382 - Beyond The Porn Phenomenon w/ David Kinnaman (Part 1/8)

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Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 382 and I am joined by my co host, Ashley Jamison. Ashley, good to have you. How are you doing?

I'm so happy to be here. This is, we've just been working up to this for what, a year or something?

About I think maybe a year and a half. Yeah, it's a long time in the making.

Yeah, it feels like a wedding, a birth. I mean, you're waiting all year for something great and wonderful and, and we have all these new stats and I'm really excited to share them and talk about them.

Yeah, so that's the, the point today is we're going to be starting an eight part series for those that are regular podcast listeners. You can expect about the next two months to focused around this and interviewing guests who were a part of the new report from Barna, beyond the porn Phenomenon. The project that we've been working on with them. It's chock full of new stats and data around pornography use, views on sexuality in our culture, the impact that pornography has on marriage and relationships. And today we're launching this eight part series with the man himself, the President of Barna, Mr. David Kinnaman. So Ashley, thoughts on today's episode and the conversation we had with David and what our listeners might expect from today?

Yeah, well, I was surprised myself how much I enjoyed this episode because those who know me know that I, I'm not a numbers person or a detailed person or scripted person. And, and that's very much what research is. And so I was like, oh, this is just gonna be a lot of numbers and data and, and research. And it was. But I think the way that David and the, the way we got to just talk about what, how does that impact me, what are we seeing in the church? It was really a good conversation.

Yeah. And I think that's a good reminder for listeners who might feel the same way of like, well, I'm not really into numbers or data or maybe I'll check out for eight weeks. What I want to encourage you, if that's where you're at, is that the numbers tell a story. And I think today we really started to unpack that story. And David Kinman, this is what he does for a living, but they are so good at saying what, what meaning does this data have? So it's not Just, you know, the whole episodes, X + Y equals Z and the Pythagorean theorem. And you know, there, there's no math class here if you're not a math major. You're gonna love it because it's really looking at what is the story behind the data. And I think that's what we're here for is to say what impact does this have? What difference does it make? And we, we were able to get into a lot of that today.

Yeah. And who doesn't know where we're at post Covid and you know, all of that. This is gonna be a great series to kick off.

Yeah. So listeners. Yeah, I think you're in for a real treat again. This is the first part of an eight part series and it just felt right to have David Kinnaman and he was here in studio with us, which was a huge plus. A little bit about David, for those that may not be familiar with him. He is the author of best selling books Faith for Exiles, Good Faith, you Lost Me and Unchristian. He's the CEO of Barna Group, a leading research and communications company that works with churches, nonprofits and businesses ranging from film studios to financial services. And since 1995, David has directed interviews with more than 2 million individuals and overseen thousands of U.S. and global research studies. He lives in Fort Worth, Texas and has three children. And now here is our conversation with David Kinnaman and the new report, beyond the Porn Phenomenon. David Kinnaman, thanks so much for joining us today.

Nick Stumble. I'm glad to be here.

Yeah, we have been excited about this and are so honored to be releasing this report on the church and pornography and sexuality and our culture. And so before we dive into some of the report, let's start here with this question. Why stats? You know, I think for a lot of us, we think about our faith being about relationships, the word of God following Christ. And so it might seem like, well, stats and data really aren't that big of a deal. But what role do stats and data and surveys have in shaping us and in shaping the church?

Well, we live in a very stat filled world and research defines so much of what we think about, what is real, what is true, what is accurate. You know, whether it's on social media or in the news, there is all sorts of discussion about like what's happening. So Barna is a social, social research company we've been around for 40 years, started by George and Nancy Varna in 1984. And I think research is so critical because it gives us a perspective about what's happening around us. It gives us context, it gives us better than our best guesses. Research is very limited, but it actually gives us some perspective on what's really happening in the world. And for us as Christian researchers, there's a lot of references in scripture to the importance of understanding the world around you. So you can look at things like in the New Testament, let's he who has ears, let them hear. Right? That's a research based kind of thing. Are you listening to the way the Lord is speaking to you? The book of numbers? I mean, we have a God who has a whole book called Numbers, which I think is great. And that book is really about this notion of going out and counting. And numbers 13 actually has Moses sending out the spies with about 10 different demographic questions as they go out to figure out what's true of the promised land. The tribe of Issachar is described in 1st Chronicles 12:32 as the people who understood the times and knew what to do. So I think, I think numbers are really important. And by the way, when you think about millennials, Gen Z and kind of like how younger generations are thinking about life of meaning, they are so often looking to social research or what, what seems like social research to like, hey, this is the best way to parent or this is the best way, you know, to think about, you know, everything from packing your travel, you know, travel bags to how to think about, you know, sexuality or think about medical issues. So we live in a very information drenched world. So we try to bring a Christian imagination, a Christian practice to that.

One of the things that occurs to me is the stats or the data that we're collecting feels a little bit like holding up a mirror. You know, James talks about that in the New Testament that faith and action go together and there is a need to see ourselves in the mirror, to understand what we look like and then as he says, you know, to go away and actually do something about it, not to ignore it. And I think stats are a way of holding up a mirror to our faith, to our culture, to the church, and say, this is what's happening, this is what we may not always want to look at, but it's there. And then the question is, what will we do with it? But if, if we never look in the mirror, then we just kind of blunder on in areas that we may be actually not equipped to make the changes we need to because we're not even aware of what's there. And so, yeah, I hope this becomes kind of that Mirror moment for a lot of us to be willing to look in and go, oh, okay, there's some things I need to address there. Yeah.

And the founder of the company, George Barna, always said, you know, we don't have to like the stats, but we do have to deal with them. So, you know, we've uncovered a lot of uncomfortable things, but also some positive, I think, opportunities for the church over our four decades of work. You know, the discipleship gap or the Bible engagement gap, or in the case of the study, you know, pornography and some of the challenges that come with that. So research should give us, you know, a grip on reality, a context to place it in, and then a direction to pursue. So, you know, what, what's real best, as we can tell through social research? A context to place this in. How is this different from before?

Yeah. What does this mean?

Yeah. And then. And then a direction to pursue. What do we do with this? And I think that three part sort of those steps are really important for us as we're, as we're just trying to figure out how to be faithful in our times.

