389 - Parents, Porn, and the Church w/ Sam Black (Part 8/8)

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Listener. Welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. Your biblically based and clinically informed solution to finding healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to episode 389. And today is also our final episode, part eight of eight. As we've looked at the new report from Barna, we're beyond the porn phenomenon. And today, joining me throughout this series has been my co host, Mrs. Ashley Jameson. Ashley, welcome.

Hi. I'm so happy to be here.

Yeah. We have journeyed through these conversations. We've had some excellent guests and today was no different. We got to hear from one of the experts, someone who was involved at a group we think very highly of at Covenant Eyes. He's an author and a speaker and a friend of the program and that is Mr. Sam Black. What do you think listeners are going to take from today's conversation?

I just love his practical insight about how the church can take this data and use it to create safe places. I love that we take a little bit of a dive into teens and parents. And I mean, I just always thrive on conversations about our teenagers and our parents. So I like that that came up.

Yeah, I think whether you have teens or not, whether you're a parent or youth leader, maybe you're not any of that, but I think all of us share some sense of burden that man, we've got to help the next generation. We want to help kids who are growing up do better, have better resources than we did. And I think this conversation just kind of provokes that thought from all of us, like what can we do? How can we shape our churches, our homes, our communities to be better places for our kids? And facing this issue of pornography is a big part of it. Well, we had a great time with Sam Black. I know you will appreciate hearing from him a little bit more about Sam. He is the author of a book, the Healing what churches get wrong about pornography and how to fix it. He's the director of Recovery Education at Covenant Eyes and joined their team in 2007 after 18 years as an award winning journalist. And you can hear some of that journalist in him coming out in our conversation. He has appeared on over 125 podcasts, TV and radio shows in the last year. So you know he's good at what he does. And he also has written a resource called the Porn Circuit, Understanding your brain and breaking porn habits. And you can find that on the Covenant Eyes website. Sam is a recovery coach who has been certified by the Christian Sex Addiction Specialist International, also known as csassy, because everything in the counseling world is a acronym for something. Sam is passionate about helping Christians live free from pornography because he knows that you keep what you give away. So here now is part eight of eight on our series, beyond the Porn Phenomenon with Mr. Sam Black. All right, Sam Black, welcome to the podcast and thank you for being a part of this series on the new report, beyond the Porn Phenomenon. We're glad to see you, Nick, Ashley.

It'S always fun to talk with you guys. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Me, too.

Yes, there is a lot that we can unpack. I mean, we're only going to scratch the surface on some of what came out in the report. And so, you know, we encourage everyone if these eight episodes on the report happen, haven't stirred up your thoughts and intrigue, I'm not sure what else will, but hopefully you'll grab a copy of the report and we're going to talk a little bit more today, maybe in particular for that lens for parents for teenagers and how churches can be a part of supporting what also needs to be a conversation in families. And so, Sam, let's jump in. One of the things that, as you were interviewed for the report, you said is that most churches fail to recognize that pornography undermines every ministry of the local church. I mean, that's a pretty powerful statement to say that it undermines every ministry of a local church. So unpack that a little bit for us. What do you mean by this? And how is a, you know, what we think of often as a personal sin. How is it undermining our church ministries?

Yeah, so often we like to, you know, if I, I'm just picturing a tree, if you would, and this tree, you see some beautiful leaves and branches and a trunk, but we're often missing what's maybe causing some withering among some of the branches or how healthy is that tree overall? And often to really find out how healthy that tree is is how is, how is the root system doing? And often that is below the surface where it's hard to see. And so we can kind of look out and very easily miss that something is unhealthy that a tree, our trees in life are unhealthy. So let's give some examples. We know the average age for children to first see pornography is somewhere between the ages of 8 and 11, depending on which study you're looking at, right?

Yeah.

And so we can spend all of our time focusing on helping parents and teachings, helping parents teach their kids about the faith. We can equip our children with Bible stories and memory verses, all these things. Yet if a child is being exposed to pornography at ages 8 to 12, you know, that's. That's average. So that means a lot of kids younger.

Yeah, yeah.

Than that age are also being exposed. How is that undermining that spiritual gifting for that child? How's it affecting their spiritual health? When we think about teens are the among the most prolific users of pornography. We can spend lots on pizza parties and going to concerts and all this other thing. And yet how they. What they believe about God's design for sex is being undermined by pornography. And we also know that there are the three common impacts of adults using pornography is that early exposure, the ongoing use and repetition, often during adolescence. And of course, that trauma and pain were. As adults, people are anesthetizing their emotions, regulating their moods, using pornography. And so we miss that in 56% of divorce cases, a major contributing factor to the split is one spouse's ongoing compulsive use of pornography. And so we can have marriage seminars and do all these kinds of things and. And miss how pornography is undermining all of our efforts of creating better communication between spouses. Because there's. It's like that hidden disease in the roots of that tree.

Yeah.

And it's impacting everything else, even in Christian life, even in our very. You know, several studies have shown how ongoing use of pornography impacts scripture reading, prayer life, church attendance, whether someone will serve in a volunteer role in their church over the next six years. Direct correlations. Wow. And so if we're missing all this, even if we say, well, it looks like some Christians have become comfortable. And as the study you guys have just done just showed that many Christians feel comfortable with the amount of pornography that they use, but that keeps them going to their next stage in development of their Christian faith in their Christian service. And so would be Sunday school teachers, would be volunteers, would be people in ministry are being held back from advancing in their faith because pornography is undermining the foundations of what you're trying to support them with. Yeah, that was a long answer, right?

