388 - Rebuilding Trust Together w/ Dr. Barbara Steffens (Part 7/8)

Foreign. Good evening and good night to you, our listener, whenever you are tuning in. Thanks for joining us on the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal, trauma and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. I AM your host, Mr. Nicholas J. Stumbo. And today is episode 388, or also known as part seven in our series on beyond, beyond the porn phenomenon. And joining me is my co host throughout this series, Mrs. Ashley Jameson. Ashley, good to see you. How you doing?

I'm just really glad to be here. That intro of good, good afternoon, good night, good evening. It almost sounded like a late night music host. Like Delilah, you know, like male version. Delilah, Delilah.

You know, you've got to have a special kind of voice and personality to be on like late, late night radio. I remember there was a guy that was always like, you are listening to night sounds and I thought, why do they have that guy if you were listening to him while you were driving, like you're going to be out crashing your car. Not a good thing.

Yeah.

Well, today we talked with a friend of ours, someone we both think very highly of, Dr. Barbara Steffens, a big part of founding a group called appsats and really kind of one of the founding members, if you will, on partner betrayal trauma when it comes to sexual addiction. And so today we really focused in with her on the impact it has on marriages and spouses and really what can churches do to help those spouses? So what were kind of your takeaways from our conversation today?

I just, I mean, I just have to say about Dr. Steffens. I mean, she is one of the few people that I feel I learned from, I was mentored from, in just understanding how real and legitimate betrayal trauma is and what that looks like for the spouses of porn users. And, and so I'm just excited for her to be able to shed light on that, that, you know, we hear it's not a, it's a victimless act and it's not. And so just highlighting the damage that it does in marriages and also giving churches some ideas and some language. I love that she gave us some what not to say because sometimes when we're not, when this isn't our area of expertise, we do just like tell me the things not to do. And so you'll get a few of those in this episode.

Yeah, yeah. I think whether we're a church leader, someone who struggled in this area, someone who's been betrayed, there's a lot to learn here. And Dr. Barb just has a way of saying it in a very kind of, kind, matter of fact, straightforward way that we need to hear. She is perhaps the grandmother we never had that we could safely bring these issues to and get real wisdom and advice. So I think everybody's going to get a little bit of that today. Well, a bit more about Dr. Steffens. She specializes in helping women recover from sexual and relational betrayal and is a sought after speaker and a presenter on these issues related to partners of sex addicts. She is a retired mental health counselor, a board certified coach, and was the founding president of the association for Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists, or as we say, AppSats, an organization that provides training and certification of clinical partner specialists and partner trauma coaches. That's a lot of words and if you work with them, you can get a lot of letters behind your name and it looks great. But honestly, their trainings are really top notch. We've had our staff go through them. Dr. Barb also consults with other professionals and provides training for those who want to help partners heal or to become trauma informed in their religious communities. She is the co author of youf Sexually Addicted How Partners Can Cope and Heal. And she is truly a pioneer in the field. Calls herself the grandmother of those who have followed behind her to help partners heal. So with no further ado, this is part seven in beyond the Porn Phenomenon with Dr. Barbara Steffens. Dr. Barbara Steffens, welcome to the podcast. It is so good to have you with us today.

Oh, it's good to be here.

Yeah. Well, it does feel like getting together with a friend and someone that understands the work we're doing and was featured in this new report from Barna that we partnered with them on beyond the Porn Phenomenon. You were one of the experts that they reached out to and we wanted to just pick your brain a little bit about some of your quotes and data that came up. And I want to start here because I thought it was such a powerful quote that whether we're in this industry or a church leader or just a concerned citizen, I think it's really an important statement that you made and you said that pornography used by one spouse is not a marriage issue. It is an issue that impacts and wounds the marriage. So unpack for us the difference between those two things, between it being a marriage issue and it being an issue that wounds and hurts the marriage.

Well, if you think of a marriage issue that might take you to a marriage counselor, it's something that's going on within the relationship. It's known it's, you know, how are we relating with each other? So that's the marriage part. And a couples therapist, someone, a pastor who's really good at that, can help people communicate more clearly or make some changes in behaviors. But it's. The marriage isn't working in this situation. You have one person in the marriage who is doing something that most likely the other person knows nothing about. And it is not happening because there's something wrong in the marriage. It's happening because an individual makes a choice to go and look at pornography. And typically, and as the research showed, very often it's not known by anyone else. It's a secretive behavior. So it can't be really part of, you know, the marriage interaction because it's not caused by another person. One person is being deceptive while the other person is believing, hey, we're in this together. And yeah, maybe things don't feel right right now, but generally that's because of the secretiveness and the deception that's going on rather than there's dynamics in the relationship. It's not caused by the marriage. Right?

Yeah. So often it's good to kind of think of it through the lens of other addictions or struggles that if, if a married couple came and said, you know, one of us has a secret drug addiction or a secret alcoholism, you wouldn't say, wow, let's fix your marriage problem. You'd say, man, we need to address the problem that is impacting your marriage. And because pornography lands in the realm of sexuality, I think we look at sexuality as a marriage issue, but it doesn't make it a marriage issue just because it involves sexuality. So I think that's spot on and it helps us remember it's not an outside in approach. We're not going to help fix the marriage. That will then take care of this inside problem called pornography. It's really more of an inside out that we need to address what's happening for the person who's secretly been consuming pornography. And then as there's traction there, we can go out towards the marriage. And I think that was just such a vital quote because many people maybe view it as, oh, this is a marriage problem. Let's help the marriage get better and that'll take care of the pornography, which, as we've seen and as you're discussing, is not the case.

