375 - Facing Our Trauma Story

Foreign.

Hello there, good listener. You are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, and I'm your host, Nick Stumbo. This is your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 375, and here joining me is my guest co host, Mr. Michael Maxwell. I'm our operations guru here at Pure Desire. Mike, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Nick. Or I should say, welcome back. You've been on before, but not on.

This side of the table.

Yeah. You've usually been a guest, and we've interviewed you on a number of topics that our listeners could find if they wanted to scroll back through the other episodes. How many do you think you've been on? 4 or 5. More than that.

Maybe somewhere around there. Yeah.

Okay.

Over the years, I think I get one a year.

That's our. That's our quota. That's all we can handle.

Yeah.

Well, today we did get a privilege to interview a guest, a real friend of the ministry, someone whose life has been impacted by it. Our listeners are going to get to meet Louis Casimir and just have a really. We had a really powerful conversation today with him about some of his trauma story.

Yeah, it's so funny. I. I have to tell you this. I saw the title of this trauma story and all, like, for the last three days, the only thing I could think of as that Zach Williams song recovery Story. So I wasn't sure if you were gonna break into some trauma song or what the case would be.

My list of trauma songs is pretty small. So. Yeah, I think one of the good outcomes of this episode is to acknowledge that we all have a trauma story. We all have pieces of our past that are painful, messy, uniquely personal, and likely there's a piece of it that we've wanted to avoid to some degree, and that's very much Louis experience and what he helps us unpack today. Just what did God do in his life to lead him into facing that? And what are the beautiful outcomes that have happened as a result of it?

Yeah. As you've said, I think everybody has a piece that they just want to hold back on, and I can relate to that, and I'm sure our listeners will, too.

Yeah.

Well, and you will hear that Louis story has a unique connection to one of our newest workbooks, the Compassionate Warrior. So listen for that a little later in the episode. And we really hope that you enjoy hearing from Louie as much as we did having the conversation. And so here is our discussion with Louie Kasimir on facing Our trauma story. Louie, thanks so much for joining today and for coming in person. Good to see you.

Oh, it's great to be here.

Nice hat, too.

I forgot to get a haircut, so my wife said to wear a hat.

Our wives are wise, wise women.

Yep.

Louie, you're connected to Pure Desire in many ways. You've walked through counseling, you've done group, you lead groups, you're a donor. And on Team 58, you've shared your story with prisoners. Did I miss anything about your connections with Pure Desire?

No, that about sums it up. And that's enough. Over the last few years.

Yeah, I know God's been doing a work in your life, and today we want to unpack some of your healing journey and focus specifically on how you were led to face your trauma story, and particularly our childhood trauma. But before we get into all of that, tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself, kids, career, marriage. Who is Louie Kasimir?

Okay, so I'm just an ordinary guy. Been married 42 years to Lori. We were high school sweethearts. And so, you know, we got married young. Four married adult kids.

All right.

With four great in laws. I don't call them that. They're. They're my kids. They're my kids. Nine grandkids.

Wow.

So it's busy. And all the. All but seven, all but two of the grandkids are close by. So I really feel like at this time of my life, it's part of my responsibility is to pour into my grandkids, and so I do that. I'm a retired dairy farmer. I milked cows for 42 years. And a year and a half ago, we sold all the cows, kept the land, and realized what life was like not having to have a dairy that ran 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So in the past, I was a youth pastor for six years and I resigned that position when it became too much. This was about 25 years ago. And then ended up being on the founding team for Camp Attitude. And my daughter is now the. The director there. And that camp is just wrapping up today, actually.

What is Camp Attitude?

It's a camp for kids with special needs for their families. So if a family has a child with special needs, they get to go for a week free to this camp. And we partner high school students one on one with, with the kid, and everybody goes through a life changing experience.

Wow, that's fantastic.

It's really cool.

Yeah.

So, well, with four adult kids and four married into the family and nine grandkids, I bet Christmas morning is very noisy and expensive at your house.

Yeah, we usually do Christmas Eve.

Okay.

Because of Christmas morning, the is where all the other the kids go. But it is a packed house. In fact, we're all getting together next Wednesday. All 19 of us are going to be together in one house at the lake, on the boat. So it's going to be. Going to be fun.

Yeah. Awesome.

Louis, I heard that at the beginning of your story, you were pretty resistant to counseling. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about how you overcame that resistance?

Well, my healing began in 2016 when I realized that the binge purge cycle was just not going away. And no matter how hard I tried, it just wouldn't leave. I wasn't resistant to counseling or therapy. I just refused to join a group. And I didn't trust men. I didn't trust any man. So I decided to go through. After reading the book Pure Desire, I bought the Seven Pillars, and I went through seven Pillars by myself, cover to cover, answered every question in detail, as if I was in a group. And I was determined to not have to join a group. So.

