373 - Empathy and Emotional Awareness

Foreigners. Good afternoon, good evening, good night. Whatever time you might be listening. Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. We are your biblically based and clinically informed approach to breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior and healing from betrayal. I'm your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to episode 373 here. Joining me today is guest co host Ashley Jamison. Ashley, welcome back.

Hello. I'm so glad to be here today.

Yeah, glad to have you. And so excited. I truly am excited about this topic. You know, when we've done 373 episodes, if I'm being totally honest, there's some that are like, you know, this is. I'm glad we're doing it, but it's maybe not on my heart or exciting. I just feel like when this topic came up, the realization that we really haven't covered it much on any of our other podcasts, I was excited about it and I think today's conversation was really great. Today we talked about empathy and developing emotional awareness.

Yeah, I was really surprised when you said you kind of like searched and didn't see that this was a topic for any of it because it is. It's so important to the recovery process for the individual, but also the couple for everybody that we have to develop empathy. And it's a huge part of. Of reversing what we've gotten into, because sticky situations, relationally or socially, sometimes can drive us to addiction. So people say, oh, I use alcohol as a social lubricant, or, you know, I felt, I feared relationship, and so I hired prostitutes because then it's just a transaction without the intimacy. And that the social aspect of things, which is getting worse with people living behind screens, sometimes drives us to. To the isolation and the addiction. And now we need to kind of flip that on its head. Break out of addiction and isolation and really lean into empathy, relationship, intimacy. And that can all be really scary. So it is a whole day's worth of conversation.

Well, I think we. We scratched the surface today, but I think we offer some really helpful thoughts and ideas and tools by the end because empathy is so key to healthy relationships. And we've seen it sometimes at pure Desire that people will be on their individual journeys. You know, the struggling spouse is overcoming the behaviors and looking how to live in sobriety and develop tools around that. The betrayed spouse working through their trauma and betrayal and figuring out, how do I trust again and what does forgiveness look like and how do I not rush into it? But there comes a point where the individual journeys have to become for a married couple have to become our journey. And that's an area that is not always as clear in the material and that we're looking at long term. How do we provide more tools there? But I think in the meantime, so much of it comes down to a betrayed spouse wanting to see and experience empathy from their struggling or addicted spouse. And so if you are a listener, that is all in that category in any way. Like, we're on our two journeys, but how are we doing on our journey together? This episode may become kind of that key connection point that if you work on empathy, so many other things can begin falling into place.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, and we clearly used a lot of examples from our own stories. So, you know, I'm like sleeping on the plane going, oh, I have another story. I have another story. Yes, I wish you would have done that different. I wish I would have done that different. Done that different. And so I think it's a. It's a really practical episode.

Yes, we've both had to learn some empathy. So, listeners, we hope you enjoy it. Here it is, our conversation on empathy and emotional awareness. All right, Ashley, an important topic today talking about empathy and emotional awareness. And we know that in recovery, this becomes one of those topics that's very, very important. It might not be what someone is looking for at the very beginning of their healing. It's typically, you know, the behavior that drives them into healing and recovery. But this becomes essential to healing relationships. And so I excited that we get to talk about it today. But let's start with just this. Like, how would you define empathy? What is empathy?

I think in the simplest terms, it's just understanding somebody else's emotions and emotions, meaning a combination of their mood and circumstance and what they're going through. Feelings, it kind of just encompasses all of that. So just really understanding and feeling for somebody else.

Yeah, I've always heard it kind of set apart from sympathy, that sympathy is more, I feel bad for you, or I have an experience of, oh, it's too bad you're going through that. Whereas empathy is more a willingness to enter in to their suffering, to in a sense, like, feel it in a way they feel it. And not, obviously, we're not encouraging people to become codependent or take on other people's suffering, but it's like that willingness to. To really be present with what they're feeling and say, I, I know how you feel. I've been there. I'm. I've walked through some similar things. Or I can see that that that pain is, you know, entering into more than just, oh, that's too bad, right? Yeah. I think it's Bernay Brown that has that little sketch on empathy where it's like, you know, you walk by someone in a hole and it's like, oh, it's too bad you're down there in a hole. Hope you get better.

Yeah.

Whereas empathy would be crawling down into the hole and be like, man, it's really rough being down here, and how can I help? So, yeah, I think taking it beyond just sympathy and feeling bad is what we're really trying to hone in on.

I think in, like, the epitome of empathy. I know we've had little skits of the mirror neurons, and you know that you can look up skits or little videos to understand mirror neurons, that when you see somebody suffering and sometimes you get that little ache, like you understand how they're feeling. Or I might watch a show where a child goes missing, and I automatically think, like, about my own kids, and, like, the pain almost is palpable of feeling that. And I think that's kind of a healthy place to be. But like you said, not crossing into codependency, but. But really feeling it as if you were experiencing it on some level, that's what moves us to change.

Yeah. Yeah, really making an attempt to, on some level, try to feel what they're feeling so that when we relate or when we reach out, when we connect, it's not just the, oh, I'm so sorry, but like, oh, I. I can kind of understand what you might be going through. This is what it would feel like to me. And the difference that makes, I think, in caring for someone in relationship really can be tremendous. So one of the things we know or have seen so often in sexual addiction or people who are struggling with unwanted sexual behavior is that very often empathy is something they struggle with. And so why is that? Why do people who have struggles with sexual addiction and unwanted sexual behavior typically struggle with empathy?

I'm thinking of so many different things that it may not be one thing. It could be that they never had it modeled for them. And so, I mean, that's how we learn how to be in relationships. And we learn to have a secure attachment style and a healthy attachment style is by being around that. And so if we didn't have it modeled, another thing is, you know, drugs and even process addiction, substances, they create ruts in our brain. They. They change the structure of our brain. And so there are Bible verses talking about, like, what sin will lead To. And there's scientific things that back up the Bible and saying, if we continue to do things that are pulling us away from relationship over and over and over, we're gonna strengthen those neurons. Like Heather says, the neurons that fire together, wire together. Of wanting to take care of myself, wanting to escape, wanting to isolate. As we say, you know, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. It's connection and relationship. Right. Am I. Is that close? Is that close?

Yeah, it's spot on.

Okay, Johan. Johan something.

Hari.

