386 - How The Porn Industry Secretly Preys on Women w/ Crystal Renaud Day (Part 5/8)

Foreign hello to you, our listener on your radio, your Internet, your phone, your computer, however you might be listening. Thank you for tuning in to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. I am your host, Nicholas J. Stumbo, and today is episode 386. And here joining me through throughout this series on the report beyond the porn phenomenon is my co host, Ashley Jamison. Ashley, welcome back. Good to see you.

Just so happy. I feel like I should say I'm Ashley D.M. jamison.

You got two middle names.

I do.

I don't think I know Marley.

Was there any particular reason you got two middle names or.

My mom is a special.

You're just extra special.

That I am special. But my mom is very paranoid and she thought having two middle names would be more secure so that I don't have identity theft.

Right. And there'd be less likelihood that you might have another person with the exact same name.

Right. So all of us girls, and then I carried on the tradition. All my kids have two middle names.

Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the wonders of the modern world. I've looked on like Facebook. Are there other Nicholas Stumbos? And there are a couple more, but as far as I know, none of us share the middle name. So so far so good.

Your parents did well.

Yeah, well, it's a pretty common middle name. But hey, today we had a great conversation. Someone that we really value and the way that she speaks very uniquely into women's sexuality and that is a friend of our ministry and of the show, Crystal Renaud. Day. Ashley, tell our listeners a little bit about today's conversation.

I love Crystal and I don't know if people are watching. They can see me get teary eyed sometimes when I talk to Crystal because I do love her heart for women and I love her candor in how she just constantly weaves in her own experiences and stories. And she's just a wealth of knowledge. Just the counselors that she's built up and the summits that she puts on and just her niche of working with women. I am so excited to highlight that in the Barna report and just in our discussion today of women struggle.

Yeah, yeah. And that was one of our goals with the Barna Report, was to say this isn't a man's problem, this is a people problem. And women struggle, too. And some of the data shows that. It shows the significance of how it can harm women's mental health, their sense of well being and just like it can for a man. And so I think today's conversation underscores that so well. So if you're a woman who has struggled, I think you'll be encouraged. I think you'll find yourself in the story. If you are a woman who hasn't struggled, I think it, I hope, would give you a lot of compassion and understanding that women around you struggle, too. And that, you know, that doesn't make them the enemy. It makes them someone that has a story of brokenness and pain. And we talk about that. And if you're a man, I think you're actually going to find a lot of commonalities too, of like, oh, that's my story and or the exposure is a big part of what led into my issues. And it just we keep using the term like levels the playing field, helps us see, you know what, we all need some help here and we can all be a part of that for one another. So, yeah, Crystal's a lot of fun. A little bit more About Crystal Renaud Day she is the CEO and founder of Living on Purpose, as well as the founder and executive director of she Recovery. With over 15 years of ministry coaching and counseling experience, Crystal is regarded as a pioneer and expert in the field of female pornography and sexual addiction. Most recently, she has expanded her work to provide consulting services to churches, counselors and others to provide recovery for women in their communities. She is the author of several books, including 90 Days to Wholeness and Dating Done Right. She holds a Master of Arts in Pastoral Counseling from Liberty University, and her work has been featured in the New York Times, ABC News, CNN, the 700 Club, and more. And Crystal resides in the Kansas City area with her husband, Tim. And and now here is our conversation with Crystal Renaud Day, Part 5 in the series beyond the Porn Phenomenon. Well, Crystal Renaud Day, welcome to the program and thank you for being a part of this special series on the Barna Report, beyond the Porn Phenomenon. And thank you for being a voice and a guest really addressing areas of women's sexuality and that women struggle, too. And we're really excited to get your perspective today. So welcome.

Thanks, Nick and hi, Ashley. Thanks for thanks for having me. I'm really honored to be with you for this.

Yes. And we were just so excited to have you included in the report. And you know, we believe in the ministry that you have and the ways that you're helping people and women in particular. I wanted to start by asking you a little bit about early exposure, because that's a great quote that you have in the book is about how, in fact, I'll just say it. Your, your quote was, in early exposure, meaning kids who are exposed to pornography or sexual things at a young age, any faith or lack of faith plays very little role in deterring the behavior. So why is that? Why is early exposure so powerful and damaging even if a child is growing up with faith or in a faith filled home?

Yeah, it was a good question to be asked anyway from Barna. And I think to look at it from the perspective of being young and being inexperienced with regard to sexuality anyway, your sexual palette is being created through pornography. And so just from that early exposure, your first real conversation very well could be the one you're having with the screen. And that does develop your sexual palette going forward in terms of what you find to be normal, what you find to be arousing, what you find to be intriguing. And so it really does, because it's early exposure is at a time when you are underdeveloped mentally, your brain's not fully developed. All of those things combined are really creating that palette and creating kind of the, the setting the tone for what your future sexual relationships might look like with or without pornography.

Yeah. And that is so important for parents to hear because I think especially Christian parents can get caught in some of that ideology of like, oh, they're good kids and we've got a good home. And you know, we would never have things like that in our home. And so if, if they see it, they'll, they'll know what to do and they'll just turn away or they won't be interested. And yet what we're really lacking, that's kind of a naive approach because it's missing how God really made our brains to work. And our brains were designed to be intrigued by the naked human body, to be attracted to sexual things. Now obviously in God's good design, that would be as we're preparing for marriage and within marriage and within things that God has called us to. But those same systems function in the brain. And whether you're a good Christian kid from a good home or an opposite kind of experience, the brain's going to react the same way. And so equipping parents to think through that, I can't just rely on, well, I take my kids to church every Sunday to be a deterrent for them being exposed to pornography or sexual things and having that, having them be hooked into that because their, their brain is kind of fertile soil for that to happen.

