376 - Reaching the Next Gen

Foreign hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today you are listening to episode 376 and here joining me is my guest co host, Mr. Jonathan Beguman, our donor guru here at Pure Desire. John, welcome to the podcast.

I don't know about you but I'm feeling 22. Everything will be all right if you keep me next to you.

Wow. I didn't know you were in a boy band.

I just wanted to pull a little Nick Sumbo on Nick Sumbo for this intro. So here we go.

I have no idea what song that is, which maybe reveals my generation and leads us into what we're talking about today. So tell us what, what is that song for others like me who may be disconnected from that genre, that is.

22 by Taylor Swift, which is probably one of the most influential musical artists right now for Gen Z. I know.

Who Taylor Swift is, but I did not know that was a Taylor Swift song. I'm probably going to get flack for that, especially from my 19 year old and 17 year old daughters who will be like, dad, yeah, you should know.

That I get it. I'll say, as I've served in the youth group for the last two years at Bridgetown Church, there are so many Swifties. And just to say, I am not a Swiftie, but this generation is. And I think as we talk about this conversation, just to put our listeners in the seat of what does it feel like to be 22? What does it feel like to be a part of this emerging generation and how do we approach them? Well, so I just thought it could be fitting regarding this conversation.

Yeah, very good segue. And today we got to interview our friend and actually a Pure Desire board member, Ben Bennett. He's a part of the Josh McDowell Ministries speaking team. He's founder of Evolution Movement, which is a global movement really aimed at young adults and helping them navigate problems and like mental health and anxiety and pornography. And he's got a huge following on social media. Some of our listeners are probably like, oh my gosh, it's Ben Bennett. I know him and I just think he has a lot to add to the conversation today. And it was really a joy to interview him.

Yeah, I agree. Really grateful for his role in my life, you'll hear in the episode. But just he was a critical part of me finding access to pure desire. And so it just feels fitting that we're talking about reaching Gen Z when I myself am in the role of Gen Z and I'm in this room today because of Ben. So I could not be more grateful for him. You'll hear that in the episode many times.

Yeah. And there isn't any more singing in the episode, although there is a lot of alliteration. Hope our listeners can appreciate that. But yeah, we wanted to just zero in on how do we help Gen Z and understand the uniquenesses of what they might be facing. And so if we're in Gen Z and you're a listener, I hope today's may be insightful for you about the generation you're a part of and things that are common to your experience and for those of us that are not Gen Z, that it really provides some new insights into the role that we can play in bringing help and wholeness to today's young people. So here is our conversation with Ben Bennett on reaching the next generation. All right, Ben Bennett, thanks so much for joining us today. How are you doing?

I'm doing well. How are you gentlemen?

Very good.

Doing all right. Got a cup of coffee. I'm ready to go.

We are excited to jump in on this conversation. So today, Ben, we want to pick your brain a little bit about how to help the next generation in this area of developing healthy sexuality. But before we get to that, tell our listeners who may not have heard you on other podcasts, tell us a little bit more about yourself. Who is Ben Bennett and specifically what kind of engagement do you have with teens and young adults?

Yeah, I get to serve as a speaker and Author with Josh McDowell Ministry. And there I also lead what we have named the Resolution Movement. It's a global initiative helping young people overcome hurts and struggles. And so we talk about mental health, addiction, trauma, and we create a lot of content on social media. And then I'm also, I've gotten into the content creation world. So I've been doing a lot of that the past two years on my personal social media channels and just reaching millions of people. Many of them are Gen Z. And so everything from messages every day from Gen Zers asking about faith or asking about how do I get free from lust and pornography or how do I find a Christian therapist. I get all those types of questions on in the comments section or in my direct messages.

Yeah, I know you're really big on TikTok. Is that the main one or are you on other, you know, what are you going to do if. If TikTok has to get banned in the US what's your game plan there?

Well, I've shifted a lot to Instagram. So, okay, TikTok, I was at 180,000 followers and now Instagram has kind of caught up a little bit. So, yeah, doing a lot more on Instagram now.

That's awesome. And I know you were telling me the other day, like, you've had a lot of people that in the comments have said they prayed to receive Christ. What were the numbers that you said have posted something like that on your channel?

I kind of became like a TikTok evangelist from. It was summer of 2022 through January of 2023. I was just going, going hard, doing three videos a day and talking about felt needs like fear and. Yeah, mainly, mainly fear, like fear of death, fear of tomorrow, you know, just young fears young people are dealing with. And I was talking about that and, and bringing in the Christian worldview and talking about how Jesus doesn't want us to fear and we can have hope with him and giving people the opportunity to pray and give this, give their lives to Jesus. Basically doing like tick tock altar calls.

Wow.

And I would say if you prayed that prayer, say I prayed that prayer in the comments. And over those six months, we counted over a hundred thousand people had commented that they prayed to give their lives to Jesus.

That's amazing.

What I've really seen is that so many young people are curious about Jesus, are giving their life to Jesus. And we're going to have, I think in 10 years we're going to see that we have the biggest generation of unchurched Christians, not de churched Christians like millennials who grew up in the church and many walked away from the faith. Now with Gen Z, we're seeing a lot of people come to faith as digital natives, stay digitally connected, but never walk into community in person or into churches. So that's a big problem we're going to have to. Or a big opportunity we're going to have to figure out.

Yeah, Ben, my brain goes to this. I know that from our time working together at Joshua Ministry in Dallas, which is such a beautiful part of my story. Thanks for being a part of that. I know that Joshua ministry doesn't just have a push or influence here in the US but also globally. I'm curious, when you're talking about these videos, when you're talking about people responding, how much of that do you think is in the US and how much of that do you think is actually at a global scale?

Most of it was in the US just based on how TikTok works. TikTok basically shows you, unless you specifically follow someone in a different country, it shows you just videos of people in your country. So mostly the US but then I did start to look at the analytics and see somehow people in like the Philippines and whatnot or India were following along as well.

