393 - Training Parents For Conversations About Sex

Foreign hello there, listener. I am Nick Stumbo, your host of the Pure Desire podcast, a biblically based and clinically informed approach to finding freedom from compulsive sexual behaviors and healing from betrayal trauma. You are listening Today to episode 393. And here joining me today as my co host throughout this month of our focus on parenting is my co host, Heather Kolb. Heather, welcome back to the program.

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Yeah. We are in week two now of this focus on parents and just trying to equip parents, grandparents, leaders, really everyone that has a role in speaking into the next generation, which really we all do. And focusing on that this month and today, we talked with two of our coworkers and people we think very highly of, Rodney and Tracy Wright, who are the co authors of the book how to talk with your kids about sex. And then the featured presenters on our new video course, the parent training course. So talk a little bit about today's conversation and what we heard from Rodney and Tracy.

So I think that we kind of blended a little bit about their book as well as the parent training course. And we didn't go through all the different principles, but we really focused more on what does it look like to practically equip parents to even just start that conversation with their kids about sex and healthy sexuality, how to do that in an age appropriate way, and just really giving few insights into what they're going to discover either through the book or the parent training course. And I think one of the things that I appreciate about it is just helping parents recognize that even when you show affection to your spouse in a healthy way that you're modeling healthy sexuality to your kids. And I don't think, I know, I didn't think that when I was a young parent, but really just how much we say is important, but how much we model is is equally important to our kids.

Yeah. Rodney and Tracy have been having these conversations with churches and in their own church community for many years. It's something they just have felt a burden for, like, let's help parents do better than we did. And I love in the conversation how often it comes up of them saying, we didn't do this perfectly. Some of this is what we had to learn by trial and error and experiences we had and listening to other parents. But we want to help equip the next generation with more than we had. And I think their heart shines through. And really we keep circling back to this idea of how do you create that culture in your home, in your Relationships where kids can have those conversations with you. And rather than being kind of the heavy, if you will, the disciplinarian as was, I think for many of us, kind of how we viewed our parents in this whole area of sexuality, it's like, well, don't get in trouble with dad and mom or if they find out. And there are certainly things that can happen in the parent child relationship where some sort of discipline may be in the equation. But by and large, it's equipping parents to see how can you be the advocate, how can you be the helper, the support that safe place that your kids feel like, you know, mom and dad are here to help me in this area, they want to help me. And they've had the conversations that now that something came up, I can go to them. And most of us, if we're honest as parents, we don't feel like we're very equipped for that. And that's something we talked about too, that maybe we'll never feel totally equipped, but if we can get a little bit of training, a few ideas of where to start, that may make a world of difference in the relationship we have with our kids and the way that we parent in ways that might be different than we ourselves got parented.

Yeah. And I think even just recognizing or helping parents recognize that sex, sex and sexual health, isn't this conversation that you have over here in the sidelines, that it really should be something that you integrate into all of these different areas of our life and. And just how we train our kids to drive or to take good care of themselves or to have good hygiene, that. That sexual health is. Should be right there in that conversation.

Absolutely. Yeah. And even if you're not a parent, as we're going to say throughout this month, we think there's tons to learn because we all have a role to play in this, whether we're parents or not. And in so many of these conversations, it really gives us insight into our own story. And I think that happens because anytime we look to train or teach or take what we're learning and tell someone else, we actually learn more about our own story and the things that we need to face or to deal with. So I think even if you're not a parent or don't plan to be, there's a ton in this conversation that you'll learn from. And obviously, if you are a parent or have a role as a church leader in training and working with parents, we'd highly recommend that you check out our resource, the parent training course. Because what you're going to hear today is just a snapshot of what Rodney and Traci write. And then our guest experts and others who provide testimonials discuss throughout the parent training course. So grab a copy of that today, your digital copy, and go through the full course. But now I want you to enjoy our conversation with Rodney and Tracy Wright on training parents for conversations about sex. Well, Rodney and Tracy, welcome back to the show. We are so glad to have you on again. Welcome.

Thank you. As always.

Yeah, always great to be with you guys.

So today we're getting to feature one of our newest resources here at Pure Desire Ministries, the parent training course. And you guys are the featured teachers on that video training course. But it's based off of your book that you authored a couple of years ago, how to talk with your kids about sex. And so for people that maybe have heard about the book, they haven't read it, or this is their first experience of hearing from you guys. Tell us a little bit about your story of what inspired you to write that book. And was there a particular moment or experience that made you felt compelled to address this topic with parents?

Well, I think looking back on it, to me it's kind of a cool story of just that was in Rodney's heart from a long time ago and not just pick a topic, write a book, but this was really central to his heart, I think for a couple reasons. One, to be on the proactive side. And I remember him saying, I wish I want to share or write something that would have helped young Rodney. And you know, that always touched my heart of just like, oh, he has a really heart for I didn't have this kind of support and this kind of help and neither did my parents. And I wish that that was there. So that was a big part of that with Rodney. And then also as the beginning of the parent training and the book that we wrote talks about our own healing before we can turn around and help our kids. And so just Rodney's heart was if we can bring the parents in wanting to help their kids, because most people do, then they'll turn around and be able to look at their own healing and what is needed and not have to be able to share that out of a place of shame or a place of healing health.

Yeah. When I was getting my, my recovery started in the 90s, so I was looking for all kinds of resources and tools to help any way that I could. And I came across Cliff and Joyce Pinner, maybe you heard of them, they were some voices James Dobson. And I just was eating up all the information I could get to say what would have helped young Rodney. And so I wasn't able to own my story for decades publicly after my recovery because my religious framework, it didn't seem safe to really do that. But I could always move towards something about helping kids. And so we started doing this little training that I came up with. Understanding and managing your sexuality. What every parent should tell their kid. That was actually like the first version of this book. And I remember being on an airplane flying to San Diego to share with a friend of mine. And these 10 principles came to me that our book is based out of. And in true Rod Wright fashion, I wrote him down on the back of a vomit bag on the airplane. So it's just classic, you know, you just gotta go with what you got. And the book would have never happened, actually, without Tracy's ability and people like Heather and so many that just contributed to, you know, kind of capture my heart and language to try to help parents know how to help their kids. And just for mom and dad to be the safest place for kids to learn and help mom and dad lower their shame and find healing and just pay something forward. We're not here long. If generations from now people can continue to give their kids and grandkids a healthier framework, especially within religion and sexuality, then we would just celebrate that.