No, I think it's great. And it relates to what I've seen is we often look at the church and say, man, if men would rise up and if men would be the spiritual leaders in the home and in the community, it would change the world. And so sometimes our approach with that is to kind of berate men of, like, be a leader in the home and do these things and come to church, and it's like, man. Men are kind of burned by this responsibility. And then what I found is, as I was leading groups for men who wanted to find freedom from pornography was the internal messages that they were listening to that said, you know, I've. I've been disqualified. God can't use me. Many men that I've had in groups said as a teen or a college student, they felt called to ministry. But it was their sexual sin or their pornography use that they said, I. I can't pursue that. The messages of shame that say, if people knew what I was doing, they wouldn't want me there. And I just began to see that men were often held back not because they didn't want to take on responsibility, but it was their shame around their porn use that was keeping them on the sidelines. And as they would find freedom or health in group, suddenly they're serving more, they're attending church more, they're getting involved in leadership positions, because when that shame is gone, their hands are open to say, God, how do you want to use me? And I look back and say, that ended up becoming the most effective discipleship strategy that we ever had and we never planned for like I had. I had done a lot of other things as a pastor to try to disciple men, and I would say with minimal effectiveness. But when a man would find freedom from his sexual shame and brokenness, like he was ready for God to use him. And I just thought, man, that. That's why men are. You know, they're less often to come to church with their wife. Single men are less often, less likely to come to church than single women.

And.

And I think a lot of it revolves around the shame they feel around this sin and not being able to address it. And so you're absolutely right. It can undermine everything else because they're trapped in a cave of isolation that they can't get out of until someone invites them to that place of healing and freedom.

Yeah.

And, Nick, you just spoke a lot about how it's impacting men. But, Ashley, we've also seen from 2016 to the current study here in 2024, from a third of women struggling with pornography to now more than 40% of women who watching pornography in some level, and we've seen this at Covenant Eyes, how much pornography is impacting women.

Yeah, well, and I love what you highlighted a lot about. Yeah, maybe we are saying that we feel comfortable with it as Christians, comfortable with our use, which is not good. But maybe we are saying that. But you Highlighted, but the negative is it's keeping them from growing and going anywhere. And that was my experience as a teenager because at 15, 15 to 16, I struggled sexually. I experienced a rape. I just had all these things. And I got plugged back into Church at 16 and I was like, yes, this is where I want to be. These are my people. I was a worship leader for the kids. I served in Awana. I was a camp counselor, you, youth group, all the things, all church for a whole year. It's like, this is my new life, this is my new identity. And then it was this, the sermon on sexual purity that the shame just, it was if you're sexually pure and it was all or nothing. And so I felt disqualified from God's best. I would have ranked myself even at that time, saying, I'm comfortable with my sexuality because I wasn't doing anything in that moment. But the shame that was given to me in that message unintentionally was unintentional. Put me back out into the world because I was like, I can't. I'm not like these people. I'm looking around at this audience of other teenagers thinking they are all this message is for them. I am like black. I'm like, well, I am a black person, but I am like black soul, not pure. You know, not this clean virgin that my pastor's talking about. And so I, I disqualified myself from that based off the, the interpretation of the message that I heard. And then I didn't get back into church until I was an 18 year old pregnant with twins, you know, and then I was like, oh, I don't want to raise my babies out of church. And that's what brought me back. But you, it did disqualify, like, I disqualified myself because of my sexual history from ministry. So yes, yes, I'm glad you highlighted that. Okay. You were quoted in the report saying churches need a safe place and a safe process that leads to healing and repentance. What does it look like for a church to be a safe place with a safe process?

Right. You know, one of the beautiful things about pure desire and its tools is one, it sets up a space for that kind of conversation, those kind of conversations, that kind of safety to happen in the first place. And, and part of having a safe place is having a safe process. The two kind of go hand in hand. Now you can begin creating safety in a church, but if you don't have the process and some sort of process in place, a guidebook in place, there's going to be Some misinterpretation. So it helps to spell this out, and here's why. You know, in. In the foundational principle of the Christian faith is confess our sins to one another and pray for one another that we may be healed. Right. And Nick, you and I have had this conversation a few times. And on those small churches, it's often very hard for people to say, hey, I can be really honest and open in my church. I hear pastors tell me this on a regular basis. You know, because we all know each other and because we know each other so well, it's hard to be honest. Yeah. But that is the very opposite of what's true. If, if we know each other well enough, if we're open well enough with each other, then we can be totally open and honest and. And vulnerable with each other because we truly love one another and care for one another and want to see each other succeed. So it's not being known that's the problem. We're not known enough.

Yeah.

