384 - Reclaiming Authentic Intimacy w/ Juli Slattery (Part 3/8)

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Hello, good listener. Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. I am your host, Nicholas J. Stumbo. And this is your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from all kinds of compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 384, and here joining me is my co host, Ashley Jamison. Ashley, good to see you today. How you doing?

I am really glad to be here talking about this.

Yeah, this was a great topic. We are now on our third episode of talking about a new report, some stats and data about pornography use and Christians and the world called beyond the Porn Phenomenon. The first two weeks, we had David Kinnaman, the president CEO of the Barna Group that did the research with us, and then one of their data experts, Daniel Copeland, last week. And now this week, we're kind of stepping back and starting to interview some of the ministry experts that were interviewed for the report. And today we got to speak to a good friend of the show, someone we really highly value, the creator of Authentic Intimacy and the person who coined the phrase sexual discipleship, and that's our guest, Julie Slattery. So, Ashley, what were your thoughts or just takeaways from today's conversation with Julie Slattery?

Yeah, I was really excited to dive into this part of it and even just Julie's approach on that it that we do need to think about it as discipleship, that it's. That this is a process and this is a human problem and this is a male and female problem. And. And I love how her focus really is about what intimacy is supposed to look like. And we even talk about intimacy as a single person, that we. We tend to just associate sex as intimacy, and that's. That's not it. So I'm really glad we get to unpack that today for. For everyone.

Yeah, and today was around a lot of the misconceptions, I think, that people hold about pornography or sexuality. And, you know, for our listeners, some of these might be like, oh, yeah, I totally don't believe that, but a couple of them might hit home, be like, oh, wait a minute, isn't that true? And I hope people can just be open to letting their paradigms be challenged and maybe thinking about a better way to view this whole topic.

Yes, yes.

Any other thoughts over there, Ashley, or should we dive in?

I think we should dive in. It's good.

Okay, well. Well, you're in for a treat. A little bit more about Julie Slattery before we get started. She is a clinical psychologist, an author, speaker, and as I mentioned, the president and founder of Authentic Intimacy. She earned a college degree from Wheaton College and a master's in psychology from Biola University and another master's and a doctorate degree. So again, we interview really smart people. She got a doctorate degree in clinical psychology from the Florida Institute of Technology. Many listeners may know her from the year she was on with Focus on the Family. She was a writer, teacher, co host of the Focus on the family broadcast from 2008 to 2012. And then in 2012 she left to start Authentic Intimacy, which is a ministry devoted to reclaiming God's design for sexuality. In 2020, Julie launched sexualdiscipleship.com a platform designed to help Christian leaders navigate sexual issues and questions with gospel centered truth. And if you have never visited sexualdiscipleship.com it is well worth your time to just the foundation she has created there. Julie is the author of 12 books and the host of her weekly podcast, Java with Julie. She and her husband Mike are the parents of three grown sons and they live in Akron, Ohio. And now here is our conversation with Dr. Julie Slattery and the new report, beyond the Porn Phenomenon. Julie Slattery, welcome to the show. So great to have you today.

So good to be with you all. I'm excited about this conversation.

Yeah. Well, we are on part three of our series of unpacking the data from beyond the Porn Phenomenon and with you today. Really wanted to get into the conversation that you have in the report and talk about some of the misconceptions that can hover around this topic when it comes to pornography and sexuality in the church. And so let's dive into that why and kind of start with more of an overview question. Why do you think so many misconceptions are common in this area when it comes to pornography and sexuality and maybe especially within the church?

Yeah, you know, I think there are a number of reasons. One is that we just do not talk about it. And when you don't talk about something, you just start to create your own ideas of things and your own perception of things. But the second thing that happens is the culture's understanding or narrative of things really start to become what we feel like is truth. And we have such a profound cultural narrative around sexuality that really says it's all about my pleasure. It really has been so impacted by pornography that as the report showed, you know, the average Christian doesn't even know that there's something wrong with pornography. And so you've got that combination of really a lot of silence on the Christian family and church side and the culture being very aggressive about shaping our way of thinking about our sexuality and pornography. So I think those two together really account for a lot of the misconceptions and the myths that people have.

Yeah, we're going to talk about it in one of our other episodes. But when, when people are asked, you know, where. Where do most people get their information about sex? I think the top answers were friends and social media. And to me, it feels a little bit like a giant game of telephone. I don't know if you ever played telephone in like, youth group days where, you know, one message gets whispered from one kid to the next to the next and it, you know, it starts out like Julie went to the store for groceries and it ends up as Justin went kite surfing or something totally different. You're like, where did that come from? And it's just all these little conversations that get twisted and turned. And I feel like that sometimes is the message we get about sexuality. It's kind of based on people's flawed experiences and not the reality of what we can expect in a relationship. And so we're just. If we don't have other reliable sources, we're going off of what we know and what we've heard from others. And that often is not a great place to base our understanding of true sexuality and as God intended it.