Yeah.

What I really appreciate about this from, you know, being somebody that oversees and helps churches, is that churches are busy and there's a lot of needs. We're trying to, one, help save souls and feed orphans and, and do all these things. And oftentimes it's whoever's bringing the need forward or willing to implement the programs or what gets done in a church. And so when you talk to somebody and they're like, well, I don't think that happens in our church because I know these people, you know, our couples have been married for decades, or I know somebody, it's really easy for people to do that and, and just put it in the conte, their own little tiny world. But when we're able to put the dad in front of them and say, this is how many Christians are struggling, or this is how many betrayed spouses they are, I think it just, like you said, holds a mirror up and say, this problem is already here. All we're doing is putting a name and a number to it so we know exactly what we're dealing with and we can take our next steps. And, and then same like with the teenagers, they're like, well, prove it. Prove it. Where's the video? Where's the, you know, where's the YouTube? Where's the live stream? And, and so being able to say those things I've taught to you about God, here is, here's some data. Here's some science and me being a very research driven person and wanting to understand, like, oh, I'm sick, but I want to know exactly what's going on and what's happening to my body and why it really helps somebody like me put the scriptures together and say, this is why it's so important, because this is what it's doing to our society or our body or mind.

So, yeah, I love the way you've just said that, because I think research does then provide a kind of integrating way of seeing the broader world. And then what does this mean for me? And, and even as you've talked about that, like, it's exactly true that because of issues of sex and sexuality are so private, the anonymity of a social research study is at least one better way than just trying to guess by, oh, I see that person, and they really seem to know the right words to say. Or like, I think that, I think they're all good. Like, you know, this is the, the privacy of sexuality is such an interesting one. And, and, you know, as we'll probably get into, it's one of those areas where it really shipwrecks a lot of people. It really, it really sabotages a lot of, a lot of, a lot of souls because it's one of these things that's very difficult, you know, to sort of come, come out into the light. And I think research is one of those great things that does that. In fact, one of the interesting little stats, the first stat of the day, is that we gave people a chance to not answer certain questions in the survey, you know, to opt out of, you know, kind of these private matters. And only 3% of all the, the survey respondents decided not to continue with those questions, which just shows, like, people are. They want to be. Yeah, they want to know. They want a place to have an honest set of questions, you know, and, and I think that's another positive thing with generation Z and younger generations, millennials. They're very open. So how will the church respond to that openness?

Yeah, well, even this, the stat that talks about how many pastors have had a history, you know, 67 with porn use. Just, you know, this week we had somebody email and say, you know, is your ministry right for a pastor who's had a moral failure? And it's like, oh, yeah, you know, and it was like they really had this tone in their email that they're very alone. This is very unique. This is very. And it's very sad, but it's not very unique, you know, and I think the numbers show like he. There's other people that are going through the same thing, and there is hope for him. And it gives, I think, hope.

Absolutely.

Okay, so our next question, the first Barna report did on pornography was in 2016 called the Porn Phenomenon. Can you tell us a little bit about how this report came to be and about the impact you have seen this report have on the church and Christians?

Yeah, so we were meeting with Josh McDowell, who's a longtime leader in the church and such a statesman within the church, a prolific author. And he came to our offices in, at the time, Ventura, California, and was saying, you know, he was running into more and more Christians, more and more Christian leaders, more and more college students in his travels. You know, speaks to tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people every year, maybe millions. And he was saying he felt like pornography was just this, you know, online, the accessibility of pornography. This was in 2015. It might have even been, like late 2014. You know, obviously it wasn't the beginning of the Internet, but he was sort of seeing this huge thing. So he's like, I really want to be able to quantify what's happening with pornography across all phases of the church, all society, all Christians, young people, pastors, youth pastors. And we were. We were, you know, compelled to try to try to help. And it was actually a really cool. I was telling someone else. It. It actually came at a time for our business, for what this is worth, where we were trying to reinvent how we thought about data journalism and some of our print publications. So his. His desire to have a kind of a breakthrough piece of social research, we kind of invented. There were two or three other clients at that time. We kind of invented this thing called a monograph, which is, you know, the report that we called then the Porn Phenomenon and now, you know, working with Pure Desire, called Beyond the Porn Phenomenon. And so this sort of magazine style journal and. And it was really cool because Josh was so passionate about this where, you know, we came back with a project price. I think it was like $150,000. And he. And he's like, David, that's not big enough. It's. The problem is so big. Make it, make it, make it bigger. We want a.

It's like, spend more money. Like, okay, do you know how many.

Clients come to me and say that? Yeah, like, none. And so, so. So I really. I really have a lot of respect for him and his vision to try to use the very best. And. And, you know, it was at beginning, kind of at a. At A time in our company's history where we were going from one phase of our work to another. And, and he really kind of helped us envision a bigger vision for that. And the study became that kind of, you know, kind of like a template for a whole new way of thinking about data journalism, which I'm very proud of how our company shows up. We, we are, we, we love doing it. It's not easy, but that was really the background. And so then we, you know, we got back this data with this supersized social research and this data journalism project. And, and, you know, it really made at that time a big impact because it was, it was helpful to clarify the sheer scope of the findings, you know, that. That women were, you know, also really encumbered through porn by pornography, that the age of exposure was being, you know, dropped to younger and younger ages. Just the fact that pastors were struggling with it in high numbers, that the church didn't really have a roadmap forward. And so, yeah, that was a. That was the early days of our work on the porn phenomenon. And I became a porn stat star.

What a title.

Keep that second word in there. Stat star.

That's the important one.

Enunciate that one.

Yeah. Well, I do think it was an important time for the kind of trajectory of the church because that was, you know, 15 to 20 years after the Internet and high speed Internet had started to become mainstreamed. And it seems like that's about the time frame of a generation. So we were about a generation past start of the Internet. And for the first time really saying what's actually going on here, because I think everybody would say, like, oh, all men struggle, or yeah, this is a big deal, but probably not in the church or if you're a devoted Christian, you found ways to overcome this. And the nature of the topic, as we talk about a lot, it's by nature private and awkward. And so it's isolating. And if you do have an issue, you don't freely talk about it. And so you can show up at church where everybody's dressed nice and looks good and their marriages seem happy and, you know, during worship. And I remember doing this in some of my own history of where I was in a binge purge struggle. You'd look around a room of other people and feel like, I've got to.