And then you go to a large church, a megachurch, and I hear people come up to me and they say, hey, Sam, I know you work for Covenant Eyes, but I've been looking for an all who received my Covenant Eyes reports. And this church is just so big, I don't know of anybody that I can really be that vulnerable with. So it's not the size of the church that's the problem. We have to ask ourselves, what part of James 5:16 do we not believe? Yeah. And if we want to create that kind of atmosphere in our church, we need to create safe spaces, but we need to lead that. And part of that comes from a culture. Are you creating culture in your church that allows that kind of vulnerability? And if it's just the pure desire guy at the volunteer coming in and say, hey, I'm going to lead a group and pastor, will you support them, support us in that? And he says, oh yeah, you guys go ahead and do whatever you want to do. Oh yeah, you ladies go ahead, do what you. What you need to do. And you have our blessing, but it's not a missional part of the church. It's not intentional. And so permission is given, but it's not become part of the fabric of the church. And so what we need to do, if we want to create safe places to say from our leadership top down, saying this is what we're doing, because that volunteer is going to hit a ceiling and they're only going to be able to impact the culture of the church so much. So we need the leadership of the church to also say we are intentional about creating vulnerable spaces in our church where we can be open, open and honest and clear about how the enemy is attacking us and how what struggles we have that are impacting our lives and our families and our relationship with God. And together those things with a safe process, with a safe place that is being created by the leadership, that leadership is saying, this is important, we need to do this. And without those things together, it's hard to create safe places. You might get pockets, you might get a very mission minded person that that creates that space. That was actually true in my case, my wife, I wasn't actually, I was a little like you. I came back to church a little bit mainly because my wife says, hey, there's this marriage class going on and I would love for you to attend with me. Would you go with me? Because she'd been attending church by herself with our babies and, and I knew our church, our marriage needed help. But I walked in that classroom and those facilitators closed that door and they said, this is a safe place. What is said here stays here. And when that atmosphere, I mean, people were honest and vulnerable about the terrible things that they were saying to their spouse and the things they thought and did and the mistakes they made. And that was where I also learned pornography could be compulsive and addictive. And that was a great relief. Suddenly I could be open and honest with someone else about my struggle and with that man. That's where freedom, that's where connection began to happen. It wasn't though something that permeated our whole church. It was an enclave. And we just were very fortunate to have some 12 steppers who knew what they were doing. And when they left and went to another state to be near their grandkids, that class shriveled up like a raisin and was dust within a year because they didn't understand what a safe process looked like. And so we need all those pieces, parts together.

Yeah, I love how you say that, Sam. The two really go hand in glove. And I think we've seen it pure desire, when churches have one or the other, that it's just not going to be effective. That you could have a staff or a team working really hard to make their church, church a safe place. And you know, you're, you're accepted here, we want to help you. And so people maybe come forward, but then the groups they have in place might be really performance based, kind of sin management focused, or maybe there's just really no Group structure, and people kind of come in and out, and no one's really being honest or being called to task, and they're just kind of fumbling along. Well, someone might have found a safe place and tried to find a process, but it went nowhere. And that. That doesn't help people, and vice versa. We've had churches that have really effective groups meeting because there's a passionate volunteer who has a vision, but nobody knows about it. Like, the church won't talk about it. It's like the secret black sheep ministry that meets in the basement. And you have to be a private investigator to even find out how to get in the group. And so maybe you have a great safe process, but no one knows it's a safe place. But when you have both, when it's being promoted as part of, like you say, the fabric of the church, and there's a structure in place that really supports people moving towards healing, that's truly dynamite. And it's the kind of thing we're hoping this report produces. Is churches asking that question, how can we do that? How can we become that place? How can we have that process? Because I think you're right also that we have a little bit of a Goldilocks syndrome in churches of, well, we're too big and we're too small, and nobody thinks our church is just right. We've all got reasons not to. And I think if we could face those, we could find there's actually some steps we could take to implement something. And I know we'll talk about that a little more by the end of the episode.

I think your example of the room that, you know, the door shut, it's like, what would happen if you didn't have that safe place? What if you came to church and just felt more shame? Then who knows how long it would have taken for you to come back. And just as leaders and church, if, you know, if you are a church staff member or leader, that providing as many of these opportunities that can be a safe bridge for people to come back and feel safe in the presence of other Christians is not just an isolated event. It impacts whole families and it impacts whole generations of bringing people back. So I just, I love that you shared that experience of yours, Ashley.

I think you really hit on something there, that it was winsome. It was. It was attractive to enter a safe place. And I think so often in our churches, we think that if we have that kind of vulnerability, if we talk about difficult topics, then people will want to pull away, that they. That's Just not what we do.

Right.

Our respectable church. Right. And we have a world that's crying out for hope and healing. Yeah. And we just need to create opportunities for that. When we do, we create. Oh, it's so. It's magnetic.

Yeah.

You want to run toward it.

Well, Sam, let's talk about some of the stats of things that are happening for our young people. In the report, young adults were asked, this is people ages 18 to 37 about sending nude images. And 55% said that they have sent a nude image and 74% said that said they have received a nude image. And I imagine if we could legally ask teens this question, which I found out we can't because it would involve self incrimination and there's laws protecting that. But I imagine if we ask teens, the number might be even higher. And I'm curious for your perspective and what's shifted or changed in our culture that something that is seemingly such a private issue, you know, the idea that I'm going to take a picture and if we were in the old days, like a Polaroid, I have a naked picture of myself and I'm going to hand it to someone else, like I lose all control over that. And yet that's happening in a majority of people's lives. Why do you think that's become so common?

