378 - Intimate Deception w/ Dr. Sheri Denham-Keffer

Foreigners, wherever you are, whatever you may be doing, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. You are listening to episode 378, and this is your biblically based and clinically informed approach defining healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. We're so glad to have you listening in to this episode today. And here joining me is a guest co host, Mrs. Tracy Wright. Tracy, welcome to the program. Hi, Mick.

Hi, everybody. Glad to be here.

Now, Traci, I think a lot of our listeners probably know this, but you are married to Rodney Wright, a frequent guest on the podcast, and you and Rodney have done a podcast together or have you done a couple of them or just the one?

Yeah, maybe only one podcast together. We did celebrate 35 years of marriage on Monday, though, so.

Well, that's awesome. I'm sure our listeners want to know what is it like to be married to Rodney for 35 years? Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Oh, I have to say that when we married each other and we were in our early 20s, he said, I can't really promise you much. I. I can't really promise you money or, you know, all these things, but I can promise that it'll never be boring. And he has kept that promise. So you have not been boring.

Yes. Well, we are super thankful for what you do. Our listeners may know that Tracy is one of our clinicians here at Pure Desire. And if you would like to hear more from their story or hear from them, we can put that podcast in the show. Notes. Today we had a unique opportunity to interview a very special guest, Dr. Sherry Keffer, the author of the book Intimate Deception. And let me tell you just a little bit about Dr. Sherry. She is a doctor of marriage and family therapy living in Newport Beach, California. She is a certified partner, trauma therapist, survivor. That's a mouthful. And there are a lot of acronyms behind her name. She has all of them, so brace yourself. She is a certified clinician, clinical partner specialist, a certified sex addiction therapist, and a consultant and emdr. And just because she didn't have much else to do, she also has a theology degree from Fuller Theological Seminary, and she is the winner of the 2019 ITAP Outstanding Publication Award for her book, Intimate Deception, Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal, which is our focus of today's episode. She is also the founder of braveone.com, you'll get to hear a little bit about that in the episode. It is helping women go from the devastating pain to finding hope, knowing the truth, and believing that you're enough. Dr. Keffer is also one of the featured expert voices in our new study with the Barna group, Beyond the porn phenomenon. Traci, what can our listeners expect out of the conversation today that we had with Dr. Sherry?

Yeah, I was just really excited to get to share with her today. I've been familiar with her for a long time, but this is the first time just in person to hear her heart. And she, she has just so much joy and so much hope. She has her own story to share, which I think is really powerful. And a lot of years that she's walked through that and then walked through it with others. So she just has a wealth of experience and she's, she's just super joy filled but also practical. So she's got a lot to share like that you can actually really grab onto. That's tangible.

Yeah. And, and she's lived it and you get to hear that today in her story, both the hard and messy stuff and the growth that it the original part of her story, the first marriage, didn't make it. And she shares that pretty openly. And for some of our listeners, I know that that may be a part of their story and what they're journeying through, but now God is using their story and she and her husband are both CSATs and are helping a lot of couples, which I think is amazing to hear when someone is not only working in this area to help others, but doing it out of their own experience and being willing to share their story. And Dr. Sherry definitely is in that category. She is a lot of fun to listen to. So listeners, I think you're in for a real treat today. Here is our time with Dr. Sheri Keffer on the topic of her book, Intimate Deception. Dr. Sheri Keffer, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. We're so glad to have you with us today.

I'm honored to be here.

Today we're going to spend some time talking about your book, Intimate Deception, Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal. This is, as you know well as the author, a very common experience. A partner discovers that their spouse has a secret addiction or a compulsive sexual behavior and the life and the marriage blow up, things are destroyed and people wonder, can anything be rebuilt? So many questions around it. So we're going to talk through this situation and the work you've done in your book to help betrayed partners. And so for our listeners, Dr. Sherry, who may not know you or know much about you, would you just give us a little bit of overview of yourself and about tell us a Little bit about the work that you're doing.

