387 - How Pornography Use Impacts Marriage w/ Carol Juergensen Sheets (Part 6/8)

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Hello there good listener and welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. We are your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. I am your host, Nick Stumbo and you are listening to episode 387. And here joining me again as we continue this eight part series on beyond the porn phenomenon is my co host, Ashley Jameson. Ashley, good to see you again.

Good morning, I mean afternoon. Good day, good day.

Whenever you might be listening, it's all a good day.

It is a good day. I'm very excited to talk about our subject today with Dr. Or let me rewind.

We found out she's not a doctor, but we feel like she is. I think that's why we keep calling her doctor.

She's a. Yeah, she. Doctor of experience. Anyways, I'm very excited to today to do our interview with Carol the coach. I really just value her feedback and opinion and insights and everything she has to bring to the table.

Yes, Carol Jurgensen Sheets is an expert in this area, worked with a lot of people. She mentioned she's been in the field for over 20 years. She's written a couple of resources that I'll talk about in a minute. But today we kind of turned the corner. You know, we've talked about the data, we've talked with Julie SLATTERY and Sean McDowell about kind of bigger picture church issues. We got to talk with Crystal Day about really specific women's issues and how women struggle too. And today we turn the corner a little more to talking about the impact on women and on marriages and the betrayal that comes from pornography use. And so tell our listeners a little bit about what they can expect from this conversation, all the good things.

I'm really excited about this because for those who were familiar with Josh McDowell's, you know, the, the porn phenomena, the original one out in 2016. Right, 2016. That was a question I got from just people who are familiar with pure desires. Will this one have more for the relationship and the betrayed spouse? And so I'm excited that we get to unpack that data a little bit and just that it, that it does have an impact on the marriage and that and looking into how it impacts the spouse of the struggler a little bit more than previously.

Yeah. And I really love the way that Carol kind of gets into that, of, of giving insights into the spouse's mindset, what might be impacting her spirit, her way of viewing herself, viewing the world. And I really think for many, you know, if you're A listener that this is kind of a new topic. You've been listening to these podcasts because you heard about the data or the Barna report and you haven't really explored how pornography use feels like betrayal and creates trauma. This is very eye opening. I mean, I would say in my own story, it was a big part of what led us into actually getting counseling and getting help was when I saw like, this wasn't just a me issue. This was destroying my marriage and destroying my wife. And then it's like, wow, this. This thing that I've tried to tell her is not about her. Whether I wanted it to be about her or not, it was about her. It was because it was impacting her and our marriage. And it just really, I think, creates more motive to say we have to address this. And I think Carol unpacks a lot of that understanding in our episode today.

What I really love about her unpacking this for us is that we have the data, but her 20 years of working with couples, she's able to give us some examples of. Well, this is what I think, based off my experience, some of this could be coming from. And I think that helps put it into perspective for listeners. Just put some realistic examples, life experiences around that data for them to be able to connect with it more.

Yeah, yeah, she's very relatable. She's very fun. I think you're going to enjoy the conversation a lot. Immensely. And so if you don't know much about Carol the Coach, a little bit more about her. Carol Jurgensen Sheets has been treating individuals and couples for over 41 years. She is a certified sexual addictions counselor and a Certified Partners of Sexual Addiction Trauma Specialist. She trains clinicians and coaches nationally and internationally and and believes that her partner sensitive treatment approach enhances treating sexual addiction and partner trauma in the relationship. She has her own podcast, Sex Help with Carol the Coach. You can find that in the show notes. And she has over 500 shows interviewing experts in the field, as well as two YouTube channels, Sex Help with Carol the Coach and Carol the Coach. So basically go and Google Carol the Coach and I think you're going to find our guest today. She has written two books specific to sex addiction and partner betrayal. The first one, Help Her Heal, One that many of our listeners might be familiar with. And then a second one, Unleashing youg Power, Moving through the Trauma of Partner Betrayal. She also has a third book that is for couples called Help Them Heal. And this teaches you both how to heal your relationship after sexual betrayal and informs Couples on the methodology she calls urcm, which stands for the early recovery. Sorry, stands for the Early Recovery Couples Empathy Model. And she describes a little bit of that today. And she has trained close to 250 professionals on the URCA model. With all that in mind and all the great expertise that Carol the Coach brings, here is our conversation with Carol Jurgensen Sheets and the new report, beyond the Porn Phenomenon. Carol Jurgensen Sheets, or better known as Carol the Coach. Welcome to the program. We're so glad to have you on today.

Thank you. I'm honored to be here.

Yeah. Well, today is the sixth part in our series where we're unpacking the stats and the data that have come out in the book from Barna, beyond the Porn Phenomenon. And, Carol, you were one of those that was interviewed to get your thoughts and perspectives. And today we really want to focus in on the impact that this topic of pornography and sexual addiction has on marriages and on the spouses of those who are struggling. And so let's dive into that. Several questions or several of the results, I should say, in the data show that in general, women are more harmed or hurt by a partner's porn use than men are. And why do you think that is? Why are women more likely to experience porn use of a partner as harmful or as a betrayal?