Yeah, well, you just hit something there that's very, very insightful. You said Polaroid. And for those who don't know what a Polaroid is, that's one of those instant cameras. Back in the day, I remember going to a Christmas party at my grandmother's house and my aunt had a Polaroid and she took a picture and then she began shaking.

Yeah.

Came out. Right. And so it processed right on the spot. And so when we say Polaroid, that's what if people were doing things like that, they weren't sending pictures, rolls of film to their developer at their Kodak. Oh man, we're really dating ourselves here. Right. Processing facility. It was. You just said the Polaroid because it was something shameful enough you didn't want shared. Right. Since two, you know, and we've seen this migration over time from, you know, the 70s and where you had to go to a porn store to the 80s where it began, VHS rental, family rental, video places, or had a back room where people rented pornographic videos. You could go to your convenience store and buy magazines, etc. And then we had the Internet in the 90s and then in 2007 we had the iPhone and now we're placing these iPhones in the hands of children. Not only just if. Even if they didn't give them to them right away as their own device, parents were definitely giving them to just to placate them for a while. That child wanted to see that phone all the time, anytime. I can't tell you the number of parents I've spoken to who said, my child's first exposure to pornography happened on my watch, in my living room, in my kitchen, in the backseat of my car, where I handed my device over the back seat so they could play a game. And a cousin or the individual says, hey, look this up. And they're searching for something inappropriate. And that's the first time they see pornography. Right. With the parent in the room or in the car. And that's just crazy, isn't it?

Yeah.

And so we know. I mean, studies back from the 80s and 90s showed the following exposure to pornography for prolonged periods, especially an exaggerated perception of sexual activity in society, diminished trust between intimate partners, the abandonment of hope of sexual monogamy, belief that promiscuity is the natural state, belief that abstinence and sexual inactivity are unhealthy, cynicism about love or the need for affection between sexual partners, belief that marriage is sexually confining, lack of attraction to family and child raising. And the list just kind of went on and on. And so we have literally created a culture that has become desensitized. And so the idea of, hey, my boyfriend wants me to share a. A nude photo with him would have been unthinkable for decades prior. But now, because children have seen so much pornography, it has become so pervasive in our culture. Boys and girls are becoming under so much pressure to do such things that has become normalized. They've heard their friends have done that. And so it is. We didn't get here overnight. Right. And so it's going to take a lot of conversations in the church and from parents to their kids to help insulate them for the future. What I found interesting was in the, in the recent Barna study, was that Generation Z is less likely to engage with pornography or think pornography is not a good thing then even millennials or Xers or boomers, which was interesting. Pretty amazing. They're recognizing this is damaging. I don't think it was more than boomers. It was more. They were more resonant about it than Xers and Gen X or Millennials and Gen X. Yeah.

What seems to have happened is we have so normalized the whole area of sexuality while not normalizing the conversations of what is health, what is good, what creates long term, you know, relationship stability. And so people are just entering into something that seems common around them and we've really lost, I think, a sense of what is sacred, what is holy about, you know, sharing my body only with someone in the safe commitment of a marriage. What, what is special that I would reserve for that intimate relationship versus sharing anything about myself because I buy into that idea that I am just kind of an object to be shared and consumed as are other people versus seeing how our bodies and souls and minds are all connected and that that is a sacred trust that God has given us. And so we're in a day and age where I do think the pendulum has swung so far towards permissiveness and anything goes, that maybe that's what we're seeing. A hopeful sign in Gen Z that's being raised by parents are starting to say, wait a minute, some of this is not healthy, some of this is actually very damaging. And, and maybe Gen Z is getting a little bit of that or seeing it for themselves. And I do hope we will see that continue to grow of we have, we have really gotten lost or caught up in a culture that just has said anything goes and now we're seeing the negative effects of that.

Yeah, and it's so embedded. I mean, as parents and pastors and church leaders, we have, we have to be talking about this regularly because it is everywhere. And like most of us know, back in the day, I mean, I think my first exposure to an actual pornography magazine was under a bridge, like in a pile of homeless person stuff, you know, and it, but now it just finds you, like you're saying, in the backseat of a car. And I was even curious about what, you know, the YouTube, like video game, you know, video game stuff for little boys and teenagers. And so I watched through one of my son's gamer guys that he likes to watch and there was nothing sexual on the screen. It was just a video of like Minecraft type looking blocks, you know, very innocent looking. But I listened to the whole audio of it and the whole time he's just doing this building stuff. He is telling a story of this girl he dated and going into this whole narrative and I'm like, he just verbally described a scene straight out of a pornography while just playing this Minecraft video. But I would have never seen that had I, you know, like, as a parent you're like, oh, he's watching a Minecraft gamer, you know, and it's just so sneaky and calculated to reach our children and to slowly put. Just keep dropping things in their lap that you, you have to be so hyper vigilant with the, with the children and not that you can protect them from everything. And so it's a mixture of using things like Covenant Eyes and I have YouTube blocked on my TVs completely and, but also just constant conversations with them and asking them what, what they're hearing at school and, and having conversations all the time with your kids. With your kids. And same for the church because we're just over overexposed. Well, this, this next discrepancy I wanted to bring up from the Barna report. I've personally heard this. Parents are hoping that their teenagers are learning about healthy sexuality from God's perspective, from their youth pastors, from their youth leaders. When youth leaders were surveyed, where should a teen learn about sex? 89% said dad, 88% said mom. So pretty close there. 62% said church or pastor. But when asked where teens actually are learning about sex, only 3% said they're learning from dad, 4% said mom, and 1% from the church. So why do you think there's such a huge discrepancy between the ideal and what's actually happening?