So I even think about as a parent, you know, when we're watching TV and a sexual scene comes on and we may flip it and what we say of, oh, that's inappropriate, or that's just those little subtle messages we hear not only in our home, but from our church or hearing nothing. But when we only hear, you know, sex outside of sin, sex outside of marriage is a sin, or you're not pure if you have sex before marriage, we're not hearing any positivity about our sexuality and about sex. And so then people enter marriage and they're from TV and what they've been told, they think it's just supposed to be this wonderful experience and it's not matching, you know, and so then it's like, okay, well, what's wrong with me? Or not even having the courage to talk about it in an honest way. Because there have, there haven't been these spaces to talk about God's sexuality in a. In a healthy, positive way and not just the negatives about it or the don't do's about it.

Yeah, I love what you said there, Ashley. I, I don't think we can underestimate the, the impact of media on the way we think about sex. You know, I just saw a study, I think, last week that said Americans spend an average of almost 12 and a half hours a day consuming media. I mean, that's like, when do we work, when do we sleep? If it's 12 and a half hours a day. But it's. It's our music, it's the podcasting, it's the shows we stream. And each one of those has a very subtle, sometimes overt message about how to think about our sexuality, what is the purpose of our sexuality, what a romantic relationship supposed to look like. And it shapes the narrative of how we think about our sexuality. And then, as you mentioned, when we get messaging from Christian sources, often it's just about what the biblical standard is. It's, you should not be doing this or you should be doing that. And there's this huge gap between how I think about my sexuality and what I'm experiencing versus what I know God wants me to be doing. And very little discipleship on how to bridge that gap.

Yeah, that's so good to be thinking about. And I. That's shocking about the media, but I get it. I'm always looking at my phone and seeing how much use I have. And we're plugged in all the time, and a lot of us work with media, so. Okay, you were quoted in the barn report saying many Christians view porn as being a behavioral ethic and not as a deeply spiritual battleground. What do you mean by this?

Yeah, I really mean that when we look at what we're doing, Christians are told, this is a good thing to do and this is a bad thing to do. And pornography is usually classified as the bad thing to do for good. For good reasons. But we tend to think about it in terms of behavioral choices. And, man, I really shouldn't be looking at that, or I should stop looking at pornography or thinking about sex that way. But we don't recognize is that there is a pretty massive spiritual battle around the whole topic of human sexuality. And it's not primarily like a culture war. It's a spiritual battleground because God created sex to be a pretty profound form of revealing what his covenant love is like. And there's a lot there theologically to unpack. But sex isn't ultimately about what it says about us. It's about what is revealing about our creator. And I really believe, I've been in this ministry now for over 12 years, that Satan knows the impact of our sexuality, and he has really targeted this aspect of our humanity to distort and to used to discourage us. And when we only think about pornography as a behavioral ethic, we will try to control our behavior. We'll feel a lot of shame for not meeting a standard we feel like we should meet instead of recognizing that it's a spiritual battle that I can't win without the weapons that God has given me of his word, his presence, prayer, the community of believers. And so a lot of Christians are losing this battle because they don't recognize what it is and they don't know how to fight it.

Yeah, there's definitely a bifurcation. You like that? That's a million dollar word for the day.

Yeah, I like it.

It's a.

There's a bifurcation between your body and your spirit of like, this is what I do with my body and it doesn't really impact my soul, my spirit. And in some ways we've been taught to think that as kind of having separate parts of our experience in this world. But I do think it's what contributes to 61% of Christians saying they don't have a problem with their porn use. It's because of this divide that, well, that's just something I do with my body. But over here I worship and I pray and I go to church and I'm doing all the right things. So I just, I need to stop this behavior thing with my body. When really we're a connected being and what we do with our body impacts our soul and our spirit and vice versa. And I think if we can kind of bring ourselves back together as whole integrated beings and see that what I do with my body, what I do with my sexuality, is driven by what I feel and experience at a much deeper place. And what I believe to be about true, about God and my identity, my worth and my value, those things are all connected to what I end up doing with my body. And so if, if we see it through that lens of this is a spiritual battleground of where the enemy is trying to continue to plant lies and misconceptions that what I ultimately then do with my body is a byproduct of that, I think we do have a much better chance of addressing the issue because now we're addressing it holistically and not just trying to fix a body problem that does go deeper into our soul and our spirit.

That's what I love about what we do with the taking the clinically informed and biblically based. Because, you know, until I found my own freedom from sexual issues and betrayal, trauma, both, I. I felt that Struggle, that tug of war of just trying to plug holes in it, going from one addiction to another. And okay, maybe I wouldn't act out sexually, but I'd start overeating or compulsively eating or shopping. And I always tried that method of what Bible study could I get into, what prayer group could I get into? What spiritual ritual could I do to try to make myself feel at peace and wor. And worthy of being in ministry? I never felt worthy. It wasn't until I was forced to deal with those issues and fully unroot, uproot all of those problems I was having, that then the connection of feeling spiritually and physically free to do God's work and feel joy in it connected for me. And I needed that clinical piece to understand. When I'm reading scripture and it's saying, these are the consequences of this, I needed that connection to say, no, this is actually changing your body too. And it. And it all feeds into each other. And that was. That was definitely my experience.