Can I ask a question? How'd you get that first Pure Desire book?

Laurie found it online somehow. And that's when I was. That was the first book that ever made sense to me as to don't pray harder. Don't stay harder. There's other reasons that you've got the struggle in your life. And so it was a breath of fresh air when I got that book. And at the end of the book, it says, they're here in Gresham, Oregon. I'm going, wow, they're close by. So then I went to the website, and that's actually when I found the Conquer series and went through Conquer series a couple times, Led once, and went through it by myself once, obviously, because I didn't need a group. And. But eventually, I couldn't get the trust from Lori. She just wouldn't trust me. And so about five years ago, I finally said to her, look, whatever I need to do to get you to trust me, I'll do it. And she just smiled. And in two weeks, I was taking the evaluations for marriage therapy. And part of the marriage therapy was I had to join a group. So that's how I got involved with the group.

Yeah.

So I'm curious, kind of going off script here a little bit, but for those people listening, why wasn't she able to trust you?

Because I was a habitual liar, and that's hard for me to even say. I would Exaggerate stories. So Laurie never really knew what the truth was. And I was sober. I didn't know how to tell her that I had found sobriety, even though I was still white knuckling it. And I'm going, why can't you trust me? And she just. She couldn't. She knew that there was. She sensed there was a lot more to the story than she was getting.

Yeah.

So that's. She prodded, and it was the Holy Spirit that was. She. She was unrelenting. And she started. She started therapy with Diane before we started marriage therapy.

Yeah. So it seems like I've seen in groups a lot of times these are God's daughters, and he, through his Holy Spirit, gives them just a sense that something is not right.

Right. Yeah.

Well, I'm glad it got you started, Louis. And that there was that requirement of group, and in some ways, that mimics some of my story. You know, I read the book Pure Desire in college, which means that, you know, when I look at the publishing date, it must have been within the first year or two that that book came out 25 years ago. And I thought it was a great book. Like you said, it. It connected. It made sense. And I'm like, okay, now I've got the tools, and I'm about to get married. This can be no problem. But there was all this stuff about, like, group and engaging with other men. I was like, yeah, I mean, I got good friends, and I had friends that I was honest with, my struggle with, but. But hadn't really taken any step towards group and figured, I'm going to be fine, and I wasn't. Went into 10 years of trying to do it on my own, unsuccessfully. And then when my wife and I started the couples counseling, and Dr. Ted says, you've got to do a weekly group. I. I tried to talk my way out of it. Like, can't I just come meet with you? I'll do all the work. I'll do all the assignments. Like, I don't have time for more group, is what I told him, and, you know, his encouragement that. That this group would be unlike anything I was doing or had done, and that without it, the likelihood of success was very, very limited. It was like, you know, and I was in that place, too, with my wife of saying, I have to do whatever it takes to save this marriage and re. Restore her trust, because we're headed towards destruction if I don't. And I knew that if. And my wife was in the room when Ted made these suggestions. So it's like, well, I've either got to do group and show that I mean it when I'm saying I'll do anything, or she's not going to think I'm sincere. And so I think my encouragement to listeners out of your story and mine and many others, like, no matter what gets you into group, you can go in dragging your feet, kicking and screaming, but if you're willing to commit and give it a try, often that's enough to get that ball rolling and help you see that there is a level of community that we haven't experienced before if we'll give it a chance.

Yeah. I can honestly tell the guys that are in my groups when they start and they're. They're looking around corners, making sure nobody's listening to their conversations. You know, it's. This is a scary step for guys, and I can look them in the eye and say, I know what you're going through. I didn't want to be here either.

Yeah. My first group, I drove all the way across town to another church.

Yep. And snuck in the back door.

I didn't want anyone to see me. And put two and two together.

That's right.

Yeah.

Well, Louie, I know a pivotal moment in your journey with Dr. Ted Roberts was his invitation to begin revisiting some of your trauma, particularly from childhood and early teen years. Can you tell us a little bit about what that experience was like and how you felt about that?

Well, just meeting Dr. Ted for the first time was. Was a shock. I had gone through the Conquer series by myself. I led two. One or two groups. And when we had our evaluation read back to us, we didn't know who our therapists were going to be. And so we hook up to the Zoom. This was during 2020 when Covid was going on and we're all learning Zoom, and Dr. Ted pops up on the screen. And I knew then that there was a much bigger plan and falling into place than I anticipated. And because you had seen him on the Conker series, he was like an actor God to me. And I didn't feel worthy to even be in the same room with him.

I felt the same because I'd seen the Conquer series before I ever met him as well.

