368 - Rebuilding Life After Discovery

Foreign.

Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from porn. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whatever time you're listening to the show. I'm your host, Trevor Windsor, and you're listening to episode 368 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Here joining me as always, eye roll, is my co host, Nick Stembo.

All y', ally, oxen free. Ollie ollie oxen free.

All right, I. I got a flashback to just like 5 years old playing out in the church field out back, back when, you know, parents would let.

Children go outside without roaming the neighborhood on their own. Be home at sundown.

Yeah, basically. I actually, I don't really remember what that's from. I mean, I think it's a call to a game of some.

Yeah, no, you got it. It's like in hide and seek or kick the can, it's what you would yell at the end when essentially the seeker is giving up. Like, I don't know where you are. So all the ollie oxen for you means like game, come in, come out. And I looked it up. It comes from the phrase originally was all ye, all ye out in free. So, meaning you're out there, I can't find you, you now can come in for free and you're not caught, you're not going to be interesting. So it's like the end people over time and stuff. Like, I guess I don't. Maybe kick the can was a little more extreme when they played it in the early days. I don't know. But yeah, yeah, all the, all the oxen free.

Okay. Tie it in. Because we had Tracy Wright, who's one of our clinicians and authors on. And today was a episode that was a suggestion and actually a question from a listener about rebuilding life after discovery.

Yeah, I think sometimes in relationships it might be nice if we could just call out all, all the ollie oxen free. Like anything, I don't know, anything that might hurt me. Anything hidden, anything from your past. Like, let's just get it all out. Let's just bring it all in. Get out from behind the bushes and the hiding places. Let's see it. Because then we, we would know. Like, we wouldn't have to fear or have these moments where something I didn't know suddenly got discovered. And man, did it create a lot of pain and hurt and turmoil. And that's really what today's episode is all about, is what happens and what do we do when we discovered something we didn't know was there And I think creating some really maybe helpful and healthy parameters in a situation that is just really difficult and messy. And so even though we can't just call ollie ollie oxen free and end the game, we can deal with the secret or hidden stuff that came to light in a way that ultimately can lead to growth and to healing and to. Good.

Good intro. This is a good episode. We really liked our time with Tracy. So let's get into it. Here's our conversation with Tracy Wright on rebuilding life after Discovery. Tracy Wright, who happens to be our favorite Wright. Welcome back to the show.

Does that make her the right. Right.

I see what you did there.

Ah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I am always right, but. Okay.

Puddles are unending.

I know. And I don't feel like it's fair. Rodney's not here. We shouldn't, like, we should let him, you know, defend himself. Anyways. Okay, Tracy, we're glad to have you. On today's episode was a suggestion from one of our listener. Melanie sent this in. And we're going to discuss what it looks like to rebuild life after discovery, which I think we know is very challenging, but doable. And so, you know, you've lived this story, and honestly, you were the first person that came to mind. Just knowing you and Rodney's story, like this is something you guys have done. So we wanted to tap into that. Also, with your clinical background, you have a lot of perspective to add. So the first question is, for some, and I think it's important to start here, for some of our maybe newer listeners, the word discovery may not make sense. So can we just, at a baseline level, define what discovery means and what happens to a marriage at that point?

Yeah. When I think about discovery in this context, right. Sexually, it's discovering a secret or betrayal. So that could be phone or computer or we could witness something. So for many people, that's right. The start of something that either they knew was off or didn't know at all, and it's hitting them in the face. And often discovery, too, can happen more than once. Right. So depending on how they handle it or whether they get help right away, a lot of people have multiple discoveries over the years in their marriage before they get help or before they're able to reach out and how the spouse handles that, too. Sometimes it's with denial, sometimes it's with what also we would call disclosure. Right. So hard pieces that are disclosed now that this person has discovered it. But one thing I think about discovery is it kind of represents this before and after piece. Right. So when you're talking about betrayal, there's a heart and a trust being shattered, and it kind of represents that before and after. So giving it that name of discovery helps people even to understand if they're sharing that or getting support of what was going on for them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think of it as the. The word discover. I've. I've discovered something that I thought to be true about my marriage or about my spouse, and now I've discovered that it's not. That the reality that I was living in is very different. And one of the illustrations that's been used often in discovery is feeling like the file cabinet of our lives. All of our memories, all of our stories, all of kind of our carefully organized files get dumped out on the floor. And now there's this deep sense in the marriage or relationship of what is true. Because if this part that I thought to be true or liable or I believed things were happening that were not, or they're very different than I thought, then what else don't I know? What else isn't true? And in terms of the impact on the marriage, I think it sends that. The betrayed spouse into that spiral of how much is here? What else don't I know? And it's kind of a very disorienting experience because of all of the little connection points. And I only bring that up because I think as the one who is the struggling spouse and addicted spouse, we often miss that because we have so deeply compartmentalized our experience of the struggle. And we're trying to say, well, it's just once in a while, or it's just some porn, or it was just that thing that happened, and we've tried to carefully push it away into a box. And so it can be very difficult when for a spouse, it feels like, no, now I don't know anything about our. I don't know. Do I even know. You know, they'll use words like, do I even know you? And like, well, of course, you know, I mean, I'm the same. Like, yeah, but. But that feeling for them is I found out this isn't true. So what else don't I know? And I think that's just a big part of discovery. Yeah.