Be the only one.

I mean, these people all seem so wise and kind and mature and surely they don't struggle. What's wrong with me? And so you fight that battle even while other people Say, oh, all men struggle, but when it's personal, like, no, I think it's just me.

Yeah.

And then the dad in 2016 comes out, and it's like, oh, this is widespread, even within the church, even among pastors. And it kind of opened up, I think, the conversation and along with the Conquer series coming out about a year or two before that, and Josh McDowell's heart to really bring together ministries because he did a large conference, which at the time was probably the largest collection of Christian counselors, Christian ministries, nonprofits that were focused on this area of addressing healthy sexuality. And. And just said, we've got to do this together. And if this report and data can do that, that was his heartbeat behind it. And so I think it did create the conversations in new ways. And then as we'll get to in a little bit, I think some of that kind of waned. It was like, hey, been there, done that. And now there's all these other big issues that have happened and. And the church a little bit kind of moved on from it and that. Again, we'll talk a little bit more about that in a minute.

Yeah, I mean, I definitely remember feeling that way. I was. I mean, even though I look so young, I did not have a cell phone growing up, and the computer was not like a thing. It was just becoming a thing. But I mean, even back then, it was. I would look at the. Through encyclopedias for, like, private parts. Like, I found ways or rewind videotapes. You know, it was my way. You definitely had to seek it out more. When I was a teenager or I think I was first exposed walking home from the swimming pool and under the bridge, there was pornography magazines. Whereas now with my kids, it's just like, it is so hard to keep it from coming in and working with parents that say, oh, well, we do. We do a really good job of locking things down, or we do a really good job of having parental controls. And I'm like, I preach and teach us for a living, and I have all the controls, and it's still coming in my house that you really can't. You can't keep your kids from being exposed to it. So educating the church and being Christians who can respond in a way that's helpful and not shaming and brings things more underground is going to be so important. So having this research to equip leaders in the church is very exciting.

And it's not if. But when young people are exposed and, And. And it. It really is just so ubiquitous. I mean, pornography is not new from the earliest cave dwellings. Right.

It's not new.

And God's nature never changes. Human nature doesn't change. We're still created in the image of God to do good works, but also sinful and flawed. But what I like to say is that what has changed is the context. And these digital tools are like magic. And, you know, they have changed society. They, you know, we went through the pandemic and, you know, zoom and the first Digital Easter in 2020. And so, you know, I. A phrase that, that I've used is like, the best human inventions are now in our pockets and everything from magazines to radio to, you know, everything. Right. Music. Remember that. That old. One of the first taglines for the ipod, one of the Apple devices was, you know, a million songs in your pocket. And, and like, that's just a remarkable change in human history. Right. And yeah, I remember you're sort of referring back to your. Your household of origin, saying. Saying we were kind of like late adopters to technology as born in 1973. And I can still remember, you know, how hard it was to watch some of your favorite movies. You know, you had to wait for the Saturday night rerun of Star Wars. Like, you couldn't just go watch and watch and re watch it. So, you know, access is just completely shifted. And it's in that context then that we have to have, you know, sturdier souls, better sense of who we are, who we are in Christ, what we want out of our. Our bodies, out of our sexuality. And, you know, my mission is really to help bolster the church in its discipleship efforts across all phases of life, but especially when it comes to our bodies and our sexuality. Because what could be more important to respond. The only way you can respond to the onslaught, the challenges of a digital world, is to have a stronger sense of conviction and purpose and calling and, you know, a place of restoration when. When you mess up. And so this, this study is so important, and this topic is just so crucial for the church today.

Yeah, yeah, we're connected beings. And I think, unfortunately, a lot of Christians, if I can say that, have inadvertently disconnected some of their sexuality and their spirituality, partly because sexuality feels very worldly, cultural. It's not talked about much at church. And yet spirituality, you know, faith and prayer and the Bible and all that's great, but for many people, I don't think the two communicate very much. And I think that's one of our hopes, is that we can integrate our faith and our bodies. More to say God designed us, God created sex. God invited the world into understanding that beauty. And yet there's lots of ways it's been really subverted and changed and distorted from what God intended. And let's look at the impact it's having on us. And I think because of the value we see, like man, we've got to have integrated faith. People have got to be able to understand this in a digital age and all that's happening. I think we were really surprised in early 2023 when we started, I think the conversation with Barna. It was really motivated by how little new data was out there. And I was going to events and hearing people speak and I was speaking and I would hear stats and I'd be like, clicking off like, oh, that was from the 2016 porn phenomenon. Oh, that was from Covenant Eyes 2012 stat pack. That's every stat I was hearing was 2016 or earlier. And we start looking around for more data. It's like there are a few social studies that have been done and mostly about college students. It's always about college students. I'm not sure why, but like new data on a more widespread landscape just hadn't happened. And I'm curious for your thoughts. Why do you think that is? Why do you think there's been such a long gap in surveying this kind of information in the church and in our society?

Well, we kind of talked about a little earlier. It's expensive. You know, these are, these are, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars to do the kind of breakthrough social research you can do. Smaller, smaller little doses. But, you know, it's, it's great when a, when a, when an organization and a leader such as yourselves kind of say, oh, I see that, that stats can actually be a really critical part of, of leading and describing a different reality. And so, you know, I think there, there's, you know, part of it is there's a, a massive amount of data available online or appears to be. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, it's like the desktop research is not hard. And sometimes you could ask yourself what is the value of brand new data if we have something from a few years ago. But I think there's a lack of this to have maybe a personal question, but as a leader of a Christian research organization, we have, and I have no complaints about the work we do at the partners that we work with, but I think Christian leaders sometimes rely too much on anecdotal experience. And if you're in the business space, if you're in mainstream media, we've done a lot of work for, for entertainment companies, a lot of the major studios in, in la, a lot of the major music companies, because they're trying to understand the Christian market. And I mean, they have data coming in every day on different things that are happening. You know, obviously most industries, there's quite a bit of like, you know, there's a data stream that you pay close attention to, whether it's the stock market or the business, the business sector or customer, you know, index. So I think we need more and better data about the questions that we're, that we're facing. You know, we need, we need better monitors on how is discipleship going, how are our pastors doing, how is the next generation, how do we think about issues related to sexuality, how do we understand the mindset of millennials? Gen Z now, Gen Alpha is coming up. So yeah, I think it's, it's expensive. People have to have the vision. A lot of organizations, their lifeblood for donors or ministry work doesn't depend on data in the same way that, that a business would. So I think those are some of the questions that I think we have to keep solving. And we live in a data driven world. So, you know, measuring transformation. We've been working with one of our partners called Glue and measuring what matters. You know, it's so important that we don't just look at whether people showed up at church, but you know, are they becoming new and better people in light of Christ?