Yeah. I think first and foremost, I just want to say the thing that I would want them to know about me is I actually am a betrayed partner. I was married to Pastor Connor, who really struggle with both a porn addiction. He had compulsive sexual acting out, affairs, multiple affairs, prostitutes, and of course pornography. And all of that came up within our first year of marriage. So I was not prepared, equipped. It decimated me. I didn't know about the affairs and the prostitutes till further into our marriage. But the pornography is what I found out about in the first year. And I think that is probably the thing that I, I am drawn to you all who are here and I hope that you're drawn to me to understand more and listen and we can learn together. Because I have a lot of hope. I have a lot of hope. And I, I just kind of wish right now that I could take you back to where I was when this started. I feel like you're seeing the last chapter first and I hope that that brings you some hope. But it is the last chapter. It's a life that is now meaning. I have meaning in helping to care and love people that are going through this. And the ancient Hebrew word for lust is actually ava, which means the strong nail that hooks you to itself. And so those that sexually act out can relate to that, that hook and the opposite. It's actually the contrary word, it's cave, it's the derivative which means what comes after the nail. And so those that are working on their sobriety, on their honesty, on healing that, you know, seeing them in this place, I, they're my heroes. They give me hope as I see them do things that help to repair their relationship. And for betrayed partners, we want nothing more than for them to get unhooked. We, we long for hope. We, we want to be in a safe place. We, we get hurt by the, the sexual acting out, we get hurt by the lies. And so those things have been underneath what's caused me to do what I do today. And so I am a doctor of marriage and Family therapy. I went back to school as a do over phase from having been a pastor's wife. I couldn't hang a shingle out as a divorced pastor's wife. There wasn't a lot of, you know, jobs out there for me. So I ended up going to school, getting my degree. But now I am certified. I'm a supervisor at itap. I'm a supervisor in partner trauma and I helped train therapists and Coaches. I'm also a certified sex addiction therapist and I'm also just finished my couple's work, certified clinical betrayal recovery therapist for couples. So I, I get, I'm a part of the whole process of recovery and I, I love that I get to sit in facets of caring for people all along the way.

Dr. Sherry, you also wrote a book that has been really inspirational to a lot of people. And so you, you know, giving us a little idea of your story, you know, tells us what about why you wrote that book. But how, how did you lead into that and particularly about that title, Intimate Deception.

Yeah, the book is called Intimate Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal. And honestly it came from my own experience, but even more so from research, I was actually working with betrayed partners and their families. And what I discovered is that when the impact, when you find a discovery, when there's been something that's come forward, like you mentioned earlier, Nick, it really just decimates that relationship. But here's the thing. I would sit with people and in my office, I began to notice that there was something that hurt them, even what felt like worse. And so I did some research with a hundred betrayed partners. And this is what I said. I said while both of these things are gravely painful, the sexual acting out, the types of sexual acts that you have discovered or found out about or that's been brought forward, or the continued patterns of lies, why both of those are horribly painful, which one feels more painful to you? And damaging. Right? Painful, damaging. And this is what they said, 65% of them said. It's the ongoing lies, it's the COVID up, it's the gaslighting, it's the psychological abuse, it's finding out that the one you're with actually had sex with a prostitute when you were pregnant. It is finding out that on a trip that you were at, you know, a great trip, that you went out of the country, that the one you're with who compulsively sexually acts out was hooking up with prostitutes. At the same time, it is that in addition to the acts, and these were like pornography, affairs, prostitutes, there was illegal sexual activity, cyber sex. I mean the whole list of acting out was there. And so that's why I named my book Intimate Deception Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal. Because the damage, it's intimate deception, betrayal, trauma is really what we're dealing with in addition to the sexual acting out.

Yeah, it's so common that the, the experience for that betrayed partner is the one that I know best and should trust the most. Is the one who hurt me the most and had the most to hide. And there is a real contradiction in life there, that the more we're opened up to someone and connected to them, there's that capacity for hurt. And for so many of those couples, there hasn't been a way to address that, to understand it, to know what to do with that. We suffer in silence. We go to churches that may not understand what we're going through and we're told, have more sex or be more sexual and that will fix it. And not really given tools to begin to address what's happened. I think that's something you do a lot of in your book is helping the individual and couple see what they're going through. You have an assessment in your book about understanding intimate deception as trauma. Why would you say that? It's difficult for a betrayed partner to recognize that what they're experiencing is actually trauma.