Wow. So Ben Bennett, global social media digital evangelist. Yes, something like that.

I got to a point where I was like, man, this is awesome seeing God move in this way. But is this really what I want to do long term? Is this what God's calling me to do long term? Based on my story and the things I've been through? And I love doing that. I love seeing people meet Jesus. But I kind of stepped away from doing those type of videos because I want to help people continue to heal and get into their stories. And just the work I've been doing the past 13 years in ministry has been helping people be restored to who God created them to be.

Yeah. So before we get into the second question, just to lean in and say, this episode is titled Reaching the Next Generation and I just think it's really beautiful, Ben, that if it wasn't for a phone call that you and I had in the process of getting hired to work at Josh Madame Ministry now almost four years ago, which is crazy, I wouldn't be here. And so just to say thank you for being such a critical part of my own story. I think that's kind of the beauty of this episode in my mind is that we get to talk to you about reaching them. But here I am, I've been reached. I'm on the other end of the camera now, which is just crazy. And so thank you for being a huge part of my story. Some of our listeners are Gen Z like me, but some of them aren't. And I'd love just if you could give our audience a purview of what is a unique experience of somebody who grew up a part of Gen Z. What are some of those unique characteristics that they embody?

So many great characteristics. I was reading recently how the majority of Gen zers are not working a 9 to 5 but are doing freelance work. And it's like so they have this bigger vision of rather than I have to do this, I have to fit into this box. It's like no, I can actually change the world around me. I can actually start a non profit. I can actually, I think because they grew up seeing marches and protests and things like that because of the Internet. I think there's, there's more of a drive in them to bring about positive social change. I think they're more exposed to the injustices in the world and they want to be a part of, of changing that. They're more connected, as I've witnessed. Like a couple years ago, just seeing how so many people over social media got in contact with each other and then formed this formed protest. Not, not violent protests. I'm not, I'm not talking about anything like that, but like, you know, freedom of speech. And they were motivated to do that as, as teenagers. And so seeing that drive is, is beautiful. On the not so positive side, I think of a study done by Springtide in 2022 that found that 55% of Gen Z say they are moderately or extremely anxious, 47% say they are moderately or extremely depressed, and then 45% say they are moderately or extremely lonely. I remember speaking a couple years ago to a group of Gen zers and asking people to raise their hands if they had been diagnosed with a mental health condition. And 40% of them raised their hand. And so, so many people are growing up anxious, depressed, lonely, struggling with mental health issues and not really knowing what to do about it. Not really hearing the church or Christians talk about that in a positive light. 91 of Christians say that mental illness is still stigmatized in the church. And so just like, you know, pornography, as you all talk about so much, it's stigmatized in the church, so is our mental health conditions. And you know, as we know, as I know in my story, as we've talked about on previous episodes of the podcast, there's such a tie between pornography and then feeling shame and then depression and correlations and studies between anxiety and depression and pornography. The more people who use pornography, the more depressed and anxious they are. And the, you know, Gen Z is growing up with pornography normalized more than ever before. We did a study a couple years ago with Gen Z college leaders, Christian leaders, and this was the first time I saw these numbers among women, that 80% of the female Christian leaders were addicted to pornography.

Yeah.

And obviously the number of men was, was higher, but it has just become so normalized. It's the new sex ed pornography for young people.

Yeah. I had a friend in our friend group recently look at me, Ben, and say, john, you have no idea how many young adult women that you're talking with about sexuality. And it's their story. Like it's not just, I mean, we know that it's not a male or female problem, that it is a people problem. And yet again, Just for so long in the church. It just hasn't been an invitation or a conversation to be had as a young adult or a Gen Z female. It's been really beautiful. The Sexual Integrity 101 course that me and some friends are getting to host this summer. We have more ladies showing up than guys. And it's just made my heart so happy to say this is a conversation that they're getting invited to have. And the leader of that time said John, not a one of these women have pursued recovery. This is their first thought or conversation or group experience when it comes to engaging this conversation. And I'm like, man, that breaks my heart, but it also makes me so happy that this is a place and this is a time where they can begin engaging that conversation, that they too can find help because they're definitely not alone.

Yeah, we're seeing a generation that has grown up differently than any of us in like every generation, the things that are your norm when you're young really influence the kind of things that are prevalent I think when you're into adulthood. So I have four kids and all of them technically fall into Gen Z and, and so they all grew up with the Internet being normal, high speed Internet, streaming services, devices, smartphones, tablets, like that's just always been a part of what they have experienced. And on the flip side too, I hear from my kids and their friends, it's a much more, I think, holistic, connected generation in terms of seeing their life as connected because they grew up with mental health and the brain being talked about in school. And I'll see assignments my kids have to do about mental health and some things like that. And they grew up with a lot of concern for our world and the environment and the earth and the planet. And you know, whether someone agrees with that or not, there are elements of that that are, I think healthy to see. Like, we live in a world, let's take care of it. And so I think for my kids and for Gen Z, there is this sense of like, boy, all this is a part of life. Whereas others of us maybe tended to tend to segment a little more and be like, well, this is kind of my spiritual church life. And then yeah, there's these social concerns over here, but they're not really that connected where for my kids, I think it's all connected to what does it mean to live in this world, to be a person, to experience these things and are able to bring that into their faith in ways that maybe older generations have not. So I think there are some positives there. But also it may lead to what you were saying, Ben. The stats on anxiety, depression, fear, really being driven by the things they've heard about our world and the planet and social causes. And it's like, man, there's a lot to be concerned about. And they feel engaged and connected to all that. And so it's a lot for them to navigate.

