380 - Caring For Partners Well

Foreign. Hello there, good listener. Welcome back. I'm your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today you are tuning in for episode 380 and here joining me again is a guest co host, Ashley Jamison, our director, associate director of women's groups. Ashley, welcome back to the podcast.

Hi. I'm so glad to be here again. As always, love, love doing these with you.

Yes, we are very excited about today's episode and the guest we had on because for the last several years, Pure Desire has been connecting with an organization called the association of Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists, which is a mouthful. So it's affectionately known more commonly just by the initials appsats. And our guest today is the president of appsats, Jeanne Vitoni. As we found out, a nice Italian ring to a Jeanne Vattoni. So, Ashley, why are you excited for our listeners to hear from Jeanne today and the conversation we had?

For me, it's just great to have somebody that's in there working day in and day out with appsats that can just show our listeners who they are. Because I feel like as we get to know people, we hear voices, we get to hear more of why the organization started, what they do, what the heart is behind it. It makes it easier for us to reach out and, and just having more networking. I mean, we're Pure Desire and we, we, we offered a little bit for the addict, a little bit for the betrayed spouse, a little bit for the church and the parent. But, but there's so much work to be done and there's so many different starting points for people. So being able to highlight an organization that we really like, we like what they do, we value their work, we value their training, is exciting for me today. I just loved their training that I went through.

Yeah. And we were reminded today, Jeanne brought it up, that Dr. Barb Stephans started Appsats and she wrote a book along these lines. And when this was starting in 2012, this was pretty new. And in some ways, we're still in that phase of helping educate Christian leaders, churches, ministries, that the betrayal side of addiction and sexually compulsive behavior is real and needs to be addressed. And I hope that is compelling as people listen that if we're involved in a ministry where we're still, we just got to help the men quit looking at porn. While that's valuable, we're only covering half the story. And I hope today's conversation gets us thinking about what does it look like to care for a couple and to care for both partners that both have their own needs in a recovery journey. So a little bit more about Jeanne as we jump in. Jeanne has helped those affected by traumatic experiences. For over 25 years, she's worked in academic, legal, social justice and community settings assisting and treating trauma survivors. Jeanne is a certified Clinical Partner Specialist supervisor with appsets. She is a CSAT supervisor and a certified partner Trauma therapist supervisor. So she's a smarty pants. She's very relatable and just had great things to say today. She's also certified in brain spotting and emdr. So she is a busy gal. She embraces the trauma model for her work with partners as well as addicts and often speaks in the community about sex addiction and the trauma model. She's been on the AppSat's board of directors since 2018 and currently serves as their president. So, together with her colleagues, Jeanne hosts the podcast Conversations on Sex Addiction and Relationships. So here is our conversation with Jeanne Vittoni on Caring for Partners. Well, well, Jeanne, thanks so much for joining us today on the Pure Desire podcast. It's good to have you.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here and a true honor. I'm excited, excited to talk to you both.

Well, so are we. We're excited. And as a first time guest to the podcast, we would love for our listeners to hear a little bit about you, your family, who you do life with, and about the organization that you lead. So tell us, who is Jeanne and who is appsats?

What a great question. Who is Jeanne? So well, first, I am a married woman and with two grown kids, so family is very important to me. And I've been a clinician for 25 odd years, so that's a definite part of who I am. I have worked with folks enduring, surviving, thriving out of trauma the entire career, starting back to grad school when I worked in the projects, and then in child protective services and residential treatment and then trauma with sex assault and violence, natural disasters, then finally to betrayal trauma about 14, 15 years ago. So I'm definitely someone who likes to meet new people, which is another reason I'm glad to be here today and exploring and traveling. So that's, that's a little bit about me. Absats. ABSATS is the association of partners of sex addict trauma professionals. So the important trauma specialist. Excuse me. I first came to know Absats in 2012 when it had first launched and I was in my CSAT training and I wasn't quite jiving with some of the treatment protocols out there because of all my history and working with folks with trauma. I really saw a trauma symptomology with folks who were betrayed. So when I met Barb Stephens in 2012 at the Sash conference and Sash for some is Society of Advancement Sexual Health, I went, oh, these are my like minded people. So I had a nice breakfast with them all and got really involved with ABsats and then became certified, became a supervisor, joined the board and currently I am the president since 2021. So Avsats is a training organization and that's a really important piece that we're not direct service, although I will get back to that in a minute because people can access the professionals who have trained with us. So we train coaches and clinicians in betrayal trauma, how to work with the betrayed partner and also the betrayer and their family. So we have the multidimensional partner trauma model. It's a four day training and that is the cornerstone. And we have more trainings I'm happy to tell you all about if you give me moments. But it's really a training organization that's dedicated to improving quality of care or betrayed.

Yeah. And Ashley and I are both big fans because we've both been appsatz trained and been through that model as well as the religious leaders training. Which would want to comment or hope at some point we can talk a little more about that. Because for patients, pastors and religious leaders to know that AppSats offers some training specifically around partner care. And I don't know that there's anything else of its kind like it out there that says hey Pastor, hey ministry leader, we can help get you some equipping in this area. And it's, it's really great training. So yeah, we're, we're big fans of all that.