Hari. Okay, see, I'm close. And so all of those things of. The more we engage in addiction or our behaviors that isolate us from relationship, the more that's what we focus on. We start wanting to protect and wanting to be all about feeling good, escaping, and we lose touch with that relational component of it. The other side I was thinking of is if. If you are somebody who's struggling and you haven't really done the work and owned your own stuff yet, then if you're still in denial on a level of how bad your situation is, then it's going to be impossible to relate to somebody else. If you can't even identify your own emotions and feelings, how can you understand that for your spouse? Like, we have guys and women that come in and say, you know, oh, I don't have. I don't have childhood trauma. I don't have daddy issues. I don't. You know, I don't know why I do this. I'm just bored. And until they can get to that point of understanding why they do what they do, what led them there, what is it they're trying to escape or avoid or feel, then, you know, they're not gonna be able to do that for their spouse.

Yeah. Yeah. I. I think that's the reality that we've talked about, how emotions are like a dial on a wheel. And they're not all these separate dials, but we kind of have a master emotional switch or dial in our lives. And when we're stuck in unwanted sexual behavior or addiction, there's all kinds of unwanted thoughts or guilt and shame, self criticism, self doubt that we don't want to have to live with. And so we kind of dial all that back. And when we do that about our own journey or our own story, we've done that for all of our emotions. And our ability to connect with others is severely limited because we're not able to connect with our own pain and shame and maybe feelings of worthlessness. And so in trying to avoid dealing with that, we end up kind of Avoiding dealing with anything that makes us uncomfortable. And so I think that's something we see a lot. And I know, and this is. I would just echo, like this was my story. I believe that sexual addiction breeds selfishness. It really is. At its core, it's kind of a selfish way of going after what I think I need in the moment. And I mean, sadly, in my time of addiction, I wouldn't have recognized it as that. But as I look back, I can see that when I was, you know, uncomfortable, tired, dealing with shame, there were these triggers and patterns in my brain that that's what I would go back to, to get something that would make me feel good. And I think we see that happening for people with food or anger or workaholics, like, like we go to something that makes us feel good and that kind of becomes the point. Like it's about me feeling good. And that reinforces, I think, a way of life that says my, my main need in life is that I feel safe, I feel happy, I feel secure, I. And whatever that does to you or my spouse, you know, or in a relationship, like I'm not as tuned into because that's not what my brain is trying to protect. And that's really where we see it taking us away from what the Bible and Scripture invites us to because we really are, you know, in Christ. We see the invitation to an other centered way of life and a self sacrificing way of, of laying down my life for Christ and for others and how that leads to ultimate joy and ultimate satisfaction and lasting peace and, and all the things we really want in life in so many ways. Sexual addiction or unwanted sexual behavior is kind of the contrast of it says, no, get what you need, take care of your needs. And if that's become, and I would even add like even unintentionally. I'm not saying that people set out in addiction or in an unwanted behavior like, well, I just want to be selfish. I just want to ignore what other people think. That that's not where we start, but that's what develops along the way is I'm so focused on what I need in an unhealthy way that I'm not really able to enter into what you need. And so I think it is very, very common and something that has to be addressed in our recovery.

Yeah, and I really like what you're saying about, you know, your own personal story and how it could be unintentional because I had a recent experience with this with John when we were like navigating some boundaries and like, you know, we're all, you're always checking in on boundaries and what's working and what's not. And we had identified some things on social media that were not good. They were leading away from relationship instead of toward. And so we had both and him especially identified like, I need to not have this because it's really playing with fire. It's edging behaviors. And so he had identified some edging behaviors. If you haven't heard the edging podcast, go back and listen to it. It's very, very good. Not long ago I non codependently sent it to my husband to listen to. It was very good.

Thank you for clarifying that.

It gave language and, and it was really good for him to identify those behaviors. The kicker was after a few weeks of identifying those behaviors, those things slowly started to make their way back in of I think I can handle this or I need to work on it, but I'm not ready to fully let it go. And so in me being assertive spouse saying, okay, well I've heard you now for three or four days say this is not good for me yet I keep going back to it. So what's your plan to change that? Because now this is day three of saying the same thing. And so that's the part where we kind of got into tension because he reverted back into that like that protective mode of like, it's safe to not engage in conflict. Conflict is scary. I need to go into myself. And. And we had some really fruitful discussions on really empathy. I mean it was an empathy discussion, even though we wouldn't have titled it that, but we were talking about, you know, this is normal for spouses. This is really normal for spouses to say, I'm struggling for this many days in a row and another one to say, okay, well what are you going to do about change? Like, that's a very, very normal discussion. And I had said, at the risk of like putting fuel on the fire, I think you might be believing some of your distorted childhood lies where, where talking things out or even being able to like dive into conflict head on is so scary that you kind of just go back and in your going back that makes me feel like you don't care because all I see is you're doing the same thing on the surface, but inside you have this whole dialogue. And it was a really good conversation for us to realize when there's high stress levels, those attachment styles of whether you're avoidant or anxious, ambivalent, like Me, they can pop up. And if you're not very, very aware of them, then I see his reverting into himself, which he sees as safety. And, like, I don't want to say anything else to hurt her. I see that as withdraw and, and not wanting to be empathetic, but neither one of us were trying to hurt the other person. It's just we, We. We handled that stress in completely different ways.

Yeah. I think you're underscoring how important empathy is, because I know my wife and I have had some of those conversations along the way. If she'll point out a boundary or something that I haven't been as attentive to, and I can take it one of two ways. I can take it from the critical. She thinks I'm messing up. I can feel defensive, I can feel guilty, and I can even feel some of that sense of I'm so much healthier. I think this is okay now, and I kind of make it all about me.

Right.

But the other way, and I wish I did this more often in the moment. This usually takes some time. I'll say that I don't do it perfectly, is if I look at it from her perspective, like, why is she saying this? What is it? You know, because she doesn't want to just be my. My nanny, or like, she's not there to tell me what to do in life. It's to see that, okay, it's. It's causing something in her, an emotional reaction, whether it's fear, a reminder of old pain, a doubt about can I trust what he's doing or what's on his heart and mind. And if I'm willing to enter into that, it does change that dynamic. Because then I feel, wow, I don't, I don't want to make my wife feel that way. And I know what it's like to feel that I can't trust someone or that I'm going to be hurt by them. And that's hard to live with. And it's on your mind all the time. And even if it's not real, if you're feeling that, it can be very, very disruptive. Like, so if I'm willing to enter into that on my wife's side, then her request or her pointing out something about a boundary is like, okay, this is really important and it matters. It's something I want to pay attention to because I don't want my wife to have to feel those things. Yeah, it underscores, like I said, how important empathy is. So, Ashley, after discovery, I think A common thing that people experience in recovery is they'll begin to recognize and see how much they have hurt their spouse. And while that can be a good thing, this isn't quite the same as empathy. So how do we go from simply feeling bad about things we've done and how we've hurt people to actually empathizing with their pain?