Yeah. And so when he popped up on the screen, I was. I was shell shocked. And of course, Laurie didn't think anything of it. She didn't watch. She's never seen the Conquer series. But he mentioned, and he just kind of glossed over it, that I had to take a polygraph. And he. He Says today that I just turned all sheets of green. And he said, I knew when I said that that you had some trauma that you hadn't dealt with. And then when he told me as we were going through the evaluations, you've got some deep trauma in your past. And I did, but I wasn't going to tell anybody about it. And so I did what everybody does when they're scared and backed into a corner. I came out swinging. And you don't know what you're talking about. The stupid test doesn't mean anything. You know, trying to just make it go away like I had done for 42 years and wanted it to go away. And so that was the pivotal moment for me when I had to decide, am I going to do this or not? Am I going to follow through on my word to Laurie that I'll do everything I can to get you to trust me? Or was I going to say, this is too much. I'm not doing this, and opt out? And that was an option for me, but I would opt out without Lori. And she made it perfectly clear that we couldn't continue the way we were.

Yeah, I think for all of us, there are parts of our story or our past that we're just like. It's messy. It's complicated. We probably know it's there. We're aware that it was something that impacted us. But I think especially men can move forward and want to disengage from that. Be like, okay, that's the past, or, that was a different part of my life. Now I'm this. And I've described my counseling experience as, like, connecting the dots. I knew pieces of my life were there, but I had never connected, even in a small way, that that might be a significant factor in my present behaviors. And the things I was using to numb out, to avoid pain, to deal with stress and anxiety, like, it was all connected to negative messages from some of these childhood traumas that I had just. And I think sometimes our church upbringing can teach us, well, the past is in the past. You know, forgetting what is behind, straining towards what is ahead. Those things don't matter. And to find out, like, oh, those things do matter, because there are messages that started in some of those moments of shame, of worthlessness, of not being good enough, not measuring up, that have just been, like, getting passed forward year after year after year in my life. And until they were dealt with, they were just going to keep getting passed forward to the next year and the next year and the next year. And it's like, that willingness to decide, like, okay, enough is enough, like, it's there. And even if at the inception, we don't see, like, how could this help me? And that's what. That was my attitude, like, how could this do. How could it do any good to go back to that painful stuff? Like, just leave it alone. But to have someone say, if you'll trust me and trust this process and go back there, there's a lot of incredible good that can come out of it. And then watching that happen, it's like, oh, my goodness, why did I wait so long? Because there's been such positive growth that came from that. But it does start with that willingness to go to some places we maybe don't want to have to revisit.

I didn't want to revisit that so bad that I began to plan my death.

Wow.

And I told Lori as we got closer to the polygraph, because, you know, we. I live at. I live and work at home on a dairy farm. So I went home at about 8 o' clock when I knew Laurie was eating her breakfast, and. And I said to her, I. I can't. I'm not doing this. And it was. Either I didn't do it, and the only way I could get out of.

It was death, was this fear around the polygraph in particular, knowing that you couldn't hide it.

It was fear in that when I had. When I would. I was convinced that if my trauma story came out, Lori was gonna leave me. And so for 40 years, I believed that lie. And I shoved so deeply down into my brain the trauma that happened. It was as if it never happened. That's what I thought and what I wanted to believe, that if I just ignore it, it'll go away. But so the next thing I know, Lori's on the phone with Diane, and Diane comes busted into the Zoom conference that Dr. Ted and I are having and says, louie's suicidal and all my guns are locked up. And it was a real sobering time for me just to admit that I had come to that point that I would rather die than tell my story.

Wow.

And.

It'S interesting because you said that your fear was that she would leave you if it came out, but you would rather voluntarily leave and keep that story hidden than to let it come out and to have her leave you voluntarily.

Right?

Yeah.

I think it reveals the pain that we can be stuck in and why we work sometimes so hard to try to leave it there, because that is the level of shame, fear, regret, remorse, whatever's wrapped around that story that's there. And it. It speaks to the importance of addressing it. Because if there's that level. Right. That you would consider taking your own life, if there's that level of pain and shame around it, that speaks to its importance. And the. The interesting thing I find for a lot of. And again, men in particular, but I'm sure for women, too, is there's kind of this dual mindset that can be taking place where on the one hand, we're trying to convince ourselves and sometimes other people, oh, it's not that big of a deal. It doesn't matter. We don't need to go there. The past is, you know, so we're minimizing it. But on the other hand, there's so much pain that it would lead us towards suicidal thinking and ideation. Like, and that discrepancy, I think a lot of people haven't really realized that their brain is doing both at the same time. And that really is crazy making and can help us see, like, wow, there's a big level of unhealth here, and why am I willing to live in that? What could happen if I was willing to walk in and face some of that with the help of people that have done this a lot before?

