390 - Navigating Relational Stress During The Holidays

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Hello there, good listener. Welcome to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to finding healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. I'm your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to episode 390 of the Pure Desire Podcast. Today is a special episode. If you are listening to it on or near the day, it comes out. Merry Christmas to you from all of us at the Pure Desire family, to you and to yours. I hope this is a wonderful celebration and that you really are able to personally experience the hope and the wonder and joy of Christ who came to be with us and share the Father's love into our world and into our hearts. And if you're listening to this at a time other than Christmas, the topic today, I think is so valuable for all of us because in recovery, we're going to hit times where we go on vacation, we go on a trip, we're with our family or our spouse's family. And many of those routines that we rely on for health sobriety, for our recovery strategies can get changed. Some things go out the window because everything's different on a trip or around a holiday. And so today we had a conversation together. It's why I don't have a co host, because I feel like I had two co hosts with Robert and Rebecca Vandermeer. Robert and Rebecca have been a part of the Pure Desire clinical team for almost a decade, and prior to that, they traveled around Latin America helping couples and individuals in the area of sexual addiction and teaching people about the principles of pure desire. And so they have been helping couples and individuals in this area for a long, long time. And I had a conversation with them today on how do we navigate the stress that comes into relationships, particularly during holidays. And so beyond the Hallmark movies and the eggnog lattes, there's a reality that under the surface, we may be dealing with some difficult things in our recovery areas where we're triggered and. And walking into those experiences in the holidays might hit us unaware if we haven't thought ahead. And so, again, whether you're listening or tuning in for this episode around Christmas or you've caught this episode as part of, you know, maybe you're trying to listen to all the Pure Desire podcasts. Kudos to you. A shout out to everyone who's listened to all 390 episodes at any time of year. I think we need help thinking through navigating relationships when some of the routines or rhythms that we've relied on change. And that is maybe Nowhere felt more strongly than around the Christmas holiday. So I hope today's conversation helps you to process your own story and to have the best possible experience with your family and people you love as we navigate holidays. So here is our conversation with Robert and Rebecca Vandermeer on handling relational stress during the holidays. Robert and Rebecca Vandermeer, welcome back. Good to have you on the podcast again.

Great to be here.

Thanks.

Really awesome to be here.

Yeah, I've really been looking forward to this conversation. I think so many people in recovery encounter challenges around the holidays in their relationships, in sobriety. And I know you guys, as a team, working together on our clinical team, have worked with a lot of couples both going into vacations or Christmas holidays. And you've gotten to talk to a lot of those couples after they've had experiences. And so we really want to glean from your insights of what's happening in the counseling office and how you've worked with couples to navigate these challenges and knowing that you've had your own recovery story and probably had to walk through some of these issues as a couple yourself. Just looking forward to hearing some of those stories. So let's jump in. You know, the holiday season for a variety of reasons and really a lot of holidays can have these issues as well. They create stress in our relationships, whether it's marriage, parenting, with the in laws, relatives, you name it. So would you say, is this a common thing? Like, because often we can struggle with like, why are we having this problem? And we think it's just us, but would you say that it's common for relationships to hit snags during the holiday season? And, and if so, why is it so common?

Yeah, I mean, I think that like what we're describing is really kind of the idea of a high risk scenario, right. That like holidays represent high risk scenarios. And I think that most of the high risk scenarios that we face in, in recovery and in relationship have some common, I don't know, factors like a change in schedule. Right. Travel, time off, free time. So not just time off, but like unaccounted for time. Right. A change in exercise, a change in diet, a change, maybe even in alcohol consumption.

Right.

I mean there's like all of those things by themselves create high risk scenarios. Right. In recovery and relationship. And like that pretty much just described the holiday season. Right. And so, yeah, I think that that like the idea of a high risk scenario definitely applies to the holidays.

Yeah, I think a lot of what I hear you saying too relates to our expectations. We have the Expectations around the ideal. The ideal vacation, the ideal Christmas, the ideal family get together and our society and even in the church in some ways present those ideals of the, you know, the family gathered around the table and praying or whatever's kind of meaningful. And then we see our family as, you know, we can't even get people to sit at the table and people are arguing or they're in the other room watching football. And then in those expectations that aren't met, what I hear happening a lot, too, will be the shame messages come back of, well, what's wrong with my family or what's wrong with my parenting or what's wrong with my marriage or what's wrong with me that I'm not enjoying this or that I'm feeling triggered. And so rather than being fully engaged in what is happen, we're getting caught in that scenario of the expectations not being met. And because it's not ideal, starting to listen to some of those internal messages that shame, condemn, criticize ourselves in ways that doesn't help when we're already battling some of that.

Yeah. Which means it's important that we normalize. Right. Or validate where we're at. Like, we're not. To all your points, that we're not the only ones facing these challenges or the struggles. I think all of us, even for those of us that are well ahead, in a sense, in recovery, like, we all still have to validate and remind ourselves we're not alone, we're not the only ones dealing with this. And so, yeah, I think it's important to. To remember that.

Yeah, yeah, no, that I think that's really good. Just to be able to say, all right, like, we're going into an identified high risk scenario. Like, and all of us are like, it's. It's not just high risk because I'm so messed up or because we're so messed up. It's like, no, this is high risk for everybody. Ye. Yeah. And to acknowledge that to yourself, to each other, to other people that you're in, you know, recovery and community with. Yeah.