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. That we rely on anecdotal evidence or stories or even just our own perception of, well, it doesn't seem to be coming up much in my church. So we're probably okay. And I've heard the data from six, seven years ago and I don't know if it's changed much, but yet as we talked already, it's a very difficult subject to talk about.

Yeah.

And so just because I'm not hearing about it doesn't mean it's not happening. You know, and I'm sure we'll get into some of these stats, but just the amount of people that say nobody knows about my struggle or no one is helping me or I haven't told anyone. Well, that would lend itself to a topic where the average leader might feel like, oh, this maybe isn't that big of a deal because I don't hear about it. And yet I think that was really driving us to say, well, just because we don't hear about it doesn't mean it isn't happening and impacting people. And back to something you said earlier, too. It's not something we want to deal with until we have to. Right? It's not a problem until it is. And then it's a big problem because it blows up the marriage or ends the career or gets the Christian leader removed from their post. And now it's a really big deal. But I've always looked at those situations, said, man, this was a big deal for years, if not decades before that moment. Was anyone offering to help them in that season or did we just wait until it blew up? And I hope in some of the new data it is that desire to say, this isn't new and let's not wait until whatever crash is coming, let's address now, because not a whole lot has changed. In fact, as we'll talk about in a minute, things are continuing to progress in a negative direction.

And yeah, what I really appreciate from, you know, not only being a parent who advocates for introducing topics of sexuality to your kids first, but then, you know, helping churches. My own experience of starting groups in my church and working with churches are, well, we don't want to cause suspicion in, in mem. We don't want to talk about something that might not apply to everybody. We don't want to arouse suspicion. We don't want to put the images and people. There's all these things that are stumbling blocks for churches to put this information out there. But I'm a firm believer that, you know, if we, if we're showing 60 or more just people on average are struggling with pornography or looking at it regularly, then that means all these people in your church are sitting there. And most of them are probably feeling alone, feeling shame. It's keeping them from good ministry. That was my experience. Because there's this sense that there's something wrong with me. I'm broken, I'm not as spiritual as everybody else. And so we don't need to fear offending maybe the people who are not struggling because they're good, they're not struggling. Like, let them be offended, they'll get over it within a week or two. But the people who have been struggling for decades in secrecy, just like putting the data in front of pastor, saying, what would you do if 61% of the people in your audience showed up drunk or high or with a chronic.

Illness or had abused their children that.

Week, abused their children or were raped or, you know, lost a spouse, we would be like in full blown crisis mode, all hands on deck, let's roll up the sleeves, let's get the trucks out here. And that's what's happening. And it's just this silent eroding of souls and minds and marriages and ministers, just quietly. And so I'm all about, like, okay, let's bust the top off. Here's the report. This is happening now. Let's deal with it.

Yeah, I love it. I think that's so good.

Well, I am super excited about all this data. So let's, I'm curious to know what's top of the list for you. So as your team was conducting this and putting this research out there, what did you guys find was top of the list for you?

Well, there's so many cool stats and helpful stats. Sometimes not just cool, but, but, you know, troubling stats. But let's, let's run through a couple of them. So, you know, we find that pornography use is a growing problem. Three in five US adults, 61, report viewing porn, and half of those who use porn say no one knows. So I think that's something we were talking about. I love, Ashley, your energy to say, let's, let's sort of bust the lid off and talk about the stats and talk about the reality, the live reality of people. 84 of reported porn users say they don't have anyone in their life helping them avoid pornography. So not only does no one know, but there is not a lot of accountability back towards, you know, some of the ways to help. I mean, if part of what we're dealing with is a deep loneliness epidemic and an isolation epidemic, and these screens, these powerful algorithms, they seem to know us better than we know ourselves. So it's easy to kind of get sucked back into. Like, I find when I'm, you know, out of a meeting or, you know, just taking a break, I'm like, I'm. Look, you know, I open up Instagram and I'm kind of like mindlessly scrolling. So, you know, these screens are, these, they're, they're kind of. They aid and abet our loneliness and our isolation and these mental breaks that we want to take. And so I think the fact that pornography use sometimes tracks, you know, with that, that feeling of isolation and loneliness is important. We have so much interesting data around these sort of key myths which we could kind of talk, talk through, you know, at sort of one by One. We'll get to those here in a minute. But one of the, you know, I think we combust a lot of myths with this, with this study. So, for example, 70% of adults agree that men are more likely to, that women to struggle with porn addiction. And that may be true, and the stats actually prove that is true. But women also struggle as well. There's a huge percentage of women that also are struggling with porn. And we could talk a little bit some of those differences. 67% of adults believe that you can get the best of both worlds. A person can both regularly view porn and live a sexually healthy life. 66% of adults say that it's with enough willpower, a person can overcome porn addiction on their own. And I think they're missing a lot of the neurobiology and some of the other kinds of connections there. So this is a. I was rereading the report again as we sort of to like, literally hot off the press. This is my first time seeing it. I was looking at the digital report on the plane right in yesterday and just very proud of. Of you all and the team, our team, and the respondents who, who responded, even just the. The level of sort of footnoting and the contributors to the report is such a great contribution, I think, to the, you know, to the conversation around how do we identify the problem, you know, put sort of a grip on reality, context to place it in and a direction to pursue. So those are a few of the key stats.