Yeah, it is. I just know in my journey when it's like awareness, maybe this goes back to the garden. It's like the more and more you're aware of things going on in the world, it's like the more and more you have to worry about. And, you know, Adam and Eve, when they had more limited knowledge in it was better for them when they weren't like God knowing everything. And when you, you've heard it said, we were created, you know, for a village, you know, we were created to basically just know about the worries and concerns of people in a group of like 30 or 50. But now we're. We're aware of the concerns of 7 billion people on the planet.

Yeah.

And every day inundated and without, you know, strong faith in Christ, knowing that he's sovereign, that he's coming back, that he's not letting the world go to hell in a hand basket, People are really worried because who's going to stop the bad things from happening if you don't believe that God is stopping bad things from happening all the time and that he's going to care for you and protect you. And so one of the biggest videos that I did, different versions of that I saw do really well among young people is Jesus doesn't want you to fear tomorrow. And I would talk about how I would quote a scripture like Matthew 6 and not worrying because. And the reason we don't have to worry is because we've got Him, a good shepherd who's with us. He's going to protect us. He's protecting us every day from bad things happening we don't even know about. And just having that kind of mental reframe was so helpful for people because they don't have that reframe. It's just I. They don't know how much Jesus cares about them, how much he's protecting them, that he's even in your problems. He's walking through it with you. He hasn't abandoned you. He's going to see you through it.

So, Ben, as you're saying, access and awareness has both pros and cons. And you talked about some of the downside of that the fear, the anxiety, the worry, the depression. What would you say are the questions that young adults and teenagers are asking? What are the kind of things on their hearts and minds that when they reach out or interact with you, what are you hearing kind of come out of their. This generation, in terms of questions.

So many. I don't know where to start. And I would say for me, because of the content I create, I probably get a very small segment of the questions that this generation is, is asking, but they're. One of my mentors said that there are with every generation. This was so brilliant. He said it. With every generation there are three topics of questions that they're always going to ask. One was about sex. Whether that's, you know, identity or all the things coming up today, or what is sex? What was it for? Who's it for? You know, what about the identity with sex? Another one is science. You know, the apologetic type of questions. And I have the third one written down that I have to look at because I'm drawing a blank right now. But. Oh, suffering, science, sex and suffering. All S's. That should be easy to remember.

Good alliteration.

Yeah, come on.

Yeah, suffering. Why does. If God is good, if there is a God, why is there so much suffering in the world? Why did God allow that to happen to me in my life? So I think those are brilliant places to start because that happens with every generation. And I'm seeing all those come up with this generation as one who works for an apologetics organization. It's just different forms of those questions. You can take that filter and apply it to current day events and the conversations people are happening and that's what they're asking questions about. But I see a lot of people. It's so interesting. I see so many people dealing with intrusive thoughts and they're. I don't know if there's so many because I, I was diagnosed with OCD as a kid and so I'm very familiar with intrusive thoughts. I don't know if more and more people are dealing with OCD today or if just intrusive thoughts. They're having trouble distinguishing between what is them and what is just an intrusive thought.

Can you define that, what an intrusive thought is?

Yes. An intrusive thought is a scary, uncomfortable, taboo thought or image that seemingly randomly comes into your mind.

Yeah. And like I want to punch this person right now. It's like, why am I thinking about that? Or yeah, what if I just.

Yeah, what's wrong with me? Like, why would I have such evil thoughts? Or, man, this fear keeps coming up. Or. And a lot of people have it about Christianity, like, whether it's doubts about God or blasphemous thoughts about Jesus. And they get. That leads to such anxiety that feels so crippling. I get so many messages about that, and then they're like, will God forgive me? Was that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? And so I dealt with such religious OCD growing up, like, doubts about God's existence. If I had a doubt, maybe I'm no longer saved. I'm seeing so many young people following Jesus that are dealing with that. Another huge one is pornography. It's lust. A lot of times I'll reach out saying, hey, I'm struggling with lust. And I'm like, I know you're struggling with pornography. Lust just seems like a softer word.

Softer word for Christian word.

Yeah. Masturbation or porn or corn, as we say online. You got to say corn, otherwise you're getting censored. I talked to Instagram about this. I was like, what words can I use? Because I've got an Instagram coach. They're doing that for creators now. Like, so what happens if I create a video talking about porn, wanting to help people? They're like, well, the algorithm can't determine if you're trying to push something that's against the user guidelines, like actual porn. You're talking about actual porn, or if you're trying to help people. I was like, okay.

So Ben talks about a lot of corn addiction on Instagram.

Yeah, I was so addicted to corn, let me just tell you. Like a lotus. Popcorn, buttery corn.

Well, Ben, just to speak to for a second, you're talking about suffering, science, sex, the questions that Gen Z are asking or maybe people in this digital age are asking. And I think about When I was 18, I went to that camp in Colorado, and here it was, this worldview apologetic conference. And the first question that I was hit with when I got on the. Literally, the porch of this old hotel near Colorado Springs was, was, who am I? Identity first and foremost. Because I was no longer my small town or my parents or my last name. And then Sean McDowell, aka the son of Josh McDowell, who you get to be working for, which is really beautiful, came in to talk about porn. And he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, Christians can talk about porn? This is crazy. And then he went on to say that it's just so prevalent. And I struggled to believe him, because if you flash back to some of my intrusive thoughts per se, or just these questions about God or my own faith and my upbringing. And, man, the amount of nights that, whether that was using pornography or masturbation or fantasy that I would lay in bed asking God, God, like, if I keep doing this, do you really love me and will I really be with you forever? Like, deep doubts and questions about my own faith, and yet performing right in this Christian world or bubble. And I'm the kid leading at youth group, and I'm on stage for the worship team on Sunday mornings, and yet Sunday afternoons, I can't stop doing this thing. And how do I make sense of that? Like, I can't make sense of my own world. And so I'm just so grateful that so many Gen Z or young adults have someone like you that they can drop a message on Instagram or say, ben, what do I do with all these intrusive thoughts? And also just to say, ben, thank you for being a role model. Thank you for going first. I think leading with your story and vulnerability is such a powerful part of going first, which Rodney would say is leadership. And again, whether that's my own story and how you've been played a role in that or so many others, I'm just. I'm grateful that so many have a older brother in the church that has gone first and owned his story. So thanks for being a part of that.