Yeah, we, we, we nickname it btrl. So Betrayal Trauma Religious leaders. And these are exactly for what you were just saying, Nick. It's for the folks who are not necessarily coaches or clinicians because if you're a coaching clinician, we really encourage you to go to the MPTM four day. But we have a betrayal trauma religious leader program which is folks who are leaders in their religious communities of all faiths who want more information about how to work with and be sensitive to the betrayed person as well as the system. So that training is also a four day. The first two days are focused on what is trauma and how does that show up in folks and what does that mean and Then the second two days is really like, how do we bring that into your faith community? So it is a specialized training and it is exactly for the folks you just referenced, the religious folks who have trained but aren't in that educational route of coach or clinician.

Yeah, I know personally for me, as you shared all of your wonderful history of work that you've done, I'm just like, yes, I love all those things that you've been involved with. And then meeting Dr. Stefan's and, and, and realizing these are my people when it comes to what I'm seeing with betrayed spouses. And that's really how I felt when I discovered absats. I don't remember how many years ago it was, but you know, I've been at Pure Desire for nine years helping churches implement groups and, and use our curriculum. And we did start to see a shift in just what was available out there. New new research and understanding of betrayal trauma. And so it was one of those things like you're feeling it, you're seeing it, you're, you're, you're knowing and sensing that, that, that things are maybe a little different than what we originally thought or that there's new research to, and new new suggestions on, on how bring through betrayed spouses through that healing process. And, and so then going into the absence training, it was like, yes, this is officially what it is that you were sensing, feeling. Because when you're in the work with betrayed spouses, you, you see the patterns, you see what's working, you see what's not. And so to go to an organization that can take you through a front to back training to understand that was so refreshing and just really, really great. I loved the training. I'm a huge advocate and I just hope everybody goes through it. So with that, my next question for you is when someone's sex addiction comes to light, society is quick to find help for the addiction, um, but often ignores the partner or spouse who is wounded. So thankfully we are, like I said, starting to see a shift in this. Um, but why does partner care so often get overlooked?

You know, I, I'm curious what other folks would say to this because this would be my personal opinion on this one. I think it comes from a historical place. I think in the past, when working with addiction and other kinds of addiction, you had what we, what in the clinical world we call the identified patient, this is the person who has the addiction. So just they need to go to treatment, get help, seek counsel, get educated and not involving the rest of the family system that doesn't work with sex addiction. It just doesn't work when you have people who are in a committed relationship and one person's doing behavior or has secrets that is undermining what is going on for the other person in the relationship. There becomes this difference of power, because knowledge is power. So I think it comes from the old harkening of the way that addiction was treated. I also think that the systems way, the holistic way we're now looking at the picture, I think sex addiction is sort of leading the way into changing other modalities because you've got to involve the betrayed partner. You've got to involve the person who's in relationship with the addict because they're being so impacted on so many levels, as well as children. I think things are changing.

Yeah, I can see that too. You know, especially when. When we all shut down because of COVID and so. So many people went online. I think I even saw a shift in women are, you know, in our groups that I'm used to working with, let's say nine to, you know, six or were coming in really not knowing what they needed. And then once all the resources, podcasts, webinars, everybody went online, it's like, now you have women coming in saying, this is what I need, and maybe having a lot of ideas about what they need. But I was one of those women back even, you know, 11, 12 years ago when our discovery happened with my husband, where I didn't think I needed the help. So it's.

It.

I've seen that it's not even just the professionals or. Or the addicts that. That think it's only them that needs to be treated. But even as a betrayed spouse, I was like, this is your problem. You go get help. We wouldn't have problems in our marriage if you weren't doing this. And it wasn't until months after my husband was in a Pure Desire program and. And doing well. And I was angry because he was doing well, which meant like, well, you don't think I'm in pain anymore because you're doing well. That he. He said, I think you need help. And I was like, excuse me, but. But now I'm like, oh, I. I needed help. And so I. I can see that even on, like, some of the betrayed spouses, some are so hurt and they're desperate for help and don't know where to find it. But then others don't recognize that they have been wounded by this and that their relationship, if they're, you know, will not really get all the way better if they're both not in some kind of process of healing and freedom from that.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We do absolutely have. And I remember back, you know, when I started 2009, 2010, like, I can think of one book that was out, Betrayed Partners. Right. And then Dr. Barb Steffens came out and. Okay, all right. And we have now there are so many resources, so many resources that just like you said, people can go online. Well, what's this, what's this, what's this? But I do find there's still the folks who, partners included, this is not mine. You know, my partner needs to deal with that and then we'll all be better. Yeah. And what they're not knowing is they're, they're being impacted. They have been impacted. And, and so when they start to come in for help and then they start to go, oh, I didn't realize that this was probably connected to that. Oh, this is probably. So then they start seeing the levels and layers to the impact that they've experienced, which is why it's so important. So if anyone's out there and you're thinking maybe this is you, please reach out and do a little bit of research. There's a lot of resources. You don't have to engage with professionals if you're not ready. You know, just looking online at quality, up to date information, a lot's out there.

