377 - Launching Pure Desire Group: A Church Success Story

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Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is episode 377 and here joining me is a guest co host, Mr. Rodney Wright, a part of our advancement and donations team. Rodney, welcome back to the podcast. Good to see you.

Thank you, Nick. It's great to be with you today. I'm very excited about this podcast today. I love it when pastors get engaged to help their congregations. And this is a great story and I think everyone's going to really enjoy meeting Ryan Oletsky.

Yeah, I love when you're on Rodney. I feel like we're always playing a little game of where in the world is Rodney? Right. Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego? So you've joined us from Coeur d', Alene, Mexico. Various places in between where today, down by Temecula, California.

Beautiful country down here. I had a lot of family reunions down here, Lake Elsinore. I got a cousin's wedding tonight and I'm excited to be down here to be part of it. But yeah, love what's happening here. And I don't wherever in the world I am, I'll always be a part of these because it's exciting to get voices to share.

Yeah. Well, a shout out to all of our California friends listening to the podcast today. You can have a kindred spirit with Rodney as he mentions places you probably know of and I don't. But as Rodney mentioned today, our guest is a pastor in Spokane, Washington. His church is called True Hope and his name is Ryan Aletsky. He moved to Spokane 10 years ago to plant the church and he and his team have seen that church flourish to now over 1200 people in attendance. Last year they saw the need to address sexual wholeness in their church and connected with Rodney and Tracy Wright to do our parent training, how to talk with your kids about sex. That event became a real snowball for the church that has now led to over 200 people going through the Sexual Integrity 101 course. And they have five groups actively meeting in the church around Pure Desire group resources. So how did that happen? Well, that's what we're here to talk about today. Rodney, what do you think people will get out of today's episode?

Well, I think it's real encouraging. I think you're going to want to share this with your pastor, let your pastor hear this podcast and I think it would really encourage him that there's a pathway and a framework, there's ways you can do this that wouldn't maybe be the best way to do it. And then you can learn from some of those and try new ways. That we found have been really fruitful. And I think Ryan and his congregation didn't give up, but they continued to say, hey, what else could we do to help this problem? It's not going away. And I think the approach that they did of starting with the education was just wonderful. And Ryan is a courageous leader and I just have a lot of respect for him.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think if you are a pastor or leader that's listening today. Thank you for taking time out of your day to consider this content. We hope that it's an encouragement for you and in all areas related to the church. We always want to say to a pastor or leader, we are so pro church. We believe at the heart of this struggle around sexual brokenness and pornography, that the church is the key player, that the place of healing, the safe community people need is the local church. But many of us have not been trained or equipped or been given paradigms how to do that well. And so it can feel overwhelming. It can feel like a difficult topic. And I hope that this conversation may just level the playing field a little bit. Kind of like you were saying, Rodney, to make this doable and give someone a vision to say, you know what we could do that we don't have to have all the answers, we don't have to be the expert to do something. We can start taking some next steps like True Hope Church did. And if that's an outcome, if this whole area feels a little more manageable for a church, then it will have been well worth the time. And yeah, just looking forward to having people engage with this conversation.

Yeah, you're going to enjoy this podcast today. It's a good one.

So this topic is so crucial for churches to face and this episode will provide encouragement that, yes, we can do this. So here is our conversation with Ryan Olesky about launching Pure Desire groups and their story of success. Ryan, thank you so much for joining us today. It's good to have you.

Absolutely. Good to be here. Thanks for the invite.

Well, as a first time guest to the show, would you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, your family, who you do life with, and a little bit about the church that you're a part of?

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm 41 years old. I'm born and raised in the Pacific Northwest. Life began In Olympia. Don't remember a lot of that, but grew up in Sammamish area, so east side of Seattle, and grew up in a pastor's home. So been in and around and passionate about the church my whole life. When I was 15, my family moved from Sammamish to central Washington to Yakima, and that's where I met my wife. Graduated high school from West Valley High School, did some community college and then also did Global University, which is where I got my Bible and theology training. And I actually started in ministry as a pastor pretty young. At 19, I was an associate youth pastor at the church there my dad was pastoring and in that journey met my wife. We got married, had three of our four kids in Yakima. So that would be my oldest, Braden, who's 17, my next oldest Emma, my daughter who's 16. And then I have a 14 year old son, Jackson, and an 11 year old son, Liam. And Liam is the one that was born here in spokane because about 13 years ago we felt God called us to plant a church. And so my wife and I and like 16 other crazy friends packed up our lives and moved to Spokane, Washington from Yakima, which is central Washington, and started the church I now pastor, which is True Hope Church right here in Spokane.

Yeah, I really appreciate you being a part of the four Kids club, not like those crazy people that stop at three. Rodney, over to you and your three.

Well, listen, three is three is all I can handle. So I told the Lord, you know, you said you wouldn't give me more than I can handle. I'm at max capacity here at 3. But it is fun, it is fun to have Ryan on the podcast. I've known his family for a long time and just so enjoyed our friendship over the last five years, maybe seven years especially. And it's just been, what a joy to have you here, Ryan. Thank you for your time today.

Yeah, thank you. Your story about three and four kids just real quick makes me think when we had three, I told my wife he went out on a date and I said, I'm done, I'm done. I don't want any more kids. I'm at capacity. And my wife looked at me and kind of nodded and then he kind of boldly looked at me and said, well, maybe God wants to grow you. I think we need a fourth. And I, I said to her, I said, well, I'm scheduling a vasectomy. And she said, that's fine, go ahead and do that. And so we scheduled a vasectomy. And we got pregnant in the next six weeks before that vasectomy. And of course, there's a story of our fourth Liam, John, who's a great gift to our life. But funny story, I thought I was done at 3, but apparently my wife's right, has a direct line to the Holy Spirit. God wants to grow me. And so that's been happening now for about 12 years.

