394 - Educating Parents On Biblical Sexual Health

Foreign listener. Welcome back to the Pure Desire Podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed source for healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. I'm your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening Today to episode 394 of the podcast. Thanks for joining us today. As is the case throughout this month is my co host, Heather Kolb. Heather, good to see you again. How are you?

Thank you. I am doing very well.

Well, we're early in the week here when this is being recorded and in between the holidays, but I know this will come out in January. You and your family having a good holiday season so far?

Yeah, pretty slow, pretty quiet so far, which is nice.

Maybe if people are listening to this in January, it'll kind of recall a nostalgia like, oh, the holidays, they were so good. Or it'll be traumatizing. Like I'm trying to forget that my holidays were rough. But either way, hope everyone's doing well. And yeah, just really appreciate, appreciate you being on for this conversation today where we talked with a doctor, a theologian, a pastor, a counselor, Dr. Glenn Maiden, and we had a conversation about educating parents around biblical sexual health. What, what can you tell our listeners about today's conversation?

So I think that one of the things that I really love about Dr. Glenn is that he's a little bit outside of the box. And not saying that he's outside of the box as far as representing biblical truths or anything like that. But, but for me, who was raised in a church, in a conservative Baptist church, I have never heard some of the things that he talked about. And even as an adult thinking through the way that he relates scripture to our sexual health and even as a tool for parents to teach their kids sexual health, I've never heard some of these things. And so I really enjoy that. I enjoy his mix of the Bible and some science and some data. And, you know, I love that.

Yeah, it's probably going to challenge some people's paradigms today. It's going to invite them to think and maybe to think about some biblical passages that like my church probably never got preached on but have a lot to say to us. And I think again, like is probably the case throughout the series, whether you're a parent or not. There's a lot in here for each one of us because we all grew up, we were all kids at some point and we all experienced either the health or lack of health of adults around us and what they were doing with their own spirituality. And I think that had the conversation today had me thinking a lot about my own experience of what I, what I did or didn't hear about sexuality and how that shaped me. And so I think parents will get a ton out of it. It's going to make them really be thoughtful about what they do and say with their kids, but also I think instructs all of us in our own journey as well.

Absolutely. And I really think that for parents that there will be parts of it that are really empowering and I think there will be other parts of it that maybe are a little bit convicting as far as just really taking hold of the idea that the best thing that I can do for my kid is to be a healthy parent so that I can parent well, but so that I can also equip them when it comes to their sexual health.

Yeah. Well, you're in for a great conversation. A little bit more about Dr. Glenn Maiden. He has a whole bunch of initials behind his name. He's a PhD, a D man, a C Sat, a CM, 80, a CST, LMHC. If, if you know what all those mean, you're probably as smart as Dr. Glenn. And if you don't know what all those mean, it just means he's studied a lot and he knows what he's talking about. He is a highly respected clinical psychologist, therapist and counselor with extensive expertise in the treatment of sex addiction and related behavioral issues. Dr. Maiden holds a PhD in Clinical Sexology specializing in sex addiction treatment and a doctor of ministry and pastoral counseling with a focus on addiction and abuse recovery. He's a certified sex addiction therapist, a certified multi addiction therapist with advanced training in both individual and relational therapy for those impacted by addiction. Additionally, Dr. Maiden is a board certified sex therapist through the Therapist Certification association and because he didn't have enough going on, is a licensed mental health counselor. And truly in all of this, he has a passion for the church, he has a passion for parents, and as you're going to hear, he has a passion for the word of God. So you're in for a real treat as we talk with Dr. Glenn Maiden on educating parents on biblical sexual health. Dr. Glenn Maiden, we are so glad to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Nick. Hey, you are a first time guest, so tell our listeners a little bit about yourself in your own words. Who is Dr. Glenn Maiden?

So I, I have three adult children. I have four grandchildren. I've been married to the same human for 43 years.

Very good. Wow.

Pregnant pause. Did you get so I'm very grateful for that. I've been a interdenominational Bible teacher and preacher for 40 years, from large to very large churches. And eight years ago I retired and now I have a private counseling practice in the state of Oregon. I'm a licensed mental health counselor in the state of Washington. And I, I love what I get to do. It is really enjoyable. My specialties, I have a doctor of ministry in treating addiction and trauma in the church. I served 12 years in the inner city of Western Michigan serving primarily addicts and trauma survivors. And then I have a PhD in clinical sexology, the International Institute of Clinical Sexology in Miami. They let me do my doctoral work project in the book of Genesis. I mean, they're very progressive, very liberal folk, but they permitted me to do the book of Genesis as a sexual health primer for families. And so I had, I, I think it was a God thing. And they permitted me to talk about its connection to Christianity. And it was really, really enjoyable. I also have certifications in sex addiction treatment, multi addiction treatment. I'm a board certified clinical sex therapist. And I just love doing what I get to do.