That's so important to validate all of the underlying things that are there. And I agree with the betraying spouse. Sometimes they really don't understand all that represents, and that person can know that. It's kind of like, you know, if I share with someone, oh, I discovered this, or, oh, my husband's struggling with sexual addiction, that represents all kinds of other things. So it's hard to even put it into words. That's why, you know, our support people, someone that's gone through it, are so important, right? Because they understand it in a unique and different way. I actually, and I was going to say I actually had someone in my life who shared with me, you know, my mom. Let's just say my mom shared with me and she went through betrayal later in life, but she shared with me. I'm so sorry. I didn't know what you were going through. But I, you know, I mean, she loved me. The best of anybody could love me. Right. And cared about how I felt and was right there with me. But until she experienced her own betrayal, she said, I just really had no idea what that means. And so I, I agree with you. Sometimes the spouse doesn't know how to meet that need too, because they know their reality. The betrayed partner has a different reality now with that discovery.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, Tracy, it's often the case that when people come to pure desire, it's because they are in that discover phase or crisis. Or maybe even this podcast got recommended to them because a friend heard what they've discovered. And like, I just heard a podcast about that and you should go listen. So what would you give an overview of what you encourage couples to do in this time of crisis or shortly after discovery? What. What kind of steps should they be taking?

Well, I think about just going back to what you said about the brain and how our. And the trauma response and even our nervous system safety and stabilization of our emotions is just like, first thing, because the traumatized brain or the, you know, our brain, when it feels unsafe, it really can't start processing and healing. And that's okay. That's, you know, God designed it that way. That's where. That's where it's supposed to be. But starting with just, okay, how do I feel? A little bit safe, right? Because my main person that's I'm supposed to feel safe from my secure attachment here is. Has betrayed me. And I'm not feeling that from them. I'm feeling like, I don't know who you are. I don't know if you're honest in other areas. Right. All these things are coming up for me. How do I then create some safety? And so I think two really big pieces are support and boundaries. So support from someone with specialized training, someone who's been through it, has had some healing, and you trust them, you can find that you maybe immediately don't Know someone like that, if you're on this podcast, you know, pure desire is available. Right. And so you're reaching out to somebody who has some training around that and can help you, and then setting boundaries. Most people are just going to need support with that, too. How do I set boundaries? But just to start at the beginning of, like, what do I need that I can take control of to help me feel safe? And then beyond that, can I ask for my partner for some things and that might be space for you, because we don't initially usually know what that is, but we can ask for space or we can ask for some. Some basics until we can get to some support or read a resource or something that helps us kind of take the next steps.

Yeah. And I think it's important, too, on the other side for the struggling spouse that there are steps that they need to take as well. I mean, I think absolutely to what you're saying, there needs to be a respect of the boundaries, which is extremely challenging for an addict after discovery because. And in a lot of ways, they feel like they just vomited and got it all off their chest. They feel great, like they're ready to kind of just like, let's tackle this thing together. And so there has to be a respect of boundaries. But to your point, also, there does need to be a step of trying to establish sobriety for that struggling spouse, whether that is seeking professional help with a therapist or a clinician, someone specific in this area, or joining a pure desire group. And I mean, that's. That's something that, if you're listening right now and this is where you're at, that's exactly why we have pure desire counseling. That's exactly why we have in person and online groups for both the betrayed partner and the addicted spouse. And so it's important that both spouses find ways to take steps forward. But you're right as far as the house, like, safety and boundaries have to be established first if there's ever going to be a hope that this marriage gets back together.

And I hope that struggling person wants to get help and they're ready to reach out. Everybody. It can be a different place in their journey. But to reach out and say, okay, how do I get help? The betrayed partner is going to maybe ask, like a boundary is a request. Right. So they're going to ask the person, this is what I need to help me feel safe. And then that struggling partner, it's up to them to say, am I willing to make the adjustments, to keep growing, to do that for my partner, so we can grow. So definitely those are, like, initial pieces that are needed and helpful.

Yeah. And I was going to say about the struggling spouse, it made me think of a movie that came out with Paul Rudd a few years back called how do youo Know? And in the movie, he's, like, accused of securities fraud or, you know, some Wall street thing. And as he's leaving the office, he's facing these charges. A coworker calls him and he says, I've been where you are, and I just want you to know, like, you need to let this be big. This is a really big deal. And he's like, oh, thanks a lot. That's great. But in that struggling spouse's mindset, there's a part of us that we've lived in a lot of secrecy and shame. And when we're discovered, a big part of us wants to minimize it. Like, I got it out. I'm kind of glad I got caught. And now she knows, and I want to be forgiven and move on, and let's kind of squash this and not have to face it. And there is a reality where, if we've been discovered in it, we need to see that this is big, and we need to let it be big. And we need to face it like it's big. Because the truth is, and as we've seen for so many couples, this can be, in a really good way, a defining moment in your marriage and in your life. If you let it. If you let it be big, and because of that, then you'll do the work to reach out for help, to call a counselor, to look for a group. And it. Because those things take time and investment of energy and money and. And there's a part of us, we just need to acknowledge it, that doesn't want to do that. But if we realize this is big and we lean in, it could be life changing. And we've also seen the flip side where someone, they came through a first time and they so pushed it away that they have to come back five years later. You know, I was even thinking of Robert Vandermeer. That's his story. The first time one of our counselors, the first time he met with Ted Roberts. Ted kicked him out of the office.