Yeah, I bet that was powerful. And, you know, Ashley, you know, a few things you said that I'd love to bounce off of. You know, first of all, we've got to understand that, you know, evil's primary goal is not just to get us hooked on porn, but to create these barriers between us and God. And people who are wrestling with a pornography issue, they feel like shame, like God can't really accept me. They feel powerless. I can't stop doing this. But then often, and usually there's. There's trauma underneath that. And, you know, the research, as you all know, shows that we. We can use pornography like a drug, can use sex like a drug, and to try to make up for feelings of rejection. And I don't feel connected to people, and I feel lonely or anxious or depressed. And so getting off porn is not just about, you know, following a list of things that you do, but really inviting God into those spaces that are wounded and inviting God into those. That shame and that doubt, which is, I know what your heart is at pure desire. And what we love to do at authentic intimacy as well.

Yeah, yeah. We want to reconnect body, soul and spirit to God and in community with other people. And by the way, if my wife listens to this episode and hears that I use the word bifurcation, she is going to give me such a hard time. When. When I used to preach and I would use big words, she would just, like, roll her eyes and. Anyway, Julie, I want to circle back to what you said at the beginning that One of the issues is we just don't talk about this. And in the report, you state that one of the reasons that there is very little difference percentage wise between Christians and non Christians in this area. And I think that surprises a lot of people because we would think, man, in our Christian ethic, there's probably a big difference between how many people are viewing pornography, and it's actually really quite small. And you state that one of the reasons for that is our silence around this topic. So why do you feel like silence contributes to Christians using porn?

Yeah, for a few reasons. First of all, there aren't safe places to learn about healthy sexuality. So if. If all those messages from media and social media and the culture are painting a picture of, this is what it looks like to be sexually whole. And it involves things like your own desires and pursuing pornography, and you don't have an alternative vision of wholeness even within marriage. What is a sexually whole marriage look like? If we're not painting that picture for people, then they don't have an alternative narrative. But second of all, when the church is silent, it means that we have no safe place to go for help. And so, you know, the research shows that the vast majority of our young men and now young women are being exposed to pornography, but they have no safe place to go to say, hey, help me with this. Like, I don't know what to do with this. I don't know what to do with the shame. I don't know what to do do with my devices and the draw I have towards pornography. And so what ends up happening is that pattern just deepens and deepens. As you all know what happens in the brain with pornography, it becomes a. A true addiction or stronghold. You know, people are so surprised, as we should be, when we see Christian leaders who have this great love for the Lord fall sexually. Well, that. That temptation started somewhere way back in their past when it could have been dealt with in a way that really could have set them free. But because of the silence and the lack of opportunity to deal with things, this happens to leaders and laypeople. We don't have a safe place to go for help and discipleship, which means that we just get more and more entrenched in the world's way of thinking and in the behaviors that are destructive.

Yeah, I think of it like the metaphor that if I have a small pipe leak in my house and there's a wet spot on my carpet, you know, if I call for help right away to a plumber or someone that understands how to Fix it. It could be a fairly minor issue, but if I don't know who to go to and I just kind of ignore it and pretty soon I have three feet of water in my house, you know, now I've got a much, much bigger issue and asking for help while it's still what I need to do it, it feels more embarrassing and the fix is actually going to take a lot longer. And so how do we create places where, particularly at a young age, Christians see, no, this is something God cares about. And I think that was one of my experiences in not really hearing about sexuality at church is I came to the conclusion that God doesn't really have much to say about sexuality. And so in that area of my life, I've got to go figure that out by myself. When the truth is God has a lot to say in his word about this area and what he made us for. And if we hear about that and see that, like you said, Julie, it is safe to say, man, I think I've got a little place in my life where there's a leak. There's something that's not really right or working. But it's okay to say, could someone help me fix this? We can navigate those issues much sooner. But it really starts with having that topic be heard in a positive way in our church. To say, God has something to say and wants to be deeply involved in your life in this area.