Yeah. Well, I like the fact, Jeanne, that you're referring to it as partner care, because I think that's one of the problems we can face is if both spouses get the message of, well, you need help as the addict and you need help as the spouse or you both have things to fix or to work on. And some of that is the co addict model of, well, yeah, you made the choices, but there were things in your relationship that were enabling you or where the spouse was. They need to fix stuff about them too. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is not my problem. We don't both need to be fixed. But if we have this mentality that says you need to work on a problem, but you as the spouse, you need care, you need support. And we've often used the metaphor of a car accident because I think it works in that it's a traumatic event. And maybe the driver, in this case being the addict or struggler, they made bad choices about how to drive and they need work on some driving skill or to correct their decisions. But everyone else in the car was impacted by what happened and they are going to need Care, they're going to need support, they're going to need to heal. And when you start using that kind of language, for a spouse to say, how has this impacted your mental well being? Does this keep you up at night? Do you have a hard time sleeping or functioning when you're worried about what's been happening in your marriage or what is your spouse doing like? And they say, well, yeah, but if they just fix the problem, doesn't that get better? Well, no, we see that you're going to need a process of care as well to understand what's happened to you and what does it look like to heal, to be able to walk in a place where you're stable, where you're secure, even if, as we see in situations, even if they don't do their work, you're going to need care because you are in the car, you were in the accident, and we want to support you however we can. And to help that mindset along, I think does shift people away from just fixing the problem like we talked about, or thinking that both people have things to fix, instead talking about it as care. So in terms of trauma, Jeanne@appsets, how do you define trauma? Because the question might be, does every partner who is married to someone that's acting out with pornography or other unwanted sexual behavior, is there always trauma or are there some cases where you might say, well, their trauma isn't the case here. What does that look like?

Yeah, I would say not all partners experience trauma. There are some partners who enter into relationships with knowledge and awareness that this addiction is a struggle or this person's in recovery. I don't think, and I've worked with some of those folks who don't feel like that necessarily is a match for them. See, and here's the thing is that we're not saying everybody is traumatized, we're saying lots of people are. And for those who are, you're not crazy making this up. What you're experiencing is trauma symptomology, which is very treatable, which can really, if you get in with a skilled person, you can have profound changes and heal and create this new level of functioning for yourself. So I do not think every betrayed partner has trauma. And I'd say lots of betrayed partners feel trauma on a spectrum of intensity.

Sure.

So when we say, well, what is trauma? You know, I go back to the good Dr. Barbara Steffens and her original study which showed that what, 70, 69 point something percent of the betrayed partners that she surveyed qualified for the diagnosis of ptsd. Now just to review, PTSD has numerous features to it. And actually I created a slide for abstats, well in my presentations outside of abstats, but brought it to abstats, which goes down the PTSD symptomology. And it shows you how betrayed partners may experience these things. So when we're talking about, you know, a heightened sense of arousal or reactivity, this is that short fuse, this is that trigger response. This is zero to mock hundreds, you know, in seconds. The mood volatility, happy, sad, scared, fearful, happy again, all in 25 minutes. You know, so then there's also the avoidance. I don't want to talk about it, or I don't want to see those people, or I don't want to go driving near those locations. Or we call intrusive thoughts nightmares. I'm in the garden and suddenly I'm thinking about this behavior or I haven't seen any acting out, but now I'm having images of it because my brain has created this imagery and it's intrusive. So those are the kinds of things that we would say create or the symptomology of trauma. Not everybody who experiences trauma can be diagnosed as ptsd. It's not what I'm saying, but I'm saying a significant number of people experience these traumatic symptoms.

Yeah. As a follow up question to that Genie, and I think this, we observe this. But it can be a little tough to know how to approach it is you do have spouses that might say, I'm not traumatized, I don't need group. And then you. And for a legitimate reason. And then you also have spouses that say that because they're in a form of trauma blocking or trauma avoidance. And it's easier to say, well, I have no trauma, when the truth is they have so much trauma they don't want to face it. And that can be delicate because you obviously don't want to go in accusing someone like, well, you're just blocking, you're just avoiding that. That can only make it worse. So how do you navigate that? And, and what, what response do you have for someone when you sense like you're saying you have no trauma. But I think maybe what's going on here is a form of trauma blocking or trauma avoidance.

Yeah. So now this is a Genie Vittoni responding, not an absence responding or a little bit of both.

Sure.

I think it's the gentle approach and that's, that definitely would be in absence as well, is the non judgmental, non critical approach. If you're feeling like this is not experience. Your experience. Okay, let me. Would you mind if I shared some information and you tell me if this matches anything for you?

Sure.

I think when you enter into it gently that way people, I kind of say, I'll throw all these things up in the air, which one, if any, are a match for you? And then they hear their story as I'm describing some of these pieces. Have you ever had this or wondered about that? Have you ever had this and wondered about that? So I think the important way is to not walk in and say you're traumatized, therefore you need fixing. By the way, I really bristle at that word fix because I'm like, ah, that's not fixing. But to walk in gently. And we say, come alongside. How can I help you in this moment? Here are some things to ponder, if you would. Would you mind if I shared? Because you're not going to get anywhere and nor do you want to make assumptions about someone else's internal world. So I'd say just a lot of respect and gentle approach.

Yeah. You know what I love about that genie is it does mimic what I think we need to do at times with the struggler or the addict. Because if you start to use words like addiction, there is many times a visceral response like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm not an addict, or it's not compulsive sexual behavior. And to have that kind of open, non judgmental response say, I appreciate that. Let me ask about a couple of things. You know, do you ever find that you're often preoccupied by these thoughts? Have you tried to stop and yet you find you go back? Have you promised a spouse or family member you're going to change only to find that a month or a year later you've gone back and you start listing some of those things, say, well, I love what you said. They find their story. They say, well, yeah, isn't that everybody? Or isn't that reality? It's like, well, no, that's a part of how we define compulsive behavior or addiction. And maybe you've minimized, but these are realities. And then that can open them up to see, maybe I need to pursue help and recovery more than I thought. When you have that approach.