Yeah.

And he will say in a story, I wasn't ready, and I had to go through some more pain and lose that marriage for God to get a hold of my life. And so if you are a discovered spouse who's listening to this episode, I hope you could take that to heart. Like, this is big, and you need to let it be big so that it can have the impact in your life that God wants it to have.

So, Tracy, let's build off of that. Discovery is a super intense time of emotions, I think, for both spouses involved. How do we navigate that? Well, and that's. That seems like such a funny question. How do we navigate, like, the worst moment in our life potentially? But in this kind of space, what would we encourage people not to do? Like, here are the things, you know, and maybe one of them is minimizing the situation. But what else can you think of, of what not to do at the moment after discovery?

I think that is a really good question for people because that kind of talks about what we're. We're naturally going to want to do. And then later on say, oh, you know, I wish that I had some support. I wish I had someone tell me what not to do.

Yeah.

So a few things that came to mind for me, several. But one of them was disclosure. Sometimes it's actually. Often people will start asking questions, I want to know everything. You better tell me everything. And the partner might be blurting out information, and we're giving partial information, which is also harmful. That happens a lot. You really need support to help you in this area. So I think most people across the board would say that you need help and support. A lot of people do it that way because that's our natural inclination and we don't know. Right. Once we have heard from other people who've experienced, like, there's a better way to do this. So on the. On the opposite of that, get support to have what we call a full therapeutic disclosure. But that's where you're writing out a timeline. You've done the healing work. As the struggling spouse, you've done the healing work to be honest, to write it out and to share it with that person. And they've done the work, or at least enough to be able to show up and receive and hear that and make this a line in the sand that we're. We're drawing to be able to move forward. I think that's a huge part of healing. And I just see it. See it done a lot. Where we start asking a lot of questions, it's understandable. We want. We want answers, and so we can get into that. Another one is just making major decisions. So counselors, coaches will mostly recommend not to make a big decision about the marriage in the first year. If you're getting support and if you're invested in healing But I would say other major decisions in your life. So your nervous system has been very overwhelmed. It's looking for safety. So little things that you do in your daily life, your cup of coffee or if it's your whatever, listening to music, setting up those and keeping those going, I think is just really important and something that I try to help betrayed partners do because they're just overwhelmed. And that creates this little sense of safety and normalcy. When our life feels like it's not normal at all. Another one is telling no one or telling everyone. So we have this feeling of, I either want to throw this person under the bus or I want to protect them. And we're not sure which one is showing up on this day. But I would just say being really careful around who we share and how we share, that's a don't. Because we have a natural inclination maybe to either tell no one and isolate ourselves or just start blurting it out because we're so angry. Those are some of the initial, I think, really big ones. Yeah.

Yeah. Another dynamic to be aware of is it's a deeply emotional time. And if we're experiencing deep emotions, sometimes we can become reactive to those emotions. And so for the. For the betrayed spouse who's discovered something, there will at times be a reaction to say, they have hurt me so deeply, I want to now hurt them so they know how it feels. And while that might be a justified emotion, if we act on it, it infinitely complicates the situation, and it does not, you know, as we know, revenge doesn't produce what we want. It just creates more pain and more anger and more to deal with. And so, again, what you're feeling, totally understandable and justifiable, but to act on it will make next steps that much more challenging. On the flip side, if we are the spouse who's been discovered and our stuff's come to light, maybe we've heard some things from our spouse, like, well, I'm leaving you, or I'll never trust you again, or I'll never, you know, or this is going to happen and there's threats out coming out of anger, and we can go to that place of, well, fine, then I'm just giving up. Well, she's going to leave me anyway, so I guess I might as well. You know, it's kind of the principle of the whole. Like, at some point you got to stop digging. If you want to recover, you're going to have to stop digging. And so no matter what, maybe intense emotion or threats or anger's coming at you. If you also go and act on your emotions of giving up and, well, I guess it doesn't matter. Again, you're going to make a difficult situation that much worse and you're going to create that much more pain and baggage and stuff to deal with. And I would say that even if the marriage doesn't make like, even if those threats come true, even if those worst case things that maybe they say to you are what happens if you go off the deep end with additional choices, you're just making your future that much more difficult and adding to the baggage you're going to have to deal with. So, again, the emotions themselves are totally understandable because this is a very emotional situation. But we need to guard our heart against acting on them in a way that's going to make recovery for us or for the marriage that much more difficult.

Something that keeps coming to mind as you guys are sharing is, and this is sort of answering the other side of the question, but I feel like in these moments, what I often hear from the church or have heard from people in this situation, the church's response to them is like, don't separate. Don't get into two different places of living. Don't create space. And I want to just say that, Traci, what you said about not making a decision for the first year, if you're doing work on both ends, I think is very valid. But that doesn't mean that you have to live under the same house and sleep in the same bed and still be sexually active. But it's really important to create that safety, at least on the front end. And I'm trying to rack my brain to figure out an illustration for this. But it's the idea that you really, you're just separating for the benefit of the marriage. And so if that is what the betrayed partner needs to feel safe, even though you may get external pressure from, because I don't know if it fits in our Christian paradigm, like separation in general. It can seem, we've talked about it before on the show, can seem so scary and feel like it's a first step toward divorce. But that idea, I think it was Eileen Fagan, who was on one of our clinicians who talked about a therapeutic separation with intent to come back. So I just want to make sure that if a betrayed partner is listening, that that's affirmed, that if that's how you feel and that's what you need in order to feel safe, even if you may get that external pressure, it's still an okay step because the hope is that your marriage will restore.