Appreciate it, John. Yeah.

And as I hear from teens, young adults, I think one of the things that I'm seeing is that connection of if I think this, if that intrusive thought, if that intrusive thought comes in, if I think it, I am that. That that's who I am. And that kind of leads them down one of two paths. Either then the guilt and shame message of, oh, what's wrong with me? I'm bad, I'm wicked, evil, whatever, or the other path of I've got to normalize this, because if this is who I am, well, then I'm just going to be it. And society is embracing that. And you can actually find a whole circle of people that will reaffirm that thing that you think you are now because you felt it. And I do think that's a lot more prevalent. And so we can perhaps look for ways to just have these very conversations and say, just because you think it, it doesn't mean you are, that there are things that come to mind that come, you know, bubbling out of our consciousness that may not reflect anything true or real about us as. As we talk about a lot around here. Maybe a part of our trauma story or pain or wounding or simply the evil in the world. And that we have an enemy that. That wants to assault us. And so if we're willing to kind of disengage or to separate those two things, what I think and who I am, that can lead to, I think, some really healthy and honest conversation.

I totally agree.

Yeah. And. And for older generations, or like my generation and up, a lot of the identity is, I am what I do. Right. We've got so many people in pure desire groups dealing with sex addiction. Like, because I'm addicted to this, that's who I am. And I feel worthless or because of what was done to me. And so so much of the healing comes from starting to see yourself the way God sees you as the seven pillars and other resources talk about. Whereas for this generation, it's, I'm not just what I do, I'm what I think and what I feel. And so the solution is still the same. Helping people get God's thoughts on them. Helping them have true attachment with the Father who loves them and sees them a certain way, no matter what they think, feel, or do.

Yeah. Amen.

Yeah. Ben, there's so much we could talk about on that. I feel like we could talk for hours. But just to say, with this generation that's grown up with the Internet in their pocket at their fingertips literally their entire lives, what do you see as some of the impact of them growing up in a digital age? How is this generation potentially different than past generations that, you know, for Nick, you know, the Internet came out at some point in his story. For me, I was handed the Internet at 13. Like, it was literally in my pocket. How do you see that digital age? What do you think are some of the outcomes?

I see so many positive things, like we talked about before, being able to connect with strangers and form in person, you know, rallies and whatnot. I also see so many people reaching out to me, a stranger sharing for the first time that they were sexually assaulted, that they are dealing with porn, that they're dealing with these intrusive thoughts that I had. This girl reached out to me that for, like, several years she had been dealing with intrusive, blasphemous thoughts about God and was like, did I lose my salvation? And she was just wrestling with that. And I got to point her to different scriptures and talk about how God will forgive you for, you know, ever everything. Just like, you can't earn your salvation, you can't unearn it by doing bad things and Those because of the Internet and growing up on it, people are more comfortable to reach out to strangers and ask for help. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. But I'm thankful that they're reaching out to me and we have this whole online community through discord of people connecting with one another because of that, because people are comfortable with that downsides. A big thing I'm seeing is that many people haven't learned to wrestle and critically think in way two options for me growing up. Because today you got Google or you got TikTok majority of people are starting to search rather than Google search on TikTok and YouTube for answers like how to make a recipe or even or like current news events or who should I vote Vote for you. Search it on TikTok and you see this random TikToker that has a certain following and you believe what they say rather than saying I'm going to look at this side of the story, I'm going to look at this side and I'm going to figure out and investigate and figure out where I land. So the challenge with that is that many people believe what they're told. You know, you believe the facts you're told in, in school. You believe just by googling, the first thing that comes up gives you an answer. We really need to help people learn to critically think and wrestle. And so when I get questions, a lot of times I don't give them a straight answer. I ask them questions back or if they're like, you know and try to help them begin that process of, of critically thinking. And we've talked about some of the other things that have shaped this, this generation. A big thing is the vid. You know, 2020 the vid. For millennials, a big thing that shaped their generation was 9 11. For Gen Z it's the vid like prom getting canceled because of. And by the vid I mean Covid. I just don't want this to get videos up on YouTube.

Covid, yeah.

False. This will get flagged for false information or something and, and growing up having significant things canceled, people dying around you fear everywhere. It's like 911 was a one time traumatic event that you saw. Covid was an ongoing traumatic wow event that Gen Z saw informative years of their life and they had things taken from them. Friends, family members, prom, big experiences, their last football games of the year. Like yeah, my younger brother that's.

I said my younger brother didn't get to have a state track meet. Like there are literally things that were taken away from him that he never experienced. It's just like I'm like wait, what happened that year? He's like John, like that year didn't happen. Yeah, there was nothing. I didn't compete in the state tracked me. I'm like oh my gosh. And Ben, just to like circle back and say, you know here at Petershaur we talk often about our hands, our head and our heart. Right. Our behaviors, our thoughts and feelings and our beliefs. And what I hear you saying is that it's not just core beliefs that Gen Z is wrestling with, but it's also thoughts and feelings. And to your idea of like they not only need to know or believe identity but they need to think and feel identity. And I'm just really curious, how do you see Gen Z moving in a way that is engaging them experientially at a faith level? Like I think about identity of like Nick and I, we are the beloved sons of God as well as well as you Ben. Thank you. And you know, for anybody in our audience, like you are the beloved daughter. And just to say how do you see that identity actually getting experientially lived out at a thought and feeling level when it comes to this generation?

