. And if you're feeling strong, intense fear, strong, intense anger, feel like you're reverting back into a state of self protection that it was associated with discovery or disclosure. It's like, okay, that's an indicator of a trigger. And it could be, I would also want to point out, it could be something a person is doing, your spouse specifically, or it could just be the environment you're in. So like, back to the question. Maybe in this question about being on the hike, her husband didn't do anything to glance or even notice other hikers. But that environment of seeing people and revealing clothing and that feel like. So the circumstance or environment can create triggers. And those in some ways may be even more challenging because you have to determine, can I change the circumstance or do I need to work on my response? It's sometimes easier if it's what a person is doing. Oh, I noticed you really changed. And we're looking at Them or you were, it seemed like pursuing that. I. I would need you to know that creates a trigger response in me. That may not be an easy conversation, but at least you can talk to the person and work on it. If it's about your environment, you have to really determine, like, what environments can we be in. And going back to what you said, Trevor, about timing, there are things, and I would say this about our recovery. There were things that my wife and I chose not to do in the first year or two of recovery because the environment, either for my wife in the betrayal triggers or for me in the recovery triggers, we just said that's not a good environment for us, that then later we went back to or were able to do again. And that, I think is a normal part of recovery that there may be places you avoid because the circumstances it's going to be triggering regardless of the health level and response of your spouse. So just be aware. People and environments both can be a part of our triggers.

Totally. So with, I think, Nick, you're kind of getting into it, that idea of putting boundaries around things. But once we've identified some of these triggers, how do we manage them? Like, what kind of practices or tools can help us not just identify the betrayal trigger, but then figure out what to do with it when it happens?

Yeah, I think to start with, you absolutely have to have a counselor that's betrayal, trauma informed, understands partner sensitivity or betrayal, and beyond group, because we need to be able to have somebody that we can process these things out loud so then we can get to the meat of what we need. And so if I'm feeling really triggered, I may need to sit down and journal what I'm thinking and what I'm feeling and then kind of distill all my thoughts down to what is it? That's my question for John. Or what is it that I'm needing to feel safe again? Because if I'm just like all over the place and have it sorted through what I'm feeling, then it gets a little overwhelming and it's. I don't think it's as effective as processing that first with somebody that you trust or journaling it out or working in one of your workbooks and then identifying what triggered me. When do I remember feeling that way before? Because you probably can connect it back to an experience in your marriage. What. What do I need to share with my spouse? So, like, for me, what do I need to share with John? Like, how was I triggered? Exactly what happened? When do I remember feeling that way before? And how is it making me feel unsafe? And then what would I need going forward based off his response in order to feel safe again? And going back to like, what are signs of being triggered? I think sexually we can notice when we're, when something's off because that's an overflow of the, the emotional intimacy. So if we're noticing that we're feeling very fearful or disengaged or insecure during sex, then it might be an indicator that there's something going on that we haven't unpacked yet. And that's why having a group is so important. So you can have physical things that you do, like deep breaths to calm yourself down. Like you were saying, Trevor, we can be hyper or hypo aroused out of our window of tolerance. And so trying to get ourselves back in that window of tolerance before we process this with our spouse would be a good idea. And so heavy blankets or taking a bath or going on a walk, for me, getting out of my home environment is really good. Like if it's a really bad trigger or relapse even I may go stay the night in a hotel or with a friend and just kind of remove myself and be able to think clearly because it does put me back in that window of tolerance. And then, and then the communication piece between you and your spouse. And so hopefully you have a spouse that's really engaged in the healing process and you're able to line out, these are the ways that I'm feeling triggered, these are the ways I'm feeling unsafe. And either they're going to respond, clarifying some things that put you at ease, and maybe it's only a conversation that needed to take place, or they're going to say, yes, this has been a struggle, or what can I do to help avoid triggering you in the future? Or like you said, Nick, maybe it wasn't something they did. They may have a response of, do we need to avoid going hiking for a while until you feel confident, you know, confident that you'll be okay on that hike. So group or counseling seems like the first place to go because there's different paths depending on where you're both at in your recovery.

Yeah. It's important to develop some self awareness around, is this a real threat or a perceived threat that is triggering me? And so there are real threats that may come of if he's breaking a boundary that you've established around his sobriety and you're feeling triggered. Well, that's actually a real threat. Like that's why the boundary is there. Because you've seen a consistent pathway of what that leads to. And that feeling triggered is an indicator we need to deal with this or I need to take some action because my boundaries or what we've established as a couple is not being honored and that that is a fearful place to be. Or, you know, he's not going to group, he's not doing his homework.