Yeah, thank you for clarifying that, Trevor, because that's super important. My role as a clinician is not to tell someone what they need to do or not to do, but help them discover that. Help give wisdom around people's experience and slow down maybe a little bit to think that through, but for sure to support someone in the basic of what do I need to feel safe? And sometimes they just can't feel safe without some boundaries put in place. And that could be one of the boundaries for sure.

Yeah. Maybe the illustration is if you've got, you know, extreme pain in your foot because of a broken bone or a dislocation, like it would be totally appropriate to take some temporary steps for support. To have a cast, to maybe take some pain medication versus amputating because of pain would be a very extreme step that's difficult to come back from. But you've got, I'm in so much pain, I just want to deal with it. And I think that's the illustration or what we're talking about is, yeah, you need steps for support. And part of that support may be physical space to get some emotional well being. It may be, you know, getting into that group and counseling because you need to figure out what to do.

Yeah.

But not taking steps that are going to be irreversible or very, very difficult to come back from. Because if those steps eventually need to happen, we want to do it with a lot of wisdom and thought and in a way that does maybe ultimately leave us in the best place to keep growing from it. And not just, you know, I tried to make the pain stop and in trying to make it stop, I actually just added to it.

Yep.

Yeah. So I'd add that our spiritual leaders, you know, in our faith communities or around us, often they will be warm and loving and accepting and at other times they won't have the skill to help in that. And they will have maybe an old paradigm paradigm where they don't understand safety and betrayal, trauma. And you know, sometimes I'll share that with a spouse. You know, a church may have a stance or a denomination on never divorcing. Right. And they've, they have changed that over the years to accommodate physical abuse. Right. That we're not going to ask someone to stay in that home. But that doesn't mean there's not still discernment being made. And so sometimes there is that need to be able to take a step back and to see if we can create safety again or not.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think Appropriate breathing space and support. And I mean, all the things you said, Tracy, that's great. One of the biggest impacts of discovery of sexual addiction or hidden behavior is on the family. And so kind of two parts of this question here. If our immediate family, our kids who are in the home or grown kids don't know about the discovery, should we tell them? And on the flip side, if we have kids in the home and they do know, how do we navigate this with them?

Yeah, and I think that could be parents, siblings, you know, extended family as well. People are often trying to figure that out. I would say with extended family, just saying, you don't. You're not obligated to share that with people outside of your family, your immediate family, or you as a couple. But talking about it, who's safe? Because often parents will be some of the biggest supporters and at other times they will be very unhealthy and it. And we don't want to bring them in on that conversation. So being able to discuss that, get some healing, hopefully as individuals, as a couple, and decide whether you want to bring them in on that. But there's not a right or wrong about that as far as our kids. It depends on their age, of course. I think always we can share something about counseling or group. Right. Because we're modeling something without laying a burden upon them. We're saying mom and dad are struggling or we're getting some support for our marriage, or for some people, they will say dad was dishonest with mom or mom vice versa, and we're getting some support or we're meeting with a counselor. Those are kind of age appropriate ways of not oversharing or burdening our kids, but giving them an example of how we handle things. Or, you know, because you kind of have to think about. Some children are exposed to us talking about the situation. They're exposed to dad being upset or defensive, mom crying, whatever that might be. There's, you know, a number of things that could look like. So our kids are being impacted. Maybe not directly, maybe we've hidden it enough from them. They aren't, but. But it's good, right? It then doesn't become a family secret if we're able to share parts of it at that age appropriate place. And then as they become older, I think bringing them in on our story is really healthy. When we've done some work around it, if they weren't automatically exposed to it or already have known about it, then getting a little bit of healing and being able to share that. Talk about even as A couple or, you know, just as an individual with someone. How do I want to share this with my older kids so that it's like helpful to them?

Yeah, I was just thinking about for the struggling spouse that, you know, they just maybe for the first time were discovered or they just kind of got all of this like, burden of their struggle kind of off their chest. And in that moment, sometimes you like just want to ride the vulnerability train. And it's like you just tell your kids the same thing you just told your spouse. And I would say it's okay to not share all the details, especially early on to say something like, I can't give you all the information right now, but daddy made a decision that really hurt mommy and I'm going to take some steps to take care of it. And honestly, even if that conversation is with a 13, 14, 18 year old kid, like there's still ownership of I did something wrong and there's also ownership. I'm going to take some steps. But I feel like in that moment you have to be aware that that's going to potentially be pretty traumatic for your kid regardless of their age, because I think we already talked about the like spouse rewriting all of the history. I think the kids, in some ways, their brains will also start to do that. And so I think I would just encourage people to not overshare, even with their kids in that moment, but that you can own it in a way that's going to protect them long term.