Yeah. And if I could just add to that Real briefly, you know, my own experience with being exposed to pornography at the age of 10 years old. So I hadn't had the sex talk with my mom at that point that I can remember at least nothing of much detail. And so for me, my sexual education was pornography. And it was very explicit, graphic pornography. It wasn't just know, naked people. These was pictures of intercourse and it was very graphic. And so it did create again, the sexual palette. My idea of sex was created around pornography as opposed to being shared by my Christian mother. What sex is supposed to look like in the right context, if you don't, if you don't, if you see this in a different. In a way that's outside that context, it's. It's wrong. Come tell me. I never had that conversation. And part of that is I'm almost 40 years old. So pornography wasn't supposed to be as easily accessible when I was exposed to it. But at the same time, the importance of those early conversations cannot be understated.

Yeah, I, I was thinking about this too, even just in conversations with my, My husband that I have a couple of kids, couple of my 4 kids are more curious than the others, you know, more sexually curious. And, and so my daughter doesn't struggle in the same way where she is the one that comes to say, well, what does this mean? What does this mean? And then I have a couple kids where it's, you know, I may have an idea. I'm. I'm giving them information and I have to keep pursuing conversation. And I was telling my husband, you know, there's just a natural curiosity for kids too. And Nick and I have talked about this just as parents to try to help squelch that curiosity, curiosity so they don't have to go looking. But there's, there's still something in kids that wants to impress other friends, wants to show them, like, the grossest, the weirdest. Like there's this thing in kids that. That's natural. I remember opening up encyclopedias and being like, look at this picture. I mean, there's just. Sometimes it's not even sexual curiosity as it is much about, like, the shock factor of being a kid and trying to be the cool kid and show them things and, and so just remembering that, that, that's not a reflection of how much faith I'm instilling in my children. Like, kids are curious and we have to be on top of it and just open to continuing this conversation and realizing that it may be multiple conversations. It may not be just one thing we teach them or Bringing them to Sunday school, and then they don't ever struggle again. That's not reality.

Yeah, I think, too, I would just say, you know, our focus in this episode is really to talk about women's sexuality and that women struggle, too. And whether it's women or men, I think that early exposure, one of the things that needs to be said is so many of us carried into adulthood shame and blame around that exposure. Like, yeah, I shouldn't have seen that, and that was wrong for me to do that or what I did with another kid, that was inappropriate, like, and part of. We need to. And I'm not trying to say blame shift or anything, but also remember, like, you were a child, and as a child, you were naturally curious, and you might not have done that because you were this evil sinner. You might have done that because you were a kid and you should have been protected from that. That shouldn't have even been available to you. And I think sometimes when people get that encouragement, they realize that early exposure, I actually need to grieve, not repent of. I wasn't doing it because I had a bad little heart. I was just looking and being a friend and stuff happened, and I should grieve what was lost in that moment. And so just keeping in mind, like, what message do we attach to that? Early exposure really might be a big part of what has led to struggles later in life.

It's a really good point to highlight.

That's a really good point. Yeah, absolutely. I totally. I can't even add to that. That's.

Yes, yes. All of us grieve the little child that was exposed too early. Okay. Do you think that young girls are any less likely than young boys to experience early exposure to pornography?

I don't think so. I think, especially in this day and age with technology and carrying around a computer in your pocket, you know, I think porn exposure is equal opportunity. I don't think it really matters if you're a boy or a girl. In my case, mine was a magazine in my brother's bathroom. If I had a sister, would that have happened? I don't know. You know what I mean? Back then. But certainly I had other. Like, Nick was talking about other people in my life also began to show me things as I got older that were actually girlfriends and, you know, friends of mine in school, like, ooh, listen to the. Call this number. It's really funny. But they didn't know that I had had a pornography addiction by this point. And so now they're exposing me to a sex Phone line. And now I get to do that. So there was things that were additionally exposed later on. And so I think that, you know, the question of itself is, are girls any less? I don't think so. I think, in fact, there's research to support that. Girls are curious about sex and especially what boys like and what they are interested in. And so girls will seek out pornography as a way to learn.

When I was thinking about this question too, and I think the data. You might know more, Crystal, that one is it one in five girls that have been sexually abused by age 18.

One in four, I believe.

One in four, yeah. So you think about that early exposure isn't always just curiosity or friends at, you know, a friend's house. 25% of girls might say it was something that was done to me. And often there is grooming, there is pornography involved in that. There is seeing and having things done to you that never should have happened. That very much. You know, all the research points to that trauma. And that kind of abuse often creates the desire for more. And that's again, not because you have a bad brain or you're a sinner, but it's because that's a trauma response that there is some bonding, even in a very negative thing that says, I actually want to see that again or do that again. And so again, people can carry all kinds of shame. And boys have been abused, too, not to the same percentage as girls. But if that's part of your story, like, you might have began engaging in things because your brain was traumatized, and to just see that of like, oh, that may actually be happening more to young girls than to young boys and could be the pathway then into their ways of acting out sexually.