Yeah, and I'm thinking the word is normalization. When you only know your internal or your, your coupleships experience, it becomes normalized. And so wait, like you said, well, isn't this everyone's experience? Well, actually, no, we're describing something that is difficult for a lot of folks over here. But betrayed partners will do that too, especially when it's one of the very first relationships or their first sexual relationships. Some things become normalized, and so they. They don't know that it could be different or it would be, you know, our description may be unhealthy, and so there is that. Let me share information and let's see if some of this connects to you, and then we'll take it from there.

Yeah, yeah, I love that approach. And I found that to be helpful not only with group members, but family members and friends and just, you know, offering what I've seen as either, you know, somebody in this field or my own personal experience and saying, you know, we have these things that can help and resources and, and just, you know, sometimes it's 10 times they come back with the same, like, burden and struggle, and you're like, yeah, those resources I told you about, you know, when you're ready, they're there. And I really think they'd be helpful. Kind of, you know, broken record. But the, the one thing that I always found is, like, if you offer them truth in your perspective and maybe a little vulnerability in either your experience or somebody you've worked with, and either way I'm going to love you and support you, but the work is here, you know, when you're ready to do it. It just really changed how I was able to work with people when I stopped chasing after them and wanting them to, like, see, see, like, you really need to see this, or here's this article and I found this and thought of you and, you know, oh, you can only do half your work right now, then, then I'll meet you at your house and we can do it while you're washing dishes or, you know, like, just really chasing after them. So I think even the, the engagement level of when that betrayed spouse finally enters into help, when you're just kind of there offering them the information is. Is so much better that they are. They're then ready to do the work when they're, when they finally take that step.

And some folks are not ready to do the work in that moment. And yeah, that's the importance of the education and the gentleness and the offering. When you're ready, we're here. Yeah, when you're ready, if this is not the right time or you don't think this is quite right, circle back when you might be. And that just leaves the door open for people where they don't feel judged and may not feel shame if they want to return six months a year from now because the door was left gently open. So they are, it's easier to then reconnect. And I'm sure that you guys have this too where you, you say that and people do come back and say, okay, I'm ready. My marriage is falling apart, she's gonna leave. I'm struggling with this. So now I'm ready.

Yes, definitely. Okay, next question. When you work with partners who are experiencing trauma over their spouse's behaviors, what are the initial steps that you recommend they take? So what do they need in the first month of recovery or healing for them?

Yeah, I really, I thought about this. You know, the first part is slow down. If you can breathe, oxygen does amazing things for your body. So slowing down and breathing and then who do you have in your world that you feel is a trusting, non judgmental person? And if you're not ready to share with a safe person, find the resources, because there's a lot of good resources. So this is one thing where with ABsats, again, training, organization. But here is one of our direct services to the community is we have a directory on our website, appsats.org you can go and click on there and look for a professional who is certified or in the process of certification with appsats. So you've got sort of a guarantee that those people have had that training and to become certified, you know, it takes an additional 30 hours of consultation with supervisors and in groups and such. So you've got someone who's well trained. So. So slow down. You're going to get through this. Getting some good resources, accessing people who are trained and knowledgeable because there's many good, meaning wonderful people out there. But if they don't have a clear eye to this world, they may accidentally misdirect you. So really seeking someone who understands this world. Yeah. And there's books and there's podcasts now and resources online. But first is take a minute, take care of yourself, do some breathing, see if you can settle yourself in this moment. Okay, what do I need next?

Yeah, it's almost like you're a professional in this because that advice was so good. You're an expert. This is so good advice. It's like, I think it took me five years to realize, it was like when I had gone, made really big strides in my healing and living back in my window of tolerance, that it was when my husband had another relapse that I realized, oh, I can't, I can go back into this state where I'm actually taking these very shallow breaths. And so as you're saying, you know, oxygen does wonder wonders for the brain. I did not realize that I had actually lived my most of my entire adult life that way of just like in this state of anxiety with these little shallow breasts. I mean even nothing to do with my husband. It was just going through the trauma of betrayal is what taught me that I lived in that state of anxiety all the time. But it, it's really fascinating to see yourself go back there and realize like I can't even catch a full breath. And that's such good advice just to slow down, breathe and find good help. Because that was definitely part of my story of well meaning church asking, you know, well, have you forgiven him? Maybe that's why you haven't moved past this. And so yeah, double down, triple down on what Jeanne said of trained, trained people who live in this world will see things differently.

Yes, well, and as a person whose background is all pastoral ministry, I love that you had three points because I heard breathe. Find safe, trustworthy people and get educated. Help yourself understand what you're going through and that'll help you clarify what next steps do look like. And I think for so many people in the church, it's that second step that's a challenge because they may have people that they feel are trusting, but when they go to them with this issue, they find more judgment than they thought where they are. Like you were saying, Ashley, they're given bad advice or told, well, how sexual are you being with him? Because you know, if he gets good cooking at home, he won't look outside, you know, the house. Like that is not helpful. And if we're always going to people in our church or faith community that don't have a good understanding of this, they may not be non judgmental. And I think that is the value of AppSat's trained counselors and therapists and coaches and the kind of groups that we offer for women in terms of betrayal that say we understand and we've, we've walked this road and we're not going to put the blame on you. We're not going to come hot and heavy with what you need to change. It's, it's care, it's support, it's understanding what trauma is doing to your central nervous system and your ability to function. And when you enter into that, if you've never had it before, and I'm saying this, I think for listeners that may be early in recovery or have made some attempts towards like I tried to get community, but what I got was more shame or responsibility or fingers pointed at me. And so I kind of gave up is to say there are safe, non judgmental people out there that can help you get into some of these places of understanding and care that maybe you've been missing. So if you've had some false starts or some negative experiences, just that encouragement of don't give up.