Right.

He's not fulfilling his commitments and I'm feeling triggered. Well, that's a real threat. And that's part of the brain saying, there's something here to pay attention to. Now, what steps you take next may have a lot to do with your own plans, what you've discussed in group or with a counselor or hey, if, if you're breaking a boundary here, steps that I'm going to need for my own well being or to protect myself. But it may be that perceived threat of, okay, it's not anything they've done, but it's an environment. It's something that just I'm feeling triggered. And then like Ashley said, I think to process it, what did I feel? What did it connect to? And what, what am I going to need to work through this? And I would just say quickly on the other side too. You know, my experience very much in that first couple years of recovery is anytime my wife would feel a betrayal trigger, it would lead to a shame trigger in me because she'd be like, oh, you know, she'd feel triggered. I'd be like, yeah, you know, all these things I've done and I feel bad and so there. And that wouldn't help because I would usually get either angry and defensive or withdraw and feel shameful. And I needed someone to help me see that just because she's triggered doesn't mean you've done something wrong. And that I needed to process those triggers as well. Now, if I was doing something wrong and her trigger was justified, that's another story. Like if I was breaking boundaries. But if sometimes it could just be I was on my phone and she felt triggered and I was doing nothing wrong. Okay, I needed to process, okay, I feel shame in that moment. I feel really sad about how I've hurt my wife. Okay, how do I, how do I grieve that, face that and not run away from it or get stuck in shame myself? Because that becomes a very dangerous pattern. It's kind of this, you know, self reinforcing cycle that the betrayed spouse is triggered and is angry and so the struggling spouse feels shame and is isolating and then is maybe breaking boundaries, which Reinforces the trigger for the betrayed spouse. And now you're just kind of in this very, very dangerous spiral. So just be aware that triggers on both sides of the relationship can play off one another. And so we both need self awareness.

And I think both need. I mean, both of them need this. But even more specifically, a betrayed partner needs. What you're talking about, Ashley, is self care and ways to self regulate. And I think that that's something that I know a lot of, if we're talking specifically women, especially Christian women. Self care is not something that tends to be something that's on the top of the list or top of the priorities. But it's one of those things that is going to be most helpful in managing those emotions and those triggers as they come. But to your point also, Nick, self care or those outer circle behaviors that we talk about with the three Circles tool, those are so important because those help you move in a right direction to put you in a better space and to regulate yourself and your emotions.

Yeah, yeah. So we talked about this a little bit, Ashley, but let's unpack it more now. What if the betrayed triggers are associated with certain places, things in our environment. People, for instance, partners have mentioned never wanting to go to a beach again or the gym with their spouse. What do we do with that? Do we never go to those places again? Or are there other options? What might that look like?

This is a good question. It's one and all. I think it depends on the couple. There might be things that you hear a couple say, we don't do that anymore because it's not good for our marriage. I mean, if couples had a tendency to spend their anniversary in Vegas and go to some shows and it's like, you know what? That's actually not good for a marriage. Like that just may not be a thing anymore. And that's okay to have areas of your marriage where you protect it fiercely and say, we don't do that, it's just not great for a marriage. But, but you hopefully want to get to a point where you're making those decisions together. I mean, you have to go through the recovery process and the betrayal healing process and then, you know, the working together process. And then hopefully you're identifying these areas together so that bitterness and resentment and feeling imprisoned or feeling controlling doesn't have to be part of your story. That you say, we've identified these things as no go zones for our marriage. And then other areas, like you said, Nick, and like I've experienced, they come off the table. Maybe in the first few years, like, like I've said before, John really could not go to the gym. It was just so traumatizing for me and it wasn't worth it because then I became like a parall parent and my kids just suffered the consequences. I couldn't cope. And it was also so triggering for him or like myself when I would go out dancing all the time, even though I wasn't like drinking and being wild, it was still a trigger for me. And so when I married John and he was like, I don't want you to go out to bars and go dancing. I didn't do that for 10 years. And then a Bible study group, Bible study fellowship group was like, we're gonna go dancing we for my 40th birthday. And so John and I talked about it, we went, I had a lot of fun. It was safe. I communicated really well with him the whole time. But still, even since then, I've maybe gone dancing like twice, you know, and it's been really just safe environments. And so that I would say that's kind of a never ish category. And every once in a while it's case by case and then John's able to go to the gym again. But if you have a couple where it's like every time I go to the gym, it's a relapse for me. I know you guys just did a podcast on edging that was really good. And it's like there are going to be some areas where it's like every time I go here, this happens. And so if that's part of your marriage, then you need to be bold enough and protect your marriage enough to say, is going to the gym, is going to the bar? Is that worth sacrificing my marriage and the health of my relationship? And then there may be a kind of compromise meet in the middle. How can we make this work? Maybe I don't value the gym over my marriage, but I see physical health and staying in shape as something I need for my self care. And so what are some other ways we can meet that need? Maybe I join an all men's kickboxing club or a CrossFit gym. That's for men. Or there's other options. Or we go to a secluded beach instead of a public beach. So yes to all of it. Yes, it might have to come off the table for a few years. Yes, it may come off the table forever and ever. Amen. And yes, there may be a compromise and a middle ground again though, this is the importance of having Group and outside voices to help both of you process. Somebody to get me to that point to say maybe it's time to let John try the gym again. With these special parameters in place. Somebody to tell John, maybe you need to take the gym off the table for a while and focus on your recovery. That we're having both of those supportive.