The body keeps score, and it kept score on me. I was not healthy because of keeping the secret.

So, Louis, once you began to face the trauma and started to experience some healing, what were the outcomes in your own life and in your family?

So after I finally broke down with Dr. Ted and through sobs, shared my story with him for the first time, I literally felt a weight lift. I mean, I finally had gotten the words out, and he convinced me that there is no way Lori's gonna leave. You're safe. So when we were done with that, that Zoom call, I just got up and went straight outside and went to work. I didn't have it in me to even face Lori, who was waiting for me to get off Zoom. She was waiting upstairs. I didn't want to see her. And I. And I worked late that night. That was my escape. I always went to work, and Dr. Ted encouraged me to share with Lori the same night. And so I did, and it was hard. And she just listened and held me and said she loved me and she wasn't going anywhere. And within a week of that night, I began sleeping better. Within a month, I didn't have to take Ambien to sleep anymore. I didn't have to take over the counter sleeping aids.

So you'd been taking these for Years.

Years.

Okay.

Years. In order to sleep. And I don't. I don't have to take anything, even today, to sleep. So that was the biggest change physically.

Wow.

For me. And. And it answered a whole lot of questions that Laurie had, and it explained why I did the dumb things that I did through our entire marriage. You know, porn wasn't the only addiction I had. I had alcohol. I had pain medicine. And it. The list is. Is fairly long of things that I tried to hide the pain in. Yeah. And run from. Didn't realize it, but that's what I was.

It's interesting. When I went through counseling, this. This picture that my counselor gave me, as he said, it's. You're going through life like a balloon that's being squeezed, and it pops out on one side, and you're looking at porn, and you go, okay, I don't want to look at porn. So you push in. Now I'm drinking too much. So you push it in. Now I'm playing video games. Now I'm workaholic. He goes, it will continually just move around until you can actually deflate that balloon and eliminate the driving, the driving force behind it.

And I had the perfect place and the perfect job to become a workaholic because for 24 hours a day, the dairy never stopped.

Right.

I always had men working for me, and so I always had an excuse to go to work, and that's what I did.

And workaholism in particular is. You know, my counselor said there's white addictions and black addictions, and workaholism is a white addiction. It functions in many, much the same way as other addictions in allowing us to not think about or feel what we don't want to feel. Isolating us from our family, those kinds of things. But in America, in particular, it's applauded. And we're rewarded for it.

Yeah. Can be rewarded with praise and income and growth and, like, oh, they're doing so amazing, but not seeing the very unhealthy underside of it.

Right, right, right.

Well. And you lived at your work too, right. It's. You're at the dairy all the time. I was just walk out the door. And you can avoid your pain by going to the dairy.

And when my kids were younger and we had just moved there, that's what I did. I just disappeared at the. Into the dairy. And there were months that would. During harvest time on top of the dairy that I wouldn't see the kids. I would come in after they're in bed and be gone. Long before they're awake. You know, after. After that period, I got. I was led to. To be a high school youth pastor and a very unqualified youth pastor, youth director. But that allowed me, as my kids got older, to then pour into that ministry, so I didn't have to deal with the stuff that I was dealing with.

Interestingly, my father was a workaholic as well. Come home after we went to bed, gone before we got up in the morning. So I resonate a lot with that part of your story. And he also was asked to help out with the youth at our church. And I just remember thinking, you are so fake. You're not even present at home, and you're trying to act like you're the great father here at youth group.

Yeah, that's hard.

I hope my kids didn't say that about me, but I'm sure that there was. There were times where I made the wrong choices.

Yeah, we all do.

Yeah.

Well, Louie, facing our trauma is rarely, and I would say maybe never, just a one and done kind of experience. You know, you get it out there, you tell Ted, you tell your wife, but that doesn't mean it's over or done with. So what steps did you continue to take to overcome the shame messages of your past and to walk out God's truth for you?

For one, the biggest thing that I had to handle was the critic within and the negative voices that I had been listening to for so many years. That I'm not good enough. Nobody will understand. The list was. Was pretty long. And so the lie that I'm not good enough was straight, I believe was a lie straight from hell. And of course, in my. During my lifetime, my answer to being good enough was work a little harder and milk a few more cows, make a little bit more money. You know, that was. That was how I handled it. So because we were in marriage therapy, I had to join a Seven Pillars group. And it was in that Seven Pillars group that we were also doing marriage therapy. And Lori and I, our marriage began to really connect at an. At a new level. And not just sexually. It was. We connected at a level that after 40 years of marriage we didn't think was even possible. And it wasn't easy because I was the one who had to do most of the changing. Lori was. Was an innocent bystander. And so I felt like I had the spotlight on me during this period. Dr. Ted always says, if you got a question, ask your wife if you're doing something right or wrong. And, you know, through Laurie's guidance, I've been able to drop the anger. I mean, I still, for no reason, will get angry. And I have to catch myself at it because it's usually around a question that Laurie will ask me, and I'll immediately hear in my head, she's asking that because you're not good enough, or.