Yeah, I always think, I always lump leaders and parents together because I feel like so many of the principles are the same of having fear that if we talk about this and understand that breaking free of sexual struggles has to be a process, most of the time it's not something somebody can just pray one scripture and it's done that. If we open up to saying, this might be a process and you might struggle for a while that it almost gives permission or says, we're open to this sin. And I remember even my boys are adults, somebody saying, how do you listen to what they're doing as 20 year old boys and as a Christian, it's like, how do you listen to that? I said, well, they're 20. And I remember being 20. And if I don't, if I want to just come down on them for everything and say, that's not biblical, that's not the way God wants you to be doing that. Or shouldn't you be praying more scripture? They're not gonna come to me anymore. And slowly I've seen them come to me more and more and more. And I think as parents and leaders it's that balance of that fear of us talking about it, giving permission that it's okay to struggle. But we have seen time and again that just confessing does usually not work. You know, that we want people to come to us over and over, but then if they do the second or third time and say, I made a mistake again, our tendency as churches can be, well, why are you not, you know, why are you not applying what I taught you last time? And it's really a process. It takes a while. Like Nick said, if it's been years, it's going to take likely years to renew those pathways and undo those behaviors.

Yeah. And actually, I think, you know, that brings up so often when we do talk about these issues, we use testimonies, which are great, but the testimonies are 15 or 20 minutes. And it's like, I used to struggle with pornography, or I cheated on my spouse and God intervened, and now we're doing great. And it doesn't give people the true vision of this is an ongoing battle. You know, like, people relapse, they struggle, they feel like, man, I'm in the same place I was two or three years ago. Why are things not changing? And the reality of it is God is working when we pursue him and we pursue healing. But it's a long road of healing and restoration and, you know, we need to give people that expectation that it's not a one and done, but it's being willing to go on that journey.

Yeah. Realistic visual of what the journey. And not in a discouraging way, but exactly what you said. I went to a recovery church, and before all of my things came out, it was like, I saw people do that. Before Christ, my life looked like this. And after Christ, I'm like, what's wrong with me? So, yeah, yeah, we need those gaps filled in of the connection of how we got there and how we're still working. Okay, well, a big question we get is about singles. So what does it mean for a single person to be sexual? Churches can focus so much on marriages that we forget that all humans married and singled, are sexual beings.

Yeah, boy, that's a question that we get all the time as well. We so often just equate being a sexual being with having sex that we often don't even have a category for what is it to be a gendered person who has sexual desire but isn't having sex. And. And that's a distinction that we really need to make. That our sexuality is the aspect of our humanity, physical, relational, emotional, that has A capacity for sex and sexual relationships, but actually is wired for intimacy. And there's uniqueness in male, female, in the way that we interact even in our non sexual relationships in our communities. And so really giving singles of vision for you still are made in the image of God, male or female, as a sexual person, you have desires and longings. But helping I think singles understand that ultimately you weren't created for marriage and ultimately you weren't created for sexual. Those may be part of the human experience for you, but you were created for intimacy. And learning to channel our desires for connection, our desires to be known into what it is to form intimate communities and relationships. So that in and of itself is, I think, a whole field of discipleship that particularly the Western church has neglected. Like we only know to say sex is for marriage, someday you'll get married. Well, the reality is that over 40% of American adults, adults are single. So there needs to be a lot of discipleship on what does it mean to be single, maybe never married or single again, and honor God with our sexuality because again, the messages that we're getting is, you know, if you can't have sex or something wrong with you.

Yeah, sometimes the message we give single people is if you're not married, just, just keep a lid on it. And all those thoughts or desires like just keep it pushed down. And I think people feel like they are pushing down on that lid as hard as they can. And then, you know, something goes outside, it's like, oh no, push it back down and just repress it. And obviously if we're single, we do need to be cautious about what we expose ourselves to or what, what stirs up desire in a way that we're not ready for. You know, Song of Solomon says, do not awaken love until it pleases, until the right time. But at the same time, we're not giving people language to understand that I am sexual outside of marriage. God made me. And, and being able to look at our desires, many of them, as being rooted in God's creation and God's goodness. And having single people have the freedom to ask the question, God, how can I channel, like you said, how can I channel this desire in a healthy and good way, even while I'm waiting for a day where I might be marriage or if I feel called to lifelong singleness. And I've mentioned that too to many guys in group, especially as a single guy, is wrestling with kind of treating marriage as the ultimate finish line in life of, well, if I'm not married, I'm Living a lesser life. And I say, man, I, I'm so glad that Jesus didn't feel that way. And many of the prophets and apostles that, as far as we know, were never married, never had sex. And I don't think we would look at them and say, well, you lived kind of a half life because you never got married. You know, really, in every generation of the church before this one, it feels like there was a very high value on celibacy and on people that would actually choose celibacy as a way of honoring Christ and serving him. If someone does that now, it's like, what's wrong with you? Why would you do that? Because we've so platformed marriage versus seeing that man. We can be sexual and single and do it in a healthy way. And I think there's a lot of work to be done to kind of reimagine that in today's day and age.

Yeah, and I want to use your, your fancy word, bifurcation, too. You know, we sort of have bifurcated conversations about sexuality to married people and single people. And I think that's really a mistake because I think even our singles need to recognize and understand is that marriage is not a sexual free for all. And that when you get married, you have new challenges of how do I channel my desires, how do I love my spouse? We're going to have mismatched desires. We're still going to have, you know, desires that we need to submit to the Lord because they're wrong. And, and so I think when we get singles and married together, we can both appreciate.