And I remember reading the principles, and I was like, okay, you're smart, Rodney, but the Holy Spirit definitely helped you. You're good. But I know the Holy Spirit was in on me because I immediately saw that there was something in there that was special and could help other people. So I think that's what we've tried to capture and Pure Desire has tried to capture in a training for parents.

Well, what you guys have just shared, too, I think is the heartbeat behind a lot of our listeners that they look at their own story and see, I did not do this perfectly, and I didn't have much help. I didn't know where to turn. I didn't get a lot of insight or advice or wisdom from others or those that went ahead of me. How could I do better? How could we do better? And I love that your book in this video course. I think that's the heartbeat of saying we want to help raise generations of kids. That doesn't mean they're going to do it perfectly or that we're going to do it perfectly, but that have better resources, that have better training, that have more help than we did. And if we just like you said, Rodney, if that's something we pass to the next generation, we're moving in the right direction. And I think that should just be celebrated that we're all trying to create something a little better than what was handed to us.

Yeah. And even if it's just knowing where to start, that's a huge step for parents. The way that you guys have laid things out make it really easy and practical for parents to just take one step at a time. And it really is like a roadmap for them. Yeah, I love that. So as we, as you addressed in the parent training, many parents struggle with when and how to start talking with their kids about sex and healthy sexuality.

So.

So what are your top recommendations for initiating this conversation in a way that feels natural and approachable with kids?

Well, I'll start on this one, Heather. It's a great question. I think two ways, number one, mom and dad, educate yourself. Go get. There's so many books, resources, podcasts, trainings. Pure Desire has some great ones too. But I mean, just the more you can educate yourself about what educators are saying about being a safe parent. Age appropriate conversations. So starting sooner is always better than later in our opinion. And age appropriate. But part of that is whatever resource you get, we hope you get ours. We hope, you know, you buy the parent training by the millions, but whatever you get, learn how to use sexual language together as a couple. Because many of us as couples aren't used to using sexual language, you know, just from anatomy of penis and vagina to just other sexual terms. Many times we only hear those in derogatory ways. So we're not going to talk to our 11 year old about masturbation if we can't even say that or that's a word that we can't even discuss. So the more you just practically become comfortable with healthy sexual language or sexual language used in a healthier context and you create a home where it's okay to ask questions, it's okay to grow, it's okay to learn. It's really about creating a safe family to learn. And mom and dad, we give you permission to learn. Like it's okay, it's okay to not know what you don't know and start by educating yourself. And there is so many great resources out there that can help you with language and a framework.

One of the things that has stood out to me the most is just that starting early conversation creates a baseline for conversation throughout our kids lives. And I know everybody hasn't started early, so that's something that comes up too, like what do I do now when I didn't start early? But for those that are on the front end, whether they have kids or not yet, that's really important because that conversation, when you lay that groundwork, it becomes easier to have the conversation throughout their life and through puberty rather than waiting for that one conversation. And then it's, you know, it's more awkward. It just is. And we have to look for other creative ways when our kids are older to be able to be vulnerable ourselves or to ask good questions.

This is an area where I owe you guys a debt of gratitude because I feel like in our relationship as I got to know Rodney and you, Tracy was around the age my boys were younger and started going to school. And your kids going to school is an opportunity in and of itself because now they're rubbing shoulders with, with different family environments, different cultures and that thought of something as simple as ask questions. So to say to my boys, like, hey, are you hearing anything at school that you don't understand? Has anybody used words that were new to you? Were there any jokes, you know, boys saying jokes about girls or girls joking about boys that you didn't know what they meant? And you know, sometimes they'd say no dad, and sometimes they'd have questions. And I just found that that question asking made it non confrontational. There was no shame of like what, you know, what are you thinking? It was just asking, is there anything you don't understand? And then having that opportunity if, even if there was nothing to say, that's awesome. I just hope you know that if anything ever comes up, I'd love, you know, you can ask me anything. There's no problem or question or word that, that you should be afraid to bring to me because I'd love as your dad to get to talk to you and, and I didn't always know if that was safe to go to my parents. I want you boys to know anything that come, just come and talk to me. And you know, I'm finding now as my youngest is 12 going on 13, you know, the questions grow as the kids grow and some of the conversations I have with my 12 year old, it's like, okay, we're going to discuss that word. I'm glad I, and I, that's the thing I remind myself because you know, when the questions get bigger and a little more in depth, it's like, okay, how do I explain this to my 13 year old son? But I have to remind myself, thank you Lord that I get to be a Part of this conversation, man, I get to be a part of helping him have that conversation. And is it a little awkward? Sure, it can be, but I'd rather have it be awkward with me and him than him trying to awkwardly on his own, figure out what stuff means.

Yeah, Nick, that actually brings a lot of joy. I mean, I know, you know, Luke and Carter and those kids are like 69 and 6 11. They're tall, and you wouldn't think they're 12. But anyway, you know, I didn't always have that with my boys. And so, you know, our book isn't about how Rodney and Tracy did everything right, you know, hence our last name. We put a few of the things we didn't do right in there so that others would learn. And so just hearing you talk about what you're giving your boys, Nick, it actually just brings tears to my eyes, you know, because it's like, yeah, that's the goal is a dad is just leaning into the conversation and being there and being vulnerable and present, being safe for his kids. So, I mean, I think your boys and your girls are fortunate in that regard.

So I know from your book and the video course that a big point of emphasis in raising kids and having these conversations is addressing our own sexual health. And so why is that such a key to this conversation? I think sometimes parents might feel like, well, I don't want to worry about me. This is about my kids. Like, not about me. But why is it important that we address our own health and conversely, what may happen in conversations with our kids if we haven't addressed our own sexual story?