Well, as you can hear, Dr. Glenn brings a wealth of knowledge and experience, a broad background to this conversation. Dr. Glenn, you've been described as a biblical sexual health educator. So that's a unique role. How do you approach the topic of sexual health with children from a faith based perspective? That's our conversation today. You are one of the guest experts in our new course, the parent training course. And we wanted to just hear a little bit about kind of your perspective of how do we teach our children on this topic of sexuality from a faith based biblical perspective. What are your thoughts along those lines?

You know, seven times in the Old Testament, the Bible states, parents teach your children. So when I read through those passages, you know, I began to reflect that never have I heard in an institution, a church institution or an academic institution a significant theology of sexual health. Always the response I get when I talk to clients about this is, oh no, no one ever talked to me about sexual health. My parents didn't, my church didn't. I talked to pastors and theologians. Nope, we never had a class on that stuff. And so I began to think, if seven times God tells us parents to teach the children, what in the world are we to teach them? So I began to look at the book of Genesis as just that, God's intention to teach the people that he loves about sexual intimacy and health. And so I believe the book of Genesis and the life of Jesus, they are the content about teaching children Sexual health and intimacy. So your question, how do you do it? Well, the word of God, the Bible, reflected in the life of Christ.

So many parents are unsure when to begin talking with their children about sex. So from both a biblical and practical standpoint, what age do you recommend that parents start talking with their kids about sexual. Sexual health and why?

So sexual health, sexual content, attitudes, behavior, it begins at birth. So the first four years of life are called the attachment period. The brain actually shapes for relationships. For example, the, the children of Gaza, Israel and Ukraine, their brains will be shaped to fear and threat. It works the same way with human sexuality. If we grew up with caregivers who are regulated, compassionate, affectionate, kind, it actually shapes the brain. So later, when children wire to relationships, they go through puberty. All I call it hard wiring. All that hard wiring is at play then when they become sexually mature adults. So the question is, when do we start? Why? Why in the world? What justification? So parents zero to four, who, who show affection to one another, parents who are not fearful about private parts, about body parts, parents who understand what boundaries are. That whole context actually shapes the brain. This research came from 1989. A Romanian orphanage was studied by researchers after the fall of communism. And what they found, it was a room full of infants. The infants by the door had 9% greater brain volume than the infants in the back of the room. What scientists believe is that the care and the nurture of the nurses for the kids by the door actually increase the volume of their gray matter in their brain. So what that says to me is that when the Bible speaks of seven times, teach your children. The parent is the primary shaper of human sexuality in a child. So if the parents are healthy, the parents are regulated. That child's brain will shape that way, you know, up to four years of age. The part of the brain that stores converts short term memory to long term memories, not developed. So typically we don't remember, but the body is remembering sensations. For example, if there's care and nurture in the family, if there's lots of love, affection, it actually shapes the brain that way. From ages 5 to 10, the brain shapes for relationships. So what that means to me is that kindergarten, third, fourth, fifth grade, all of that is essential to develop the relationship wiring of human sexuality. For example, from 5 to 10, it's okay to talk to kids about what healthy hygiene is, what anatomically correct language we use about body parts. That's just fine. We want to talk about private parts being everywhere. The that are covered by the bathing suit. There are outside parts. There's the head, hands, arms. Those are made in the image of God. They're inside parts. The heart, the lungs, the stomach. Kids understand that. And then there are private parts. And these are the. These are the anatomical parts that are covered by a bathing suit. We don't permit anyone to touch those. The average age of the first time victim of sexual assault is nine. So by the time a child is nine, it's real important that kids have anatomically correct vocabulary that children can report to the parents if someone touched them inappropriately. I just created a cartoon. It's a little girl named Taylor, and she's 9 years old. And we taught this at the church that I pastor. I pastor a small chapel for recovering people. And we taught this content to them. So girl goes home and she's playing with her friends or playing kickball, and next door neighbor comes out, he's intoxicated, and he touches her inappropriately. She said, no, you do not have consent to touch me. That's exactly what we taught those kids. She ran, told her dad, he called the cops, the cops came, they busted the guy. Best day ever. So the point is, she can understand that her body is made in the image of God, and God loves her, and that no one is to touch her without consent. So that's 0 to 4, yet 5 to 10. And then in adolescence, we're preparing for reproduction. Um, it's important kids understand when, by the time they get into puberty, what erectile tissue is, what a menstruation is, you know, all those finer details. Kids before puberty do not have sexual neural pathways. They don't have hormones that are transferring. So it doesn't make sense to give them too much information at that age. On the other hand, it's not easy being a parent of small children because kids learn from their older brothers and sisters. They go to school and they hear all kinds of content. As a father of kids, you know, five to ten, I was always, you know, asking them, hey, you know, what's going on at school? So I could at least stay even with the conversations on human sexuality. But typically, those are three age groups where we can begin teaching about sexual health.