I know the numbers are the numbers, but also the women that come through our groups have stories and the percentages are so high. And I would say even for the men that come through our groups of sexual experiences with other men or boys at a young age, too early.

Every number is a human. Every number is a soul that needs to be cared for.

So, you know, we touched on this a little bit, Crystal, but just to have you maybe talk a little bit more about it before we go on from early exposure. And I think this is just an important topic because, you know, everybody's story starts somewhere. And what I have found, like, in doing groups with now hundreds of men, I've never had a man say that they. Their first encounter with something sexual was something that they were prepared for and came in a healthy way. Like every single story, it starts early exposure, didn't want to see it. Unhealthy kind of thing. And you refer to that as you were interviewed. You said that early exposure is unwanted. And we might also even call forms of early exposure a form of abuse. So talk about that a little bit. Like, in what ways is early exposure unwanted or even a form of abuse?

In. In my own story, it was unwanted. You know, I. I went. I came home from school, went down to the bathroom downstairs, just like I did every day of my life, and there was this magazine on the counter. So it was not something that I sought out. It wasn't something that I was like, I'm curious about sex, and I'm going to look this up or go to the encyclopedias and look at weird pictures. This was literally something that was made available to me accidentally, but still made available to me. And so for me, that. Because it was so explicit, I've actually had therapists compare it to being raped, which was a. Which is a very hard thing for me to even rationalize because I think about that being as so much worse because it is in many ways, but emotionally, it had the same impact on me because of how young I was and how graphic the material was. And so, yes, the pornography was abusive and abusive to me. Abusive to me in my mind, my body, religious, spiritually, in my. In my faith. And so I would. I would say, talking about early exposure, you know, I. From our own survey we did last year, I want to say it was 80% of those who took the survey were exposed to porn before the age of 18. And so we're talking about before your brains develop, before you can make good judgment decisions, you're being exposed to pornography. And that is going to. In many ways, it is abusive. It is. It's so jarring to your brain and to your body that sometimes the effects of that are irreversible without the intervention of therapy, without Christ, you know, all of these things that can come together and help you to heal. But if we think about pornography in itself, it's also. What it is is also abuse, right? So there's. It's not victimless just for the person who's watching it, but for the person who's on the screen. So, yeah, it's abuse all over.

I think of the number of stories I've heard where people were invited by an adult who should have known better or should have been a caregiver in this area of like, hey, anytime you want to look at those magazines, go for it, or watch this with me, or leaving A stash out in places where children could easily find them. That's a form of parental neglect. And I'm not saying they should be, like, arrested and accused of child abuse, but if it's your role to provide and care for children, and yet you've left explicit content where they found it, or even worse, introduce them to it, that is, in a sense, abuse of what a child should have received from people they could trust and follow. And for so many people, that's just part of their story. It's like, boy, people who should have trained me for health actually introduced me to unhealthy things. And to see that that wasn't a you problem, that was a them problem, that wasn't because you were curious and shame on you. That's because they should never have been making that available to you. They should have been wise enough to have that. I mean, if they were having their own struggle, okay, at least keep it locked up and away from someone that a young age could find it. And when we see it through that lens, you know, because I think we just see that pain tends to beget pain. Shame tends to beget more pain. And if that's where we started and we look at, man, I've got this long history of kind of a painful sexual journey, it's like, well, yeah, maybe because that's where it started. And if we want to write a healthy story, some of it is going back and rewriting or relearning some of those messages we got at such a young age.

Well, in one definition of abuse I've heard is, it's abuse. Is anything used in the wrong way or in a way that's harmful. And so, like, by that definition, then pornography itself is abusive because it's not the way. I mean, if you have a Christian view of sexuality, it's the wrong way and it's harming people. And it. It is. It's. It's so, like you said, jarring and. And violent in your. In your thoughts and intrusive. And a lot of us have images or experiences that we can't get out at all. And then to go back to what Nick said, just about grieving, that first experience, I remember going through weeks of, you know, when I was going through my pure desire work of just, like, grieving the childhood that there wasn't those normal protections. And we know as parents, we can't protect our kids from everything. There are accidents that happened and. And my kids have experienced things right under my nose. But that. But that we do our best to Try to keep our kids from being exposed to things that we know are harmful. So hopefully even this study will just raise awareness in that way.

And in my case, just in case my mom's listening, this is, you know, this was my brother's magazine in his bathroom. So it wasn't something my parents had. Had laid out or had available to me. In fact, my parents did. But a lot of Christian parents, do they think they did enough?

Yeah.

With regard to filtering and telling you what you know, not to watch this. These movies in this cabinet or whatever it might have been. And my brother, who was five years older than me, had it. Had brought it into the home. And so they had no idea that this was. Had been brought into the home. How did he get it? At 15, he wasn't old enough to purchase it. So it's like, how did he have it? So again, he was too young to have it. He was also a victim of abuse from having that early exposure. And that's something for me to think about too. I used to blame him, like, why do you have this, the house? Like, how. How did it make, you know, why you make it available to me to where I could have been exposed and it wrecked my life and blah, blah, blah. But then think about it in terms of. He was 15. He also shouldn't have had it. He also was a victim. And I don't know how long he struggled, but I'm certain it was up for a while too. Hopefully he's not now, but. But it's just thinking about in those terms as well. But my brother was also a victim of those circumstances and he shouldn't have had it to begin with.