I thought you were going to say that night, she said, well, I'm pregnant, so we're going to have four.

No, she was strategic. She knew that there was going to be more time for that to occur, even if I scheduled the vasectomy. So it was what it was.

It proves my point, Ryan and Nick, that women control this way more than men. So, you know, it is what it is.

Yeah, for sure.

Ryan, let me say, when did you, as a leader, begin to see the need to address the topic of sexual wholeness in your church? I know this is a tough area for churches to kind of lean into. And what gave you the desire, the motivation to kind of lean forward in this? Like, we got to start this conversation and. And I feel prompted. And how'd that come about for you?

Yeah, that's a good question. I was, you know, trying to think about this. I feel like. I feel like it crescendoed with the church plant, so. So we started True Up Church, you know, the small band of friends, like, 12, 13 years ago. And I think I had to kind of decide a lot of things with the launching of a church. You know, when you start a church, you're passionate about the mission of God and you want to see the gospel at work in a new place, a new community, and kind of write your own story in that regard. And we were captivated by all those things. But as it pertained to, like, real life struggles and issues, I think we had to decide early on, like, are we going to be a church, and am I going to be a pastor that wants to really tackle some of the real tough stuff that's in our lives, or do we want to be skillfully avoiding them? And I don't think any pastor wants to skillfully avoid this subject, but I do think there's often these crossroads we hit where we know, okay, we can engage in a pretty, you know, forthright conversation about really important stuff. So early on in the church, I wanted to do that. I wanted to tack us towards a real, honest and vulnerable approach to lots of real life issues. One thing I remember doing is we talked through a teaching series early on in the Church was called the COVID Up. That was. It was a topical series. It was, like, five weeks. It was based on the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden and the leaves they used to cover themselves. And of course, when we announced this to the church, you know, teaching a new series called the COVID up, everyone's like, okay, I wonder if I'm gonna be in church that day. And the subtitle was Moving from Hiding to Healing. And we talked about more than sexuality, but it was about, like, moving from addiction to sobriety in general. We talked about substance abuse. We talked about pornography. We talked about sexual health. And I think that probably kicked off the journey for us as a young church plant of like, okay, this is kind of in our DNA. Like, this is something we want to go after. And to be frank, at that time, I think that's kind of all I knew. I knew, like, I want to talk about this, but I didn't really know, like, how helpful are we going to be with people? I'm not sure. What do we do next? I don't know. I do know from that what stirred up was us referring a Handful of People to Conquer series. So we were aware of that resource, and we had used that. But I think that was kind of one of the things that led me to, you know, wanting to address this topic. I think another part of it for me is just my own story. I think growing up in a pastor's home, I was super grateful for the heritage and foundation my parents gave me. However, I don't think healthy sexuality was a really successful conversation in our home. I remember a really uncomfortable birds and bees conversation with my dad in his office.

Sure.

I mean, come on in here, Ryan. And so there was a book we went through, and it was. But it was more about anatomy and. And sex and where babies come from. We did not get to the conversation, at least father and son, about stewarding my own sexuality, as I would be awakening and figuring out what that was. And so I think I had, you know, and later in my life, I don't remember the exact age. I want to say it was late teens, 18, 19. I came to my dad just saying, hey, I want to talk about this area of life, and I need help. And I remember him feeling like, oh, man, I wanted to talk to you about this. Thanks for coming to me. And I kind of just triggered in my mind, like, man, you know, I'm not bitter at all about my parents or my childhood or my upbringing, but I want to move the ball down the field.

Yeah, there you go.

And so I just. I just felt like, okay, we can do better. I'm planning a church. Let's talk about this. Let's have this more on the table in church life than it was for me growing up. And I think that'll be good. So that's probably when I decided, like, we're going to have to lean into this. And I think the other thing I'd say is couple that with then the response of the people in the church. Right. When you take that courageous move as a leader, the people in your church do come forward. They say, thank you for this. Yeah, I've not had any.

Anyone.

We've preached on sexuality and sexual sobriety and God's design for sexuality and the distortions of sexuality probably four or five times, like, series over the last decade. And I've never had someone in our church come forward and say, why are you talking about this? Never? It's actually the opposite. It's kind of like, hey, thanks for this. And I think then there's confidence that grows with that, like, okay, we can keep talking about this. And it's taken us time. At first it was like I said, we talked about it, but we didn't have great tools. And I can get into more of that here with some of our questions. But now I think we're doing a lot better at creating a culture that'll talk about it, but now actually having tools and that's directly connected to pure desire.

And I just would say, Ryan, thank you for having the courage to say, I'm grateful for what I was handed in my faith, but let's set aside what wasn't working and let's embrace maybe moving forward. And just thank you for. I think the younger generation just craves, how do we integrate our faith in human sexuality and a whole list of other issues. And so thank you for just having the courage to take steps toward that direction and create an authentic community of faith where, hey, we can wrestle with these things and grow together.