Yeah, and this can be. I mean, it really can be difficult because one, you both have to be willing. You both have to be willing to just, like, navigate this very difficult season of being vulnerable at the risk of it hurting or triggering another person, being okay, that you may have caused the other person pain without you backing into some rescuing behaviors or. I mean, it's just. It's so intricate. And this is why group is so important. So important because there's people that have been there ahead of you. And so I, as you explained with Michelle, you know, like, this is not just, oh, I'm trying to be your nanny. I've had to go through seasons of that as saying, okay, I want to tell him that this is impacting my self image. I'm having trouble trusting him. It's impacting our sexual relationship. But I'm afraid if I tell him, then he'll feel like I'm parenting him, I'm smothering him. He's back in his home life where he has no choices. And so I have to be willing to take the risk that it might create a little conflict.

And.

And that's why group is so important. Like, I think you have to have outside people. I can't always be the one helping John develop empathy and. And vice versa. And so you. One, you have to have other people. And then when you're in group, you see yourself in other people's stories. You see the guy who's coming and struggling, and you. You can relate and you can hurt for him and. And know that I've been there too. But it's almost like you're starting to see yourself in another person, and you know that you want to offer them comfort and support and encouragement, and so maybe you can start to offer yourself that as well. I think the emotional impact letter is a big deal. You know, can feel almost bad to write it out like, these are all the way you've hurt me. And whether it's you're going through how I've been wounded inventory or writing an emotional impact letter, the idea is that you, as the betrayed spouse, are writing out all the ways this is hurt. Has it hurt your family financially? Has it hurt you Physically, sexually, in your, in your walk of, as a parent, in your career. I mean, I've gone through the list and, and, and showed John and told him that he really benefits also from examples like he's never been betrayed by a spouse or close friend. And so I sometimes have to be like, have you ever experienced betrayal? Like, can you think back and experience betrayal? I know for me, as a young, struggling, addicted mom, I lacked empathy in parenting. And so when I first opened up our betrayal and beyond and went through the abuse inventory, I self identified some of those things as a parent, like, you shouldn't be making such a big deal about that, you know, emotional abuse and things that were on the inventory. And I had to correct that by really just practicing. Like, even though I may not feel it, you know, they fall and scrape their self and I want to be like, get up, shake it off. You know, like, I had to practice what I know is right. And eventually it did become second nature or practice. I think I have add. It's undiagnosed. But when people are sick in my house, I have a very low tolerance, unless it's a cute little kid. And I just am like, you have a man cold, you need to get over it. But when I'm sick, I appreciate people like nurturing me and loving me. And so I have to think, really, that golden rule, like, how would I want to be treated? And even though I'm not feeling like pausing and making something for John, I know that's what I like and I know it would bless him. And so just sometimes you have to do it even though you don't feel it, and then it starts to become more natural.

Yeah, yeah. We'll talk about some of those strategies more in the tools. But I know that's been helpful for me when my wife on a few occasions has said, like, imagine if this happened to you. And she will describe a scenario that does kind of flip it more to things I care about or that are important to me. And it's like, oh, yeah, I would not like that at all. And she's like, that's how I'm feeling. Like, oh, so those metaphors can be helpful. I think a reality is that I can be hesitant as a struggler to enter into your pain because it's going to make me feel my pain. That if I really acknowledge how much it's hurt you and enter into your pain a little bit and feel it, that could potentially cause more guilt and shame for me. And I think in addiction, then we just try to avoid That, I mean that's so much what addiction is about, is avoidance. And even in recovery, we're still going to be battling avoidance. And so to see it as that and to name that and also to see it as minimization because that's a big part of addiction, that we to live with ourselves, to have some mental well being, we will minimize our behaviors so that we can sleep at night and be a functional human being. And in recovery, we're still maybe trapped in the minimizing like it wasn't really that bad or why people making such a big deal of it. But I think that's where that tool you mentioned, like the emotional impact letter, can be so healing because it's hard to minimize things that are put in black and white. And like, here's everything I'm going through and what this has done to me. And if we're willing to enter into that and let ourselves feel it, even if it is painful, and hopefully with the help of group or counseling, we've got others that are, are helping us navigate the voice of shame and you know, those negative voices. But if we can be present with the pain that we've caused and allow ourselves to feel it, I, I think that was a huge part of our journey as a couple because I was willing to see it as seriously as my wife was.

Yeah.

And I think when we only feel bad about what we've done, there usually comes a but at the end of that statement, like, oh, I really feel bad that I've hurt you, but you'll get over it. But I really feel bad that I've hurt you, but I think you're making too big of a deal with this. So maybe we don't say that but part out loud, but we're thinking it and we're trying to keep ourselves kind of free of having to go there. And so just saying I'm sorry I've hurt you or I know you're feeling bad, that is a good step. It's good to start seeing the impact of our behavior. But it does take us to another layer of healing when we enter into someone else's pain and we let it be big.

Yeah, yeah. And I think what like you, you kind of honed in on is if we don't break the denial and completely own our behaviors and how they've hurt ourselves and others, it's gonna be really hard to empathize. And I think that's why, you know, we have our groups the way they are. You, we have the spouse over here working through Betrayal trauma. And then you have the struggler over here working through the who, what, when, why, how, and understanding their addiction so that they can own it. Because when John went into group, it was like, well, I look at porn because you had a baby and you can't have sex for six weeks, you know, and it's like, well, no, then that doesn't explain the 20 years before we were married. You know, like, so there's. There's entering into group and thinking that you know why, and then really coming out, hopefully, if you've done the work and understanding why. And until you get to that point, you really can't move on to that third phase of bringing together. Now, I've processed through the betrayal trauma. I've understood my addiction and got some recovery under my belt. And now we need to really help each other through those triggers because you have to be at some kind of healthy state to be able to enter in and feel somebody's pain and know that you might get triggered and you might feel bad about it, but keep doing the right steps rather than shutting down and re isolating and reacting out.

Yeah. And as my wife and I will say a lot in our relationship or to our kids, that might help explain it, but that doesn't excuse it. And we still have work to do. Exactly. You know, so, like so many aspects of our recovery, empathy and learning. Empathy is not a one and done kind of thing, which might be hard to hear because starting to empathize with our spouse's pain is hard. It's like, wow, this is. This is big and painful, and we've got work to do. And you might get through some of that initial empathy, maybe in discovery and in those initial months where you're really intensely focused. But there's a need to keep growing in empathy. So what does it look like to continue growing in empathy once maybe we're starting to develop some of that?