Voices and I feel like be creative here. You know, I was thinking about the gym. Like that is something that a lot of people do for self care and as a benefit that could be in that outer circle for an addict or a struggler is physical fitness. Helps me to like get the good dopamine and endorphins that I need. And so be creative. Like don't go to the gym anymore, cancel your membership, go to Facebook Marketplace, buy some dumbbells and do a garage gym or something. There are other ways to do it. And I feel like as specifically as a struggler or an addict, we can feel like that's really oppressive to our way of life or our attempts to be healthy. But the reality is, and I love that that's just what you said, Ashley, is that you're prioritizing your marriage. It doesn't mean that you're not prioritizing your health. You're just pivoting, changing, being flexible on how you do it so that it better serves you as a spouse. Yeah. Your own self care then also you're not putting your spouse on edge. Every time you leave the house. What's going to happen? Is he going to see somebody? Is he going to be triggered? Is he going to relapse? Like you can find way like this is what's great is that it's at least in my experience my home, garage, like gym not triggering.

You know what I mean?

Like it's maybe boring. I don't see my friends and do stuff. It's not quite the same experience. But be creative, you know. And I think that that goes a long way. I'll just say this from my perspective that has the ability to communicate. I value you as my spouse. I value our marriage and I also want to maintain physical health. Cause I know it's good for me. And so it creates kind of a best of both worlds. So the only reason I say all of that is just again you can be creative. You don't have to just be so singular focused.

Well this is where to the struggling spouse's three circles tool or recovery or relapse prevention plan is so key and so key that both spouses know it. Because I think what often Creates betrayal triggers is the betrayed spouse feels like they don't understand what needs to happen. They're not protecting me. So my brain is at work to protect myself. But if they see a recovery action plan, sorry, a relapse prevention plan, a three circles tool with boundaries that are very clear, that are very specific to past behaviors, to things that are triggering to them, and there's a good plan of how to communicate that, and both spouses know it, that may really help the betrayed spouse be able to calm those, you know, arousal, nerves and parts of the brain that are on high alert to go, oh, okay. If you're, you know, use the example maybe of travel, because I know that's been a big issue for a lot of people, like, well, you can never travel for work again. It's like, well, that could be an area for a season. Yeah, there's no travel. Or there may be some compromises of I only travel with a co worker of the same gender. Or when I travel, I always check in with my spouse. When I get to the hotel room, I take a picture of the remote control being given to someone else. I take some of those steps so they know, like, oh, you're going to be in good shape. And for the struggling spouse, you know, some of those things will be inconvenient for you. And I think I really battled this like, well, that that would, that'll be a little more challenging for me. And my wife's like, yeah, but it makes me feel safe. And so that was a realization for me. There are many things I can still do in a more healthy, appropriate way that I don't have to let go of forever. And if I'm willing to do them in that way, it not only protects my integrity, it helps my spouse see I'm protecting her feelings and her triggers. Because I think what happens in a lot of marriages is there are things that a betrayed spouse can feel triggered by that. The struggling spouse says, oh, well, that's not my issue specifically, and it may not be, but for whatever reason, the betrayed spouse has seen connection points, and I would argue they've seen connection points that you're still a little blind to. My wife was more aware of the connections than I was, and I had to be willing to sacrifice and lay those down for her benefit until I got healthy enough. I started to see, oh, there's a lot of wisdom in this, and I actually choose it for myself now. So all that to say, if you don't have a clear three circles tool that you and your spouse have talked about in the last month. And she's dealing with a lot of betrayal triggers. That's a part of it because she doesn't know what steps you're willing to take or are taking to protect your integrity and to protect her from being hurt again. So do yourself a favor, struggling spouse, addicted spouse, spouse, make those guardrails crystal clear and be willing to have that tough conversation with your spouse to commit to them and show them here's what I'm doing and invite their participation. And is there anything else I need to add? Because if you're both on the same page there, man, the freedom from triggers. And I'm not saying it's perfect or, you know, you'll never have a trigger again, but it can solve a ton of these, these issues.