You know, one thing I'll add, Nick, is when I working with folks in the early stages, you know, and they perhaps have already overshared and felt that judgment or shame or they're thinking about it, is I try to run them through when they're in a calm state, which means their cognitive brain is very present. Right. The limbic system and the body is very relaxed. But what is the short term gain or risk? What's the long term gain or risk when you're deciding who you want to share with? You might feel better in the moment, but what if you decide to leave this person or what if you decide to stay? Will you feel judged? So if you do that sort of analysis for yourself when you know you've got a good moment, good cognitive moment, will this help me in the moment? Could this hurt me? Slow down and just think about that. Because sometimes you can't unsay something.

Yeah.

And I don't want folks in isolation. So it's this delicate balance.

Yeah. So, Jeanne, we've talked about it on our podcast and I know through appsats they see this, this long view of recovery that we talk about that particularly the marriage relationship. This could be a three to five year process of getting to a place of real lasting stability and change and feeling like, man, we're a transformed couple. For some people, that sounds like an eternity, especially if they're maybe early in recovery. They're listening to this podcast because there was just discuss recovery in their relationship. Talk a little bit about that. Like, why does this take so long? And what do you say to someone that's early in recovery feeling like that's an eternity to walk in recovery?

Yeah, I totally get it. I mean, to be on the front side and say, well, this is going to take three to five years. Just the fear of that and the sense of hopelessness that can come up at those early stages. So why does that happen? How does that happen? How can you perhaps make it less time? The piece is about getting again, getting trained support, getting in with services, resources that understand your world, getting both of you into some kind of care and discussion. I find that folks work through that quicker, faster. I don't know if that's right. Words. But if they can be well resourced, which means they have people, places, things, faith that are strengths for them that they can call upon in their hard times. So that definitely helps betray partners with healing. But also those who are struggling, you know, really get into sobriety and recovery. There's so many pieces and factors to that. There's also the pieces of finances. You know, money really impacts sometimes what kind of services folks can get. Yeah, the sooner you can get into services. And I'll also say, you know, betrayed partners, I want them to heal whether their loved one is doing the work or not. But I'll tell you, it is. I don't know, I don't want to say easier because none of this is easy. But when your loved one who's struggling with the sexual behavior really commits, surrenders, accepts, really dives in. So it's not that they're going to their clinician or their coach 50 minutes once a week, that's not going to do it. I mean, we have to remember that this compulsive behavior or addiction is a really a neurological thing. So you've really got to do the muscle memory, body work every day, every day, every day to create these neural pathways. So the loved one, the betrayer, when they really commit and dive in and they're doing something which doesn't have to be a meeting every day, but could be journaling, prayer, homework, counseling, they really commit. That really speeds up their work. And then betrayed partner tends to see that behavior and feel a bit safer emotionally, physically, sexually safer. So that then also helps the betrayed partner. As they're doing their healing work, it kind of becomes double time because if they have a safe environment to do that work in, it kind of speeds up their road to healing as well.

Yeah.

Now the question I asked Nick is, did I answer your question or did I just go on to something else?

That's really good.

No, I think it speaks about there are phases of healing and I know if someone takes the appsets training, they would see some of this model and those different pieces. It makes me think about some of the similar things we might experience in physical therapy. You know, a couple of years ago I tore, while out running, I tore my plantar fascia, the very bottom of your foot. And that was incredibly painful. And you know, a doctor and the, you know, physical therapist said it was going to be about a six month process, which as a runner, like I don't like to take two days off, let alone think it might be six months to be running again. And. But that doesn't mean that I was in six months of constant pain and then hit a day and got better and started running.

Right.

There were phases. There was a couple of weeks that anytime I put pressure on that foot, I was in pain and I knew it. And so I'm in a walking boot. Well, the pain started to go away, but that didn't mean I just, you know, oh, I'm in no pain now. I go run. No. Then I was still in a walking boot, just with some discomfort. And then I was able to take off the walking boot and learn to walk without it. And there was still discomfort, but I could manage it. And then I reached a point, the discomfort was better. And all the training, you know, physical therapy stuff I'd been doing, like, okay, try to run a mile. And I ran a mile and it wasn't super comfortable, but I was able to run. And over two, three more months, I ramped up my running until about six months down the road, I was actually running better and healthier than I had before. And I think in recovery, if we think about a relationship, and again, it does require a spouse who's also committed to the process. But if they are, there are gonna be these phases where you're not gonna be in constant pain for three years and then run full speed. There might be a season where the pain is intense, but as it subsides, then there's discomfort, there's learning new rhythms, then there's growing in some of that trust and those new, those new normals. And all this as a phased approach can be helpful. And so I just think it's encouraging to tell a couple, yeah, the full process may be years, but a few months in, if you're both really leaning in and doing your work, you may begin to have hopefulness much, much sooner than that. You might start to see some new things much sooner. What we're trying to encourage is that doesn't mean then you quit and just believe it's all going to be okay. You continue in the process until that new normal has solidified and become even better than what you had before.