Yeah. Well, I love, Ryan, that your story of starting the church is to say, we want to minister to people where they're at. What is it that people are struggling with? And I think that's the nature of the gospel, that it needs to meet people, and it does meet people in their place of need. And I think sometimes as churches, we can be guilty of. We want to preach the gospel in kind of a general way, and that's powerful. And we hope it kind of sifts down to some of those nitty, gritty things, but we don't really know how to talk about them. And so we. We just kind of keep it general of Christ's love and forgiveness and all that is awesome and true, but it can leave people wondering, like, well, what about in my sexuality? What about in these areas of lust or fantasy or brokenness or abuse or pain? Like, where does the gospel really meet me there? And yet we know from the stats that are coming out from Barna that more people are struggling than ever before. A majority of people in the church say that pornography is a part of their experience and something they're dealing with. And so if this is a place where people are struggling, we've got to be able to say, and the gospel meets you there. And the power of Christ is available there in a specific way. And it kind of relates, too, to the founding of Pure Desire, that I don't believe. Ted Roberts initially set out to launch Pure Desire Ministries in his church, but he came to Gresham and to the Portland area, which some may know per capita has a really, really high number of strip clubs and gentlemen clubs. And as he would meet with men in the church, and he was always kind of about the pastoral counseling, and he would start to drill down into their story, just over and over and over. He would hear their story of sexual brokenness and shame and their struggles with pornography or going to clubs. And he realized, if I want to pastor my church, well, I have to somehow pastor them in this area. And he acknowledged I knew very little about it. And so I went and learned and studied. And then he writes a book. You know, it became a huge part of their ministry. But the reason was because they saw the need. They saw that people were really, in a sense, dying on the vine. They're saying, where does my faith integrate into this piece that we never talk about? And then that led to the birth of Pure Desire ministry. So, yeah, I just appreciate the way you said, where are people at? What do they struggle with? And we want to make sure our church is meeting them there. So I know early in your story, Ryan, you guys had taken some steps towards addressing this topic that didn't initially take off, that didn't go so well. And I think a lot of churches maybe fear that of, well, if we broach this topic and try to start a group or launch the ministry, like, what if it doesn't work? Or no one comes or goes poorly? And so just talk us through that a little bit. Can you tell us about what you guys tried and what you learned from that initial attempt?

Yeah. So I think we had a culture where, at least from the front, we were willing to talk about this, and it wasn't all the time. And then, you know, as we continue to grow as a church, we started like quarterly men's breakfast. And it was in that environment, we're like, you know, we should talk about this. And we showed a video and tried to launch the Conquer series through a men's breakfast. We had about like 100 guys coming to a men's breakfast. And so we showed a video and it was just kind of like, hey, are you addicted to porn? Like, you need to get help. Sign up over here. And we had like three guys sign up. And obviously we know that statistically that doesn't match reality. And it just. It just didn't. Didn't work. I think that we had a culture. We were willing to talk about this, but didn't have a culture yet where people felt safe to go somewhere and get help. And so I think the thing we learned from that was, and I remember talking with Rodney specifically about this, because this kind of overlapped when Rodney, you and I reconnected and you were talking about what you're doing with pure desire and the writing of the book and all that. And I was like, well, we tried to launch like a Conquer series for men. And the way we promoted it was like this. And Rodney was like, like, who's gonna sign up for that dude? And so the.

The lesson, it's like, been there, done that, Ryan. You know, been there, done that.

Yeah. The lesson learned was like, oh, man, we got to lower the shame way more. We got to talk about this. I think from a holistic perspective that sexuality is a God designed thing and it's good, but it's distorted. And a lot of us, you know, have distortions of that presently in our life. And all of us can relate to this. There's no one that this doesn't relate to. And we didn't have that language in that culture built out yet. So we had a culture of courage, I think, but we didn't have a culture of wisdom around this conversation. And so that is where I think we. We, you know, we slipped up. We tried. It wasn't like a failure per se, but it was like, yeah, that didn't. That didn't hit the mark like we needed it to.

Yeah. And, Ryan, thank you for just making it a learning opportunity. Not ashaming, but like, we're just trying to figure things out, you know?

Yeah.

And thank you for keep growing in that regard, you know, yeah, yeah, so we did.

After that, what happened was we. We, you know, we tried to launch that class, and it was struggling. It wasn't working very well. And Conquer. Conquer was a resource we had available. If we had it, we could. We could check it out to people. We referenced it for. People said, go, go get this. But again, it still felt like, okay, we'll talk about this. But there's not really a thriving culture of actually growing with. In grace and getting help and hope in this area. And so I ran into Rodney at a ministry event, and he mentioned that he was transitioning and going to pure desire and was writing a book called how to talk to your kids about sex. And essentially I. We. We started talking about that, and I think even some of my own story he put in his book, you know, and then later asked me for permission about it.

Better to ask forgiveness than permission, huh?

Yeah, but, yeah, it was. It was funny story about me talking to my dad, you know, when I was awakening sexually. And anyway, whatever. It's in the. It's in the book. So bottom line is. And it was. It was awkward, but bottom line was he was telling me that he's writing this book and that he has a seminar like. Like the training that he and his wife Tracy did where they would come to churches and each on sexual wholeness, but then invite everyone back to a parent training that night. And, you know, we're a growing church, lots of young families. It totally fit with, like, what we were. So we invited them to come out, and he taught on a Sunday morning, was very well received, you know, had his book available. And then, I don't know, Rodney, over 100 people came back that evening. Yeah, I think that was the. That was the breakthrough moment, to be honest. That was the breakthrough moment culturally for us as a church where I think it was like, okay, this is something that we can talk about. This is something we need to grow in. And what happened there was seeds were planted that over the next year or two would lead towards handfuls of men in the church coming to meet with me saying, we've got to launch pure desire groups. We've got to figure out a way to do this. And so that that connected again with a teaching series, and we can get into that, but of how we further were able to, I think, make this more accessible and lower that shame and invite everyone to come and get educated and learn about this. And then the healing process begins.