You know, it's probably a big reason why we were doing so well with our trainings at homeschool conferences back in 2019. I'm just going back a few years here, but I led a team. We went to 27 of those kinds of events. And we would find that parents would come to our sessions, and often they were held in these big ballrooms, and the ballrooms would be full. There'd be people lined up alongside the walls, and they would often bring their kids with them. And they were wanting to learn about how pornography is impacting their home, their family, their children. And that was maybe surprising. Would be a. Surprising to a lot of pastors and ministry leaders who are listening. Right. Because we fear having these conversations in the church that that might turn off those in our congregations, especially our older families or our grandparents. Right. And what I have found so fascinating is that when I go to a church and I'm speaking on this issue in front of the whole congregation, grandparents are among my most biggest champions. I mean, they recognize how our sexualized culture is coming after their grandchildren, and they want to help support. So in the healing church, what churches get wrong about pornography and how to fix it, that's. And you can, you can receive a. Learn more about that book@thehealingchurch.com or this is the Covenant Eyes Website resources page and learn more about how to get that book. But in that, I dedicate a full chapter to really helping ministry leaders understand how the church must play a role in addressing these kinds of topics. Because parents don't really know what to do or they're busy. They feel like they've got to many things going on and they're looking for answers, but they're not finding them often. And they don't really know how to have this conversation necessarily because their parents didn't have this conversation with them. And so this. It's sort of almost a generational curse where we can't talk to our kids about God's design for sex and sexuality. And so what I often see is that parents will begin to. Will wait until they think their child is old enough to talk about sex. And that's usually in their teen years. And because parents haven't. The child hasn't been accustomed to having these kind of conversations or feel that there's a shame built around this kind of conversation with their parents. Their parent brings up the idea of pornography or sexuality and all these other things, and. And the teenager gets embarrassed, then the parent gets embarrassed, and the whole thing comes to a screeching halt. It goes nowhere. Right. And so what we need to do is, as the church is, help equip our parents to have these conversations and begin those conversations very early on. When kids are old enough to talk, they should know the correct names for their body parts. Right. We don't need to begin calling them nicknames and hiding all this and creating this false shame about what God created as her sexuality and God's intent for our sexuality. And so when we equip parents and teens to have these kind of conversations or. Let me, let me step back a minute. When we equip parents to have these conversations with their. With their children or throughout elementary school and into middle school and into their teen years. Now, teens who have been used to having this conversation, middle school students who have been used to having this conversation since childhood are much more adept, much more open to having this conversation ongoing with their parents. But if that conversation isn't happening early, it's really hard to get started in the teen years.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I think you're spot on, Sam, that parents don't feel equipped. They didn't see it modeled for them. They don't really have many opportunities from their church or the Christian community to learn about godly sexuality and how to talk with their kids. And so we just put off conversations and we hope our kids are Learning something positive, maybe at youth group or at school. And the truth is we're missing those opportunities to just start the conversation and get a little bit of training from places like Covenant Eyes and Pure Desire so that we are equipped because otherwise our kids are learning somewhere else.

And the team at Pure Desire has a brand new book on this. Right.

We have resources for parents.

Well, and we're turning it into a. We have a parent training course that is depending on when this podcast comes out, is about to be released or has just been released to try to help create that culture. And you know, I was going to say, I hear a lot of parents that say, well, I'm worried about, I don't want to say too much too soon. And I've always said back, like your kids are going to hear something that's too much too soon from somewhere. Wouldn't you prefer that it's you. Wouldn't you prefer that the first time they hear the word pornography and have someone describe it, that it's you, not their friend or someone at the on the playground? Because if they're not ready for it and that information comes from a loving, trusted source like mom and dad, they're like, okay, I don't really understand what they just said, but sounds like there's something that I should maybe learn about later. And I think it just kind of goes right past them when they hear about it in an unsafe way, like through a friend or an exposure online. Like that has a way of grabbing hold in a shame kind of secrecy way that propels them to find out more and more and more versus a parent. That's the safe place. So I've tried to help parents be able to take that deep breath and say, if you're doing it out of love and to try to help them, I don't think you can say too much too soon because you're helping them create the framework and whatever they're not ready for, it'll just kind of go off of them until they are ready for it.

That seems to be one of the biggest fears. And I've always said, you know, start talking with your kids on a regular basis about what happened, you know, when you were their age. So I remember experiences from when I was 8 years old, my first sleepover, or when I was 10 years old or on the sports team or, you know, all these things. And then maybe like shave off two years. You know, it's like, okay, so maybe you should be talking to your kids about that. But we were at a con, we were at The Life conference in Florida. And we had a thousand kids between two of our sessions about God and sex. And we had asked them, how many of you hear about sexuality from your parents? Hardly any hands went up and it's, and we said, well, how many hear from your friends or school? And every, you know, hand in the room went up. And so to Nick's point of they are going to hear about it from somewhere or see it. And so to be the first person to introduce it is scary and it might make you blush, but it's, it's going to be okay.