Yeah, it makes it less of a guessing game. Ashley, one of the, I think most difficult aspects to this scenario is that our triggers can very easily impact others. And I'm thinking specifically, let's say, you know, it is the female who is a betrayed partner also is a mom. How can we, when we're experiencing betrayal triggers, still manage those day to day responsibilities and relationships without it kind of blowing up in our kids faces or with our friends or our community, our jobs? Like, how does a betrayed partner manage those? First, is it possible to manage those in a way that doesn't negatively impact people significantly? And if so, how do we do that?

Yeah, it's definitely possible, but it's, you know, going through trauma while you're doing life with others or, or harder, being a caregiver to others is so hard because it's like you're bleeding out while trying to bandage somebody else up. And I know for me, I like, anger was part of something that I had to work through and is part of my history. And I had suppressed anger as a betrayed spouse. I didn't know I was angry, but it came out sideways with my kids. And so even now when I'm feeling high stress, which is like 247 right now, I can feel, I can feel myself getting real edgy with my kids. The beautiful thing is I used to live like that all the time. And now I'm able to recognize like, wow, I'm really snappy, I'm really edgy. So having a tag team approach with your spouse, this is where the struggling spouse can really step up. And you know, they're not going through the, they may have the shame, definitely, but they're not going through that fresh betrayal trauma. And so I, you know, a lot of times we're not crazy at the same time with our friends or our spouses. And so if you can see that your betrayed spouse is really having a hard time snapping at the kids, just like staring off while making dinner and it's burning, it would be so great for you to be able to recognize that and step in and say, you know what, why don't you go take a break, why don't you go get a pedicure, why don't you go to Target, Why don't you go lay down and let me do this. Like, if you do that regularly, that, that really just shows something. It shows that you see them. It shows that you care. It shows that you recognize that you've maybe put her in this position to have to deal with these things or, or do extra homework and so, and then communication with your kids, I don't know how old they are, but you can have age appropriate communication that, you know, I'm really going through something. It has nothing to do with you. I don't want you to think that when I'm snapping and you know, I might lose my temper and yell at you or I'm zoning off or I'm not as playful as I normally am, that has anything to do with you. I'm going through something and I'm trying to deal with it. And so I'm, I'm apologizing in advance if I'm not completely available. And then do what you can to take the load off you. I know that some betrayed spouses, they don't have means, but take the help from your friends. You know, we in, in Dr. Barbara Stefan's training, she talks about casserole widow that, you know, when somebody dies or loses their, when somebody loses their spouse, the church or women will rally around and say, I'm bringing you this casserole. I'm bringing you, I'm going to help with your kids. But then when we experience betrayal, like maybe we just lost our husband of 30 years because he left us for his girlfriend. I mean that is just as, that's almost harder than death in some ways. And so, you know, to, to rally around your friends who are going through betrayal and say, let me bring you some meals because you just, you just discovered a new trigger. I had my group and my friends do that a few times and it was awesome. They're like, let me grab your kids and so you can deal with this and just like not have to be a parent today or let me bring you ice cream. Let me cook your kids dinner. So do that for Each other, do that for your spouse and then take the burden off, Take. Take pressure off. If you can't volunteer somewhere, if you need to hire a housekeeper for a season, I guess just clear your plate a little bit so you can give yourself lots of space to just be the best parent you can be and to be the best betrayed spouse, navigating your recovery and your healing without all the other things.

Yeah, it's okay to let this be a big deal.

Yeah.