Yeah, right.

That's kind of my. That's kind of. My next question is, why do you feel like, I remember when Tracy and I came, and I remember, you know, the service and the parent training and all of that. Why do you feel like that was received so well? I mean, and what preparation do you feel like you guys did in leadership, you know, to. To kind of make this a win for you guys?

Yeah, I think. I think part it's you. I think part of it's your story. I think part of it's you speaking the morning of. I think that was super helpful. I think you became a trusted voice to people of just where you've been in your own journey. And I think also just making it an event that people knew. You're not necessarily raising your hand saying, I'm a sexual addict. I have unwanted sexual behavior. I need to go to this. It was like, hey, this is a sexualized culture in a sexualized world, and all of us can relate to this. And whether you're a grandparent parent or a teenager, let's help our kids.

Yeah, it is.

And so that what that does is it allows everyone to opt in. And I just think that, you know, we wish the culture was different, but the reality is not. Everyone's ready to opt in and say, yeah, I am a sexual being, and we need to have conversations about sexual health. And so that enabled that. And I think that's why it was successful. I mean, practically. Yeah, we had round tables, and I think the environment was friendly, and I think it was accessible. And there's kids ministry and all the things logistically for pastors to think about. Don't make this like a, you know, a dark, shadowy event with no kids support and people sign up on a covert list somewhere. I think it was, like, public, visible, and it was open to everyone and helping everyone realize that all of us have a stake in this. All of us need to care about this. And that really helped us.

Right. You know, Ryan, it's the one statement I can say in church. Sorry, Nick. And where I say, how many agree we should not let porn be the sex educator of our kids. And every hand goes up. Right. Even grandma. She doesn't know what that word means, but she's raising her hand. Doesn't sound good, you know, and you lower the shame. And education, really, I think, is a great way forward to help in this arena.

Yeah.

Yeah. Anyone that's heard Rodney and Tracy speak, or really anyone on our pure desire speaking team, for that matter, it's really this heartbeat to say we want to normalize the conversation. We want to move it from being, you know, that problem that those people have or the few of you to just acknowledge, hey, we're all sexual beings made in the image of God as such, and we've been born into a fallen world that's impacted our sexuality. So we all need to understand, to grow, to learn. And putting it in the category of discipleship or training or education or equipping rather than in a lot of environments, it kind of gets left in the shadowy halls of addiction or, you know, grief support. And those things are appropriate, but it can kind of create this big hurdle of, well, I don't know if I need that. You know, going back to what you said earlier about your kind of false start or the attempt that didn't work, I've talked with a couple of pastors that would say, well, yeah, we tried to start something, but it didn't work. And I'll say, okay, great. Can you tell me a little bit about what you guys did? And, you know, one story was, well, we told people we were starting this class for sex addicts and if that was you, to fill out the welcome card and drop it in the offering plate. And we'd follow up. And I'm like, okay, a lot of problems here. One, just to join the class, I have to be ready to admit I'm a sex addict. Which most people that struggle don't put themselves in that category to begin with. They have to write it visibly on a welcome card, which, by the way, the person sitting next to them or around them in church may have no idea they ever need that class. So that's embarrassing. Then they put the card in the plate and they don't know who all is going to see it and who in the, you know, how many office staff members will see my name on that card. Like, there are so many barriers that you just created. Even if there are a large number of people that really did need the class, signing up for it was just too big of a step, you know. Or I heard another example where the pastor said, well, we had a couple that wanted to host it in their home. And so we just said, hey, if this, you know, if pornography is impacting your marriage, show up at Joe and Julie's house Tuesday nights at 7, and no one showed up. And I'm like, I'm not surprised by that because A, probably a whole bunch of people don't know Joe and Julie. And going to someone, B, going to someone else's personal home that you don't know is. Is difficult. And C, most couples don't know about this. You know, One of the stats that came out in the Barna report is asking people that do struggle with pornography that said, who knows about your struggle? And half of the people, 50% of those looking at pornography said, no one knows about my struggle. So at least half of the people that have this struggle, their spouse doesn't even know yet. So they're not showing up for the group. And even if it is causing an issue in the marriage, it is a really big step to go from, you know, my husband and I arguing about it to my husband and I going to a group with other people. Just the readiness factor there. And so I think in a lot of situations, it is that kind of first step can feel very embarrassing or shameful or it's like there's this flashing red light of, you know, this is the porn addict class, and if you walk through the door, you must have a problem. And that's just not now. Eventually, there may come a point in a process where someone will acknowledge, man, I've got a pretty deep struggle, and the help I need is significant. But where that gets acknowledged has to be in a very safe, confidential, private kind of manner, which isn't the best starting place usually for a church to launch a ministry. And so I just see so much wisdom and value in what you guys did to say, hey, this is for parents. We want to come and equip all of our parents. And then within that training, as I know what Rodney and Tracy do so well, they're able to say that, hey, if you want to help your kids, one of the best things you can do is to face your own story, is to help yourself. And then, appropriately, you guys provided an opportunity to take that next step, which I know in some of your story as a church, was to offer Pure Desire's introductory video series, sexual integrity 101. So I think that was the next phase for your church. You did a sermon series and offered sexual integrity 101, and you guys had quite a turnout. So how many people signed up? Did you expect that? And then how did you do a training like this with so many people in the room? How did it work?