Yeah, and I'm sure we're going to talk about it, but a lot of times that's the first response that someone gets when they go to try to get some help is, I'll say, well, come on in, both of you, and let's talk about what's going on in your marriage. And it's. It's not about that. It's about the deception or someone doing something outside of the relationship. So going into a marriage therapy session the very first time you find out about your loved one's pornography use is probably not the best first step.

Right. Why we want somebody that's partner sensitive and trauma informed helping you through this, because that was definitely part of my story. I mean, we were doing a lot on our own, but too early were we focusing on, okay, let's look at what we both brought into the marriage. Ashley has control issues, which is true, but that is not why my husband started his sexual addiction at 15 years old then, so.

And why he was hiding from me.

And why he was hiding it from me. Exactly. And so it just. Yeah, that focusing on that injury and that betrayal first is so important. So this next question goes a little bit into what you've already touched on in that marriage issues are known. There's something happening that's visible in the marriage. And a lot of times this hidden sexual behavior is secretive. And so with 49% of people and 48% of Christians say no one knows about their porn use, this translates to lying and deception to a spouse. Why is this so destructive in a marriage? And how can we confront the idea that what she doesn't know won't hurt her?

I think I want to start with that last little piece first, that what she doesn't know doesn't hurt her. What I hear in all of my years working with partners is they are experiencing some level of hurt even before they know what's been going on. Perhaps they're having some physical issues, they're having nightmares. They're convinced their loved one is being unfaithful or having an affair, but they don't know about the pornography use. And so there's this sense of something's not right, but they don't know what it is. So it's already happening. A lot of partners, people who have been in relationship with someone who's struggling with their behaviors, they will develop physical illnesses as a result of the stress. And the stress can be there even though they don't know exactly what's going on. And as you know, those of us who are Christian, you know, I think our spirit knows something is not right as well, and so that manifests itself. So I just wanted to start there. But if someone is in a committed relationship, and this is supposed to Be our safest place. Right. Our safest human relationship is in our marriage and our. Our connection with our spouse. And if that person is intentionally withholding important information and lying and being deceptive, that's very damaging to the relationship. And even if she doesn't know, like we already talked about, she's going to know in her spirit, she's going to know in her gut, she's going to know in her body. So living that. That dual life, having a secret and having the partner, the wife not know about it, that that can't bring about cohesiveness in a relationship. It's going to impact other people around the family. So it does need to be. It does need to be addressed. It needs to come out in the open, which is a very painful process to have it come out in the open. But it also helps people make sense of it once they find out. So it is important. It is important to tell someone, tell your spouse, tell a friend, but to not keep it a secret, because that's only going to add to the destructive nature of using pornography, especially chronically.

Yeah. Yeah. I've asked people if we could think of our behaviors as a pathway and to say, where does this pathway lead? And I think most people, even when they're struggling in some of the depth of their addiction or battling with pornography, they can see it's a pathway that if it continues, it leads to increasingly unhealthy and destructive places. Now, of course, we think, oh, well, I'll never go that far. But they can still see, like, this is where the behavior could lead. And then I ask the question, does keeping it secretive from your spouse increase the likelihood that you will continue doing it or decrease that likelihood? And I think it's pretty clear. It's like, well, when they don't know, it increases the likelihood that it will keep happening. And if it keeps happening, it also increases the likelihood it will go to whatever the next level is until it is at a point that it's unavoidable. And that's, unfortunately, when so many people come to organizations like ours for help, is because it's gotten to a point, it is now unhideable. It is. It has erupted. There's been discovery. There's been. And by that point, like, the pain that we all have to see, it's like, oh, what if they could have gotten help five or ten years ago? Well, the reason they didn't is because they believed it would never go that far. But because it was secretive, it kept going. And so if. If we can just step back sometimes and go, man, as I keep it a secret, it increases the likelihood that this will just keep happening and get worse. And I don't want to go there. I'm going to learn my lesson from watching other people, and I'm going to face this now at its lowest possible level rather than waiting for that to happen.

Yeah. And it also is. I mean, there's layers upon layers of deception going on when someone is hiding their pornography use. It's that I'm doing this, but all the things that I am lying or not being forward about that I may be doing to protect this secret. And so it can be layer upon layer of deception that absolutely erodes any level of trust in a relationship. That's one of the reasons it's so hard for a partner, a spouse to recover after this comes out, because I had no idea my loved one was capable of keeping this level of deception going on for such a long time. And so now they start to say, well, who is this person? Do I really know them at all? So it shakes up everything in our relationship.

Absolutely. And my two words that I always say, my descriptive words were, when I found out about my husband's addiction was shock and relief. Because there was that felt something's not right and that gut instinct that you're given, that holy spirit intuition.

And now you have a word for it.

Now I have a word for. There's a name for. For it. And we think we do such a good job. Even once I got on, on the, the bandwagon of healing and partnering with John and, and trying to help, you know, my healing, and he was going to his groups for his recovery. We thought we were doing a good job of communicating on our kids level that everything was fine and we were just working on our own things. And, and I've told this story before, but we were at dinner once, and our daughter, I think she was 5, 4 or 5 at the time, her prayer was, and help daddy stop lying to mom. And we were both like, we thought we were hiding everything from her. We thought they didn't know we were going through struggles. We were just going to men's Bible study and women's Bible study each night. But she knew there was something off and, and you could see the anxiety in her those two years that we were trying to keep things from her, you know, and, and so even on a kid level, I mean, your wife is intimately involved with you. The, the sense that something is off is so felt.

