374 - 10 Mistakes When Launching Recovery Groups

Foreign.

Hello there, good listeners. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is episode 374, and here joining me today is my friend and guest co host, Rich Moore. Rich, welcome to the show.

Hey, great to be here. 374. We were just talking earlier. It's like, wow. 374. That's crazy.

Yeah. And I wonder how that relates to the number of wins the Chicago Bears have in franchise history.

Well, I know this is.

We're close to football kickoff when this episode comes out.

Yes. And because this episode isn't out yet, I will say that they started with a win last night.

The hall of Fame, the hall of Fame game.

Even though they only played three quarters. But. And it's preseason. A wins, a win.

Win's a win. Well, hey, Chicago Bear fans are happy they got the number one pick. How you feeling about your new quarterback?

Yeah, we'll see some mixed reviews. I'm a. I'm a diehard Bears fan, but there was a couple other QBs I would have liked to see.

Yeah, well, we know that not all of our listeners are football fans, and that is totally okay. But this is a season of kicking things off. And very often it's a time when churches might be launching groups and might be launching recovery groups, like a Pure Desire group. And so, Rich, today you and I had a conversation about 10 common mistakes that we see churches make. And maybe inadvertent, maybe it's just a lack of understanding, but there are mistakes that we see in launching recovery groups. So why is it, why is it so important that churches understand some of these principles?

Well, I think it's. It's really simple, really. It's. It's. If they want healthy groups that are going to be sustainable and long lasting, they have to walk through these and make sure that they're not making these mistakes. And part of not making those mistakes is using the tools that are available. And what I mean with tools like that is, is reaching out to us for support and training and all that stuff that we have to offer. Oftentimes you'll hear or you'll see a church, they'll order product and they'll never reach out. It's like, we don't want that to happen because they're often on their own. They don't understand. The leaders don't understand. And that's the number one mistake right it's like, hey, we're here to support you. This isn't all on you. You know, we can help train your leaders. We can help train the church. We can help, help, help, help, help. But oftentimes they just want to do it on their own, which that's okay, too. But, you know, being that we have a lot of history in doing groups and leading groups, we've learned a lot by our own mistakes in leading groups. So we have a really good plan in place that will actually help alleviate a lot of those mistakes. Yeah.

And we believe that every church can run successful recovery groups, especially in the area of sexual recovery, healing, the betrayal, trauma side. But we do hear from a lot of churches or people in churches that'll say, you know, we tried to launch groups and no one signed up, or we had them for a while and then they disappeared, or it went poorly. And, you know, when we start to ask questions about that, we will find one or more of these mistakes are almost always a part of the equation. Yeah, but when a church takes some, you know, and they're. They're fairly simple strategies about how we launch groups, how we promote them, how we talk about them, it really is doable. And so that's our hope today, our heartbeat, that if you are a pastor or leader or involved in a church or have any say over maybe how your groups are talked about, that this might give you some really helpful framework to think about promoting groups and really seeing them launch in a successful way. And so, great conversation. Here is Rich and I discussing 10 common mistakes that get made when launching recovery groups. Well, Rich, today we want to really dive in and talk about how do we launch groups? Well, and part of that is, by all the ways that we've seen that this can be a struggle. And so let's dive into these 10 common mistakes that we've seen churches and groups make when they're launching recovery groups. And the first one is announcing it as a ministry for those people. What do we mean by that?

Well, I think just the word those people instantly will alienate them from, like, oh, well, there must be something wrong with those people. Instead of just calling it an anger class, a sexual addiction class, whatever it is. It's like when you use those people, it's like, well, one, you're trying to, oh, maybe like, hide what they're talking about. And then when you. When you label it those people, what happens is men and women in the church, they're like, well, what group is it and who is it? For me, because I Don't know what those people are. And then a lot of times it's like, well, I'm not one of those people. Right, that's, that's the bigger piece. It's like, well, I don't fit into that because I'm not one of those people.

Or we don't want to be identified as one of those people.

Yes.

Yeah. I think leaders and, you know, people on stage have a well intentioned heart when they do this. They'll say, you know, so if you're one of those people that struggle with pornography, sexual addiction, anger, you know, whatever class, what kind of recovery group a church is launching, that seems like, hey, we're trying to appeal to you. But they don't realize that that can immediately become isolating and feel like, oh, am I one of those people? I mean, yeah, maybe I've got some unresolved issues here and I would like help, but to have to admit that I'm one of those people can just be a really big hurdle. And then I think to add to that, it, it communicates. There's just a few of you, like, we know this isn't for most of us, but for those of you that struggle, we've started this special, you know, the special group which. That doesn't feel great. If I need that special group versus saying like, hey, we know we are all made by God as sexual beings. We know we all may have encountered struggles in our sexuality. And so we've started some groups so that anyone. And it means just see how different it feels. If I'm saying all of us. Anyone, all of you, you know, a vast majority of us. Well, now it seems like if I need that group, I'm in the majority versus that group. For those people that can feel very isolating and shaming even to admit that I need the group.

Well, that's what I was to say is like the word those could be triggering for a lot of people, like just their family of origin growing up. It's like, not just those, but it's like, well, why aren't you more like them? Yeah, why don't you do that? Because they do that. So it's like that word could instantly say, well, oh, here we go again. It just brings me right back to my childhood trauma. It's like, oh, I don't fit that because I'm one of these people.

Yeah. Oh, you're one of those people. Yeah. That never feels great. The second common mistake that we've seen a lot out there when launching recovery groups is keeping the Groups hidden. What do we mean by that?