Yeah, that's awesome. So, yeah, that's what happened. So essentially after that, you know, parent training helped us, I think, move the ball down the field further. And then I had someone come and meet with me and say, hey, like, we've really got to do SI101. And I'm like, great, let's combine it with a teaching series. We were teaching through the book of Genesis, so we were Going to be in Genesis 2. So we just mapped out this whole kind of focus on healthy sexuality for three weeks from the pulpit as far as teaching. And then we also had a very brave couple in our church film a testimony, and they just shared their story. And so I was able to talk about this, have them share the story, and then give people a next step. Hey, sign up for SI101. And again, we used similar language to how to talk to your kids about sex. It was like, look, this is the kind of thing that all of us are welcome to. To learn, to educate, to develop more, understand. And I just kept, I think, in that lane. And so, yeah, we had a tremendous response. We had over 120 people sign up and show up to SI101. That was shocking.

What percentage of your church would that have been at that time, Ryan, at that time?

That private? Probably 20% of the church.

Yeah. Coming to one class. That's pretty impressive.

Yeah, it was in our main auditorium. Roundtables use the video. We, you know, we also knew at this point we were getting enough traction. We are. We were. The end game of SI101 was we're going to launch a pure Desire groups out of this to be the sustaining support, you know, for help and hope for people in our church in the area of sexual sobriety. So that was what we're able to do. That class was people stuck through it. You know, there's always some attrition in class, but I think even like six or seven weeks later, like, 75 people were still showing up for it. And we were able to launch Pure Desire groups from that. That started, I think, with just two groups, a men's and a woman's group. So we felt like that was our area to improve. Like, the SI class was great, but we had a small initial, you know, launch into Pure Desire groups. But then we did it again the next year, made some tweaks, and now I have like, five or six different Pure Desire groups meeting consistently with, you know, up to a dozen people in each of them. So that. That's been excellent, an excellent resource, an excellent source of hope and healing for people in our church.

Ryan, I like that you. You. You're kind of taking the resource of pure Desire and you're using it that best serves your community. Like, I know you did it, like, you know, Tuesday nights or whatever for five weeks or eight weeks and. But I also know you did it on just a weekend. Like, you just had a. A weekend gathering. A lot of people came for the weekend Went through the whole series and then out of that launch. So just respecting people's time and.

Yeah, yeah, the first. The first one was, like, six weeks, and then we tried it the next year or the next season, and we did it like a conference. We kind of, like, did it on a Friday night and Saturday and had food and tried to kind of. Because, again, our goal was, hey, we probably aren't going to get the same buckshot, you know, everyone coming as that first launch, but we really want to get people into groups. That's. That's really the end game. And so, yeah, that was a successful, I think, adjustment and helping it fit for us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ryan, I want to go back to something you said there, that in that kind of first launch of sexual integrity 101, you had a couple share their testimony. And I think that is such a powerful moment, because when a congregation, a church community, sees another couple either on stage or on screen, they're sharing their story without shame, without fear, and in a way where they're being affirmed by church leadership, I think it communicates a number of things to a church that says, okay, our leadership really is serious about addressing this. They still seem to like this couple that went through this process. They didn't get blacklisted or somehow ostracized from the church. And there's hope. Like, I'm hearing about life change. And so I'm curious to have you talk about that a little more, because I think for some leaders, they're saying, boy, that would be great, but how do I find that couple or work with them, or what do we say or not say? So maybe just speak to that a little bit. Like, how did you get this couple's testimony? Why were they willing to share? And how, as a team, did you guys maybe craft that story in a way that you felt was appropriate? Because that's the other piece of it. Like, there's parts of this kind of story that you don't share with everybody. So when you share this story, the whole congregation, you have to be kind of thoughtful. So how did you guys navigate some of those issues with that initial testimony in this area?

Yeah, I think that's. Yeah, I think it's a few things. I think, again, going back to the whole journey for us, I think there's a movement towards a culture that was courageous, that had already been established. So what I'd encourage a pastor to do, if they're like, okay, I don't have that story. You got to start somewhere, like, with your story, with teaching on this you have to begin to be the tip of the spear somehow. And I think if you do that, God will provide. There's too many people who have been working through this, are working through this, and are already on some level of sobriety on the other side of it in our churches. They will come find you. They will. I the way I got these stories, I had three different individuals who over this series of time took me to coffee, lunch and wanted to share about their area of sexual healing and how God brought redemption about in their life. And so that was what happened there. This individual said, hey, this is my story. They shared that with me and said, hey. They mentioned directly that it started at how to talk to your kids about sex. And the direct thing that hit them was, I want to help my kids and I'm having kids and I'm having more kids and I need to do this. But I got to work through my story. And then that led to, man, we need more support here. And I'm willing. So it was a courageous move by this individual, this couple. But I think the way that we get those stories, if we don't have them is we as leaders, we have to set the tone here and open up our lives appropriately and be courageous to teach on this subject. You know, one of the things I'm just, I'm passionate about this area. I love teaching. That's a passion for me. Teaching scripture, teaching theology in a way that connects to everyday life. We've got to talk about God's design for sex. Like that needs to be in every pastors preaching plan on some rotational basis. And I don't, I don't even think it's like, you need to preach on porn. No, you need to preach on sex. And then you're of course going to talk about porn and other distortions and disruptions of this area. So I think pastors feel the burden of like, oh, no, I've got to be the police guy. It's like, no, you need to be the champion for truth and beauty and. And that includes sexuality. Amen.