You know, it's an interesting phenomenon because I was taught in my clinical training to be porn neutral, to absolutely not pathologize pornography. So I've been In this field 20 years, specifically sex addiction and partner betrayal. And I am so not porn neutral. And the reasons being that it affects. It affects our culture, our community, our families, our relationships negatively all the way around. And what I mean by that is women are harmed because women tend to compare themselves anyway to anybody. And I work real hard at getting them not to do that, just in general. But when women find out that their husbands have been looking at pornography, they automatically know that they cannot compare in the same way. And so that sense that their husband is objectifying something other than them in terms of noticing them, desiring them, having sexual thoughts about them, is very destructive to the relationship. Now, do I know couples that can look at porn together and feel satisfied? Yes and no. My experience is that initially couples may watch porn together, but organically, women, after they've done that for a while, tend to rein that back because on some level, it makes them feel bad about themselves.

Yeah.

So I think that's why women really are disturbed when their husband looks at porn. And then there's that second facet of, you know, a lot of the porn stars have been abused as. As children and have gone into this field to control their own situation or they've been trafficked. And women are compassionate and empathetic, and they don't want other women to have to be in that situation.

Yeah.

So that is why I believe women more often than not are against pornography.

Yeah, I think that's a great point. And we try not to stereotype because there's always exceptions, but in many cases, stereotypes have developed because in general, there are some truths behind it. And I think what you're pointing out is that in general, women do tend to compare. And when they have a spouse that's using pornography or looking at things outside the marriage, it does create a deeper sense of their own worthlessness or not measuring up. I've heard another author speak about it that God has kind of hardwired into men and women different fundamental questions. They said that men are asking a fundamental question of am I good enough? Do I measure up? And women are asking a fundamental question of am I beautiful? Am I desirable? I'm sure there's men and women listening that say, I identify more with one or the other. But I think in general, that's a question that women are kind of asking of the world, of their fathers and of the men that they are married to is, am I beautiful? Am I desirable? And pornography so directly strikes at the heart of that to say, you're not. That there's something else that I need. And whether the offending spouse intends that or not, it doesn't matter. Intent really doesn't matter. It's the way it makes them feel. And I think another part of it too is that pornography in general does objectify women. It portrays women as weak or vulnerable or abused and portrays men as strong or masculine and the perpetrator of what's happening. And so that makes me wonder too, if when men perceive their wife watches pornography, they're not engaged at the same level of hurt, even just because of how pornography portrays men versus how pornography portrays women. So again, not to say that's always the case or universally true, but I think there are some factors there that pornography treats men and women very differently and then maybe has a deeper impact on how women perceive their partner's use.

Yeah, and it's. It's interesting because when I was thinking about my discovery with my husband's porn years, porn use and even prostitution, I've spoke with many women who. Whose husbands have seen prostitutes or visited prostitutes or looked at pornography, and it's the idea of that seems so transactional. I can't even wrap my brain around it. And it makes me think, just between personally, my husband and I, I'm so interconnected, and women can be so relational, and it. Everything is interconnected. Where my husband. It's like, this is transactional. It doesn't have anything to do with you. Which really offended me in the beginning. I'm like, what do you mean? It has nothing to do with me? And. And I know. I know we unpacked all of that, and I know what that means now, but it really was this difference of being able to compartmentalize so much more than a woman can. And not to say that's every instant or even that women don't look at porn, which then causes sometimes more shame, but that in general, women are very emotional and relational, and we. Everything is connected where men can be a little bit more transactional and like, I'm in this box right now doing this thing, and it's not connected to this other thing.

Yeah. Good observation.

Another stat in the new Barn report is 84% say they have no one in their life helping them avoid pornography. Many women might feel like it's their role or job to help a husband stop or avoid looking at porn. Is this a wise or successful strategy?

Yeah, And I want to say both and neither. The truth is that women have been socialized to believe that they can monitor and control their husband's porn use. And if their husband wants to look at porn, he will do that. Now, I tend to work with motivated men who realize that pornography is a gateway to. To other things. And so they want to protect their brain, and. And they want an action plan to stop looking at porn. They realize that it is objectification. They realize that it has harmed their wives, and they also recognize how the wife jumps in and wants to help, and she's in pain because of what's. What's been done. So I say neither, because it's really up to whoever is using the porn to stop and to have a good action plan for that. Because, again, I do believe it is a gateway drug. But I come from a place where I say when couples have this issue and they're recognizing it and they want to change that. It's okay to be a teen. Yeah. Yeah. And the wife can be kept abreast, if you will, of how he is doing, and also may have some observations that are helpful to her husband. For instance, I mean, men just sometimes forget things that make them susceptible. Like, you really shouldn't go in the bathroom with your phone. A woman will remind a man of that, and he'll go, oh, yeah, sorry, I wasn't thinking. So that can be helpful. But I say neither, because I don't want the woman to feel that she is responsible for monitoring her husband, because then she becomes the parent or she becomes the warden, and we don't want them in that role either. So they can be part of a team, but the woman should not feel the need to monitor that. Now, truly, there are filtering systems out there that when I've had them on my podcast, they've said, we want the wife to get the report because it's so much more effective and controlling pornography. And I do agree with that. It is more effective if the wife's made aware of that. And if the wife wants to do that, that's fine. It's whatever that couple decides is best for both of their mental health. So that's why I answered that way.