And holding the tension. Crystal, I know your. Your arena is women and. And that's mine too, here at Pure Desire. But the three of us here, we went out through all that, but we're able now to help hundreds and thousands of people with our story. And so for those who are listening and have that sadness or that grief or why did this have to happen? Like, we do need to grieve that and get through it, but there is also so much hope and then using what we went through to help others and. And so I can hold, like, I had no parental guidance and God is using me and thought I was strong enough to go help others and that it's okay to have both those feelings at the same time.

It is. Absolutely. And I find it. I do say, I don't really. I wouldn't do it over again. I feel like, you know, because of what God's allowed to have happen through my story and to help other women. Like it was worth that experience, but it's also worth the experience to make sure that this doesn't happen to more women.

Yes, exactly. Well said. Okay, you're quoted. The church has treated women's sexual needs as an afterthought. Talk about that a little bit. And in what ways are women's sexual needs treated as an afterthought?

And this as a blanket statement, and it's kind of a rough one. I'm not trying to make fun of the church or be mean to the church, but I love the church, the big C church. But I think at the same time, depending on what church culture you grew up in, you probably weren't listening, hearing a lot of sermons, talking about men to be responsible for the sexual needs of your wives. You heard a lot of the other where women, you are responsible for sexual needs of your husbands. And yet those, Both those statements come from the same verse. And yet we are. We are ignoring one of them. In fact, the one about the husbands taking care of women is actually first, and then it followed by the husbands or w. Wives are responsible for the sexual needs of their husband. That's 1 Corinthians 7. Just talking. That's Paul talking to the church about what we're supposed to be doing as husbands and wives sexually. I grew up Baptist, if that tells you anything about my. My sexual upbringing in terms of that. But, you know, so hearing sermons about that women have sexual needs, that women have a desire for sexual pleasure is almost completely IGN in many church circles. And so, and we, we. We put so much emphasis on gratifying men, making sure men are taken care of sexually, when in reality, women have probably just as much in terms of sexual desire and want as men do. And so the question being, you know, what is that? What does that mean? That's what I'm just trying to say is I feel like the church has been ignoring the fact that women are sexual beings, that we enjoy sex, that we have sexual pleasure and we have sexual needs. And so. Yeah, what's the rest of your question on that one? Sorry, but, like, I'm rambling.

Yeah, I think you covered it. And we, we do get the message that men are sexual and women are emotional. And so men, you know, you meet, you meet your wife's emotional needs and she'll meet your physical needs, which is actually, I think, kind of a put down to both genders, because men, Men also have emotional needs. And many men in the church have not been taught that you're also an emotional being and you need connection and intimacy that goes beyond sex. You need to be seen and known and loved. And maybe our culture hasn't let men really see that part of being a man. And at the same time, women have sexual needs, and we've got to allow that. People are whole beings. They have different dynamics to their personality. And if we only say that, well, men need this and women need that, it's really kind of reducing them to something far less than God created and designed them to be. And I believe it would be a valuable question to ask married men, like, what are your wife's sexual needs? What does she need from you? And if he says, I don't know, it's like, well, go find out. You're her husband, and you are the only man that God has provided to meet her sexual needs. Have you ever thought of that? Like, and if you don't even know what they are, how adequate or equipped will you be to meet them? And I. I've just found that. I mean, even in my story, like, prior to Pure Desire, I didn't really think about that. You were just, you know, taught that sex is for marriage and let's try to have sex regularly. And, you know, it was good for me and seemed okay for her. It's like, well, we're doing it and hadn't really thought, like, you know what? There's things my wife would enjoy or appreciate or, like, if I even took the time to ask, yeah, and figure out, what are your needs? What are your desires? What are your wants? And I believe that is the teaching of First Corinthians, is it's my role as the husband to put that first and say, man, I want to find out what she needs. And God's calling her to say that for me. But if. If I'm not willing to do it on my side, I shouldn't be pointing at her, asking her to do the same for me. And so it. It just. It kind of opens up that verse to say, wow, maybe there's actually some physical connection we could have if I was willing, as the husband, to ask that question of her. What does she need from me? And then, see, that's my responsibility to do everything in my power to help meet her needs and really believe that will lead to a healthier marriage for both of us.

Yeah.

And I do know one message that I heard in the church growing up as a girl was to not be a stumbling block and to not, you know, be careful how you dress and how you act because you're going to make all of these men struggle and be tempted and you don't want to be a stumbling block. And so, yeah, we did, you know, not all churches, like you said, we love the church, but there is, there are some messages that really planted in us as men and women, you know, growing up in the church.

I'm going to add two things, if I can, onto what Nick is talking about, not to get too personal. Like, my husband has said that if men knew how fun it was to provide for a woman's sexual needs, they would do it a lot more often. And so again, talking about, just asking her, you know, what do you like, what do you not like? You know, how can I help fulfill your sexual desire and sexual needs? And then as you're saying, Ashley, like, and just to add to that, you know, I remember being in youth group, being a porn addict as a teenage girl at youth group and having, you know, the, the, the, the Wednesday night where they split the guys up into their own group and girls into their own group and the guys are talking about pornography and lust and girls are talking about modesty and how to dress. And I remember being like, can I go in the other, other room and have that conversation? Because I didn't feel safe to bring that up in that space either because they made it to where girls don't struggle with that, you know, so it was very much like, I, there's something wrong with me. I'm more like a guy and that, you know, I'm some abnormal girl who's a big old sinner who clearly is like just off the deep, probably needs to go to an insane asylum. And so that was other messaging that I received. And it wasn't until I was almost 19 that I ever even heard another woman say that she watched porn. So we're talking nine years of struggling by myself in loneliness, not knowing that other women struggle with pornography. And it wasn't from the pulpit that I heard this woman speaking, speak. This was a one on one conversation. I, I met with Full Minute Church and she shared her testimony with me. And so, yeah, the messaging must, must do better in terms of, of the church's role in all of this for sure. Which is what, which is why I'm glad the, this new report is available.