Yeah. You know, actions speak so loud. And I do want to say here it's empathy also feels like that question of, how do I get my spouse to love me more? How do I. There's. There's this part of the question where it might not be the answer you want. You may not get the result you want, because we can't do anything for somebody else that they don't want to do for themselves. And. And so trying to help your spouse empathize is something that a betrayed spouse can do. But what they do with the information, what they do with what you've shared, is ultimately up to them. And Kelly McDonne McDaniel, in her book Mother Hunger, she refers to something as an apology ache, where you so long for somebody to recognize how they've hurt you and apologize. And, and that's that gap where, as a betrayed spouse, you're gonna lay out your emotional impact letter. You're gonna. You're gonna try to help your spouse see, like, okay, imagine you're in my position, and, you know, this is how you would feel. I, you know, you're gonna lay all that out, and then there's this space that it's up to them to do, and you have to be prepared to wear that apology ache and recognize it. And I think even just naming it is. Is empowering because we tend to feel the most distraught, depressed, and helpless, hopeless when we don't have options. And so even if the option isn't good, we need to make sure that we're equipped with options. And my option may be I'm recognizing I have an apology ache. And it's up to them to start acting empathy. And they may or may not, never. They may or may not ever do it. And so that's just the reality of the situation. There's nothing we can tell you on this podcast to make your spouse empathetic or even make you empathetic. We can just give information. And so in growing in that, I. I believe I've seen John grow in ways of tangible things, like, oh, you. You are now having to do two hours of group plus homework because of something I brought into our marriage. And. And I've broken trust over and so let me take care of dinner tonight. Let me, you know, really like offering. I want to help take this burden off of you because I understand that there was a burden that you didn't ask for put on you. And so matching actions to help, to help back up what you're saying, I think is really good that you're not just saying, I understand, but you're recognizing it and seeing where you can step in continuing to read and understand. I know that in our betrayal material we have, the spouses really understand addiction because it equips them with knowledge to be able to come alongside their spouse. And so reading books and listening to podcasts and learning to grow. I love when John says, I just read this in a book, and is this how you feel when I do that? And I'm like, yes. You know, because if you're just in your little, you know, relationship that's been. There's been a. There's been an injury or fracture, then sometimes we can think it's just my spouse overreacting, or it's just this. And when you're able to read other resources, listen to other podcasts, and you bring the information to your spouse and say, I just heard this and I feel really bad that I put this on you. Is this how you feel? I think shows your spouse that you're doing the work. And then ask your spouse, ask, what are the ways that would make you feel safe? Like, I'm listening. You know, I tell John, like, you get this glassy eyed look and like, I know you are not here. Your body is here, but your mind is not here. And so, like, being able to freely have those discussions of saying, when I see that you're not actually here, like, let's just take a pause and then I'm gonna wait for you to come back and then really do your work as the struggling spouse to be like, why was I not there? Is it because it was emotionally hard? Is it because I'm tired? Is it because. And come back and give your spouse the answer of saying, you know, I realized this was really hard for me and so I checked out and I'm sorry that I did that to you and I want to be here to listen.

And that was such a gift that Dr. Ted Roberts had in our counseling. You know, he would notice me either looking away or getting kind of glassy eyed, and he'd be like, nick, come back. Where are you going? Where are you? And he would ask right in that moment, like, what were you feeling? And it wasn't just that I was bored. Like, there was. Every time he'd be like, I realized I was feeling triggered with worthlessness, or I realized that the pain my wife was sharing was I was just feeling overwhelmed by it. And I didn't want to have to feel that. And to name that and to see that actually became a very, very healing part of our process. Yeah, I think in this area of growth, like, anything, what we want to see in others, we can't force, but we can ask, how am I growing in this? And so if I'm growing in empathy and expressing that, very often that becomes a part of a relationship repeated back to us. I also think if we're on the betrayal side and we're really looking to see, like, man, my spouse hurt me so much for so long now. I want perfect empathy. Right? Like, if those are your expectations, you're going to be disappointed because someone that's gone through years or even decades of not being very empathetic and being Stuck in their addiction, they're not just going to flip a switch. And now they're perfectly empathetic. So I think it's one of those areas where we can ask, am I looking for perfection or growth? And growth, I think, is an appropriate expectation. And then when we see growth, are there ways that we can reward that in terms of, like, what you just said, If a. If a betrayed spouse points out to their struggling spouse, who's going to group and doing the work, like, wow, I can see the work you're doing, and that means a lot to me. And thank you for investing in this way and caring about our relationship. And I know that must be hard because these aren't easy assignments and this isn't easy work. And, like, that encouragement, I think, goes a long way for that struggling spouse to feel like, oh, I'm making progress. They're seeing it. And I get that you may not always be able to do that. And when you're betrayed, especially early on, you may not be in a state of mind to offer that kind of encouragement. I get that. But if you can just look at that hope of growth, and when you see growth, how can you point it out? And in a good way? Pointing that out is a reward to the struggle who goes, oh, they're seeing something. I want to do more of that. If you're on the struggler side, the growth, I think this is really to just accept that this is not a problem to solve. It's a tension that we have to live in.

Yeah.

That we're not going to fix empathy for our spouse and be like, oh, well, now I'm empathetic, and we're all good and we can move on. And I think maybe more for men, we want to fix the problem. We want our spouse, we want our wife to feel like, I'm empathetic. And now we can check that box. We've done empathy. Now let's go back to all the other stuff we're doing in life. But empathy is, I think, an ongoing tension of. And not even around addiction. But our spouses need to see and understand that we really do care. We're really aware of what they're experiencing, and we're willing to enter into it rather than just be like, well, hope you get better, whatever. You know, that's. That's not going to create strong relationship. And. And the good news is, you know, when you are in recovery, you. You may not be able to do this with everybody. It takes work. But with your spouse, if you're married, that is an area where we want to slow down and say, lord, help me to learn empathy and keep coming back to it. And maybe you made some progress in the first couple of months where you saw the pain and, like, that was part of your healing that broke you to a point of actually changing it. But you're gonna have to keep coming back there and saying, help me understand what you're experiencing from me now. And where am I showing empathy and where have I missed it? Because when you open that door, you may be surprised some moments that they say, boy, in this moment, I just feel like you didn't care at all. And you weren't even aware of that. You're like, oh, I didn't even know that was at stake. In that moment. I was just, you know, driving the car to wherever, and I was making you feel unsafe, and I'm. I wasn't even aware. But if you ask the question, then you. You get the information you might need to keep building on. So if. Yeah, if we're willing to see it again, to go back and say it's not a problem to solve or something to fix, It's a growth area. It is a tension that we're gonna live in. And I think, as married couples work on for the rest of our lives. And I don't mean that in, like, a negative, like, good luck. It's never gonna get better. I just mean it can keep getting better and better and better, but it's something all of us can keep working on.