Well, I do a lot of videos on identity and verses like First John 3:1 that we're loved children of God, that God doesn't simply tolerate you really helping people start to. I start with the thoughts and the feelings. No matter if you feel this, no matter if you think this here's what's true. And I think because it's. It's hard to get to the think about my journey, I first had to stop the trash talking voice in my head, you know according to Ted Roberts.

Yeah.

Before I could really. It's like you got to put out one fire so that you can then get to the deeper fire of the core beliefs. And so I'm trying to help so many people stop the thoughts and feelings and realize that they're lies so that they can even get to the core beliefs. And what I'm seeing is that so many people are having experiential right brain moments with my videos. Like they're like oh my gosh, I needed this so much. I'm sitting here crying. That's her right brain.

Yeah.

You know the Holy spirit is showing up.

Come on.

It's like you've believed that you're worthless because you were bullied because you look a certain way. But now and I'm using Bible verses, you know Billy Graham said he used A certain number of Bible verses, every single sermon because of it's the living word of God. And that's one of the reasons I do that because God is going to show up and cut the bone and marrow in people's lives and they're having these right brain experiences of oh my gosh, I'm actually loved by the Father no matter what I do. And so for me that's, that's one of the ways I start. Another way is I do so many youversion plans, do about one a month in English and Spanish. And a lot of my plans are trying to help people implement into their life ways to get free from anxiety, to change their thoughts and then to start to really believe what God says about them. So different practices I give that people are applying to their life.

Yeah, I think that's so important what you're saying, Ben, that we elevate the voice of God, that we elevate that voice of truth and God's word. Because one of the challenges I see for this generation Gen Z, is that all voices have been given equal platform. You know, like you were kind of saying someone could make an incredibly good looking sciency video and quote stuff and just be totally off base. But in how you're viewing it, it may look equally legitimate to a, you know, a tenured Harvard professor who's quoting mounds and mounds of research and data and, and the two might be totally different but look the same. And so young people are challenged like, well, what's true, what's real? And it occurs to me how important it is to determine what voice we're listening to because those voices shape identity and value and worth. And if I'm opening myself up to all of these diverse voices that may not be grounded in anything real, true, healthy or good that's going to influence how I feel about myself and the world versus if we can help someone find the truth of God's word and God's voice and God's opinion of them, that's the voice they need to hear. And I think we need to make sure it doesn't just become one of 10 other voices that have equal weight in their life. It's like finding ways to elevate that as the truth, you know, the way the truth and the life and definitely a challenge. And so Ben, in light of that, you know, everything we've talked about with Gen Z and challenges they face, what does it look like, you know, speak maybe particularly to those of us that are not Gen Z, what does it look like for us to care for and support teens and young adults around us. What do you feel some of our approach should be in helping?

There's a study I've talked about done by Harvard, one of the longest studies ever done. It's been going on for 80 plus years. And they've been tracking people on what led to the healthiest and happiest lives, the lowest amount of disease, the most satisfaction. And the head of the study has said that good relationships keep us happier and healthier, period. And so what? One of the big things missing in this generation, because of the smartphone, because of the Internet, it has caused so much relational disconnection. What do you do when you're tired? You get on your phone. What does the family do at dinner time? It's like maybe they used to put on the tv, but it wasn't always in your pocket. Now it's on your phone. And so toddlers are growing up on screens, relationally disconnected. When people are stressed, they're on their phones. It's. It's just what people need the most is deep relational connection.

Yes.

Where you're. I've said this for a long time. Loneliness is not a lack of friends, it's a lack of meaningful connection. And so day in and day out, you need people that you can process. Your pain, your hopes, your fears, what's going on inside of you. You know you need those people. And that's why calls in pure desire groups are so impactful in the faster scale, because it's, it's healing, because so many people grew up not experiencing that. And so what we can do to help this generation is to help them develop that in their life, help them truly connect with others, whether that's in small groups, in youth group, or it's in our family sitting down and saying, hey, let's talk for 15 minutes, just about the day. And maybe they don't want to do that, but do it like at the dinner table, like you're the parent. You can set the parameters of it and model it. Talk about what you feared that day, what you were feeling, what you're hopeful about. And we talk a lot more about this book that Josh and I wrote called Free to Thrive. We talk about these things called the Seven Longings. Everybody has that. We see. We see this all throughout Scripture. People have these longings to be accepted, safe to be known for people that enter our world and that drives so much of what we do. And so figuring out what those longings are, figuring out how to meet them in people's lives is one of the best things like 90% of issues in young people's lives would go away if they grew up experiencing the seven longings being met.

Yeah, well, it's fascinating to me. I mean, getting to lead groups of Gen Z men primarily over the last three and a half years. Now we're currently in pillar two and talking about isolation. And what I hear you saying, Ben, is we are more connected than ever digitally, and yet somehow we are more isolated relationally than we've ever been. And that paradox is absolutely suffocating and so detrimental. And this week we had a group member show up and just say, I was crying on the way to group this week because I'm realizing just how isolated I've been and that I'm afraid of lingering in places and I'm afraid of being with people and I don't know what to do. And he just said, like, I feel like I've never belonged anywhere. And just the beauty of getting to be in the safe group, in the safe room and say, you belong here. Because his parents were divorced and he had gone back and forth between homes, and there was never stability, there was never a place he could stay. And I just looked at him and said, you can stay here as long as you want. You are more than welcome at any time in this place, and you belong in this group. And it was just this really beautiful moment of saying, hey, you don't have to stay in isolation and you are wanted and welcomed and you belong. And this is a place where you will be met with the reminder of your belovedness. But to your point, it's just like a disconnected generation, unfortunately, in the face of so much connection. How do you make sense of that?