And I think that's a big point of doing this episode like we are, you know, right before the Christmas holiday to say this is common. Like, relationships, couples have navigated this, and we hear routinely it was challenging. We had to be prepared in ways we didn't expect or we had to deal with something we didn't really anticipate coming. And when we just hear like, yeah, yeah, a lot of us have been there, I think we can take a deep breath and Go. Okay. How do we make the best of the challenges that will come and find ways to appreciate what is happening, the holiday, the gathering, the family, to find joy in those moments, even when it's maybe not some Hallmark movie ideal. So, yeah, for some of our listeners and I know couples you've worked with, the holidays or celebrations might be marred by parts of their trauma story, whether it's betrayal, something from their past that is, you know, connected to that holiday or to that event, like they remember when, or it was at a Christmas gathering or it was at your family's house that that relapse happened. I mean, there's any number of things. So how do you recommend that couples face this trauma as it comes up on the calendar?

Yeah, I love this question because this is definitely something that we touch on quite often with clients and not just are they high risk scenarios, but they're also predictable scenarios, meaning these are scenarios in which we know typically how they play out. And so with that in mind, it is important that as part of their recovery, the couple is looking at the calendar and seeing, okay, what's coming up for us, for us in the near future, in this case, holidays.

Right.

How can we work together as a team to make sure that we're being, healing, forcing each other's lives with that, with the trauma in mind? Right. So if we know we're going to be around specific people, relationships, or topics of conversation, any of these elements, it gives us a great chunk of information to then use that to work together as a team and come up with a plan as to how to navigate that moment.

Yeah. Something that you and Tracy talked about in this is a shameless plug for a summit breakout session.

Yeah. Go back and watch those.

Yeah. Is that like we, you know, we bring all of our, like, sexual expectations into our marriage, but, like, we've all had plenty of holidays prior to ever being in relationship or ever being, like, in this moment of our recovery. And so I think about, like, a friend that I went to school with in high school, his brother passed away, I think, the day before Christmas when we were in high school. Right. And like, so how, how could they ever approach Christmas without also thinking about the loss of a loved one? Right. And so now, like, we're however many years later, decades later, and, and that's still understandably going to be a part of, of what their Christmas experience is. Right. And so, like, we've got, we've got all of this stuff from our history that, whether it's family of origin or our own personal stuff.

That.

Yeah, I think just to. To take some time and. And to. If you haven't done this, to. To sit down and just really think through, like, what does this upcoming holiday mean historically? What has it meant? Right. Have I always been disappointed. I don't know, at New Year's because I felt shame? Right. Is like, Valentine's Day depressing because I'm either alone or my relationship isn't what I want it to be? Or do I always put too much emphasis on Valentine's Day to the point that we're setting ourselves up for failure? Right. I mean, to. Just to think about, like, the upcoming event holiday. And, man, what does my history tell me about this? Yeah.

That's so good. And I love what you said, Rebecca. How can we be a healing force in one another's lives? And if we're at that place in our marriage that we're able to have that conversation now, if someone's in early recovery or, you know, obviously there's marriage situations where they might be currently separated, but if you're in a place where you're starting to walk this road together for that struggle or addicted spouse to go and say, hey, I am aware that in our story, I've been a traumatizing force. I've been a wounding force because of my behaviors or relapses, and maybe some of them are connected to a holiday. And as we're changing, what does it look like for me to be a healing force in your life? What do you need from me? What do you need to see here? And just having that conversation could be powerful. And I think on the flip side of it, for that betrayed or hurting spouse to be able to say, hey, I. I know this has been part of your pattern in the past, or there was a relapse that really hurt us, what kind of support do you need from me that this holiday is different, this trip is different, this gathering is different, because I want to be aware of what you're walking through, and if something's triggering to you and we need to make a change, I want to support you. But just that mindset of how can I be a healing force? As we learn to do life differently, as we learn to do relationship differently. That's. That's such a great question.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, don't. Don't pretend, like. Like everything's just organically going to go great. Right? Like the most wonderful time of the year. Like, don't, you know, I mean, like, by going in with. With kind of a little bit of. I don't know, naivete around it. We can also set ourselves up for some challenges and so just clear communication going into it.

That's good.

Yeah, communicate, communicate, communicate. And like you said Bob, don't just expect you're going to plow through it and have no issues if, especially if it's been an issue in the past. Like we don't just magically get better. We, we work to grow, we work towards improvement and things really can go better.

Well, especially guess one last thought with that is like we also only have one shot at Christmas every year, right? So it's like if you've been married 10 years, you still only had 10 Christmases and, or, or Thanksgivings or New Year's, you know, whatever the holiday is. Like you've only, you only have one shot at that particular occasion every year. And so if you don't put a lot of planning into it, then we can't really expect it's going to be that different than the last year.

Yeah, yeah, very, very true. So one experience that many of us will have that Christmas or a holiday means seeing family, our families, maybe our in laws and for many this can surface family of origin issues. You know, we might revert back to a role in the family or we're triggered by comments that are made by family or maybe we as the spouse feel like the outsider to their. There's just all kinds of stuff that gets packed into that. So how can we prepare for these encounters with our family of origin or our spouse's family of origin in the healthiest way possible?