Yeah, I think a couple of things that stood out to me as we started to get the data back was that just the main number of what percentage of Christians would acknowledge that to some degree they're viewing pornography? And it's now 54%. So we're now at a majority of the church, a majority of Christians. And I think in the past we would acknowledge, oh, yeah, it's a majority of men, but, you know, women hardly struggle at all. And a big factor of why it's a majority of Christians is because Christian women are now at 40% that would say they're to some degree using pornography. And I think that's missed by a lot of churches of, yeah, well, you know, men. Men struggle, and we know that we're going to help the men, but it's like we're at a point where two in five women would say, hey, me too. And that is driving that number to say, a majority of your congregation on any given week. This is part of their experience. And then I think that one too, on 66% thinking, oh, you can overcome this with enough willpower to do it on your own. Where we would look at other addictive behaviors, which at a brain level, pornography is impacting the brain very, very similar in terms of the neurochemicals and the addictive pathways. If someone were to say that about drugs, alcohol, gambling, like, oh, if I just have enough willpower, I can kick this, I think we'd all pause and go, well, let's think about that. You know, you've struggled for a long time. You've said you're going to stop, and yet you keep going back. Like, maybe willpower isn't what you need here. Maybe it's not about your ability to change on your own. And yet I think with pornography, because we don't see it the same way, and because it's more private and personal, we do still see it as a moral issue and something that, well, you just need to kick the habit on your own. And yet one of the other stats too, that I think is really, really compelling is when Christians were asked, do you have a problem with the amount of pornography that you're using or viewing? 49%, roughly half said, no, I don't have an issue with it. Which is, it's kind of creating this double standard. I think that on the one hand we see it's a moral problem. The stats say that most people see it as being harmful for society, harmful for relationships. But when we're asked on a personal level, like, how do you feel about what you're doing? It's like, eh, you know, not that big of a deal. Only 21% of Christians said that they wish they didn't use it at all. And so to me, that's where a lot of this really comes to the surface for why, as churches, we need to do something because we're living in this place of double standards and people aren't getting healthier and it's impacting their relationships. And part of it is some of their unfounded beliefs that, well, I can change when I want to and it's not that big of a deal. So how do we, in our teaching and discipleship, help people see a pathway to the better life, the freedom that God has invited all of us to experience?

Yeah, some of the men are like, yeah, it's not really a struggle for me. I'm like, is that because you quit last month? You know, for the 20th time and right now it's not a struggle.

The last two weeks have been awesome.

What struggle is that? Because I, you know, when my husband's disclosure came out, it's like, okay, here's a man who had a couple year history with prostitutes and decades with pornography. And he is saying, yeah, I think now that, you know, I, it's not really a struggle for me and I Was, you know, luckily, I'm assertive. And I was like, you're doing group, you're doing all the things. But he really did genuinely believe, like, okay, it's out. I feel better. It's, it's done. It's not there anymore. It's not a struggle. And mine was never as much with pornography as it was just like romantic novels, movies, and then acting out with men, but like once a year. And so I would have never self identified as I have a struggle with unwanted sexual behavior. I wouldn't have because it was like, oh, I, I made a mistake back then. But that's not like a core struggle for me because I was in church and I was doing the things. And so that's why I think it's important that we're able to put the research out there, equip them with tools that we offer at pure desire, like authentically you and Unraveled and Seven Pillars and betrayal and beyond. Because then what we're doing is we're, we're helping them see outside of what's normal for them. For, for me, if somebody says, are you stressed? Do you have a sexual addiction? It's like, this is just the way I've lived. And I'm, I feel like I'm a pretty Christian person. I'm trying. It can be really hard to be objective and know what it's called. But when we say, hey, there's, there's this many people that say they've tried to, you know, quit and they weren't able to, or that this, this issue is causing hurt in their spouse and we have tools, then it's, I think, a little easier to go. I think I, I identify with that and I could use some help there. And so proactively giving leaders and churches, just like we do with parents, you want to give them the information so then they can self identify. I think I struggle there without just the heaps of shame. The other thing I really appreciated about the report was, you know, There's a stat 75 of US pastors say they're individually ministering to those who struggle with porn, and 51% are married. And so I was also that spouse. The one woman in the church being like, I'm going to start this group. Does anybody want to join me? And, and how do you go about finding the people in your church? Like, am I the only one? Am I the one with like the loser broken husband and, or I'm not good enough to keep my husband sexually satisfied? All the shame and the embarrassment and the humiliation. And then to have numbers and research say, I cannot possibly be alone. And so I'm just gonna go ahead and start talking about it. And you know, for my story, within three years of just talking about it, even though I did it really wrong, 25 different women's groups popped up, you know, within three years. Because they're just sitting there waiting for somebody to say, this is a problem and there's a solution. And it's not just about him being sinful. And if he would stop his sin, then all your problems would go away. That betrayal, trauma is real, addiction is real, and there's, there's tools to help you.

Yeah, well, one of the things that I hear in both of what you guys just talked about is, is, is this idea of double mindedness. And our culture deals with being really of two minds about things like pornography, which is like, it's really not that big of a deal. It's probably not the best, but you know, you know, we, we can get over it if we want to. And I think the church struggles with that as well and because we often reflect the, the cultural values. So I think, you know, part of what is so important is when you look at the scriptural record and what Jesus comes to do is to put us back into an integrated place. To, to not be of two minds about things, to, to, to be not, you know, conformed to the patterns of this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. And so, you know, I hope this study can help us, you know, provide that kind of clarity. And, and by the way, I think, you know, you're alluding, as you talked about, Ashley, sort of the pop culture and the romance novels, you know, there's even more kind of soft porn on Netflix and the, you know, the streaming services. And just recognizing, you know, the. How do we help people, young people especially because they're growing up in a highly sexualized culture, how do we help them be of one mind about what it means to live a whole life? Um, again, I think there's actually some really good news. And we look at, we look at mental health, young people are more likely to talk about mental health. They're more likely to talk about issues of sex and sexuality. Those are really good news. You know, it's like, how do we even recognize like the beauty of the human body? And you know, you know, certain disciplines, like medical, in the medical space, like, you know, they deal with naked bodies and that's not, doesn't. That's not a sexual thing. Right. So I actually think this, this younger generation wants us not to hyper religious around sex and sexuality. We have to demonstrate and create communities of grace that can restore people and talk about the true nuances. Like, you know, if you look at the, the classic art in the world, right, like there are there, there are naked bodies that are sculpted and painted and depicted and you know, there's nakedness on, on some of the streaming services. So how do you acknowledge what is good about the human body and about the naked human body and recognizing this generation really wants a whole life discipleship. They would want to be of two minds. They don't want to be, you know, sort of overly, overly self righteous around certain things. And then also how do we really help them live full and healthy sexual lives and their, and their whole experience. Right. And supporting those friends who've, who've made mistakes, who've, you know, who've gotten, who've gotten stuck in patterns they didn't want. But I think, I think this notion of being single minded and single minded pursuit of what Christ wants of us and from us is such an important, like North Star and the problem of double mindedness I think is what the gospel comes to sort of help to restore us from.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So David, as you guys conducted the research and started to get the findings, was there anything about it that you found particularly surprising or unexpected along the way?