Yeah, I can see that there's going to be a social media quote, and I'm sure for Ben it already has been. But that loneliness is not a lack of friends, a lack of meaningful connection and helping, I think, teens and young adults find meaningful connection. You know, it also makes me think of what Dr. Kurt Thompson says about that everyone's born into this world looking for someone, looking for them. And then he finishes it and says, and it never stops, that our brain is hardwired to look for people that see us, that recognize us, that value us. And I think that's what you're describing in that story, that group member and what every one of us needs and those meaningful connection in relationships is someone that isn't just in the same room, but they see us, they get us, they value us. That in their presence, we know we have meaning. And Worth and we didn't have to perform or do the right thing, just like we're seeing. And that does something in us that even now I think science is recognizing. The brain lights up and all these parts of our brain that otherwise kind of lie dormant suddenly get activated and start to create connection and belonging and define meaning in the world. And so as trite as sometimes it sounds, it's like just spending time with people and valuing them and looking them in the eye and saying, you know, I'm with you in this. You're not alone. That goes a long ways towards someone really seeing themselves in a different light versus just one more text message of hey, praying for you today. And I'm glad we do that and I do that with people. But if that's the level of our connection, we maybe are missing those opportunities to help someone find their value and worth. Because what we've talked about also so much is that when someone can receive that from us in a healthy relationship, it makes them believe that they also can receive that from God, that their heavenly father may feel that way about them. And I know that was my first group experience. It's like, man, if these men that I know are, there's nothing magical about them, but if they can receive my story, my whole story, and love me, then I really started to believe that God does too. That he wasn't ashamed, he wasn't angry, that he really loved me. Because if these men did, then I knew that God could too. So yeah, that meaningful connection, just, that's a huge aspect of what we can do.

I say, Ben, we've talked a lot about ways in which we can help this generation, but also would love just to maybe call out a name. Are there ineffective ways to go about reaching or impacting this generation? Whether that's at an individual level, a pastor level, a leader level. And so if you want to just share a little bit about what are things we should not do in trying to reach or connect or invite this generation into community.

I mean, y' all talk about them a lot of the, the time, things we shouldn't do because it's, I mean, in, in the church, the modern church, these things have been happening just for, for decades. The age old solutions. I was talking to a college student the other day and he had grown up with some of the same spiritual bypassing over spiritualized solutions to pornography or sin struggles. It was, you know, the classic, oh, you need to love Jesus more. If you, if your prayer life goes up, if your Bible reading goes up, you're going to finally get free from this. And studies have shown a correlation that if you read the Bible for four times a week, you will be less stressed, you will drink less, you will look at pornography less. But it doesn't mean you're going to be free.

Yeah.

It just means that's going to go down.

Say it again. Say it again to the people back.

That's a great start. But as we know, there's so much, there's so many deeper issues driving sin struggles in our life. In Proverbs 4. 23, Guard your heart for everything you do flows from it. We have to look at what has happened to our heart, how we've been wounded and what's flowing out of that. And so this college student grew up hearing the same trite answers that I grew up in, surrounded by Christians.

Some things never change.

Yes.

Yeah.

Some things never change. And so it's, it's a, I've wondered, is this just a modern church issue or is it a global thing? I was having breakfast with Henry Cloud. Almost didn't say the name because I don't want to name drop or shame drop. So many times we, we mention people's names because we makes us feel better. But he was, he told me, no, this has been going on since the day of Jesus. Jesus said to the Pharisees, you search the scriptures but know not me. You know, we are always over spiritualizing things. So many of us love the Bible more than we love God. And, and we. It's been going on for thousands of years. And so Gen Z is growing up experiencing that. Another thing is they're growing up experiencing this belief that all you need is Jesus. Yes, all you need is Jesus for salvation. But God designed you for relationships. It's okay to go to a doctor when you're sick. It's okay. It's okay to go to a therapist. It's many of them don't believe that I We run these ads on the resolution movement called where the ad says, it's okay, it's normal to have Jesus and a therapist.

I like that.

50, 50. Like millions of people have seen the ad and we get thousands of comments. It's 50. 50. Some people say, no, you don't need a therapist. Jesus is my therapist. All you need is Jesus. Or other people say, no, mental health issues are only caused by demons.

Wow.

And so it's in. Many of these people are young. It's like there's nothing new under the sun. As you said, Nick, some things never change. So I think people just need to continue to have an awareness that you need community. It's okay to see a professional. God's grace comes through many different forms. Yeah, talking to an expert in the field of mental health or porn addiction can really help you. There's the New Testament, mentions one another 100 times. Yes, you need one another. Yes, you just need Jesus, or you need Jesus for life and for forgiveness and salvation. But he looked at Adam in the garden and said, is not good even in this beautiful world before sin entered it. It's not good for man to be alone. You need other people. And we experience trauma and woundedness in life that we need to work through and explore behind our, our issues. So that those concepts I write about and do videos about and I'm continuing to see Gen Z, it's a new concept to so many people when they grow up, if they grow up in the church or even if they don't grow up in the church, even though it's as we know, what God uses to set people free and heal them.

Yeah, yeah. I think in every generation there is a tendency for the ones above it to kind of look down on the younger one with kind of that spirit of criticism or even condemnation, especially for things we don't understand of why are you so passionate about that? Or why don't you have the work ethic like we did or you didn't? You know, I think my generation heard a lot like, well, you didn't live through the Vietnam War like we did. And so you're not tough and we need to toughen you up and, and you kind of get that feeling of like not being good enough and that critical condemning spirit is conveyed in the way people speak about a generation. And I think instead if we look at the next generation and want to be curious and compassionate for the things we don't understand, for this maybe stuff coming out of them, we're like, wow, I've never really thought about that. But you're really wrestling with something rather than me having the spirit of like, well, just don't think that way. Just pray or leave it at the altar or give it to God to be like, well, help me understand where's, you know, what's driving that? What made you feel that way? Where did that come from? Did you have an experience that you could tell me more about so I'd understand what made you maybe have that kind of idea or thought? And that curiosity and compassion, I think invites people into connection, invites them into relationship and an opportunity for really healthy dialogue and community versus just Feeling like, well, we've got the answers. Our generation knows how to do it, and if you would just do it like we did, you'll be okay. And I think then that actually drives Gen Z just to one another. Like, well, my parents or my leaders, my pastors seem out of touch or don't seem to really want to entertain the things that are important to me. So I'll just go back to Google or YouTube and ask my peers, what are they doing? And then we go back to, maybe you're getting voices now that are not actually helpful, but they seem legitimate. And now that Gen Z is being formed by unhealthy voices. So I think wherever we can. Looking to be curious and compassionate, to invite people into conversation, to invite them into connection. And now I'm just running with the Cs because the alliteration is just working. But I'll stop. But I just, it occurs to me and I see it in myself, like, I have to make that choice too. Because I can feel critical, like, you know, of my kids, sometimes things they'll bring up, like, okay, that doesn't matter, get over it. Like, oh, that's not going to be a helpful response to them. How could I be compassionate and curious to my own children and start there in my own life?