Yeah, yeah, you said it earlier, Traci. There's two extremes of telling everything to everyone and telling no one, and neither are particularly healthy. And so it's asking who are the safe people in my life who are safe family members that going to them and in an appropriate way sharing what we're going through creates an environment of support. And if there are people that are not safe, even if they're very close to us in proximity or a relationship, that may not be something we bring up to them. In terms of kids in the home, you know, our kids were quite young when my wife and I went through our first intense year of counseling and groups. And I think it was helpful to say some of that same language you used, Trevor, to say, you know, daddy did some things that were very, very hurtful to mommy, but we're going to do some things to get help. We're going to talk to some people that are going to help us get better. And so there may be a few times where we have babysitters or you're at a friend's house because mommy and daddy are getting help and it's going to be good for us. I do think you want to guard against over promising because that may be a temptation to try to create security for your kids. Say oh, you know mom. Because depending on the situation, you may not know in that moment if the marriage is going to make it. There may still be things that you're looking to for your spouse of are they actually humble and repentant and going to change behavior? I'm not certain. And so to say to them, you know, like, oh, we'll always be together and you may not know, but I think what you can say is mommy and daddy will always love you. This isn't your fault. There's nothing that you've done that you know, I'm not crying or angry because of anything you've done. But I can promise you I'll always love you. You'll always be valued. We'll always take care of you and not try to create false security because that can become part of your children's trauma of my mom promised me this and then she moved out or the marriage didn't work. And you may not. In this early season of Discovery, you don't know the future and I think it's okay to acknowledge that. But there are things you can say to your kids to assure them of your love and your presence and that they don't have to ask the question did I do something wrong or is this my fault? Because as we hear a lot for some reason we do that as kids, we take on our parents burden as somehow being about us. So I think that's an area where as parents we can speak into our kids lives in a helpful way.

Definitely it's a huge area for modeling because our kids are going to go through things. They're going to go through things in their life. I'm thinking middle school. They're going to go through a lot of things and then as they continue in life they're going to struggle. And if we have modeled a pathway to growth, pathway to reaching out for other people to support, you know, for support when we need it. Yeah, I think that is just huge, huge modeling opportunity that comes with this very devastating definitely situation in our lives.

Okay, so this has come up recently on, on the show we've been talking about really recovery being a journey into honesty and vulnerability. So seeing and naming what's there and then addressing it. So kind of after this discovery moment, what encouragement do we have for couples to maintain a healthy level of honesty and vulnerability as they continue through the process.

Well, thinking in the question of creating and maintaining honesty, I think what we do through boundaries and really we call it safety plan, recovery plan, action plan, type names, but I'll just call it an agreement for right now. So one effective way, I think right at the beginning is helping have an agreement around secrets. So a lot of times it's within 24 or 48 hours. The spouse would share if there was a lapse or a relapse, and they have a defined understanding together of what sobriety looks like. I think then over, you know, over the months and years, this working document becomes more of an ownership, like, hey, what do you need for, you know, recovery and what are you needing for healing and growth in your life? So I say, you know, setting up that we're not going to have secrets anymore and kind of putting some parameters around that. I like the written document, you know, because we can go back to that. And I just had a spouse, you know, a week ago say this was so helpful because I've never used this before and I didn't have to use the energy behind it. In this secret that came up, I had this document to say, oh, you're going to go to your support person. I'm going to go to Tracy, I'm going to go to my support person, and I'm going to look at my next step. So I just think that can be so helpful in keeping the conversation open that we're expecting to not have secrets from each other anymore. Yeah.

Yeah. Discovery, again, is things I don't know. And I think we need to recognize it for that spouse that discovered all these things, that question mark of what else don't I know? Or are they going to re engage in things and I won't know is there? And so as the struggling or addicted spouse, there's so much you can do to help alleviate those fears by being transparent and straightforward. And I think it's best, you know, I'll go back to our story that you really need to be proactive about having a time to share that and not leave your spouse in this place where they feel a little bit like they have to play copy or mother you like, how are you doing on this? Are you doing that you told me you would? Are you following through? That's where it was so valuable for us that we had a weekly check in time, and maybe for some couples, they need initially a daily check in time, that would be appropriate too. But where my wife and I knew, and I think it was Tuesday Nights, once our little kids were in bed, we were going to sit on the couch and I was going to walk through my guardrails and I was going to report on each one of them. I'm not on social media. I've done great with that. I'm not doing this. I've taken these steps. And then I would also share my faster skill just to start to cue for both myself and my wife to know where was I at emotionally? Because that was kind of the fear for her. Is Nick going to get discouraged at work or is something heavy going to be happening in his life and this will be his pull or temptation to go back to these things? And so if I could talk through why I was in ticked off and what steps I was taking, that was a tremendous encouragement too. And then what it did for my wife is she didn't have to ask me. She didn't have to play cop or detective because she knew. Tuesday nights, 8 o', clock, I'm going to get an update. And trusting that I was going to be honest, obviously is a big part of that. But I think when you make that choice to be honest in small things, you don't have to be honest about the big things because they don't happen. You deal with the little things and you deal with it early on. And when you're doing that consistently, it builds not only trust with your spouse, but I think it builds that momentum of, hey, I'm week in and week out, I'm starting to do the right thing. And then you don't have to get to that point where there's big things that need to be discussed. So that, I think is the hope behind it is not just this grueling honesty session each week, but it's the honesty that keeps us on that path of recovery.