I love, I love this question. I think partially, partially because we've, we personally navigate this question on the regular basis Even you know, 15 years into into this process. And, and I love it because again it gives us the opportunity to not just be reactive participants to scenarios or relationships, but the opposite. It gives us the opportunity to be a proactive participant into how am I entering into this environment. If Typ know that being around my mom or my mother in law is going to be challenging, then this again is a great going back to the communication. This again is a great moment for, for Robert and I in this case. Like if we're talking about us to sit down and talk ahead of time, okay, so how, how can I do this differently than what I have done in the past? How can I, what options do I have in those moments? What has historically been my tendency and when these up then how can I do this differently? And how can my partner, my spouse support me in that and having a clear understanding and Agreement. Even on in those scenarios. This is kind of what I'm thinking of doing. This is kind of what I would help me. If you can come alongside me and would you do this with and for me during that time? And it's really, really powerful to put these plans into practice because they. They really do help so much.

Yeah. I think, like, one of the things that we recommend to our clients and also do for ourselves is just like, during, like, a dinner event that we just set a timer, timer goes off, we go into the other room and check in with each other. Right. That. It's like, we know that. That there's going to potentially be some challenges. And even if there's not, it's still great. Let's just go check in with each other in the other room. Hey, how are you doing? Like, how are you doing? I saw that, you know, in this exchange that it seemed a little like, I saw the expression on your face. Right. Just to check in. Because if we're approaching all of this with the opposite of addiction is relationship, is connection. Like, we desire to have better relationships with our families. Right. Even when there's been challenges and trauma in our family of origin, like, we still want to be present. We still want to show them love. We still want to. To be there to. To demonstrate that we do value them. And so, like, that's the goal. Right. And it's. It's easy to shift into some of, like, the. The roles of just picking apart everything everybody's doing. Right. Because that maybe helps us justify keeping a little bit of distance with them or something. But I think what's really helpful for us is this, like, actually schedule, like, during, you know, Thanksgiving dinner, like. Like, right. You know, right after we have the. I don't know, the green bean casserole, then we step into the other room and just kind of check in for a few minutes.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that may mean adjusting your schedule a little to. To take a walk, just the two of you, to find a room where no one's at, to have that time. And I think sometimes we just miss that because we're so in the flow of what everybody's doing and the family's doing, and we maybe go through a whole day or a few days, and we never really pause as a couple and say, hey, how. How are we doing? Because this is the most important relationship in our lives. And the family, yes, is important, but you're more important to me than any of them. How are we doing? How are you doing? And so thinking ahead of time. How could we do that? It occurred to me, too, that it's very challenging to go to our spouse and say, hey, here's the issues I see in you, right? Or here's the issues I see in your family. Like, that's always going to be a challenging conversation, but it's far better if we're coming on behalf of, like, ourselves and our family. And one of the questions we had to get help asking of each other was, how do I behave differently when I'm around my family? Because one of the things I noticed in that process is I couldn't see it, because to me, it was normal. It was what I did when I was with my family. But for my wife, it's like, oh, you behave very differently. Like, these things happen. And I think if you're willing to go to your spouse and just ask that question, when I'm with my family, how do I behave differently than when it's just you and I? And if they say, you know, normally, you listen to my voice. But when with your family, you always prefer what your mom says over what I say. It's like, oh, I might not even realize I was doing that. Or you go off with your brothers and it's like, I'm not even there. Oh, I didn't even thought about that. And becoming aware of what do I fall into? Because to me, it feels normal. And one of the issues I had to work through, like, I realized in our recovery process, in my family of origin, I would kind of revert to feeling like I was 12 or 13, and it was just like, well, whatever mom and dad want to do, and this is their home and their plan, and I'm here for the ride. And part of the growth was like, no, I'm a grown man. I have my own family, I have a wife, and I need to have opinions, and I need to be able to voice what our needs are. And if it's not what everyone else wants to do, that's fine. Like. Like, we are differentiated from them. And I had really lacked some self differentiation as part of my journey. And honestly, my wife was a helpful part of that to say, here's things that I see that make me feel left out or forgotten or like, I am your wife, right? Like, do I have a say in this? It's like, oh, I had to grow in that and interact with my family as a grown adult man and not become, you know, the little boy going home again. So I think if others feel that again, to just say, that's pretty normal. We. We may revert, and we may need others that. That help us see what kind of patterns we revert to in some of those situations.

Yeah. There's a tool that we use clinically called the trauma egg, and. And a portion of that is to identify roles that you've played in your family growing up. Yeah. And that's a great question, because I. I think when we first got together and got married like that Rebecca definitely noticed I was much more, like, joking and sarcastic and, you know, when I was around my siblings, and that wasn't super fun for her.

Yeah. Which. Which meant that we needed to have those uncomfortable conversations and. And be honest about it. Right. And I know that's. That can be a source of conflict for. For a lot of couples, and it's. It's understandable. However, man, if you can work through. Through that initial defensiveness or, you know, whatever buttons, come at it with a curiosity, perspective of, let me understand you better. Like, let's. Let's. Because we are a team. Right. Like, let's do this. Like, we're not against each other. I think it helps a lot to get us to working towards better understanding.

Yeah. Well, and in those situations, like always, it's not just about the behavior. There is a deeper why? Question of, well, why am I feeling like I'm 12 or 13? And for me, it was understanding. There was still a part of me that was trying to seek approval or to be a people pleaser or, you know, get some kind of affirmation from my mom and dad that it's like, oh, that's actually connected to my trauma story. And I want to be clear, like, my mom and dad were not doing anything intentional to do this. They were just being parents. And there was very good family relationships, but it was my own viewpoints that had to be addressed. And to see the why actually was helpful to keep processing our recovery and our journey together.