Well, and even a deeper level of empathy, because I know I've shared this before. When I was a single mom, I set timers to give my boys hugs because it was not modeled for me. I was, like, basically raised myself, and so I lacked the nurture part of upbringing. No hugs. No. No. I love you. Like, that's very important to show people that you love them and. Or to when they're hurting, you know, to show that you are there and you care about them. And so I had to mimic things that I knew were what normal people did. Yeah, normal, healthy people. And so I'd set timers. But also, I find myself now, even on a deeper level with, you know, child number four than I did one, two. And. And it stinks that your kids have to be kind of your learning curve. But Waylon will kind of walk around the house sometimes and sing that song. I don't even know what it's off of it. You used to love me. You know, you're like the song guy.

I don't know It's a kid's song. Okay.

Okay. It's gonna drive me crazy.

We'll come back to it.

Okay? So he'll sing that in a joking way when he'll be like, mom, did you stop listening? I'm like, yes, four sentences ago. Because I so, like, numb out. Or Ayla will. Last night I was trying to pack, getting ready to come here, and she's hugging me, and she's like, I missed you when I was at camp. And I'm like, okay, I got a pack. And then I realized I did that because hugs are not normal for me. Kisses are not normal for me. Being really. Stopping and pausing and looking to eyes of my children. And hugging is not, you know, something that comes second nature. And so once I realized it, then I was able to go back to her and give her a really big hug and pause and say, I missed you too. And so if you realize you should have done something different, go back right away. Like, John picked me wildflowers off of our property. And he came in, and I was sitting in my office, and I was looking through some papers, and I was really deep into my file cabinet, and he handed me. I was like, oh, those are pretty. Can you put them in a. I handed him back, and he. And later I could see he was kind of down. He's like. I was like, did I do something wrong? And he's like, well, you kind of just hand me the flowers back. And I was like, okay. I was feeling triggered because I was looking at my file cabinet at my old doctor's. You know, chronic illness stuff. I'm so sorry. And I said, what would you have wanted me to do? Like, what were you expecting me to do? And he says, I was kind of thinking I'd bring you flowers from our property, and you'd stand up and give me a hug, and you'd set your papers down, and you'd go find a vase and put them in your window because you love flowers in your window. And I was like, check, check, check, check, check. You know, so, like, even though it didn't come.

No, those are good things to do. Okay.

But I will definitely do that next time. And I can see how he wanted me to have jo of flowers in my window. And I kind of just handed them back. And so I think it's okay if. If it's not ingrained in us yet, but we're making an effort to say, I. I want you to feel special when you do something like that. And I'm sorry that I didn't make you feel special and trying?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's. It's an ongoing growth curve for couples, for sure. So what? And you've touched on a couple of examples already. But if we haven't grown up in environments where empathy was modeled, well, in our family of origin, I know many people will say, you know, they've had very emotionally distant fathers in particular, but it can be mothers as well. Where they were in environments, just empathy was like, not even a concept people were thinking about. So if that's some of our experience and for listeners, what would you say? How could we learn empathy and emotional awareness if we don't have good examples?

Yeah, I think, hands down, surrounding yourself with people who know how to do it well and who model it. Just like if you have a. If you are in an unhealthy attachment style, you want to surround yourself with securely attached people, because seeing it modeled, you can still do, even if you didn't have that done at a young age. And so whether that's through books or podcasts, but a lot of times for me, it's through interaction. I had a young gal in one of my unraveled groups, and she had experienced abuse, incest, rape, all kinds of things. It was just so she was numb to feeling those kinds of things. And I saw her start to develop empathy through group. Not necessarily in group, but that too. But also her stories that she would share of staying with a couple and seeing how they interacted with their child because she did not have a normal childhood with the incest that happened. And so she would say something like, oh, the kid did something bad and the parents didn't, you know, it was just a. Like a toddler thing, you know, and the parents didn't overreact. And she said that just opened up this whole new world of how you could interact with somebody, even though they did something, like, offensive. And so not just in a relation, like a romantic relationship, but if you're a single person and you're not sure how to be empathetic, surround yourself with couples, surround yourself with friends that show empathy. If you've ever had a friend show up and bring you chicken noodle soup because you were sick and you just thought that was so nice, but you would have never thought to do that then be thinking of those things. And so I think that's the best teacher. I also think when we take the substance we're using to. To numb ourselves or escape, whether it's alcohol, drugs, gambling, sex, whatever it is, and we start being present with our feelings, then we. We have more opportunity to say, what am I feeling right now? What was I just feeling? And we're more sensitive to. To what is going on in ourselves, which can also make us more sensitive to other people because we're feeling our feelings more.

Yeah. Yeah. I think we absolutely need to get around people that we feel are empathetic, and we can listen and learn and watch. And I think that is key. Watch how they do life. Not just get more information, but if possible, try to see them with their spouse, try to see them with friends and family, and watch how they respond to situations. And that can become, I think, tremendously helpful. I also think if we grew up in environments where we didn't see this modeled, that can actually be in and of itself a kind of teacher that we can look back at our origin and family of origin story and say, what do I wish I had experienced because of what I know I was lacking? And now that I'm getting healthier and able to kind of have this objective perspective about my past, what do I wish my parents had done? What are the kind of things that I needed when I didn't make the sports team or I got the bad grade or I got hurt by a friend that I didn't receive? And then kind of translating that to say, okay, how can I become that for my kids, for my spouse, for my friends? And so even I think those lacks or the emotional unavailability. Our parents and our past can be the thing we look at and say, okay, in a healthy way. How can I reverse what I experienced? And that could help us grow even in those ways.

That's such a good example, because my mom was. She had. She was an rn, so she was a nurse, and she had her master's in social work. So everything was pathologized. It was like there was a diagnosis for everything wrong. Like, this friend hurt me at school. And it's like, I think your thyroid levels are off because you're depressed. And so everything needed a medication. And that was something that I like. You're saying, I did not want to do that to my kids. And so now listening to them, even though I may have my own ideas of things, like really listening all the way because I don't want to just slap a diagnosis on them. Or like my aunt, who's the lawyer, you get two words and that's it. And then she's like, get to the point. You know, like, tell me right now, you're wasting my time. And so it's like listening to the really long stories, letting them share all the things about their friends. Those are the things I didn't get and that I wish I had growing up.

Yeah. You know, for me, I'm realizing empathy takes patience, and patience is something I'm not very good at. That willingness to sit, to listen, to take time, and, you know, if there's the part of me going, could we hurry up and get to the point? It's like, okay, you know what? Enter into this. Because there's probably something. And I get that there are people, that their approach may be very slow, and I think in helpful ways, you could say, you know, what's the point here? You can kind of focus them. But in general. In general, I know for me, I need to just quiet that voice and go. Just listen.