It just reminds me again of how important a group is for both spouses, but specifically for a betrayed partner. Because I know in my experience with women who've gone through BNB is there's this experience of finding their voice for the first time. We hear the story all the time finding their voice. And I think that that's one of the things that is very needed if a marriage is going to continue into recovery and full restoration. Is the betrayed partner not losing their voice, finding it and then knowing that my voice is just as valuable at the table where, you know, Nick, you're talking about the things that the struggling spouse can do. And those things are so helpful. But I know that as traction, you know, is created, like I also would hope that the betrayed partner's voice still stays present in every single conversation. Their needs, their boundaries, what they see for their marriage, what they want to feel safe or valued or cared for. And so I feel like that is also a really important piece of having a group, because in that group experience, you are given that place and that platform to step up and own how you feel, identify where you're at, you know, learn that you can use your voice, you know, to. To ask for what you need in order to feel safe and secure in a marriage. And so I think I'm just saying that again, to double back to how important community is a community based around this, a pure desire group or recovery and healing group, because that's a place where that stuff can get worked out, and then you take it back into your marriage for the benefit of the relationship.

And that's another form of honesty that you're talking about. Yep. Right. Not necessarily what we would call a secret, but this honesty about my thoughts and feelings. And both partners need to be able to do that, be able to be honest about their thoughts and feelings and find a way to communicate those in a healthy way. That's just. That's a healthy marriage to be able to do that. So I love that. And one. One other thing that I was just thinking about is that principle of growth over time. So it's watching that person become more honest or open or humble or whatever it is over time, and remembering that we're still going to be human and we're still going to make mistakes and. But so this person is working on improving, being honest in the little things. Right. But they're going to. They're doing it over time, just as each of us are growing in a bunch of different areas, hopefully over time.

Yeah. I love that reminder, Tracy, that both spouses are learning to face their emotions. And that was a big part of my story that I didn't know how to share safely. Things I was struggling with. And I don't mean sexual. I mean like fears, doubts, worries, anger. Because I kind of grew up in an environment where emotions weren't welcomed, emotions weren't understood or valued. They were more maybe signs of spiritual weakness that we didn't trust God and have faith and everything should be, you know, joyful and up and to the right things are good. And so to. Even in my marriage, to know how to say, I'm really afraid of this relationship at church, and I'm really feeling this heaviness, I would just kind of come home and soldier through and try to be the good husband and good friend and not bring it up. Well, that was becoming part of my story, that I wasn't really bringing that up anywhere. And so for us to start checking in, it helped me learn, like, oh, I can be real about my emotions and I can ask for help and I can ask for support so I don't have to run to those old, unhealthy places because I'm dealing with the things that those old unhealthy places used to help me deal with. So that's, yeah, I think a really important point that both spouses are going to learn and grow through this. Traci, this is a question that came specifically from one of our listeners around this topic. They want to know how we can help encourage our grown children in this process. In our story, how do we help our grown kids learn not to be afraid of sin and transparency and lean into the Lord and his community for healthy relationships in our life?

This is a really good question. I've heard other parents ask the same question. There's just that concern around that. And I think it's something I've thought about for myself too. In growing up, I was a rule follower, a pastor's kid. Like, what is, you know, what does it mean to repent of sin? You know, is my heart clean? That kind of thing. And sometimes that fear of that and fear of when we make mistakes, what happens? And so I think about, as a parent, first, looking at what are your paradigms around your relationship with self, God and others, do you feel like you have a healthy, secure attachment with God? So looking into that first, right, because our kids are definitely picking up those pieces from us. How we see when. When we're making mistakes and how we kind of see the love of God or judgment of God or repentance and what that looks like. I've thought about that too, because my children are grown. So as young adults and then as them coming into adulthood, how do I kind of share some of that with them? So I think one of the main things for me just going back to like, maybe Sunday school, when they teach us about the dart and missing the mark, right? Sin is described as missing the mark. What helps me is to look at it as making adjustments. So, like, every day I'm looking at where my heart is, and when I'm missing the mark, how am I making adjustments? I really look at sin that way. And part of that, of course, is confessing to God or confessing to others. But I'm. I'm not afraid of it because I Understand it as like, yeah. And sometimes my heart is off from where the Holy Spirit has me or desires for me, and I get to make adjustments in that in a number of different ways, you know, so just without expanding on that too much, and I think with our grown children or our young adult children, they don't really live in a culture that says, just because the Bible said, I'm gonna follow it. They live in a culture that challenges, that they're open to questions. So I really love to make that connection of what's healthy. And. Because obviously that comes from God. We know that as adults, that comes from God as parents, hopefully. And tying that back then to faith, because I believe our kids want things that are good for them. Like, they want to have deep connections with others. Right. Or to have a healthy life. And so being able to tie that back to faith, to our faith, and to God.