She'S pointing out a flaw, A weakness.

A weakness. And the hairs under my neck will just stand up like a dog and just want to go into attack mode. And so, you know, that process virtually changed my Life. And when Dr. Ted said it was going to be two to five years for my brain to get fixed, I'm going, no way. Nothing takes two to five years. Give me a pill and it'll go away. And I'm at year eight now, and it took all of the five years.

You know, it's interesting you brought up the anger issue, and I'm curious if in leading groups, you guys have had or seen this experience where guys will come in with an anger problem, and as they deal with their trauma, their anger begins to subside. Have you noticed that?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah. Especially I forget what pillar it is when you list the 10 most horrible things that happen to you and you got to read those things through. There's something about reading it out loud to a group of guys, I think that just unloads it. And I. For a lot of guys, I think that's where the healing starts.

I agree.

Just listing that stuff.

Yeah, it's realizing that anger is a secondary emotion, Meaning anger is what we do in response to something else we feel first. And that's a part of, like, life and this journey that no one had ever helped me see because I had. Externally, I don't get angry. In fact, my wife has claimed she's only seen me get angry once. And I'm like, I think that's overly kind because I know on the inside, like, there was a lot of anger, and what would trigger it underneath was fear or feeling humiliation or having a weakness exposed and that everyone would see I wasn't good enough. And all of the performance stuff that I had built would come crumbling down because people go, oh, you're a fraud. You're actually a nobody. You're not good enough. And even if that was far, far away from the truth, that little bit of fear that that might happen would create the anger. And then the anger is what would create my critical response or my critical look to my kids. And as you start to unpack that, you realize, like, man, there is a lot more going on underneath my anger. And if all I try to do is to, quote, unquote, stop being angry. And I think a lot of Christians, that's kind of their goal, like, well, stop being angry. And it's a little bit. Then, like the balloon illustrator, like, we'll just push that anger down a little deeper so nobody sees it. And externally, maybe we look like less angry, but inside, we have no less turmoil. We have no more peace, because we haven't really addressed what's driving the anger in the first place.

And I wasn't. I wasn't an angry angry. It wasn't like I was slamming doors or screaming at Lori. I don't remember raising my voice during this period. But it was a. It was a different kind of anger. It was one that was justified almost, you know, because I wasn't that guy.

Yeah.

You know, so.

Well, a lot of times we can be angry at ourselves.

Oh, boy.

Yeah.

You know, angry that I'm not enough. That I'm not able to accomplish the things I want to accomplish, to be the husband I want to be, the ability to quit porn. I remember thinking, if I was a real man, I'd be able to stop doing this. I must not be a real man. Your story, this is actually kind of cool, because I didn't know this. I was surprised by this. But your story of healing has a new, unique connection to our compassionate warrior workbook, which is the follow up for seven Pillars. What can you tell us about that and how that happened?

How that happened is nothing short of God. So after I shared with Dr. Ted, he. He suggested that I get a couple sessions of brainspotting. And I didn't know what brain spotting was. It looked like hocus pocus to me.

Me too.

Yeah.