So, yeah, I mean, the same thing that we're having to do with our parents, our parents had to do with their parents. Right. Like, this is. It's not like it's specific to our generation or like our parents or whatever.

Right.

I mean, this is just the human experience.

Well, in some scenarios, our trauma, where we're at in recovery, the patterns of relapse that we're breaking free of might necessitate bigger changes. And so when you're working with a couple, when do you advise that they may need to change a routine, at least for now? You know, not take the trip, not go to the family gathering, not Leave town. What. When do you kind of get to that point of, hey, I think for your recovery, this year may need to be different. How do you have that conversation?

Yeah, yeah. I think one, to always start with the perspective again that better relationship is the goal and that anytime we need to create boundaries or a change in the way we approach, like a holiday season or a family gathering, it's not because we desire, like, indefinite disconnection from them. It's because we want to be able to create the space to work through where we're at at that moment so that in the future, hopefully, we can re. Engage in a more healthy way. And so, you know, if, if someone's family is too and toxic, and I use that just really in the idea that when they're around their family, they, they just have a hard time being regulated. Right? They. They're emotionally dysregulated and they, and they just can't really emotionally, like, maintain presence. Then, yeah, like, then maybe this year let's just see what we can do because they're probably working through some really difficult stuff in their own recovery and in their own personal journey. And so, yeah, like this year, at least this year, let's take a little bit of space. And if that means that you don't go to that family gathering at all, like, what we would still want is for you to communicate to your family, hey, I love you guys. Like, you know, I really value you. And I just need a little bit of space this year, like, to still be able to do it in a, in a healthy way. We don't want. We don't. We wouldn't advise that you just ghost everybody. Right, right. Like, if, if you're going to do something different, communicate it. Because I don't know, the perspective that we have of, of clients and people in group that are going through this is, man, you're doing really difficult work and you shouldn't be ashamed of the work that you're doing. Right. Like, you're, you're doing this because you passionately desire something better and so communicate that, hey, I'm working on some really challenging things now. If your family is like, too toxic to be able to communicate that too, and whatever, then, okay, maybe, you know, maybe you don't have that, that, that vulnerable type of conversation with them. But I think the biggest thing is can you navigate that and kind of maintain some emotional presence and, and if not, then come up with a different plan?

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes that means maybe just looking inward in your own family, meaning your. You and Your spouse and if you have kids and your kids and look at it, okay, what's healthier for us right now, maybe for this up season, maybe. Maybe that's what we communicate in terms of this year. We really want to just have a time, just us. We've never had that. And we realize that we need that time, you know, in whichever shape or form that that can be communicated. But. But really look at it from the perspective of this is the priority right now and we are choosing. We. Right. Like, I'm not. It's not me that I'm choosing not to be with you guys, but we are choosing to just spend this time together or maybe we'll go for a shorter amount of time and.

Yeah, yeah. And one other thing is maybe you don't stay with them. I think that's. I think that's a big thing for a lot of people is staying in the house either they grew up with or staying in the house with family. And so not only are they around those triggering relationships potentially, but also they don't have space. And so maybe as a family, it might cost a little bit more, but. But stay someplace else. Right? Create that so that you guys can still have some time at the end of the day to connect and you know, and just kind of process through and even just have fun.

Yeah.

Yep. You know, what I hear you guys saying is that we have to have the willingness to have some honest self assessment to say, can I navigate this in a healthy way, either in my relationship or for myself. And if we're at a vulnerable place right now where we're not sure if we can, it would be wisdom. Right. It would be health to say right now that's not wise for me. And as you guys are bringing up, that doesn't mean that everybody needs to know everything. You know, you don't need to communicate. Well, I just don't think I can visit you without relapsing. Like, you don't have to be that honest with family. You might just say it's been a really stressful season and we feel like this year we just need to be low key as a family. And yeah, we love you guys. We love the gathering. But for us this year we just, we're going to keep it low key and that would be great, you know, for a family. And if, if they can't receive that, that says more about them than about you. But it is creating a healthy guardrail to say, I'm going to prioritize my health and my relationship with my spouse first. And down the road, if we can include other family in that or those trips or gatherings, that's great. But if we're not ready for it, to just be able to acknowledge that and own that and not as a. I think sometimes there can be shame around that. Like, man, I'm so unhealthy, I can't even visit my parents versus saying, man, I've learned so much about what triggers me and my trauma story. I'm seeing I need some healthy space to deal with that before I enter into it as kind of a new me or in a new version of myself.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, love that.

Yeah, for sure.

Well, we encourage people. Those are hard conversations. You know, don't just announce to your spouse we're not going this year. I think go to them and say, hey, can we talk about that? And what would be healthy for us right now with where we're at, continuing to communicate about those things. For a lot of people, Christmas means vacation days, means changes to their schedule. You were bringing it up, Bob. You know, how they eat, what they drink, even maybe how you sleep or when you sleep. In addition to that, aspects like maybe your group isn't meeting over the holidays, there's more difficulty contacting a group member. There's new challenges to our guardrails that we haven't anticipated. So with all of these changes when often recovery is about relying on some routines, having some healthy disciplines. How do we navigate that when a lot of our routines are changing? How do we maintain some healthy routine during holidays?