That, you know, that is a struggle for a lot of churches. And I often wonder why, when they initially will hide their groups. I don't think it's something we should hide from anymore. I think if you're hiding from it, even if a church doesn't promote it, hey, this group is for this, this. But the way they promote it, it's like, why hide from it? The church has to be a safe place to come forward. And if a church is openly promoting this and they're not hiding it on their website, hey, this is a place we can come. You can come for and it's safe and you can find hope and freedom. A lot of times when they hide it, the only people, then it becomes word of mouth and they're really not helping people. And then it becomes goes back to that conversation of those people. Well, this group is for those people who need help. Well, yeah, it's not just those people. There's, as we know, just the statistics alone. Every group should have tons of group or every church should have tons of groups. And I think keeping it hidden does a detriment for the men and women in the church. Because one, it's hard. Even in our own church, sometimes it's hard to find a group unless you know who the person is that's overseeing those groups. Yeah, it's not on the website. It's not talked about from the pulpit.

So, yeah, so for the majority of people, they don't even know that it exists, honestly. And I know I've told this story on the podcast before, but there have been a number of times when I'm curious how a church is presenting their groups. And I know they have groups. I know the staff is aware of their groups. And I'm on the website and I'm looking through men's ministries and I'm looking through women's ministries and Care Min. Like you're just looking through all the categories. It's like it's nowhere. And you have to be a super sleuth just to find where the groups are. And what I try to encourage pastors or leaders to think about is in that moment, you know, when someone's life blows up, their spouse catches them with something on their phone, they find out that their spouse is having an affair and they need help. If they look at the website and they can't find where to go, the likelihood that they're just going to, out of the blue, call someone you know and say to maybe a church secretary or an admin person they don't know to say, hey, does our church have groups for people that struggle with pornography? Or if, like, that's a really hard question to ask, especially if you don't have confidence of how you're going to be responded to. And so I think a lot of people attend churches that actually have groups, but because they're not aware of it, they would go somewhere else. They would call a counselor first. They would call a ministry like Pure Desire first. And we're certainly glad that we're here. But, you know, I think the heartbeat is if your church has taken the steps to have groups, even if there's only a few of them, to let it be be known, let it be out there. And the other part of it too, I've actually had a pastor say to me, like, oh, we thought the groups were confidential. And I'm like, well, yeah, who's in the groups is confidential, but the fact that you have them isn't confidential. Like, you can talk about having groups without revealing who's in them or who's leading them or anything like that. And in fact, that's what we did at my church. We never announced when and where the groups met because that would, you know, in a smaller community, people could drive by on Thursday nights and be like, oh, look at so and so's car and so and so's there. And I always thought that of so and so. So people didn't know what night of the week or when, but they knew we had groups because we talked about it. And I think that's really essential because otherwise, when people are in crisis, if they don't have confidence that you deal with this and have groups available, they're not going to reach out. And that's the whole point of having groups.

Yeah. I think the other part of that too is like you talked about, like, if I'm calling the church and the, the volunteer or the admin, whoever answers the phone, they didn't even know they had groups. It's like if you're, if the pastor says, yeah, I can have a group and you can meet, he needs to let the staff know that we have groups. Because if I'm calling churches, which we, we find a lot and we hear about a lot, is like, men, women will call a church and they're like, well, they don't offer groups, but it's on our map. Yeah, we've been supporting them and working with their leaders.

We know that somebody knows.

Yeah, but their admin, their. There are people that are calling. Don't know anything about what's going on. So it's like, let's not just keep it to the pastor, the care pastor, the oversight. It's like, hey, let's let the whole church staff know so we can support all of our leaders. And then all those men and women that are coming in, because oftentimes we get a lot of those calls. It's like, well, they. They don't even have groups. I'm like, no, they have a lot of groups.

Yeah.

So it's getting them connected to the right people and then people on staff understanding. It's like, they all need to be aware of that. Yeah.

We just really want to make this a part of the culture of discipleship in a church and not have it be some secret, hidden ministry.

Yeah.

Well, the third common mistake that we see is putting all of the attention on men. Why is this a mistake, Rich?

Well, it's really sad for one. You know, for so long, it's. It's been labeled as a men's issue, and we even hear it now. A lot of times, it's like, well, we're not going to do anything for the women. And it's really sad to see there's a lot of women looking for help that they go to their pastor. And their initial go to is, well, maybe you just need some counseling and read more and pray more. And they leave the church, and now they're betrayed by their church because the church doesn't want to help them. But they have men's groups, but they don't want to take on the women's groups. It's not just a men's issue anymore. Whether you're betrayed or you're the addict or whatever. It's. I mean, we have a lot of churches now that are actually starting women's groups before the men's groups, you know, and then that spurs the men's group. So back in the day, it was. We started with men's groups because that was the core material that we started with. And then shortly, the Betrayal and Beyond came on. But a lot of churches will still start with the men's group, and then they'll push off the women's groups for a while. And some of it has to do with leaders.

Yeah.

But, you know, we've had on our podcast, and even in the events we've done, you've heard Ashley talk about, like, well, you don't necessarily have to have gone through the material to lead it. If there's a woman on staff, a lady on staff that can lead that or. Or like an Ashley type person say, hey, I'll take the group, even though I need the group. Yeah, that's not ideal, but at least you have a gateway to get the women's groups going. And it's there. There should be just as many betrayal and beyond groups in the church as there are men's groups.

Yeah.

I mean, if you think about it should just be the same amount.