Yeah, well, yeah, so glad for those ideas. And I think you're right. We've, we've not taken seriously that women are sexual beings. And the next question is along those lines. The report found that 40% of Christian women would say they view pornography that to some degree that is a part of their experience. But if you break it down by age groups, for millennial and Gen Z women, it's even higher that millennial women it was 62% and Gen Z women it was 64%. And I think a lot of people will be surprised by that, that that percentage of women are viewing pornography. So I'm curious, does it surprise you at all? And would you talk a little bit about pornography? Why do women struggle with porn? Like for those that are really surprised, that are maybe stuck in the. Well, I thought porn was a men's problem. Like just talk through, like, why do women struggle with pornography?

Well, I'm not surprised by the data. I am on the cusp based on the years of birth that the report gave. I'm 1984, so I'm right on the cusp of Gen X and gen or millennial. So if that tells you anything, my age and older or is like is what are my age and younger rather is what's kind of increasing in terms of pornography use. But I also wonder too about the boomers and the Gen X's just in terms of their, their willingness to admit it still a little bit, just because I know my mom's generation, she read romance novels and it wasn't until she was in her 60s that she began to admit that. So and started working with me at she recovery. And so there's, there's still a lot of shame wrapped up in all this, in women for sure. But why do women use pornography? Well, something else from that survey, actually, I, I kind of saved it so I could talk about it. Part of that Barna report was reasons for using pornography. They asked us adults, men and women broke it up. And the number one reason was her personal arousal. Women at 54% and men at 58%. We are sexual beings and we use pornography for sexual purposes. Yeah, I think that's pretty much like, like the easy answer there is that we are sexual beings and pornography doesn't discriminate against gender. And so it should. It shouldn't excite me to see these stats like that, but it's also, it kind of does because it's like I've been talking about this for 15 years that women use pornography and that they use it for sexual purposes. And it's not all because of. Because a partner wanted them to or because they were coerced or any of these things. It could have began that way potentially, but it ultimately becomes something they're using for coping Using for personal arousal, using it for, because it's fun or curious or to get tips and tricks on sex, you know, whatever it might be. But I don't think the reasons they use it are so much different than men.

Yeah, and just like men, as you pointed out, I mean our men, usually their first exposure, like Nick said too, is, is an unintentional, unwanted exposure at a young age. And same thing with women. But like you're saying, that doesn't necessarily mean that's not why they're continuing, you know, they're continuing to go through it because I hear early exposure like your story. I can't even remember my first exposure. It just feels like I was just always exposed to everything growing up. But then I hear betrayed spouses say they went into it to see what was more appealing than them and then they got hooked into it. So now I'm having my betrayed women than needing to go through our unraveled groups because now they're hooked on it. And so it is, it's, it's the same situation for women. Maybe unintentional, but becomes a hook.

Well, and it levels the playing field in some ways. And that was one of our goals with the report, was we wanted people to stop thinking this as a men's issue. We wanted them to think of this as a people problem, as an issue that people, that our society is facing. And in addition to that, we've talked about it in a couple of these interviews. Sometimes we view pornography as kind of like this benign thing that's out there and we can choose to access or not, but we need to recall and keep in mind that pornography is a multi billion dollar industry being driven by people making money hand over fist. And we might see it as a moral problem, but they see it as a money maker. And they've looked at the market and said, you know what, we've done pretty well with the male market. We've kind of tapped out the customer base. What about the female market? And so a multi billion dollar industry is smart enough to say, if we're only appealing to half the population, we're losing half our customers. And they are designing pornography and marketing pornography in ways that appeals more to women because they want to make more money by having more customers. And if we're blind to that, and we just think, well, all pornography is male based, like, no, all pornography is money based. And if they can make money from women, they'll find ways to do it. And so women are susceptible, men are susceptible, and that means women need help. Men need help, and we've got to help our people, not just one subset of our people, because pornography is certainly not viewing it as just one subset.

That's such a good point, too, because, you know, it was the same tactic that money makers tried when their sales were leveling out with, like, cigarettes and alcohol, that they. There was an untapped market in women. And so starting to advertising that this. It was this liberating thing. It was, you know, I think there was an ad that was like, light the torch of freedom or women's liberation or something, and that's. That was representative of the cigarette. And then sales skyrocketed for women and making him long and skinny and attractive and. And then the mommy, you know, culture of wine, like, that's all very, very targeted. And so even just if you are one, that's, you know, like, women should be more sexually liberated. It's actually a very, very strategic tactic to get you entwined and hooked on it. And that is the exact opposite, opposite of being liberated, because now you're hooked on this. That was a, you know, a tactic to get you so. Yeah, well, the report states that the number one way that women are learning about sex is through a friend, and the number two is through TV percentages being 34 and 25%. So are these sources of information problematic? Friend TV?