Well, that part of the adage in recovery movements are, you're as sick as your secret. And so just kind of living a holistic, integrated life where, you know, whether it's current history or past things in your current addiction or current struggle or even current shame that you haven't processed, just the more you can kind of turn face and really process in the healthiest way you can, your own negative sexual history, or maybe even just a part of your history that you had more questions on and didn't. It's not necessarily negative. It's just uncertainty and find clarity and own it. Then I find that especially religious parents, parents of a Christian framework or religious parents, sometimes that's the hardest to integrate healthy sexuality and sexual language of our own story. Because evangelical churches historically haven't always been the safest place to address negative sexual history and find hope and healing, which of course, we believe that that tides turning with the work of pure Desire and counselors and ministries and movements that are helping the church embrace this conversation in a much healthier way. But, you know, owning your own story, we feel like, is one of the best things you can give to your kid. Because if you can't love yourself well, I think it's hard to love your kids well.

And I think part of that story is, you know, like Rodney was saying, not always about the negative sexual history. Sometimes it's about our belief in, you know, what is our faith, beliefs teach us or what kind of what narrative did we create from what we believe about ourself, God and others. And so really, even sometimes we can just bypass that of looking back and saying, this is what I got handed. This is where the confusion was and what do I think about that now? Or what was unhealthy or healthy about what my parents did or didn't teach me, what my church did or didn't say about this area, or what I learned from my friends or from culture.

Yeah. It seems like it's really important too for parents to be willing to recognize that this is what I was handed. This is what my parents either taught me that was maybe misinformation, or this is what my parents, you know, did that was right. But being willing to, like you said, educate yourself, but then create something that becomes new, you know, because we have a tendency to parent the way we were parented unless we do something intentionally to intervene or to change that trajectory. And so I think that that's really important for parents to recognize is that it can look totally different and be really a great experience for you and for your kids.

Yeah. What I have observed in my story is that the emotions I feel around a topic will leak their way into the conversation. And so if the conversation of sexuality comes up and I'm stuck in a lot of shame of my past, a lot of fear of being discovered or people knowing it, a lot of uncertainty or self criticism. I'm going to have that conversation through those emotions of fear, shame, and I'm probably going to project it onto my kids because I, in an effort to protect them from that, I'm going to create fear and shame and uncertainty versus if that conversation comes up and I've done work and I've got curiosity around that, I've got compassion, I've got a level of self grace and a desire to give grace that's going to leak into the conversation in a positive way. And so I. And I think that's true whether we're talking about sexuality or any, any Number of difficult conversations we have with our kids, our own emotional framework around it will be the grid through which we communicate to them. And that happens whether we want it to or not. And so if we want to have really good conversations, the best way to set ourselves up for that, I think, is to deal with the emotional framework we have, which means doing our work. And I think it's so crucial in this area of sexuality.

Sure. Nick. That reminds me of that story that I share. I felt like I shared it 10,000 times. So. 10,001. Now when my kids ask me, my boys on a camping trip, dad, have you ever looked at porn? You know, they felt safe to ask. And this dad who wrote a book said, who wants more chili? You know, I changed the subject real quick and to your point, to your point. Just, I felt that emotion of avoidance and uncertainty and shame around my own story. And so, you know, I hope when everyone sees a can of chili, they think, I can do better than Rodney in this, you know, and. But you're so right. What? Our health is one of the best gifts we give our kids. So, mom and dad, your health is one of the best gifts you give your sexual health in this regard.

So true. So in today's world, where children are exposed to sexual content either through media or their peers, and we find that that's happening at much younger ages these days. So how do you recommend that parents navigate these influences when having discussions with their kids about sex?

Yeah, so I would start by saying just making mom and dad the safe person to bring things to. So the more that they see you as safe, that you're going to help train and guide them, not shame and punish them. And so life is really about learning and growing and that we will all make mistakes in life, and mistakes are part of our human condition. It's just a part of us is growing, learning things. And so just the more that when they bring something that, hey, I saw this on my phone. Like you said, this is why we love Kristen Jensen's work about good pictures, bad pictures. She's going to be on in future podcasts here, and she's a part of the parent training. It's so wonderful that there are voices out there that equip and train and educate, but it really is just about how we treat and see every human being with sexual integrity. And sexual integrity are words like honor, dignity, and respect. And we show that to people. And, you know, we have parts of our body that are private, and so we wear clothes over them. There are private parts. And then if we see people's private parts, we would want to treat them with honor, dignity and respect. Just like if we were to see a parent or a family member somewhere out in public, we would want to honor them. So that framework of safety and honor and seeing that not all sexual feelings are evil, but they're a part of our development. We just have to learn how to manage them in healthy ways. So just that clarity of what's healthy, stewardship, management, married or single, and what's unhealthy. And so just the more you can use language and framework to give kids a guide, then when they're exposed to something unhealthy, they have a little bit of a framework of what is healthy. And if they have questions, they can sure go to mom and dad with it. And we just feel like that's a big win. And I know it's shocking when parents hear things they don't maybe want to hear, but we would say, that's great, mom and dad, you're doing your job. Your kids feel safe to come to you.

And in this culture, having words around, you know, we know that they are going to be exposed to some things. So it's being the first one to talk to them about it. Beating them to Google, so to speak, as kind of like you talked about Nick. That's great when we can do that because when they see something, then they know like, oh, I don't need to hide this. This is something my parents said, I will see something, you know, and it, we don't have to be explicit about it, but just saying you'll see something that, you know, explaining about the body or, you know, an uncovered body or depending on their age, obviously that you, when you see something like that, come and talk to mom and dad about it.

Yeah.

And so making that safe of like you're on the front end, I think that could just create so much relief for your kids because when they are exposed to something, they do not know what to do with that. And they, there's something in them that feels very wrong and, and knows there's something wrong there and they don't know what to do about it unless we've told them.