Yeah. Yeah. I've told many men in group who will say, oh, my wife's my only accountability partner. She gets my reports. And I've said, be careful with that, because you're turning her potentially into your mother or your police officer, and you don't want her to be in either of those roles. You want her to be your wife. And. And so it. It could be okay for her to receive the reports, but I think the direction it goes, kind of like you were saying, is really important. If it's the wife who feels like I have to look over his shoulder, I'm responsible to watch everything he does. That's a really heavy burden to carry versus if it's the spouse, the husband saying, this is my commitment to you, because I'm committing to be transparent. I'm committing to have no secrets. I'm committing to allow you access to. To anything you want to see, any question you want to ask, and doing it in that desire. I want to create a relationship where you feel safe and feel like you can know at any time what I'm doing or viewing, because I know that will help rebuild trust. So if the husband is offering that and making that a part of his commitment, that's a very different kind of role reversal where it's being rooted in his decisions and commitments, not making it her job. So I think you're spot on that it really has to come from that heart of the spouse who's struggling to say, these are commitments I'm making. And then if the wife is comfortable with it, being a part of that team with him, can Be appropriate. But, you know, I'd also say to women, listening, if up front, some of that is too triggering. It's too much, and you don't want to know that. But you still need to have ways that you're aware of his behavior. There are other options, and we could, you know, potentially get into those. I know both what you do as a coach and what we do as a ministry is to help betrayed spouses try to navigate some of that very difficult area of what should I know? What don't I want to know? Because it's too triggering. And that can be a bit of a minefield.

Yeah, I was going to say a couple of things. One, the Help Them heal workbook. My husband and I are going through that, and that's one of Carol's books. Carol, the coach. She's my coach at home. And I think it's a great workbook. After you've both done your own work and you're ready to start helping each other in that way. And. And I was even thinking about that the other day. I had asked John for his phone. I said, I need you to log into your email because our tire order went to your email. And he kind of said, well, why can't I just forward it to you? And I was like, oh, oh, I just got triggered. And then I realized when I got into his email that he had ordered me a ring for my birthday next week, and that's probably what he didn't want me to see. But in that it can easily put you back in, like every little thing as a spouse can put you back into. I have to go into this deep dive. It raises anxiety. And so I like what you guys are saying is both, you know, be transparent with each other, but also have your own accountability and hear us say that being sexier and doing the things you see on porn are not going to keep him from looking at porn. If that's, you know, one of the questions going through your mind, too, more sex is not going to equal less porn, because that didn't work for me or many others.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm so glad you made that point, because you're right. They're so separate. And sometimes women find out that the porn that their husbands are looking at are not anything they would think would fit that arousal template. You know, it might be Filipino women over 600 pounds, or it might be furries, or it might be, unfortunately, men. So truly, it's not about how the woman looks that makes him want to go to porn. It's something he Developed more than likely way before they ever met. And he has that addictive gene in his brain, that enzyme, and we're really studying that right now to try to find out what is it for that person that makes this addiction much more tethered to. I gotta go out there and see what else is new. I just want to say thank you for looking at the book. I'm a big believer in early recovery couples work, and that's what Urkham is. And not necessarily doing a deep dive into couples therapy right off the bat, because as you said, Ashley, you have to be able to work on your own individual issues. Now, the only other thing I would say, and this is deviating a bit from porn, but for women out there, you might want help and support so that you know what to do and you get validated and acknowledged, but you shouldn't be in recovery because you didn't do anything wrong. This is really about support for women and recovery for men.

Yeah, that's a really great point, Carol, and a really good segue into the next question, because one of the data points that came out of the book, the beyond the Porn Phenomenon, is that only 9% of pastors would say their church has a group for men or women who are struggling with pornography. And so we would expect that the percentage of churches that have a group to support spouses is equally low. And I want to just ask the question, why is this so rare in churches to offer a support group for spouses? And. And what opportunity might a church be missing by not providing this kind of a support group?

Well, you know, it's my experience from talking to thousands of people and finding out where they go to their meetings, that there is a real stigma to have sexual addiction or problematic sexual behavior. And. And so churches don't necessarily want the stigma of having those kind of people in their congregation, but we all know those kind of people are our fathers, our brothers, our uncles, our cousins, our sons.

Yeah.