It's a big aha for them. And let me tell you why I think that is. I think two reasons. One is when they find out about the sexual acts that are going on, there is shame that gets stuck to us. The brain is trying to save us. So it wires in beliefs like this. I can't trust anyone. I'm not enough. I'm not in control, I'm in danger. All of those things. And. And that shame that gets stuck to us like tar, it keeps us from getting the very support that we need. So we may be sequestered away, we may isolate because we don't know who to tell. And that's why I love your podcast. Right. The Pure Desire podcast is a really safe way that people can start getting information and support. And I think the thing that may be even a bigger issue is that betrayed partners are missed. The conversations that happen with clergy, that happen with counselors, who are often the first responders, as you mentioned, Nick, pin it to us. There's some reason that the sexual acting out was happening. It's it. It's as if they're saying, and sometimes they even say this. What is. What was going on with you before the sexual acting out came happened? That's shame. That's external shame being placed on you. So partners are missed. And, and I want to say this and be really clear. I do not believe that it is a marriage issue. I think it's a sexual deception issue. And so often they are giving go to marriage counseling thinking that they're going to get help for the coupleship. When the sexual acting out is hidden. There hasn't been an Honest truth telling. We do something called a therapeutic full disclosure with a polygraph. It's like the most honest confession you can ever go through with the one that you betrayed. But it's. It's interesting because I think so much is put on the marriage first, where really it's a sexual deception issue. And you might say, well, how can you say that with such confidence, Sherry? How can you just say, yeah, no, it's not a marriage issue. There's a lot of marriages that struggle. How can you be so bold to say it's a sexual deception issue? And the reason I can say that is now that I've done years of these therapeutic full disclosures and polygraphs, what I've discovered is that the pornography was happening early on in that person's life. And as much as they didn't think they would be bringing it into the marriage or bringing it into the committed relationship, it comes with them like bad luggage. And, and, and it just starts growing. And it's not like there's consent. It's not like the one who's been looking at porn and they found it when they were, you know, 7, 8, 9, 11 years old. It's not like they have come to their new spouse or the person that committed relationship and said, hey, I just want to let you know I've been looking at pornography for the last, you know, 12 years, and I probably. I'm going to look ever so often, or I might use it, or I might continue to go to massage parlors or I might, whatever. And I just want to make sure you're good with that. Like, that's consent.

Yeah. There's not how it happened.

No. So there's the sucker punch to us as the spouse, the betrayed partner. And we think it's either about us or it's a marriage issue. And, and I find that when the sexual acting out issue is addressed and when the partner can get stronger and know what she needs to do in order to support that happening and to support her own strength building to stop the craziness that's going around. She gets educated. She begins to understand what her surroundings are and what is available to us. Things change. And I'm all about change.

I think that validation that you're talking about, Dr. Sherry, is just so important because that starting place of knowing this, this wound goes deep, but I don't know how to put words to it. Right. And someone who's experienced it, who's worked with people who've experienced it, can come along and kind of put words and hold Hope with you. Right. Of you don't quite know what you need yet. And, you know, even the education that starts up here in our mind before it actually feels real. Right. But someone can come along and educate us about that. And we don't have to accept it yet, but we're on that journey to be able to do that. So from, from your perspective in working with partners, what do you see as some of those most impactful pieces on the early parts of their healing journey?

Yeah, I think it's really how I watch once I get a roadmap. And I know there's some that are listening right now and there's some that are watching, but you'll see this colorful piece of paper. This is my betrayal recovery roadmap. I was asked to do this by itap so that I could explain what happens from the moment a betrayed partner comes into my office. Where is she sitting? Or where is he sitting, depending on who was betrayed. And that's like right here. It's ground zero. It's the boom, it's the impact. And without having a roadmap that's going to start at ground zero. And then the second thing I do is strength building. I'm right away starting to get her into strength building. I'm doing early recovery covery work with the coupleship to help them understand. Hey, there's some steps to help you start moving in a direction. These two columns right here, and if you're listening, I have two columns that are blue and kind of turquoise green. That's all about the truth building. That's about the therapeutic full disclosure. That's about the polygraph that can be used to help get the couple into truth. And then the. The last column there is restoring the relationship. Now that we're in truth, now that we know what's going on, there's hope. You can heal and repair with or without that significant other. Right. We just don't know. But that couple no longer is limping along in silence or in wounds that are just oozing. Showing partners there's a plan, there's a way through this, and there's actually watching other partners. And this happens in my brave one community a lot. Watching other partners get stronger and grow and change and make changes in their families and their marriages. It's inspiring. It's like a forest fire in the best sort of way that just starts and people start gaining momentum. It's, it's. It's hope giving. Yeah. And I'm not trying to minimize all the pain. This, this splat Right here. This happens again and again. And especially if that husband or significant other isn't in treatment and isn't progressing in their treatment, you might say everything's okay. And then three months later, a year later, that's what happened with Connor and I. We were in therapy for four years, going three times a week to the same therapist who was holding all sides. And while we were in therapy three times a week for four years, he had had multiple affairs and multiple prostitutes during that period of time. My therapist didn't know. I didn't know it was the great cover up. And I don't want anyone to have to wander that way at all. It's a waste of time and money and resources and your health and your sanity.