Yeah.

And health. And then of course, I promise you, here's what will happen. Yeah, we'll call you for coffee. They will set up a lunch date with you and they'll talk to you. So, Nick, that's how I would encourage a pastor that feels like I don't know where to get those stories. I'd say, well, teach on it. And maybe that's a big step for some pastors. Okay. Podcast about it, blog about it, have a conversation with a few trusted men or people in your church about it, you got to get the ball rolling.

And Ryan, I would. I would even double down with that to say, if you're a pastor and you haven't really owned or know how to work through your own history or your own story, pure desire has groups. Get in a group and work through your own story. And I think, like, you know, what's most personal is most universal, and what's most universal is most personal. So we're all humans, we're all sexual beings. But in ministry with pastors, sometimes that's been one of the things we don't. We don't want to be the tip of the spear. We don't want to own our own story. And I know when I did it for our congregation in Coeur d', Alene, when I owned my story and didn't have shame around any longer, but said, hey, here was my journey growing up as a kid. Here's when I got help in my 20s through a therapist and just didn't live in shame any longer of that, you know, you could write a brave new ending. And so I just would say to pastors, you're. You could be more of the key than you realize because you're establishing culture. And this is where I just want to say, I want to brag on you and your wife just a bit here in a good way. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for owning your story at whatever level and your journey, and then just, you know, offering it as a sense of, hey, this is life that we navigate, you know, and providing a culture where it's safe for other couples to get on stage and do the same, you know, and offer that as a culture of, we're healing and we're growing here. That's what we're about. And that's the gospel, you know, came to help us with the hell we're living in here. And now, I like to say, yeah.

So, yeah, I love that story has a way of, you know, it slides behind the wall of our defenses, where when we just hear theological truth or things, you know, expository preaching, which can be great and is all. Has a place, there are kind of some emotional defenses of. Well, I don't think that applies to me. Or if they knew my story, they'd reject me, or I've kind of put on this front for so long that if I now reveal I have a problem, people won't support my journey. And a testimony of someone else, a story of healing kind of slides past some of those emotional defenses. We put up and engages with people. And so I think there's incredible wisdom in using testimony as often as possible. And if it's not your story as a pastor, you don't see it in your church. That may be an opportunity to bring in someone from the Pure Desire speaking team or another, a pastor that, you know, this is their story and they share about like. Like there are other guests that you could say, hey, we're. We're inviting so and so to share their story today because we want this to become a story in our church and. And they've seen it in their life or in their story. And we just want you to hear what God does that could be well worth considering.

Yeah, that's good, Ryan. You've built some really great momentum for your congregation here, and I like that. You know, there's the Conquer series, there's the parent training, there's the SI101. I just like that you're willing to continue to find new tools and resources and keep this conversation going. Not just one and done. Hey, we did that in 19, you know, 2019.

Now we're good.

We launched our church. We did the sex series. Now we're good.

But.

But now you've kind of got some momentum and you. There's a process that you can say, hey, here's the good resource here. We can start on the education level, but if people are stuck, a betrayed spouse or an addictive spouse, there's groups and tools that you can get into. Just talk about, what's that?

What.

How does that feel for you as a pastor? I mean, just kind of like that's got to be like, you know, I don't know how to help you, but I know God wants to help you. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Honestly. Yeah. I think it feels incredible. I think I would just say this.

I think.

I mean, I want to brag on Pure Desire. I think that you guys have done such a good job of making great tools. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, one of the things Nick, you mentioned, like, on our website, we just list Pure Desire as one of our ministries. We're just like, yep, there it is. And you can click on that link and there's like, information about when we're going to have, you know, our. Our si 101 weekend and how to get into the next enrollment of Pure Desire groups. And there's videos that we didn't even make. Like, you guys made a Pure Desire made them, and they're great, and they're available to help kind of people have an awareness that this is a part of our culture. So I think how that makes me feel as a pastor is I feel. I feel good. I feel like we're. We're. We're not silent on this area. We're equipping our people. We're. We're providing tools that are not just hopeful, they're also helpful. And that's what I would say about pure desire. I would say my experience with pure desire is that pure desire is hopeful and helpful. So the shame is lowered. Christ is centered. The gospel is seen in real time, transforming people's lives in an area that's very personal and very often uncomfortable. And that's, I guess, what I'd say, too. Pastors that maybe are shying away from this, they're missing out on seeing the gospel work in real time, as you said. I think, well, there, Nick, it's like, yeah, the gospel preached and discussed through the biblical text is wonderful, but we need to see it, you know, mapped onto our lives and mapped onto people's lived experiences. And so in the area of sexuality, pure desire has been a tremendous partner. And so I just feel. I feel like. I honestly feel like I'm doing 20% of the lifting, and Pure Desire is doing 80% of the lifting. That's. That's how I feel. And that as a pastor, that makes me feel like that's a great partner. It's not because I'm trying to be weak and not do my part. I feel like sometimes we're spread. There's a lot of things pastors are trying to do, and a lot of pastors, I think, unfortunately, feel this burden of, like, well, if I can't do all this from bow to stern, you know, it's like, then I won't do it. Well, no, just find a partner. Find a partner and take the part you need to take, which is to craft culture, empower people with their story, build a culture of grace and honesty and humility, and then just let the truth do what the truth does. And you'll see with great partners like pure desire here in this area, God will do a great work. And we've seen that. And I'm so appreciative for that.