And really, the church should be the number one lifeline for our couples and our families to provide support. I think that's going to change. I'm certainly seeing that it is. But it has to do with stigma, and it also has to do with the church not knowing that sex addiction or problematic sexual behavior is not pedophilism. And, you know, they want to protect their young and make sure that there's no intermixing. And again, what we know is there are. There is a classification of sex addiction that has to do with. It has to do with extortion, and it has to do with exploitation. But most sex addicts are not pedophiles. They would not harm a child most. And so we really do want our churches and our religious leaders to know that this is a service that could be such a safe place within the church. And there are religious leader programs around through some very reputable organizations. And so I think it's changing, but it's changing slowly. And part of it is out of misperception, and the other part is out of stigma. Stigma that they don't know what it is.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in the report, it came out that 50, that 54% of Christians would say they struggle with pornography to some degree, which means that a majority of marriages within a church are being impacted by this. And so it's. It kind of leads to that question of why wouldn't we want to help a majority of our marriages if this is an issue they're battling? And to get through that stigma of this isn't just a few select of those people, like, this is most of us. And as you said, there are friends, our neighbors, There are people that look like us and act like us. They might be us. Right. It's not, you know, some unique group that's sneaking in the back door of the church like that perspective. This is us. This is a body of Christ challenge. And the body of Christ needs to respond. And so I really think if we had that little paradigm shift away from those people to seeing it's a majority of our church sitting in the pews any given Sunday, that might help us walk a little more boldly into this ministry.

Well, there's so many mixed messages too, of, you know, that you shouldn't deny your husband sex and there's just bad church teaching. But then if you have a couple that comes to you because maybe the wife or the husband see this as a sin issue and they're going to the church, that's the first place they go because it's clearly a sin issue or moral issue. That's. I'm going to go to my church. And the, the addict has had years to practice the craft of deception, looking calm on the surface, making it seem like everything's okay. And the wife just experienced betrayal trauma. If a pastor is not equipped to understand that betrayal trauma is a real thing and what it does to the mind, body and soul, and she comes in looking crazy with her language center offline and all worked up, and he's calm because he's had practice with, you know, deception, then she often experiences extra trauma from the Church of, you just need to calm down, and then they're put into regular marriage.

What's wrong with you?

You just need to relax and stop being so controlling and smothering and put into regular marriage counseling. And that's. That's really harmful. And so I think some of it is just a lack of education as well. That betrayal trauma and the way that it. And the way that sexual addiction impacts the spouse is. Is something to take serious.

Yeah, we need to look at it through the lens of trauma, and that's what betrayal trauma is. It is actually the central nervous system ramping up and women not knowing how to bring that back down. Now, we're learning a lot more about that. But that also enters into your question, and that is that I think historically men have had all sorts of different groups to go to to get help with addiction. You know, whether it's drug, alcohol, gambling, workaholism. And churches have been open to that. But that stigma of sex is tougher. So they've been. Men have been better at making that a priority and asking the pastor and putting it on the docket. Women have taken a back seat and have put themselves last. And so that's why we don't have as many support groups in our churches, synagogues, temples. Yeah. Yes.

We are changing it slowly but surely, Right?

Absolutely.

Okay, next stat. In the report that we picked up on was 61% of men said a partner's porn use was positive or somewhat positive, versus 22% of women. But 51% of women said a partner's use was negative or very negative. How might this large perception gap be causing a problem in marriages?

You know, that was one I had to speculate on because, I mean, I certainly see it in my own practice, but my belief is that men have been socialized to be able to ogle women and to notice them and to knock each other and say, look at this coming down the street. They've just been allowed to do that. They've been encouraged to do that. And there is, if you will, kind of a good old a boys club. And when they initially started looking at provocative pictures or pornography, magazines, VHS's, and the computer, there was a certain amount of shame that. That they felt. And they typically kept it secret. And then they rationalized that and they minimized that and they justified that, and they said, what she doesn't know, what the pastor doesn't know won't hurt them. This is just guys being guys. And so my belief is that men would love their wives to be a part of that because it would make them feel less shameful. They really don't want that division. And yet historically, they haven't had the resources to not look at Playboys or other magazines. You know, I'm thinking about men that are 50, 60, 70. Now with computers, we know that kids, the average age used to be, when I got trained, it was 11. Now it's eight. Kids are seeing things they can't even comprehend. And that's a whole nother issue. That's how I got into this field was children, women, if you will. In answer to your question. So men, it decreases their shame if their spouse will come along with them on the journey. But because women are more relational, I believe they have a better sense of conscience that this isn't really healthy for us. I don't know that it's right or wrong. I do. I think they think it's wrong, but it's not healthy. And that's why they begin to move away from looking at pornography with their husbands. Definitely. There's a lot of women that have tried that and maybe they've tried it for a couple years and not found it to be fruitful. There's no judgment here. I just believe that women have a better intuition of what's going to work for their marriage, their relationship, and that's why women are not as pro. Hey, yeah, let's go look at porn. As men have been socialized to do. Yeah.