Yeah. What you're speaking to, Dr. Sherry, is that it is a process, it's a journey. And for our listeners, you can go on the YouTube channel, you can see that graphic that she held up. Is there a place that listeners could go and find a copy of what you were referring to? Is that on your website or where might they find that?

Yeah, it's a brave one.com store. I have all kinds of resources there that are available. And then inside my Brave One community, I actually created something called the Brave One Journey. And I walk everyone through the steps of that.

I think what's important for everyone, though, is to think through that. That journey will take time and needs to take time. And I think the addict or struggler needs to hear that just as much as the betrayed partner. I know for myself. You know, back to what you were saying earlier about it being a marriage issue, I looked at it as the one who was struggling as, okay, I've got a problem, I need to stop the problem, and that will fix the marriage. And then we have to probably do a little bit of repair work. But I saw it more as an event and didn't see that this was going to be. Not only did I have a whole pathway into the struggle that I had, that my wife and I were going to need a whole pathway out of it. And I just wanted to echo what you said about it not being a marriage issue. I mean, in my story and now in every group I've led, there is always a preceding pathway and pattern. It's like the tip of the iceberg. Like when someone shares about their behavior, you're just getting the above the waterline tip of the iceberg. But there is a whole host, usually of family of origin, things, past traumas, sexual things that either they did or were done to Them in teenage years that led to their pattern of acting out and typically is not known within the marriage. And so I've never, you know, I've been leading groups now with men for 14 years and I've never, never a single time had a man say, you know, I entered marriage pure. Then we had marriage struggles. And so I started acting out sexually. Like, that is never the story. It's always, yeah, I brought some things into marriage. And even sometimes the wife may know a little bit of it, but not the whole story. And then whether it's five years in or 15 years or 40 years in, something bubbles up. They get caught, there's discovery, there's disclosure. And now all of this hidden pattern is in the light and it kind of unravels the relationship because that betrayed spouse is sitting there thinking everything we walked through, what was real, what did I actually know? Because there was all this other stuff happening I didn't know about. And if we come alongside and just treat that as an event to be fixed or a marriage issue, that if we fix the marriage, it will be okay. We are ignoring this whole pattern that has happened leading up to the moment and then we might miss what you're showing us in that graphic, that there's a whole pattern of things that we're going to need to do to heal from that and that the betrayed spouse can walk that journey with a spouse who's actively pursuing recovery or if need be, they may need to walk that journey for their own health and good, even if the betraying or acting out, addicting spouse doesn't choose to turn away from their behavior.

Yeah, no, I love, love what you've said, Nick. It resonates so much with me, the work that I do with those that compulsive sexually act out. As I get into their history, into the story and find out what happened to them, what they were told, what was said to them, I well up in tears because it's so much pain. And that pain drives their behaviors, doesn't excuse them sexually betraying. Right. And not, I'm not taking that away. But what I'm saying is underneath that is a lot of harm. And even with Connor, I knew that there was some sexual acting out. I knew that he called a 900 line. And I was really naive to what that was. It's a sex line. And I honestly thought that what that was is he would call the sex line and there would be a recording and, you know, heavy breathing or something. I don't know. I just had no idea. And it Wasn't until I got into counseling that I found out they were real people on the other side that he was talking to. I knew before I married that Connor had had sex with somebody like a hookup. He had revealed that to me. Just a woman that he met driving along a road. And he had also gotten gonorrhea. Now I minimized that. I spiritualized all of that. And I thought that he. Things would change in our marriage. I thought that he was past that and our relationship would be enough. And I didn't know enough to even ask deeper questions, which I now know more. But back then I did not know what to ask. But I remember thinking about my own life and going, I am far from being perfect. I have done my own things that I am ashamed of. And I quickly forgave Connor that day and then just continued to move forward. But I think the underpinnings, you know, he had an early sexual experience with another boy. And I think that played into some of the what was his pain underneath and fueling trying to, you know, re get his life back through relationships with women outside of marriage. But he struggled to be close to me. I was right there, but he wasn't attached to me. It holding his hand, running my fingers through his hair was repulsive to him. He felt uncomfortable with it. Now that's not that way for others. Right? Everybody's different. But I didn't understand what that was about until, you know, really now, until later in my life.