Yeah, I think that's such a good point that the Kids are going to pick up on something and that we need to give them some solid answers on, you know, yes, something is going on. You are being well taken care of. We are here, we love you, we are taking care of ourselves. But acknowledge the reality of, yeah, something, something's happening, but we are working on.

It and validate their, their perception. I mean, that's a great strength that they're, that's a good gut instinct that they had or their perception, because you want to validate that and said, yeah, you're right. You're very smart and you were, you know, you picked up on something and that's actually very valid. Even as a four year old.

Yeah. I remember in our journey when I was about a year into sobriety, that there were still things triggering my wife. And one time in my naivety, and forgive me, I didn't know what I know now about betrayal trauma. I said to him, like, man, why are you so hurt? Because I'm doing so well. Like, it's been a whole year. And she made a pretty profound statement that I remember. She said, I didn't see what you were doing when you were doing it. Now I can't see what you're not doing now that you're not doing it. So she's like, I've had to just rely on your word and what you tell me you are, aren't doing. And she said, you know, I can see you're going to group. I can see behaviors changing, but there's still this some deep internal fear that what don't I know? And that just really spoke to me of like, okay, this, this is going to take longer than I thought because there has to be consistency and it has to be multiplied over time because she didn't know what was going on when it was going on. And so the change is often about things you're no longer doing, which they can't see what you're no longer doing. And so that willingness, how do I engage in a way that they can see the change, they can see the steps I'm taking, and then being patient to allow that mistrust or that hurt to continue to work itself out.

Yeah.

Dr. Barb, one of the things that we want to talk about too is that, you know, this is a people problem. Men and women can struggle, and at the same time, men and women might be on the betrayal side. And so the data shows us that men in general may feel less hurt by a spouse's pornography use, but do men experience betrayal trauma as well? And why might this be a difficult topic for men to face, that maybe I'm feeling betrayal trauma because of something my wife has done.

I do think that, and I know that men experience betrayal trauma. And it may be. It may look a little different sometimes, but a lot of the responses are very much the same. They can have the same kind of trauma responses. It may not be so much around pornography, because at least this is how Barb looks at it. Women walk into relationships with an understanding that very, very likely the man that we love has had some access, some encounter with pornography. And so it is hard, it is traumatizing, but it's more about the deception and believing now this was my safe person. Men in pornography, again, because they have access to. They know what it's like. They're probably not quite so upset about that. But where I see betrayal trauma, really extreme with men is when it's a case of infidelity with another human being. That tends to be where we see more the betrayal trauma. And it looks very, very similar. There are some differences, of course, but looks very, very similar. But I just don't think that, that men think that women are going to be looking at pornography. Women just assume that it's happened and that it could happen. Doesn't make it okay. But at least we have this acknowledgment out of our own lived experiences by the time we get married of the kinds of things that maybe men have access. Yeah. And right now, you know, the pornographers are really looking to bring more women into the field and have women get involved in looking at pornography more and more. So that may change over time. Perhaps during the next study, they'll find that men are more upset than what this study showed pornography is.

That is one of the things we've said in these interviews is never forget that behind this industry are billion dollar companies that are very interested in making billions more. And we see it often as a moral problem and a moral issue and a sin issue. But for those that are in the industry, they see it as a money maker and an object that they use to gain income. And so they're after women and men and kids and what's the biggest market we can get to make the most money. And that ought to, I think, help us step back a little and say, man, there's an active presence that wants to see this get worse in our society because they're benefiting. And we've got to be wise then to how that impacts us and why we stand against it. And I think whether it's Men or women, that likelihood that my spouse's behaviors can trigger in me that sense of, why am I not enough? Why would I bring to the relationship, not satisfy them? Even though we know in the ministries that we run that that's not the case, it's not because there was something deficient in you that led them to do it. That is still a natural question that people wrestle with, is like, why did they need that when I'm right here, if they're in that kind of relationship? So I think men can feel that of, like, what was wrong with me that this happened? And that then leads to a need for support and being able to process that with other people.

And I think we also have to keep in mind that it's the deception more than it is the behavior. If my spouse came to me and said, I am really struggling with this, I'm really drawn to it, and I really need some help, can you help me either find a support person or help me with some accountability if they share that struggle? That's not nearly as traumatizing as when it's been going on for a period of time, and it's just surrounded in deception. So now you're in a relationship with a person you don't know. I did not know that this person could hide these kinds of things or would be willing to hide these kinds of things. So I think for men who are partners, that's probably where they experience the biggest level of trauma, is the level of deception, the hiddenness not coming and telling me. And I think it is for most partners as well. It's definitely sexually traumatizing for female partners, but it's also traumatizing because the level of deception, you weren't being honest. You weren't having integrity. And so how can I trust you when I now know that you didn't have integrity?

Yeah, and that's. That's what I've seen in my women's groups. For women who struggle sexually, often, very often in the nine years that I've been doing it, the women have engaged with pornography with their spouses or their boyfriends. But what led them to finally come to our groups is it crossed the line into an affair. It crossed some kind of line that all of a sudden the husband was not comfortable with. And I've seen that in each women's group that I've run, and most often than not, in infidelity with another person. But, yeah, it's just interesting to hear you say that. You know, from what you've seen that that infidelity piece is really has a high number of men coming with or what you're seeing with betrayal trauma. Because I see the same thing in our groups too. And I am curious too, if it will change over time now that women are being targeted specifically for pornography and how that will impact the stats. Okay, well, our next stat is only 11% of porn users and 21% of all people say they would be comfortable going to their pastors with this topic. How can a pastor or a leader become a safe place and invite these conversations?