Well, Carol, I think when you say you're speculating and yet you've worked in this area with couples for 20 years, you're allowed for a little bit of speculation based on your experience. And you know, that was kind of my take too, in working with men and just hearing people's stories. I think very often when a man has had a wife using pornography, it is partly because of his encouragement to do so in order to bring for him more sex into the marriage. And maybe a wife who's trying to make something work or improve went along with that. And the end result was that guy got more sex and he's like, hey, yeah, I think it was a positive thing and really ignored the impact it was having on the marriage or his spouse long term. Versus I think more often than not, when a woman has had her husband using pornography, he's typically using it for the same reasons, for himself, for his own pleasure. And so in the case of. And again, we're not trying to stereotype all marriages and all men and all women, but I think we've seen that pattern that men more often are Using pornography either to manipulate something in the marriage or to get their needs met in the way that they want. And so of course, women will perceive that as unhealthy. And that's not to say women do that, don't do that as well, use it for their own pleasure. But I think there's just a greater percentage of women that said, I only used because I was trying to do something for him. And that leads to some skewed results between their experience of it in the marriage.

I was wondering too, and I always use mine and John's experience. And then, like you, Carol, I've been over the groups department for nine years. And so just my own little research pool of ladies and men that, you know, John, he sexually acts out as an avoidant behavior. It's a, it's an escape. I sexually acted out in pursuit to feel loved. I was anxious and ambivalent, so I pursued love and did sexual things in order to feel loved. And so it was like we were using it for two different things. And so then if I see him using sexual acting out, then, then I think, oh, that's what he wants. When really he's using it just as a way to numb out. It's. There are different uses. And, and, and that took me a while to realize that he has no emotional attachment to what he was doing. Where mine was an emotional void I was trying to fill through that behavior. And so it didn't make as much sense to me.

Well, I know. And there are just so many. Our young people are being socialized to experiment in all sorts of ways. And certainly there's a lot of porn parties on college campuses, co ed porn parties. And they're doing it, and it's the thing to do. And what I'm dealing with now are women in their 30s that said, oh, yeah, I, I did that. I was curious, I was intrigued, I was turned on. But ultimately, when I thought about the fact that I want to have a good job and wanted to find the right person, I wanted to have kids, I realized that I would not want my kids to know what I was doing. And that was a good guidance system for whether it was right or wrong for me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Carol, this is a question I've really been looking forward to hearing your thoughts on. You know, the question was asked, how did porn use create unrealistic expectations for you? 61% of women said yes. And I'm actually surprised the number's not higher because I think, by and large we say, yeah, porn is completely Unrealistic. And the expectations it might place on a woman are just totally not real, and yet they're there. And so with that number, 61%, what I wanted to ask is how do you see this showing up in marriages, that if a husband's using porn, what expectations does it put on the wife? And what would you recommend to a woman who is feeling or carrying that burden in a marriage?

Well, unfortunately, a lot of couples don't get professional help, and so they don't receive good guidance, and there's a cloud of shame that hangs around and makes them feel bad about themselves. And so that reported number of 61%, I believe is reflective of. Okay, so it's over 50% where they feel bad. But the other part is it's a confusion of how am I supposed to feel? And they don't have safe places to talk about it, to really discern, if you will, what their true thoughts and feelings are. And so I think that number is lower than we expected because there's still a whole group of people that aren't sure how it affects them. And they don't look at it from. You know, they may look at it from a moral issue, or they may look at it from a relational issue, but they really don't recognize that your biggest sex organ is your brain. And that there are certainly men and women alike, that when they begin that curiosity of pornography, it leads them to wonder what else is out there? And what else is out there? And our, you know, I don't know if your listening audience knows that computers were not made to have an encyclopedia, and in our own homes, it was made for pornography. And that what else is out there is the addiction. It's never feeling like you're whole because you're wondering and perusing and curious about what you haven't seen. And now that we've gotten. Now that pornography is not just pornography now it's men and women scrolling for, you know, affair partners that are married and unmarried, you know, scrolling for prostitutes or people that are looking for transactional sex with or without money. I mean, what we're seeing is that porn has become more and more and more sophisticated. And it's really encouraging people to step out of their marriage for the sake of either pleasure, boredom medication. If I do this, I won't have to think about that. I mean, life's stressful, and we need healthy ways of dealing with our stress, not lusting at other people.

Yeah, it definitely shapes the way we view our relationship. And as you were saying, the brain is programmed to want more and more, and especially in this area, when it's not connected to that meaningful, intimate relationship with our spouse, we get just enough of it to feel good and to know we want even more of that. But it never can quite satisfy. And that's the case in any addiction, that it's always creating the need for more, which then undermines the marriage. And I think we're seeing that where women feel like, well, why am I not enough? And when they're in that place, we have those women come to us and come to our groups. And I think part of it is finding a way, if it's not being addressed, to express honestly how they're feeling and make sure their spouse is aware that maybe something has been normalized because of a person's family of origin or the culture they came out of, where it's like, oh, that's just porn, or boys will be boys, or all people do it. And so they've kind of normalized it. But for a spouse to maybe call time out and say, this is really harmful to me. This is really making me feel like I have to compete with these images. This is making me feel like you're not actually into me. And that's undermining our relationship. And if that conversation. I mean, I know we probably assume like, oh, every man knows that or has heard that. Well, maybe they haven't. Maybe they are so, you know, caught up in the fog of denial and delusion that they think it's all hunky dory. And to have a spouse say, I'm not okay and I'm hurting and I can't exist in a marriage where this is the norm. That could be the little starting point of, oh, there's a problem here, and we need to begin addressing it.