And, you know, he sent me some music, and I had to listen to this music, and it pings in the right ear and pings in the left ear. And I'm going, this is a joke. You know, So I more or less just went into it with the attitude of, we'll see once where this goes. And Dr. Ted, he started off by asking me where my. When I was a child, when I was young, where was my safe place? It was always in a fort that we built or, you know, that was outside the house. And then later in life, early in marriage, it was on Mount Palomar in San Diego, in with my blue pup tent, sitting next to a stream. And that was my safe place. And so he said, okay, now we're gonna talk about the trauma that happened to you. And he Started moving the pointer over and, and all of a sudden my heart starts beating and I'm sweating and Dr. Ted's asking me questions and I wake up, I can physically smell the fire burning. I can feel the sleeping bag. It was the most unbelievable experience that I've ever had. To be able to go back and revive those memories that I had suppressed for years, decades. And so after I was done describing all of that, he says, okay, so now we're going to go over to your safe place. And he moves the pointer to the other direction. And all of a sudden this calm and peace came over me. He said, so where are you? I said, I'm sitting on a log next to the stream. It's cold, it's morning, and I can hear the birds singing. And my blue pup tent is behind me and I'm just sitting there looking through Psalms. And Dr. Ted asked me a question and he said, look over your left shoulder and who's coming down the hill? And I turn to my left and here comes Jesus coming down this hill toward me. And this is as real as real gets. And my first reaction is, no, I can't be in your presence. So I'm crying and Jesus tries to come close to me and I virtually shoved him away and finally I fell into his arms and I just sobbed. And I remember saying, I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy. How could you ever love? And I sobbed for a long time in his shoulder. Then Dr. Ted said, what does Jesus have for you in his hands? And Jesus was carrying a wooden box, small box, a handmade box. And in the box was a ring with, excuse me, with a, an uncut diamond on one side, the cross in the middle, and a perfect diamond on the other side. And he handed me the ring and he said, you're an uncut diamond made pure through the cross, through me and on the inside he said, and I want you to be my compassionate warrior. And so that's inscripted on the inside of the ring that I went through thousands of rings in on Etsy to try to figure out and find one that looked like the one that he gave me. I ended up having this one custom made. All that happened. And when we were done with this brain spotting, Dr. Ted said, you need to take whatever, however long it's going to take. You got to write this down because in a month you're not going to believe what, what you just went through. It's so far fetched I wouldn't believe me if I heard my story. So I did. I wrote it down and I let Lori read it. And we cried and we hugged and we knew that that was the hand of God just touching me and healing me and taking the pain that I had suppressed for so many years out. So he asked me. He. I sent it to Dr. Ted, and he read it. And he sends me back a 1, 1 line answer by email. That was great. Can I use it in my book?

Was it in all caps?

You've gotten emails from Dr. Ted Roberts.

So I know it wasn't all caps and it wasn't in the subject line, but without thinking twice, I said, yeah, go ahead. Not knowing that he was close to finishing a book. And I don't know if he. If he named the book Compassionate warriors after. After my story or if he had that picked already. And somehow God worked out that it would work this way. But I gave him permission to use my story. I didn't know how or why. And that was. That was almost four years ago. So three years go by. I don't give it a second thought. I'm not sharing my story. I'm not talking to anybody. I'm just leading my seven pillars groups and going about life. And then I find out that Compassionate warriors comes out. And then one night on the east coast at a baseball. Prior to a baseball game, I'm with a bunch of guys from Pure Desire, and I have a tattoo on my arm of the Compassionate Warrior, and he's carrying a shield, and on the shield is cw. I had no idea that. And that Compassionate Warrior that's on my arm is almost identical to the one that's on the book.

Yeah.

And none of this was scripted. Yeah, none of it was scripted.

And so when I think I said, your tattoo looks a lot like the COVID of our new workbook, and I thought it was maybe the other way around, like, that you had seen the workbook and gotten a similar tattoo. And then I get the story. Like, no, this was totally separate. I did it out of my story. And like, man, I just felt like the Lord is at work because we ended up choosing almost the exact image, having no idea that the person who inspired the story and the title had a very similar image on their arm. So it was kind of a cool moment for a lot of us.

Well, and then it had to be orchestrated only by God that I was with Pure Desire, men that would understand my story. And I still couldn't tell my story to the degree I just told it. I just said I had a experience with Dr. Ted and explained a Few things. That's my personal promise I need. I'm a visual guy. That's why I wear rings. I have a necklace. So when I get up in the morning and I'm getting ready for the day, I see my prophetic promise on my arm and it reminds me of who I am in Christ.

That's beautiful.

So that's how Compassionate warriors and I kind of got tied together. Yeah. But the cool part was I got to read my story for the first time out of the Compassionate Warrior to a group of Pure Desire guys while we were fishing. And Dr. Ted was there, and Dr. Adrian Hickman was also there.

Wow.

And Adrian played a role in our family also. And so it was also orchestrated by God.

Pretty powerful.

It was super.

Yeah. And what, you know, Lou, you don't know on the inside of it as we're doing these edits and re edits. And it took Ted quite a while to complete the book. And that title, Compassionate Warrior, you know, we're in a day and age where warriors, as a theme are not always seen in a positive light. And it's like, how will this play with audiences or will people understand it? And we went back and forth on a lot of titles and a lot of different approaches, and there was no, like, sense of, well, you know, like, I didn't know your story and the connection to the book in that way. I mean, obviously I knew what was in the intro, but in the end, I think we all just felt like that phrase, though it may culturally not be perfect, is the perfect fit for the book. Because we're trying to help men in that experience understand the two sides of Christ's call to make us compassionate, to be people who are able to love our spouses and kids and families well and the world and friends, but also see the side that we're called to be in the healthiest sense, warriors for Christ, to war against injustice and evil and perversion and to stand in places where strength is needed and to do it in God's strength. And we just ultimately felt like, all right, some people might, you know, see the war motif or be like, whatever, but when they get into it, they're going to see this is really capturing God's heart, I think, for men, that Compassionate Warrior. And so the title won out. And then there's all these connections. Like, man, I'm so glad we didn't change the title and miss all these beautiful connections to your story.

