385 - The Church MUST Address This w/ Sean McDowell (Part 4/8)

Foreigner. And welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening Today to episode 385. And today is part four of our series on the Report, beyond the Porn Phenomenon. And joining me throughout the series has been my co. Host, host, Mrs. Ashley Jameson. Ashley, welcome back. Good to see you. Hi.

I just noticed you were looking at the camera and Are these recorded on video, too? This whole time I thought the intros were not video.

Connor, you're, like, way more stressed. You need to have my back.

If I did a new thing that I was.

And I never remember if I'm supposed to look at the camera or not. Like, am I breaking the fourth wall? And that's a big no.

No, I just noticed that you looked at the camera.

It seems like in the intro I'm saying like, hi and welcome.

Hi, I'm Ashley Jamison. Welcome.

Well, today was a great day. We had the privilege to sit down with the author, professor, speaker all around, great guy and apologetic. Apologetics. A guy who's into apologetics, Dr. Sean McDowell. And we had a great conversation with him.

Yeah, I, I am not as familiar with his work, but I was impressed. I was, I was happy to, to see how he brought in some things, some knowledge that he could incorporate into what he learned with the study. And so really excited to share this episode and just the conversation we had today around this topic.

Yeah, he's a deeply biblical thinker, you know, Christian worldview. And I think that's kind of his angle of helping us think through some of these issues through that lens. And so we did, we asked him a lot of questions today about the contradictions. Like people said this and they said this, like, how do people or why do people believe both things. And I really feel like he helped us wrestle through that and I think gives some great insights into the report and some of those contradictions.

I loved his answers and just the practical advice he was able to give to pastors and leaders through this.

Well, you're in for a treat. Here's a bit more about our guest, Sean McDowell. He is a gifted communicator with a passion for equipping the church and in particular young people to make the case for the Christian faith. He's an associate professor of Christian apologetics at the Talbot School of Theology and, and Biola University. Sean is also the co host for the Think Biblically podcast. And in the show notes, you can find how to connect with that podcast and hear more from Sean. It is one of the most popular podcasts on faith and cultural engagement. Sean is listed among the top 100 apologists. So I guess it is apologists, not apologeticists. He graduated summa cum laude from Talbot Theological Seminary with a double master's. And he earned a PhD in apologetics and worldview studies from Southern Baptist Theologies Seminary. He is the author or co Author of over 20 books, including set Adrift, A Rebels Manifesto and Evidence that Demands a Verdict that he co authored with his dad, Josh McDowell. In April of 2000, Sean married his high school sweetheart, Stephanie. They have three adult children and live in San Juan Capistrano, California. And now here is our interview with Sean McDowell on Beyond the Porn Phenomenon Part 4. Well, Sean McDowell, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us today and looking forward to having this conversation with you on some of the information and data that came out in beyond the Porn Phenomenon. Welcome to the show.

Thanks, Nick and Ashley, this is an incredible study. It's a gift to the church. It was eye opening to me. I don't get shocked by a lot of stats, but there's a few we're going to talk about that took me back and I'm still trying to make sense of. So thanks for your team for investing in this and making it happen.

Yeah, well, I love that and I think that is one of our goals with the studies. We, we wanted this to prompt conversations and people to maybe scratch their head a little bit and say, man, how can that be? Or how can we hold some of these diverging viewpoints? And that's actually where I wanted to start with our questions because you were interviewed as part of this project and one of the things you said, two things kind of side by side that I wanted you to unpack for us a little bit. That in the report you say that most Christians don't need to be convinced that looking at porn is wrong in general. But then you go on to say that you do need to convince them of the weight or the gravity of this sin. So why are both of those things true?

Well, I was interviewed for this before I saw the full report and I have since read it all carefully. So that's based on some of the stats that came out of the original porn phenomenon, 2016, which would have been done 2015, basically a decade ago now. And my other recent research on this topic, this study has made me rethink that and wonder how many Christians really understand how deeply unbiblical and unethical pornography is. Now I do think in one sense I stand by the statement that I don't think there's many Christians out there, at least self identifying Christians who are going to make a case that pornography is okay or it's good. They're part of these studies are people do it in the privacy, they're not identified and they're kind of revealing what they believe, but probably aren't really willing to defend. So I think in their heart of hearts, the vast majority of practicing or identifying Christians at least sense that pornography is not good, it's not ideal, it's against God's design. But I think in some of the stats we might get into this, there's some of the ones that just surprise me. About 49% of practicing Christians comfortable with their level of pornography use. And these aren't people, like, I would say I'm comfortable with it because I don't look at pornography. But these are people who look at pornography and are comfortable with it and are practicing Christians. I mean, more than half of practicing Christians agree a person can regularly review porn and live a sexually healthy life. I mean, what is happening there? I think probably, if I had to guess, they know there's something not ideal about it, but have just kind of given up and thought, you know what, I can't stop. I don't have the resources. At least I'm not fill in the blank. So rather than comparing this to God's standard, which I think most Christians know, they're kind of just comparing it to at least I'm not having an affair. At least I'm not looking at maybe a certain kind of pornography. It's really a comparison game. So partly what I do in my talks is I don't want to shame people, but I want to alert them to do you realize how unbiblical this is? Do you realize the damage of this? Do you realize the lies at the root of this is the key point that I'm drawing out in the study. And I think that point still stands.