Yeah. Creating that safe culture for them to come to you, having the conversation first is so vital. And I, I think it rails against what is still sometimes a mindset of, I'm just going to keep my kids away from those things. They're not going to have a smartphone going to keep them off social media. We're not going to watch those shows. And Maybe in your home. That's true. But unless you're, you know, living in some wooded area by yourself in an M. Night Shyamalan kind of movie where you rejected the rest of the world, sooner or later, like, your kids are going to be on a school bus and someone with a smartphone might have social media they're going to be in, and this is a story I've heard recently. They're going to be in a classroom with kids on tablets for learning purposes, and some kid in that room knows a way onto a social media site and now shares a picture or. Or something that's meant as a joke, and it might not even be full nudity, but it's. It's something very sexual in nature. And at school that happens. What kind of protection or monitoring can you have when they're at grandma's house or they're with cousins? The world we live in, and you've said it, Tracy, they're going to be exposed, and we don't want them to be. We want to protect them from that. But this idea that I will insulate my kid so that they don't see anything until they're an adult, I'm sad to say that's not the world we live in anymore. And so if we can create that resilience in our kids by that being that safe place, having the conversations, that's far more effective than just trying to keep it all away from them. And so shift to that mindset. It's really going to go a long ways to helping those conversations.

Yeah, Nick. And not seeing the human body as bad, whether it's female or male, that the body is actually good, made in God's image. But sometimes something good gets used in the wrong way. So again, just helping them see that. Hey, sexuality. Our different genitalia, male and female, these aren't bad. These are really, really good. God made us this way. But sometimes something good gets used in the wrong way or gets used by tricky people. And so, you know, when. When they are exposed, they just have a plan of what to do.

Yeah. Yeah. So good. Well, one of the challenges that parents face and that we hear about is knowing how to adjust the conversation about sex and sexuality as our K grow and as they age. And we have people listening to the podcast that I'm sure have really little kids or babies, and they're. They're trying to prepare for that. And we have listeners with adult children or teenage children, and they're playing catch up and everything in between. So what are your suggestions about how parents can ensure they're having age appropriate and meaningful discussions at every stage of development.

Well, I, I definitely think getting support right there, we don't feel totally equipped for this. Most parents that we've talk to or trainings that we've done, you don't feel totally equipped for it. So again, going back to the education, I think that's why that this parent training is so important to pure desire to share with parents is we, we really do need that outside support. We need expert opinions and other people that have researched that that can kind of come alongside of us. Right. And help us walk through that.

And we list some books in the back of our books that are age appropriate for kids. They're called the Christian Series of Sexual Learning. I believe they are, but they're in the reference notes and Heather will know the exact title as well as the. What's the word? Whoever.

The reference.

Yeah, the reference of who produced them and what year it came out. But I like to have other resources too. And this is what I loved about Cliff and Joyce Pinner. Like, you know, we have a one year old granddaughter, she's learning how to bond and so she's just bonding. She does that with her mom through breastfeeding, but she also does that with family through hugs and healthy touch and care. And then as they grow, they learn how to identify their body parts and give proper language to them and the proper place for nudity in the shower, but not in the front yard, that kind of thing. And then as they get older, how to be aware of the different sex and how to honor and respect others. And then as they get into that teenage years, how to be aware of your sexual feelings and realize that those aren't all evil and bad, that's a part of how God made you. But how to honor and respect yourself and honor and respect others. And then as you get into that age of courting and dating, which seems to be younger and younger are different, maybe even different is a better word than younger and older. Just it seems to be way different. How do you integrate now your values? What's our sexual values of how we manage this part of our life and what would that look like toward ourself and toward other people? And so that's when you can really begin to share your values as a parent. And again we go back to that. Integrity, sexual integrity, respect, honor and dignity for self and others. What would that look like? And those of us of the Christian faith, of course we have scripture that helps guides us into those conversations as well as some really healthy people, both in the brain science and in the medical community and psychological community that can really help us look at what's healthy versus unhealthy.

I've been thinking a lot about having tools in our toolbox. And I do a lot of the couples counseling for Pure Desire and we're building tools for our toolbox. And I think the same as a parent and I'm a grandparent now when we have, we have a three year old grandson who's getting a little aggressive with the one year old and I'm like, I need some tools in my toolbox. I'm watching mom. And sometimes there's new things to learn, right? Not necessarily doing it the way we did before, but there's new things that people learn about how our brains work. And I think the same around this area of sexuality and training our kids in any place in their life, right, is we want to add tools to our toolbox. And now I have something to pull out when I need it. And I think that's why this is a really valid, really vital part, being a parent. And most parents know that I really see that in the younger generation, most of them know that our culture is going to affect my child in this area. And that has probably caused me some issues or some pain or confusion. And I want to do this better. And so I love that. And I think that exposure to culture and to even media and all of that has kind of awakened us to like, we have to be doing this better than what we got handed. And so I just say encourage parents, grandparents, leaders, you know, to broaden your toolbox, add to those tools that you have.

I know that one of your primary points in your book and in the parent training course is to, you know, is to welcome questions. And I think that one of the best conversations that I had with two of my boys and they were both in high school and, and this was not a planned conversation.

Right.

So they rarely are.

Oh my gosh, be ready anytime, right, Heather?

That's right. Being ready. And some. One of the girls at their high school, she was pregnant and the whole, all the students knew about it. And so we're having this conversation about that because we'd already talked a lot about sex and sexuality and but it really did. This conversation took a turn because I was telling them, you know, that if you're not, if you're not married to a girl and you. And she gets pregnant, that really you don't have any say in what she decides to do with her baby and that she could abort your baby and you'd have no say in that. And we had this conversation and my kids are in just like tears thinking about that and they're in high school. You know, I would have never imagined that a conversation about abortion and about an unplanned pregnancy and really the fallout of that would be something that would be so impactful with my sons. But they really took it to heart in a way that was really just the holy spirit, I think in so many ways because I could have never anticipated that it would have had that effect on them.