Yeah. Well, and we've talked about a lot before that if we announce this as, hey, we know men struggle with this. This is a man's problem, then any woman in the room that has this issue is now experiencing a double shame. The shame of, already I've got a problem that's I don't feel good about. I feel some guilt and shame around it. It's not what I want in my. My life and as my pursuit of Christ and faith. So there's shame there, but then there's also the shame of, and I have a man's problem. I'm not supposed to struggle because I'm a woman. And yet, as the research shows, and around the time of this podcast, we're going to be launching the Barna Report. It's going to show that there's a growing number of women that are using pornography, both in the church and in culture. And it's never really been just a man's problem. There may be statistically a larger percentage of men that can get trapped in this, but there is certainly a significant number of women that need help as well. And so when we announce the groups or start something, and it's okay if both groups aren't ready to start simultaneously, I mean, that can be a challenge for a church, like you said, Rich, to have all the leaders ready and be able to launch simultaneously. But even then, if you can use those moments to cast a vision that we want to help all people, so to say, hey, this month we're going to be launching some groups for men. And we know that, that people struggle with lust and sexual brokenness and pornography. And so we have a men's groups ready to start, and women, we're going to have a group for you as well. And maybe it's going to be another few months or six months, but if in that moment you can use the language to say, we know this is a people problem because we know people are sexual beings. And just because you're a male or a female doesn't exclude you from the possibility of struggle, because you're still people. And so I think having that kind of language does encourage women, like, okay, if I have this problem, my church cares about me. And what we've seen is sometimes women are more willing to be in a group. They're more willing to talk to others. You know, men need. Sometimes we need a little more encouragement to get out of our shell, to be willing to talk about areas that seem like weakness. And so you might find that if you are starting groups for people that want to overcome their struggles and addiction, there may be women more ready to start because community is just kind of their. Their go to. Like, I need other people to talk to. So don't underscore or don't. Don't discount the viability that a woman's group in this area could actually get some traction faster. And then, like you said, might get the men going, oh, well, we better do a group too.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting when the women start groups and they're this little specifically, like, betrayal and beyond. And then the guys haven't started yet, or they don't have a plan. But when. When you see the wives start putting together boundaries and getting healthy and saying, no, I'm not gonna put up with this, then their husbands are like, oh, and the kind of the light turns on. It's like, wow, I have to get my act together.

Yeah.

And so those groups end up being, like, kind of a byproduct of the. The women's groups that have started. And then it's. Now it's like, well, I'm doing this for me, and you need to do something and get started. So we've seen that. I've heard those conversations before and had those conversations with. With pastors is like, this is kind of how it started where it's like, these women were doing great, but they were setting these boundaries and putting these plans in motion. The guys had no clue what to do, and they're saying, well, you need a group, and that's how they started.

So, yeah. Yeah. Those two groups can often go hand in hand and play off one another, and that leads us into the next one. The fourth common mistake is when churches only talk about groups for those who struggle, and we only focus on the struggle side. Why is that a mistake? And maybe why is it so common?

Yeah, I think one. It's. I guess I would say maybe it's easier for the church to help those who are struggling and not as easy to help those who are suffering from the betrayal trauma. I mean, even. Even working with churches, we've. We. Ashley and I worked with one church, and we went through that and we were kind of helping them get set up. And when we mentioned trauma, they like kind of backed up, backed off a little bit. So when you introduce trauma, they're not equipped to deal with trauma or think they're equipped. Or think they're equipped. Yeah. So I think that's the big piece. It's like it's easier to focus on the unwanted sexual behaviors or any, any addictive behavior, alcohol, drugs, all that stuff, because churches have been doing that for years and it's easier to focus on that. But when you start talking about betrayal, Trauma one, leaders aren't trained in it, maybe not understand it. They don't. You know, like you said, it's a. They don't think they know. I think that's the biggest piece is. And then when we only focus those on who struggle, you know, it alienates. Well, it's like, well, we don't have anything for you. But even the struggle part, I, I struggle with that word struggle, focusing on those who struggle. Because if you have a betrayed spouse she named, she may not be struggling with addictive behavior in herself, but she is struggling because she's struggling with her husband just betrayed her.

The hurt and the pain hurt.

So it's like that word struggle is, can really be on both sides.

Yeah.

But it's identifying what part you struggle with.

Yeah, that's a great point. That in a marriage, two people are struggling.

Yeah.