Yeah.

And try to enter into what they're saying. So. Yeah. Well, what would you say as people go about this and are wanting to grow in empathy, what are some of the tools that you've either recommended or seen be successful in helping couples develop empathy?

I did mention the impact letter that John said that was really, really helpful for him to see it all written out, because I have a chronic disease, and so being able to say, when those stress levels hit, my body flares, and then I'm down and out for this many days, and really helpful for him. The other thing I wanted to mention, just, you know, overseeing groups for just about nine years now. Sometimes couples come through and they spend years in group, and then they realize one of the spouses has some kind.

Of.

Spectrum disorder or some kind of neurodivergent something going on. And I've had a couple of people in my early groups be like, he just is not getting it. He is not like. It's like nothing's there. It. It's so frustrating for them, and it keeps them stuck. And so I. I just wanted to pause here. For those that have tried all these things that we're saying, you really might want to see a mental health professional that is specialized in some of these other things, like Asperger's and autism. Because one of my girlfriends in my group, her husband is successful. Two of them actually very successful in business thriving. I mean, you would never look at them and be like, oh, they have something going on. Both of them ended up having Asperger's, and both ended up getting their brain scans and whatever shows up to show. The relational part was very, very small, and it gave them so much understanding. And so although their husbands didn't switch into being able to be naturally Empathetic. It explained why. And so much grace, too, to be able to say he is physically, like very incapacitated in this area, to be able to feel those things. And so it became more of a modeling and mimicking of. This is what you. This is what I need you to do when I'm feeling this way. And then they do that because they love their spouse, not necessarily because they're feeling it or know to do that. And so that's why one of the tools might need to be a mental health professional. The impact letter. And then I really have found for those who are in group and they're leaning in and they're willing to do the work. The Gottman after math of a fight.

Tool, of a regrettable incident, of a regrettable incidence. Yeah, he gets very.

Not fight.

A little technical there.

Yeah. So that tool has been very helpful because then you're like, okay, what happened? Clearly we had some tension here. And then when things are calm and you're back in your window of tolerance, as much as possible, you're able to sit down and say, why was I triggered? What was I feeling? And be able to share that with each other. And there's a list of rules that you kind of. It kind of walks you through, how to share with each other and validate each other's pain, each other's feelings and triggers.

Yeah. And we'll put that in the show notes. I think that Gottman tool is available on some PDFs out there. And I know it's in a couple of his books. A couple of things that come to mind for me of, like, tools that I've seen be helpful and some that I've employed. One is to play a little game called how would an empathetic person respond in this situation? Because if we feel like I'm not very empathetic, we might. And you kind of mentioned it too, of like, just think ahead and say, well, if I was super empathetic, what would I do in this moment? Okay, then go do that. And I think one of the traps we fall into is we think I can only do it if I'm really feeling it. And if I'm not really feeling that, so I just don't say anything or I don't end anything. Otherwise it's fake. You know what? It's okay to try to try on empathy and be like, I think an empathetic person would grab their hand and look them in the eye and say, I understand how you're feeling. Okay, I'm going to try that. You know, and it may feel inside, may feel a little fake, but I will tell you, in the moment in that relationship, it comes across like, wow, they're really making an effort. And even if it's a little stilted or less than natural, I think if it's a spouse in this situation or a friend, it's like, wow, they're trying. And that can open some doors. Another tool. I think we've talked a lot about things like a Fanos check in, where on a regular basis, whether it's nightly or a few times a week, you and your spouse sit together and specifically have an opportunity to share feelings. Here's something I've been feeling today, and if you're the one receiving their check in or hearing their feelings, to really listen. And if you're not sure you totally understand the feeling they're expressing, to ask, you know, exploring questions like, can you tell me a little more about, like, why did that situation cause you to feel such anxiety? I'm really curious about that. Or it'd be helpful for me to. To hear more of what you were going through, because I didn't realize that was happening. So just those opportunities to check in, I think are big. I would say for me, one of the most important tools was to listen for feelings, not facts. Listen for the feeling, not the facts. Because my wife, especially in that first year of recovery, would be emotionally sharing something about how I always did this or that. And I would hone in on the fact of, like, well, not always. Because there was this time I didn't and this time I didn't. And what I would miss in that moment is I was totally undercutting her feelings. I was getting focused on the truth of let's. Well, let's actually count up how many times it was when what she needed me to hear was, wow, in these situations, I have consistently caused you pain. Is that how you're feeling? Like, it didn't matter what was truth or not? Because when we're venting feelings and emotions, we're not trying to get the facts straight, right? We're just trying to get out there what we're feeling. And so I had to remind myself a lot in those conversations, like, okay, she's angry. There's stuff coming out. Don't correct her, don't correct the details, don't fact check. Listen to the heart behind it and try to ask a question. And that was the fourth tool that I think has been so helpful and that I would recommend is making that summarizing statement and repeating back to them what you think they've heard. Because if we're not good at empathy, one of the dangers is we aren't really hearing or understanding what we think we are. And when we repeat back and say, so what I've heard you say is, when I do this, I'm really making you feel X, Y and Z. And they might say, that's exactly right. Okay, we've got something to build on. Or they may say, well, no, it's more this. Oh, okay. So giving that opportunity to actually establish. Are we on the same page here? Have we heard one another? Do you think I've recognized or understood what you're trying to share with me? Because that does. It validates what they've said, it validates their feelings, it helps them feel heard and seen and all the things we want. Whereas if we just say, oh, thank you for sharing, and they're like, does he get it? Does he really know what I'm feeling? Or is he just trying to end the conversation?

Exactly.

So those summarizing, kind of repeating back to them what you've heard, I think is really a great key as well.