Well, Nick, just to double down before we move on, I had like an hour and a half phone call one time with a group leader. And again, not to name or shame. I won't bring this person's name up. And it was like I could have put myself on mute. Like, I'm, like, I'm not having this conversation. Like you're having this conversation. Yes. But at the end he said, john, if I've learned anything in my recovery journey, it's that it's a movement of curiosity, compassion and courage. And those three Cs have stuck with me for the last three years because there was a Pharisee in me growing up. I don't know about you guys, but there was at least in me. And not to blame mom and dad, but just that, like, I want to do right, right? The perfection or the performance mass that I was so quick to grab. And I think for me, that performative nature actually kept me from seeing the wounds and the pain that I was then going back to medicate and medicate and medicate. And it was the curious question of why does that make. Or how does that make sense rather than what's wrong with me? To your point, the pharisee or the judge says that's wrong. And it just shuts down conversation. But curiosity says no. Why does that make sense? And that has been such a dynamic movement in my journey of recovery, from judgment to compassion, of I will suffer with myself first and foremost, but then on behalf of others as well. And so I like the Cs. I think they're really important. And I think it takes a courageous person to be curious enough and compassionate enough to then do something. And then to Ben, just to say again, I just see you as an older brother or a role model in this space who is modeling curiosity, compassion and courage for a generation. So just thank you. Like I know I've said that already, but just to say thank you, because there are so many competing voices and I would say false teachers on Instagram or TikTok, I mean you can find whatever you want. And they're reinterpreting Leviticus or they're doing all these things. Like my roommates say that all the time. They're like, everybody's got a Greek degree or Hebrew degree now and they're reinterpreting scripture and it's just to say, no, we need voices of truth, like who will tell the truer story, who will be the loudest voice? Because there's a lot of voices competing in this space.

Yeah, usually we wait to the end of the episode to thank the guest, but Ben, we're just covering it all throughout the episode. Thanks, John. We've talked a little bit about parents and I want to lean into that with one more question here because I think a lot of our listeners have kids in this age group and they may feel like they're too late or they've already messed up how they parented because of their own addictive struggle, or they felt disengaged, or they realize, wow, I did not help my kids create connection, community. What advice or encouragement would you give to these parents? And what impact can they have? Especially if maybe their kids are already into adulthood? Do they still have influence in their kids lives?

Definitely. I mean, reconciliation is a beautiful thing. And forgiveness and reconciliation are different. We're commanded to forgive everybody, but reconciliation takes both the offended and the offended offense or the offended and the offender to. Or it takes the offender repenting and having sorrow over what, what they did and the offendee receiving that. And so no matter the extent of things done, you know, I think of the scripture that says God gives grace to the humble. And so if we have made mistakes, if we're willing to bow our knee and to get over our pride and to say, yes, I was wrong and apologize and seek to, you know, make amends. So much healing happens when, when that, when that takes place. And I've seen that happen so many times in families and so many adult children desire that. They're like, man, if only my parents would apologize, you know, for their, for their mistakes, it would mean the world and so much healing can happen. And so despite this is kind of how I think of it. You know, while so much damage can happen in relationships, right, we're hurt experientially in relationships. Like Dr. Ted has talked about for years, we're healed experientially in relationships. And so despite the level of things done, those wounds can be healed significantly when we apologize and move towards the people that we have offended.

Ben, can I just name a moment from my story where that happened between a parent and, like, me as a Gen Z, one of the most painful moments. And my mom and my dad are very aware of this moment. We've processed this. This isn't something I'm just airing on the podcast for the first time, but the moment of exposure just led to a lot of shame. My mom was a part of that story. And so the woundedness kind of got tied to my mom. And in going through pillar three, lesson one about your top 10 worst moments, I then identified that as one of the worst moments. And later on in the pillars, you talk about big T and little T trauma. And it was about seven months into group that I was on a phone call with my mom and I was teaching her about trauma. This is what big T is. This is what little T is. Wax lax, everything in between. And she paused and said, john, is there any trauma that I've caused in your life? And I lost my breath in my Dallas apartment. I didn't know what to do. Like, it felt like I had got the wind knocked out of me in a football game. I'm like, that's probably trauma. And I just remember saying, mom, I love you and I've forgiven you, but I love you enough to walk you back into the moment, because I think you deserve to know. And so I walked her back through that moment of exposure and some of the pain and the shame I had carried. And as I got done sharing it, she simply said, john, will you forgive me? I had no idea what I was doing, like the healing, like the nine year old me, like getting a chance to, like, live again. And my mom just so beautifully, humbly owning her story and asking for forgiveness and then beginning to share more of why that made sense to her in her moment, and me getting to be invited into intimacy with her of, oh, that's why she responded like that. And realizing that my mom had been hurt, and then from her own wounds, like, she had hurt me, which led so much pain. But in this moment, like generational curse quite literally being broken and generational blessing continuing. And I would say that my mom has been one of the biggest advocates in my story of healing. So for any parents who are listening, just to say, you have such an important and powerful role in your kids, don't give up. Like, keep pushing, keep praying, keep hoping, keep leaning in your humility, your listening, your willingness to push into forgiveness could be one of the most healing journey or moments in their journey. I know that it has been for me, one.