And maybe we fall into some of this because of our culture and the whole self help genre that if you know someone's smoking, we want to help them stop that behavior because it's bad for them. If someone has a drinking problem, like, well, stop drinking, you're destroying your liver and that's not a good way to live life. And if you got an eating problem, let's help you get healthier because of what. It's just what it's doing to you, to your body, to your health and well being. And certainly there's some truth to that when it comes to sexuality and sexual brokenness. But, but sexuality by nature is deeply ingrained in the marriage relationship. And so if one spouse or the other, the husband or the wife is battling with brokenness there, it's impacting the marriage and it's impacting the sexual union that God has intended for them. And so if we only help the one person heal, but like you said, there's two strugglers, we may not be helping. You know, we're only solving half the problem. And what we've seen is very often the one who is Getting help comes back continually into a marriage relationship where there's not traction, there's not the ability to talk about it. So now you've got one person growing and one person stuck that over time just can kind of amplify the problems and actually be a part of driving the struggler or the addictive person back towards behavior just because they're, they're trying to cope with the pain and hurt. Now that's, that's certainly not an excuse or any way to be justified, but we've just seen that happen. Yeah, and, and you can't make someone pursue healing. But churches can provide opportunities to say, hey, we know that, you know, if you're a husband whose wife has been struggling with, with fantasy or chatting with other men, you may have a deep level of hurt and pain and brokenness. And we want to help create a community for you with other men that may have gone through a similar experience or on the women's side, like if your husband's been battling with pornography, we know that's probably causing you to question your value, your worth, your sense of well being. You feel you have no trust, you don't know how to forgive. You need community as well. And we want to help both halves of that marriage healing. And when that happens, you know, that's what's, I think, exciting for us. At Pure Desire, we get to watch those couples get momentum and, and they say it transformed our whole marriage versus just stopping the bad behavior. So there's, there's so much to be gained there. And I think, thankfully we're seeing churches start to, to see this and, and in other areas, the reality of pain and trauma from our past driving current behaviors is becoming, I think, more widely seen and accepted within churches. And we see that's, that's not in any way anti biblical, that this is really a message of scripture that if, if voices from our past pain and trauma have created false messages or core beliefs about who we are, we may be continuing to operate in those, in sinful patterns. And so we can't just stop the behavior. We have to address the whole system. And that's, I just think we're growing in that. But still, far too many churches think, well, let's just stop the bad behavior and everything will be okay. And yet there's a marriage there that may be in shreds.

Well, they put a band aid on it and hope the band aid will stick. And then usually what happens is it just falls apart, falls off, and they keep trying to bandage it over and over and over again, but they don't get to the root, and they're just trying to surface, heal it, and it doesn't work.

Yeah, yeah, good word. Get to the root.

Yeah.

Well, our fifth common mistake that we see a lot in recovery groups is this microwave approach to change. What is the microwave approach to change?

It's funny, I was reading that and, wow, if I had the microwave approach to change, I would have been healed 27 and a half years ago. Yeah, I mean, it literally would have been. It's like, oh, I can. I can put myself in microwave for five minutes and I can be done with addiction and betrayal and all this stuff and not have to worry about it so many times. I can't. I can't even put a number on it because it happens just about either daily on a phone call or an email multiple times. It's like, is it really a 2 to 5 year process? Is group really 10 months? Does it really take 2 hours every week and to walk them through that process? It's like we're so used to getting everything we want right now and getting it quick and being done with it. You know, that almost like the fast food approach. Oh, I can drive up to a window, get what I want to eat, be done in 20 minutes. They think they oftentimes will look at recovery like that. It's like, oh, I can. I can beat this in. In six weeks. Yeah, I don't know anybody that's beat it in six weeks. Now, what I would say God can take anything from anybody at any given time. And I, and I do believe that, but just because he takes it from you doesn't mean he doesn't want you to work through the process. And I think that's. That's a key thing that I tell people all the time. I said, you know, my story, and I've said this before on podcasts. It's like, I always use, like, Veggie Tales as the. The piece because my kids watch Veggie Tales when I was a kid or when they were kids, and, you know, Shadrach, Meshach, and Bennett will go. They get thrown into the furnace. And I always talk about how God put me in the furnace and he could have easily take me out, took, you know, but he left me in there so I can sit and get some season and understand and refine. And then it's like, okay, I think you're ready. Well, I'm in 28 years of PD now in. In longevity. And it's like the microwave approach doesn't work. And we see it not work because guys will try to do what they can so fast. And then they like, oh, they're in group for three, four months, and they're like, oh, man, I'm doing really good. I think I'm in a good spot. My marriage is great. I don't need group anymore. And then two, three months, a year later, they come back, their wife has left them, they've lost their job. Now they need to get back. And they said, I wish I would have taken the time to do it up front, you know, And I think we really have to, when we're talking as leaders, even here at PD or in the church, if you're overseeing groups, is to really reiterate that this isn't, you know, a quick fix. I spent my half my life in addiction. I'm not gonna beat it in six weeks. Yeah, it's gonna take some time.

Yeah. Well, I think some of this is rooted in the just stop it or just try harder approach to change. And sometimes we think this. That this is a sin issue. It's a moral problem. Women or men don't realize how bad it is, and so we need to tell them how bad it is and that God hates it and wants them to live pure and invite them to change, and then they'll do it. And the truth is, the vast majority of women and men that we've seen come to us for help or be in group, know and believe how wrong it is, want desperately to change, but are saying, why can't I seem to stop or I'll make some progress? And then I'm right back in. Like, what is going on? And. And we're helping them take a healing journey and helping churches start groups for this healing journey of understanding what. What's driving the behavior? Where is it coming from? What are the patterns that have been established in my brain and in my ways of thinking that, like you said, may have been there for decades? And we talk about, like, healing and changing the brain, that the brain is a body part, just like an arm or a leg, that, you know, if. If my arm is broken and you set it in a cast, that's not the end of the story. Like, there's a healing process my arm goes through. And unfortunately, we can't just, like, cast the brain and wait for it to be better. Like, that is a proactive process. And so I think where churches or groups might fall into this is they say, well, you know, we dealt with it at our men's weekend or our women's retreat. We told people to be a person of integrity and to honor the Lord and if you struggle with it, that you should talk to someone, it's like, well, that may have started the conversation, but that is rarely going to be enough on its own to get someone walking in freedom in the long haul. And I have found that just throwing it out there like, so if you need help, talk to someone. The reality is that almost nobody does like that. That does not create enough safety or parameters or like tangible next steps that I'm just going to go to. If I've not addressed this part of my life, it's unlikely that I'm going to go to another person, just say, hey, by the way, here's all this garbage in my life for decades and decades. Because that's a hard thing to do. But if we actually can create a structure around that in groups and a process and people see that it's, it's significant, it's intentional, it's been well thought out. Like now that offer like, hey, we want you to talk to someone and we've got groups that we're starting. We have people that have been trained in this that are here to help you. Well, well, that's a different way of throwing it out there. Or one other way I've heard is people say like, oh well, you know, a whole bunch of our men went through the Conquer series five years ago. It's like, well that was great, I'm sure, five years ago, but do you have any idea how those men are doing now?