Wow.

That it's. Where's there's struggles both ways. Like, like there's discipleship and self control and surrender required for both the single Christian and married Christian. And so I think those conversations help flesh that out and we can really learn from one another.

Yeah, that's such a good point. I will say that I, I'll say, oh, I was a single after sex because I was divorced. And so I had to live in that, like, land where you figured out what that looked like for four or five years. And, and even in marriage, because with marriage, like you're saying, the challenge is as a betrayed spouse, there's been seasons where sexual intimacy was not part of our game. Or as a wildland firefighter, my husband will go away all summer and, and just having to figure out in those seasons what that looks like to be a sexual single in my marriage. And, and I got a good picture of this the other day because my husband John, he was Building a little roof cover thing for our, in our whole house generator, you know, so it could stay next to our house. And he felt so just like I am, man. I just built this roof. And he actually went on our property and like cut down small trees and built the whole thing out of small trees from our property. And we had some extra metal. He didn't spend anything. I mean, it was very impressive. But I saw this just like genuine fulfillment and joy in him that night where it was like, hey kids, let's do our Bible. Do you want to play a game? Do you want to. He's like, do you want to carve pumpkins? I'm like, it's 9 o' clock at night. But he was just this engaged version of himself that was so joyful. And other seasons I can see him really struggling to like, need something, need a video game, need a movie. Just this discontentment. And I, and I was like watching this. I don't, I didn't articulate it to him, but I said he found something that made him feel like he was really tapping into this creativity that God has given him. This individuality. It doesn't involve me. It's his own thing. And I just saw it give him genuine like hit all the pleasure, you know, parts of his brain. And at some point I was like, you need to go to bed. He's like, my dopamine is on full blown, you know, and I'm just. It was really cool to see that. And so, and relating that back to when I was single. It's so important to have your own identity as a whole person outside of your spouse, whether you're married or single, and just be able to keep all of those different buckle buckets, spiritual, physical, emotional, non sexual, touch full and so that you, you're not feeling deprived in any intimacy.

Yeah. Well, let's dive in, Julie, to some of the misconceptions that specifically got asked about in the beyond the Porn phenomenon report. One of the stats found that 67% of people believed that a person can both view pornography and live a sexually healthy lifestyle. And as we talked about the differences between Christians and non Christians, even on an answer like this is quite small. So why would you say that pornography and sexual health do not go together in a day and age? When many try to say, oh, sex, you know, porn can spice up your sex life, it can prepare you. What, what, what's the, what are the problems there in how those two really combat or work against one another?

Yeah, you know, Nick, it really comes down to how do you define sexual health? And like we talked about earlier, we have been taught by the culture how to think about what is healthy. And, and so our culture says sexual health is when you get to have what you want, when you feel like you can express your desires, you can express yourself, you can have the sex or the sexual experience that you most desire. And, and if we're using that framework for sexual health, you can see why people would say, okay, well, pornography isn't opposed to that. Actually, it helps me discover what I want and it gives me immediate access to anything I might desire. But when we look at really the research and also rooted in scripture, what sexual health is, we find that sexual health is really linked to intimate partnership. That God created sex to be something that you do to celebrate and remember a covenant promise that I'm going to be with this person for the rest of our lives. And this is a way for us to connect. It's a way for us to enjoy each other. It's a way for us, even through things like oxytocin and dopamine, to be more deeply rooted to one another. And when we take sexual expression outside of that covenant or long term relationship, we actually are confusing our brains. We're teaching our brains that sex is all about what I want. And then even if you try to take sex within that relationship, that long term relationship, but your body and brain have been hooked on pornography. It sets you up for the wrong expectations. And we see this all the time where you have, you know, a young man or woman or older, young or older man or woman who gets married and they can't even be aroused by their spouse because their spouse's amazing naked body or touching just doesn't do it for them because their brain has been so wired to respond to something that's unnatural and to respond to what I want, when I want it, that they're unable to enter into that space of actually learning to love each other. Well, and I know you guys know these of statistics, but when we look at even, you know, sexual inability or impotency and young man, we've never seen it where it is today. Where. Yeah, it's just. And is that really what people want? It's not. It, it causes embarrassment and shame and grief. So this is not setting us up for sexual health. And part of it, you know, I would argue is we really have to examine how we're defining sexual health.

I think one of the other lies that we're taught is that sexual health equals frequency. And pornography can contribute to that but actually, pornography works against frequency because we're getting our needs met somewhere else. And like you said, it's confusing the brain. But I think one of the ways we would define sexual health is its fulfillment and mutual fulfillment within a marriage. That when we have physical sexual connection, we're both at a place of satisfaction, and the brain is designed that way. But when we're viewing pornography or incorporating that into our lifestyle, we're actually less likely to feel fulfilled, even through intimacy with our spouse, because our brain is confused. And it actually creates this cycle that we're always looking for more and more because we're not quite fulfilled by that experience. And so I would just encourage people, if in your marriage you're really looking for that mutually fulfilling sexual experience, pornography simply cannot be part of the equation because it is setting you up for disappointment and the need to always have more and more and more.