Yeah, I think that it's really important to look at any change of routine as just that's part of your recovery. Meaning your recovery doesn't stop. Right. And you being proactive about it in terms of, okay, so since I know that some of these things will be changing, then what do I need to have in place to make sure that I am still having the self care that I need, that I'm having the accountability that I need, that I have all the boundaries in place. And for a lot of our clients and even for ourselves, we have a travel plan. Basically just, okay, these things are going to be different. Then what can I do around those areas while I am gone? Because if you just wait till you get to where you're going, then, okay, I'll figure it out, I'll make some phone calls and there. And then chances are you're setting up yourself for failure. In a sense.

Yeah. I mean, I think if we look at all of. All of creation. Right. Creation is changing in preparation for. Right. Like like, geese aren't migrating out of fear, right? They're migrating so they can thrive. Right. Trees aren't dropping leaves out of, like, preparation for death. They're doing it to, to thrive during the winter months and rest. And so I think, like, having a plan is saying, like, well, I'm preparing for just a change of, of life, a change of schedule. And so if we ever think, well, I can't, I can't exercise because I'm not going to be at home over the holidays and have my home gym, then we're. Then we're already kind of setting ourselves up for failure. It's okay. How can I exercise while we're away? And if that means not doing what you would ideally do, like, so, so be it, right? But we're still saying, what can I do? All right, my group isn't meeting, but how can I maintain relationship with my group members during this time? I'm really looking forward to, you know, extra, I don't know, pumpkin pie with some Cool Whip on it. Great. That's awesome. Enjoy it. And like, what are you going to do to also maintain some boundaries, some structure with food and some structure with your self care. But if we're approaching it with, I can't do those things because then we're, you know, kind of already setting ourselves up for a train wreck. Maybe not during the holiday season or during that holiday, but most likely shortly thereafter. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. It seems like we've got to look at both sides or what are the unique challenges that'll come up and how am I going to face those? But also, what are the unique opportunities? Because there are, you know, a holiday, a trip, a vacation. Like, there's maybe more time for rest or for fun or for connection, for doing something special to make a memory with your kids, which again, go back to the expectations. Don't, you know, don't get yourself so into an expectation. We have this perfect Christmas tree hunt and it all goes sideways, but there are opportunities. And if we see both, like, I'm going to plan for the unique challenges and think through my guardrails, think through. Who can I connect with? What does it look like to stay healthy and take advantage of that? There are opportunities in that flexibility and see both sides of it. Because I think when what we've talked about in so many podcasts, when we're also focused on the positive change, the good things that we're adding, that's just as powerful in staying healthy as avoiding the bad things or the places where we might be triggered towards A relapse or some kind of regretful decision.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love how you said that, Nick. Like, it's like there, there are positive things about this. How do we set ourselves up for success? To enjoy them. Right. And to like be present in them and to afterwards not look back and, you know, hate pumpkin pie until next Thanksgiving because we ate too much. No, we want you to enjoy the pumpkin pie.

Right.

We want you to enjoy the, the unique portions of that. But we have to be intentional about how we do it.

So as we're talking, it occurs to me that some people, you know, are thinking about routines and challenges we've had and you know, maybe we reflected on, we've had a couple of Christmases now in recovery and here's things we're working on. But for many people in recovery, this may be the first Christmas, this might be the first trip back to family, this might be the first time with the in laws. This might be the first time I'm going back to that town that was part of my trauma story or my addictive story. And so I think there are many challenges there because we can't look ahead and always know some of it's we're going to find out like, oh, I didn't realize how triggered I am by this or that old memory came back. So what could you say to individuals or couples in recovery that are hitting new triggers during the holiday for the first time? How can they prepare to navigate those new or unexpected triggers?

I think one is be prepared for it. Right. I think we keep talking about this, be prepared, don't go into it naively. And I think also front load on self care going into that holiday or that trip or that time, make sure you're going into it as rested and as prepared emotionally, spiritually, physically as you can. Because if you're going into it already working from a deficit, like whatever triggers are, are there are going to be so much more challenging to navigate. And so like think of your self care as preparation for that time together. And then also I'd say just schedule the stuff we're talking about, like triggers are going to happen. So like how can you schedule those interactions either with your spouse or with people from your group to plan on processing through them.

Right.

I think this happens a lot with disclosure where in the sense where a couple will think, well, I don't think it's going to be that bad so I'm not going to set up the aftercare kind of stuff. Right, right. And what we always recommend is regardless of how you think it's going to go, set it up because it will and follow through with it because it will be beneficial. Right. But it's when we say, well, I'm not going to need it, it'll be fine that we get trouble.

I think better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. And I, I to, to kind of to follow up on what you were saying. Not just only leading up to, to the season or to the, to the time that you will be around family and whatnot, but also during that time. So you were saying self care. Exactly. But my mind is also going to, you know, the busyness of, of that time. Right. That we're spending with family. It also for a lot of people it may feel like it's just one thing after the next. You're going, you're visiting the end. Like you have people coming and going. It's just a busy season. And so to make sure that you are carving out moments of solitude or quietness and just on your own to make sure that you are checking in with yourself, that you are taking the time to slow down and pause, I feel like that really can be so helpful during the time that you are in the holidays with people and then you know, in compounding to having check in times with your spouse. But I feel like definitely making sure that you are slowing down so that you can be present so that you can be aware of. Okay, where am I at? Am I being triggered? Am I having a, am I. If you're already using the faster skill, then am I being ticked on my tick tock? Where am I at? Like that's going to be very helpful. It's going to help you stay present and regulated and aware of what's going on.