Yeah. What you're talking about there, too, in. In my mind, is really just creating a safe space where those questions are allowed. And believe it or not, God allows those questions from us. I mean, that's. I'm thinking of a conversation we had with Ben Bennett on the show recently that, like, curiosity or a lack of certainty or even doubts are tools that we can use to find answers and to solidify even more faith. Another thing Tracy, you've mentioned earlier, though, is I think modeling in this goes a long way and two specific ways. I think our ability to. Our ability and willingness and follow through to lean into relationship, whether that is going to a pure desire group, whether that is being honest and vulnerable with our community around us, I think our kids see that and will pay attention to that, really, at any level, in any age. But also when I think about how we respond to other people's sin, if anything's gonna soften you up, it's gonna be the recovery journey, because it's gonna show you not only, man, I really messed up, but now I understand why. And, you know, to quote Adrian Hickman, a friend of the ministry, like, what makes this make sense is a question that comes to mind a lot quicker. And our response to other people's sin or struggles or difficulties also communicates a lot. Something that's just not great. But I'll do this where when someone cuts me off and my kids are in the car, I'm like, oh, come on. You know, like, say that Brady's like, what did they do, dad? And I'm like, I just. I freaked out in front of my kid. What I'm teaching him is that it's okay to be angry and it's okay to get frustrated and it's okay to like lash out this person. Of course I'm not like flipping them off. I might be in my heart, but not physically in front of my kids. But it's one of those things where he's picking up on that. And I've actually, my four year old Brooks, I heard him do the same thing. When someone pulled out in front of us, it wasn't even them cutting us off. He was like, ah, what do you know? And I'm just like, son of a. Like I have created this little monster, you know. And so I think our lack of a healthy response or a gracious response or our ability to respond graciously to other people's sin I think sets the paradigm for our kids of what community should look like and what God's people should be like together.

Yeah.

Yeah. One of the things that I believe is true is that once we're a parent, we are always parents to those kids. That there is something about the psyche or makeup of children that, that even if you don't have a good relationship with them, they are watching their parents and they're learning from them. And, and I think too many of us have a mindset like, well, I raised my kids, I'm done raising my kids. Like, no, you're always raising your kids because you have a place of influence in their life. Again, even if your relationship with them currently is strained or not very healthy or because of how you raised them, they don't seem to value that time. They're watching you. And I think for you to be a growing person and showing that you're continuing to change and learn and adapt like you said, Trevor, that models and shows something to them that even if they don't say it, they're seeing it. And I want to encourage parents, I believe you have far more influence in the lives of your adult children than you realize or than maybe you'll ever know. But if you will continue to pursue Christ and this healing journey and in ways that you can, and maybe because of the relationship you have now, it may be limited, but in limited ways, if you're still showing that you're a growing, changing, learning person, you're humble, you're open to input, like that will say something to them and it may be the very thing that they see, like, man, this isn't the dad that I grew up with. This isn't the dad that I remember. This isn't the angry, aloof, disengaged parent that I thought I had. There's something happening and over time that tremendously can impact your relationship. So I just want to encourage parents in this season of life, like, keep at it. You've got more influence than you know, and God is using you, so keep at it.

And Tracy, to quote you and Rodney, you guys talk about this, that the greatest gift we can give to our kids is our own health. And that idea that as we continue to grow. And I love that, Nick, because, you know, we just did a recent episode of a Stories of Healing episode where there was a couple who are a little bit older, and they even talked about being the older people, people in group and how sometimes that could be challenging, but that's actually super encouraging when you see people who are later on in life making those adjustments. And it absolutely, absolutely gives our kids that paradigm. Okay, let's go a little bit practical here. So in addition to joining a recovery and healing group and or doing counseling, what are other steps individuals and couples can take when working toward rebuilding after discovery?

One thing I think of is just changing our mindset about recovery. Sometimes. This is right at first where it feels like someone just said three to five years. And what in the world? How are we going to do this for three to five years? Right. So changing our mindset. So this initial intense work and phase counseling and group and, you know, homework and all of this, that's going to shift over time, possibly. Right. But the healing work of a relationships recovery work is for life. That does. No matter which spouse you are, what end of this healing you're on, that is for life. So I think changing that, and if we're both committed to growing, we've talked a lot about that. And I mean, that's something in our family. We just value that word growing, that I am going to be growing for the rest of my days here. So if we keep on that journey, we have support and healthy relationships around us, there's a lot of hope for the relationship. So, I mean, I. I continue to tell people there are. There are all these elements. And as you continue to give yourself to that piece of recovery and put people around you that are on that growing journey too, whether it's in this area or other areas of your life that you're struggling, you will see a big difference.

I think too, it's realizing that this journey is not just about sex. It's not just about my needs. It's not about that I have too much hormones or I'm just wired this way because we hear that from people that you're acting out. The things that got discovered were a byproduct of much deeper things, of your story, of ways you've been wounded and then ways you've learned to respond or react to those wounds, of ways you've tried to medicate pain or cope with life. And. And when you see that, when you start to make that shift, that, oh, this is more than about sex. This is about a way of doing life. That's what leads us into, I think, that place of saying, I'm always going to be on a journey of learning how to overcome that voice of shame from my past or the voice that says I'm not good enough or I don't measure up, that may have been rooted in some of my ways of thinking because of trauma or childhood experiences. That is an ongoing journey. And the. The. The real benefit of that is it's.

It.