Yeah. And so that makes me wonder, too, going back to the sex conversations that you're growing up, especially for millennials or younger, are parents doing enough to talk to their kids about sex in terms of the mechanics, how it works, all of those things. But then also, you know, how. How is pornography as a part of that equation, teaching them about sex? The friends thing is interesting to me because it's almost like you're asking your friend because maybe they had more experience than you, and so you're learning about sex through their experiences, which, again, is not a very good source of information in terms of what is healthy sexuality, what is biblical sexuality, what is the right and wrongs of sex in terms of it being consensual and mutual and all of these things that you're hoping to experience. And so it was friends and then tv. Is that what you said? Friends and television? Also not a good idea. I'm thinking about how what you learn. How would you even learn about sex from television? You're talking about, like, Bridgerton. Because if that's the case, that's basically pornography. So that's probably not a good. A good source either. Yeah, yeah.

Well, and as you're talking, Crystal, it Makes me think, going back to our conversation about early exposure, when we're learning from friends, it's usually in those younger years where we're a teenager and our other teenage friends are talking about it. Well, where did they learn from? Probably their own early exposure, and not from reliable sources. They saw a friend's Playboy or porn movie or heard someone using explicit talk. And now we're hearing about. So we're all kind of growing up in this environment where we're learning from one another, but we're all learning from early exposure to pornography or abuse or sexual content. Yeah. And it just, I think in all of these equations, one of the things we're trying to come back to say, there is a silver lining here. And one of the silver linings, it would be very different if a majority of people said, hey, I learned about sex from my parents.

Yeah.

And I still made very unhealthy choices. Then we'd be like, man, what are we going to do? But what we're seeing is like, almost no one says, my parents in church were a great place where I learned about sex. So the silver lining is, what if we could change that? What if 10 years from now, kids said, oh, I learned about sex from my parents. I learned about sex because of a really cool course my church offered that was very age appropriate, helped us think biblically, like, that would be incredible. And so when we see the things that are not good, I think we should see opportunities to say, hey, what if. What if that answer started to change? Would it not only help those kids, but would it change people's answers over the trajectory of their life? Because some of the foundational pieces were different.

One can help for sure.

Yeah, yeah, we can help and act like we. Big we. And we right here at this table can help. And so that's what I was writing down. I'm like, if you are the adult who didn't get the proper information and you're like, where do I start Having healthy conversations. She recovery. Our podcast, Unfiltered Real Talk about Sex and Love. And Sheila Ray Gregor has great sources on her bare marriage, like the honeymoon course, the orgasm course. There. There are Christian people that will help you navigate this or even just start familiarizing yourselves with the conversation. I know some of the women in my. In my unravel groups are like, joining it and they. They're afraid to say masturbation. It's like, oh, we're going to use all the words in this group. Yeah, you probably. Probably you probably the M word. And you know it's like, no, we're going to say the whole word and then by the end, they're just talking about it in a healthy way. And so there are places to even start. If you're 20, 30, 70, there are good, healthy, trusted places that you can start having these conversations.

So, Crystal, one of the things that came out in the report as well is that across the board, and I think if people look at this graphic, it's like, wow, the more porn someone reports watching, the more unhealthy they report their mental health. And of course, you know, in stats, it's hard to know is that causation or correlation, like, do they watch porn because their mental health is unhealthy or are they unhealthy because they watch the porn? But I think either way, the question is they're connected. It shows a connection between our mental health and how we're using pornography. And so how do you see this playing out for women in particular, particular who are struggling with pornography? What impact do you see it having on women's mental health?