Yeah.

Yeah. And have grace. Have grace for yourself. And if you're single for yourself, have grace for your spouse. Right. Like the triggers are there for a reason and you don't need to feel shame over being triggered. Right. So have grace for yourself. Okay. It's understandable why I'm feeling this way. It makes sense why that was triggering to me. Right. It makes sense to me why, why that was triggering for you. Right. Just to have grace for yourself. Yeah. Because we get, we get into that I shouldn't or I should have. Right. Kind of thing.

And that's what I was thinking about that this area does take some humility to ask for help or to acknowledge we're having an issue. And I would say honestly in my story around our Time where we were finally facing our issues, you know, finding pure desire. And that next year I had some issues around family and holidays and trips, and I think they caught me off guard. And I felt some of that shame of man around family. And this is fun. And I, you know, I don't want to make an issue of my stuff, and I don't want my spouse feeling like now she has to worry about me. But I also didn't, you know, I'm on vacation, so I didn't really want to reach out to a group member. I just kind of got stuck in my own excuses. And that. That overconfidence of, I'll just, you know, I'll just navigate through this, we'll be fine. And then it only amplified and got worse. And so I look back and wish I could have said to my younger self, like, hey, triggers can happen whether you're at home during a work week or you're on a trip and it's Christmas, and it doesn't make you somehow worse or a bad person that you got to go and say, man, I'm triggered. I'm tempted. I'm being reminded of something old. And I would add to that, if your spouse where you're at in your relationship, that's not going to be an easy or comfortable conversation, because it would be. You know, if you're in the first year of recovery, that might still be very hard for them to navigate your triggers, and it reminds them of everything they're working through. Your spouse might not be that person. If it's your first time through recovery, it may be a group. And something as simple as being able to text your group and say, hey, unexpected trigger this happened. Would you pray for me? And I'll make a call tomorrow and let people know how I did. I mean, suddenly I've got people that know I've taken that step of humility to say, I need help, I'm triggered without necessarily disrupting my spouse who might be with their family or in the midst of some holiday stuff, and it might not be the right person to go to. So just being aware of, boy, if my spouse isn't going to be that person, who is it? What does it look like to reach out to my group? And just like you said, being prepared ahead of time, having a plan of I'm going to reach out. And if I'm triggered, that's just part of navigating recovery and the unknowns that come with holidays and with family and with trips and all of that.

Yeah, yeah. One, one other Thought with this that I think could be helpful too, is if you've done the three circle exercise and you've identified, you know, your. Your middle circle. We use the term guardrails already here. One of the things that I like to do with clients in that middle circle is to have them identify people, places, things. Right. Even times of day.

And.

And so when we're talking about triggers, like, if you're a betrayed spouse, you're probably potentially. When we say trigger, you're thinking of triggers from. From betrayal, trauma. Right. If you're a recovering addict and we're saying triggers, you're probably thinking triggers around, like, sexual addiction and, you know, arousal. Right. And so, like, we're talking about any wide variety of things that could be triggers. And so if you haven't done taking the time to sit down and say, okay, what are the people that are maybe emotionally triggering? For me, that creates stress or anxiety or dread or panic. Right. Just write those down. And this isn't a list of, like, you know, like a hit list. This isn't, like, people you hate. These are people you want to be around, but they also pose some challenges and, you know, also identify places. Okay. If. If there's. This place is emotionally triggering or sexually triggering, and you don't need to go there during that holiday season. Right. You're back in your hometown.

Yeah.

Don't go there. Right. And so I think just to have that awareness. But I want to acknowledge that trigger for a betrayed spouse in this conversation is different than trigger or the recovering addict. There's a whole mix of things in there.

Yeah. And both need a space or a way to address those triggers, and they might be very different one from the other. Well, we've talked a lot about the challenges, stresses, you know, difficult situations. I want to make sure we also discuss the positive aspect because there are so many wonderful things about holidays and families and memories and trips and experiences. So as you think about working with couples and in your own story, in what ways can the holiday season be an opportunity for growth as a couple, for growth in our marriage, Though it.

May still be challenging as you approach holidays as a couple in recovery, think about the beauty that's. Or the. Yeah. The gift and the beauty that comes with it in terms of you doing holidays in a different way, with a different lens, with a different perspective, with, like, you're no longer going through the holidays the way you've done in the past, especially if there's been betrayals around, around the holidays and whatnot, or acting out. But now Think through, man. Now we are doing it differently. Now we're actively pursuing health and healing. It may not still be easy or fun or whatever, but think about that because I think it changed, it can change your perspective and the way you even are present or are enjoying those moments. It's to remember we're doing this differently. And this is because we are committed to our health, to our relationship, to our family, and because we want to love on others better. Which will have to be challenging at first to be able to get to that, to that little place.

Yeah, Yeah. I, I think oftentimes talking with clients, like, then they're going into a situation like this and they're feeling overwhelmed by like all of the structure and guardrails and conversations and boundaries and triggers. They're just feeling overwhelmed. Overwhelmed by all of this. Yeah.