Yeah, well. And Ryan, that's really the way we want it. We want it for a pastor or a leader to feel like, I don't have to do all the work. I don't have to do the heavy lifting, because I know there are areas as a pastor you do have to do the heavy lifting. Like, we can't be there in some of those rooms or environments where you're doing the work of ministry. But in a specified area like this, to know you've got a partner that has the resources, has the tools, has a plan, and if I as a leader can create space for it, I can create, as you said, a healthy culture where this is seen as a viable, valuable ministry in the church and encourage people to pursue it, then that kind of is, that's my work and that makes it doable. And I think a lot of leaders have maybe avoided this topic because it does feel big and scary and the feeling of man, if we start that we better have this whole game plan and no one equipped or trained us so we just do nothing versus saying, you know what, we could take some steps. And because of partners like Pure Desire, it can happen. And I'm thankful we're not the only ministry out there. I think churches could be using other ministry partners as well. But I think the concept is the same of we don't have to do the heavy lifting and that's okay. But we do want to put our people in touch with health and recovery. And I did want to just speak too about finding Pure Desire on your website. Like that is so encouraging to me, but also very rare. And I think churches maybe haven't realized that sometimes in their efforts to keep this quiet, to keep it private and it is a private matter, but to keep confidentiality, like it's very non public. And I've joked about going to church websites that I know have Pure Desire groups and I know they've had them for years and I can't find it mentioned anywhere. Like you have to have some inside handshake to know how to find the groups. And what that inadvertently can do is it reinforces some of that message of this is shameful, this is awkward, this is secretive, we don't know really how to handle it. So we have these hush hush groups, but no one talks about it when really we need the opposite to be true. Just like you guys are seeing that it needs to be public. Because I think especially because of the private, shameful nature of it, a church needs to be willing to really publicly say we have groups, we have a plan, we have a strategy, we want to help. You're not alone. And yes, someone joining a group needs to be confidential, their participation needs to be really, really private. But the ministry itself almost needs to get more elevated because otherwise it gets caught up in that shame of we don't really talk about it, no one knows what to do. So we just all keep silent, and you guys are taking that opposite track to just be bold and say, this is one of our ministries. Come check it out, be a part of it. And I think that goes back to the idea of discipleship then in the church that if on your website people see, oh, this church helps with marriages and they help with kids stuff, and they help with sexuality, that's just one of the realities of being a human being. And the church can help with that. And why not make it a part of our discipleship plan, which you guys have done. So kudos to you for your willingness to see that and embrace it and just make it one of the ways you're helping people.

Yeah, yeah, it's been great.

Nick, you said something earlier in the podcast, too, that I want to just reiterate on. And, Ryan, you've taken advantage. I know some other friends in the Northwest, but Pure Desire has some wonderful communicators in our speaking team. I think of, like, our females, Ashley Jameson or Heather Kolb. Just some great voices that I've had friends bring out to their congregation, who, from a woman's perspective that's addicted or how it affects the brain or just coming at it with, like, just a lot of different educational ways and stories. You don't have to be the expert. I just would say to pastors, it's okay that you're not the expert in everything, right? But I know people, right? The only reason I have wisdom is because I know a lot of people that have helped me in a lot of different areas of my life. And I would just say to the listener who's a pastor man, Pure Desire has a lot of resources that you can take advantage of and can be great voices to help you. If you're doing a series or even now with this, our parent training is going to be put on a digital format that churches could purchase and use that as a training piece to lower shame. And just thank you for, you know, being open to conversations with me years ago and just opening up to say, hey, what if, you know, we had other voices speak to this?

Yeah, totally. I love it.

So, Ryan, you were mentioning this a little bit, just encouragement to pastors, but I want to invite you to go a little bit deeper with that, because we know a reality in this area is that most churches haven't done anything. They don't have a ministry. In fact, in the Barna report that has come out, only 9% of pastors would say their church has a ministry, specifically in the area of Sexuality or pornography, which means 91% of churches don't. And so what would you say to that pastor that doesn't have a ministry hasn't done anything to encourage them? Like what are they missing out on by not addressing this topic? Why is this such an important ministry for a church to embrace?

Yeah, that's good. I think it's because again, this is where people are living and the, the data is clear. Our culture is just increasingly sexualized in all sorts of ways. And I think that pastors are missing out on speaking to one of the more important issues of life. And so I just would want to encourage pastors again to, to recognize that like there are incredible not only specific benefits and needs for people in your church in this area, it spills over to all sorts of other areas. This, this area being under addressed is also causing a malaise of spirituality and vibrancy in all other areas of church life. I'm not saying it's the silver bullet, but I'm saying it's one of the core areas and core issues where the enemy clearly has a stranglehold on lots of us. And so I think that when we as pastors courageously address this and with winsomeness, build the right culture to actually have it be effective with grace and lowering shame, I think what we become a part of is that it's like an avalanche of good stuff. It's grace and freedom and life and seeing gospel restoration happen in people's lives. And there's the amount of people that have gone through SI 101 for us or are in pure desire groups. Those people's vibrancy of faith connected to the church in all sorts of ways is also evident that you can just tell like God's at work in the areas of their hearts that I think they kind of thought were never going to be healed and that that's what pastors are missing out on here. The temptation to go, this is complicated. This is, you know, uncomfortable. This is taboo. This is whatever the, that decision of not being courageous and building a healthy culture around this is going to cost you in a bunch of other areas. So I just feel like we can't bury our head in the sand. We can't do that. We have to be courageous and build a healthy culture around this, this area. So, yeah, that's, that's what I would say almost.