Yeah, I, you know, I think you're spot on. There's a lot of rationalization and minimization that goes on where we say, well, I'm not doing X, Y or Z. So I mean, yeah, what I'm doing is not great. It's not ideal. It's, you know, if you, if you held me to it, I would say, yes, it's sinful, but it's not that stuff. And I, I know honestly that was part of my story. And I think that rationalization that enabled me to keep in that binge purge cycle and not find help. Because I would say, well, I'm, you know, I'm not looking at violent stuff. I don't like the things that are graphic. Like, I don't get into hardcore stuff. I'm just, I get tripped up by images of beautiful women. And there's some of those lines of reasoning that God made beauty and God designed it. And hey, I, I just can't help myself sometimes. So you so rationalize where you're at. But what I have found is I've worked with so many men in groups, is that wherever we're at, we just do that to the next level of behavior. And so even the guy that's having an affair, I've heard him say, well, at least I wasn't, you know, doing illegal things or it wasn't with minors, I wasn't getting arrested. And we just keep, as we progress in our behaviors, we just keep moving the line further ahead and saying, well, at least it's not. And so I think you're exactly right. We need to kind of come back to some fundamental ideas here and say, wait, wait a minute. This isn't a comparison game. And that's never how God has viewed our world or our behaviors in comparison to others. That we need to come back and see his standards and his call on our lives and the things he created our bodies for and the things he didn't and be willing to evaluate the behavior based on that and not based on what others around us may or may not be doing.

Yeah, I was thinking as you guys were talking, I'm like, because you, do you hear these stats, you're like, okay, based off my experience of working with people and my own sexual history, where could this be coming from? And I thought of two things, you know, when I was living in my struggle, it would be I'd act out sexually with a person once a year, you know, not, not every week. And so if you were to ask me, like if I'm comfortable, I didn't know. Now if I step back and look at the 10 year picture of my history, then I would say, oh, there's a pattern here. I was an addict because when I wasn't doing this, I was actually struggling with food issues or ocd. So there was never a recovered state really. It was just like swapping addictions. But in that moment I would have been like, yeah, I'm comfortable, but I still was in the midst of my struggle. Just at that time, I wasn't struggling and then the other thing I thought about is, like, if you haven't broken denial yet, even though, you know, the struggles there, the sin struggle, the moral struggle, going back to it over and over, if you were to say, I'm not comfortable with it, then you're admitting you have a problem. Like, you go the doctor's office, like, how many glasses of wine a night do you drink? Are you comfortable with your drinking? If you were to say no, then that's the point where you have to do something about it. And so I think some of us lie to ourselves and saying, I'm comfortable with my gaming use, I'm comfortable with my amount of alcohol I use. I'm comfortable, comfortable with them out. Because if we say no, then.

Then that's where we have to admit we need help.

Yeah. And so just think about my own, you know, addictive behaviors, what I would have said in those moments.

I. I think that's well said. And, you know, I have compassion for this. My wife and I were talking last night about how we spend our money, and I'm like, okay, am I comparing myself to others, or are we comparing ourselves to the scripture? These are just honest questions in all areas of lives. I think we have to. To have.

Yeah, I'm not. I'm not doing as bad as those people over there. Yep, exactly. Okay. You were also quoted in many ways, pornography is the elephant in the room. When we don't talk about it, we are doing a profound disservice to people within the church. Why is that?

I was speaking a conference, maybe shortly before COVID and a young man, if I remember, he was maybe 20 years old. 20. Somewhere between 19 and 21 years old. And I. I was speaking on a topic of sexuality. And he grew up, his dad was a pastor. And he said to me, he said, you know, my dad never talked with me about pornography and issues of sexuality. He said, but if he had, I think things would have been different. I said, what do you mean? He said, I. I've made decisions that I regret so deeply that I can't tell people because I think it would just shock them and they'd be so disappointed of a follower of Christ. And I heard that, and I thought, man, these are lies that you are telling yourself. And I think Satan is feeding to you that you're the only one, that there's no grace, that it's more important to have a facade of your faith than to get real healing, which I think people will respect more deeply anyways. But at the root of the Problem is this dad, who is a pastor, never even talked about it. So an elephant in the room is the idea of something that's in the room that's so obvious you can't miss it. It's not like a flea or a cat or even a dog you can maybe ignore. It's like the elephant is there, but we pretend that it's not. And that's the case for pornography. It is the leading influence on young people. How they think about sex, how they think about relationships, how they see the world. And it's ubiquitous now on social media. It's all over Netflix. And I think we've become so accustomed to it and desensitized by it. And that's what I think, again, this report points out, is that there's many instances of things like nudity and sex in the past that people described as pornographic. Now they're less inclined to because they've been affected by it so deeply. There's this elephant of pornography sitting in the room. And whether it's parents, whether it's pastors, whether it's oftentimes Christian schools, we're not talking about it. And some. There's a lot of reasons why we don't. And we could talk about that, but really step number one is just start the conversation. That's a win in itself to say, you know what? There's this elephant that's here. Let's begin to talk about how it affects us.

Yeah, you're so right. Because I think when we don't talk about it and someone is living with this behavior in their life, they don't know who to talk to because no one else is saying anything. There is this weird turn in our thinking that says, well, maybe it is just me. Like, maybe other people don't really have this problem because nobody talks about it. And maybe they're not actually dealing with it like I am. This. This is a me problem. And you have, I think, countless people sitting in a room together that are all wondering, is this just me? Am I the only one that can't figure this out? Because nobody talks about it? And then we kind of stay isolated in our shame, in our sin, when the whole idea, I think, behind the body of Christ is, let's come together in our sin, let's come together in our imperfections, and together find grace before a God that gives it so freely. But we don't. We just come and sit separately. And I think it does allude, you know, one of the stats as you're kind of mentioning the shifting ideals Even of pornography that when we don't talk about it, our culture has redefined what is and isn't pornography. And it came out in the report that, like, a majority of people would no longer describe a naked image intended to create arousal. Like, so we're not just talking artistic nudity. We're saying nudity for the purpose of arousal. People say, oh, that's not pornography. Because now pornography has become video. And pretty much hardcore video is what a lot of culture says, well, that's porn, but just, you know, naked images that are, you know, what. What do you have used to have been Playboy and other adult magazines. Like, well, that's not even porn anymore. And it's like, wait, wait a minute. Like, how did we get there? Well, how we got there was. Because nobody's talking about it. And so that the lines are just shifting without anyone even realizing they've changed.