And I think sometimes as humans, and maybe particularly as Americans, as Westerners, like, we just got a soldier on. Just keep doing your best, keep doing everything and kind of figure this out on the side. And it's like, there's a piece of this where betrayal, trauma and discovery and sexual brokenness in a marriage, like, it's a big deal and it is okay to take a deep breath and go, for a season, we're going to have to do things differently. And I remember Dr. Ted telling my wife and I that of, like, this needs to be your priority this year and you're going to need to do less in other areas. You're going to need to, you know, back out of some commitments. You're going to need to be less involved in certain things so that you have the time and space to walk through this. And so if you realize, man, this is impacting life around me, okay, how can we potentially, for a season, do less? Maybe we have more frozen pizzas for dinner and that, you know, that makes you feel like a bad mom or a bad parent that I'm feeding my kids. Dijorn. I was like, well, if it's giving you some freedom to process emotions, to do your work and not, you know, be losing your temper, they're gonna be okay, you know, with some frozen pizzas for a while. Or if there's less kids sports you do, if you're less involved at church, you know, God's not gonna say, I can't believe you only served, you know, one hour a week in that season because you were going through betrayal, where were you? Like, no, your health, your relationships, growing through this time, it is the number one priority. And so if other things have to kind of get a back burner or a back seat for a little while or for this season, it's okay, because you're just saying, this matters. This is a big deal. And back to your illustration, Ashley. If, you know, if you had a death in the family, it's like our society gives people permission. Like, man, take as long as you need. Take as much time. Like we'll work with you. What if we had that same mindset for betrayal and recovery? Like, this is going to take time and take what you need. And maybe others won't give us that, but on the inside, we could give ourselves some of that permission. Like, this matters, and it's going to take some time. And letting it matter will also give us the space to do the work we need to do.

And that's why it's so important to have a professional, a counselor, a therapist, or a group is because those are people who will remind you of that. Because as you guys are sharing, it's so true what you guys are saying. I also have heard and even personally experienced from the church, like, well, you shouldn't stop serving. This is the time to serve more, lean in more, do all of that. And I think what that is, is that's crossing a boundary. And if you have a counselor or a therapist, someone who has that professional clinical experience, or a betrayal and beyond group, or a betrayal group of some capacity, those are people who will be like, hold on a second. Like, you cannot do this. You're not up for that. You need to take more space. You need to give yourself more grace. And again, I just feel like without those relationships, it's easy to slip back into. Okay, I guess I should share or I should say yes to these things continually when ultimately it's just creating more difficulty in your life. So, again, the importance of community or professional.

Yeah. And I feel so sad. I mean, I just was working with a woman and it's like, well, the nearest group is this far away. And Nick, I know you drove a long way for your groups, but the comment, and especially for maybe a mom who has the burden of the house on them, you know, it's like, well, I just. I really can't set that. That time or distance aside for myself right now. That's not possible. And I'm thinking, oh, gosh, I. No, it's so needed right now. It's. It's the best thing you can do for yourself right now. It's the best gift you can do yourself. And I know it's sucks when you're like, okay, if I do this, it does mean my kids are eating digiorno. Poor digiorno. Or Red Baron.

Do Red Baron.

Digiorno burns the top of your mouth.

Yeah, yeah, my kids are eating pizza or the bathrooms are going to be nasty. And that's triggering to me in another way. And it's like we're balancing all these things and it's like, we are going to have to deal. Like, right now I'm dealing with yucky floors. And that's why I'm hiring a housekeeper, because it's not a priority for me right now. I've got my mom living with me who has dementia. And so even what you were saying, Trevor, I had to tell my youth group, like, I, for the rest of the school year, I cannot help. Like, it is too much. I have work, I have deadlines, I have kids, I'm still a wife, and I have my mom living with me who has dementia. It's just too much. And I battle that shame because I don't think I got the response I really was hoping for. That's, like, supportive because not everybody has that mindset if you haven't been through it. And so I just have to remind myself this is what's best for me and my family. And I need to do that and trust that, like, God will take care of all of this over here. And I can't really care what people think about me right now because I absolutely need to create margin for my family. And that's a hard place to be because now you're having to wrestle with these emotions of how your church family or your community or your friend group might see you because you're having to say no and pull back on things. And so the betrayed spouse is having to deal with shame and maybe isolation or rejection on top of this whole thing they're dealing with in their marriage. And that's again, why you need a group to support you, because they've been there and done that and they're going to be the ones to say no. It doesn't matter if they're mad at you. You can say no to that and it's okay.

Yeah. A healthy version of you will always be a best gift you can bring to the world. And if you're pursuing health not just out of selfishness, like, I just forget all of you. And I don't think that's anyone's attitude when they're saying, I've got to back out of this commitment. I've got to serve less. I can't do that right now. Right. Like, you're doing it with the long term hope that there will be a better me and a better day when I may re engage with all of that. But for now, this is going to be best for all of us. So, Ashley, let's shift gears a little bit. We've talked about them a bit, but let's circle back to the struggling or Addicted spouse, what is their role in helping their partner with betrayal triggers? Can they help in this area or do they need to just, you know, back away and let them deal with it?