Yeah, I think causality does matter a lot. I. I'll speak from my own experience too. So I was being exposed at 10 years old, feeling very isolated, feeling very alone in that, and not knowing where to take that. Becoming a Christian at 15, compounding all of those guilt feelings. But now I have shame feelings with regard to my faith because I can't seem to stop, even though I've been saved by the blood of the lamb. And you're told that all your sins should be washed away and that you should be fine and forgiven, and you are fine and forgiven, but you're not whole and healthy. There's a difference. And, and so for me, there was a lot of shame. And I think shame really does wreak havoc on the body, but it wreaks havoc on the mind. And for me, personally, I really suffered with depression. I suffered with anxiety, anxiety over just the feeling, just all the shame and feeling like I couldn't, I couldn't get over it. And that anxiety manifested itself in many different ways in my life, socially, even driving, driving a car was difficult for me. Like, just the anxiety was so, so strong in my life and the depression was so intense. I had suicidal ideation. It was very dark. So talking about, in terms of, of causality, there could be some, some that would say that it was because of the pornography that isolated me and created so much shame is what caused those things. Some of those things can also be genetic and hereditary. My mom, my mom and grandmother and so on and so on and so on. Also struggle with depression. But there's usually, I would say there's not always a causality to depression, but there usually is triggers to depression and things that happen that cause a depression to manifest itself. And women that we work with, we do see that a lot. We offer trauma counseling because of the need to deal with the why under the behavior. And so coming out of that, you're going to see sexual abuse history, you're going to see physical abuse history, parental neglect, other things that are coming out. And we're using pornography as a coping mechanism for. But at the same time, all of those things also can cause depression and anxiety and other mental health issues. And so again, can we look at causality? Sure. But I think also that its impact on mental health is large because you're using it for coping. So are using it as a coping mechanism, using it for comfort, using it, using it for sexual gratification, which then of course boosts your oxytocin, your dopamine, your endorphins that cause that temporary euphoria. And then you find yourself back in that despair cycle where you're struggling again. So certainly I see mental health issues in women that we're working with. I can't, I can't definitively say there's a reason why or a causality, but you could certainly see some correlations. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, and then as you touched on your. Just your journey and your personal experience, which was very similar to mine, the shame is like, oh, I'm finally in church. But like, oh my gosh, the shame is just like magnified now that I'm in church. But then also for me, it was really eye opening to me when I stood back and looked at everything that if I'd stopped acting out sexually, then I started overeating, if I, you know, got a handle on my bulimia, then I owe some OCD and that even just, you know, reading the, the book recently, the Dopamine Nation, and realizing that's exactly what I went through, even though I didn't know it was, I needed to take all of that out because when you're just doing this with your, I mean, people can't see me, but when you're going up and down with. Just flooding your brain with all of this false stuff and dopamine all day, then when you're in a down, you. It's gonna dip way below the baseline and you are gonna feel depressed and you are gonna feel all these other things and, and it's Just a vicious cycle that we have to just step back from and just recalibrate. And, and I guess that's the, the hope I would offer is when you're in it, it feels impossible because those moments when you try to stop, it feels so painful because your brain is used to it. But that when you go through the whole process of renewing your mind and your body and soul, you get back to that level of peace and just, it's, it doesn't feel so overwhelming, like your brain is a prison anymore.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's such a good point too, especially with regard to the dopamine high and just the, and just the, the journey for dopamine. Right. And so for women in particular, this goes, this goes back to women's struggles in particular, which aren't necessarily mental health related as opposed. But they are. You're talking about bulimia and food issues. My first love was food. I always say that like I was 8 years old eating my feelings, but then I was exposed to pornography at 10 and pornography replaced kind of that food coping mechanism. And then as I would kind of get some sobriety under my belt, so to speak, in my teens, I would go back to food and then back and forth and back and forth. And it wasn't until I, you know, went to therapy and started dealing with the why I was coping the way that I was coping. I could deal with, you know, not just transferring addiction from one to the other and going back and forth, but actually get to the why underneath that and heal it so that I don't have to deal, I don't have to have the dopamine fixation in order to feel like I'm gonna, I, I can survive, you know, a traumatic, a trigger or whatever I could, but I could move beyond that and get to a place where I was healthy and whole.

It's really a double edged sword, I think for women and for men that the appeal of pornography often comes because we, we feel the need for something. You know, I know for me as a teenage boy, it was the awkwardness I had around girls. I wanted to feel accepted, I wanted to feel wanted, I wanted to feel valued by someone, particularly a woman, you know, the attractive girl noticing me. And in the fantasy of pornography, all those things would happen. I was noticed and seen and the beautiful girl wanted me. And it's like, oh, but then you, you get the euphoria, you get the high and it's like a little while later, now I feel even worse because now I've done something I feel shameful about. And now I'm back remembering, like, no one in real life wants me, sees me. And if they knew what I was doing, they would even more so not want me, not see me, not value me. And so you're, you're kind of stuck in this spiral that the thing you're looking for is what takes you to porn and it just causes you even more of what now you, you feel like you need. And I think women and men, that impacts the, the mental health side because I'm. It's kind of like to go to your food issues as well. I'm using junk food to try to get healthier, and that's not going to work in food. And using pornography is not going to help me get healthier in my relationships or in my way of seeing myself and others. So when we recognize. And I think part of the reason to kind of emphasize that is we do tend to listen to the lie when we're struggling. This isn't hurting anyone. That's something we might tell ourselves. And I come back with people to say, if I can come to the point of accepting this is hurting me before I even worry about my relationships or other people or the victims on all those things are true. But a starting point for some people is to just acknowledge this is not helping me. It's leaving me more anxious, more isolated, more depressed, more shameful. It is hurting someone. Okay, well, maybe I better find a way to deal with it because I see the pain that it's causing.

Whether you can acknowledge it's hurting other people in terms of a human trafficking issue or whatever. If you can come to the understanding that it's hurting you.

Yeah.

And that what's happening inside your body and your mind and the reason you're having to cope is because you keep going back to this thing we call that rock bottom. Hopefully getting to that place where you're like coming to the end of yourself and say, look at, look at yourself and look at where you've gone come from. Look where you started and look where you are today. Are you happier now than when you were first exposed? And the question is going to be absolutely not. Especially in the, in the aftermath of acting out, where your despair is back and you're, you are just sitting with yourself and your feelings, you realize how dark of a place that you, you've gotten to and that you need, you need help. That is that whole needing to surrender to the fact that you become powerless and that you need help and you can't do it by yourself.

Yeah. And that's the perfect lead in to what. What would you say to the woman who is having trouble managing her sexual desires in a healthy way?

Tell someone. Yeah. You know, I think for me, that was really the first step toward getting free, was being able to say me, too, to somebody who shared their story with me. And we may not all get that opportunity to say me too, because that's it. That's a gift to be given when someone shares a story with you first. And you can say me too, but there are so many more resources today than there were when I was entering recovery. Just a quick Google search and you'll find, honestly, dozens of them. Now for women in some form or fashion, whether they're blogs or groups or whatever, Pure desires groups, unfiltered podcast, she recovery Bethesda workshops. You know, there's. There's all kinds of. Of places for you to get help and support, but it could also be as simple as scheduling an appointment with a therapist and just saying the words out loud to somebody who is safe and unbiased, whose objective, who's going to be there to support you and not judge you, can be one of the most freeing things you can do. Just. Just be able to say the words out loud to. To someone else. And if you can't say the word to somebody else right now, find a mirror and say it to yourself. Say, I have become powerless to this struggle and I need help. Yeah, it's just saying it out loud. One saying it out loud kind of removes the power that it has over you because you're believing that you're isolated, that you're alone, that there's no hope. But to hear that you. That there's hope is something that is going to be very, very freeing and hopeful for you. And so that probably is the first thing is just say it out loud, tell someone, speak it, and stop living in. In that darkness and isolation. I agree.