Yeah, yeah, I love what you're saying. To look for those opportunities where you see, oh, this is a teachable moment. There's something here that connects to what I've been trying to say and I think with those teachable moments or opportunities is taking your cues from our kids. Because what I've seen as I hear from parents, what one 10 year old is ready to hear in one family might be vastly different from where another 10 year old is at based on their own personality, their level of curiosity, the friend circle they happen to be in the context of the school they go. I mean, there's so many factors that influence what a kid is ready for and we may not know. And it's why staying connected to our kids on an emotional level is so key. Like where are they at? What are their needs and being responsive to what they're asking about and not assuming that, well, you're, you're 10 and this is what you need when you're 10. Because even I think about my two boys, they're very different and what the one needed at 10 and the other, they're several years apart in terms of some of those needs. So just taking those cues of what, what is coming up with them naturally, what are they asking about indicates okay, we need to change the conversation. The conversation needs to go forward. We need to hit fast forward with this one. And that's okay because it'll be different in every situation.

And just as a parent doing the best you can, you're not going to have all the, maybe the, you know, come across like you're an author of a book, but. Because I sure didn't at times. But just use the best you can to use the language you can. I remember a relative of ours one time who said to his young boys, you know, if her junk touches your junk and her junk gets on your junk and your junk gets on her junk, this could not go well. I mean, he's doing the best he can using junk Language, you know, and I just thought it was so funny. I thought I would have wrote this in my book had I heard it. But he was just trying to do the best he could about, you know, explaining pregnancy and some of the challenges that you're going to have to navigate. But I thought to myself, at least this is a dad trying to help his kids, inform them and give them a better framework. And we kind of laughed about, with, even with him, about the language that he used. I said, well, cousin, that's language I haven't quite heard before, but that's one way to say it. You know, I won't tell you what state he's from, but anyway, that's, that's he's doing the best he could.

I love it.

I love that. So a lot of parents think that if they talk about sex or sexuality with their kids, that it's going to like create this curiosity in their kids and that maybe that didn't exist beforehand. And so how do you address these common concerns and what research supports the idea that these conversations can actually help to prevent risky behavior?

Well, curiosity is already natural. This is one of the things I learned from Cliff and Joyce Pinner is that kids are going to be naturally curious about their body, others bodies, how that all works. So I think just this whole thing about curiosity is yes, there are curious and you're not going to necessarily awake it, but you're going to learn how to guide it and address it and be a little bit more proactive about, hey, your body's changing, you're learning about differences, here's a healthy framework about again, what's healthy versus unhealthy. And here's kind of what can be normal about discovering your body or wanting to understand how other people's body works. And this is where, you know, for me, I've been an advocate of like helping people see, helping parents show their kids male and female anatomy, but while they're together, not in a sexualized way, but in an education way. So not to sexualize it, but just when they're learning the differences and learning how reproduction works and just kind of bleeding the embarrassment and shame out of it. And again, creating dignity and honor and education as a part of that whole conversation and kind of being proactive about curiosity or even saying things like, I was curious too, but I wasn't going to ask your grandpa, you know, when I was young. And I'm so glad that you felt safe to ask your mom and I. And then leading into embracing that curiosity is good. And I hope you're curious about a lot of things in life so that you can maybe help some things and, you know, guiding that rather than trying to quench that as, we better not open this box because we don't know what to do.

And giving them small pieces at a time, so you don't have to give them all, everything, you know, all at once, but giving them small pieces, seeing what their questions are and kind of basing it off of that. I think small, small conversations more often. And then I definitely think I was one of those parents that was sheltering, and some of the things I did were good. I didn't want to overexpose them by movies and things like that. But we just know in this culture there's a bigger risk they're going to be overexposed by something else than by their discussion with you. That's in a healthy way. And I would just far rather that they got a healthy conversation, healthy perspective, because they're going to hear it, whether it's at school or even if they're homeschooled, they're going to hear it shouted down the street in a lot. In a lot of ways. So for us to be able to present that information in a more healthy way, even if we fumble at it, we don't feel like we did that good of a job, is just hopefully a parent can stand back and just be grateful that they allowed themselves to do that, step in, take a little risk, and step into that awkward conversation. Maybe for them.

You know, I like, Rodney, that you used that illustration of a box. Because I was thinking about if I came home from work today to my family, and I had a box, and I set it on the counter and my son said, dad, what's in the box? Oh, I can't tell you. He said, why not? Well, it's too dangerous. Well, why? Well, because you're too little. Now, has that increased or decreased his desire to know what's in the box? Right. Like, infinitely. Like, now, it's taboo. It's risky. It's like, what's going on here that they won't tell me? And that's not a perfect metaphor because it's overly simplified, but I think parents have inadvertently sometimes done that to kids of, like, we don't talk about that because it's dangerous and it's bad. And realizing the kids actually now, like, what. What is the big deal? I've got to find out. And that's not because they're bad or have a wicked little heart. It's because, as you said, Rodney, they're really curious and that's natural. And we don't have to open up and explain everything in the box all at once, to your point, Tracy. But we can share enough in an age appropriate way that I actually think it kind of closes that box in their brain of like, oh, yeah, I don't need to know more about that right now. And they move on because they're kids and they're interested in a thousand things, but the more we make it taboo and mysterious, it only increases that. And so looking for ways to just, as you said, kind of bleed the mystery out of it and the awkwardness of, like, let's just normalize in an age appropriate way a little bit of that conversation. And then I think their brains will move on to. Until they're ready for that next part or to know more, you know.

Nick, my grandson loves to drive a car, and he's only two and a half. We don't give him the keys and say, louie, be back by nine. But boy, if the car's parked and he can stand in front of that wheel and turn it and push all the buttons, he just says, come back in an hour. I'm having the time of my life. So again, he's learning something, but in a way we think it's safe for him to learn. And it's not necessarily bad, but there's a lot of responsibility with driving a car. And I know some of our listeners may not necessarily be gun owners, but I wasn't raised with guns in my home, but I moved to North Idaho and that kind of changed it a little bit. But it's all about just respect, dignity and honor and age appropriateness with things, but not seeing that it's innately evil and it can be used in a healthy way or unhealthy way. And so that education and that natural curiosity to say, man, I see my mom driving a car. I can't wait to drive a car someday. And in some parts of this state, they're driving, you know, tractors at nine. But anyway, that's another discussion. But out on the farm. But, you know, sometimes when, when they're older and they can get responsibility and learn more. That's where just being sensitive of a parent about how to guide them to the next step.