I like how you phrase that, Dr. Maiden, because to me, it sounds like building blocks in a child's life that at the right season of life, providing the right information, the right guidance, you know, taking seriously our need to teach our children and not wait for it to be the school's job or the government's job or the church's job. But like what is my role? And in an age appropriate way, embracing that role in that season and as they age, aging with them. And we've talked about that in other conversations in this series that we really kind of change and grow along with our child rather than maybe an older paradigm that was handed to some of us. Of you don't hardly breathe a word about the body or sex until some sex talk at 12 or 13. And by then, if you haven't created some of this framework, these building blocks along the way, it's a very different conversation than if it's just a natural part of their growing process and your parenting of them along the way.

Nick, you're absolutely right. So I call it the dump truck method of teaching sexual health. When a kid's 12, 13, the parent backs up the truck, dumps a book in their lap and drives away. It just, it's, it's brute. We would never do that to kids, teaching them how to drive, would we? No, we, we get them in a class, we have them take tests, they do night driving, they do day driving. As you suggest, it builds the development, the wiring in the body so we can deal with crisis and accidents when we drive to be healthy and safe. Same with human sexuality.

And so how can biblical principles help to shape a parent's approach to teaching their kids about sexual health? Are there any, like, specific scriptures that you would recommend that parents can either study or pass along to their kids? That would be helpful.

Right? So again, I am very passionate about the Bible. The Bible was at the core of every great reformation in history, beginning with Josiah and the Book of Chronicles. They discovered the word of God. And what's interesting about Josiah's reformation was that it was immediately sexual health reformation. Josiah went out and he removed the unhealthy sexuality in their temple cult, right up to Jesus. You know, the birth of Jesus is a sexual health narrative. Zeus, who was the primary deity of the Greeks and Romans in that era, Zeus was a sexual predator. When you read his story and his narrative, I mean, he was assaulting his children and animals and it was just, he was reflective of the sexual health narrative of the Greek culture. But when Jesus was born, it was the spirit of God that came upon Mary. And it's all very gentle, all very palatable. This is some beautiful narrative for children. In the book of Genesis, chapters one through five, all those sexual health images and narratives are healthy and positive, appropriate for any child. For example, it begins with creation, the spirit of God. It hovers over the chaos, darkness. The word hover means to tenderly, lovingly care for children. And so that's a beautiful image that before intercourse is ever talked about in Genesis 4:1, the Bible begins with spirituality. It is the spirit of God. I don't think we can separate spirituality from sexual health. I think it is a secular notion. And then throughout Genesis, you have naked and without shame. God creates man and woman in his image. He says it is good. And nakedness, which is a theme, it means not only anatomical, reproductive terms, but nakedness also is connected to sexuality throughout the Bible. And so when it says nakedness without shame, that is a beautiful image for small children. That the human body and how we connect is to be without shame. Actually, when we do talk about shame, it's because sin entered Adam and Eve, sin against God, and then immediately they hide they are naked without shame, they sow, leaves. I enjoy saying, most likely it was poison oak because I'm twisted. And then. But seriously, it's important parents not project shame when they talk about these beautiful truths. I had a client once whose father, faith based client. She said every time they'd watch TV together, her father would step in front of the TV if something inappropriate came on and he would just. He would just freak out. He would say, oh, oh, my goodness. Throw out his arms and legs like a starfish and block the kid's view. So that teaches kids about fear. And I think it's important we teach them that this is without shame. And so again, he. Excuse me. Genesis 1 through 5. It's all beautiful imagery.

I love how you're connecting sexuality and spirituality, which for many of us in our experience of church wasn't what happened. You know, spirituality was over here. And spirituality only meant things like prayer, reading your Bible, coming to church, prayer meeting, you know, spiritual activities. And then there were these worldly things that the world did. And more often than not, the world had sex. And that wasn't really something the church talked about because that was of the world. And yet we all knew that our parents at some point had had sex because we were in the room as kids. But that was never talked about. And so I grew up. These are kind of these two separate realms. And I think that is a beautiful part of what you're saying, that for parents, it's our job to help our kids see now sexuality and spirituality in God's kingdom go hand in hand. And he's the author of it. And yes, it can be abused and manipulated into ways that God never designed or intended us to experience. That can have very harmful outcomes. But at its source and origin. This is God's plan, God's image, God's ideal over all of this and kind of starting the conversation there rather than, I think for too many kids in church, the conversation starts with those as, like, polar opposites, and then we spend the rest of their life trying to reconnect them. