379 - The Role of Intensives in Recovery

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Hello there, good listeners. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 379, and here joining me today is a guest co host, our friend and Pure Desire clinician, the beard, Mr. Bob Vandermeer. Bob, welcome back to the podcast.

Hey, thanks, Nick. It's always good to be here, man.

Yeah. And good to see you in person. Good to have you come into the office. I don't know if everybody knows that you are a Portland native and not too far from our office, even though you guys do almost all your work from home with our, our clients.

Yeah, yeah, we're, we're at home all the time now, which is kind of nice. My, my commute is 40ft from my back door to my office in my backyard.

But it got longer because it used to be shorter. Right? You guys built that office.

Yeah, yeah. It used to be in our basement. Yeah, yeah. Which we could hear everything our kids were doing while we were working. That's not conducive. No, no. So it's always good to be here.

Well, good to have you. And today we had, I think, a great conversation with a friend of the ministry. Matt Wenger is a part of Boulder Recovery. And we talked about the two week intensives that Boulder does and just a little bit about why someone might consider an intensive, what role that plays in recovery. And then we just talked about recovery in general in some really good ways. So, Bob, what did you take out of today and what can our listeners expect from this conversation?

Yeah, I mean, I think is. It was great just to hear from Matt and his, you know, he, like, we're doing like adjacent work, Right. We're doing a lot of the same work, but to hear him use different words to explain things that we do is always really fun. I don't know to me, right. To hear people that are excited, competent, passionate about what they're, and to talk about it in a slightly different way. I'm excited for our listeners to hear about just like what's available as an intensive, as a two week intensive, that it is something that is not so far out of reach and that you don't like the. He, you know, he describes kind of three different populations that might come visit them. And as he was describing those, I was like, that's like, that's every client that I work with at Pure Desire.

Right.

And so, yeah, just excited to hear that, that there are things you can do to make your recovery process even more robust than it already is.

Yeah, well, and I think that's what I like about this episode is many of us probably wrote off inpatient care or an intensive because like, I can't quit my job. I don't have enough money to go somewhere for 45 days or 60 or 90. But this two week model presents an opportunity of really getting another whole level in our recovery without having to disrupt our entire life. And there's probably more of us that should consider it than do. And we know Pure Desire, we're not offering too week intensives. That's not in our near term plans. So it's great to have partners like Boulder that offer a program we trust and are happy to refer people to. Yeah.

And even like the idea that like some people might not consider an intensive because they think, well, I'm not that bad or I don't need that. And as you listen, you know, to the, to this podcast, you'll realize that, oh, it's not just for that population. It's not just because I'm that bad, but like, I really, I think everybody could benefit from something like this.

Yeah. Well, it's a great conversation. A little bit more about Matt as we jump in. He's a licensed professional counselor, the clinical director of Boulder Recovery and one of its founders. He has served over a thousand sex and porn addicts in treatment and is considered an expert in the TINSA model, which you'll hear about in the episode. He also has advanced training in working with those betrayed by sex and porn addicts through AppSats. Another great partner of ours, Matt, is a frequent speaker on the topic of sexual addiction and has been featured in numerous podcasts, conferences and a forthcoming video training for Pastors by Covenant Eyes. Matt lives in Boulder, Colorado with his wife Jessica, their son Elijah, and enjoys hiking, reading and spending time with his family. So here now is our conversation with Matt Wenger from Boulder Recovery on the role of intensives and in recovery. Matt Wenger, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. Good to have you, man.

Yeah, thanks for having me, Nick. I appreciate it. It's an honor to be here with you guys.

So as a first time guest to the podcast, would you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, your family situation and a little bit about Boulder Recovery, the organization that you work for?

Yeah, sure. So, yeah, I'm living in Boulder, Colorado, just outside of it. I'm a licensed therapist, married to my wife for 13 years. She's amazing and wise and Wonderful. And we have a 12 year old son named Elijah who's just the best kid. He's into everything, just curious and just wise in his own way and just growing up so fast. So we're pretty active. We like to be outside in the Colorado area, you know, kind of, kind of required to be outdoorsy if you live here, I suppose.

Yeah, I think so.

Is that year round?

Well, we're not skiers and I get a lot of flack for that. So we're trying to get into skiing maybe this year, but I mean, it's a big to do.

Well, it's expensive and in Colorado you need like a small down payment on your house to go skiing.

Yeah. And the gear and the lift pass and all of that. But, I mean, I think we would get in trouble if we raised our son in Colorado and he didn't know how to ski, so. So we're trying to work on that. But yeah, we're basically two season Coloradans at this point, maybe three, you know, clinically speaking. So I, so therapy is a second career for me. I was working in nonprofits and churches all throughout my 20s and made the transition to counseling. Started working with, you know, teens and kids in the community mental health setting. So that whole transition from, you know, church work into therapy, there's a whole, you know, long story there. And maybe that's its own podcast. Yeah, yeah, but. But yeah, I went from little kids to teens to moving out to Colorado in 2019. And I took a, you know, just answered a flyer really on, you know, working with men in porn and sex addiction. And I didn't really understand why, you know, I was applying for a lot of things, just trying to find a. Trying to work out here. We wanted to move out to Colorado. My wife's a nurse, so she picked up a job right away, but took me a minute. And so I didn't understand why this therapist wanted to hire me. But I went to the interview because, you know, I had no experience in the, in the thing. And, and it turns out that childhood trauma that I was working a lot with has a lot to do with sex addiction. So there was a ton of overlap there. And I caught on pretty quick. So we, you know, 2019 and 2020, the program really started to grow. We were seeing 100 guys next year after that, I think we saw 150, 160 guys. Year after that, it grew even more. And, you know, this was at the time, this was, you know, our sister company, Begin Again Institute, was running these two week intensives and as the program kept growing, we started to see this Trend where like 60% or more of each cohort of, you know, 10 guys that came through was Christian men. And they had a different flavor, a lot of them to the other clients. There was maybe some increased amounts of shame, there was this kind of religiosity jargon, some hiding behaviors that were unique to them, but they also had some spiritual woundings and some disconnection with God. And there was this growing need that we saw within the team of like a program that was like specifically targeted for them that could be unapologetically clinical and unapologetically Christ centered and really approach these issues that way. And that's kind of where Boulder Recovery came from. And so we started that in 2020. And I've been the clinical director for the Begin Again and Boulder recovery since 2020. And yeah, the rest is kind of history there.

Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks for sharing all that with us. You know, it's cool to hear about, I think, organizations that are doing similar adjacent partnering. I mean, you know, like kind of the Venn diagram of how these organizations end up is really cool because we're doing the same work, right? Like, how do we help people to get to a place where they're healthier and you know, obviously discomfort, pain, whatever brings people in. And we know that process can be really lengthy and you know, there's different tasks and steps and modalities and dealing with that. How does an intensive fit into maybe the recovery journey of someone?

Well, yeah, that's a good question. I think, you know, when guys come into to treatment, you know, they come into it for a lot of different reasons, but a lot of the guys that come into treatment for us, they're kind of in this kind of foggy maze a little bit. They're kind of lost. They're kind of pumping the whole thing full of fog, sometimes on purpose, sometimes they don't know where they're going. Sometimes they're trying to confuse people that are trying to help them because they're not ready to get better yet. But there, but there's so many. There's so much data points for somebody who's struggling in their recovery. There's, you know, all the acting out behaviors and what do they mean and you know, different types of pornography or genres or, you know, fetishes or whatever. And they're all trying to psychoanalyze each one of these things. And then all my relationship with my mom and there's my dad and then there's this girlfriend and there's that. So they're trying to figure out like, how do all these data points fit together? And there's these confusing narratives a little bit there for them. And I think what an intensive can do is kind of shake all that out. Let's get at all that. Let's get to a why here and let's do some targeted work around that why to try to give you some more traction so that you can get a running start out of this program back into some consistent sobriety. And if we can flesh out like this is like the number one thing that guys say that they want to work on when they come to see us. I want to know why I do what I do. I've gotten a lot of tools around the what I need to do to help stop or kind of the behavior containment pieces. Or maybe they're connected with some resources, maybe they're not, but they're still wondering like, what's the why do I keep doing this, especially as a Christian, like, this is not part of my identity, this is not part of my values. It's not what I want. This is not what I want for my kids. But why do I do this? And I guarantee, folks, we may not be able to guarantee that you'll never act out again, but we'll help you find why it is we're doing what we're doing. I think that can be very powerful for men to get a hold of that why and get some work around that why and then be able to carry that into their kind of long term recovery once they leave.

Yeah, I think that's really valuable. What you say about getting someone out of their element, getting them into a place where they're kind of immersing themselves in recovery. And I didn't do an intensive in my journey, but it does make me think of like in my teenage and college days going to some sports camps where for a whole week, you know, you're out of your home, you're away from your family, and you're just focused on basketball. Like you eat, sleep and live basketball and you're practicing it and thinking about it and. And in that week you kind of make some tremendous strides. You figure out things in your game you really need to work on. And it's obviously not the only time you're ever going to play basketball, but it kind of allows you to take a big leap forward in an area that you really want to see traction. I just kind of putting that into recovery and say if we're in that place of recognizing I. I need something different. I need to take kind of an immersive journey in that regard. And intensive makes a lot of sense to go into that kind of. I'm all in. And as I've said in other places, it's like putting your money where your mouth is. You've told people, probably your spouse, I'm all in on recovery. And an intensive might be that step to show I really want to immerse myself in a healing journey. And intensives can be a big part of that.

Yeah, I think that's a beautiful, accurate metaphor. You know, keeping guys in the work in that intensive setting. Man, you're right. The traction that you can get there is really remarkable. And one of the things I love about it is that we don't have to get out, we don't have to transition out of the work. Right. The whole program is designed for the healing process. So there's not this like seat belt moment that I call it, you know, when you're leaving week to week therapy, you get in your car, you click your seatbelt, and then I'm off to work, I'm off to home, I'm off to my next thing. And I may have left some stuff in the therapy office and it's not following with me, but in an intensive setting, it's. That's what we're talking about at breakfast. That's what we're talking about on the hike. That's what we talked about in therapy during the day. That's the dinner conversation. We have a meeting every night. I mean, we're just. Yeah, we're in it. Yeah. Yeah.

It seems like there's a lot, a lot less potential for the compartmentalization that happens. Right. With our in office clients where they come in and it takes them, you know, several minutes just to like settle.

Right.

I mean, like, like screeching halt right before session, you know, and now it's like, all right, let's talk about deep things. And it doesn't matter if it's a 50 minute hour or we do hour and a half sessions. Either way, there's a portion of that time where they're just like, like maybe settling in and trying to figure out where they even are. Right?

Yeah. And compartmentalization is the right word for it. And I think one of the biggest things there is, you know, we're all carrying it around in our pockets, Right. And the guys, they turn in their phones, they turn in their laptops. You know, there's no Internet connectivity. So that's a huge Part of it is, okay, eliminating distractions, tearing down those compartmentalized, you know, walls. You know, that lunch tray that I've set up in my life where my, you know, my peas never touch my carrots, my Christianity never touches my addiction. Right. And how do we just, you know, shove that all together and try to be one person for two weeks and see how that feels and what could come from that? Yeah, that's really exciting.

Yeah. So I think, Matt, when a lot of people think of intensives or like inpatient care or on site recovery, they may have heard of some 60 and 90 day programs, you know, longer live in, like go to the woods, be removed for a long time. But Boulder practice is a two week model. So why, you know, what are the advantages of doing a two week model versus someone that maybe engages in 60 or 90 day programs?

Yeah, well, I think some of it's, you know, obvious, but like, we, we designed the program this way for accessibility. We wanted treatment, serious, intense, clinical, you know, spiritual treatment to, you know, to be accessible. And the problem, you know, I say problem loosely because I really respect a lot of the programs in that space, like 30, 69 for sure. Some of them are doing amazing work and we're not in competition with them. We're trying to come alongside those programs too. But the accessibility can be hard because I got to exit my life for two, three months. Right. I've got a. They're very expensive because of that length of time for the housing and just the clinical time. And so costs are high. Time cost is really high. We want to be accessible to, you know, missionaries. We want to be accessible to pastors. We want to be accessible to people that can't hit the eject button on their life, you know, or don't have the resources to pay for, you know, traditional treatment. And we can keep costs low or at least reasonable in that two week format. And people can just take vacation time, you know, PTO and come and be with us and. And not have to quit their jobs or, you know, create these kind of serious disruptions. And I don't think we sacrifice anything in quality either, because when we, when we get down to the brass tacks and the bare bones and we take out, you know, pottery and arts and crafts or whatever and just pick, you know, fixate on the work, we can get a lot out of those two weeks.

Yeah, yeah. I think part of what I hear you saying is like, there's benefit to a 30, 60, 90 day. Right. There's benefit to an inpatient or outpatient And I think historically, like the church, in trying to step into a clinical world, also carried with it the old idea that we, that even the local church has to be like the one stop shop, right, for everything. And instead there's this, there's this two week intensive that is providing an opportunity not to replace necessarily, right, but to say, hey, there's some people that maybe they, like you said, they are a missionary on furlough. Like maybe whatever their world is, like, like maybe they're a single parent, right? Whatever their world is, doesn't allow them either financially or whatever their resources are, even as time, as a resource to go and do that. And you know, instead of trying to be the answer, right, like we see collectively that they're like, there's more there, right? Like to, to, to quote the Lego Batman movie, we need a village, not a Batman, right? Like there's not just one spot where, where, where. So I mean like I've referred clients to Boulder Recovery, right? Like, like people that I've been working with, you know, for up to a year, but they're at a spot where it seems like you know what they're doing. There's something else, some adjacent work to what we've been doing where you can take all the work that you've been putting in over the last year and really like resource that into something that is not different or better or. But just like the continuing participation in this. And, and I hear you saying, like, there's this, there's this, there's stuff that can happen in two weeks. That's phenomenal. Uh, and it's not to say this is the way, but man, like to have that as, as a support, as an option is just, Is phenomenal.

Yeah. And I think I like what you're saying, Matt. The reality that not everyone can quit their job or just uproot their life for two, three months. And what I think tends to happen then is people only consider an intensive when it's that extreme situation. Like I've lost my career, I've got nothing else, everybody knows what I've done. That's the person that goes to an intensive or to a recovery program versus saying no, if, if we're at a place we're motivated to change and we know we need to take a deeper step. Something like Boulder with two weeks now becomes an option where I don't necessarily have to wait until I've lost everything to go to that measure, but I can begin to get some really, really significant help before that happens.

Yeah, you're 100% right. I mean, there, there's that, there's a, just. We saw a hole in the, in the treatment field there of like, well, what's, what's the in between step between ejecting on my life and doing nothing at all? Well, and can we make that time? Not some kind of bargain bin thing. We're like, oh, I can't afford to, you know, go for a month, so I'll just take this cheaper route. No, like, no high quality, high standards, you know, where, where guys are walking away with real change, real heart level experiences. And that's what I'm the most proud of about Boulder Recovery is that our alumni are our marketing department. I mean, they, they go and they talk about what they've experienced and they, they share it with guys in their groups and their Pure desire groups and the Samson Society. And, and that's how we get a lot of our clients is like there was two or three guys in their group that went to Boulder and they said, you gotta go. And so, yeah, I'm really proud of that.

And I also hear that you have comfortable beds and good food. So I mean like, you know, it doesn't hurt. Yeah.

Yeah.

So, you know, historically, stepping into helping addicts left spouses out. And you know, I read in your bio, right. That you're. I've done some AppSats training and so it sounds like partner caring for a betrayed spouse is really important to the work that you do there. Like even in just the approach to this, like, how does that play into supporting a spouse that's been betrayed?

Well, you know, when I first started, you know, we were a really small shop and I was the only full time therapist. And so not only was I working with the men, I was interfacing with their partners at home too, a lot. And what I learned really quickly was the depth of the pain and the dysregulation and the hurt there and the betrayal. And not just that, but the upending of the life. Right. The life that I thought I had. And there wasn't a lot that we were doing when we first started to help them. We try to give them a voice, give them an opportunity to speak into the treatment. But we found out pretty quick is that a lot of these partners, they need a place where they can go to not be in isolation. They need a place where they can go and be heard and hear somebody say, yeah, me too. And they need access to resources. They need to learn about, you know, what, what is out there for them and what avenues of healing exist for them. And so we started this kind of online support program that ran, you know, with the men's program so the men would be with us in Colorado. And, you know, with the advent of zoom and all that, we were able to bring on some incredible absat coaches to facilitate these support meetings. And, you know, they get to sit in a support call before the men went to treatment and then four times during the treatment and then once after the men got home. And to really. Yeah, like I said, educate, provide resources, provide a safe space. Not to just bash, you know, their addiction partners. But what's the next healing step? For me, I'm spinning out how do I get the truth? What is a full disclosure? What even is that? So I'm really proud of that aspect of the program and having the quality of coaches that we have in Lori hall and Crystal Botero Rand and the way they're able to come alongside these women and support them as their husbands and, you know, are in treatment. It's a profound thing, you know, to be a part of. And I know a lot of programs do that too. But I think it's a really important piece of process because especially in two weeks, let's just be honest, like some guys, they're not going to tell us everything, but when we're in contact with their partner, then we may get a bigger picture of what's happening. And so that's important too.

Yeah. Well, I love the way it changes. Like you said, a lot of programs do something like that, but I don't think that's always been the paradigm, because the paradigm has been you go away, you get fixed, you get better, you come home, and we assume that we'll all be okay. And yet ignores the relationship dynamic, the lack of trust, the hurt, the pain, and the fear of do I really know what's going on? Is there really change or are they just keeping a lid on it better than they were before? And so this acknowledges there's a couple that needs to heal together. And I know that's so important for us at Pure Desire that it's a family system. And when the couple heals together, that is the greatest likelihood of ongoing success. Because now there's kind of mutual support. There's an ability to talk openly in areas and in ways they weren't able to before and ultimately to create that connection in the relationship that was probably missing. Maybe they had physical connection at some level, but probably not a deeper, heart level emotional connection that really can come when both parts of the couple are getting some care. And some support to move towards recovery.

Yeah, yeah, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, what we're dealing with isn't a compulsive behavior per se. It's an emotional issue. It's an intimacy disorder. Right. It's an inability for me to connect with somebody else. Authentic and vulnerable and intimate level. And that's not a one person issue. That's impacting their marriage, that's impacting their parenting. If I can't be vulnerable, if I can't open up emotionally, if I can't connect with you, then you either get to survive on the table, scraps of whatever I can toss out your way, or you get used to it and you get numb to it. You just think this is just what, you know, marriage is or what I'm going to get, right? And to be able to reach into that family system and say no. Like, this isn't just about him stopping acting out. It's actually about intimacy and a renewal in what we call restoring the power of intimacy. Right. And what that could mean for you. Not just the addict, but everyone in their life. So we got to have touch points with them if that's going to be effective. And, and we have to learn how their dynamic is and how it's kind of replaying those traumatic wounds all over again and, and then be able to give the proper referral for this family unit on the next step of their healing journey, you know?

Matt, Boulder Recovery operates off a foundation, I think you already mentioned it, called the TINSA Model of Recovery. Give us an overview for some of our listeners that's brand new. What is the TINSA model?

Yeah, well, TINSA stands for Trauma induced Sexual Addiction. So, you know, the theory there, and without getting into the weeds, is, you know, in broad strokes, that sex addiction arose to regulate a dysregulated nervous system, and that dysregulated nervous system was dysregulated by trauma. So what we look at sex addiction through that traumatic lens and not just through the lens of coping, but actually through contact with the nervous system. So a lot of recovery techniques and tools are up here. They're, they're, they're cognitive, they're thought stopping, they're, you know, think about this thing differently or, you know, you know, some of them are behavioral, you know, barriers, you know, filtering softwares or different programmatic things that you can do, you know, meetings and such. None of those things are bad, okay? Like having a filter on your phone, you know, having a going to meetings, you know, meeting with your csat that's all necessary. But if I'm not engaging directly with my nervous system in how I regulate around temptations to act out or distress in my life that might move me to act out, then I'm missing a really important step. And that's what makes TINSA different than a lot of other approaches out there. We call it a bi directional approach. We're going to engage with all that root trauma and see how it's dysregulated the nervous system, and then also bring in tools that directly address that dysregulation. And then in combination, I'm going to be a lot more successful in my recovery.

Yeah. One of the things that we talk about with clients is the idea of the polyvagal theory and how this isn't just. You're saying we're not just trying to do things here. Because one of the things that we have to talk about with clients is, hey, when we talk about your heart, we're not talking about here, we're talking about here. And so maybe for the first time, we're getting them to think about all of that's happening here. But the reality is it isn't just happening here. Right. That polyvagal theory is, is that you've got this vagus nerve that really connects to so much more than just here. Right. And so it sounds like you're incorporating some skills and some tools into the recovery process for them that they can take out of their two week intensive. And so it's, it's practicing it maybe while they're there for two weeks, if I'm understanding correctly, and then they're taking it home with them.

Right.

Because maybe before you respond to that, you know, one of the other thoughts that we have, like the sexual, sexual addiction has more to do with how we've learned to process pain and fear in life than it has to do with sex. Right. And so. Right. As an attachment or an intimacy disorder. And pain and fear is, is inevitable, is unavoidable in this universe. Pain and fear, you know, is part of it on this side of the garden, between Genesis 3 and Revelation 21. Right. However we want to box this in, we. We're stuck with pain and fear. Yay.

Yeah.

And so it sounds like, yeah, well, you're right. And, and that's the challenge is, is as Christians, we're like, no, you know, I, I don't claim that for myself. Well, I'm so sorry, but like, this is what the Bible says, right? Like you're bookended between these things and this Is our experience. And so, yeah, so it sounds like is that part of what you do is give some tools and skills to. To. To help with that regulation once they leave?

Absolutely. You know, we want to equip them with those things, but, you know, we want to tell the story differently about what has happened. That's what I tell clients all the time, is sex addiction is a story I tell myself about sex and pain, the hurt that I've been through, and then what sex is going to be able to do about it. It's just a story that I'm telling about those things, and it might not be the right story because sex doesn't actually do the thing that I want it to do. It doesn't actually solve the thing that I want it to solve. It can't do those things. So I first have to get into contact with, well, what happened there? When did these real needs become sexualized? What were the events that were going on? What were my relationships like? What were my attachments? Where was the wounding and the breaking down of those attachments? And then how does that affected me? Somatically. Yeah. Right. Then out of that, how do I learn to tell a different story about these things that have happened to me or begin to validate and connect and empathize with myself? Now, I'm an absat. Okay. So I'm a big believer in betrayal, trauma, and that perspective. And some partners are uncomfortable when we talk about that and say, hey, it's really important that this guy connects with himself, empathizes with himself, validates his own story. But they don't have a shot at empathizing with you and your pain if they can't first connect to their own hurt and pain.

Sure.

Right. And they have to draw from somewhere. And I say, you know, you have to connect with your own experiences and feel with the hurt and pain of those experiences so that you can feel with the hurt and pain of somebody else. And if I. If I skip that first part, then I'm just gonna be faking it.

Yeah.

And fake empathy is. It's. It stinks. And then partners can smell it a mile away. Yeah.

It makes me think. One of the books that I stumbled across early in my recovery is by Anthony DeMello called Awareness. And in that book, he says that the way to, you know, overcome something or to solve it isn't to fight against it, because the more energy you put into fighting against it, you're actually giving it that energy. The way to solve it is to see through it, to see its function. And Then it will just, in his words, it will just drop off. And I wish it was that easy to just drop off. But I do think that principle is accurate, of seeing through it, is telling myself a more accurate story about where did this come from? Why did I enter into these behaviors? What function or role did it play in my life? And why am I in a place now as an adult that I don't need to cope or function in the way that I used to? And it reminds me too of a story early in my recovery with one of our counselors. As I'm kind of recounting, how do you feel about your addicted nature? And for me, it was all anger and hate and this part of me that's so stupid and dumb and I'm sick of it. And he kind of paused as I shared a lot. And he asked me a question. He said, you know, Nick, have you ever thought of thanking that addictive part of your life and your past? And I'm like, what? Why would I ever thank this part of me that did all these horrible things and caused all these pain? And his comment was, well, Nick, it sounds like for a season in your life as a teenager when you were facing a lot of rejection, fear, pain, uncertainty, this addict part of you helped you feel comforted, safe, enjoyed, pleasured, wanted, and that maybe was needed. Not, you know, and we can all acknowledge wasn't in a great way. It was what you would have called a sinful way, but it fulfilled a role for you that you needed and wasn't coming from other people in your life. What if you could thank that part of yourself for the role that it played and say, and now I don't need you to play that role anymore because God has helped me to see other better ways to get those needs met. And it just. Whether someone out there wants to thank their addict past or not, doesn't matter to me. But I think the greater part is just seeing that man. There is a story that I tell myself that is either all this battle, fight against, shame on me, get rid of it, that may actually be keeping me trapped in it versus a more open handed, help me understand, help me see, help me learn what was going on and the why behind it all that might actually set me free to grow beyond it with the help of God and others.

Yeah, I feel like what you're addressing is like some good ifs, right? Like that we're not shaming those parts of ourselves that, that like there's. There is a part of us that needs, that really needs to be validated, right? That, that as Christ took our shame upon him like he took, he took your shame. And so like it's appropriate for you to have empathy for yourself, right? For you to try to keep your shame seems to be contrary to the work, to the salvific work of Christ on the cross. And however, like you had mentioned, like you're also, we're also working with betrayed spouses. So it's like we're holding this tension between how do we, how do we acknowledge and validate your trauma and your pain, right. While also validating like the trauma and pain of a betrayed spouse. There's a great book called Good Inside. It's a parenting book, but it has some gems in there. One of the things that it talks about is, is, is allowing two things to be true. And that if we only feel, if we only allow one thing to be true and that's say our reality, then we're going to be working to try to convince everyone else that our reality is the one that's true. But if we hold, if we allow space for two things to be true, then really what comes out of that is understanding.

Right?

And so it's like for, for a recovering addict to allow their trauma and, and to be true in the sense that they have appropriate desires, God given desires for attachment, for connection, for nurture and care that weren't met, that have played into their addiction while at the same time having a betrayed spouse, right. Who's dealing with all of their broken trust and power differential and all the things they're going through and that the.

One doesn't negate or nullify the other.

No, no.

Right.

And it's so difficult sometimes times because we want to care for both people in this space. But if the, if the addict's trauma and their experience isn't validated and cared for, then they're not going to also allow for their spouse's reality to be true. Right. They're going to be convincing. And then, and then we can come at that clinically as like denial or blame or lack of responsibility. Right. And, and it just, it gets, it gets so messy when we can't validate what any person's trauma or reality is.

I think that's so true because like the addict brain wants to make everything black and white, right? It's either all good or all bad. And holding two ideas that seem to be different or even contrary to one another at the same time feels impossible. But that's exactly what I say to guys in our program. All of the time I'm sitting there with both my hands turned up just like you. Okay, I see it, right? Which are you? Are you a victim of trauma or a perpetrator of trauma? Yeah. Right. And you. Well, the, the trick is that you don't have to choose, right? I actually have to hold both of these things. I have to honor the fact that I was victimized in trauma as a young person and I needed to find some outside in coping to. To deal with that. But I have become now a perpetrator of trauma in my addiction and wounding other people. If I let go of the fact that I was a victim of trauma and just hold on to the fact that I'm hurting people, then you get guys saying, I'm a monster. I'm a terrible person. I don't deserve love. I don't deserve any good things. I'm just this sex monster pervert over here, right? And that's all shame. And I'm not going to get better in that shame, okay? That were these bad people do bad things, right? That's, that's, that's all that I have in store for me, right. If I let, but if I let go of the fact that I have perpetrated trauma into other people's lives and only grasp onto the fact that I'm always a victim of trauma, then I'm not accountable for this that I've done. I'm always the one on the wrong side of the. The stuff. And I'm, you know, and I can't hear your hurt or pain, right? So I have to hold both of these things and I have to hold them equally. And I think you're right. That's what healing really looks like, is being able to, to hold two things at once. Yeah.

So, you know, there's a lot of things that go into, like, anybody's recovery journey. How does somebody know that maybe an intensive is correct for them? Like, what kind of preparation do they need to have before they step into a program like yours?

Well, that's an interesting question because, you know, we, we really see three types of clients. And I'm not sure I'm going to answer your question, like, maybe right on the nose, but maybe somewhere here I don't find the answer to it. But, you know, there's this first type of client where there's no preparatory part involved. The prep is they just got caught, right? And, and it's been a week, it's been a month, you know, and they're in crisis and their partner is saying, you need you Got to go do something. You got to get, you know.

Yeah.

Or else.

Yeah, yeah. And then we'll have guys say, well, you know, I wasn't necessarily forced to be here, but, you know, I was strongly encouraged, you know, things like that. And, and we do really good work with those guys because a lot of times those guys need. They're. They're. They're new, they're green. Right. They don't have recovery experience, they don't have, you know, meeting experience, they don't have a sponsor, you know, all this stuff. And, and they need education on what recovery, a lifestyle of recovery really looks like. And they need a running start into that work. But we also get a lot of guys who have been in those spaces for a while, and they can't stop relapsing. And they need to do that deeper work to find some traction in their sobriety and learn new methods of interacting with their nervous system and somatically to pay attention, you know, around their trauma memories and what triggers those and how to tell that in their body and then how use tools to regulate that and use even contemplative Christian tradition to approach their relationship with God in a new way, a way that involves presence to God and presence to the moment, in their breath, in meditation, and things that are a part of our Christian tradition, but that we sometimes lose and than evangelicalism or things like that. Not that that's bad, but. And then there's this third guy who has maybe achieved some sobriety, maybe sometimes, you know, more than a year, but they're still struggling with rage or depression or anxiety or, you know, this stuff we call like, like dry drunk kind of behaviors. And they really need to do a deeper dive on what's going on there. And their partner doesn't believe that they're sober because they're doing all of these. Sure. They lack emotional sobriety, we might say. So we see those three type of guys, and if anybody falls into those categories, they're a good fit because they're all kind of dealing with the same stuff at the root of it. And some guys come in with that state of mind of like, hey, I'm going to tackle this. Some guys come in at the end of a shotgun, so to speak, and in it. But we're ready to help guys get settled in and get to work. Regardless of, you know, the prep work, it's always great where we can engage with their treatment program at home, you know, their provider at home and see what they've been working on and how do we, you know, further those goals and things like that. That's always ideal, but we don't always, you know, have the luxury of that.

Sure.

Yeah. Well, it makes me think of when guys come into group, there's always mixed motives. There's a spouse that's making them go. There's, I got caught and I need to do something. There's frustration. And I've. I've said in many groups, like, whatever got you here, it doesn't really matter. The point is, you're here and whatever motivated you, if that's enough to get you going, to get you some consistency, I believe over time you're going to start to do the work that you need to do that will help you see why you're here. And eventually you'll do it because you see the value, not because of all these other reasons. Wherever you start, I think there is always a part of us, except in some of those situations, you know, where someone is desperate, like, I'm here because I have to be. Probably most of us start recovery with some sense of, like, I don't know if this is really, for me, I'm not probably quite the right fit fit. Or I don't know if this program's a good fit. Like, we're skeptical because we've been trying to do it on our own for so long. We've lived with some degree of rationalizing or minimizing our behavior that keeps us from engaging in our own recovery. And I would just want to say, like, I feel like that's normal. Whether we're talking about a group or counseling or an intensive. If there's a party that's like, well, I don't know if I'm the right fit. And I don't. You're downplaying it. But there's something in you that says, but I think I want to do that, then I'd say go for it because you're in good company. Let me just put it that way. You're in good company. If there's a party that feels like you don't really know if you need it, you don't know if it'll be a fit. If you see something that might add value to your recovery, create the transformation you're looking for, then why wouldn't you. Why wouldn't you pursue something that you see potentially having that ultimate good in your life?

Yeah, it's cheaper than divorce, too.

Yeah. Cheaper than divorce, too. Yeah.

Yeah.

Cheaper than a lot of the way things that could go with that. This is just a short answer. Probably isn't really a number with this. I mean, do you have guys show up that are really just there to put out a fire and not to engage? And how do you get them to engage? Addicts are always. I remember Dr. Carnes saying, addicts are always prepared to put out a fire. Right.

Well, I mean, that's a great question. I love those type of clients. I really do. You know, there. There are some that want to come in and they want to be the A student and they want to be the best client you've ever had. And they're dealing with something else there too, of some people pleasing or whatever. But they're the guys that come in and they're resistant and they're saying, you know, that I'm skeptical about this process and I don't think this is going to work for me and I don't know if I really want to. Want to be here. There's some anger there and we can work with that. There's some resentment there and we can work with that too. And it doesn't take too much poking to get that to come out. And when you can say with somebody like, hey, man, I see that you're really angry with this process and you're maybe even really angry with me, but I mean, you don't know me from Adam, like we just met yesterday. Why are you, why are you so angry at me? What do I represent for you? Right. And we can get at that stuff quickly. My really good friend and co worker here, Nate Guyer, he says, you know, compliance is sometimes the most sophisticated form of resistance. There's some. The guys that are tough are the guys that come in and they play possum, we call it. They just go with the flow and they don't argue about anything and they don't really have a lot to share and they're kind of sitting in the corner. Right. You've noticed that maybe they haven't even said anything in a day or two and they'll tell you, oh, this is great. This therapy is awesome. This is so great. But they had not intended on doing anything different.

Yeah, just get it over with.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It can sometimes take a couple of days to realize that somebody is trying to play possum. But ultimately they have to choose what they're going to give to this process because that's what they're going to get out of it. And nobody can make you choose.

And maybe that leads to the next question I want to ask because I think whether we're leading people through a group experience or a counseling journey or a two week intensive. We've seen people that thrive and are really growing and transforming and taking those next steps. And we've seen people that stumble along and stay stuck. In your experience, what are some of the difference makers between those that you watch thrive in recovery and those that stumble along and will probably be back again or will need to go to another intensive somewhere else? Like, what are some of the distinctions you've seen?

There's two things that come to mind when you say that. One that we've already talked about is just empathy. Like when I start to see them making the connection around empathy that, that other people's emotions are valid and real and they start to get curious about other men's emotions that are in the program with them and to come alongside them and to be a part of this together, right? We tell the guys, hey, you can't. Addiction is about isolation. Recovery is about community. And if you're going to really get a hold of this, then you're going to have to connect with these other nine guys that you came in and thought they were weird and they were strangers to you and they were just lined up at the airport to get into the weird white van, you know, but these guys are your brothers, right? And when they start to empathize with each other and they start crying when guys are telling their stories and they, you know, they're getting in touch through somebody else's work, and then when it comes to the partner work and they're reading, you know, these letters that their wives prepare for them to read, and they're, they're, they're weeping over the hurt and pain that they've caused. Not the, not how bad they feel about themselves, but the connection to the hurt and the pain that they've caused because they've sat with her. So when you see that empathy, then that's, that's a really great sign. And I tell guys all the time, if, you know, you have a, you have a much better chance of success and recovery if you can go home and take what you've learned here to create a container where your wife's hurt and pain, because that's what's really been sabotaging the healing process. You said correctly, right, that the best way to heal is to heal together. But if I can't hold her pain, then, like, we're just going to keep, you know, knocking into each other and triggering each other and hurting, and then there's going to be more gaslighting and lying and pain to avoid her Anger or whatever. And in learning that container, it's the best way to create safety. And when I create safety in that relationship, then, you know, the system begins to calm down. But the other thing. The other thing that I see is when guys are come to the point and they say, I will do whatever it takes, they're not telling me what. Well, what about her and her stuff or. Well, she has this boundary, and I don't like that very much. And, you know, she wants me to do this and, oh, she wants me to go to meetings, but I can't go to these meetings. And she wants me to go to, you know, this church thing, but, you know, I can't because I have to work. There's just, you know, all these, like, I can't. And, oh, nos. And what about this and what about her and all that stuff? When all that kind of falls away and a guy just looks, you know, up from the ground and says, I'm. I don't care. I'll do whatever it takes. And they stop dying on every hill. That's when you see the change, I think, in these families. That's when you see it.

That's powerful.

Yeah.

That's beautiful.

I don't have anything to add to that.

Well, I think it's true. I mean, and it takes some time to get there, Right. Like, there's some. There's some hills that I want to die on before then. Oh, do I really want to give my life to this? Do I really want to validate her hurt and pain? Because. Because then it'll just keep coming, right? And. And I'll always be the bad guy, and I'll always be one down from her. And. And I don't want to. I don't want to give up my power. And. And it's. It's all these dead ends, really. But when I. When it clicks that I actually get everything I need by giving myself away to this other person, like the. Everything I need comes back to me. That's transformation. Right. And that's. That's the power of the gospel within treatment.

Yeah.

Because Jesus is the ultimate model of that, of giving himself away and in the process, getting everything in return. Right.

Yeah.

Everything in heaven and earth, you know, laid at his feet as the one who ultimately gave himself away. Right. And there's so much beauty in the redemption story of the gospel and in. When it's paired up in recovery and that. Wow. I've been fighting so hard to make sure I get my needs met. I had no idea that surrendering and giving myself away was actually the highway.

Yeah.

To getting all my needs.

Amen.

Being known is so scary.

Right.

But yet. And yet being known is this avenue towards health. And we can't be known in isolation. Right. Like, relationship is the conduit to health. Health is not the conduit to relationship. Like, we have. We can only get healthy in relationship as we're known. Even though that's so scary.

Yeah. Yeah. It makes me think of kind of that principle that if. If I could get where I wanted to go with what I've already got, I probably would have gotten there already. But the reason I'm not there is because there's things I don't know. There's things I need that others can provide. And that was advice I got in that first year of, like, Nick, you've tried everything, you know, to do, and you're still stuck. Don't you owe it to yourself in your marriage, like, to go let somebody else tell you what you need and actually listen to them? Like, if they give you advice, they're not just trying to make life hard on you. Right. They actually want to help you, and they have a perspective that may be different and better than your own. And because you've tried it, you've tried it on your own, why not listen to someone else? And that. That kind of lowered some of my defense. It was like, you know, you're right. I've. I've tried what I've got, and it's not working. I'll take these steps. So, Matt, I love what you guys are doing. So thankful for bolder recovery and for joining us today as we look to wrap up today. Any encouragement or final words that you would like to leave with our listeners today?

You know, just really what you said there, we say that all the time, too. Like, hey, your best thinking got you here, so maybe we try something different. But I think what guys are looking for, too, is in that why. And in that I want to heal my marriage. And I want, you know, to live a healthy life or a new life. Right. They also want to make sense of what happened to them. And whether they get admitted or not, they've been through hard. Some hard stuff. You know, we wouldn't require addiction to cope if we haven't been through that kind of hurt and pain. I think what makes Boulder really special is not only can we speak to that clinically, but we can speak to that through the cross, that the most impactful present moment in all of time was a moment of suffering. Right. The gospel tells us that suffering means something, that it matters, and that this isn't just senseless, right? That God is doing something and drawing him or drawing us to himself in that. What is God doing in your addiction, in your addiction recovery that, you know, can we, can we see that? Or are we just waiting or trying to get God to like us through our sobriety? And helping guys maybe give up on that fight of trying to prove that they're worthy of God's love through sobriety and realize that they are already in it and that they can seek sobriety from a place of being loved, not so that they can receive love. So if anybody's listening to this and that resonates with them, then I would encourage you to, you know, you know, look, look us up, you know, boulderrecovery.com begin againinstitute.com it'll take you to the same place. And you can check out our Christian program or our secular program. If you just want to get out of that headspace and just approach these things clinically, then sometimes that's a good fit for some people. So I respect that, too. But, yeah, we're running programs every couple of weeks all year.

So, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. And we'll put all that in the show. Notes, Matt, Encourage people to follow up with you guys. I know many of us in recovery have said to a spouse or a loved one, at some point, I will do whatever it takes to recover, to get better. And in some stories, an intensive experience like Boulder might be part of putting our money where our mouth is, taking those steps to face the problem, to get the help and resources we need. And so we're glad that Boulder exists and that you all are a trusted partner with us here at Pure Desire. So, Matt, thanks for joining us today on the podcast.

Thanks, Matt.

Thanks for having me, guys. This was great.

Yeah. And if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe. Share this with somebody. Write us a review. It helps other people get in touch with healing resources. And if you want more information on peace, Pure Desire, groups, resources, or counseling, go to PureDesire.org journey on. My friends, you are not alone.