Yeah, it is. I remember Sean, my boys, they're. They're twins and they're 21 now, but a few years ago, one of them had. It was like a sticker or something in the room. And I'm like, this is so inappropriate. Like, I was just like, this shocked. And they were like, what are you even talking about? I mean, it was just. It really wasn't like their. Their heart and their intent was not even thinking. I'm looking at this very sexually graphic. Like, it was just business as usual. Like, that's how the girls in the school. School dress. And that's, you know, it just. It just seemed so normal to them. But back to your. Your imagery of the elephant. I. I've used this example before, but even if we were to just say 50. If we were in the church and 50 of people showed up drunk, intoxicated, with bruises on their face because of domestic violence, I mean, we would not just go on preaching the sermon and be like, we don't see that 50% of the audience is drunk. And. And the numbers are even higher for pornography. And it's so destructive to our families and marriages. And. And we don't talk about it. It's just the unseen elephant in the room and very, very sad.

Well, I think part of your illustration is people don't show up with the physical effects of pornography like they do, you know, coming to church drunk. And so we kind of think, well, maybe it's not there. Maybe it's not as big of a deal. We're uncomfortable addressing it when this study shows clearly this is a bigger issue. And the data is clear that in the church, people are Wrestling with it. We have no excuse not to address it.

Yeah. Which is why the data is so important, because it does bring the unseen to the surface.

Yeah. Well, we're going to dive into some of the stats in just a bit, Sean, but I did want to ask about one more quote, and it obviously really strikes at the heartbeat of what we're doing, trying to do as a ministry. And you said that any church today of more than three people. So let's define any church more than three people, they need some kind of recovery ministry. So why do you feel that recovery ministry, especially in this area of sexuality, is so crucial for churches to take on?

Honestly, if I was asked that again, I think I would restate my quote and say any church of more than two people needs a recovery ministry. And. And sadly, that's because the studies you've indicated 49% of practicing Christians, that's one out of two, comfortable with looking at sexuality. It was around 50% of practicing Christians who said they had sent some kind of, you know, sexed or sexual image. The number of practicing Christians who are okay looking at pornography and saying, you can live a sexually healthy life. So it's not just one out of three, it's one out of two plus. Now, with that said, I think recovery ministry is one of the most important pinnacles for people to just overcome this kind of habit, and in many cases, what becomes addiction. And I think one of the lies you, again, you talk about in the study is I forget the number of people who believe that if I just try hard enough, I can overcome this sin if I just try harder. It was over half. I think it was like 60% plus 67%, I think. 67%. So two out of three believe that. Well, that's just a complete myth. So we have lies about how much pornography affects us and lies about how we overcome it. And this idea that I can pull up my own bootstraps and just quit by sheer willpower ignores the fundamental role of grace transforming us from the inside out. It undermines the power of the gospel. I mean, when Jesus was tempted, he's quoting scripture back at Satan, and it undermines the importance of other believers in our lives. It says over and over again in Scripture, comfort one another, encourage one another, carry one another's burdens, confess your sins to one another. So recovery groups are people looking in the eyes of other believers together, saying, we're all broken. We all want to follow the Lord. Let's lock arms together and do this. So it makes things invisible in a sense visible and gives people permission and the strength and the power biblically to begin to work through this issue. And recovery groups aren't just on pornography. They can be. Now we're seeing sports, gambling. You mentioned, you know, drinking and alcoholism before, a range of different kinds of addictions. But at its core, there's the same spiritual lies, there's the same relational brokenness that is keeping people from getting healthy. And recovery groups are just one of the most vital things for churches to do to get people there. And again, there's recovery groups online. Go for it, do it. But you've got to look people in the eyes. You got to hold hands and pray with people. You've got to have that physical presence as well to really get the healing. That's why I encourage group churches to have recovery groups. Even if there's just a church of two.

Yeah, yeah, you're probably going to have people that need them. And I. I think recovery has been something often the church has outsourced, if I could put it that way. Like, well, we, you know, there's essay groups out there or go to a therapist office and they run a group. And. And there may be some fear around that. This topic feels. It feels big. I mean, we've got talked in this series already that we've literally had churches say to us, well, we thought about, you know, addressing this topic, but we're afraid if we open that door, too many people would come forward, that there's too many people that need help, and we just don't know how to handle it. And. And so the response has kind of been, well, we'll do nothing because we're. We just don't know how to run this kind of ministry. And I think that's one of the things we want to say is it. It doesn't have to be that complicated that there are groups like Pure Desire and others that. That want to come alongside the church and provide a method, provide curriculum, provide a structure to say, hey, if. If you provide the people and just a little bit of an open door, we've got the rest covered. We can. We can help with the expertise side and make it very doable. And I think sometimes, yeah, we just avoid it because we feel like this isn't our area, it's not our thing. We'll stick to the gospel, go do recovery somewhere else. And yet I think the gospel and recovery really do go hand in hand.

Yeah. And even back to what you were saying, Shawn, of just, at the bare minimum, acknowledge it, you know, I just, I can't imagine being a friend or a sister or a parent and seeing somebody hurting and crying, you know, or suffering, and me just being like, well, I don't know what to say. So I'm just gonna say nothing. I'm gonna pretend it's not there. And that's kind of what's happening in the church, is we're just suffering silently. And now there's no denying it. It is in our churches. And to even just acknowledge it and say that it's a struggle and to say, I mean, Rodney, who's on staff here at Pure Desire, was my pastor. And he did say, like, we don't really know exactly what we're doing, but we're here to talk about it and start it. And even that's just enough of, like, at least it's being acknowledged. And there's this sense of, we'll figure it out together.