Well, I know one way that they won't be safe places, and that's if they never talk about it, if they never bring it up. Because if you don't use the word sex in some way or pornography or struggle or addiction or any of those kinds of things as you're talking to your congregation, they're not going to know that you're going to be a safe person to talk to about that. So I think we need to just talk about it. My pastor brings it up regularly as just another issue that please come and let's talk. Or so we need to do that. And I think another way to help with that would be to know the people who are kind of on the other side and are doing well in both of their recoveries and have them share stories, but not just the story of the success. We need to share the story of how hard it is or that it was real and how we hid it, or that it was destructive in our lives so that we can be honest. If in our church communities we just all look perfect, there's no place to come when you're hurting. The message is it's not okay. So make sure you talk about it. Make sure you talk about it.

And I would include in that what you said, just underscore specifically mentioning pornography, sexual issues, infidelity. Because what I've heard in some situations is like, hey, any struggle that you're dealing with, we're here for you. And I know this was my story, that when I hear that, there's a little voice in my head says, yeah, but not your issue with pornography or not the things you've done. They mean safe struggles. Like, I struggle with pride. I struggle with, you know, overworking things that are more acceptable because there's a lot of shame when it's not being talked about very much. And if we just say, hey, this is a safe place for anything you struggle with. But then we don't name the struggle that's on people's hearts and minds, they probably still Think, well, they don't mean that one because that's beyond what my church is ready for. And if we name it, they go, oh, they mean me. Okay, well, at least now they're aware you specifically are reaching out to them.

And using people's stories, having people come and share. I think that's really helpful. It humanizes, it normalizes, helps bring hope, but it also shows vulnerability. You know, sometimes in our. In our faith communities, we don't want to be vulnerable. We want to look. Look like I'm. I'm the good Christian right now, and so there are no problems in my life. I need to come to church because I do have problems in my life as well as the times when I'm not. So we can come as our whole selves. I think that will help us then be able to go to our communities of faith for support when this is going on. But it has to be talked about, it has to be verbalized. It has to be shown. There needs to be stories told.

A culture of conversation, not just a sermon, sex talk. That. It's a culture that this week or.

This month, one time only, we're having a sex talk or something like that.

Come for the purity talk. Make sure that you leave your children.

Yeah. For the sex talk. It's like, no kids in the room. And we warn people. And this is going to be PG13 and watch for that. And this is confidence.

Like, oh, gosh, I've heard that we.

Treat the weekend so differently that people. It almost re. Emphasizes, no, this isn't really safe to talk about, but we're going to try one time versus creating that culture expands.

The sense of shame. Right. That way.

Well, I know, Barb, that you have such a heart to train people to equip, to help leaders be that safe place that men and women could come to and share their stories, start their journey. But in your work, you get to hear. I don't know if this is a good thing, but you get to hear a lot of the horror stories, a lot of the misfires. And so many betrayed partners may not feel safe going to their church for help because of the reaction they received or maybe stories they've heard from others of what was said to them. So would you give us, like, what are the top three or four statements or approaches not to take or not to make if you're a leader that does want to be a safe place?

Well, the first one that comes to mind is not saying anything. You know, if someone comes and says, this is going on, and you just Say, oh, okay, I'll pray for you, and that's it. But not really. Enter in and listen. That. That's probably the most common response I hear from partners, where they. They go and they try to get some help, and it's really dead silence. Yeah, that's not helpful. The other things are jumping to some kind of spiritual fix really, really quickly. Like, well, we will be praying for him. You pray for him all the time now. Don't talk to him about it, but just pray about it and make sure you don't tell anyone. We hear that sometimes from faith leaders like, you know, I'm glad you told me, but don't let anyone else know because that will bring shame or ruin the reputation of your loved one rather than, what do you need in terms of support and care for yourself? Who are some safe people in here that maybe you can talk to? So. So quieting down the partner, that kind of thing is really hard. Another one that we hear a lot is why they may acknowledge, yeah, that's really hard. Or I bet you're upset. Have you forgiven him yet? Oh, yeah. Jumping right to forgiveness and that. That's what's going to help you heal, is if you hurry up and forgive. Rather than, what do you need? What's going on? What kind of help do you need? What kind of support do you need? What's happened? Hearing the story. So sometimes it's an uncomfortable story to hear. And so partners will just say, you know, kind of like, thanks for telling me, but I don't want what the message is. I don't want to know about it, and I don't want to hear about it. So those are the top ones. Not saying anything. Jump to spiritual things like forgiveness, advising them not to talk. Or the other one is, you both come in here and I will counsel you both, and I'll be the counselor. Even though I don't know anything about this topic and don't have any specialized training, that also is not a good idea. There's been a lot of damage done there. We're trying to navigate this when it's really a complicated issue and there may be trauma involved.

For the partner, I had experienced the top three that you mentioned. Okay, I'm gonna have to, like, eat some Mexican food after this. Calm down. No, but those were my three. It was the, have you forgiven him? And are you sure you're praying enough? Are you sure you're reading your Bible enough? And then there was the silence in it. And I did go to multiple people, and I got one of each of those top three responses, you said, and it is. So I think that's why I love what I get to do so much, because it's not very hard to be a safe place if you just know what to say and do. Because it really is so much about what not to do. I mean, if you can just avoid some of these phrases that are so damaging, which puts the, okay, well, now my faith isn't strong enough, my prayers aren't strong enough. What I'm doing isn't, you know, good enough. And then the same thing of, well, this is his struggle and it's his story to tell. I also heard that one. And so you shouldn't be going around talking about this because this is his struggle and his story and it needs to be in his time. And. And that put shame on me again, because I thought, oh, now I'm being a bad wife. I'm not respecting his story and I'm not respecting his when he'll be ready to tell people. And it just. Those were all so damaging to me. I'm thankful that I ended up coming out of those. But they were definitely my, my experience too.