Yeah, and you had touched on this earlier, Carol, just about comparison. I think this is a good opportunity for spouses to do just a sexual reset. Because when you have porn at your fingertips and you can pursue all of your fantasy and fetishes and things that have developed over these years, and you can just keep feeding that, it does create so much insecurity and pain for the. The wife that they can never measure up. And. And then not only that, we're not meant to see everybody else's naked bodies. And so just the. The trend direction of, oh, well, I have to have liposuction and bigger boobs and things that we're seeing on tv, which we should. We were never meant to see. You know, we were never meant to see how everybody else Looks and, and it really does just create such a deep level of insecurity. And what I hear from women is just feeling used because they know that their spouses are pursuing this and that's not them. And that was my own story too, of like, here I am, this mom of four that just had all these children and twins and. And you're typing in this into your search history, which is not me. So then I feel, you know, when we have sex and I'm just being used, that this isn't really what you want. If you can type in exactly what you want, this is what you want over here. And so just doing a sexual reset for both of them to be able to just have that space to recalibrate and just start from ground zero and building that trust and intimacy.

Well, yeah. And then the other side of that is that our teenagers and college kids that are viewing porn are not able to have relationships. And when they try to have some premarital sex, whether you think it's right or wrong, they can't. Right. Because train their brain to want that. So then they get into a marriage and they have a rectal dysfunction and arousal problems because again, you aren't that object of desire. Instead you're his wife. And. And it really just muddies the waters for a marriage that should start out pure. There should be that pure desire, right?

Yep. Which could contribute, Carol, to our previous question of why we see some men thinking it's more of a benefit. Because, you know, the pressure really is on the. The male to perform. A woman could be there also having trouble being aroused, but it's not going to hinder their sexual act. You know, you can just kind of keep going along with it and fake whatever you want to fake. And so bringing in porn to try to be triggered by whatever you've trained your brain to be aroused by so that you can perform and that. Yeah, it's a vicious cycle. Okay, well, let's move on to our next question, which is or this. The stat is 41% of women said porn was causing tension in their marriage versus just 25% of men. Again, what can a woman do if she's feeling this and what does she need to say or do to address this tension with her spouse?

I think she needs to find somebody who is actually trained in sex addiction, problematic sexual behavior, somebody who works with couples, somebody that will not shame or blame her. You know, unfortunately we have seen that some well meaning therapists or pastors will say, well, how much sex are you having with them as if that had something to do with this desire to look at porn, it just doesn't. So it really takes a deep dive into organizations like yours where you've got some people that you really recommend that you know are good at what they do, that are non judgmental, that will help rebuild the relationship and knows things about abstinence and that you might have to do a 30 or 90 day reset and knows how to help a man control his urges for dopamine. And no, no. Even addicted doctors, some men have, have such an issue with this that they really do need an entire team approach. And I think that's what you're providing right now. That's why you did the research. Right. I mean, this was brave and courageous research to do.

Yeah. A big part of it is we want people to face this reality that, that we're not okay. And because it's such a private personal matter, I think we just assume and churches can be guilty of this. Like, oh, I think everyone's kind of got it figured out. And you look at the dad and it's like, no, we're not okay. There's a lot of problems. And you know, when I hear that 41% of women say this is causing tension, I imagine that often that tension is because the problem is ongoing and it's not changing and they're not sure what to do. And you know, I would echo what you said, Carol, that we really encourage them to get in a support group because even if your spouse is, is not yet ready to change or willing to, you need that support. And we have a number of women that come and join a group before their spouse does. So it's not like, well, if he's not doing anything, I just have to sit and wait. It's like, no, you, you can find support. You can understand how to have your voice and where to set appropriate guardrails to, to express what are you not okay with. And, and to have some even consequences related to that of, hey, if, if you're doing politics, pornography, that's your choice, but I'm not willing to be physically intimate with you. And it will need to be at least this long for you to detox and deal with it before I'm ready to consider that in our relationship. And I heard someone say recently that a boundary without a consequence is just a suggestion. And I think a lot of spouses are stuck in that of like, well, here's the things I want you to do or not do. And then when it's not followed, it's just like, well, please don't do that. Try harder. But nothing changes because there aren't any consequences. And I have just seen on the men's side, it's not always fun. But as men, we have needed a wife to say, if you do that, here are choices I'm going to need to make. And sometimes they're painful things of like sleeping in a different bedroom or spouses that have even moved out for a time because, like, I need space to feel safe and to rebuild trust. And often that is something that leads the marriage back together because a husband starts to take his behavior seriously and realize, like, oh, this, this isn't just something that, well, all guys do it. Or it's not like you were saying about John. Well, it's not about you. It's over here in this compartmentalized place in my brain. Why are you so upset? When they see a spouse say, no, I can't put up with that. And here's steps I'm going to need to take, A little light bulb goes off and goes, wow, if I want to keep this marriage, I'm going to actually have to deal with my stuff. And that can be done in a way that is both gracious and truthful. It doesn't have to be vindictive or mean, even if you're really hurting. But if you've been able to lay out some of those things to address that tension, I really think as the spouse, it can empower you to feel like, I'm. I'm not voiceless here. I don't just have to, you know, because I made a vow, put up with anything. Now you might be really looking to honor your vow to stay married, but maybe within that vow, you do need to take some steps to create a little bit of tension, a little bit of space, a little bit of opportunity for you to work on the hurt and betrayal and to really challenge them to work on change. So I just think when you're in that tension, you've got to get support. So you know how to start taking some of those steps.