Yeah.

Okay. Well, let's dive into some of the stats. So 66% say that they can both view porn and live a sexually healthy life. Many Christians believe it does not impact their faith either. But why would you say that isn't true? And how does porn impact our faith?

That's one of the studies. I mean, I don't know stats. I don't know any other way to put it. That. That just stuns me and it shocks me that somehow we've dropped the ball in the church and not help people deeply understand how much pornography affects them and their relationships. There's a number of instances throughout the study I noted. I wrote in the word effect, when you would talk about ways that pornography affects individuals. I think one of the most helpful examples in the study. You probably have it more accessible. I do. Is how deeply it affects women more than it affects men. That was such a fast. I hadn't seen that really fleshed out in the way that it was. And so that tells me, any man who's looking at it thinking, well, it doesn't affect me, and isn't taken into consideration how it affects women's self image. Their security in a relationship is completely lying to themselves and justifying it, rather than what love is, which is really caring for somebody else. So in some ways, in terms of the effect, I look at it in two ways. It affects our body or our brains, and it affects our soul. So it affects us physically and it affects our thinking. So with our thinking, what. What pornography does is give a certain script or a way we view the world. So people have a script about how to behave in a library, how to behave in an Elevator. How do we have. At a church service? And we adopt these scripts and live according to them, even if we don't think about they become second nature. Well, where are people getting their script about sex? Hands down, it comes from pornography, especially young people. Now, there was a study April 12th in the new York Times. This one also completely blew me away. And the title of this article is called the Troubling Trend in Teenage Sex. New York Times, and I'm just going to read you a section of this. They said nearly two thirds of women in the most recent campus representative survey of 5,000 college students at an anonymized major Midwestern university said a partner had choked them during sex, one third in their most recent encounter. The rate of those women who said they were between the ages of 12 and 17 the first time that happened had shot up to 40% from one in four. Now, where do people get the idea the choking is good and right and okay to do in sex? There is one obvious elephant in the room, and it's porn.

Yeah.

This is shaping the way what people think about their script, what to expect in sex, the purpose of sex, and actually acting it out in a way that's devastating. Devastating. Now, we could talk about other ways it affects the script, but some of the ones you, you point out is when people look at pornography, they, they tend to suggest shorter crimes for people, sentences who have committed things like rape because it makes you tend to think, well, it's justifiable, it's understandable, you know, in some fashion, somebody who looks at pornography habitually, it starts to shape the way they think. It also shapes the brain. And this comes out in the study is looking at pornography creates certain pathways of certain kinds of the way the brain reacts and releases certain chemicals based on looking at false images that are online. And it shapes the brain to react and respond to impossible images. Now when somebody comes to real life, all of a sudden, they can't respond sexually. And this is somewhat of a jarring example. But I remember I must have been 10 years old, my dad was speaking on sexuality. I don't know, maybe some huge conference. And a lady came up and talked to them from a major Christian school. And I won't mention the school, but we've all heard of it. And, and she said something in effect of how she could not. My dad relayed this to me afterwards. He said, you know, that lady is a professor at Christian University. And she described how her husband could not reach a sexual climax with her without having a playboy on the pillow. Next to her, I was 10. And that jarred me at that point. Well, that was probably like three decades ago, before the ubiquity and availability of pornography. But it physically shaped his brain looking at it, and translated into his relationships. I could give example after example after example of how it affects the way we think and affects our relationships. I would argue even affects us spiritually. When somebody looks at pornography and over, over again begins to rationalize it and doesn't experience the freedom from it, you start to question the Christian narrative. Is the Holy Spirit really inside of me? Am I really a new creation? Is God working through my life and sanctifying me? And can even create a questioning of the authority of Scripture. So I appreciate that your study brought this out, but I think someone could do an entire study just on the effects of pornography. That's part two. I would love to see somebody do following up from this, because I think we're at a point where the data is really clear now.

You know, we actually talked about that a little bit, and it highlighted the challenge of when you're stuck in it, you actually have a very difficult time seeing the effects.

Yeah.

So how would you. How would you ask people to survey questions in a way that they would actually connect the dots themselves? I mean, we see it from the outside in, but when you're in the middle of it, you're so stuck in those rationalize and justifying kind of thought patterns that you really believe it has no effect. And so, yeah, we could keep puzzling out. Okay, how do you ask a question that it could reveal, even if a person didn't know it themselves, that their behavior would reveal it? But, you know, this whole area makes me think of the parable that Jesus tells in the Gospels of it, that if you, you know, if someone comes to the altar, but they have a problem with their brother, that they should leave the sacrifice to God and go and be reconciled to their brother first? And I. I think in that story, Jesus is bringing up this tendency to think, well, my relationships with other people are over here and my relationship with God is over here, and the two can be separate. Like, I can just come and worship God and kind of do my spiritual thing, even if in my relationships things are really off and even stuck in a sinful place. And Jesus says, no, they're connected. Like, if you want to bring your gift and sacrifice to God, go be reconciled to your brother first, and then come back to the altar from a place that. That your worship isn't just insincere and disconnected from Your life, but it's out of the way you're living. And I think we've done kind of the same thing with pornography is saying, well, that the way I treat my relationships and my sexuality can be over here and my spirituality can be here. And the two aren't really connected, and yet they are. That I think Jesus is saying to us that we need to worship God out of either a godly sexuality and sexual ethic, or if we're not, we need to deal with that as part of our act of worship or bringing a sacrifice to God.