I think there's a number of things, but one of the most important ones was that Gen Z is actually among the most likely generations to say that pornography is bad for society. Half of all Gen zers say that, that pornography is bad compared to just 40% of millennials. So I think in a lot of places we're seeing this in a couple different areas, but there's almost this pendulum swing that, you know, the real, you know, openness to everything, it sort of feels like a cul de sac, a dead end for people. And so I think that's a really positive finding that, that Gen Zers are actually, you know, swinging back to a bit more conservative perspective about, about, about pornography.

Yeah.

Remind me what age Gen Z is.

They're, they're the youngest. They're like 25 and under.

25 and under. Yeah.

Okay.

Which I found as well, kind of maybe unexpected, but as you looked at it, I think affirming. And if you think about the generations, you know, millennials, Those that are mid-20s to like late 30s, early 40s, that's the generation that was in their, you know, 9, 10, 11 years old teenage years when high speed Streaming Internet was the norm, smartphones were the norm. And you actually see that that generation is the most impacted by rate of struggle, you know, impact on marriages. Like it just has really caused havoc. And you're starting to see some. I know it's, there's still a ton to address with Gen Z, but you're actually seeing some progress there other than what I would say is maybe in use in general. Gen Z, you know, men are the highest consumers of porn even while they are seeing the damages and effects. So that is something I found surprising too. Just you can kind of see in the data how the millennial generation didn't have a lot of great guidance and some were maybe making some progress with Gen Z. And yet at the same time, you can see it's so prevalent that if they're asked, you know, are you viewing porn? It's kind of like, well, yeah, they're way high on the scale and that.

So yeah, they probably try every day. I mean, it was seven years ago that my, one of my twins was like, I need to just take a cleanse from YouTube, I need to take a two week cleanse from it. And it's like it's, it's that battle of it's just right there in their pocket. And so they're probably feeling like, this is not good every day I'm going to this, but, you know, aware that it's not good.

Yeah.

All right. Well, one growing topic of focus for the church and for society at large is the focus on mental health. Can you speak to the relationship between porn use and mental health? And as someone who studies and explains data for a living, does this concern you?

Yeah, we saw a really strong correlation in the data between porn users and non porn users, both in terms of some of the positive mental health outcomes. So that non users actually have a higher probability of positive mental health and porn users have a higher probability of negative, negative sort of self, self perceptions. So for example, under the category of positive things like being deeply cared for by those around me, 71% was true for non users compared to just 2/3 of porn users at 65%. And this is basically the same pattern. So I won't repeat the percentages, but my life has a purpose. Someone believes in me, prepared for everyday life, able to accomplish my goals, happy with my appearance, satisfied with my life choices. That was a huge gap at 52% versus 60% for non users, 52% of porn users. And then even even more acutely, porn users were much more likely to hold negative self perception. So critical of myself, anxious about important decisions, afraid to fail, easily overwhelmed, need to be perfect. 31% to 18, which is almost double depressed. Life isn't worth living. 11% versus 6%. So, and I'm just saying the porn users versus non users, but if we were to even scroll, scroll more deeply into those patterns, daily users were the, the had the most negative self perceptions and the, the lowest amount of positive self perceptions. Weekly users were just slightly lower. Those who are kind of self described as moderate users, you know, once a month or less, were kind of in the middle range. And so it's like there was a just an absolute strong correlation between the frequency of porn use and how people feel about themselves. Now one of the memory verses that you have as a social researcher is that correlation doesn't equal causation. So we don't know that it's the porn use that's creating that. It could be those low mental health outcomes that help to kind of propel people towards that, or it could be a whole constellation of things. Human beings are infinitely complex, but the patterns in the data are just really compelling that the more people use porn, the more frequently they use it, the greater correlation there is with just a much tougher set of circumstances around their self perceptions. And again, I think this, one of the highest ways we could think about helping people in this time is the internal narratives about what, what it is we, who we are and what it is we're created to do, whether we're worth anything. And we did a big study with the mom company, with Mandy Arriotta and the mom company about moms and their, their challenges and their opportunities. And this idea of like the internal dialogue was a huge, huge theme. What we tell ourselves and as men, you know, like what, what is it that we tell ourselves is true about ourselves and about the world? And so I think the issues of sexuality, healthy sexuality, pornography, mental health is a lot about the internal dialogue that we have with ourselves. And what is the truest thing about the nature of reality, the nature of who God is, the nature of who we are in Christ and the struggles that we have. And you know, I'm just a huge believer that one of the central message of the cross is that we are free. We are free to be all we were made to be. You know, you're not defined by your past, you're not defined by your sin in Christ. You are a new creation. You know, it can be, you know, transformed again by the renewing of our mind. So I just think this idea of how do we help people have the right narratives about the world that they live in, the nature of reality, the nature of sexuality, the nature of pornography, the nature of grace and restoration? And so how do we help people with that inner dialogue, that self talk, so that they can be free to be all they were made to be?

Yeah, yeah. I think that was some of the compelling data to me that to just see across the board, people's mental health issues and pornography were directly connected, that the more pornography they watched, the more they reported mental unhealth. And I was thinking about the causation or correlation question of, well, does pornography cause my depression or am I going to pornography because I'm depressed?