Well, I just remembered one more and I don't know why I forgot it. And it's a real common one. Partner, if she's going. And she will get a question around, well, are you, are you being sexual enough in the relationship? Yes. Yeah. Know that one too. Yeah, but don't say that one because it's not about.

Yeah.

The sexual relationship. It's not about that at all. And in fact, it's very likely if someone's engaging in pornography use, they're not having sexual activity. Sexual relationship the way they used to in the relationship. So the partner may feel like she's not receiving what she needs and what she wants. They assume it's a sexual issue.

I remember as a young person hearing at a marriage type event that that idea of if the cooking is good enough at home, they won't need to go out.

Yeah.

Which, you know, kind of like makes sense. Like, oh, I think I get that. But it's totally not true at all when it comes to why people are acting out sexually. It's not a lack or a need. And as we've talked about in so many of our podcasts, like, there's much deeper things that are driving the behavior. And even if there was a complete dysfunction in the home that does not excuse or permit someone to then make choices that are going outside of the marriage. And rather than looking at the person who's being wounded and putting blame on them. We need to keep that focus squarely on the one making that choice and have them be responsible for their choices. I also want to speak to that forgiveness piece for a minute because I think we can get a little tripped up in some of our theology. I mean, there's a great verse in the Bible that says to forgive one another as God in Christ Jesus has forgiven you, which is beautiful and true. And I think it tells us that forgiveness is a command, but it doesn't speak to it being instantaneous. You know, when God forgave me in Christ Jesus, he immediately and always knew everything I had ever done. He knew every motive of mine behind it. He knew all the secret things that I had never said. And God, being perfect in his own emotional health and maturity, didn't have to do any of his own work or processing because God is God and he's perfect. And so to ask someone else to do that in the same way that God did is kind of like saying, well, you should be God too. But the truth is, as human beings, I may not even know everything I need to forgive yet. I may not have even processed how much this is impacting me. And am I just prematurely forgiving to say the words without actually meaning it? And it does still kind of put the focus on that forgiveness is somehow to help the other person. When I really think that command in Scripture is about my heart and that I forgive in Christ as God forgave me, so that I don't hold on to offenses. But that's not going to fix another person's sin or make them better. So I think we've just misapplied a verse that again, is true and is beautiful and calls us to a place of forgiveness, but can kind of ignore that. That might be a process that we need to walk into so that we can do it in a way that is, I think, faithful to what forgiveness should be versus just. I think we. We learned like almost this magic statement of say the words, I forgive you. And it's like somehow magically, things get better if. If we haven't processed it or have any real meaning behind it. Just saying the words isn't going to improve our situation.

No. And I think you said such an important piece is that the Father knows all these things and he forgives, but we're asking someone to forgive when they certainly probably don't know everything yet. And so it's going to take time for them to acknowledge the different things that have happened that have been a Violation and into forgive each of those things, not just the blanket forgiveness, like throwing a blanket over something, it doesn't exist anymore. It's really a grieving process as well as a letting go process. But you have to grieve it first and you have to know what it is. And then forgiveness is for me, so that I am lighter, I am free, I. I am doing the work I need to do for me and between me and God.

Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, I know that I experienced this. And if you forgive, if you say you forgive right off the bat, then what happens is as you are realizing more things, unpacking things, processing through hurts, you could feel guilty for bringing it up again, which I did. I already forgave that. Why am I bringing this up again? Or it can be thrown back in your face.

I thought you forgave me.

Yes, we're past this now. You're bringing up old things and it's.

Well, I didn't know about this part.

Yeah. It's just. It causes so many other issues when you forgive, when you haven't really understood what you're forgiving.

Yeah.

Okay. Well, we hear that. We've learned that women are three times more likely to say that porn use of a partner makes them feel that their spouse doesn't care about them. Why does porn use connect so acutely to the relationship for women, by the.

Time they find out that there's been some porn use going on? Usually, at least in my work, it's not that someone comes and tells them, it's that they find out. We stumble upon it, we find it on the computer, whatever, we find some evidence. And so the feeling like our loved one doesn't care for us. Part of that is not just the pornography uses. The deception involved that you would intentionally withhold something from me does something to the relationship and shows me your level of care for our connection. In a marriage relationship, the idea is you're a team and you work together and you have each other's back. So if someone has been doing something that can, you know, probably be hurtful and they're deceptive about it and keeping it a secret, then that feels like this person didn't have me in mind. And I want to be on their mind as they're making decisions. So they made decisions aside of me outside of things that I would want or say yes to be okay with, then that. That does feel like I am being rejected. I am not being cared for. And then there's the sexual piece too, that we just can't help that if someone is using pornography and they're in a committed sexual relationship, they're going to feel that there's a part of this that I was inadequate, I wasn't enough. And that's a lot of the messages that partners will receive. Just as we talked about what they hear when they go to their faith communities sometimes. But the whole. The whole society, the whole culture is already telling women they're not enough. No. And now my loved one is giving me that same kind of message because he's going someplace else. Yeah. So, yeah, it's very, very painful. Very destructive to the relationship, to trust in the relationship and to feeling connected in the relationship. The connection can really be ruptured on every level. If you deceived me on this, you could deceive me about anything. Yeah. So how can they trust.

Yeah.

Ashley, you said it in our last podcast with Carol Jurgensen Sheets that women. And again, we're generalizing. But those generalizations come, I think, because of some consistent feedback and understanding. There are male and female differences. And in general, a female will see sexual connection as more emotionally based, as more a byproduct of the whole relationship, that it's of all kind connected. Whereas men in general and not all men and not every situation. That's why the stats, I think, say women are more likely, three times more likely, but not universally, that men are a little more compartmentalized. And they can have places where like, well, this is kind of my sexual box, and this is my marriage box, and this is my money box, and their brain just kind of moves in and out of those. And so if there's a disconnect for the man, they're, I think, more likely to feel. Feel like. Well, they compartmentalize it where the woman. It's like, well, I thought we were in love, and if you love me, you wouldn't do that. Where the man's like, well, of course I love you, but this is just that other. You know, that's what I would say to my wife in my years of struggle. And not seeing her pain was like, this isn't about you. I mean, I've struggled with this before I ever met you. I've told you I had a problem, and I'm working really hard, and it. I'm trying my best not to. And. And it's not because. And I would even say it's not because. Because of anything you're doing wrong. Why are you so hurt? Well, I was showing my very compartmentalized brain of. This is a separate topic. And what My wife was trying to express is like, no, it's not. It is all connected. And how can you say you love me and do those things?

Right.

So, again, part of my healing was to accept her reality as being equally valid to my own.

Yeah.

That. Just because I didn't think it was doesn't mean that was true for her. If it was connected for her, then it was. Was. And I needed to be willing to see that.

Yeah. And John and I. I mean, we. We've made jokes because we're. We're at a good place in our marriage to understand each other's nuances, and we both find connection through talking. We love spending time. We have a lot of the same hobbies. But he is a little more likely to say, I feel disconnected. Let's have sex. And then lay there and tell me all the things where I'm like, tell me all the things first, and then let's have sex. I mean, that's just. It is our difference, too, of. We both enjoy both.

But.

But he. But they're expressed differently. And so I wouldn't have sex with somebody that I don't feel emotionally connected to. And so if John is sexually acting out, then. Then my thought is, emotionally, I'm not enough. Relationally, I'm not enough. Physically, I'm not enough. There's something else, because that's strange. I wouldn't. I wouldn't do that. I don't have that same ability to just disconnect that way. And. And it is. It's extremely hurtful for. For women especially, I think that, you know, I see. Come through our groups. And it's like you're saying, barb, it's so much more than the sexual acting out. And sometimes I, you know, this is what I see over and over, that most women. I have never, ever had a woman come through my group that said, oh, the lying wasn't as painful. The deception wasn't as painful. It's all always the years of thinking my life was one way, the decades of thinking my life was one way. Just that. That pain level of that secrecy and that deception. Yeah.

We're supposed to be in a relationship, and it's a whole relationship, and I am trusting that you are bringing your whole self, and I am bringing my whole self, and then I find out there's this big piece of it that you didn't share. Then how am I to trust all the other pieces that I now am putting in question? Because if you could do this and deceive me and keep that from me, what else could you do and hide from me? So it's a very, very unsafe kind of place in a relationship for most partners. When this comes out, if it's been secretive, is that deception? And then your sense of your history is shattered in terms of, I remember when we did this and this, and it was a wonderful time. And now all of a sudden, sudden I know that while we were doing these wonderful things, you were also acting out with porn. And I didn't know. So it changes even their. Their sense of what they remember in the relationship. So it has a big, big impact. And I. I would imagine that that's more female than male, but I would imagine that if a man experienced sexual betrayal, he is also going to be looking at history and trying to rework what was really going on during those times, you know, so that's. That's another really highly destructive part of keeping these things secret.

Well, and it really speaks to what integrity truly is. That integrity isn't just that I'm pure or that I do the right thing. Integrity is that I'm the same and that what you see of me is consistent through all the parts of my life. And what you're bringing up is when a spouse finds that there is a part that is not consistent, it really fractures the whole cause it's like, well, what else? Because now there's not integrity. There's not wholeness. And to move towards integrity again is not simply that I stop looking at porn. Integrity is that I become whole again. And that what you know of me is consistent all the way through, and you can trust it. So, Barb, I know that one of the things you're passionate about is groups for those who are struggling. They need recovery, and groups for those that need support that are struggling or walking through the betrayal and the trauma. So it. I think for the three of us, it seems very obvious, but for other listeners, they may be still trying to wrap their head around this has primarily been treated like a men's issue. So if men have porn issues, they go to group. But the thought of, like, why do we need groups for both the struggler and the betrayed spouse. Would you just speak to that a little bit and highlight maybe for church leaders, why they should consider these being two halves of a whole.