Well, and one of the positive outcomes I hope is related to this study of beyond the porn phenomenon is that women look at the numbers and say, I'm not alone. And we don't need to say that in a dismissive way of like, oh, well, we're all struggling, so no big deal. But in an empowering way of like, why am I sitting here thinking I'm the only one? Because there's probably women around me. And if someone would speak up, if someone would say, women, let's do something about this. Men, let's start a group. Women, let's start a group. If done in the Right way, there's going to be other people that raise a hand. You know, I would actually recommend you not ask someone to raise their hand publicly. Give them a confidential way to raise their hand and say, me too. Can we talk? So if these numbers can help you see that, I think it takes us to that place of empowerment of man. If we're all struggling like this, let's do something. Let's get together. Let's find the healing pathway. Let's begin a group in our church and not let everybody just sit in their own kind of mess thinking no one can understand, because the stats make it pretty clear. A lot of other people around you can relate pretty well. And if you're the one that's got the idea or the vision, find a healthy way to speak up and start something because you are not alone and real help is possible. Like, Crystal, you were saying, there's a lot of great stuff out there, but someone's got to have the courage to reach out and start it, to open the door, to start the conversation. And perhaps God could use you in this area.

Yeah, and I love what you said, too, Crystal. If you're the struggling woman, go tell somebody. But if you're listening to this and you are the leader, the staff member, you have some position where you can be the person, like you said, the gift to somebody so that all they have to do is say, me too, then do that. And I remember coming on staff at Pure Desire. And so I started speaking with the team nine years ago, and one of the sessions I taught was about the betrayed spouse, which love, love, love teaching on that. That's my story. But we weren't talking about the struggling woman. We weren't talking about the struggling woman. And I remember having so much fear in creating this session to be able to just softly incorporate, Hey, I struggled with love and sex addiction, too, and masturbation issues and the lies. Even though this is what we do for a living here at Pure Desire, where I'm going to make the men in the group stumble. I'm going to make this, the betrayed spouses, mad. And then I said, no, Ashley, this is. This is what keeps pastors stuck. These are the same fears that keep pastors stuck, that keep teachers, parents stuck. And I have never, in all the nine years I've spoken and shared that I was a love and sex addict, too, or any of the ways I struggled, had anybody tell me it was triggering or inappropriate. Not the betrayed spouses, but quite the opposite. The betrayed spouses said, you know, I think part of that is my story too. And I just, I've never heard a woman that shared it from the stage. And I even the husband saying, I related to a part of your story. And so just to work past that fear and if you are in a position to give that gift, give the gift. If you are not, then go tell somebody.

Crystal, this has been so good. We're really thankful for your voice in the report. One of the questions that we have been asking all of our guest experts who are a part of the beyond the porn phenomenon report is to just wrap up with what's one piece of advice. If you could give listeners a piece of advice that you believe would create positive change in this area, what would you like to say to listeners today?

Honestly, just like Ashley is saying it is speak about these issues. And Nick, like you talked about, if we are seeing the numbers now there, the playing field is evening in terms of men and women and pornography use. And so if this is a church listening, I just want to say you have such a unique power in the pulpit to instill change in terms of helping individuals find healing in their sexual brokenness. And it may not even be pornography. It may be other sexual brokenness, such as women who have sexual abuse, men who have sexual abuse. And to use your pulpit as a way to say that is not how God designed you to experience sex. Here is how God designed you to experience sex. And if this is not how you experienced it, get some help. And here are some resources that could be of aid to you.

Yeah, yeah. So good. Well, Crystal, let our listeners know if they wanted to hear more from you, if they wanted to access your resources. Where could people stay current with what's happening for you and for the ministry that you're a part of?

Yeah. The easiest way to connect with us is on our website@she recovery.com she as in the pronoun she she recovery.com love to see you there.

Yeah, yeah. Well, we will definitely put that in the show notes. We highly encourage our listeners to check it out. We. We believe in you, Crystal. The work you're doing, you know, you're 15 years into this and you were a pioneering voice for quite a while of kind of shining that light. Say women are sexual too, and women struggle too. And I'm thankful we're in a day where there are more ministries. But I still know and see that the work you're doing is significant and is inspiring others. And so thank you for continuing to be that voice for women and to be a healing place in the area of their sexuality. We're just so thankful to get to partner with you and to have you be part of this report, and I'm.

Really honored to have been a part of it as well. And I look forward to continued partnership with Pure Desire and hopefully Barna as well in the future.

Yeah, well, we look forward to that. And listener, if you are a fan of today's show, what you're hearing in this content, we would love it if you would subscribe, take a minute and share this podcast with somebody else or write us a review. These are all ways that someone else might become aware that there is hope, freedom, and healing. And if you if you would like more information about Pure Desire's groups, resources, or counseling, visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.