I think another piece to add to that curiosity is like, I'm thinking about the box, Nick, and I'm thinking about parents whose kid. They find out their kids viewed porn, were exposed to porn, sent a picture, whatever that might be. And a lot of times that creates A lot of fear in the parent, and they overreact and create kind of like, you're in trouble or a lot of shame around that. And I kind of think about like, that box in our culture is like sitting out there with the curiosity, too. And if our parents are aware, we can then walk alongside of them in that instead of going straight to that. My fear created anger at you and now punishment, which a lot of times has the opposite effect of what we really want, which is to pull them close, to be able to talk about this. So it's like, if we can expect that the exposure is going to happen, or we can understand that the curiosity may create our kids doing something that they're confused about or didn't really want to do. And then we can walk alongside of them. And I think we can approach it from a different way and have a. A way different outcome in supporting and helping them through that.

And think of the parent who can say, hey, when I was nine, here's something that didn't go right for me. Something that I saw, something that happened to me. And they can give age appropriate details, but now they can lean first with their own vulnerability and say, that's why I'm here to help you, because I didn't have that help when I was your age. And again, that just creates. Oh, my goodness. My mom or dad have been through some things. They're open about their struggles and pain in life. And I had a dad call me just today and talk about, he's a guy in one of our groups and he's leading groups. And he just said, I flew off the handle and did something wrong. And then I went to my kids and apologized for how I mismanaged my anger. And I was like, way to go. You actually modeled something really beautiful for them. When you make a mistake, here's what you do. You own it and you learn and you grow, you know. So that's just another piece I'll throw in.

Yeah. Owning our story and our mistakes, I think is a key part of this next question. And it occurs to me as so much of this conversation revolves around building that relationship of trust with our kids, that when something happens, there's trust there and they feel safe coming to us. So how can parents foster that environment of trust where their kids do feel comfortable coming to them? And for parents that maybe feel like they've missed the boat, their kids are now teens or older. What could they do even later in life to work on building that trust with their kids?

Well, I think Heather said something earlier that kind of made me think of this when she said about what you got handed, you don't have to repeat and you can actually learn something and move a different direction or model something different. So, you know, part of that is we said to our kids, whatever's healthy, take, take that to your life and in your marriage, in your, in your future homes. But our dysfunction leave with us. And the other part of that, Nick, is that whole piece of just vulnerability of continuing to being a lifelong learner. And this is where I just give a shout out to my dad. He passed away a couple years ago, but when he was in his 80s, he was still navigating his body, changing as an older man. And he circled it back around and had that conversation with me because my mom said to him, joe, you better tell your four boys this because some days when they're your age, they might need to know this. And so here's my dad, Nick, who didn't have a framework to talk to us when we were younger, but still kept learning and growing and said, hey Rod, when you get old like me someday, things change and here's what you might want to be aware of. And that conversation left him and I in tears and created a beautiful moment. So for the mom and dad who felt like, man, I wish I would have said something different or been a different parent or had a different framework or been in a healthier place, I hear you, I see you, I raise my hand with you. But we can keep growing and we can keep having new opposite experiences where my 20 year old boys and a 30 year old, now we still have conversations about growing in health and unhealth and we still continue to be a voice. Maybe not driving the car in the passenger seat, but we're in the trunk. Maybe, maybe even though we're in the trunk, we're still at a place of influence and we can still help in this regard.

I think just for me, that what Rodney said about vulnerability, that stands out the most as our kids are older, right? So if we feel like we missed a window or there's things we can come back and say, oh, I wish I would have done that differently. There's just a lot in there that can open up doors or if there's tension there or if you've let them down or if, you know, if you just didn't talk about it and you wish you would have, I think sharing from our own story, as they get older and the older they are, the more right then we, we can share more specifically or more openly And I just think that that model of humility goes a long way with our kids in any area, and this area is a big one for them.

Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think that I've had really great opportunities with my adult sons to be able to go back and even answer some of their questions and apologize for when I didn't get it right. In fact, I got it wrong in school so many ways because of the stress and, you know, trauma that I was experiencing. And so just being able to go back and recognize where we failed, really, in a lot of ways, where we failed them and we failed ourselves and. And apologize and work then to repair the relationship. And I think that my kids have all experienced that and been so willing to step into that with me. And so, yeah, I really appreciate that with them.

That's beautiful, Heather. I think that's more attractive than we even understand or give credit for. That humble heart that says, I didn't do it all, right? And I own that. To me, that is. I don't know that. I think that's. I think that's part of the way who does it all right? You know, and the only parent that did it right, the father, son, and spirit. Their two kids struggled. So, you know, even the ones that you thought would have grown kids, God's way. God, you know, their first two kids struggled. And their grandkids, right? And their great grandkids, right? So, like, just that humility looks so beautiful as we keep. Keep modeling by growing and keep modeling by just pursuing our own health as individuals.

Parents, A really big concept in sports right now. Seems like that next play mentality. Hear a lot of people talk about it, that if I'm, you know, playing golf and I'm standing over a shot, and all I'm thinking about is the two bad shots I hit to get here, and I'm likely to hit another bad shot versus if I can, you know, kind of leave those in the past and be present and say, okay, right here, right now, what's the best thing for me to do? And I think that actually translates really well to this question, because as parents, we all look back and feel like, man, if I'd have done this or that or if I'd have gotten healthy sooner, if I could have had these conversations when my girls were younger, and if I am dwelling on that, it actually is now impacting my next play instead, how could I say, you know what? I can't change what got me to where I am right now, but in this moment, what's in front of me? What could I change? What could I work on? How could I grow? How could I re. Approach a conversation? What's my next play gonna look like with my kids? And whether they're 2 or 22 or 42, I think that has to be our mentality is whatever I feel like I've already missed, okay, but what can I do now? And what does that next play look like?