I think I want to start with a story, if that's okay. Just my own. I don't share a lot about my story, but I remember I was at a church that was really, in terms of churches, they were doing a lot of really good stuff around the issue of pornography. They were doing a really, really good job. And then life happened in my situation with my husband, and they did a really good job of rallying around him, and they knew where to send him for a group. And so he had connection almost immediately, and I had none. And I felt so alone. And no one would come up to me and ask me, how are you doing? What is this like for you? And so I felt so isolated. So I went to a friend of mine that was running groups for men, and I said, okay, I love it. You're doing these groups for guys like my husband. Where is the one for me? And he said, when are you going to start it? So that's how I got involved in doing groups. But I think churches need to understand that we want groups for both, but they have different experiences for the person who's struggling. They're learning how to be honest and change some behaviors, and they need community, and they need encouragement to do that for the partner. They have been probably deceived, that probably have some trauma going on in them. They feel isolated, they feel shame, they feel alone. And so it's really important for them to have community as well, where they can hear me, too. This happens to me, too. I remember one group, I was running a group, and a new woman walked in, and she looked around the room and she said, what are you all doing here? Because you're beautiful. Yeah. So her belief was, I'm here because there's something deficient in me. And when you're in group, you find out that's not the case. Something happened to me, and it should not have happened. But now we have support to care for each other because we understand the experience and we can care for each other, but it's not because there's something wrong with you. Group helps. You know there's not, and that you can heal from this. We. We encourage each other better to do that. So it's community. We all need community, especially when we're wounded, especially when we're in pain. If you're wounded, you already feel cast out. Right? I'm different from everybody else. Everybody else looks happy, and I'm wounded. If you go in a group of other people who are wounded as well, then you realize I'm not all alone. And we can help each other rather than being isolated. So they're both necessary. The healing process is going to look different for both as well. And so having. Having those safe spaces where they can be honest, receive prayer, receive encouragement, just be heard. It's essential for healing. Now we were created to be in community. And right now, our primary relationship, where we might go. When I'm wounded, I'd go to my spouse. Well, right now he's the person that just hurt me worse. Need safe places to go to be cared for. So that's why church, we need both.

Yeah, amen to that. And I think it goes back to one of the things you said earlier. If we see this as a marriage issue, we may, and we only have a group for the struggler, we may inadvertently be communicating that the, the betrayed or hurting spouse, as we would call them a church, might be inadvertently treating them like parties of the problem. Like, well, what's, what's wrong with you that your spouse is doing this and how come you're not taking care of things at home so that they don't do this? Because there's not support for them. They may be stuck in that. And I, I remember one of our friends, you know, a number of years ago, before we knew her, was in a horrific situation where her husband was in full time ministry. He got caught in illegal sexual activity. You know, big news in a small community. He's fired, I think at one point is arrested. And she said there was just total silence from the church. And she said, I think the truth is they just didn't know what to do with me. And they didn't know, like there was this feeling of what did you do? That your husband would be off doing that because people in the church had only seen him as this great public figure and he's so kind and funny and smart and then these terrible things come out and it's kind of like, man, what was happening in your home? Or she just felt so kind of in a way blamed that she said, I had to leave that community and go back home to find support. And I know no church wants that, but when we only offer support to the struggler, we often leave that spouse feeling like they don't know what to do. With me, I'm left to find help alone. And I mean, that's like the opposite of what church is here to do. We're here to tell people they're not alone and that they don't have to walk through a dark season without love and support and acceptance. And so if, if we're doing it even just out of, we don't know what to do with them. Well, let's learn, let's, let's go to others that do this. Yeah. So that we can provide enough direction to say, man, we understand. You're probably really really hurting. And you need people that have walked this road, and maybe that's not us. Maybe the pastor or leader is not equipped. That's okay. But if they're connected to others or ministries that. That do this, they can help be that bridge to a healing place.

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing your story, too, just of trying to find that support because. And I think it goes back to what you're saying about bringing people in to share stories. It's so important. Early on, when we were starting groups at our church and I was starting the women's groups, it was the same thing. It was so hard to get women to come to the group.

And.

And then. And then I finally got a full group with a full six women that came. And I would ask them, what made you decide to come? And most of them said, it was when I saw your face at the women's breakfast. And I didn't share full details of my story. It was just, hey, we have this group for women who have been impacted. And. And it's helped me. That's all I had to say was it's helped me. And they were like, that was enough to see a face and a person. It made it less scary, you know, that I wasn't just going to show up in this room like that woman did, and, like, what am I walking into?

Or.

I know that was part of Nick's story, too, of like, what are these people going to look like when I go to this scary room with these people? And so it is important that those of us who have found healing and can just speak on behalf of those who haven't found it yet or are too, too afraid to step out into that unknown, that we kind of be that path for them, that light that path for them. Well, this next stat makes me very sad. It says 54% of women who acknowledged they have a partner who uses porn say they are not fully recovered. What would you say to a woman who feels their marriage is stuck in this pattern and what steps can she take?

It's hard to feel recovered if someone continues to act out in their behavior because you still don't feel safe enough. It's just. It's a rut and you can't heal and you still feel violated, not cared for, whatever those things are that's going on that they feel that they can't recover. So basically, I start talking to a woman who's in that space around, what can you do to make it better for you if he's not willing to make the changes that. That you are requesting, what can you start to do to take really good care of you? So that may be talking about what? Do I need to feel calmer? Do I need to have some kind of boundary in place that if you're going to continue doing, Doing porn and I've made it clear it's not okay with me, then I am going to have to start doing these things to take good care of myself.

So.

And, and if you're working with someone, they can help you come up with really creative ideas that make sense to you, that are safe, they're not punitive, they're protective for you. And as you start to take steps to heal yourself, regardless of what your loved one is doing, then that can help you do better. It may not change anything in terms of what he is doing, but it can change your level of feeling safe in who you are and what you want to do. You're being consistent with your values. So it may be as simple as I, I just have to go talk to someone and tell them what's going on and get some help and support for myself. If you're not going to do that, I am going to do that for me because I am worth doing that of taking good care of myself, or I'm not going to pretend I'm a happy person or a happy wife. There may be some changes in the kinds of things I do within our relationship. If you're continuing to do these kinds of things that hurt me so. And that's a very individual kind of thing or process. So that's the kind of thing I really want to encourage people to have a support person to help them think through. What do you need to do to start taking care of yourself? If we're just relying on that other person to change their behaviors in order for me to feel better, that's putting a lot of weight on somebody else. And this is something that I can start to do for myself. Being in a group is a great place to do that, to start that process, getting that kind of support. The other way is if they really feel that there's not a whole lot they can do. They have young children, but they find some way of feeling strong in themselves again and, and be true to their values, even if the person they love is not doing the same thing. It's a hard process that I could talk probably about three hours about how to, how to start taking good care of yourself so that you can heal even if he does not. And it's hard. It's painful. It's a painful Process.