And even on the. Even on the women's side, when I have women come to me and they say they can't have orgasm in their marriage, they want to learn how to. And I will ask, well, are you masturbating or using toys? I mean, what, like, bring it all back to neutral? And it's like, okay, we're gonna cut all sugar out of our diet, and then honey and peanut butter are gonna be the greatest things on earth again. And rather than all these, you know, fake sugars and. And it. And it's. It's so true, because that is what we see over and over and over, that we've conditioned ourselves. And even. Even things like romance novels and romance books, it doesn't just have to be sexual. It can be. If, you know, if. If I'm emotionally being invested in a TV show or a book, and then my normal spouse with his normal flaws, and he's not, you know, riding in on a horse, you know, as a Viking or something, can make me like, you're just so regular. And I see that with women and. And they're. They're dissatisfied in their. In their marriages. And. And I'll say we need to pull out all those things that are giving us those false expectations, whether it's romantic or sexual, and just bring it back to exploring with our spouses. And again, we. We touched on this in another question. Even newlyweds that you don't have to come in sex ready. This is your opportunity to get to discover together. And, you know, with the erectile dysfunction in the young men, it's a little easier to hide as a woman, but is that really what you want to go through the rest of your marriage faking sexual connection and orgasm? Or do you want to be able to bring it back all out on the table and say, what are we doing in our marriage, both of us, that's contributing to this disconnect here? And how can we grow and.

And.

And be honest and. And have fun figuring it out together?

Yeah, well, and really what we're talking about is pornography and romance novels and things you're mentioning, they erode safety in the sexual relationship, you know, because if. If I'm being intimate with my husband and I say, hey, what are you thinking about? And he says, oh, I'm thinking about this image of some other woman, does that make me feel safe? Does that make me feel loved and accepted? No, it does the opposite. We learn to lie to ourselves and to each other, and we learn just to share our bodies and not to be working towards true oneness and safety. And so it undermines the very thing that we want sex to be in the long run.

Right? And in those moments, we need to be brave enough to pause, pause what we're doing so we don't keep reinforcing those connections. Okay. Another stat is 66% believe that with enough willpower, a person can kick this habit on their own. We kind of. Of talked about this a little bit, but what has your experience been as you help others? Do you find this to be true?

No, I don't. I have heard very few, if no stories of somebody just saying, oh, I decided not to look at pornography, and I stopped. Sometimes that can work for a few months. You can put some external controls like covenant eyes or things like that on your devices, and it helps. But as we've already talked about, this is usually a deeply rooted problem of learning to cope with life using pornography and the secretism around it and the shame around it means it just gets so entrenched in you that sometimes you can have six, eight months of sobriety, and then you. You end up right back to the place that you were. And this can be devastating for both a person who's struggling and if they're in a relationship, for their spouse to be like, wow, I thought we already dealt with this, and here we are again. And so recognizing that, again, this is a journey, and it has to involve other people. I think that's the other myth is, you know, just me and God, we can deal with this. I'll confess my sin. You know, I'll pray more, I'll read my Bible more. But just really the way that God has wired us to heal is we need, we need to be connected with other people on this journey. Which is why I'm such a huge fan of pure desire. Because you give that opportunity to be honest and transparent with others who are struggling and be on that journey with you towards wholeness and healing.

Yeah. When I was in church ministry, I occasionally got to go into the prison and meet with people that wanted a chaplain's call. And I found it remarkable that in those years of doing that, I never met with a first time drug offender. They were always repeat. And so one of my questions to them and when they were meeting with me as the chaplain, they were like, this is it, I'm clean, I'm doing it God's way, I'm never coming back. And I would ask them, well, what's going to be different when you go out? And they would really struggle to answer that question. And I would try to gently point out, you're going back to an environment where whether it's your friendships, where you live, your pattern of life has taken you into drugs and all of those reminders are still there. And maybe you're going to have willpower for a while, but pretty soon your circumstance and environment will take you back. And if you put that same idea into the use of pornography, you know, we have that drug addiction, so to speak, the dopamine, the chemical high in the brain, only we carry it with us. So the circumstance we go back into is being carried around in our brain, in our bodies, in our memories. And the thought that I could just do it alone, because we would never say to a drug addict, oh yeah, you can do it alone, just have more willpower, we'd say, no, you're going to need to make changes. Well, the changes we need to make with the help of God and others are in our brains. And to think I can navigate that alone is really, I think, an area of foolishness. And we're going to become that repeat offender that keeps saying, okay, this time will be different. Well, what are you going to change? Well, I'm just not going to do it. Well, history. And a whole lot of people would say that's simply not going to be enough.