Feels confining too sometimes.

Yeah. And, and we like to remind them though, that, that they're also at probably the healthiest place they've ever been in their life. Right. Like they're dealing with all this stuff, but they're also in a place where they're more emotionally aware than they've ever been. And as a betrayed spouse, maybe that betrayed spouse is experiencing more individuation in their relationship and in their relationships plural than they've ever had before. And so I think there's a potential to really like celebrate the areas of growth in this new season. And some of the ways to do that might be start a new tradition. Right? Start a new, a new ritual or tradition that has to go with this. Something that is meaningful to you and to your family that you can look forward to. Right. Every year as, as you're doing this, I think another thing is take healthy risks. Right. If there's people that you're going to go spend time with over a holiday, family or friends, let them know, hey, I'd really love to spend some time with you. Do you want to go for a hike? Right. Like don't just say, don't just say, do you want to go for a hike? Say, I would love to spend time with you. Do you want to go for a hike? Right. Communicate what it is that you really want in those relationships and, and take a risk to try to do something. You know, One of the check in questions we have is what have you done recently to improve significant relationships? Sometimes that might just be like sit on the front porch and like have a cup of hot chocolate.

Right.

But be intentional about it. Yeah.

Love the idea of starting new traditions. You know, we have to remember that Every tradition starts somewhere, and it may be the first year of a new tradition. And it's amazing to me how many things we do as a family that when my wife and I first did it, we never even thought of we're starting a tradition. But then our kids, you know, we've made suggestions of some things that we're not going to do. They'll be like, wait, we have to do that? And we're like, why? So that's our tradition. Like, oh, I guess that became a tradition. Okay. And maybe you're starting that for your marriage, your kids, your family. What I have seen is helpful in those seasons, particularly for couples, is to clarify the goal. Like, to ask, what are we trying to see happen here? Because when we know what the goal is, then we put up with or we welcome constraints to help us get to that goal. You know, I was thinking about what you were saying, Bob, with all these guardrails and people to be aware of and triggers and what am I going to do? And that. That can kind of feel like. When we drive down a freeway, there are all kinds of rules. I mean, we wear our seatbelt, we obey traffic laws, there's speed limits, there's rules about where to pass. And. And. And yet we don't look at those as confining because we see. My goal is to drive from this place to that place. And. And I want to get there healthy and alive and make sure other drivers are following those same laws. And because I can get there and see my family, I got to go for a drive. And it was safe. If none of us had any guardrails or rules, we wouldn't drive. It'd just be chaotic. Right. So in our own lives, if we know. My goal is to make a memorable experience with my kids. And we're working towards that. We're planning it. And I know to be healthy, I have to follow some guardrails. I have to be aware of trigger areas. But it's going to lead to this really good experience. Well, then it's worthwhile. Right? And so one of the questions I've tried to ask my wife every year, say, hey, what would make this Christmas a win for you? What would make it meaningful for you? What's something that's important to you? And when I know that, it's like, oh, well, I want to make sure we structure our time, our plans, that that happens so that at the end we go, oh, we got to do that. And maybe a lot of other chaos or frustration happen along the way, but something we were looking forward to happened. It kind of makes a lot of the other pieces worth it. And so I think if as a couple, you can define what's a win for us, what would make this meaningful, you know, if we looked back and didn't get to do anything else, but we got to do this one thing or see that one person or have that one opportunity, Knowing that just clarifies a lot of the other pieces.

Yeah, absolutely.

Love that.

Great.

Love that analogy. And just recreating. Right. Recreating your future, your story, your relationship with new things.

Yeah.

Well, and hopefully that becomes part of, you know, as you do more Christmases, what you can start to remember is not, oh, I remember it was, you know, New Year's Eve that you relapsed or that I discovered this, or now instead it's, oh, remember last Christmas we did this. That was so neat. And now we're going to do it this Christmas and it's building those new routines, like you said, a new tradition that. That can become what you remember and maybe not the difficulty or the trauma or whatever else may have happened.

Yeah. I think you're describing, I mean, our approach to limbic system health. Right. That like, limbic system, like we've been wounded in relationship need to be healed, but also the idea that the limbic system, like, is healed in new and opposite experiences. Yeah. And that's what we're talking about here. Yeah.

Well, amen to that. And that kind of leads into this next question of how do we. I think sometimes there can be a danger of separating our recovery journey and what we're working on as a couple to rebuild trust. And then, yeah, there's our faith, traditions and celebrating that Christ is born and the Christmas hymns. What suggestions do you have? Because I've seen some really neat ways in which I've been able to personalize faith around Christmas with my recovery story because now it takes on some new meaning. So could you talk to that a little bit? Like, what are the opportunities for couples to integrate some of their faith journey into their recovery story?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Around Christmas in particular. Yeah. I think this idea that like the birth of Christ is. Is right. God. God in. In the flesh. Right. Like the incarnate God that he is here experiencing what we experience as humans. Right. That his. That his birth signifies the beginning of that. And that the challenges that we face that. Right. That. That those aren't things that. That God is unaware of. Right. And that not just our challenges of recovery etc, but a relationship just of. Of fear. Right. Of Pain. And that it. That. That we're not going into the Christmas season where there's an expectation of perfection, but if anything, there's an expectation of. I don't know, of humanity. Right. There's an expectation that. That we would just be present in whatever our scenario is, but also to know that we're not alone in that. That.