Yeah. So it's. It's really an honor. And, you know, when we found out that my Story was in there. Lori and I were talking early on, and she looked me straight in the eye and she said, louie, are you ready for this? And my answer then was, no, I'm not. I didn't pick this ministry. This isn't the ministry that I woke up one day and say, I want to be involved in pure desire, because I've got a problem with porn. This ministry has picked me.

Yeah.

And it has reshaped the last five years of our marriage and my entire family.

Yeah.

And, you know, to that I give God the glory.

Amen.

It's so cool.

Yeah.

So, Louis, perhaps, like you, many of our listeners, and this would be women and men as well, they might be hesitant to go there to revisit painful parts of their past, of their story, especially things from childhood that it feels like, man, it's so long ago. Why revisit that hard, painful stuff? So what kind of encouragement or wisdom would you share about why this is so necessary to healing and recovery?

It is so hard to turn and face the pain. There's an analogy. I think it's in Seven Pillars of a man who has a nightmare, and he's constantly outrunning darkness. And then he finally shares his nightmare with his sister, and his sister says, well, stop running. Turn and face it. Attack it head on. I really identified with that. And I was reluctant. I was reluctant to tell my story to just Dr. Ted and Lori and then read it. An explanation to each one of our married siblings or. And married kids and their siblings. But it is so worth it to finally come to terms with the pain that we've stuffed for so many years. And there's just no easy way to.

Do it, you know, And I suspect you guys have experienced this too. But as I've led groups, I've been in groups with some of the same men for multiple years. And it seems like anything around molestation or sex abuse is the very, very last thing to come out. Even in my own life. It was one of those things. I had an incident with an older cousin when I was six, and it took me five years in group before I let that out. Just because I went, well, that doesn't really matter. No one needs to know that one thing. Right. But, Nick, you always bring up the gift of going first. And it seems like for those of us that have experienced that in our sharing it, one of the benefits as a leader is it gives permission to other people to share what took place in their lives.

When I went through my sex abuse, I was 17 years old, and I Don't remember a lot of it because I was drunk. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time with some wrong people. And so for years, you know, I met Lori just four months after I. I went through that.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I grabbed on to Lori for. With everything I had because I honestly thought I was gay. And, and I wrestled with that.

Yeah.

For a long time. And, you know, I don't know where I'd be right now. I'd probably be dead if it weren't for Lori, you know, dealing with all of this stuff. But God just orchestrated everything. So. Yeah, there's. There's this deep seated fear that our story will make us less than. And I'm finding out that by sharing my story to safe people, it actually helps them.

Yes.

And when I shared in my Seven Pillars group, through sobs and, and just trying to talk, they reaffirm me. And it was opposite of what I thought they were going through, how they were going to react.

Yeah. So that's the beauty of group is I remember the very first group I went to. The leader says, okay, here's what's going to happen. Everybody in the room is going to tell you their story, and then you're going to share yours. And I remember thinking, okay, just take all the emotion out of it and just do this thing. And as they went around the table, I'm like, I identify with a piece of your story and a piece of your story, a piece of your story and a piece of your story. And I'm like, these guys just gave me the nuke button to their life, which is my fear. Right, right. I'm going to tell my story and someone's going to share it with somebody. And I just want to tell you thank you for letting your story be shared in the Compassionate Warrior.

Thank you.

It's just such a. Such a beautiful thing that you allowed us to do that.

It was a. It's an honor to be. Be a part of it.

Yeah.

Well, God is using it.

Yeah.

And I think we listen to a lie that says, if I can hide my past pain, life will be better. And as you've talked in your story, Louis, it was not better. In fact, it made things worse. Physically, relationally, spiritually, like it was holding you back and causing pain and dysfunction in all those areas. And so the flip side is also true. If we can begin to listen to truth that says life can actually be much better if we can get to the other side of this, if we can face it and walk through it. Yes. It will be hard. It's not easy. There's not an easy way to do a hard thing, and this is a hard thing. But if we can start to have faith and vision that says, man, on the other side of this, there's stronger relationships, there's a better walk with Christ, there's less physical sickness. And I, you know, I don't want to turn it into a health and wealth gospel, but I think we've just seen there is a reality of when we get the pain out, it's like getting the poison out.

Absolutely.

Life can be better. And I hear that so much in group of people say, like, if I'd have known how good it could be on this side, I would have been willing to face it a lot sooner. But we can get so stuck in that lie that says, man, don't let it out because this is the best it can be and you're only going to make it worse. Facing that lie can give us the courage to walk through what we need to.

Louie, as we wrap up.

Can you.