Yeah.

And what about all the men that weren't in that or that have started coming to your church since then? Like it's, it's not a one and done thing that all those moments are important, but it's more the question of what are we doing in an ongoing way to continue to support someone's healing journey. Because it's going to take time for the brain to change. It's going to take time for that relationship to heal. It's going to take time for those old patterns when someone is, you know, kind of the classic halt when they're hungry, alone, feeling lazy and tired and They've got this 20 year pattern that when I'm feeling this way, what I do is I go on my phone or my tablet and I start going on social media and I'm going too far. Like that pattern is going to be something that crops back up for quite a long time. And just because they did conquer or had that great weekend doesn't mean they're equipped to Navigate that and make long term change for years and decades to come. So we just need to look that change is slow. Change takes time. It takes a process in a community and churches, I would say this, you know, churches have all the tools they need for that very experience.

Yeah.

But if our attitude is, well, we did that one thing that one time and I'm sure people know what to do. Actually, they don't. And people are really continuing to struggle.

What really comes down to when they look at that onion, the layers of the onion, it's like, well, we could do conquer series or do the initial or a men's breakfast. It's like, well, we just pulled back the first layer. So guy guys who struggle 20, 30, 40, 50 years and beyond, it's like you got a lot of layers. If I barely pulled back the first layer in a men's breakfast, I haven't even thought about breaking isolation or denial or anything. It's like, oh, I, there's a potential issue here. So it's like you could pull off the layer. Well, that's just the first start. And so many people are like, oh, that first layer, I'm good. And again, they haven't even got to the core root of what's going on yet. So they have no idea. Yeah.

Yeah. I can't tell you how many times in my story I had someone pray for me because that's how I'd been taught. I would be healed. Like, pray for me, and I'd walk away like, okay, maybe this was the time. But without any change to those patterns or the ways I was doing life, it would come back and then I'd feel even more ashamed. Like, man, I keep being prayed for and I'm not healed or free. There must be something wrong with me or with my faith. And that's, that's a difficult place to be. And I think it speaks to the reality that this is a journey and there, there might be difficult seasons even amongst growth and freedom and change. And so that leads to the sixth mistake, Rich. And that is when we only tell happy stories. Why is it a mistake to only tell happy stories? And what do we mean by that?

Yeah, you know what's interesting? I've never really thought about this question like this. I'll kind of put it into more like the, the story of Jesus a little bit. We all understand, you know, Jesus died on the cross for us. Right. And died for our sins. But do we really know the whole story? I don't know if you're like me, seeing a passion of Christ when he was getting whipped and beat in the square. It's hard if you're like me. I'm sitting there in all these emotions and tears, anger, frustration. That's not a happy story right there. But knowing what happened on the end of that, where he gave his life for us, and it's like for the.

Joy set before him, endured the cross.

Yeah. And I think that's such a powerful thing. It's like, well, he just didn't die. He took all those stripes were for me, for everything I've ever done. That's what. And so I think if we can use our story. And I do that when I share my story with. Especially with guys that are potentially going to prison or they're facing reporting issues and all that stuff, it's like, you know, I don't always just stick with, oh, hey, this is where I'm at now. It's like, no, I start with the stuff that's not very fun to talk about. Even though my story was so long ago, it's still relevant today when. When a guy calls me facing charges, because then I instantly I connect with a guy where he thought nobody understands. So I have a conversation with them and I'll walk through and share my story. And those aren't happy stories, but it's. Every time I share it, it's healing for me. But then the hope is on the flip side of that. It's like, this is what I did. This is what I've done to get to where I'm at. And then now look at my relationship with my brother and my brother's family and where. How far I've come. That's the.

A lot of hard things.

Yeah. And if you're not willing to walk through that process and just focus on the happy stuff, then it's not going to work. It's like the Stocksdale paradox where you. You've. If, you know, I'm sure a lot of you have been around a long time. We talked about that pure desire for a long time. You know, if you just focus on the good stuff, that scale becomes unbalanced. You always have to remember where you come from, the reality and the reality to keep it in balance. Because you. If you focus on the bad stuff, then you're not going to heal. You're just going to be stuck. And if you only focus on the positive stuff, then you. You almost remove yourself from the reality, like you said of what happened in your life. Oh, I'm never going to think about that. I hear about this all the time from guys, I don't want to go back. I don't have any trauma. I don't have any trauma. That's a big one. But when you're able to, like, keep those in balance, your story is so much more powerful.

Yeah. Yeah. For those that may not be familiar, the stock the Stockdale Paradox, is facing the full, harsh reality, truth of your reality and keeping a vision for what can happen and what change could look like.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think in this area, I call it a little bit the facing the Giant syndrome. And we mentioned that movie this morning at our staff prayer time, and there are some great lines in there. But the pinnacle of the movie, the guy, like, falls on his knees and he surrenders it all to the Lord in this big moment. And then, like in the rest of the movie, his team wins the championship and his wife is happy with him, and they get pregnant and he gets a new truck, and it's like, whoa. They all lived happily ever after. And it's fun in a movie, but it's often not real life.