You know, one thing I want to add to that, Nick, that was really beautiful. Just as the multi dimensional partner trauma model, which is three phases, Safety, stabilization, grieving, mourning, and reconnection, which is the. The healing journey of a betrayed partner. I think it's really important that betrayed partner and one who's struggling, they understand each other's process. Yeah, they really understand. So when, when perhaps betrayed partner is very reactivity and now crying and please Come towards me and actually, I hate you kind of a thing that the one who's struggling goes, I understand what's happening here. Mm. She's really struggling with the fact that I hurt her, but I'm also her person. And so the translation and same for betrayed partner. If they can understand what moments of progress look like for the betrayer, then they're going to feel a little more compassion, perhaps, but also a sense of understanding which facilitates hopefulness. So when we can speak each other's languages in a way that we can see where those golden nuggets of opportunity and those moments that shine, we have to speak each other's language. Otherwise that moment sometimes will just pass a person by. And so that's each getting educated, of course, about your own process, but getting educated about your loved ones process too, and then going back to. And having people who understand that, because it's very easy for, you know, a betrayer community to say, oh, she's just doing this, or he's just that. Well, actually that's a trauma symptom they're working really hard on, and vice versa, of course. So that's one thing that really can propel a couple understand each other's journey and struggles, which then they can also see the moments of progress and maybe have some celebration in that. Yeah. So just wanted to add that part.

That's a really good piece of advice. I mean, it is like, even when my husband and I were going through it, like, down to something like my seeking safety in a not healthy way for myself by like looking through his workbooks and checking through his phone, there was a moment of realization, in understanding his process of secrecy, shame, hiding, addiction for years that this is now the very first group of men he's ever been able to unpack this stuff fully with. And if I hinder that process, if he's thinking through the filter of, my wife could end up seeing this. So I need to then filter what I'm processing out loud with my group through the filter of she could see this. I'm actually doing damage to our whole relationship. And, you know, there's just moments like that in. In reading about the struggler and reading about the addiction that and what they needed and kind of lining. Lining that up with what my behaviors are and then being able to say, okay, I am not feeling safe in some way because I'm seeking safety in all of these ways. So how can I get my needs met in feeling safe while. While doing the best to support your process so you can do the deepest level of healing work you can over here. And just having those conversations where were really helpful, but we wouldn't have been able to do that had we not been able to understand what the other person was doing. Because those early conversations were, you're a snoop, you're controlling, and you know, you're a liar. And you know, and then it was like, okay, you're seeking safety and you're, you know, you're unpacking all these secrets and you know, it's not about me that you've done these things. And it's just, it's, it's pivotal to that process.

You highlighted that so well, Ashley. You know, you're a snoop and you're controlling. Well, actually, I'm just trying to see what's actually the truth. You know, I'm trying to figure out, wait, what happened? Wait, what, what? And so that's, you know, that detective. But the other person needs, needs some kind of privacy. Non secrecy.

Those are very Right. Yes.

Some level of privacy to have this space and openness to do the work that needs to get done. Which is actually what everybody wants. Yes. Because they want, you know, we want sobriety, recovery and healing.

Yeah.

So that's, it's super important and hard when you don't understand what the other person is doing and why.

Yeah, really hard.

I always say, like, what's underneath it? You see that? But what's underneath it? Yeah, that was a beautiful example, Ashley.

Well, your rabbit trail really just opened that example up. So thank you for taking that road. We needed that. Okay. As you work so often in training people to address trauma, what are the key characteristics you have seen in someone who addresses trauma? Well, and for those out there who really want to be a helper in this area, what main skills do they need to develop?

Yeah, I'm thinking about that. So if you've got someone out there who's interested in becoming a helper in whatever way, and I'm thinking a religious leader, coach, clinician, it's get trained first and foremost. A lot of folks in this field have their own personal experience, and that is such a texture and a depth to the work they're going to do. And get trained because your experience may not be the only experience. So really understanding the breadth of the current literature, because, hey, we have current literature, we have research that's coming out, we have a lot of information that we didn't used to have. So first and foremost, please get trained. The other part is really adopting that non judgmental, non critical, non advice giving kind of Mannerisms and way of being is you're really coming alongside and offering and support and guide. Especially when someone is in a traumatic state, they are just by virtue of trauma, they're going to have difficulty making decisions and so being very thoughtful and careful about what information you put in front of them in that moment. So it's that gentleness, the non judgment, getting trained and realizing that everyone has their own speed. I have betrayed partners who come in and they'll just eat books up. They're better read than me. I didn't know about that book. Oh, I didn't know that one. Have you had that nick too?

Yep. You're like, that sounds awesome. I haven't even heard of it yet.

And that's the fight flight response. And then the other ones come in and they're, I'm here, I'm scared, I don't know what to do. And I started reading a book and I have one client in mind. She's like. And then I threw it across the room. I can't read any of that. I'm not ready for that. It's too overwhelming. No problem. Both are having their own separate experience. One's in fight flight, one's in freeze, and they're both okay. So not putting expectation with your person's pace.

That's good advice.

Yeah. One of the things that occurs to me and that I've seen because of my own story is the need to believe that the trauma is real and that caring for that partner is just as important as helping the addict recover and find freedom. You know, our Recovery was in 2010, so 14 years ago. And I think at that time I was not educated. I knew I had a problem and I wanted to fix it. And my wife was doing group, which I saw as like a good thing, but not necessarily as important as what I was doing. It's like, oh, that's nice. She does that. But my interest in her group was really just that she would be less angry. I don't think I really understood trauma versus as we walked. And it's like, wow. There was significant. I mean, for us, it was the 10 years of my slow drip of discovery that just created this whole sense for her, what can I trust? What can I believe? And I didn't see it. And so I had to come to that point, through some of our education and experiences we had of really believing this is real. I've caused it. And she needed that care just as much as I did. And so I would say for professionals, for pastors, for helpers, if we've kind of been in that sphere of yeah, man, people who struggle are addicted. We need to help them get free. And yeah, there's this other nice piece, but it's not nearly as essential as this over here. We're going to be limited in our ability to care well because we see it as secondary. And so if we can bring these two ideas together that doing one or the other doesn't negate or make the other less important, that we're trying to help that couple heal, we're trying to help both spouses find a new level of wholeness. And it's equally important work. That belief will in and of itself make us better at caring for that hurting, betrayed partner and providing that care. So I would just encourage everyone to look inside and say, do I truly believe this is necessary and valued and as important as caring for the struggler or the addict?