Here are the five myths that I typically hear from parents. And one is my kid is a good kid. Yeah. And they, they wouldn't do that because we go to church. They would never look at pornography if someone showed them pornography. They just wouldn't do that because they're such good kids and our kids are good kids, you know, and we love them and we know that they're good kids. Number two, if my child saw it, he or she would just look away. It wouldn't have, it wouldn't impact their brain like we know it, would it, they wouldn't have curiosity like I was curious at 10 years old when I first saw pornography. We miss how impactful it is on that young child's brain and how that child's brain is underdeveloped. There's a lot more to go in there. We don't have time for that. But number three, the measures I have in place are good enough. And that typically means that parents are looking over their kids shoulder, especially their elementary kids shoulders, just to see what, you know, occasionally what they're looking at. They're not really using any software that really helps monitor how the device is being used and receiving ongoing opportunities to create discussions in a culture that's always going after them. Number four, boys are the only ones who struggle. I don't need to worry about my girls. I cannot tell you the number of girls who, who, especially teen girls who when we were at, going at these events, who will circle our table and they'll keep coming, going around and around that you've seen this at Pure Desire events as well. I know you have. And then they'll finally build up the courage and my mom and dad don't know that I've been struggling with pornography since I was 8 or 9 years old.

Old.

And you know, we, we're seeing more and more of this number, this is number five. This is what I always call the bonus is parents believe the myth that if I talk about pornography or sex, then I'll just make my child curious and they'll go seek it out. And the opposite has been proven true over and over again. I cannot think of any professional or any counselors, any folks like you who have. When you provide meaningful information, you actually move more of that curiosity. They have a safe place to talk about their temptations. They have a safe place to talk about their curiosities. And you're actually removing that curiosity rather than contributing to it.

Yeah, I believe that.

Yep. And I, you know, I would just echo that. I remember I was sitting with my youngest son at the time. He was 10 or 11, and he had heard a number that was associated, and he knew from the way it was. It was said that that number indicated something sexual. And so he's asking, dad, what does this number mean? Well, that was a pretty. I was trying to think, like, okay, age appropriate. How do I explain this sex act that he's heard about? And so I found a way to say it, and it was. I wish I had a camera. Because his. When I described it, his mouth, he's like, are you serious? Like, people do. I said, I know it makes no sense to you now, buddy. You know, one day it'll compute a little bit more. But, yeah, that's what it is describing. And he's like, oh, okay. And what I thought about the reason I'm telling this is after that conversation, I thought, what if my response had been to say, oh, we don't talk about that. You're too young. Well, now, that curiosity, it's like, wow, there's some. My dad won't even tell me what it is. And I thought, what if his response was, well, I'm going to go Google that.

Oh, gosh.

Or I'm going to go ask my friends. And I'm like, well, now I'm putting the. The need to know out to someone else. And I'm like, yeah, it was a little bit awkward. It was a little bit hard for me to find the right words, But I am so thankful I was able to answer that question and not have him go somewhere else with it, because that could have been far, far more destructive to him as a kid.

And so, yeah, such a good example.

If you had said, hey, we don't talk about things like that, then that was where shame comes in and discussion closes down.

Yeah, exactly.

Dad is no longer a safe place to go to. So if I have questions like this. I know, don't go to dad. Yeah, go to Google, Go to my friends, go to Social media, go to somewhere else, but don't go to dad because he shuts down. And I feel this internal shame, this internal. I wish I hadn't asked dad that. Now he thinks. He doesn't think well of me. I. I'm a dirty person for having these kind of. This curiosity or questions. We need to be safe as parents.

Yeah.

I always tell parents when those kind of things pop in, just pause for a minute if you need to, but always ask, well, where did you hear that?

Say, jesus, help me.

Tell me what you know. Because if that's at least gives you a baseline of where to begin. Right.

Yeah.

And it's very easy to just begin giving them too much information. And we don't want to do that either. Based on age, we know where we can proceed.

Yeah. Yeah. So good. So, Sam, let's talk a little bit about, you know, what youth pastors and youth leaders do feel is happening when they were asked, where do you think kids learn about sex from? 69% said teens learn about sex first and foremost from their friends or social media. And 56% said teens are learning about sex from pornography. Why are these such dangerous teachers for our teens? And let's add to that the next question. How can we address this large difference between what we ideally wish would happen that parents in the church could teach and the reality that it's friends, social media, and pornography that are teaching? How do we address that today?

First of all, I think this is a qualified question. Right. We're asking leaders what they think.

Yeah.

And so we need to think about that. Right. We're not. We're asking youth leaders where they think their teens are learning about sex versus we don't get to ask the team, where are you learning about this? And so there's. Based on what I hear from high school students, I think this is a real underestimation by youth leaders. I think. I think they're talk. I think kids. And. And you think about it for your own self. Did I learn about sex from my parents or did I learn about sex from my friends when I was growing up? And that was a long time ago. Right.

So now add social media to that. Yeah. And it's.

Right.

So common.