Yeah. I think I felt the most hopeless when I thought I didn't have choices. And so going through that process and having those support people help walk you through, like, okay, well, then what would you do if this happened? Just making sure that I had choices in all directions was what broke me out of that hopelessness. Feeling stuck. Because I'm like, it may not be the options I want, but if he chooses to engage this, there's these outcomes. And if you. He chooses not, then I have these outcomes. And. But at least I'm not just waiting for somebody. And I have heard you talk for hours on this, and it was amazing. So it was very good.

Yeah. You know, I wonder sometimes, too, if spouses get a little stuck between the extremes of, like, well, either I divorce him.

Yeah.

And if I don't feel right about that, or I don't want to take that extreme step, and sometimes the nature of relationship, that is an appropriate step, and that's very individualized. But if that's not what they're looking to do, then they feel like, well, my only other choice then is to just kind of make the best of it and act like we're okay and go along with it. And that's really the other extreme. And there's a whole lot of options in between, as Dr. Barb is saying, where you can start addressing you. You can get healthier. You can set very appropriate guardrails or boundaries around what you're willing to do with your own body or who you trust and how you trust them. And very often, this is the piece I would say that is what creates the needed friction for the offending or struggling spouse to see, like, oh, this really is hurting them. This really is damaging my marriage, and this is creating things. I don't. I don't like to see my wife angry at me or, you know, making me sleep in a different bedroom. Those. Like, that's not comfortable. And it can create that little bit of friction that says, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go to a group. I'm not gonna just try harder on my own. And. And when someone does that, very often I. I get the guy in group. It's like, if they're honest up front, they say, I'm just here to make my wife happy, or, I'm just here to try to, you know, save my marriage. And I will say to them, that's a good enough motivation right now. Like, your desire to save your marriage is a good enough motivation now. I believe if you'll stick with it, you will get to a point, you're gonna see how much growth is available to you and how good. Like, you're going to start doing it for you at some point. But if that's where you start, yeah, I'd rather have you in group for that reason than not in group at all. And. And many of those men show up because a wife says, I'm. I'm not going to keep putting up with this. Here's things I need to do to work on me and to feel safe. And if you're not willing to work along with that, then maybe I'll have to keep taking further steps. And then that little light bulb goes on and like, oh, she's serious. And I don't want to go down that path. I better get in my group too. I better face my healing story.

Yeah. And you have to be prepared to, like you said in one of the episodes, Nick, follow through with that. Because when I put a boundary in with John and say, hey, this is what I need to feel safe and I'm not going to engage in these behaviors. If you're not taking your recovery seriously, then I need to. And this, I had to learn this the hard way. Be prepared to then go do other things and have other things. Whereas before I would just kind of be like, okay, are you cha. You know, I'd just be like codependent, really. That's what I was doing. I didn't know any better back then. And as I learned and realized it's okay for me to have my own identity, my own purpose, and to say this is what I need, and then to painfully sometimes wait to see if they're gonna engage or not, you know, in that. And that's where a support group is so important.

Yep.

And I do think that a lot of times they think this has to be a drastic change, like I'm going to get a divorce or something like that. But it doesn't have to be. That can be a small step that is just showing that reality is. We're acknowledging that the reality is that this is broken. And if I try to pretend it's not broken, then I'm hurting myself and I'm hurting the person I love by not being in reality. You know, addiction recovery. If someone has gotten to a place where this is full blown addiction, you know, we know that being in reality is absolutely essential. Partners also have to be in reality. The reality is I don't feel safe and I may need do. Do some things to reflect the reality of that situation.

So good Dr. Barb we love having you on and we've been asking all of our guests this question as we wrap up today. What is one piece of advice you would like to give that you believe would help create change in this area?

Let's have good, safe communities, our faith communities, our churches that can talk about hard things, that embrace the difficulty of being human this side of heaven and that can be safe places for us to go when we get bumped and bruised. If our communities of faith could be the kinds of places that we've talked about, then I think that there would be so much less long term pain and hurt because we would be the hospital, we would be the hospital being the church and we would be the caregivers, we would be the, the prayers, we would be the the people who are wrapping up their wounds. We wouldn't be able to do all of it, but we could be that safe place when someone is going through this rather than keeping it secret and silent in shame.

So good. So good. Amen to all of that. Barb, if people wanted to keep up with you or the organization that you helped found appsats, if they wanted more information like we've been talking about today, where could our listeners go to hear more?

Well, probably just me. So it'd be drbarbarastephans.com is my my website and they can contact me through there and there there's a link also to appsats on, on my webpage.

Awesome. Well we will put that in the show notes as well. We'll link our listeners to that. Thank you again for being a part of the show, for talking about the stats and for being in beyond the porn phenomenon and really shining some light on this important topic for churches, for men, for women, for leaders. We appreciate your time today so much.

Thank you.

And to our listeners, if you are a fan of today's content and the things you're hearing, it would be mean the world to us if you would subscribe, share this episode with somebody else or write us a review. All of these are ways that other people can hear a message of hope, freedom and healing that might make a change in their story. And if you would like more information about Pure Desire, groups, resources or counseling, you can Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.

SA.