That.

The expectation. I mean, even that later Right. In life, Jesus says that my yoke is easy, my burden is light. But that doesn't mean that there's not a burden. It doesn't mean that there's not a yoke. Right. Like, it's. And so it's kind of an invitation into just being open and honest about where you're at and an invitation into also hope and to moving forward and, you know, to not giving up.

Yeah.

To metamorphosis. Right. To rebirth. All of that.

Yeah. And embracing. Embracing the rebirth or the. Or the new creation of what's coming out. You know, the birth of Jesus and how that even tangibly, can be compared to, in a way, with our. Our birth to a new. A new lifestyle, a new dynamic within relationship and a new relationship with God itself. Like, that's. That's just powerful. And so even embracing that and in a spiritual way, it's. It's so beautiful.

Yeah. Yeah. What I've seen is the opportunity to personalize these parts of our faith that maybe when we're stuck in addiction or trauma, the messages we listen to about our worth, our value, our identity of, like, if people really knew, they'd reject me. And so it's hard to hear the love of Christ, the presence of God, the themes of Christmas, where we've maybe kind of kept them at arm's length because we're like, yeah, but I don't know about me and my issues. And. And as we're now navigating that and seeing the lies that we've listened to, to receive, oh, this is, for me, like, Christ is with me. He's my Emmanuel. God is with me. And I think for me, a lot of that has come out, like, in songs and in music, trying to hear some of the words of Christmas carols and personalize them. And, you know, one that stood out to me is the. I didn't realize there was emotion attached to it. The song says, Jesus was pleased as man with men to dwell. Jesus, our Emmanuel, that it pleased him to be like me. To be with me to. To dwell among is like, well, so now that's personal. And I. I don't think I sing it now without tearing up, because it's become a message of God saying to me, my value and worth. And so I. I think any place we can do that, where we can take traditions that just, you know, we do what we do, we sing the songs, we go to church, we light the candles. But where do we really go? Oh, no, this is true for me. This is true for my story. This is true for my history, for my marriage, my kids. And then it's not just one more candlelight service or whatever your traditions are. There's meaning attached to it. And I think we have to look for those moments to make it part of our story.

Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I'm glad you didn't sing I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus.

That'd be a little different one, maybe. Yeah.

It'd also be emotional. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's. I. I love that, Nick, that we can personalize things that haven't been personal in the past. Right. Things that have supposedly carried great importance for us in our faith and in our family, but they haven't necessarily carried importance, like, to us individually and like the idea of even John 3:16, that, like, love the world. Right. But that's you. Like, that's you. Like, you are that folk the focus of that love. And I think, yeah, Christmas does that.

Well, there's. There's certainly challenges that come up with holidays and families and trips, but there are many beautiful opportunities, and we. We just hope today we're helping couples and individuals think through that and navigate their relationships with more health than maybe they have before. And so, as we wrap up today, Bob, Rebecca, what's some final advice or a final word you would want to leave our listeners with to encourage them to handle relationship stress during the holiday season as best as possible?

Two things come to mind on my end. One of them is communication. Like, that's. Just underestimate that. Yes. Don't underestimate the value of. If it's on your mind and it's. It's uncomfortable, then that's. Please just talk about it. Find the time in a way, and an approach that can be an opportunity then to be more connected. And the other last thing that I always. I love to say, and it's. It's. I mean, it's. It's. It's such an important and powerful one, is don't get comfortable. Wherever you're at in recovery, whether you're new to it or you're well off, like, years ahead, do not get comfortable. Stay intentional and active about where you're at.

Yeah, Yeah. I would say that. That if you have relationships that are, you know, still, like, from your family of origin, particularly Right. In these around holiday things, if you have relationships that are still bringing up pain, to also remember that, like, the reason they still bring up pain is because those relationships were important to you or are important to you.

Yeah.

And. And that, like, if we just kind of can remember that, it sometimes allows us to step back a little bit from that relationship and see, like. Like, I don't know, hope in it, but also importance. It's not just a source of pain, but it's also something that is. That's. That's important and significant to you and maybe even, like, find a little bit of love and hope in that as some motivation to continue to take risks, continue to do the healthy stuff that you need to do, even if that means boundaries this year. Right. But that, like, it's challenging because it's important to you.

Yeah. Yeah. Good to remember that's why it matters. You know, when we feel something deeply, it's because it matters. And I think it reminds us that God invites us to care. God invites us to lean into relationships. And I think that's what I would underscore is the way in which holidays, even our culture sees this remind us that we were made for relationship. And when we've battled through addiction or we're working through recovery and betrayal, relationships have maybe really been wounded in some areas. But that's the opportunity of seeing how do I craft a new way of doing relationships? And doing that well in holidays becomes an opportunity for really the growth I want to see in my whole life. And so I think that's my final word, is that relationships matter. You were made for them. And whether you're working on one relationship this year, your marriage, or with one kid, like, or you feel like God's led you into growth with. In a whole lot of relationships, it's that invitation of seeing how much those relationships matter and learning to do them with greater health really is the long road of recovery. It's not just avoiding the behavior, but it's living with joy and fullness in the relationships that God has given us with one another and most importantly, with Him. So. Well, Bob, Rebecca, so great to see you guys. We love you. We value your role on our team, helping so many others navigate these challenges. So thanks for what you do and thanks for being a part of today's conversation.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you so much.

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