It will change us in more ways than just healing some of our sexual brokenness. It will impact everything. That's what my wife and I said so many times. It's like, man, our. We feel like our marriage is healing in ways that we're not even working on. What's.

What.

Where is that coming from? Well, it's. It's because you're going into some of the roots of dysfunction and finding out what's happening there. And when you begin to invite God and others into a place of healing, that the health in those roots gets up into the whole plant and the whole plant becomes healthier. And so I think when we get that bigger perspective on healing, man, we want to keep engaging because that's. That's a journey. We all desire to see a better version of ourselves. And so making that shift, I think, is. Is really important for couples.

I think of just, in my experience, the weight loss journey and everything I've. I've had is there's a difference between having a diet mindset and having a lifestyle change. And it's that, Traci, I think that's what you're referring to, is that commitment to, I am just going to live this, this way for the rest of my life. And, you know, I've been on this kind of journey for, I think, seven or eight years now, and it's still challenging at times. Like, my wife right now has this big bowl of candy in our room, and it's like, the twizzlers look super good right now. So I had two packages yesterday. I feel only a little bit of shame about it, but I woke up today and didn't just think like, oh, well, I fell off the wagon. So let's eat pizza for breakfast and then let's have cheesecake later tonight. And you know, and obviously now I'm food triggered because those sound amazing right now. But it's that idea of a commitment to. I am going to put rhythms and habits in my life that are helping facilitate the person I want to become or who I see myself becoming to better show up for my spouse, to better show up for my kids and my friends. And so it's diet versus lifestyle, I think is what. Is what I'm hearing.

That's exactly what I was thinking, Trevor. It's when those outward tools and steps become an inward journey and there will be a shift where it, it becomes a change within you. I'll sometimes I'll say to the betrayed partner, I can tell you this wasn't about you right now because that's the truth. But that's going to be something that your brain hears and maybe knows. But eventually your heart, it will shift and there will be an inward change and you will know that inside of you.

Yep.

And so I think that about the big picture too. It's like that outward journey becomes that an inward understanding and truth that walk out.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah, that is. That's so good. Tracy, we love you. We love having you and just love the thought of people who may be in an early season of discovery hearing this podcast, hearing your words and finding hope and encouragement as we look to wrap up today. What are some encouragements or words of wisdom for people that are working to rebuild their lives after discovery right now that you would like to leave with them?

Well, I was thinking about young me and just that I would have liked to had and I had some of it. But it was our journey was a long time ago. So not the kind of support that there is now, but to have someone share hope and tools with me. And I'm thinking of it in this way. Tools that thousands of people who've been through this understand and know to be a part of that healing journey. Not a magic pill.

Yeah.

But these things that actually are tangible for me to grab onto and move forward. I just think that to me that's a powerful part of us having hope. And I've seen it now and I get to see it every day as part of my work. And so I know that that's possible. Right. And we may be on the front end where we're like, I don't know if that's to going possible. I don't think this can Ever change. And so I was thinking about that, just kind of running a marathon. I did it once. I wasn't very good at it, but you wouldn't just be able to do it successfully. Right. But we could reach out to some of the thousands of people who have run marathons, and they prepared for them, and they either ran them well or they tripped up and they learned something from it. But I'm like, okay, that kind. That analogy kind of fits for me. There is that kind of support available for people walking through this journey that can feel so overwhelming, like I might not make it through to the other side. So that would be a hope that I have for someone listening today.

I mean, I just. I'm going to echo that because I feel like that's so just perfect, is just, you can't do this alone. So reach out, find a professional, find community. And this is not a journey because you've never been through something like this before. You don't know what to do. You don't know how to process it. And so lean on the people that have been there before and use the tools.

You just.

You can't do it alone.

Yeah. What came to mind for me is that it's worth it. This. This journey is worth it. I remember in our season of discovery, and, you know, when things were really intense and our marriage was on the brink, there were times where it's like, this is too hard, it's too messy. My wife is too angry. I'm too broken. Doing group and counseling is too exposing. I'm too tired. I'm. You're just like, I don't think I can do this. And that desire to maybe quit or give up or just kind of retreat into my shell, and maybe that means we end up divorced. But as funny as it sounds, like there were aspects of that that would have been easier to just give up and go our separate ways. And I look back and think, man, that part of me needed to hear a person down the road say, it's worth it. Take a deep breath, do the next right thing, go to the next group, do the next lesson, make the next phone call, get into that next hard conversation where your spouse maybe needs to get out some anger and trust issues and just keep doing the next thing. And you're going to look back and there's going to be moments you say, man, it was so worth it. And I would say from. Again, maybe I've not heard this from thousands, but from hundreds of people that have done groups, even in times where maybe the marriage didn't survive the ways they said. The healing journey has always been worth it, that what we put in was worth it in the end because of what it did in us, what it did in our relationships. And it is the best chance you have to make the marriage work is to invest and to keep going. And so I think if you can hear that word today, it's worth it. That might give you the courage to face some hard things.

Yeah. Tracy, we know that your story is rebuilding life after discovery, and I know that you're one of thousands, but I really appreciate you coming on, helping with the conversation and answering Melanie's question. I know that there are a lot of listeners who probably need this episode right now, and so we really appreciate you and your expertise and your story.

Thank you. I'm so grateful to be able to share about it.

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