Yeah. Everything you said and, you know, as you're sharing, I'm thinking, you know, back to my initial story of John, you know, edging and me trying to explain, like, hey, this is day three of the same behavior. At one point there was a comment of, I just can't do anything right. And I was like, this is the moment where we're not talking about this anymore because it's about you when you know that if I can't do anything right, that's where your mind is at when, like, you're saying it's. I was trying to share my feelings. When you do these behaviors and look at these things, it makes me feel this way. I'm not trying to say that you don't do anything right. I'm trying to say these behaviors are harmful. And so not only the summarizing back, but then also, what is your plan to move forward in that? So if you hear me say these behaviors cause me a lot of fear and anxiety, make me feel insecure, make me feel sexually disconnected, then I hear that, and I'm going to choose to take that app off my phone because I don't really need it. And it's clearly not. We're not there yet. We're not there for that boundary yet to be brought down. And then I don't think we can ignore. I know me the faster scale. Because when I was a single or not single, mom, but stay at home. Mom with four little kids. And John would come home from work and then go into the bedroom or the living room and just, like, get on the iPad and disconnect. A whole bunch of narrative would run through my head, and I start slamming cupboards and being like, what's going on? So much work, you know, and so being able to do the faster scale of saying, oh, he had a bad day at work, and he's feeling this, and he's, you know, he's kind of watching his process of why he's now feeling like he needs to escape. And then being able to share my process of feeling like nobody understands. I want to run away. I want to cry. And bringing those together and saying, okay, how can we help each other as a couple? Like, how much time do you need alone? And so then when we were able to discuss that and make a commitment to change, when he'd come home and kind of disengage on the couch for 30 minutes, I was able to be like, this is good for him. This is good for us. He. I'm helping serve him in the fact of he needs some time to decompress between work and kids, and ultimately it's gonna be better for our relationship. And then he's able to say, what do you need? How about I do the dishes after dinner and you go up and take a bath and read a book, and you disconnect. And it started to feel more like a team of understanding each other versus like, he comes home and then he and I have the harder job, and he doesn't even understand how hard it is to be home with kids all day, and. And it just really changed the narrative for us.

Yeah, I know. My wife and I are both middle children and in pain. We both kind of run to the, what about me? No one's noticing me. You know, take care of me. But if we're both doing that, it does take a willingness on one side or the other to go, okay, I'm going to kind of lay aside the voices I'm hearing about, pay attention to me, notice me. And I'm going to. I'm going to try to move across that bridge and just say, what do you need? And how can I help? And we all probably have that need to some degree to at times lay aside what we're battling and try to say, what do they need in this moment? And how if I show that empathy and I show that care for them, might I get some of that reciprocated as well? So let's talk about that a little bit because most of the episode we have really focused more maybe on the struggling and addicted spouse because that is often where empathy has been lacking. But let's speak specifically to betrayed or hurting spouses in this scenario that if someone is the betrayed spouse and they feel that their struggling or addicted partner isn't growing in or showing empathy, what can they do? Because as we talked about, you can't force or make someone be empathetic. But what could we do in that scenario?

Well, I have a lot of examples because I am the friend that's like, I have all the things for you to try. Just let me know when you want examples and suggestions. And so I guess there's a couple things to say, you know, if their lack of empathy is really damaging the relationship, you may come to a point where you have to decide if this is the relationship that you're able to be in, whether that's because of lack of safety or repeated trauma or affairs that we can't just continue to hope for somebody to change. Like there has to be change. And whether you do that for yourself or you choose to not engage in that relationship anymore is up to you. So you do have options. I was talking to a friend recently who's whose husband is very, very in just a bad addiction spot. And they were really struggling because they wanted their spouse to show up for this event. And I was like, do you really want them to show up for this event or do you want them to want to show up? Because what's going to happen? Yes, you want them to care. And that's what we got to. Is that apology ache. Like I want them to want to. But what do you do when they don't want to? You have to one recognize I'm not really. Or, or, or my friends that bounce from relationship to relationship, they always have to have a boyfriend. It's do you really want that or do you want the relationship? Do you want this person or the relationship? So identifying what it is you want, do you want this same relationship the way it is always, or do you want them to change? And so that's one question you have to ask yourself. And if it's a safety issue, you may need to disengage from that relationship, period. But you also have the option to do those things for yourself. So like my friends that I talked about with the husbands that have Asperger's, they have the financial option to fill some of those gaps that their husbands are not able to or willing to. And so instead of wishing he would help with the chores, wishing he would help with dinner, wishing he would help with the kids, wishing. And it just being like, okay, it's been 18 years and nothing has changed. How about you hire a housekeeper, you hire some meal kits that come, you know, to your house. How about you hire a tutor to come help take the homeschooling off of your shoulders for one day. How about you put your kids in school? How about you? I mean, there are so many options.

To kind of create margin.

Yes. Like what do I need? Because it's usually these same things of financial struggles, helping with the kids. All these things are, I don't ever get a break. He doesn't help me. I don't, you know, he doesn't see me. And it's like, go schedule yourself a massage and schedule yourself a night at the hotel. Get some of those friends, healthy friends and small groups that can rally around you to help with kids. You can fulfill so much emotional love and fulfillment and receive empathy from friendship that meets that need. As you understand, I'm not going. There's a point where I have to say I'm not getting it from here. And I hope they will change and I'll be here when and if they do. But I have to stop trying to force this to happen because I found that in the trying to force it to happen is when I get the most discouraged, when I just own it and say, here, John, is how I've been hurt. Here's what I need to feel safe. And now I'm gonna wait. And it's sucks that I have to wait to see if you want to do something with that or not. I have to be willing to just kind of wait in that painful gap and meet my own needs in another way.

Yeah. Yeah. That's what was coming to mind for me is how important group is because we absolutely need empathy in our lives and our spouse might be in a place for a variety of reasons. They're not currently providing that in ways that we need or are craving. But a group that can sit with us and say, you know, what you're feeling is so totally normal and we're so sorry you're going through that and we've felt some of that pain and we're here for you and you're not crazy and you're not alone and know those, those thoughts you're hearing about yourself, that's normal that you're getting really self critical. But let's, let's lean into God's truth together and if, if we're getting empathy in some healthy places and that may even be in some professional counseling or coaching where someone is helping us learn to think differently. I think then we find that we're able to show up in our marriage relationship where maybe there isn't empathy and to navigate that better to navigate, you know, to maybe make some allowance of like, you know, I'm not getting it from them and I pray and hope and one day maybe that will be growing in our relationship. But for right now, I am able to get it in these places, which makes me a better spouse, makes me able to be present. And that won't fix your spouse, but I think it does help meet some of your needs, right? I think when it comes to your spouse, the thing I would ask is have you shared with them in a way that they've had the mental time and space to really hear and receive? Because I think sometimes in marriages we can be guilty of doing a lot of kind of on the go comments and maybe they turn into inadvertent or intentional barbs of like, you never do this or you're always saying that or how come you never have done that for me? And the spouse is feeling defensive and yet you move on because you're taking the kids to soccer and you're on your way to church and you're getting the groceries. And in this kind of scenario, I think if you really are struggling and feeling like, man, empathy is really lacking in our relationship, to go to your spouse and say when would be a good time for us to have an honest conversation about an area of our relationship? I'd love to see growth. And maybe it's an evening, maybe it's a date night, maybe it's a quiet morning you have. And as you approach that morning, I would even encourage that you've written out some thoughts and even kind of read through them to see am I being really angry and accusative or am I authentically sharing my heart to express some needs and say, I need to know that you see what I'm going through, that you feel what I feel. And maybe even having a few examples of here are some times where I was looking for that and this is what happened instead. And if you can do it in a non accusatory, you know, angry way, which is how it often comes out in the run of the busyness of life. I think you'll find if that your spouse is well, intent, they want to care for you, they don't want to have a bad marriage, they don't want an Angry spouse, they don't want to get those critical remarks. And if they're able to sit and process with you and maybe hear. So maybe it's not the level of an emotional impact letter, because often that is happening in a counseling scenario, but maybe it's more you just sharing. I think this is lacking. And I really, you know, if you're focusing on your needs, I need it for us to have a good relationship. And with this not present, it's really difficult for us to grow together. I'm not saying then that that promises a good outcome, but I think you've at least given yourself a chance, an opportunity for them to really hear your heart, hear where you're coming from, and begin to work on some things. And so if you say, yeah, I've never really done that, I've just made offhanded comments and said, you never empathize, well, this may be worth a shot to really sit and have that conversation and then see what fruit comes from it.