It speaks to what I think is a reality that the human heart craves connection and forgiveness, and reconciliation opens the door to that connection. And so as a parent, I think owning our stuff and that humility, I was thinking about. Ernest Hemingway tells a story of a father who wrote an ad in the paper to his son. It says, paco, all is forgiven. Please come home. Love, dad. And then it gives a place to meet. And in the story, the next day, 800 Pacos show up for a dad who's ready to forgive. And while that's not a true story, I think it resonates with our heartstrings because we realize, like, that would be such a powerful message for an estranged child to hear and to show up going, oh, there's an open door here that I thought was closed. And unfortunately, in the story, the one Paco that it was directed to didn't show up. And it goes on to kind of tell his tragic story. But I think that, again, just reveals there's something in all of us that longs for that. And so even if you feel maybe very distant from a child or like you've tried and there hasn't been a lot of conversation lately, like, that offer of forgiveness and asking for forgiveness I think can open unexpected doors. And so, yeah, I just would echo that. Like, don't give up. Don't grow weary of doing good. For at the right time, we'll reap a harvest, keep praying and keep looking to be the one that goes first and says, would you forgive me for the ways that I have hurt you, for the ways that I've brought pain into your life? I want to start afresh. So, yeah, I think those are some key things we could be doing as parents at any age with our children.

Yeah. And Ben, like, We said, we're so grateful. This is the third time now for having you on. And just before we close, we'd love to invite you if there's any words of encouragement that you would have for our audience or thinking about Gen Z. Is there any way that you'd like to end this conversation regarding healthy sexuality for the next generation?

Yeah, I would say just to show up in people's lives. It's like you think about your own story and the significant moments and the people that were there and who showed up for you. And so whether it's so knowing the stats that I shared early and how much hurts and pain this generation is experiencing, think about the healing that can happen and what God might do through you, reaching a young person and how that might change future generations. I think about when Jesus called the disciples. You know, scholars say that they were like early teenagers. You know, they were, they were the. The next generation are the leaders of today that are shaping culture in so many different ways. I think about how so many ministries like Parachurch Ministries, the Navigators, Campus Crusade, Young Life started by young people.

Yeah.

Pastors, young people, you know, going into seminary. And so what might God do through you if you step out in faith? Even if there's no Gen Zers in your life, if you start to befriend them or volunteer in the youth group, if you're involved in. If there's young people in your church and the healing that can, that can happen. Start a living free group. Come on, you know, or unraveled group.

Yes.

It would be so powerful. The stories of transformation that can come through that.

Yeah, yeah. I was thinking about, Ben, the numbers you, you stated about how many Gen Zers are struggling with. Anxiety, depression, fear, mental illness. And the way that can present itself is often avoidance or anger or disillusionment. And maybe we're seeing kind of that side of it and feeling like, man, what's up with this person or this group? And I don't know what to do with them. But if we can keep in mind that maybe what's driving that is a whole lot of hurt and confusion and fear, then we can have that compassion that moves towards rather than moving against. And so if there's parts of Gen Z that you're frustrated by, well, like maybe try to see through that to what they're dealing with. And I think God could use us to raise them up. And like you said, they're the future and they're innovative. They think outside the box. And we need to really create space for Them to be seen and known and valued and to really find their identity in Christ. And so I hope the conversation's been helpful for a lot of people in that regard. How about you, John? Any last thoughts?

I just think Gen Z is not lost. They're not going to hell in a hand basket, to use your phrase earlier, Ben. And I think, yeah, the more that we can show up and engage their stories, be present. I think there was a quote a friend recently shared, just like the most loving thing we can do is be present with somebody and to be attentive to their story or to like, actually care. And so, yeah, if there's, if you find yourself in a generation that is not Gen Z, whether that's Gen X or being a boomer, I would just ask what would it look like for you to move towards somebody who's in Gen Z, in your life in a compassionate, curious way, which takes courage? Maybe that's intentionally grabbing a meal, grabbing a coffee, I don't know. I just know that this generation, as I see among my own friends, is desperate for mentors and is desperate for wisdom. I think there's an intergenerational magnetism right now that is really beautiful. In about two weeks, we'll have a chance to have young adults gather and invite old people to our young adult space simply to pray. That's literally what Gen Z is desiring right now here in Portland is an older generation that comes alongside and prays for them and that we might pray for them as well. And so I just say, if there's any fear, everything you want. To quote one of our friends named Mike, everything you want is on the other side of fear. Push through it. They desire this, and I think they'd be really grateful for your interaction in their life.

Well, Ben, this has been so good. Every generation has some distinctives and we've unpacked a lot of that today for Gen Z. And at the same time, every person, no matter the age, is still a person made in the image of God and navigating some level of sexual brokenness in this world so we don't have to be afraid or shrink back just because some of it is different than our generation. God can use us, our story and our heart to be a blessing and an influence. And I hope today's conversation has encouraged many of our listeners to do just that. So, Ben, for the fourth time, thanks for joining us. How can our listeners keep up with you and what you're doing?

Resolutionmovement.org where we have links all our social media free resources youversion plans on there and then I'm on social media. Nvbennett would love to connect with you there. Shoot me a message. I try and respond to all my direct messages on Instagram.

Yeah awesome. And we'll make sure that is in the show notes and if you're a fan of the Pure Desire content here, please subscribe, share it with somebody and write us a review. It helps other people find healing message. If you want more information about our groups, resources or counseling, go to PureDesire.org and finally, Journey on My friends, you are not alone.