Oh.

And I kind of think about it to say, does it really matter? Because if we see it, it could be either direction. What we see is there's an association between porn use and unhealthy mental behaviors. And I. I think it's important for us to talk about because within the Christian community, we're thankfully seeing a greater emphasis on mental health, and people want to address anxiety and depression and suicidal ideation. Like, man, we got to help people there. And if we could see. Well, it's pretty connected also to where they're at in their sexuality. And if we would help them in their sexuality, we might helping their mental health. I. I just think that's really important to see and not somehow think these are disconnected areas of help, but that really we're helping people again. We're helping them holistically integrate faith and body and their lived experience in this world. So.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Well, and I think this, this, this invitation, it's a. A broad theme within our work at Barna and coming out of COVID One of the things we're very passionate about is, is human flourishing and people flourishing in Christ. The John 10:10 picture that Jesus has come for us to have life and life to the full, an abundant life. And I was reading a book by Eugene Peterson called Traveling Light and just been reading it the last couple months through the summer. Did a lot of hiking in Colorado. So one night in a very cold tent, I read about four chapters. And basically it's a series of meditations on the book of Galatians. And I think that what Jesus talks about, that his language of freedom would have been absolutely revolutionary for its time. Right. Whom the Son sets free, you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. Right. It's for freedom that you've been set free. You know, and. And Paul's discussion of in Galatians is about circumcision and how even the early church started to get it wrong. They started to put more, you know, more and more rules and regulations on how, you know, this early Christian community was meant to live. And, you know, Paul says, having begun your life in the spirit while you're now trying to perfect it through human effort. So flourishing is sort of this. This notion, like when we disciple people and we help them to be all they were made to be in Christ, they should be free in their inner dialogue, in their hearts, in their minds, in their relationships, in their relationship to their sexuality. Of course, people get it wrong and we start putting more and more rules and regulations about what freedom really does and doesn't look like. That's the great irony that Paul is addressing there. But as for listeners, we think about this idea of the flourishing life in our relationships, in our money and our purpose and meaning, in our parenting, you know, in our mental health, in our jobs, in our relationships, in our communities, in our churches, in our workplaces. You know, we human beings, we accumulate hurt and we accumulate these. It's almost like we're these magnets for, you know, all this negativity. And I think the gospel is this thing that it is the cosmic power of the universe that God himself changes our very essence, our very genetic. We're reborn in Christ to be free. And it's such a compelling. I was reading this book from Eugene Peterson. I started to tear up at this picture of what a free life in Christ could look like to travel light. And I think that's part of the invitation of a study like this is to say, wow, look at the ways people are. Are encumbered, trapped, stuck, hiding. They can't feel like they can walk in the light. But there is a huge opportunity for us to help invite people into that free life in Christ, that traveling light life. Because whom the sun sets free is free indeed.

Yeah. Yeah. Amen.

I love that. And I think even just everything that you're talking about, there's so many people that don't see. See the correlation of their porn use impacting those areas. It's compartmentalized. I just do this because I'm bored or my wife just had a baby, or I'm a single woman. And they don't see how it radically touches every part of their relationships, their mental health, how they're feeling. And I do feel like that's what we do well at pure desire and why it's such a long process of 10 months to say, oh, how are you thinking? How are you feeling? What were you just doing before that? And starting to help connect those dots? Because I would have never thought, oh, what I do over here in secret sexually, even as a single person is causing me to underachieve or not engage in ministry the way I would normally or be fear and crave relationships at the same time. Like, I didn't put all that together. It took doing the deep unpacking to connect all those dots.

So yeah, and I think this, I mean the, the evidence of all the research from younger people, because that's my great privilege in life, is to hear from Americans and from pastors and from. We've done some global studies and with a real emphasis on hearing from Gen Z and millennials and now Gen Alpha. People actually want to be, have their double mindedness like solved. They want to be integrated and reintegrated. People want to live free. And so the church has an incredible opportunity to keep, keep doing that and keep inviting people into that larger story.

All right, big picture, David, what do you think we should do with these stats? What's the goal in your mind and for the impact this study will have on Christians, churches and even the world?

Well, I think as we've talked about today, this notion that we could have a better grip on the challenges that people face. And I know another issue that we meant to get into, but just to address it quickly is like, well, aren't the stats even higher? Isn't everybody use pornography? And actually the stats can help us really understand like not everyone struggles in the same way with this. You know, we're all sexual beings, so there is some level of repression or, or sexual expression or whatever. So there's no perfect human being. We all have to be put right in Christ in that way. But my hope is that people could live this kind of free and freer life than they have ever imagined in Christ. And the data actually helps to paint a picture of the problems, the opportunities, the gaps, the language, the words that we can use, the common experience that we all have in this. You know, maybe the stats can set us free.

Yeah, I think to me it goes back to what you said are really some of those core principles of barna, that it's to face reality. And one of the things we talk about in our workbooks is how health is a commitment to reality at all costs. That that's the starting place of our journey. If we're struggling with something is to really own it, be able to express it and not, I think as Christians Sometimes we're guilty of what Dietrich Bonhoeffer called the cleaned up confession. He said, beware of the danger of the cleaned up confession where even in confession we're still trying to look good. Like, you know, please pray for me. I've been struggling with pornography, you know, and that, that is confession. But if we know there's a type of pornography, a frequency of it, a line that we've crossed that we don't confess, we're actually even in confession still stuck in secrecy and shame of, well, if they knew the whole story, they might reject me. And so I think just to go back to that idea we see in recovery, that's where someone has to start. You've got to own your reality and be willing to walk into it. And I think for churches and Christians, this is part of it is also, like you said, we don't have to like the stats, but we have to deal with them. We have to do something to say, okay, this is my church, these are the people I know this is happening around me and not try to minimize or say, well yeah, out there or other churches like, no, this is my experience too and maybe people aren't talking about it and there's good reasons why, but this is probably the reality of what's happening around me. And then to ask that question, what can I do in my context to make a difference? And that's one of the things we want to so clearly say, and it comes out in the report, is how important community and relationships are. And frankly, right now the average person struggling with pornography, even on an occasional basis, doesn't feel very comfortable revealing their struggle to their friends, around them, to, to their church and particularly to their pastor. And I think that's an area we can change because I believe the church is equipped to be the safe, grace filled place, the landing spot where people long to come and say, I want freedom and I'm not free and here's what's going on. Would you help me with a strong confidence that they're going to say, yes, let me guide you into what we're doing and we've got a great plan. We can help. And I think unfortunately the data does say right now most people don't see their church that way. And yet our heartbeat is we can be that place. We're equipped as the people of God and his church to do exactly what is needed for healing. And so that's, I think the opportunity in the stats is to say we have the tools we need because the tools we ultimately need is safe Community, it's relationships, it's mutual support, it's honesty, it's, you know, regular confession. And the church can do that really well. We maybe just haven't applied it to this area of sexuality. So I think that's my hope. And really one of the things we hope people take out of the data is we can do something about this because of how important relationships are at the end of the day.