Yeah, I mean, just my. This was my husband's story that when he finally exposed his history with pornography and prostitutes, he said we had been going to church for years together. But he said, I finally feel like I can raise my hands in church. Like, you know, he finally felt free to worship God even though nothing had changed except for exposing the darkness that he was struggling with. And I've seen that with other people that have come through our ministry as well, feeling like this, I can finally feel free. I finally feel like I can be transparent in a place of worship. And so I know for sure it takes a toll on your spirituality. And as I didn't know I was that Christian that didn't know I was stuck in patterns at all. You know, you thought, oh, I'm just working through things. You don't real. You're stuck. But once you go through the process of digging all that up and truly transforming your mind and your body and your soul, then you see this is. This is what the gospel is about. This is getting to go share and having nothing hold me back in fear.

Yeah. Well, Sean, let's dive a little deeper into some of the data about pastors. The survey shows that one in five pastors, about 18% was the number, say that pornography is a current struggle. And 67% of pastors say that it's been a struggle at some point. And that might surprise people because it seems like man pastors are so spiritually mature. How could they struggle with this? So my question is, why does spiritual maturity or growth in one area not necessarily translate to maturity or health in another area, like our sexuality?

Well, first, I have huge compassion for pastors. The pressure that they're under, the stress that they're under, the mere fact that they're on a stage and called pastor or reverend or priest in some contexts makes people think they must be more spiritual than the rest of us. And so it's hard to go with your struggles and your sins and your shortcomings with people that will understand and work through with you. Now, there is a big difference between a struggle in the past and a struggle in the present. And of course, what we mean by struggle, I mean, on one level, we all struggle with sin, right, because of temptation, and we're human. But that's. There's a big difference between a habitual, ongoing viewing struggle of pornography versus just continually trying to protect your eyes, etc. So some of that needs to be fleshed out. But I think the reason is, what you were hinting at earlier, Nick, is that we are whole beings. We, I mean, Jesus in Luke 252 grew in wisdom and in stature, favor with God and favor with man. And so wisdom he grew intellectually stature, grew physically, favor with God, spiritually favor with man. Relationally. We are whole beings. We are body and soul. What I do with my body affects my soul. What I believe in my mind affects my body. And so it's impossible, I think, to live as whole beings and compartmentalize our lives. In fact, I think one of the lies of Satan, again, is to just say, well, that's just one area of your life. But that doesn't translate over here. Fill in the blank, right? So nobody could look at Scripture and. And say, hey, it's okay to have this struggle here. But, you know, that doesn't affect you over there. Like, you're not going to find that anywhere in Scripture. All sorts of sins we are to bring before the Lord, and that's kind of what keeps us humble. So, you know, if I were Satan, this is almost exactly what I would try to convince people of, to compartmentalize their lives. And so I think it's just a faulty view of spiritual growth, faulty view of what it means to be human, and just a faulty view of how profoundly sin can affect us and how we've got to humbly come before the Lord.

Yeah, we do struggle, I think, putting pastors on a pedestal. You know, we want to believe that there is someone that just has nailed life with God and faith and that they're living, you know, And I think we know a pastor is not perfect, but we want to believe they're pretty close. And because of that, we forget that at the end of the day, a pastor, a man or a woman who's called into ministry is still just a man or a woman. And yes, we call them to a standard of life and behavior as a pastor, but within that, we do need to remember they also have areas they need to grow. And just because you got the mantle of pastor, or got your Masters of Divinity from a great university and you took all these wonderful classes. That's not a magic button that you push. And just, oh, now I'm mature in all areas. There needs to be a place. And I hope the report and this conversation can be a part of that, of letting pastors still be human beings. And that. That doesn't disqualify them from leading because they've got areas where they're still growing. And in fact, when we see a pastor disqualified, it's usually because a behavior has gone unaddressed in their life so long that it's now created some unavoidable or unrepairable breaches of trust or in a community, and they have to be removed. And I just see, you know, every story that comes out of another fallen pastor, I can't help but think, man, what if. What if they would have had the safety to be in a group 10 years ago? What if their elders had said, hey, we love you as our pastor, but we also know you're a man who has a story. How can we help you continue to grow in your story? And right now, I would say the vast majority of pastors, whether man or woman, they just don't have that freedom. They don't have that openness from their congregation to be a real human being. And so they have to either go find help, like, secretly or privately, or just deal with it themselves, which doesn't usually lead to a lasting way of transformation.

Yeah, and it's counterintuitive when we're teachers. I mean, I'm not a pastor, but I am a teacher in this area of sexuality. And, you know, like I said, I'm raising imperfect children. And, you know, out of the four of them, there are times where it even I feel a little sense of that. I'm not shepherding people, you know, spiritually and leading them into heaven, but I am shepherding people in this realm of sexual discipleship. So when it happens with my family or John has a struggle, or the kids, there's this temptation to go. Everybody's going to think I'm a fraud. Why would they want to learn from me? But we have to show that even as teachers and leaders and influencers, we are also still real people. And we're here to show you what it looks like to be a believer and navigate life's struggles beginning to end all the way through. Through all the struggles and through all the temptations. Not to say, here's the. Here's the map for you to arrive and everything is perfect after that.

And.

And I've had to wrestle with that too. And I'm like, I do this for a living. I teach to be transparent, and yet here I am. Like, do I share that? My kids had a struggle? What if they just threw out everything I've ever taught them before because of this? You know, so it's, it's a hard place to be, but we just have to keep going against the grain.

I think you're right that pastors are going to struggle with different things. I don't think it's a pastor's call if they are struggling with pornography, to just say, you know what? Everybody struggles with something. I'm going to keep going. This is where the board and their accountability structure is going to have to look at it. What do you mean by struggle? How far have we come? They're the ones who, with integrity, are going to make that call. If you can continue to serve, step down for a season, etc. That's the only thing I would just, I would throw in there.