I didn't understand that when it's, I think, such a hallmark for men and women who struggle in addiction. They've gotten so wrapped up in that need for sex or having desires or needs met that they actually don't know how to engage in real intimacy and receive true affection from another person. Because it's become so about the, you know, the pinnacle of sex or that. That rush versus actual relationship and intimacy. And I think it's part of the relearning that couples go through and underscores why. And I know you say it and we say it because we've all kind of walked in that ITAP community and some of this healing process to say this recovery takes time and the marriage doesn't heal quickly. It's going to be several years of walking in this process to not just stop a behavior. It's about relearning true intimacy. And so some of that is it's kind of moving into next steps. And one of the themes that comes out in your book quite a bit is about post traumatic growth. People have maybe heard about that idea, but unpack it for us a little bit. Like, what is post traumatic growth and how does it apply to betrayed partners?

You know, when I'm going to bring a word picture here, post traumatic growth feels like manure to me. It is. It. You know, my life was decimated and no matter how hard I tried, I felt like I just became a manure farmer. I was out there shoveling, you know what, and I couldn't seem to dig myself out of the pain, the stink, the hurt, the depression, the anxiety. What happens? And the research has shown this, Debbie Laser and a group of other folks who did some research showed that when sexually betrayed partners get the resources they need, get the care, get the support, get the information, all the things that are needed in order to give them a good care, a good self recovery program from the sexual betrayal. Oftentimes we so many betrayed partners say, I just want him to do what he needs to do. Just get to work and fix, get fixed, figure it out so that you can stop doing the thing that's hurting me. But we sit on the sidelines with post traumatic stress symptoms, and that's why I am continuing to go come hither, come hither like doves in a cleft of a rock. I'm calling betray partners out to help them heal. And I know that you all do the same thing. But post traumatic growth is, is now instead of manure and me being a dirt farmer, right, it's. It's the fertilizer that now is a part of my life. And I watch become parts of other people's life as they're just beacons of hope. After these years of care. I've got a couple that's coming into my community so excited. I know their story. He, he just celebrated six years of recovery, just gave her this huge big balloon, these blown up balloons with the number six on all of them. And they're celebrating six years of sobriety and rebuilding, just like you said, Nick. But I knew them at ground zero. I knew them and all the pain, all the acting out. But I'm bringing them in to talk to women in my community, both the husband and wife, as an example of post traumatic growth of an example of what it looks like, that it's possible to be in a better place. And if they were here right now, and I would say, okay, so was it an easy walk? They. They probably would both laugh and just go, yeah, you know better than anybody else how hard it was. But they, they've grown stronger and they're they're really different now. They're different people. That's post traumatic growth. That no matter what you do actually come out stronger and there is some meaning and value. As you look back at that experience, you can get that. That's actually the sixth stage of grief. I didn't even know there was six stages. This is like a couple years ago I was doing some research on grief. We all know denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. Right. But there's a six stage that's been added, I think just a few years ago. It's called meaning making.

Yeah.

Taking that pain that has happened and finding that there is some growth that can happen on the other side.

I think early on there's like this conflict of betrayed partners want that they, they want to hope. They want to grab on to some healing and know that it's out there. And if I accept that or if I move that direction, I feel like you're almost betraying yourself, like you're minimizing it. Can you talk a little bit about that? Just that conflict within. To be like, okay, if I accept that because the pain can feel like I'm never going to get past this. It's too deep. There's no way that I can heal. But yet we so much don't want that pain minimized and can feel that way.

It really can. I just have gotten some recent training in the couple's work with a new. New stuff is always coming out. Yeah. It's called Urkam. It came out of the book Help them Heal. And what it does, and to your point, Tracy, is it's a mode of couples. It's early couples empathy recovery model. And it helps a couple actually face to face. Not sitting next to each other on the couch, not even turning next to each other. They're knee to knee. And the betrayed partner has the opportunity of talking about her hurt and pain and the deep questions that she has. The impact things that she, she hasn't even known how to verbalize, but she just feels it. And I'm there supporting the coupleship. I'm kind of guiding them through this deeper place of healing, but then helping him learn how to empathize, not say I'm sorry. Which I call those cheap sorrys. I tell the guys, like, okay, I know you're, I'm so sorry. I go, no, no, no. There's like so many other things you can say other than I'm sorry. It's, it's, it's a cheap sorry. It's not going in. It won't. But helping him come up with the language, to listen with his art. Even when in the room, the shame is popping up for him, like he's starting to feel feelings. And I know you know what this is like, Nick, right? When the pain of what you have done is being talked about, it's. It's like they want to bat it away, understandably, the last thing we ever want to do. And I have hurt people before. I hate. I would rather be hurt than hurt somebody else, to be honest, because it's a horrible feeling. But helping him hold space and really listen and validate her cathartically. Tracy. I watch just this release begin to happen in partners as it's not like they're just going, I got a motor through it. I got to try harder. I just got to forgive and go forward. I'm like, if that is still a pop up. If you're struggling with something that just keeps coming up about what happened in the betrayal, we have got to go.

Deeper what's going on.

We have to give you a safe space to share it, get it out, and then have a supportive experience. And the guys are usually happy that I'm there to help them. They're a little afraid when they come in at first because they. They think I'm, I don't know, not going to be on their side. But actually I am. I'm trying to help both of them move through that, those painful things. But I've watched couples, like, start to breathe again just because it's not being minimized. Like you said, Tracy, we can't minimize it. We've got to fly into the head of it, like a headwind. I've got to just go right towards it, which is good trauma work, and then be able to land the plane once there's been a deeper place of healing.

Yeah. And what you're underscoring, Dr. Sherry, is that this is not easy on either side. Whether you're the struggle or addict or you're on the betrayed side, there is just a ton of fear and anxiety that comes with the fear of being exposed, the fear of having to tell the truth of the things we've done for the betrayed side, the fear of, you know, what if there has been an affair? And what does that mean for me or my future or my kids? And it is not an easy process. And I think it's natural to have fear of, like, why would we even do that? Why would we enter into that? But, you know, I'm thinking of another interview that took place in this very office, you know, and I heard a couple that was sharing about a string of multiple affairs in the marriage, and then they looked back on their story and said, but if we could change anything about our story, we wouldn't change a thing. And. And that's crazy to hear because it's like, well, wait, wouldn't you go back and undo all the pain and the hurt? But what they see is because we faced this pain and because we had to go deep into it and we didn't run from it, God brought some things into our marriage. God used that messiness to create growth and fruit in ways that. That we couldn't have gotten here any other way. And so, as crazy as it might sound to have someone say they wouldn't do it any other way, that's the experience of a lot of couples. And so, you know, if we think about it like shoveling manure, you can see that manure does become fertilizer, as you said, and that that fruit is really what it's all about. And so it's worth facing. And even if, you know, we may be in a situation where we don't know if the marriage is going to make it, we don't know if that relationship will last. And I think the other truth of it is, at the end of the day, we're still going to be us, right? Like, we're still writing our story. And there might have been horrible things that happened to us, or maybe we were the ones that did things we regret. And now we're losing a marriage or relationship, but what's really going to matter is what happens for me. And so we might feel like we're shoveling this huge pyre of pile of manure, and is it worth it? Why would I do that? But if we can see that, in the end, it can create fruit for me. I can find my voice. I can understand my identity and my belonging in Christ. I can have healthier relationships in the future. Then that vision, I think, can carry us through a lot of the messiness because we're going to take who we are into all of our future relationships. And so we can either stay stuck in that mess of the betrayal or the addiction or whatever happened to us. And. And that will really become a hindrance, I think, in our future. Or we can lean into this. We can let the manure become fertilizer and lead to fruit in our lives, and then we get to see that fruit working itself out in future relationships and in just who we become. And, you know, isn't that what we're all about? Is who does God want us to become in this world as we follow him? So if you're like Dr. Sherry and you feel like you're shoveling the manure and just how big is this pile? I think my encouragement is keep going, because one day you'll look back and see the fruit that's come from it. And as crazy as that sounds, many people have been down that road and have come to that exact place. And I think that gives us courage that that might happen for us as well.

Yeah, it took me years to pick that dirt out of my teeth. Right. It just took me years. But to your point, Nick, I. My marriage was a casualty. My marriage to Connor was a casualty. I'm heartbroken because the resources weren't there to even know. There was no. There was no map. Right. And. But my life has been anything but a casualty. This is. I'm here today as a witness and evidence to you can move on with your life. I'm. Now I'm getting ready to celebrate 11 years with my kinsman, redeemer, Kyle, and happily married, and we actually work together. He is a certified sex addiction therapist. Go figure. I mean, you couldn't even have told me that that would be my life back in the manure, Chuck and state. But it is where I'm at now, and I'm. I'm just grateful to God, who is a more of what the lo have eaten.

You talk in your book about eight steps to taking your truth back, and I am sure that some of that comes from your own story that you were just talking about. But can you kind of describe or just share part of that with our listeners?

Yeah, it actually is in my chapter Gaslighting blame and deception. Oh, my. It comes in the chapter where I talk about the lying, the deceit, the gaslighting, and something called Darvo. Darvo is basically a psychological abuse where the person you're confronting denies the behavior, denies whatever they did, whatever you saw, attacks the one who's confronting them, which is you. And then reverses. R is reverse victim. An offender. So they become the victim, and you become the offender in that. So in with sexual deception, there's a lot of twisting the truth. Gaslighting is, you know, strategically twisting the truth to make you believe something's wrong with you instead of something is wrong or here. Right. With the hiding, the sexual acting out. So in my eight steps, and I hope you'll get my book to read these, because these are critical to getting your sanity back and holding on to your core strength. It's really just seeking wise counsel. Don't. Number two is don't isolate. Number three is find a safe group people that you can trust. Number four is stand in your story like whatever you saw, it's okay to stand in that. You don't have to let somebody twist you into a pretzel and make you believe it's you when you saw it with your own eyes. And. And to that point, number five is keeping private records. I have partners that will have a special place on their phone that your kids could never find, you know, or on your computer that's password protected where you can kind of write down some of the things that you found just to make sense of it all. And then number six is say hello to your body. Listen to what's going on in your body. It's. It's crying out to you saying something isn't okay. Seven is pressing into your faith. You know, and I know some of us, I went through this. I have a chapter that's called where is God? Because I really lost my faith because of the spiritual faith trauma that to Connor, being a pastor and feeling like God was not watching out for me, wasn't even, you know, I just felt really unseen by God that would spiritual faith trauma. But I talk about that. And then to just be kind. Number eight is be kind and patient with yourself. There's a reason you're feeling spun out, but there's things that you can do in order to ground yourself in reality and ground yourself in your truth.

Well, actually, what was going through my mind is Sher when I looked at your book, it is so practical. And I mean that not just as an advertisement for your book, but truly that is what stood out to me the most. I know you, you're an inspirational person and you provide a lot of hope. But some of these principles that you're bringing out today that are in your book, I just see as so practical. Like, this is actually something I can grab onto and there are a lot of different ways that we heal. But thank you for sharing some of those and just, just what you shared right there. Very, very practical. I can do that. I think support being one of the biggest that we need and it's for many, very hard to take that step and risk to find support. Doesn't feel safe always.

No. And it can feel like you're jumping through two rings of fire.

Right.

Just to get to the support. But I just want to talk right now to the betrayed partner that's listening, that is hearing the three of us and saying okay, what they're talking about makes sense. But seriously, I have no desire to get into a room with other people that are going through this. You know, heaven forbid I know someone, they might know me. I mean, it's all that fear.

Yeah.

And that can keep us duck. It can keep us in the manure. It can keep you from changing the trajectory of the sexual acting out that's happening right under your own nose. And so I know how brave you are to even consider jumping in, consider listening to this podcast, consider, you know, joining my community or other places that are out there to. To support you. But we really do want to help you and want to help you heal. We want to help the crazy making. That's part of all this.