Yeah, because if we're just relying like you said, Julie, just God and myself, which I hear so much because the power of Jesus is so great. But then what happens when you keep messing up? Then you start to believe there must be something wrong with me and my salvation because I don't have enough faith to change this. And that's how I felt. And Then it was the realization that the reason why I'm in this situation is because I have some faulty thinking. And if I continue to pursue Jesus with just my own faulty thinking or, you know, shame or pain that has happened to me over my life, then I'm going to keep ending up with the same result. I needed somebody else to say, this is not godly thinking, this is a lie you picked up somewhere along the way. And so it's not that the, our whole thing we do at Pure Desire is all about Jesus, but for me it was realizing, believing who I really am in Jesus and acting it out. There was some brokenness there that I couldn't see and I needed others to help me connect the dots and understand the truth of that.

Yeah, so this is a good one, Julie. And I think a misconception that maybe people even within the church really hold to. 63% believe that using pornography is a safe alternative to other unhealthy sexual behaviors. So people might think, well, you know, at least it's not an affair, I'm just using porn. Or this is keeping someone from abuse or other forms of sexual activity. Why might pornography use not be as safe as the majority of people believe?

Yeah, well, I can, I can see where people get there, you know, I mean, just logically, if you're thinking about for example, a 20 year old kid, would you rather have them sleeping around or looking at pornography? And it's like, well, you know, the consequences immediately of pornography seem to be less than sleeping around with sexually transmitted diseases and the potential of a pregnancy that, that you're not planning for. So I understand that. But what we need to understand is first of all, this is always said, but pornography is not a victimless, you know, act that there are people engaged in creating pornography, the majority of them under some kind of duress.

Yeah.

And often involving sex trafficking. And so we have to understand that, that we're, we're looking at another human being that for whatever reason they, they are in the place that they are, we're abusing them, even if we're not physically present with them and contributing to prostitution and sex trafficking and things that we would all agree are not good and are destructive for human flourishing. But the second thing, and this, you know, kind of ties into a lot of what we've already talked about, pornography impacts. You know, you're not likely in the moment to get a sexually transmitted disease by looking at pornography, but the research shows that when you engage with pornography, you're more likely to begin acting out the kinds of things that you're watching, including violent sexual activity, including being promiscuous, but also it's impacting your brain. And as the report showed, there is a detrimental effect to your mental health and your relationships when you're looking at pornography. So, you know, I think we have to say, okay, like, what's worse, eating a donut or smoking a cigarette? Like, all right, well, maybe eating donuts, a donut is not quite as bad for your health as smoking cigarettes, but it's still horrible. And if eat donuts every day, you're not going to thrive. And so we can't just say, well, you know, because it's not sleeping around, pornography is acceptable. No, it is. It has its own form of dangers and harm for yourself and for others that we need to recognize.

Yeah. I think the statement is that pornography is a pathway. And to ask the question, where is this pathway leading me? And I remember in my own journey hearing about some of the brain research that shows there are parts of our brain that don't know the difference between fantasy and reality, that what we're viewing in our brain is real. And so also, I think it needs to be said that pornography has never been more violent than it is today and degrading and abusing to women. And if that's what we're consuming in our brain, with a part of our brain that doesn't know the difference between fantasy and reality, we are on a pathway that leads towards sexual violence. And I think even as people hear this, they might say, oh, well, I would never cross whatever line. But the truth is, pretty much every person I've done group with, including myself, has parts of their story that they had said, well, I would never do that. And because we didn't actually face it proactively, we ended up doing that. And that's not to say that everyone viewing porn will become some kind of sexual perpetrator of violence. But that is the pathway. And those that end up in that place have said the same thing. I never thought I would be here, but they look back and say, this is where my path led me to. And so I think if we can see that, like, where does this path lead? We'd say, well, man, I want to go in a different direction because that is where this path leads, and I don't want to go there.

Well, even what you're saying, Nick, that maybe not everybody will become violent. But what I hear in the women's groups is my husband doesn't have respect for me. He's not valuing me. I Don't feel treasured. And so maybe they're not going to. Even though a lot of people do escalate into to very bad behaviors that they say, I wish I never got here, how did I get here? But a lot of people, I would say the majority, it still impacts their view of others and relationship and even just desensitizes us to valuing other people and their feelings and their wants and their needs. So what I can see, it's like my own little research pool of overseeing the groups department for nine years, is it's very common to have anxiety, depression, suicidal ideations. These are all things that we see on a regular basis. We've had suicides from people who have relapsed. That it's not harmless and it does impact you in so many ways. And we see that. And so it really, really just can't ignore the detrimental effects that it has. 60% believe viewing porn can help improve their sex life life. Why is using porn not a good way for a married couple to spice up their sex life?