Yeah. I just think there are a lot of times when we could have approached a pastor from a more helpful discipleship standpoint rather than waiting for it to become a discipline or disqualification kind of conversation. And I just wish every church, when they hired, you know, hire a young pastor, just say, hey, you're a young man, you're a young woman. Like, we know you need to grow in stature and in faith. And really, how can we be a part of helping you and supporting you? Because we want you to be a pastor for the long haul. We don't want you to ignore your issues for the next 10 years and then blow out sideways and we have to go through this horrible ordeal like, let's be a part of their growth and healing and not wait to be a part of their. Their disqualification.

Yeah. Because you do see so many people have their faith rocked when somebody they've been following for decades or learning under fails and what could have been prevented even in that aspect, had we helped them along the way when maybe they did step down for a while as they got healing. And yeah, it's sad. Okay, Sean, you were also quoted saying, we listen to lies. It's normal, everyone's doing it, it's not a big deal. And yet most strugglers say, stay alone in their shame and don't tell anyone at all. So how do you reconcile these two opposing ideas?

Well, I think my point is that, not that we all should listen to lies, but we're all tempted to do so, and that one of the lies is that everybody's doing it. Another lie is that you're alone. And my suspicion is that either one of two things happen. Either individuals believe one lie at a time while everybody's doing it and justify it, Other times they feel alone, or there's individuals who tend to favor one versus the other. But the bottom line is, it was my English teacher my freshman year at Biola who said that. Just how did she phrase it? She said, the justification of sin is just as bad as the original sin. I remember thinking at that point, like, wow, I'm really good at justifying sin in my own life. I mean, we are masters of this, and that's what these lies represent. It's convenient, it's easier. It's just the natural route of us to follow these different lies. So I actually think we can live with tension in our minds when we're trying to justify sin. Whichever one is most convenient at the moment. Yeah, we gravitate towards. So I think if we're looking at these two different lies going, how do they fit together? I go, it's pretty easy because people are caught up in lies. We all have a tendency to justify them. We're looking for a way out of confessing and dealing with it. So we just go with whatever lie is most convenient in the moment. I think that's just human nature.

It occurs to me that both methods are a form of self protection.

Yeah.

That in the moment, if I have struggled, if I've fallen into pornography again, and I say, well, you know, everybody does it. It's pretty normal, it's pretty common. I'm kind of protecting myself from having to feel the weight, like we talked earlier, the weight and gravity of my sin, because I can kind of push that back and protect myself from feeling truly sorry or remorseful about that behavior. But then if I think about telling someone else, you'd be like, well, I better just fix it on my own. And people don't really talk about this. It's not safe to bring. And again, I'm protecting myself from having to feel something or face something, or walk through the hard work of repair and recovery by just listening to. Even though they're kind of competing with one another, I'm listening to competing lies both as a way to protect myself.

Yeah. And I want to go back to what your freshman teacher said, which was so good because I want to highlight that on the betrayed spouse's side. That's so also true that, yes, sometimes the original sin is very, very Bad. But more often than not, in the women that I serve and in my own experiences, even recently, you know, talking with my own spouse is saying, hey, when you did this, like, that made me feel uncomfortable. Maybe we shouldn't have Facebook. It's getting a little sexual on there. You know, there's the. The temptations that bothers women usually so much less than when you go to approach it. And there's the justification, there's the lying, there's the deception, there's the minimizing, because then there's this fear of they're not seeing it, they're not owning their behaviors. How long are we going to be stuck in this? I can't really bring it up to them if they're not recognizing the sin, the pain, the damage that they're causing. And it leaves you with a sense of hopelessness, because if the person is not recognizing it as something that's harmful, then. Then you're like, well, what now? How do I convince them? And so, as the betrayed spouse, just owning it and not justifying it, not minimizing it, is such a big relief to your spouse if that's a struggle that you're facing.

Yeah, Sean, I guess what we have for you is just all these contradictions that we want you to solve for us, because this next one is also a contradiction. When pastors were asked, asked if it's important to teach on this topic, this topic of pornography, 81% said it's important or very important. And yet, at the same time, 81% of pastors also said their church doesn't teach on this enough. So they say it's important, but also acknowledge they don't teach on it enough. And just 9% of pastors said that their church has a plan specifically to help people in this area of pornography. So what. What might be going on here? How, as leaders, can we both be saying it's important, but also acknowledging we really don't talk about it enough?

So I am not a demographer, I'm not a professional statistician, but I have learned that the way we ask questions is going to shape the response. So, for example, if you ask young people, how important is spirituality to you? The vast majority are going to say somewhat or very important. But if you ask Gen Zers, tell me the top five things that are most important to you, religion and faith will not regularly come up.

Yeah.

So if you ask pastors, how important is pornography, of course. Or not, how important is pornography? Edit that one out. How important is it to talk about pornography?

We know where you're coming from.