Yeah. The Betrayal and Beyond groups, which Carol, the coach, we did go through your training before we modified that and we found so many good nuggets from that training and. But when. When I think about tension and where I used to. To live, what Betrayal and Beyond does our groups is helps cut through and clarify because tension to me used to just feel like this fog or this cloud I had to live in. I couldn't put my finger on it. And so getting language, understanding exactly what your thoughts and your feelings and your needs and what's happening is so important. Identify what is, when are you being gaslit, what is manipulation, understand the addiction, understand what's happening to you. Be able to verbalize, um, a good example of tension that I think somebody could see in their marriage that's not even related to. It doesn't seem related to sex, but it is. A couple of weeks ago, my husband was having two separate interactions with our 14 year old daughter and our 13 year old son. And I put the dots together after both interactions that his sexual shame, because they're reaching the age where he started to get really reprimanded by his parents at that age was starting to interfere with some of his conversations. And so after the, my daughter had left the room one night, I had said, I, I think your narrative from your teenage days is really popping up here and it's, it's hindering you from being the dad I know that you are and inside. And that really was just a light bulb moment for him. But I could have gone over here and been like, got focused on this one interaction between a teenage daughter and her dad when it really wasn't about that, it was about something much, much deeper connected to his sexual shame. Not even about the interaction they were having. And, and so just educating yourself as a spouse. So then you know how to make these day to day decisions because you're not going to just fix it with one conversation. You need support.

Well, and you talk about that, that tension, I mean the tension may be like your husband felt when you helped him to realize that it was about his sexual shame. It's like the tension you were talking about when he said well why can't I just forward it to you? And you started to flip back and spiral into the old days. Right. Instead of staying present and those kinds of tensions are ever present. Yeah. And so I would say to our listening audience that truly pay attention to how you feel and make sure that both of you are talking, communicating with each other and then stay in the moment as much as possible while you figure out what are your needs. And I don't just mean the spouse's needs, but also his needs. You know, if you're reading the book, you know that I say to provide safety and stabilization requires that he do, he does 85% of the work initially to provide safety. And yet what we know is eventually we want them to be an equal relationship again. Right. So it's so important for our couples to be able to, to talk with each other, to share their Feelings to even know what they are and be open, honest, authentic and vulnerable. And sometimes that takes a support group. Sometimes. I mean, the men that I work with and help her heal really support each other from the partner's perspective. They're like, dude, yeah, I know she, she overreacted to that. But, you know, you were lying to her for 30 years and they just kind of bring it back home. And we all know that when we hear it from several different resources, it means something to us. Your betrayal group is an amazing resource for women. And you've got. How many women are in those groups?

Oh my goodness, thousands. I mean, we have on, we have 100 online groups, betrayal and Addict, and in churches. And, you know, it just continues to grow because like you said, the shift is happening in churches. Slowly but surely the word is getting out there that there's reliable resources to help.

Yep. Just want to reiterate that something Carol just said. She said early on, the struggling or addicted spouse will be doing 85 of the work. So for all of you men who have said, how come I have to do all this work? And you start to turn the corner and say, what is she doing? It's like, no, no, no, no. Early on it's going to feel that way. Like you're doing all the work and you should be. And if you will do it faithfully and consistently and intentionally, you can get to a point where it becomes more equal labor.

Yes.

But early on, let's be frank, you've got some work to do and it is on your shoulders. And so if it feels like it's mostly up to you, Carol said it 85%. Carol, I think one of the things you mention in the beyond the porn phenomenon that I thought was so great and wanted you to unpack is that you suggest that church leadership pastors should get trained in the area of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. And if we're honest, most pastors got zero in Bible college or seminary. And so they might be wondering, like, why go to that work? So why is this area important for pastors and leaders to understand even if they didn't get it in Bible college or in seminary?

Well, because they are such a lifeline for the communities that they, they support and, and love. And this is hard stuff to talk about. And so they need to get comfortable talking about it and they need to hear the brain science behind it and they need to find out how to be non judgmental because more than likely they were brought up with a lot of sexual shame and because that's What I believe God wants them to do, God wants them to be the conduit for their congregation and their parishes. And it takes training. You can't just will it to happen. You could certainly become a scholar in it and read. But to get the training and to get the support from other men and women that are doing the same thing, that are learning for their congregation or parish, I mean, it is a lifeline that is unfortunately way too rare. And they are role models in our community. So that's why I say that they should do it. And I think I even mentioned in the report there are lots of places to do that and lots of good places. I come from appsats, a partner sensitive training program that saw so much spiritual trauma from well meaning people that didn't know what to say or do that they created their own program. And you know, they have an orthodox Jewish component, they have a Catholic component, they have a Christian based component. It's just when we know better, we do better. And that's the philosophy I've always worked from. And that's why I'm a lifelong learner and I hope they will be too.