Yeah, amen to that. And that vision is so compelling, and I think it's so important that we really lean into this. So, I mean, several things that I heard you say there. One is just this hope in what the church can do and kind of it's, it's essential nature in helping to bring faith, freedom to people, but also a safe place for people to have this deeper conversation. So we got to practice those, those muscles, you know, practice with those muscles as much as we possibly can. And now more than ever, it's important that we learn those sets of skills because as we sort of see the future out the next, you know, five, 10 years and AI and deep fakes and more and more VR, virtual reality and augmented reality and just how, how much technology is going to be more and more integrated and sort of wearables and, you know, the, the, the, the goggles, I think we're going to see even more challenges in the days to come, you know, when it comes to just pornography and how technology keeps, you know, sort of progressing. So what do we do to help build these places for really safe, safe conversations, places of honesty and repentance and restoration and, and then again and 70 times 7. And I think it's really important that we get that right, especially in our screen age with the sheer ubiquity of the exposure that all of us are receiving.

Well, David, we are so grateful for you, for the work BARN is doing to be able to put out this report in partnership together. As we wrap up, just want to ask, is there any encouragement or what final words would you want to leave our listeners with today?

Well, it's been such a fun and great conversation with you guys. Thanks so much for your passion to do this. We're so grateful from all of us at Barna, to pure desire and to your listeners, you know, such an important mission, such an important place that you guys stand in the gap. So, you know, we're praying for you. We, we want to see you succeed and, and, you know, protected from the works of the, of the, the evil one. In my spiritual direction. Really wonderful man. I've been working with for about seven years. Named Dwayne. He'll often pray with me that I would see and experience God as my maker, my redeemer, my defender, and my friend, which comes from an old hymn. And I just want to sort of pray that and sort of give that vision that Jesus Christ himself is our maker, he is our redeemer, he is our defender, and he is our friend. And in the midst of the challenges of pornography, the challenges, all the false narratives of healthy sexuality in our culture, and for listeners who are inspired both to take a look at the stats and this new report, but also, I think there's good self reflection for any of us whom the sun sets free is free indeed. And Jesus has come to make us. He understands us. He knows our body. He's redeemed us in light of all the places where we fail. He is our defender against the accusations of the adversary, and he is our friend even in the midst of some of these challenging realities. But what a great opportunity. Like, what an exciting time for us to help witness to why the gospel matters in our culture today, in our families, in our lives, in our own bodies, in our communities, in our churches. What a compelling vision we could cast for people. Because this is such a personal place of pain, but it's also such a great place for victory in people's lives.

Yeah. Final words from you, Ashley.

Oh, I'm just excited. I'm just excited thinking, you know, just all the conversation we've had today for listeners, maybe they're struggling or a pastor, that. That there's this place you can be where this is what's familiar, this is what's comfortable, this is what feels good, but that there is so much hope and there can be a new normal, and your new normal can be so, so much more enjoyable than you can even imagine, because God is so good and you can renew your heart and your mind and your soul. So I'm excited to put this in people's hands and give them a conversation starter, like a. It reminds me of, like, Mario Kart, those little, like, energy ramps or whatever. Like, the church is going in the right direction. Like, we love the church, but maybe this will just help them, like, reignite the fire of the conversation and give them a little boost to get another wave of people being healthy again.

I love it. And now the Mario Kart imagery is, like, stuck in my mind. And so, like, porn is like the bananas on the.

Yeah, there you go.

The oils.

That's probably another podcast for another day to unpack all that imagery. Yeah, I Think what I would close with. I'm sure in our conversation for listeners, there may have been at various points, strong emotions that kind of bubble to the surface from this. It could be anger. It's what's happening. It might be your own shame over things from your past. It might be fearful about what's happening in our world. And one of the things I think that can happen when we feel strong emotions is kind of this gut reaction to push it back down, to not feel that, to try to feel safe from our own emotions. And I would just say, you know, if you're feeling those things, it's an indicator that something needs to be addressed. And that's really why pure desire is here, that we're here to help if you need to start groups in your church, we're here. If you need to find a group for yourself, we're here to help you understand what might be going on in your own patterns of behavior or your own thinking. We're here to help if it's your spouse or a family member. And so don't feel those emotions and then do nothing with them and just hope it gets better. Like, see those as the indicators there are that there's something deep here that maybe I haven't addressed. And if today's conversation can become that spark to help you take a next step, we'd be very, very grateful for that. So, David, this has been so good. We believe in you and in the work that you are doing with Barna, and we're grateful for the partnership that we've had on this project and so glad to have this new information out in the world. We know that in some ways it can be hard for people to hear. We know that in other ways it can feel for some like a little bit of white noise. Like, well, yeah, people struggle. What else is new? But it really is our hope and prayer that this report will open eyes, spark new conversations, and lead to an era of change and transformation in the church and in our world. So thank you so much for being a part of that and for being a part of our conversation today.

Yeah. Nick, Ashley, thanks so much for having me.

Yeah. So if you're a fan of the content, please subscribe, share it with somebody you know, or write us a review. It helps other people find the conversation. And if you want to know more about our groups, resources or counseling, go to PureDesire.org and you can also find more about beyond the porn phenomenon there on our website or@varna.com journey on. My friends, you are not alone.