I like what you're saying because with having a husband who had a hard time sharing his feelings and thoughts and it totally different now, has grown so much, but there's been years where like six, seven months would come, you know, go by, and then all of a sudden he would just like, blow up at me about something and he's like, well, you know, you all, you always do this or you always do that, and it is something that I, I genuinely pretty much always do or did. And, and I. But my thought was, why didn't you tell me this back in October? It's April. Like, I want a chance to change. I don't want to do things that are hurting you, especially if I don't even see it that way. I'm just completely oblivious. And so it hurts me to know that for five, six, seven, eight months you've been feeling this way, and I had no idea and I just kept doing this. I do not want to feel that way. And so you have to be brave. And I know that wasn't something he was able to do in his childhood. You have to be brave and tell me when things are bothering you so I can change it. Because I don't want to keep doing something that bothers you or makes you feel unappreciated or things like that. So speaking up and sharing is always going to be a hard step and come with risk. You know, that it could create conflict, but really important.

Yeah. Yeah. In one of the marriage books my wife and I read together, the author made a comment to say, like, believe that your spouse is, at their core, you know, in their best day or their best state of mind, they are truly a kind hearted person that wants your marriage to succeed. And if we believe that, it now becomes more of saying, well, how do I tap into that? And I think the vast majority of us fall into that category. Like I said, we want to have a good marriage, we want to be a good spouse. And so if we can get conversation happening in a way that helps us see, like, this would make you a really dynamic, better spouse. Like, oh, there's something in me, like, wants that. But if we believe that at their core, our spouse is a selfish jerk that doesn't care about us, that's going to come out in the way we do every conversation. And I know there's certainly marriages that don't make it, and there are people that are so locked in narcissism or their patterns of behavior, they're not willing to change. And those are kind of a different category. But I think for most of us, we could say, lord, help me to believe that my spouse is kind hearted and does want our marriage to thrive and help me to approach them in that spirit and look to bring that to the surface. And that can just make a world of difference. Ashley, I think this has been a phenomenal conversation. I think empathy is a huge key to people growing in recovery and in their relationships. Is there any final advice or encouragement that you'd want to share to just help us all grow in this area of empathy?

Yes. First, I remember the song. It's. Do you want to build a snowman?

Oh, is it?

It is.

Okay.

You used to love me, but now you don't. Right. Do you want to build a swimming.

Okay, I'm glad you thought of it.

Thank you, Jesus.

I'm sure we would have had listeners writing in to help you out.

They would have. Can we put that in the show notes? So my final advice. I don't love the saying fake it till you make it, but there is some truth there. So I was trying to think of another one. Like, act it until you fact it. Okay. But when you think of the CBT triangle, you have your behaviors, thoughts and feelings. Feelings, yes. That there is so much truth in. We can control our behaviors to some level and our thinking. And so if we're doing the act of empathy for our spouse, but in our head, we're like, this is so annoying. She could get her own soup. She, blah, blah. That's not gonna help us get there. Like, really develop it and learn it for ourselves, like feel it. And so in our behaviors and what we're thinking behind those behaviors, model empathy and model what we know is right. And eventually those feelings will catch up. They, they will on some level. And like you said, we're not going to get it perfect all of the time because we're human. But if you genuinely try to act it and think those things, rewrite those thoughts, you know that our mental thoughts take up actual real estate in our brain and, and really change the structure of our brain and so make sure that what we're doing is also backed up by thinking the right way too. And then eventually, hopefully those feelings will help you develop that.

I think that's such great advice because it's so true and we've seen it in a lot of areas of life that you can behave your way into feeling and believing that if you act a certain way over time, your brain and body, it's all connected and they start to act in accord with it and believe in accordance. And that's kind of connected. What I was going to say that I think at the same time we can also believe our way into our behaviors by changing what we think and what we believe about ourselves. And in this area, I think sometimes we categorize people and think, well, there's really empathetic people and then there's people who aren't. And we might even think, I'm just not an empathetic person. And I really don't think empathy is that category. Like either you have it or you don't, or it's a skill some people have. Almost like extrovert, introvert, like you're one or the other. I think empathy is a skill we can all learn and we can all grow in. And if we could go around in our lives believing, I am an empathetic person or I am capable of showing deep empathy, then we may actually begin to do it because we believe it, we believe it's possible, rather than thinking, well, I'm not very empathetic, but I guess I'll try and I never will be, but I'll just keep trying. No, believe that you can do this. Believe that God. I think about the fruit of the Spirit and God's saying, I gave you a spirit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness. Patience and kindness are a huge part of empathy. And if we believe that the Holy Spirit is in us and we have his fruits, we can lean into that and say, lord, you've helped me. You've remade me as a kind, patient person. Help me to be that to my spouse, because I believe that's who I am now. Help me to behave in accord with that belief. And over time we might find like, wow, I actually am an empathetic person. I thought I wasn't, but look what God has done. So I think if we believe that over time it will change. So.

Absolutely. Holy Spirit is a good empathy teacher. If we allow that space.

If we allow. So good. Well, Ashley, this has been a great conversation. Developing empathy is so key to the recovery and growth of our relationships, especially marriages. And if we don't learn empathy, we can walk in sobriety for months or years, but still be stuck relationally. So thanks for contributing so much to this conversation. I know that it's going to help a whole lot of people.

Yeah. I was really glad to be part of this conversation today because it's. It's a crucial one.

Yeah. Well, if you're a fan of our content, please subscribe to the podcast, share it with somebody else, and write us a review. It helps us get the word out. If you'd like more information about our groups, resources, or counseling, go to PureDesire.org and journey on. My friends, you are not alone.

Sam.