Yeah, we are big advocates of the APSets program, the BTRL, the betrayal trauma for religious leaders. We had our whole staff go through through it and be educated on how do we be understanding in betrayal trauma without feeling like we have to fix all the problems. And I would go back to the meaning of the word pastor. You know, a pastor is a shepherd and a shepherd leads sheep to a pasture where they can feed and graze and get what they need. And a pastor doesn't have to be the field, they don't have to be the grass, they don't have to raise the crops, but they can guide people to that place, place where health and healing can come. And so if they have some equipping and they're educated in the programs that are out there, if they understand some of the basics of what, of what you teach and what pure desire utilizes and how Appets trains people, then they become that guide to those green pastures and can help people navigate, you know, the valley of the shadow of death, where it feels like there's no way out of this. But a pastor can say, let me guide you to a better place. And if you'll get in touch with some of these resources, I really believe God can, can bring healing into your marriage. And if we had pastors speaking that kind of language of hope and freedom and healing like that could really revolutionize churches.

Oh, well said. Absolutely. What do you Think, Ashley.

I think a lot of things right now, so. Good. I was just thinking if we could get church leaders to go through the betrayal trauma, religious leader training, and then not feel overwhelmed that they have to raise the crops, water the pasture, but that, that's what pure desire then does. We have the resources. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. We'll even take your leaders and hold their hand while they're leading groups because it's lack of education, it's shame of your own story, but then it's also feeling overwhelmed. Like, how do we, how do we unleash this in our church? We, we never even have enough volunteers to begin with.

Right.

You know, and so just we, we have organizations and here are two, you know, right here that we're talking about that can help come alongside. And so, and I was just thinking about the tension. You know, this has all been men, women, marriage based. But I always am saying pastors are the shepherds for the church, parents are the shepherds for their home. And it really goes hand in hand for me. And so parents and pastors have to get educated. If you're listening to this and have shame around anything that has been brought up in your mind today, or sexual shame, that starting with that for yourself is going to be a great starting place.

Yeah, I agree. As well as that, that adage I just said about when you know better, you do better. I think today can be the start of some brand new resources for people. And so if anybody is feeling any shame, sexual or parental, you know, talk about it with people that care, talk about it with pure desire, Talk about it with your groups. Because we're not meant to operate alone. We're meant to be together.

Yes, we are. Okay, here's the million dollar question. Okay, what's one piece of advice you would give to create change in this area as we wrap up today?

You know, I have been so honored to do this work. And like I said, it started with kids. And I was getting questions about how to keep kids away from pornography. And I grew it up based on the needs of the people around me. And so as I enter today, what I want them to know is that there are resources. Obviously you're a great resource. They can contact me at any point and I will get them to the right places. We have to work together because like you said, the pastor can't be the field and nor can you guys, nor can I. But on my website I say, hey, I'm leaning into retirement. But what I do know is that I can help get you the right places and the right people because we, we have really, we're all pioneers in this field and so are our listeners. They're having to figure out how to deal with this. So don't give up. Don't give in to shame. Stay in the moment. Love your God. Know that God will lead you there and. But use the resources that God's given you. And if it feels wrong, it is wrong. You know, we've got some resources out there that are. Are healthy resources. So bless your hearts for letting me come and be with you today. And to all of our listeners, it's always a privilege to be on Pure Desire. I'm, you know, on two faculties with appsats and itap, which are the csatrs. I just am so blessed to be so connected in so many different ways.

Well, Carol, we are so thankful for you and the work you do as we wrap up. I know you got girls night and we, we love that. We want to make sure you're free to go, but tell our listeners where they can connect with you. Carol the Coach, if they want to hear more from you.

Okay, well, you can go to www.sex help with Carol the Coach. And I'm more fried into help them heal. That is my niche. And I am working with people that have problematic sexual behavior and their. Their spouses and, and infidelity in general. So you can go. On my website, I have over 500 columns. I have probably 300 videos. And I have to tell you, I know everybody in this field. We'll get you where you need to be. Yeah. Have money, whether you don't, whether you need support. And there's nobody around. Even my books, I wrote specifically for the person so that you could get the help you needed based on the book. So that's what I would say.

All right, so sex Help with Carol the Coach. We'll put that in the show notes, make sure people can find you. We'd love to have them check out your resources. Carol, again, we're honored by your time and your insights. Thank you for being a part of the beyond the Porn Phenomenon project. And thank you so much for joining us today.

Yes.

And to our listeners, if you're a fan of this community content, please subscribe, share it with somebody else. Write us a review. All of these are ways that other people can find out that there is hope, freedom and healing available. And if you would like more information on Pure Desire groups, resources or counseling, go and visit PureDesire.org Journey on. My friends, you are not alone, SA.