Yeah.

And I think sometimes in our effort as churches to show that, like, God heals and God saves and God redeems, we want to tell stories that go like that, because some of them do. It's like, God changed my life, he's changed my marriage, and now we're all happy and our kids are great and our future secure. And hopefully that's true. But sometimes even in those stories, you find out, like, oh, we were ignoring all the messy parts. But what it can leave people feeling like is if I start to face my struggles with pornography or addiction and my marriage doesn't make it, or things get worse or it blows up, maybe it's because I don't have enough faith, or maybe God doesn't love me, or maybe there's something wrong with how I'm doing it. When the reality is, as you've brought up, there's painful stuff that comes as a consequence of our behaviors. There may be a reality that relationships around us, or in particular, marriage, may not be able to handle the trauma of what it's caused. And whether it doesn't make it or it just takes it a long, long time to heal, that can be part of the process. And we shouldn't look at that as like, oh, well, you're doing something wrong. That may just be the incredible growth that God is bringing through some really, really hard circumstances. That, in my mind, is just as beautiful as the happily ever after story. It doesn't feel as good, but it's like, wow, that's amazing to hear someone talk about their struggle and still say, and yet I know God is with me.

Yeah.

And God has never left me. And I'm learning more about his character. And I mean, I think that's inspiring to me because I'm like, oh, then if I'm in a hard situation and my story doesn't feel like happily ever after, I can remember. But God is for me. He's with me. I'm not alone. And I think those struggles and obviously as churches, we have to think through. Like, you don't want to have people up front that just are bleeding on everybody. Like, there needs to be enough of the story that there's progress, that someone can tell it well and not just in an emotionally driven way. But don't try to hide from the messy stuff, because that's often what will minister most to other people.

Yeah. Because you see, if you just, if you're just telling all the happy ending stories you don't have, the, the people don't see how God was able to work in each area in your story. In the painful moments where he did pull you through this or he did, he did. Maybe somebody has cancer and then God miraculously just took it from them. You know, if you say, hey, I don't have any cancer, but you didn't share the whole battle before that, you know, it's like, okay, but, you know, my faith is what got me through. And I've said this before so many times. It's like when I was, when I was originally sentenced in 97 and then going through court order treatment. Court order treatment was, was good, but if I was just in court order treatment, it wouldn't have been enough. Yeah. There was 14 of us in this court order treatment, and I think probably 85, 90% guys reoffended. And two. The two. Two or three guys that didn't reoffend were in groups at East Hill with me.

Yeah.

And that's a pretty remarkable thing. So this is in my story. It's like the consequences like you talked about. But God showed up in the consequences because I made a choice to do what was right and follow God, get into a faith based program along with, with the court order stuff. And then here I am 28 years later sitting here doing a podcast.

Because you've faced a lot of hard stuff.

Yeah.

Well, thanks, Rich. The seventh mistake that we commonly see in recovery groups being launched is settling for accountability groups. What would we mean for that? And why would we say it's Settling for an accountability group.

I think it's really easy to put a label just on, oh, I'm an accountability group. Well, what are you being accountable for? I've been to a lot of quote groups that were like, oh, hey, we're just an accountability group that sometimes it's not all of them, but it's like not having a lot of real conversations. It's more of, sometimes it's more of just a get together. I don't say a glorified Bible study because I don't want that to come across wrong. But it's like when I go to an accountability group or when you go to accountability group, why are you going to that group? Are you going. Because you're actually struggling with something and you need to say, hey, I'm struggling with this. Can you pray for me? Because if I go to a group and I walk in the door and I'm sharing and I say, yeah, this is an area I'm struggling with. Well, Nick, you're going to say, okay, what's your plan? So that's an accountability group and that's what our groups are. But if you, if you walk into a quote accountability group, but there's no structure, there's no. They just label it an accountability group, you're probably not going to get a lot out of it. Not to say you won't, but most of them don't because, well, one I gotta identify what am I even being accountable to? And if there's no structure and there's no parameters put up front, then I'm not gonna go into accountability group and share my stuff if none of the other guys are gonna be sharing what I'm struggling with.

Yeah, yeah. I think the truth is accountability groups tend to be very behavior focused and they can become performance driven because it's all about, are you doing the bad thing you're not trying to do? Yep. And I'm being accountable to other women or other men to not do the bad thing I'm committed not to doing. And if I do, I tell them or they ask me. And the accountability is a part of recovery. But if that's all we do, I think most listeners can see that's pretty surface level. That's not getting into the deeper why questions. The where is it coming from? Where did it start? What might be a part of this that I haven't ever seen before? It's just all stop the bad behavior and that again, that is a piece of recovery. But I just find typically it doesn't produce change. It Just produces a lot of trying harder and then the guilt of man. Now people know that I struggle and I'm still struggling. And now I have to go and tell them that. And they pray for me. And I'm grateful for accountability. But we have just seen over and over that accountability alone is rarely enough to help someone stop maybe a decades long behavior that's become an ingrained pattern in their way of thinking and their way of doing life. And so it's, it's kind of like just having one tool. You know, if all I have to build my house with is a hammer, it's going to be a pretty sad house because there's a lot of pieces I'm going to be missing. When it comes to nails, I mean it comes to driving screws and cutting boards and measuring things like, well, I got a hammer.

Yeah.