So while many conversations that when parents think about talking with their kids about sex, many of the conversations really focus more on, like, the. The physical or biological aspects of, you know, sexual health. But in your book and in the parent training, you guys talk about this on a broader scope. And so could you tell our listeners how would they incorporate emotional, spiritual, relational elements in the conversation when they're talking to their kids about sex?

Well, in chapter four, we talk about fostering connection and that, Heather, our greatest human need isn't our sexuality or orgasm or intercourse. We think our greatest human need is connection is to be seen, known, loved, and cared for. And so this is where, like, how do we become a holistic individual? And this is where I'm so grateful for the teachings of Jesus. For me, and this whole thought of holistic spirituality, it's about integrating health in all areas of life. For me, I didn't know how to do that in my traumas as a kid, or I didn't know how to do that in my sexuality. But it's really just seeing that what makes a healthy sexual relationship is when we learn to love a person, our heart, our mind, our soul, and then learning how to integrate our faith in. In our relationships, honor, dignity, respect for self and others in how we think and how we process things in life. And these are big pieces of the puzzle because ultimately, whether we're married or single or whatever stage and age of life we're in, we want to be healthy people having healthy connections. And if marriage provides a place for a healthy sexual connection, that's wonderful. But wherever we are in life, we want to bring out the best in ourself and the best in others. And so that integration and holistic part of that is really important. And, you know, I lead groups for men, and I tell people I have a lot of intimate men relationships, and they just go, oh, no. Rodney's more messed up than we thought. You know, I say, but they're intimate, but they're just not sexual. But they're very deep and meaningful and rich. And I think this is where our culture puts a lot of eggs in the sex basket, hoping that if I change my sex or sex somehow fixes everything and it wasn't meant to do that. It was meant for pleasure, bonding, procreation, its highest use in the context of marriage, the better way of managing it in a committed, monogamous relationship. You know, and so this is just that integration to me is so important.

And not hyper focusing on behavior, I think as parents. So the holistic piece would be right, we're looking at what's underneath that. And we're looking at, as Rodney's talking about, our greatest need is connection. And so if we hyper focus on the behavior, I think sometimes we miss the heart of our child. I think that is the message of Christ is to see, to see through the behavior to our heart. And of course as parents we are helping our kids with behaviors. But I think if we focus on the principles underneath, I really feel like our kids will attract and connect to that as well because they have the same God given needs for connection and relationship and to not isolate and to be respected by others. Right. And so what does that look like? And how do I do that with other people? And then, you know, within that there's the opportunity to correct and guide our kids when needed in their behaviors as well.

You know, this is another area where I owe you guys some gratitude because I feel like in the conversations I've had with my kids, I'm always hearing Rodney's voice of saying, like, how can you connect this to God and his creation? And whatever the topic is, like somewhere in there trying to incorporate, well, God made our brain this way, or this is how God designed the body, or this is a gift that God gave. And then I think the other side of it is I try to add, and then what impact does it have on our relationships? So we might be talking about something physical or biological, but if I can connect in the two directions of how does this connect to God and how does this connect other people? Now I'm keeping the conversation grounded more holistically and not falling into what I think can be a trap. Even in the church that we make this just a biological conversation which almost separates it from the life of faith. It's like, well, over here we have the life of faith. And I know you talk about this a lot, Rodney, that it's all spiritual, but we can think that, well, the life of faith is prayer and church and Bible. And then over here, apart from that biology and sex, which can kind of make our kids think God is not all that interested in my biology or my sexual when he's actually the author of it. So just any ways that in the conversation we can keep those connected of God's creation and our interaction with other people, then our sexuality is grounded in that context of the world around me and the holistic life that I'm living versus somehow being this separate thing that I do over on the side with my body.

I. You know, I couldn't agree with you anymore, Nick, about that whole holistic spirituality and seeing the way of God in all areas. You know, I was really grateful that my therapist kind of helped me see that in going through my own healing journey and just learning how to integrate a shameless plug for our pure desire groups, men and women, because this is what we help people do learn with our tools and our resources, is help people learn how to live holistic, healthy lives in all areas. And not so much making things Christian, non Christian, secular, you know, that whole language, but just moving toward health in all areas that we steward in healthy ways.

Yeah, you do a great job to explaining this in your book and in the parent training. And there's graphs in there that are helpful, but I just think that people don't necessarily. I don't think people give it a lot of thought, but I know that even for me, when I saw the graphs and I heard the conversation and the way that you explained it, and I thought, you know what? I really do that too myself. And I need to work more at making sure that it's all holistic, that it's all together, that. That some of the pieces are not separate.

And this is where just stewardship is a life issue for everything. You know, I went from my sexual addiction, Heather, to being a workaholic. But I was a pastor, so it was okay because I was working for Jesus, building a big church, meanwhile coming home and not being emotionally available with my kids. And so again, this isn't about swapping addictions. It's about integrating health in all areas. And I wish I could say I've got it all figured out, but I'm still a work in progress, working on cheeseburgers, trying to take care of my body better. It's a whole life. I mean, I wasn't like Nick that just ran a marathon last month in the month of December. But I did run one one time, Nick. And I thought that would be a great question for our PD staff. Which two ran marathons, you and I, you know, but. But that holistic piece is so important. And that's where I think the sacred bleed off into all areas of our life.

I think As a teenager, I would have liked to hear more about that holistic piece and less have it. God's most concerned about whether I sin or don't sin. And I was a good rule follower, so I was like, I'm going on the not sin road. But I work all the time in counseling with people who are still living under that shame cycle of my addiction or my mistakes. Are God just really wanting me not to sin? And it's such a different viewpoint when we say, no, God cares about every area of your life, and the behavior is a symptom of what's going on underneath. But what a beautiful gift to see through the eyes of our Father, Son, and spirit of desiring for us to be healthy individuals in all areas of our life and how that all comes together and integrates, and it's all one piece of who we are. Just a beautiful thought to me.