You're saying, Ryan, it's the modern day revival about just, you know, a different way of seeing it, but learning how to integrate the way of God in some of These sacred, scary areas. I remember one pastor saying to me, I was going to take this to my grave. No one was ever going to know. And so God's exposure wasn't to embarrass, but was to heal. You know, it was to bring healing to those areas, not just shame or embarrassment. Our decisions bring shame, not God. God's trying to heal all that. And so thank you for being a place where people can find that. Any final words of just encouragement. I love that you're here, I love that you're sharing your story, and I like you as a person. But thank you for just turning and saying, what can we do to help the congregation be healthier in this area? What final words would you give someone today?

I would just say to anyone listening, you're not alone. You're not alone. I think that whether it's a pastor who feels like they don't have any idea where to start or how to move the ball down the field, or they haven't faced their own story, you're not. You're not alone. There's people that have walked where you've walked. There's great ministries like Pure Desire. There's resources available, and I would just want to encourage them to take a step of faith and courage and start the conversation. Start the conversation where you can around this area, because it will yield fruit. And it might be a journey. It might take you 10 years. You might. You might start like we did and preach on it and go, isn't that good? And then not know what to do. And then.

Right.

And then launch a conquer invite and have three guys show up and feel like, oh, man, I guess everyone knows this is a problem, but no one wants to deal with it. But then eventually, as you keep at it, just keep at it, something breaks.

I think.

I think it'll probably be different for everybody. And I think there is strategy in that. I think it's connected, like we said, to lowering shame and getting as many people. We gotta make the funnel way bigger at the top end of this.

Yes.

But if you can chip away at that and just refuse the lie of the enemy, that you're alone in ministry or in your own journey, your own story in this area, I think that's the word of encouragement I'd want to leave people with. Yeah, beautiful.

Yeah. I think I would echo that in my own story. My final encouragement to say that this is worth it. Before I was the director of Pure Desire Ministries, I was a pastor and for six years was seeing this ministry function in our church and I say unequivocally, it was the most significant discipleship ministry we ever had. We had tried a lot of other things with, like, evangelism training and discipleship materials and spiritual gifts assessments. Like, we. We had. I. What I feel like was a pretty robust spiritual discipleship pathway, but it didn't produce near the effectiveness of transformation in people's lives as when we really began to launch pure desire groups. And I don't think that's about pure desire as much as it is the reality that sexuality is one of our deepest, earliest parts of our humanity. And if we're experiencing shame there, if we're experiencing lies there, if we're experiencing pain or brokenness there that we don't know what to do with and no one is talking about, it is negatively impacting everything else in our faith and in our church attendance and in our service. And what I saw in the lives of men and women is when they found hope there, when Christ met them in some of their deepest shame and pain, not only was their freedom of behaviors and growth in their marriage, but it was like their engagement with the church community would just be night and day. You know, I started to find out that for some of the men, you know, I think that's in churches, like, man. Men are on the periphery. We need them to get engaged and do things and be involved. Well, I found out in my church that many of those men that were just kind of hanging around in the periphery, it was the shame in their lives around their sexuality that was keeping them on the edge because they were like, well, if I. If I get too close or too involved, someone's going to ask me about this part of my life, and I don't want to go there. And if I do, they'll reject me anyway. So I just stay on the edges. And when those men did group and they found freedom, like, I could literally watch a man in his progression move from the back of the room to sitting in the middle with his family, to being in the front, you know, a couple of rows, because now they felt safe and alive and free. And they became all of our new volunteers and leaders. And that wasn't our strategy to begin with. Like, we just. This was my story. And so we were launching groups because I figured it was part of other people's story. But that's what we saw happen was like, oh, this actually becomes a leadership training platform. This actually becomes a volunteer recruitment platform. And it never started there, like I said. But when people were healthy in this area of their lives, it started to spill out into everything. And so that's why I say to pastors and leaders in churches, it may take some time, as you were alluding to Ryan, to get traction to figure out what works for you, but it is worth it because of what it does in the lives of your people and for the overall health and growth of your church. It's worth it.

That's good.

Rodney, any final encouragement you want to give our listeners today?

No, Just leadership means go first. And, Ryan, thank you for going first and leading your congregation in this area and having the courage to do it. And then Ryan is a tremendous golfer, and if you ever get a chance to get him on your team in any kind of golfing event, which I tried the other day, but it was unsuccessful, you're a game up, you know. So, anyway, I know, Ryan, just appreciate your friendship, blessings on what all you guys are doing there. And just thanks for being you. Thanks for being authentic.

Thanks. Thank you. Appreciate you guys.

Yeah, Ryan, this has been so good today. We appreciate the conversation. The recent data from Barna tells us that more Christians are struggling with sexual brokenness and betrayal than ever before. And we believe the church can do something about it, that we can be a safe place of hope, freedom, and healing. And True Hope Church in Spokane is living that out. So, Ryan, thanks for joining us and for sharing a little bit of your church's story today. And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe to the podcast, share it with somebody else, or write us a review. All of these help other people find the material and engage in their own stories. If you want more information about pure desire, groups, resources, or counseling, go to PureDesire.org and to get your copy of the new Barnadotta beyond the Porn Phenomenon, you can visit PureDesire.org BPP that's PureDesire.org BPP for Beyond the Porn Phenomenon. Thanks for joining us. Journey on, my friends, you are not alone.

Sam.