And I think some churches, that's what they know is like I got the hammer of accountability. And so what, we just hammer on accountability like, well, be accountable, be accountable, be accountable.

Yeah.

And yet in long term change, we need to go much deeper and have a, a much more robust understanding of the behavior and how change happens. So the eighth common mistake that we see, and it's kind of related to this, but it's unpacking it a little more is where we see a lack of any clear structure or curriculum. Why could this be a problem?

Well, I'll start with online groups because this is a great segue just into groups in general. For our online group leaders, the requirement is they go through group leader training, one that they've been through the group process. So when we talk about structure and curriculum, we'll talk about structure first. In Seven Pillars, Betrayal Beyond Unravel, basically all of our material, there's group guidelines, Memo of understanding, covenant to 10 best practices. All these things that Pure Desire has put together over the years now are on this group leader training where we have our online group leaders. That's a requirement for them to lead online groups. And why do we have them do that? It was one is we want every group to run the same way. There's structure, there's these guidelines they're walking through. It helps them to lead their curriculum the way it needs to be led. Because one, we're talking about it in our trainings, even on the podcast we talk about all this material and we walk through this. We've done a few podcasts on how to lead a seven Pillars group, how to do a BNB group and all that stuff. So I think when you deviate from that structure of group, it's going to affect everything on how you go through the material. If you can't even make it through, check in and do it the way it should be. It's going to affect the rest of the group. And the other part we see a lot of, which really affects us a lot of time we have so many leaders. Even though we talk about it, we teach them how to do it, they'll go. They'll open up seven pillars and they'll go right to pillar one. They miss all the intro, they miss all the tools. They miss the recovery action plan, which I would say that's the biggest one, because when a wife is in betrayal and beyond, and they're like, hey, when are you working on your recovery action plan? It's like, oh, my leader didn't talk about it. Well, it's in the introduction. So we still have. Sometimes leaders will just go right to pillar one. So they're. They're one. They're missing all the structure pieces, which affects how they go through their curriculum. And we can't. I can't hammer that enough. We talk about that often in our online groups. Leader meeting. We talk about that in our membership meetings. Men's only, women's only. You got to have structure. And you can see when churches don't follow a structure in groups where they have open groups, men and women coming into groups, there's no structure. It creates this unsafe environment where people don't feel like, well, I don't want to come in. They're halfway through, but they don't have an on ramp. And we see that a lot.

And. Yep. And we'll put the best practices in the show notes, because I think that's valuable that people see some of the things that we've recommended and what makes for a healthy group. But we do hear it when someone's like, man, I've been in group for three years and it's not changing me. It's not working. And we'll ask some questions about the group, and we find out that they're not really walking through curriculum. They're just having conversation. The group can get hijacked by anyone's agenda or someone has a big need. And so they're like, well, that week we just prayed for this guy. And then the next week, half of them weren't there, so we didn't talk about anything. And, you know, they'll go several months and haven't actually worked through developing, you know, healthy habits, going through curriculum that helps them understand why they're doing what they don't want to do and how to process that pain. It'd be a little bit like if I had, you know, horrible leg trauma from a car accident and I'm going to physical therapy. But all we do at physical therapy is meet together and talk about the pain, how I'm managing it, how I'm doing. Like, I might appreciate that support, but at some point I'm going to say, I need you to teach me how to walk again. Like, I need you to show me some exercises and, and tell me what to do and not do, like, actually walk me through what does change look like. Because just talking about my, my pain and my hurt and rehashing it again and again. And then, by the way, in the kind of groups we're talking about, typically we re injure ourselves if we relapse, like, and we're just kind of rehashing all the same stuff versus having a plan to say, here's where we're at, here's where we're going to go, and here are the steps along the way. You know, the seven pillars of freedom, the chapters of unraveled, the work that someone does in an authentically you group, or living free. Like, those are steps taking them towards freedom. And that's a lot different than just talking about our pain for another week.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, Rich, just a couple of more here. The ninth common mistake we see is when someone is trying to be or feels like they need to be the expert on everything. Talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, that's funny. Even, even just here in Pure Desire, on podcasts or even in emails, if somebody emails us in and, and say, Nick, they might email you. Or maybe they email somebody else in different department, say, hey, contact Rich. He's an expert in groups. What's funny about that is I'm not an expert. The only thing I'm an expert at is my own story and owning my story.

A lot of groups experience, but it's.