Yeah. Amen. Well, you guys have been teaching this material, you know, a long time before you wrote the book, and you continue to teach on it. As we look to wrap up here, give us a little bit of honest feedback. When parents have worked to implement this advice and these 10 principles. What are the challenges that you've most frequently heard they face? What are the things they come back to you and say, I don't know about this, or this part's not working, or what do I do? What are the challenges people face? And then what. What are some of the breakthroughs that you've seen occur when people continue to lean in and face those challenges?

Well, you know, I always love our question response time at our. At our parent training. I like question and response better than question and answers because I say, I may not have an answer, but I'll always have a response. You know what I mean? You can decide if it works for you or not, but I'll throw something out there for sure. But I think just I've always appreciated people who are teaching Nick, who give me permission to think and not necessarily say, you have to agree with everything I say. But I'm going to give you a framework to just begin to think through, take what works and leave what doesn't for you. And like, I remember one person, there's one time Tracy was with me, they said, how have your kids turned out? You know, like, you wrote the book. How did your kids turn out before we buy this book? And I said, perfect. My kids have made no mistakes ever in any area of life. So. And everybody in the crowd got a big laugh, you know, and I said, my kids are Just like your kids, they're navigating culture and they're navigating this life. And we're, we're now trying to realize we didn't do everything right to equip them, but we're, we're equipping them now as we're, we're walking along with them. So the response has been really positive in this sense. Thank you, thank you, thank you for giving voice and creating at least a framework where we can all begin to talk about it in churches and, and have a healthier way just to begin to move towards sexuality from a holistic educational approach rather than if you got problems, our church has a group for you and more shame based rather than everybody's a sexual being. We haven't done well educating ourselves or our parents and so let's do better for the next generation. So there's been a real sense of gratitude and a lot of parents saying, I didn't get any of this growing up, Rodney. And I wasn't able to give much to my kids and I could just say me too and I wrote the book and so let's learn and now do better and let's move it forward. Some of the things that I get feedback on are actually some really sad stories of kids who are choosing different values than their parents have when it comes to sexuality. And I have a real heart for these parents because I know like I was the good Christian kid following God's call on my life and I was choosing to different sexual values but I was ensnared by addiction and I didn't know how to get out of it. And so, but like some of the stories are, you know, transgender stories. My daughter in law, just two weeks ago, my, my daughter in law is moving with a fan only, you know, account online making money now and just, just real heart sad, sad stories of my kids have different values. What do I do? And so this is where chapter 10 never turn away is the heartbeat of really why I wrote the book was I wanted parents to know how to love their kids even when their kids choose different sexual values or values than they have. And I think this is the tension that we face in the Christian faith. But I think we welcome to God's world, right? This is a God that's loving humanity when humanity's taking a different course and than God originally designed. And so I'm so grateful that Jesus taught us how to live out our humanity well in learning how to love ourself and love others even though they have different values or take different pathways than we would choose. And so I think a lot of parents have expressed gratitude and have been able to walk with their kid rather than trying to just say, if you don't choose my values, I'm not going to love you or have any relationship with you. And I know this is boundaries, and this is not something we're going to answer real quickly because there's so many nuances to how we navigate this, but I do think love is the greatest power in the universe and it's the source of the divine Father, Son and spirit. And so just participating in that is really beautiful. But some parents have said things like, you've given me a framework, or my daughter already asked this and I was able to give this response. Or just some emails that just say, you know, thanks, because we're already having some healthier conversations than either my husband and I had or my wife and I had when we grew up. That's kind of what comes to my mind. Trace.

I was thinking of one young girl in our training who afterwards she said we were asking her about, like, what she learned. And she said, I learned that my parents really want to talk to me about this and I really want to be able to ask them about it, but neither of us have been able to. I was like, that's pretty profound coming out of your mouth, because I think it is very true that our young person wants to and they don't know how, and the parent wants to and they don't know how. And there's this little gap in between. And if we can help support parents and kids and teenagers with that gap, we have gone a long way to helping that family and helping them parent in this area.

Awesome. Well, Rodney and Tracy, it's been so good. Give people in 30 seconds, give your best pitch for why parents or churches should go through the parent training course.

What would you say helping kids is honorable? Dealing with your negative sexual history feels too shameful in religion. So let's start with wanting to help others. Maybe that'll give us some courage to own our own stuff and move that way. So churches be proactive on the education approach. I think it'll bear more fruit in your congregations.

And don't let culture be the sex educator of your kids.

We can do this. It's not always easy. Doesn't mean the conversations will be simple. We've got to be willing to step out at times to risk, to have courage. But I believe as we do, we'll see the good that comes from it. Because when we seek to honor God and help our kids. Like you shared earlier, Rodney, any step in that direction is better than nothing. It communicates to our kids who I really believe God has designed them to watch us as parents, to take their cues from us. And even if we're doing it without all the right answers or we haven't totally figured out, but they can see our sincerity to help and to support. And I always remind parents of this. Even if in that moment when you make that first step of trying to start a conversation with your kid and it goes poorly or they blow it off or they're like, oh, dad or mom, I don't want to talk about that, I guarantee you they've paid attention and something inside of them says, huh, my mom or dad cared enough about me to ask a question or to start a conversation that that will be a seed that bears fruit. So go after it. Moms and dads, churches, leaders, we can do this. And Rodney and Tracy's book and then the video course, both are valuable tools that you could launch this conversation in your church or in your family. And so Rodney, Tracy, thank you so much for writing the book, for being a part of the training course, and just for sharing your lives with all of us today. So glad to have you guys.

You bet. Shout out to Justin, Connor, Heather, Ellie, all those experts that made the course so awesome. Thank you guys.

And if you're a fan of the content, it would mean so much to us if you would subscribe, share it with somebody or write us a review. And if you'd like more information about pure Desire groups or resources like the parent training course or counseling, you can go to PureDesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.