And. And social media shows sexualized media even when the child's not looking for it. Right. So, yeah, there's. We know if the average age for kids being exposed to pornography is somewhere between 8 and 11, my goodness. There's a lot more information than. Than these youth leaders might be expecting. There's a danger here. Right. Because we know from our own experiences one of the most formative reasons that adults struggle with pornography was the early exposure and the ongoing use and repetition adolescence. So that, that early exposure is a, and, and, and how we think about sex is constantly being piped through through a sexualized culture mentality, then yes, that's a dangerous thing. It's having an impact because it's, there's unrealistic expectations in pornography and our, our sexualized media in general. We know that that reprograms the arousal template of what we find attractive. Why we seek out a certain person. All or not. What's staggering is almost all the studies showing is that Gen Z is having less sex than any other generation before them. And that's not that they're. But meanwhile we have more proliferation of pornography. So they're waiting longer to get married.

They have, they're more lonely and skyrocketing erectile dysfunction among our 20 year olds.

Right. I was coaching a married man recently. Didn't realize how, you know, hey, I'm, I'm young, I, I'm a marathon runner, I, everything should be okay. And for some reasons not. And I didn't realize how pornography had impacted me until I began doing this study. Yeah, yeah, I didn't realize that. Yes. And so after periods of time of resetting his brain and resetting his template, then okay, yeah, this really was. Pornography has been such an impact, had more impact on my life than I ever imagined it could have.

Yeah, it impacts every area and I think that's a good, I mean physically every area and also emotionally, relationally, every area. We don't see the undercurrent this has. I think that's a good lead into our next question. I've been wanting to say this. The survey says when a porn user has someone helping them avoid porn, they report more purpose in life, feeling deeply cared for and more prepared for everyday life. Why does a support person, an ally, have so much positive impact on our life? Because that's really what you were helping with that man with. I mean, you were being an ally.

You know, this is a phrase that you guys say over and over again. So I'm not going to say anything that you don't say all the time, but we were wounded in relationships and we heal in relationships. Right. And so one of the big reasons people are so attracted to pornography and pushing pornography is it's a form of self soothing. Whether we could be choosing alcohol or drugs or something else as well or exclusively. But pornography specifically has, and sex has become A means to, to escape my emotions. And that's the size, my moods and figure out how to cope with my life. Because I don't like coping with these things. If I've had a bad day at work, if I feel like I'm. My lack of, my feelings of lack of self worth are too exaggerated. I have to find a way to soothe those. And so, so often pornography and sex is simply an escape from what we're struggling with. And if, if we can release those emotions and work through those wounds with someone else, then that connectivity really empowers us to, to greater heights. You know, when I, nick, I can come to you and I say, man, I've been, I've been struggling. This is what I've been going. This has been going on since I was an elementary school kid. And I've been, I'm fighting this, but I'm losing my battle. This is what's going on. And I expect you to reject me and tell me what a rotten Christian I am and that if I would just love God more and do better and be more faithful, then, then maybe I could be accepted. But instead you look at me and say, sam, man, let me take you on a journey. Let's. Let's walk here. Because what you're, how you're struggling is not unique. You are not the only one.

Yeah.

And God loves you right where you are right now and wants wholeness for you. Not just to get rid of this pornography, but to live in his full wholeness. Would you like to take a journey like that, man? Now I'm empowered. I. I have hope. I have a belief that maybe I don't have to be main stuck in this situation anymore. I can live and, wow, greater than I ever thought I could. That is a big deal. It empowers people to be able to make better choices, lean into their faith and grow.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I was thinking about this and the previous question of, like, that huge discrepancy between where we think kids should learn about pornography or sex and where they are learning about sexual. And the two words that come to mind are rupture and repair. And, you know, throughout scripture, we see this pattern of there's rupture, there's sin, there's something that goes wrong. There's people that run astray from God. Adam and Eve sin in the garden. The people of Israel, you know, leave God and abandon him. David commits his sin with Bathsheba. There's, there's the rupture, but in those stories, then there's the Repair of God coming to Adam and Eve and yes, confronting them, but also then covering over their nakedness with the skin of an animal. There's God bringing the people of Israel back to him. There's God bringing repentance and healing to David through the prophet Nathan. And so that, that rupture and repair is, is part of, I think, a healthy life and of growing in maturity. And what so often happens for our young people when there's not an ally, when there's not a parent who's safe to talk to or a church that's able to address this, is they're experiencing rupture after rupture after rupture, failure, sin, shame, guilt. And it just. The rupture keeps happening without that safe place of repair. And I think that's what we're, what we're longing for and what we hope this study helps create and what we're so thankful for. Covenant Eyes creating. You know, I love you've changed the, the language. I really say an ally, a partner in this. Not just, you know, someone holding you accountable and kind of this looking over your shoulder way, but like, who's on your side. And I think that creates that, that repair.

An ally knows your goals. They want to see you succeed. They, they know where you, where you falter because you're having honest conversations. Right. That ally experience is a big deal. And while we're talking about that, as since we've been talking a lot about parents, is you're becoming an ally for your child.

Yes.

Yes.