Yes. I'm thinking also Nick, of the folks who have not yet shared, disclosed or confessed that this is going on and they might be saying, well, well, she probably is in that position yet because I haven't told her so maybe I shouldn't tell her. And I'm going to, I'm going to speak to your. Your loved one is already being impacted by those behaviors, those actions because they're secret, they take up your mind and body and so they're already feeling the impact. They just don't know what it is yet. So sometimes there's some freedom in sharing the truth because things may start to make sense in a way or and to embrace what I hear you saying, Nick, is also my words. Lean in, embrace the hard stuff and the healing for the partner is part of the coupleship. Creating 2.0.

Yeah. That is such good advice about or just Claire of a clarifying point that what's going on in the relationship is already happening and being felt, very much felt as we know even our kids feel things that are going on. We think we hide it so well. And, and I do remember at Discovery I felt shock but then immediately the next feeling was relief that what was going on in our marriage for four years had a name and if something had a name then it would. I could figure out how we needed to work through it. Where for four years just living in this ambiguous like what is wrong with our marriage, it seems okay, but there's nothing I can put my finger on. And so yeah, relief. Huge feeling during that time.

Yeah. One other thought I would share because I think for some that want to help in this area or care well, they Feel like, well, I know people and I don't necessarily need to be trained because I know people and I'll just care for them because I know people. It's a little bit like a mechanic who says, well, I know cars when really they've worked on Fords and their whole career, they've really worked on Fords. And then someone brings in a Mitsubishi from a different country and a different model of how the engine is constructed, like, oh, well, I know cars. And. And they start getting into that engine, they're probably gonna be putting things where they shouldn't go and potentially causing more damage. And so if we feel like, hey, I'm a caregiver, I know people. Yes, but there are dynamics of trauma. There are elements of this care that if we were equipped and educated, we can provide much better care and maybe not inadvertently create wounding. And so I would just echo what Jeanne is saying. Be trained. Appsets makes that religious leader training available to anyone who's willing to take it. You don't have to be a credentialed counselor, but if you're saying, I'm in a religious community, I'm a pastor, I'm a faith leader, and I want to do better, it's available to you. The books are. You can find books on Amazon. So being trained is essential, and we shouldn't underplay it just because we quote, unquote, know people. So, Jeanne, we've talked quite a lot about the betrayed partner and the need for care, but I want to, as we get towards the end here, maybe focus on the struggler a little bit and some of the fears they may have around their partner getting trauma care. Because if they see their spouse heading towards that, they may fear that they're going to get all the blame or that they're going to be shamed that this is just going to become spouse bashing. It's going to make things worse. So how does trauma care, partner care ultimately help the marriage and relationships? Or put another way, why should the struggler or the Addict be 100% supportive of their spouse getting partner care?

Well, if you want your relationship to heal and be a 2.0 is what I call it, both folks need tending to. And how can you support both of you getting the type of care that is right for you? So to only have one half doing the work, the other half is still in a position of usually uncertainty. You cannot build a strong foundation without honesty and intimacy work. And that's. That's for the coupleship. So I completely understand betrayer, addict, feeling Fear. If. If. If my person, my loved one, goes into care and they learn they're traumatized, and then I'm worse the bad guy. And I'm already feeling like the bad guy. I don't like my behavior. I already feel shame about it. But now I'm the one who caused this for her, so now I got more shame. That's hard to voluntarily walk into. Yeah. And yet I strongly encourage you all, if this is your position and situation, to support your loved one, the betrayed, getting that care. Because that's what creates both sides, the whole unit. The 2.0 opportunity. I have seen, and I do a lot of couples work actually specializing in the sexuality piece. But the 2.0 life that can be created can only be created when both people are feeling like they can trust emotionally, physically, sexually, trust the other person. And to do that, you both need to do the work and have the support and have the fluency and language and emotional sharing between the two of you. So if you want to get to 2.0, both people. And so how can you step into supporting that rather than feeling the fear? So if you have the shame and you have the fear about what it would be like for my betrayed person to get into care, talk to your groups, talk to your people. How can you work through that in a way that feels honorable and integrity to help support the one who's also been impacted?

Yeah.

Yeah. And like I had kind of mentioned briefly earlier, you know, John was in group for a few months before I was. And when he just started to make what I know now as huge strides in the recovery process of an addiction that was 20 years old, it was, you know, 15 years before he even met me or however many years. I couldn't celebrate that. I couldn't see that. I couldn't support that. It was almost like I was unintentionally, but intentionally like, you have to stay here in my pain because if you move forward, then that means my betrayal pain is not real. I didn't know that's what I was doing, but that's what I was doing. Because, you know, if he moved forward, then it felt like. I mean, it felt like I was just going to have to stay with feeling how I felt, like nothing was resolved. And that's why it's so important for that betrayed partner to, even if they're not experiencing trauma, understand how lying, how deception, how gaslighting, how manipulation, how sexual acting out, how all those things impact them and how they react to it and what they need for safety and what's okay in the marriage and what's not okay. So even on a level, if you just say, okay, maybe you're not in trauma and you don't feel you need this group, it's good for you to have an understanding of basically how. How are you able to, in a healthy way, live with this person who is struggling so that you can help yourself, have good boundaries, verbalize what you need, be aware of things that you know are not healthy in your marriage. And I didn't realize that back then.