It's weird. It's like in 28 years, I've done a lot of groups. I've been through the process, but the best way I can lead is out of my own story and own vulnerability. That's what I'm an expert in and that's what I can control because I can easily just being around for so long. And I know there's a lot of men and women that have been leading groups for a long time too, that they may have this, the same kind of just knowledge. And you know, when you add all the trainings and stuff we've done or all that stuff, the exterior stuff. It's like, I even have this conversation with Tyler sometimes. You know, when I do a check in with Tyler, it's like, I've been around so long, I use a lot of the counseling things in groups sometimes, and not knowing it. And I'm not a counselor, I'm just the groups guy. But sometimes that can come across as, like, giving advice. And I've been around a long time and I try not to give advice, but I can catch myself when I do. Because when you start doing that, then it really makes you. It's like, well, people start to question. It's like, well, I don't need that, or, what makes you an expert? I've even had guys ask me, well, what makes you an expert? And I'm like, I'm not an expert. I own my story. And that's. I'm an expert of my own story. And that's how I lead. Out of vulnerability. I don't think that's. That's a hard thing to replace. I mean, I think it's cool, you know, to have somebody say, hey, Rich is our expert guy in this area? Or whatever. But it's like, at its core, it's like, I'm only an expert because I live this out in my story, and that's how I use my expertise in my story. So I think for men and women listening, it's like, don't try to be an expert on pure desire or anything you're doing. It's like your story will make you enough.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The way I see this playing out in some churches is they feel like they need to be the expert. And this area of sexuality is typically not something pastors and leaders have been trained in. And they. They sense that, like, well, this should be handled by the. Like, go see a counselor or go somewhere else where the experts can help you. And the truth is, the church is equipped to help well because it's having safe, structured community and groups and helping people experience the love of Christ in the places of their pain. A church, with our guidance and other groups do this well, too, really can take some steps into this, even if they don't feel like they understand all of it. And then when stuff maybe does get messy or a story comes up, there are extreme stories out there, and we've all probably heard them then in those situations. That's where you have support and counselors and others that can help in those situations. But by and large, this is not an area where you've got to have all the answers for all the questions we've said, like if. If you can open up a room and a workbook, you could have groups at your church because the workbook will walk you through the process. And groups just need a space to meet and someone to talk. Hey, we're doing these groups. And that's an oversimplification, I'm sure, but just an encouragement to say, just because you don't understand everything to do with sexual addiction, that doesn't mean you should hold off and never run groups. Because it really is about people getting together in community and walking through a process of healing and change. And that's what we're here to help with.

Yeah.

Well, number 10, rich. And the last one, the common mistake we see is having inadequate support for leaders. Talk about that a little bit.

Yeah. In the local church we see that quite often. And it really boils down to the care pastor, just the staff, they just don't have the bandwidth. Like you just said, it's like, hey, if you can open the door, turn the light on, we'll give you a room and you're good to go. So that's where a lot of churches will fail. Not just peer desire groups, but just their, their groups in general. Because it's like, oh, we have volunteers. As long as we don't hear any complaints and they're quiet, everything must be going good. So, yeah, sometimes it's at. The people in their, in the, in those churches are like, why don't get any support? One they don't support could be like, you know, maybe like what we did at East Hill, what they do is like every quarter we'd get all the guys together, members and leaders, and we do a big dinner thing and then. And sharing a story. Then we. We would invite people to come in and share. Like, we invited you, Nick, and invite Harry. And we just invited people to come in and then. And then with leaders, what we've done at East Hill is like before those groups, every week, the leaders, we had all the groups on the same night. But not every church is going to do that. But we had a lot of groups. But every, every week before group that, we always did a leader kind of meeting, really kind of support. Hey, how's it going in group? Is there any issues in your group? And we did that just because we had the bandwidth of enough leaders in our core team at the church. I think the biggest support churches can do is literally talking about it from the pulpit. And because when you talk about it from there. You were showing that we support these groups 100%. And then, you know, we go back to what we talked about earlier, like hiding groups, not talking about it. Because if I'm up from the pulpit and I'm speaking about groups, I am showing support. It's like, hey, we have this group for women on Thursday nights, we have this group on Tuesday nights. And if here's your leaders to connect with and you know, to being able, that that shows that alone will give those leaders more support than anything else. Because it's like, oh, my pastor is actually talking about this.

Yeah. When a. When a group leader hears it announced, it's like, oh, they care. We're supported.

Yep.

And I think a truth here is that pastors rarely lead the groups and often that's. It's good that they don't. We don't want this to be a pastor or staff driven program. It will typically be driven by people who are volunteers and it's changed their life and so they want to be a part of leading groups. But as a pastor or staff member, if you're in that position, you have incredible ability to come alongside and just say, how are things going? And maybe it's a once a month check in to just say, how's your group going? How are you doing? Any support you need? How can we be praying for you? Like, just to know I'm not alone. Because a group leader does often walk through really tough stuff with women or men in their group and have someone at a staff level that's saying, we care, how can we support? You could make a world of difference. And maybe you don't feel like you have the bandwidth or the expertise. That's part of why we do have a church membership program here at Pure Desire that creates a lot of opportunities and tools and coaching sessions. Q and A times with our team that we would love to have your church explore. Because you might feel like, well, I'm not the expert, but I sure want to make sure my leaders have access to the expertise of pure desire. And church membership is a great way to do that. But again, don't devalue how important it could be just for you as a leader in your church to say to those volunteers, like, man, we believe in you. Thank you so much for leading. We see you. How can we help? And just that support could help those leaders continue to lead season after season versus doing it once and feeling like, well, I got no support from my church. No one seemed to care. It was kind of a challenging situation. I just stopped leading because we do hear that far too often. And just a little bit of support from a church could make the world of difference in that area.

Yeah.

Well, Rich, this has been so good. It is our heartbeat to see every church running safe, effective, healthy recovery groups to help men and women heal and church. You can do this. If you're a pastor, a leader, an elder in any capacity in a church, you can do this. Your church can do this, and we can help. Rich, if someone wants more information about starting groups or needs support from us, how could they get started? Who should they reach out to?

I would just go to groupsouredesire.org and then our great assistant Sarah will if it's an online group, she's going to send it to our online team. And if it's a church team, she'll send it to the online team or she may even respond to you in that email.

Awesome. So it's groups with an S groupsuredesire.org and I'm sure that'll be in the show notes as well. Well, Rich, appreciate having you on the podcast. Thanks for being here.

All right, thank you.

And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe or share it with somebody and write us a review. It helps other people find the podcast. And if you want more information on our groups, resources or counseling, go to PureDesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.