Of course the majority of them are going to say it's important. But if you do a separate study and ask pastors, say, write down the top five or top 10 most important topics to discuss, I bet you pornography is not near the top. Now, sexuality might be, just because it's so ever present in our culture and discussed. But again, the elephant in the room, even behind sexuality, all the issues we approach on sexuality lurking behind that is pornography. I don't think you would find that on the list of what pastors cite. So I think part of our job, and partly what you're trying to do in this study, is just to wake people up to how significant and deeply affecting this is. And that stat that 81% say, you know, it's important to teach, but 81 say they don't teach enough, tells me that most pastors don't really believe it's that important to discuss. If it was, they would do it. They would do it. And again, I have nothing but compassion for pastors. There's people that tell them, you've got to talk about politics, you've got to talk about sex trafficking, you've got to talk about abuse and marriages. Like, I get it, there's a ton of topics and pastors are expected to be experts on everything. But if the stats that are being point out in this research are true, this has to be up there near the top of issues that are talked about. In fact, that's one of the positive things. When I read this report, I read a lot of Barna reports and I go through, I make a little positive sign because sometimes I get so caught up in just the concerning stats, it can be depressing. I make positive signs and concerning was, I think 10% if I remember, if 9 or 10% of people actually talk about this in churches. But it was a significant majority of people said, we want help from our churches, we need help from our churches. So there's a huge opportunities if we can convince all the church in particular pastors and equip them that they just need to talk about this and don't have to be the experts. That's what holds people back. My lane really is apologetics. And a lot of people don't talk about it. They're like, what if I get asked about not only contradictions in a barnet study apparently, but contradictions in the Bible, how do I address that? And it's the fear that holds us back that pastors, we just expect them to know everything and be perfect and do Everything. I just want to give them permission to say, you don't have to be the expert. Just talk about this, share stories, create a support group. And that's like 90% of the way there.

Yeah. I think that word you used is so crucial, and that's equipping that I think most leaders. I mean, I know it's my story, and I don't know what your experience is like with Talbot Seminary there in Biola. I think pastors would say, I didn't get any classes on human sexuality. I didn't have any training in, like, helping people overcome pornography. I remember in our pastoral counseling class, there was like, a little snippet on addiction, but the gist of it was like, hey, if you find out someone's addicted to anything, like, send them out to a professional counselor. And I think that mindset of man, this is just. This is too far beyond us. We should leave this to quote, unquote, professionals. While there are elements of truth to that, what you just said is so spot on, that there is so much a pastor can do with what they do have. And if they had a little bit of equipping or a little bit of knowledge from a group like Pure Desire, or even from reading this study, and they just started to share some of the information and said, we want to have this conversation, you know, just open the door and walk in the room and say, hey, this is okay for us to address, because this is part of being human. Like, the difference that could make in people's lives without needing to be the expert, without needing to have a degree in human sexuality would really be a game changer. And so I hope that what we do and having conversations like this creates a little bit of confidence for a pastor to say, you know what? I don't have to wait until I have this perfectly figured out to at least point people to the truth of scripture, to God's creation, how he's made us male and female and help people find their sexuality in the biblical story. Like, I. I can do that. I can do that. If we had more pastors saying, I can do that, I can open that door and start that conversation, I think we'd go a long ways toward helping people in this area.

Yeah. So my. My story is being the. The betrayed spouse in the church that needed a group, and there I couldn't figure out where to go. It was before I knew Peer Desire had groups available. I mean, it was. It was 11 years ago. And so I just went to my pastor and said, hey, I need this group. For betrayed spouses. My husband is in a pure desire group. How do we start this? And, and he graciously just said, well, you know, why don't you go ahead and start something? And so I did and I did it really badly, but it still worked out fine. So no fear there for anybody, I promise. I probably did it worse. But what I found out along the way, in those three years of starting groups, in a three year span, I helped start 25 different women's groups for betrayed spouses, women who struggle, and teenagers. And it just was exactly what the stats are revealing. They just wanted the church to start talking about it and we weren't doing things perfectly. We made mistakes along the way, but that cost benefit, you know, weighing the risk was worth it. And the, the couple of mistakes we made along the way, there were dozens more people for each mistake, being helped and being set free. And then I know, personally transforming their marriages, saving their marriages, canceling the divorce papers that were in, in process and, and then telling me later, okay, now my kids are getting healthy and I realize my kids are struggling. And so it was worth it. I mean, either way, I think if we decide not to talk about it, we know for sure there's this massive amount of people struggling and if we do talk about it, we may make some mistakes, but you know, it's, it's still worth it. So with that and even just what you've shared about, you know, pastors having a great opportunity, is there any other piece of advice? You know, pastors, you've said, we've said they don't have to be the specialists or the experts, but just what advice could you give pastors to just show that they can be the, the place to help people in their church move forward and find healing.

So I would say two things. I think one thing that's really powerful people is for people is just stories. So Jesus asked questions. In fact, there's 340 questions he asked in the Gospels, in Acts, in the letters of Paul, there's 262. And Jesus told stories. Why we relate to stories we remember, stories we enjoy stories. I think in part that's why the Bible talks about defeating, you know, Satan's lies with the power of our testimony. A story, not just facts. And so this report is full of the facts and data that we need to understand what's going on. And facts wake people up, but it's stories that people relate to. So I would really encourage pastors to just tell stories or find people in their church who are Willing to appropriately share stories in the right way, like the two of you have bravely done here and beyond. I mean, Ashley, I can't imagine what you went through sharing your story. I have so many questions for you and I see why in this new report, there's a whole section that's new that wasn't in the 2016 porn phenomenon about the trauma that spouses and others experience when somebody's looking at pornography and how we address that. That's another elephant in the room that's left out. But it's telling stories, sharing stories that empowers people and motivates them to say, you know, what if Joe and my church looked at pornography and he got healing, so can I. That's more powerful than saying 27 of people who experience this God healing. It's like, well, that's just a stat in the abstract world, but it's Joe in my church, it's, you know, Brenda in my church. So I want to encourage pastors. Stories, stories, stories. And the last thing I would say is I did a deep dive on this and I was sharing with you before we went on. I both have a podcast and YouTube channel where my co host and I go into this study and talk about it. And my final suggestion, I'm saying it here because I said it there, not because you invited me on, but I really think this study is a gift for the church. It's eye opening, it's relevant, it's sobering. But there's also some encouraging things in it. So small group leaders, pastors, take your staff through it and just talk about it and pray about it and ask God for wisdom. How in your particular setting to address this. Because I promise you, it's in every church on some level, it's affecting every family. It's there and we're only fooling ourselves if we're not willing to look at the data. And you guys have laid it out here in an easy to study report that I just hope more people will really, really take seriously.