All right, so again, we have to go back to health. Okay, so what, what is a great sex life between a married couple? And how do you define that? And unfortunately, I think even a lot of Christian couples would define it based on, like you said, Nick Frequency, you know, are we climaxing? You know, are we excited about this? And they don't look at the fact that if you only take that aspect of your sex life and you ignore other aspects of what it takes to build intimacy, you're going to have a very unbalanced and in some cases destructive sex life. Because sex is about, it's not just about what's happening in the body. It's not just about the pleasure, it is about that. But it's also about creating a safe, safe place for you and your spouse to be open and honest, to be fully known. You know, God created sex in that we become physically vulnerable, our bodies are naked. But he created sex also to be a place where we can learn to be relationally and emotionally naked with our spouse. And so pornography does the exact opposite. It only focuses on the body. It doesn't invite you into sharing the deepest aspects of who you are. It doesn't teach us to love well. It actually teaches us not to love each other well. It teaches us to be selfish and not unselfish. And so when we look at the long term terrain of marital sexuality, you know, I've been married now for 30 years, so we've been married a while and hopefully God will give Us many more years. But that's a long journey of growing in intimacy, growing in trust, growing through seasons of good times and bad times and, and really treasuring the gift of sex that God has given us. And so pornography might be that immediate hit.

Yeah.

Of for six months. It spices things up, but it erodes the safety, the faithfulness element, the intimacy element that really makes sex beautiful in the long term. I don't know if you guys saw this study, but I recently saw a study that showed that pornography increases the chances of infidelity by 300%.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah. So it's breeding in you this, this concept of I should get what I want sexually and if my spouse doesn't live up to that, then I have the right to go somewhere else. And so again, this is going to erode the faithfulness that's necessary not just for a healthy sex life, but for a healthy marriage.

Yeah, that's exactly how I've heard it said that this might be a short term win, quote unquote, but a long term loss because the brain is triggered by curiosity, novelty, excitement, risk. But in that moment, you're creating something that only perpetuates. My spouse in and of themselves is not enough. And back to what you were saying about like sugar, Ashley, if, if I continually need a bigger hit of sugar, then the natural things that God has created like fruits and honey are like, oh, that's not as good. And the goal isn't that you have some pleasurable experience. The goal is that mutual connection and fulfillment with your spouse that God has given you and called to that lifelong journey together. So I think we do have to be able to step back and say what's going to propel us for that lifelong connection. Even if maybe in the short term we need to do some hard work, we need to ask some hard questions, we need to get some help, we need to go to a counselor. Yeah. That might feel like a short term loss because it takes time and effort and it might involve risk or embarrassment. But if that creates a long term win and true health, then it's better by far because of what you will reap as a reward year after year after year.

Yeah. Every single friend, believer friend or non believer friend that tells me their spouse is not sexually interested or doesn't really want to have sex. My first question is always, are they looking at porn? And more often than not, it's yes, it's not the people who are already in group, but that are just coming that it really is such sideways energy. And it detracts from the beauty and the attraction of each other. I mean, it's just. The proof is in the pudding.

Well, Julie, we value you. We've loved this conversation today. We're so thankful for what you do at Authentic Intimacy and in this series on beyond the Porn Phenomenon, which, by the way, if you have enjoyed the stats today, you can find beyond the Porn Phenomenon at the Pure Desire website. We'd love for you to grab a copy for yourself. Digital hard copy. Grab one to show your church leader or pastor and talk about these stats. But we're asking each one of our guests this question of. As we wrap up, what is. What's one piece of advice that you would give to create positive change in this area as we conclude today?

Yeah, I think the one piece of advice I would give, and this is really my heart, is just ask God for help. You know, it seems very simple, but. But like we said, I feel like a lot of people kind of see God in one category and their sexual struggles and questions in another category. And God really is our helper. You know, he's not just sitting up there judging you, saying, you know, get this right. Get your stuff together and then come to me. He's saying, just offer yourself to me. Just ask me for help. Just pursue me. And I've been so blessed to see over the last dozen years of ministry, people that are struggling with pornography, sexual addiction, marriage issues, you know, trauma from the past, when they really start pursuing the Lord and inviting him into these spaces. You know, God just really works. And he gives you hope and he gives you the strength to take the next step. Yep. And so I can't think of any greater encouragement than that.

Yeah. Yeah. Amen. To know that in this journey, God is on your side. He's not on the other side of it waiting for you to get your act together. He is right there with you in the middle of it. And we all need to keep that constantly in front of us. Julie, if people want to know more about you or connect with Authentic Intimacy, what would be the best way for them to do that?

Probably to go to our website, authenticanimacy.com or to listen to the Java with Julie podcast. So there should be two on roads.

Yes. Java with Julie, highly recommended. She's got some great guests and content on there. So, Julie, thanks again for being a part of it, and we really appreciate your time and insights today.

Thank you.

My pleasure. Thank you both for what you're doing.

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