No, you have a lot of opportunity to help. See, I wrote, I wrote all these notes on how. Let me read it. Give me five minutes. No, but seriously, I think the betrayed spouse, or the addict spouse, the struggler spouse, has so much opportunity to help because it's this terrible place to be as a betrayed spouse when the person that you probably have gone to for all of your comfort or if anytime something happened at work or your best friend Sheila said this or whatever, you go to your spouse and you share it. So it's like it is your person that has done this to you. And so now that you're left with this betrayal and this discovery, there's this pull between wanting that connection back as soon as possible and wanting that comfort. But also they're the person that hurt you. And it's a terrible place to be. I'll have women say, is it okay, what's wrong with me that I want to have sex with my husband? Even though I'm so angry and I feel so sad, safe. And it's like, yeah, we're, we're bound to this person. And so being that that's the situation, the addict spouse has so much opportunity to, to step into that. And I will say don't crazy make or gaslight, though. If you're still struggling, if you're still relapsing, if you're still edging, if you're still lying, if you're still hiding, do not say, everything's going to be okay, everything's going to be fine. What can I do to earn your trust back? Don't say those things at all. Say, I'm still struggling and I recognize how terrible this is and how I've hurt you and I need my own help. And these are the things I'm doing. I'm getting counseling. I've called the counselor. I have an appointment on this day. I've joined a Pure Desire seven Pillars group. I've taken these apps off, I've downloaded this software monitoring system. I've reached out to these two guys and asked if they would be my check in accountability partners when I'm struggling. And you can create a whole list of things for your spouse that you're doing for yourself if you're not the one, that's. If you're not in a healthy place to be able to walk alongside her. And so that is kind of your version of helping if you're still maybe out of control and chaotic that you're showing, or taking the steps to first get your addiction under control and then being able to own the pain that you've caused. Like not blaming and not saying, well, well, you've been, you know, traveling a lot for work or you just had a baby. And so, you know, we haven't been able to have sex for two weeks or two months. And you know, we, you know, that kind of blaming. I heard some of that early on in my marriage. It's like, it's not that the addict was addict. John was even like meaning to blame me, but that's how it came across. It was. He was trying to explain why these things happened, but it came across as shaming and blaming, which really is what it was. And it took him going through group to take ownership. So just say no. Like, I caused this. So even recently when I said like, oh, I had a little betrayal trigger, I started off by saying, like, I do not want to hear that this is because my mom is living with us. Because if it's not my mom living with us, it's my ex husband. It's that we have teenagers. It's that, you know, your parents are, you know, super religious and the expectation is too high. Or it's that you had a divorce or you were in the army. Like, there's always something. And I understand stress brings us to wanting to act out or edge or have relapses. But. But we can't use those as excuses with our spouse. So just totally own it. Do not give any excuses. Be 100% honest. If you are still struggling, be honest about that. If you have had a relapse, be honest. Like there is no room for gray areas in recovery. And then do the work. Like ruthlessly go after your own healing and do the work. Don't be like, well, I guess I'll call the counselor. And then three weeks goes by and your wife is like, so when are you going to call that counselor? Like, just do it. Get on it and. And do it all. So those are some of the ways. And then of course you guys can. When you get to the place where you're able to sit down and talk and maybe with a counselor, talk through when you're feeling triggered in these ways. Like, these are some of your common triggers. What would help? What would help? And so I've told John, when I'm feeling triggered, I don't really want you to touch me at that point. So offering to Help with the kids, offering to set up a day away with my best friend. Those are things that are helpful. Offering to make dinner so I can go on a walk and, like, clear my head and not have all this stress, but, like, patting my shoulder and things like that, that's just not going to work where some women are like, yeah, I want to know that you're there, so just tap my shoulder. And so talk through these things ahead of time. And then when it happens, you can kind of reassess. Like, was that helpful? Did this work? Do we need to tweak anything? Like, how can I better help? And then like you said, Nick, you may need to recognize that you have your own triggers, shame triggers. And so you may need backup support from your guys to deal with those shame triggers. I don't think early in the recovery process, your wife is the best person to do that with. But definitely later, like, John and I have had conversations about that, and it's really healthy and fruitful, but early on, it'd be really hard.