Well, and early in recovery, when discoveries happen or disclosure, I think many of us as the struggle or addict, we're very motivated because we don't want them to be angry. We don't want them to be so mad at us. We maybe want sex to come back in the relationship because they've not felt safe enough to do it. We just want things to go back to quote, unquote, normal or like to get over this. And we might feel like, well, the key to that is me getting better and not doing the bad things anymore. And that certainly helps. That is certainly a part of the equation. But if your spouse doesn't get care and have a safe place to recover, they're not going to be able to process through some of those things. And so I've said to like men in my groups, the very best thing to help your spouse, you know, quote, unquote, get over this is for them to get care. And if that means you need to, you know, quit your basketball league so that you can be home and watch the kids and help her go to group, do it. If that means you need to sell something so you can afford her to go to counseling, do it like the very best thing for you. And sometimes we just got to tap into that. We're selfish beings. We're like, well, what's in it for me? Say the very best thing for you would be a healthier, healing version of your spouse. And whatever you can do to support that, yeah, maybe it's going to get painful at first because they might come back and require things of you. They may have some new boundaries in mind. They may have some needs that they're going to start expressing, but that is all in the long run, so good for your relationship and the health that can come. And so whatever you can do to support that process, not only is doing it gonna create that opportunity, it also shows the spouse that you get it, that you see, I recognize you need some support as well. And I'm willing to do whatever it takes, not just to change my behavior. Because we say that a lot. I'll do whatever it takes. Not just to change your behavior, but whatever it takes to help them get care as well. In the end, it's all going to be good for the relationship.

I hear because I work with addicts and betrayed partners, I hear, especially in those early phases, I'll do whatever it takes. And what I say to those folks is, remember that statement. Yes, it flows right out. And you mean it so intensely with your whole being, you mean it. And in six months, when those nine months, a year, whatever is right for you, where those I, you know, I'm so, I'm sober a year. Why isn't she over it? Oh, so be careful with, not be careful with, embrace. I'm going to do whatever it takes because I will remind people of that sentence later on in therapy or whatever we're working on. When it's like now it hits the road. Whatever it takes. Now is that time. Remember that passion.

Yeah, that's really good. Really good examples and information. Well, Jeannie, we're so grateful for you getting on here today with us. And what encouragement would you give a first time partner who might be stuck in trauma and then also to the struggling spouse who might be skeptical about partner care?

I think so. Back to some of the things we've said already is, is get support and the right kind of support. The folks who are knowledgeable, who have training, who are up to date on the material. If you're feeling stuck, please know that you're not. You're not stuck. There is hope. There are resources that are good, helpful, willing, wonderful people who want to help and bring you along. And then for the attic part, who was, I think you said, skeptical. Yeah. It's back to what we've been talking about is to. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take the, the leap here and say, I'm guessing you didn't mean to cause the harm to her or to him. Betrayed partners, male or female. I'm guessing you didn't mean for all these impacts to happen. You may have thought this was something you were doing. It was kind of your thing on the side. Nobody needs to know. It's not hurting anybody. You may not have meant to cause this impact, and yet it happened. So part of the work is taking responsibility, stepping into that accountability of how can I assist us and do my part in helping us come into healing. And so, Nick, back to your car accident. You know, betrayer is at the steering wheel. Did not mean for other folks to be Harmed.

Yeah.

And they were.

And they did.

Yeah. And so how can you step in and lean into that?

We've had to have that conversation with our kids a lot. Well, they'll say, well, it's an accident. I know it was not intended, but there are still results that. That have consequences and we need to face those. And. And I think people are in that situation. So, yeah, this has been awesome. Jeanne. I think my last advice or encouragement to everyone would just be what we also said of get educated. This area may be new for you. You may be walking through something you don't understand, but other people have walked this road. There are resources out there, whether through app sets or Pure Desire or other organizations to say you're not alone in this and what you're facing is not new or unusual. It's very specific and unique to you. Your story is unique. But in terms of people experiencing this, that is not unique. There are many that have gone through it. And because of that, there's a lot of great information out there. And as we're armed with that information, it can help us see not only what steps we need to take, but ultimately could become part of us, helping educate our society, our churches, our family groups on what happens in sexual addiction and trauma and for people to see the two sides of it. So if you're early in recovery, that may be hard to see, but I'll just cast that little seed of vision to say at some point your story could be the very thing that helps someone else in their story to see that they're not alone and for them to find help. So be open to that. And I think that happens as we get educated and learn more about this area. Well, Jeanne, it's been so good. We believe firmly that sexual brokenness and addiction is a family systems issue, and so it affects the couple and if possible, the couple must heal together. We're so thankful for what you and appsats are doing to change this narrative, to help partners find their voice to heal and live in great health and when the marriage is not possible to be redeemed, that you help men and women experiencing betrayal understand how they can live a healthy, fulfilling life. So, Jeanne, thanks so much for what you do and for joining us today.

It's been absolutely my pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

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