Because you want to see this, them succeed. You don't want to see them pulled off and, and pulled astray. One things I tell parents specifically, never shame your child over pornography. Shaming will only teach them how to hide better. You can never shame a child into feeling so bad about what they've done or what they've seen that they'll never go back. In fact, the opposite happens now. They just become better hiders. And as we talked about that adult who's empowered to make better choices because they've had a safe place to be vulnerable and honest and grow. Well, you get to be that for your child. You get to be that person that says, I love you just like you are. Jesus loved you just where you are and you should have never been exposed to that. And, and let me just say I'm sorry if I didn't have this conversation with you earlier because I should have told you. I should have warned you. But I want you to know that's my fault. I should have protected you. Better from that man. That's hard for a lot of parents to do because they just think their kid should be a good kid. But if you haven't had these conversations with your child and they've been exposed to pornography and they come to you, probably one of the biggest things that you can do to support them and empower them is to say, hey, I want you to know I'm sorry. I should have had this conversation with you beforehand and prepared you for this day that you would see pornography. And I just want you to know you are loved. You're okay. We're going to work through this together.

So good.

I like what you said, Nick, about the rupture and repair. And even what you're saying, Sam, is that I have four kids. Two of them volunteer everything to me and mom, this happened. And mom, look at this video and listen to this recording of this girl. And. And the other two, I have to go after them. And so what you're saying. And with the rupture and repair, I have two kids that don't always come to me after their own rupture of something. And so being a parent or a leader that's constantly offering the repair, even though they haven't come to you and just offering that redemptive story and offering to the. The things we say to them to help lower shame. And I know that most people struggle with this, according to the report. So I just want you to know if that's you, here's how God really feels about you, and here's ways that I've experienced that. And so just we have to put it out there for those that are not ready to come to us either.

So. Good. Ashley. You know, another thing I think it's really important is we can put on a calendar things that we know we need to talk about, because if we're just waiting for this to come to.

Us, there will never be a perfect time.

There will never be a perfect time. Right. So I really encourage parents at least monthly or every other month.

Sure.

You actually write down on a calendar a topic that you would like to talk about with your child, especially around sexual purity and sexuality in general. And that allows you to prepare for that. So you're coming into that conversation with some knowledge and make it comfortable. Bring a frozen Coke or whatever it is that they like and enjoy just to take down the whole tone of the seriousness of worrisome and make it more comfortable for them. And if they raise up questions that you don't know the answer to, that's okay. You don't have to have all the answers right there. You can say, you know, I don't know. By the way, it's a great way to win points with your teens, right. To say, I don't know, but I'm willing to find out. Right?

Yeah.

Actually, you know this, right?

And gives you the opportunity to come back and talk further, to talk again. So that's a great statement. I don't know, but I'll come back.

It's like a verbal leave back. Yes.

Well, Sam, this is awesome. We want to wrap up by asking a question we've been asking all our guests. And you know, you're the ultimate, the penultimate guest, the last one. So no pressure, but we've been asking everyone what is, as we wrap up, what is one piece of advice you would like to leave our listeners with that you believe would create positive change in this area?

I truly believe that knowledge precedes understanding and understanding precedes change. If we don't know enough about the topic, we can never really help create the understanding and change that we want to see. So build your knowledge set. One of the easy things that Covenant Eyes does is creates these short courses that are very easy to digest and there's audio versions of it and they're all free. And you can find them in the Victory app by Covenant Eyes. You download that to your phone or your tablet. And the Victory app by Covenant Eyes really allows you to understand how do I need to have these conversations with my child or I am a spouse who's feeling betrayed by my spouse's pornography use. How can I address this? Well, I've been struggling with pornography since I was a kid. How did I get here? Why do I seem to stay stuck? How can I take meaningful steps toward freedom? 40 courses in there. They're all free. The Victory app by Covenant Eyes.

Great.

Yeah, I love that. Build your knowledge leads to understanding. Understanding can lead to empathy and connection and to change. And yeah, we'll put the Victory app in the show notes and make sure people have that opportunity. Sam, tell our listeners how else could they connect with you? How could they connect with, with Covenant Eyes? Where would you direct people who want to learn more and stay current with you guys?

Well, you can connect directly with me at sam black, covenant eyes.com and of course on our website, covenant eyes.com you're going to find tons of resources including the healing Church, what churches get wrong about pornography and how to fix them. How to fix it. We also have a brand new program for women called Arise Check that out. And it is a 21 day course just for women, helping them understand again, how did I get here? Why do I seem to stay stuck? And how can I live in freedom? I'll give you a link to that as well.

Yeah, well that's awesome. And we'll put all that in the show. Notes Sam, we're big fans of you and of Covenant Eyes. We know that many of our listeners are familiar with what Covenant Eyes does, but if you're not listener, it is a resource and a group that we believe in wholeheartedly and we'd love to have you connect with them. And if you, if you haven't yet, go to PureDesire.org you can get a copy of beyond the Porn Phenomenon and get all these stats, wrestle with this data, have more conversations, take it to your church or your pastor and just say, how could we be a part of being an answer to this problem? How could we be part of the solution? And that's really what this series has been about. And so thank you for tuning in. If you're a fan of this content of our conversation today, please subscribe, share it with somebody and write us a review that helps other people hear this message that could lead them to hope, freedom and healing. And if you want more information about Pure Desire, groups, resources or counseling, you can Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.

Sam.