Yeah. The only thing, so many good things, Ashley. You know, one of the things that kept coming through my mind as you were talking was just control what you can control as a struggling spouse. Like group counseling, doing the work, asking questions, being curious how you can help your spouse control what you can control. The other thing is, and I want to be careful that what I'm saying is not inadvertently shaming people, but what is happening are consequences from your behavior and experiencing consequences. I mean, God uses consequences as a motivator, as a revealer of how our actions and thoughts impact other people on a positive and negative way. And so I think that. And I've had these conversations with guys in group where it's like, when is my wife just going to get over this stuff? Like, can we just move on? And it's like, well, sure, but she didn't cause you to act out, and you did. And this is the impact. And even though she may be having betrayal triggers and need you to do work, that trigger may have nothing to do with you, but it's still something that it's because of what happened. And so I want to be careful not to use that as shaming. But there is an element of, you need to sit in the mess that your actions created. And I think, I mean, I really do believe that your ability to pursue your own healing and simultaneously sit in the just suck of this entire season for your betrayed partner will go a long way. Your ability to be present, be in the moment, not try to rush through Acknowledge, empathize when you can. I think that goes a really, really long way. And so don't feel like just because there are consequences it has to equal shame. Consequences are just part of life. It's the way God designs stuff. And so just sit in that moment and process through it as best you can.

Yeah, I was thinking of a kind of a three step process that I've tried to be aware of and encourage men in particular, but struggling or addicted spouses that when your betrayed spouse is expressing a trigger to find a way to validate, to empathize and then offer to validate what they're feeling as being real and okay and a normal part of recovery. And if you're not sure how to validate, to even just repeat what they've just said, like, you know, they say I'm just so angry because you made me feel these things. Like, man, I. So I understand that you're so angry because I've made you feel these things. You know, you're, you're validating like this is a real feeling. I see it, I hear you. I. And I'm not trying to change you. I'm validating that this is what you're experiencing and then to empathize. I'm sorry that I've created this. I'm sorry that we're in this season because of my choices. I recognize this is going to be hard and I'm in it, you know, we're in it together. So just to try to empathize and create some shared like, I feel the weight of what you're going through and I know how important that was for my wife to maybe sense that I got it at least, you know, I couldn't feel her pain, but that I understood she was in pain and I was, I was going to enter into that with her and not try to avoid it or tell her to get better. You know, that's the empathize. And then to offer is to simply say, is there anything I can do to help? And they might have something and if they offer give you something to do, you need to do it. It might be, I'd like you to turn off that show. I'd like you to get rid of that app. I'd like you to not text that friend. I'd like you to. And what I found a lot in those circumstances, we might object a little bit. Like, well, why does that. Because if we don't see it as important as they do, we might want to hold onto it. And yet I've seen so often in marriages, you know, when there's discovery, when there's disclosure, when kind of maybe all this blows up, a spouse, the struggler or the addict, say, man, I would do anything to save my marriage. And then when it gets really practical like this, like, I want you to delete that app, like, and there's a part of us that should say, well, I thought you said you would do anything. And if you would do anything to save our marriage, deleting that app or cutting off that friendship, that may be part of the. Anything I need you to do to. To have you enter into this and see that you're serious about making change and just having that willingness of. I'm offering, what can I do to help? And if this will help you, I will do anything, including, you know, maybe creating some boundaries that I don't like. But if it will help you, I'm in it. And then I would. I would just encourage, because you brought it up, Ashley, do whatever you can to lighten her burden. And so if she's the primary homekeeper and does the cooking and the shopping, like, dude, I get it. You might not be Bobby Flay, but you can make hot dogs. You can put in the frozen pizza, like, offer like, hey, this week I'm making dinner, or I'm going to do the grocery shopping. I'm doing the floors. I'm. And I think sometimes we just expect that a spouse will keep doing everything they've been doing and recover somehow in the margins where maybe we need to help people create space. And to say that, like, hey, this, this. In this season, here's some things I would like to do. And I'm not trying to do it to win you back or win your favor or make you happy with me so we'll have sex. I'm simply trying to do these things so that you might have more space to do your recovery, to heal, to process. So here's some things I'd like to do if you can lift their burden. I mean, this is kind of a principle of, like, relationship in general. If you can help lift someone else's burden, it's going to create a sense of shared relationship, of like, oh, they're in this with me, versus if you're just like, I got work, I'm sorry, you know, you're going to figure it out with the kids. Even though that might not have anything to do with betrayal, it does leave them feeling like, well, this is all up to me and I'm in it alone, versus I'm going to sacrifice some of My free time to lift your burden so that there might be space for you to heal. I think that just goes a long ways to creating an environment of healing in your marriage.

Yeah. So I hope you can hear. If you are the struggling spouse and you're listening to this, there is a lot that you can do. There is like, you do not have to sit on your hands and just wait. There's stuff you can do. Okay, let's end with this, Ashley. And this is kind of a lingering question that many probably will have is, will it always be like this? Will these betrayal triggers always exist? Will they always be there? Do I just have to put up them the rest of my life? What's your take?

I need a good 45 minutes to talk.

And part two of next week.