Just share how life is different now than it was pre2020, before this all came out? What is your life like? What is your marriage life? How is God using you? What are you seeing happen?

Well, I thought our marriage was okay. I was pretty content with our marriage.

Laurie wasn't the witchy.

No, she knew. She sensed.

Yeah.

And I believe that was from the Holy Spirit. She sensed there was more that I needed to deal with. And so our marriage is in a completely different place. And we're going to celebrate 43 years in February.

Congratulations.

I mean, I'm old. I feel, you know, when my dad was 62, 63, and I was in my early 40s, he was old.

Right.

But it's given me the ability to speak into young men's lives. And now that I'm semi retired, I don't know where the Lord's going to lead in this ministry and how involved I can get. But, you know, I'm leading three groups right now. I'm in. There's about. I think there's 20 guys right now that I'm working with one on one, and. And so I'm staying busy doing that. And if God wants me to share the story to other churches and other groups in the future, that's what I'll do.

That's.

Just to give him the glory through the pain.

As this stories come out, obviously your children have found out. How did that go?

That was. Those were some difficult conversations.

Yeah, yeah.

So I wrote what happened to me and set each couple down individually and read them my story. And it wasn't easy, but I think the openness and the honesty went a long way for them asking for help too. And I don't know, our family is in such a place right now where I've got three son in laws that love each other. It's crazy. I mean, usually, you know, when you get together with four kids and four spouses and all their kids get mixed together, you're going to have arguing and fighting drama and it's just not there. The unity in the family because of our openness is, I think, nothing short of a miracle. Yeah.

So that's awesome.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's so hard for us to imagine the kind of impact it will have when we're on the. The front side of it and we're facing the pain and we're facing the scary unknowns, but to just see the ripple effects that keep coming from it is what we get the joy of seeing over and over in people's stories and here at Pure Desire. And so, Louis, we are so grateful for you and for sharing today. As we wrap up, is there any final word of encouragement that you'd like to leave listeners with today?

God can heal your pain and don't walk through it alone. I tried really, really hard to do it by myself, and it wasn't until I finally gave in that I was able to. To find the freedom that God desires. And so. And if. If my story struck you individually as maybe you've had something similar to happen to you and you've not told anybody, shoot me an email or something, we can talk. I'm. I'm more than willing to do that. And if me telling this story today helps just one person on the podcast step forward and deal with their pain and their trauma, it's worth it.

Yeah. As you were saying that I was thinking of the phrase real men need real men.

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think the closing thought I would give is that your story, for everyone listening, your story is unique to you, but what you've experienced is not as unique as the voice of shame is trying to tell you it is.

Absolutely.

Because what I have found in my own story and in every person I've done group with, there's a little piece of our story that we've been led to believe. If I share this part, this particular trauma or this particular temptation, I have this thing that triggers arousal in me and I feel so shameful, like if I share that, then I'll be rejected and it's often the piece that you said, Mike, we hold on to the longest. And what I just find over and over and over is when we share it and get it out loud in safe, appropriate context, like a group with pure desire, people step forward and go, oh, really? Me too. That we're not nearly as different as we think, you know, in First Corinthians 10:13 is true that no temptation has seized you except what is common. And so even for the very messy parts, you're not alone and you're not the only one. And yes, it's unique to your story, but it does not uniquely disqualify you from God's grace, from the community of his people, and from experiencing love and relationships. And so if you've got a part of your story that you're holding on to and thinking, man, but this piece can never come out, you are missing an opportunity to experience love and joy that God and others have for you. And so take that bold step to believe. Yes, it's unique to my story, but I'm not the only one. And if I will process that in safe places, there's incredible freedom that can come.

Yeah, yeah.

I think safe places is key there. I've had men in group who were so convicted that they just downloaded on their wife without any context. And even though you think and would hope that that's a safe space, sometimes the wife is not prepared to handle that. And so, like you said, I think the safe, safe space in a group is key.

Yeah. The spouse is typically not the first conversation. Right. It will definitely be a part of the journey, but finding that community of your peers, other men, other women, is really vital. Well, Louis, this has been so good. I think better even than I thought it would be. And I knew some of your story, but thank you for your willingness to share, to be authentic about it. Today, we know that sexual abuse is underreported to begin with. And in particular, men tend to avoid this subject at a much, much higher rate. And so I pray that this conversation might help all of us see that sexual trauma can be a part of anyone's story. And when it is, we can face it with God's help and find healing, his grace can meet us and bring transformation beyond what we ever thought possible. So, Louis, thanks so much for joining us today.

Thanks.

Thanks, Louie.

You betcha. Thanks.

And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody else. Write us a review, Help others find healing in their story. If you want more information on our groups resources or counseling through pure desire. Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.