You know, one of the things I've heard from a lot of people that have gone through group, like they come to a group online with us because there's nothing in their church and, or maybe they've even found something in their church and they'll say, we just, we never, you know, back to where we started this conversation, we never, never hear our pastor talk about this. And I think there's some truth there that what gets said from the stage matters in the church. And if it's not said from the Stage people feel like it doesn't matter in the church. And I'm not saying that a pastor needs to preach an eight part series on pornography or bring it into, bring it into every single sermon. But if people never hear it, that's also a problem. And it could be something as simple as a few times a quarter, you say something like, if you're here and you're struggling with your sexuality, or you're battling lust and temptation, you're stumbling into pornography. We want you to know you're safe here, you're loved here, and there is a place for you to tell that story with others that can help you. I mean, in 30 seconds, a pastor has just validated that this is a struggle. They've affirmed that we care and they've offered some hope that we have a group or some kind of plan for you and that it just suddenly legitimized, like, oh, what I deal with, this church deals with. And if that was happening, you know, every few months, it just creates this environment that says, my church cares, my church helps people in this area. And the other thing I've encouraged pastors, we do have a little. We can be guilty of saying, well, I said that once, like four years ago. People should know that, right? Like we, like I dealt with that. No, they need to hear it and keep hearing it. You know, when we ran groups at my church, we did it for years. And there were people that came in the third, fourth year that they had been there the whole time, like they had heard me tell my story publicly, own my addiction, talk about the freedom start groups. And it took them three years of watching men and women do group and tell their story from our stage to get the boldness to say, you know what? I think they actually mean it. I think they can actually help me too. And I just looked at this, said, man, what if, like, what if we would have done all that when I did my public, you know, stuff with our church and then just moved on? They would never have come around because they would have been so locked in their story and their shame that they'd have said, yeah, maybe for a few people, but my story's different, my issues are a little different. I don't know that they really want to help me. And it just took that consistency and that faithfulness for some of them to go, you know what? I think they really mean it. So just that encouragement to leaders, to pastors, it doesn't have to be all the time, but just in a consistent kind of manner, keep bringing it up, keep Saying, we care. This is a safe place. We're here to help. And that can make a huge difference.

Yeah. And I liked how you said, you don't have to go into all the details. It could be 30 seconds. And I'm so glad you brought that piece up. I'm so glad. Just the power of story and questions. Ask questions, questions tell stories. And same for the betrayed spouse. They need to see a face. They need to see another woman and just be like, hey, we have this group for spouses that have been betrayed. And if you've experienced the pain of living with somebody or being married to somebody who struggles sexually, I have a group for you. And I just add in. And it's personally helped me. I don't even go into my story half the time in that setting on stage. It's just. And it's helped me. And that's enough to say, okay, she might be safe. I think I can go to that meeting she's putting on.

Yeah. Well, Sean, we're really grateful for you. And as we wrap up, we've been asking all of our guests a question to just say what. What's a piece of advice that you would like to leave our listeners with? So as. As you think about this topic, what do you think is one piece of advice that you would give to help create change in this area?

I research this a lot, and to be honest with you, it's somewhat depressed, depressing at times. I mean, I did a full episode on how artificial intelligence. I think we've just seen the tip of this, and we're going to look back in 10 years and be like, holy cow, we didn't know anything about how sexualized our culture could become. Yeah, but I also know that Jesus has risen from the grave. I also know that we are a new creation and that a biblical view of sexuality actually sets people free. So I just want to encourage people, amidst all the lies that are out there, that every one of us watching this are tempted to greater and lesser degrees to believe one or two or more of them. Go back to the scriptures, the authority of the scriptures. What Jesus says was and is right, and he's transforming lives today. The more broken our culture becomes, hopefully will be a hospitable place in the church that doesn't says, I say, I told you, you're wrong. How could you do this? But just has a pastoral voice. And the two of you have really spoken that I'm a. I'm a professor, so sometimes I live in the world of ideas. And the two of you have spoken, I think, with such kindness about this and a pastoral heart for people. Let's remember, don't believe the lies, but let's love people. Jesus got it right.

Yeah, yeah. So good. I love that. The church as a hospitable place.

Yeah.

To think about being hospitable to people stuck in sexual brokenness and shame, that's beautiful. Sean, you've mentioned your podcast. Some of the things you do. How could listeners catch up with with you, follow you? Like, where would you direct them to connect with Sean McDowell?

Probably the Hub to everything I do is just my website, shawnmcdow.org links to Twitter, Instagram, my blog, speaking books. But as far as listening, I have a podcast out of Biola called Think Biblically. And we have a weekly interview about 30 minutes and we do an hour long cultural update every Friday where we take stories in the news including when sexuality issues come up and others. And then I have a YouTube channel where I do issues like this and a lot of cultural issues and apologetics. Just search my name, that'll. That'll pop up.

Yeah, that's awesome. So find Sean McDowell online. Listen to his podcast Think Biblically. We're big fans. Thank you again for being in beyond the Porn Phenomenon. And if our listeners want to get a copy of the report, you can find that@puredesire.org and it's also@barna.com Sean, thanks for being with us today. We're just so thankful for you, for your time and for your message of hope around this area of biblical sexuality. Thanks for joining us.

Thank you for your ministry and listener.

If you're a fan of this show of today's content, we would love it so much if you would subscribe, share this with somebody or write us a review. All of these are ways that other people might hear this message of hope, freedom and healing. And if you would like more information on pure desires, group groups, resources or counseling, you can Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.