But honestly, it's like, this is what I've learned working at Pure Desire and for almost nine years now and speaking and doing normal life while doing that and having a normal husband who has normal struggles is that my job is not to help women understand, hey, you can reach this point where your life is going to be peachy keen and everything's going to be perfect and wonderful, and no mistakes are going to be. Because that's so unrealistic. And so for the addict and the betrayed spouse, you're going to get to this point if you work. If you don't work, it's probably just going to stay there. Your brain's going to remember it. You got to do the work, and it sucks. And like Nick said, if. If your wife now has to go to group for two hours and do homework for two hours a week, that's four hours that she's all of a sudden had to squeeze into her schedule. And so that's why make, you know, helping to lift the load is so important because you have to emphasize doing the work fully and being fully present in your healing process is so, so important so that you don't have to stay stuck here regardless of what your spouse chooses. And so that's where we want to get to, is that you are a whole person all on your own. I mean, it's really cute. Jerry Maguire, like, you complete me and all of that, but you're not somebody else's half. So when they make a mistake, you can get to the point where that does not destroy you, ruin your identity, completely flatline you from life, that you are your own whole person with gifts and abilities and purpose and can experience joy and have opportunity to give to others and care for yourself. And it can be hard to Understand when you're in that early stage because you know, you are so closely connected. We're interdependent with our spouse. But that's what I discovered through like post traumatic growth was just all the walls of my marriage and my identity in John coming down and God saying, you are your own person and as humans, you're going to hurt each other. So now what does this look like in life going forward when you might hurt each other and when you can get to that point of understanding? We may not be perfect. Of course we don't want these catastrophic mistakes happening again. But I told John, and I hear time and again from women, it's, it's not as much about living a 100% perfect life. You may slip on Facebook and click on something sexual, you may relapse. But I want complete honesty as quick as possible so we can get back on course. And I think there's freedom in getting to that point because I know that John might struggle again. But I also know that it's okay. I have the tools. I'll be able to process it. I've done enough work to know it's not about me. And so even with his last little like struggle of temptation, I was able to say, what is it you need? Like, I can see that you need some more self care you need. And it was this whole flip of saying this is an indication that there's either some guardrails that fell off or there's some self care that needs to happen or more communication or a new avenue of work we need to do because the work you're doing is boring and repetitive. Like, this is just an indication that we need to like recalibrate and come back to center. And so it's freeing, it's really freeing to get to that point. But I will say if you don't do the work, you're probably never going to be free of betrayal triggers. You have to do the work.

When going back to the PTSD illustration, if I've been in a war country and come home and work through all my PTSD triggers, if I get redeployed and go back to a war zone and experience traumatic things, I'm probably going to have reawakened triggers or new triggers. And, and even if I have more tools to deal with it, even if I'm better able to be aware of what's going on, I was in another traumatic situation, I'm going to have new triggers to work on. And so to take that into marriage, if you are relapsing if you are breaking boundaries and they're getting triggered, like, yeah, it is re traumatizing. And even if you've got more tools, even if you've got growth, because you don't just start over, you can utilize some tools, but there will probably be new triggers. And so I would say to the struggling or addicted to spouse, like, you have to do whatever it takes to continue growing and to avoid re traumatizing your spouse, because it's like just. It's getting back on the roller coaster again. It's like, well, here we go again. And the goal is to stay off the roller coaster. The goal is to stay off of that ride and instead be on a better, healthier path. But that means you're gonna have to keep doing the work. And so, yes, growth is possible. And I would just echo what you said, Ashley, if you're doing the work, if you're both in it together, and if you're both all in, and if you as the struggling and addicted spouse, have made it one of your number one priorities to protect and create safety for your spouse. I only say number one because I think, you know, God is our number one priority, our faith, our family. But as part of that faith being our priority, our family being our priority, it's to create a safe, healthy environment for your spouse that should always be on our radar. And I would say to the degree we're doing that, these triggers can go away or they can be lessened. They can get to the point they're not interfering with your day and your life. They may still pop up, but now you're aware of, oh, here's a way we deal with that. Here's a good way to move through it, and you can quickly get back just to normal life. So that day is coming, and the way you get there is by doing the hard work of recovery and staying at it, because it will change.

Yep. This has been a super great conversation. And I just want to say if Brittany is listening to this episode, which I hope you are, thank you so much for the question. Yeah, just a lot of courage to be honest and to share your experience. And this is a question we get often, and so it's nice to have it be an episode now that we can reference back to. Ashley, thank you for your expertise and experience in this. I know you put a lot of thought and note taking into place today to prepare, but appreciate you and your perspective. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks.

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