Yeah. And I, you know, I just want to echo that, too. And I so appreciate you saying that, Dr. Sherry, because I think it's very common for the betrayed spouse to feel like, this isn't my story, it's not my problem. I don't want to deal with this. You know, you go get better, you go get healthy, and that's what we really need to fix things. And there is some truth to that. Like, you need the struggler, you need the addict to work on their stuff and to get better if the relationship is going to make it. But on the other side, too, there is so much value that comes for that betrayed spouse if they're willing to lean into their side of the story. And I just, you know, I wanted to share from our own experience that my wife was there. My wife was like, I don't want to do group. Why do I have to do this? I don't want to talk about these things, you know, and here I am 14 years later. I'm the executive director of Pure Desire, and that was where my wife was at. And the counselors that we had, you know, they were requiring me to do group, but they were strongly encouraging my wife, saying, this will be good for you. It'll be healthy. It gives you a place to pray process. And she kind of came to that place where she was like, fine, you know, I'll give it a try. And, you know, I just want to say, if at the beginning that's where you're at, is others have encouraged you to do it, and you're not sure there's value, but you're willing to try it, that that's an okay place to start. Because what my wife found was that there was a safe place where she could go, her voice would be heard, her experiences were validated, her emotions could be shared in a room where other women were, would nod and go, we understand what you're going through. You know, one example of that for us was how my wife, for 10 years in our marriage, had shared that when I would confess I'd viewed pornography that. That felt like I was having an affair, like I was cheating on her. And the only person that she was getting feedback from was me. And of course, I'm stuck in rationalizing and minimizing and denying my behaviors. And I'm trying to say it's not, you know, it's not like that, and that, you know, you shouldn't feel. Feel that way. And I wasn't. I wasn't trying to dismiss her, honestly. I was trying to make her not feel so hurt and. And to protect myself because of what I was stuck in. But that was the only voice she was listening to, right? When she says, this feels like an affair. And then she goes to this women's betrayal recovery group through pure desire, and she shares that same thing. And what does she get back? She doesn't get an addicted spouse going, oh, don't feel that way. She gets a group of women saying, we understand that's totally normal. What you're experiencing is how we react to this kind of information. And it just so shifted for her, this whole conversation, to realize there are healthier voices out there that have walked this road that can help me understand what I'm going through and help me see that what steps do I need to take to heal me? And ultimately, that became a huge blessing to our marriage. But, you know, the starting point was that she found safety and validation for her. And so I just wanted to share that part of our story because I think maybe many people have been in that place where they're just not sure the value of it. This isn't my problem, but if you could see that little glimmer of, you know, maybe there is some support for me, maybe there's some things about my story and my fear and my anxiety that if I could process with others that have gone through something similar, I might find some growth and recovery, then it's worth it. And so, again, the goal is to become a healthier you, right? You can't control what your spouse is doing. You can't control how much they recover or how quickly. You can ask for it. You can encourage it, but at the end of the day, what you can control is you and the steps that you're taking. And the greatest thing you bring into a relationship is a healthier version of yourself. That's what will impact the relationship. And so I just want to encourage everyone that if you have an opportunity to be a part of a recovery group, to face betrayal, even though it's not your problem. I think there's such incredible health that can come from it. So, Dr. Sherry, that's a big part of what you do. We're so thankful for you coming on today and sharing that. We would just like our listeners to hear, how could they keep up with your work and specifically tell our listeners about your Brave One community?

Yeah, well, thank you. And to your point, I love what your wife did. That was so brave. I want to give your listeners the opportunity to come. Come and spend a few weeks with me. I want to give one month free to those of you that are listening to this Pure Desire podcast. You can go to brave1.com forward/puredesire braveone.com forward slash puredesire. And when you come in, you can just look and see and get that validation and ask yourself, does this feel like a place where I can grow? Is it a place where I can be safe? It's for all ages, all stages. It is for women who've been sexually betrayed, but it provides support, education, care, love. I get to spend time with you in there. I do Q and Q. And as I answer your questions, I get to talk with you live. I do all kinds of training. I. We are, right now, we're in the middle of my boundaries. I call it the boot kicking boundary set and Brave One challenge. And I call it that because, you know, we do have some influence over whether they're in their work or not. And boundaries, not punishment, but boundaries about protection are what we can do. And so I'm, I'm teaching that. I got lots of things going on, but if, if you're interested and want to come spend time with me, I'd love to have you again. Braveone.com forward/Pure Desire. P U R E E S I R E. And then when you go there as well, I have a free resource today that it's basically the seven critical elements for trust building. We've been talking a lot about what to do with all this, but it is a free download. Again, just go to that same place and you'll be able to download that for free.

Yes. That is awesome, Dr. Sherry. And we will put that in the show notes to make sure that our listeners can follow up and contract with you. We love what you're doing to help women recover and to find safe places to learn and grow. Because like so many of us saw in our story that that happened longer ago. Those resources just weren't out there but now they are and there are places like the Brave One Community and Pure Desire Groups where women can go and have an incredible place for support, encouragement and growth and so take advantage of that. Dr. Sherry, thanks for your work in this area and thank you for joining us on the Pure Desire podcast today.

Well thank you Nick and Tracy. I loved being with you both and all you that are listening and if.

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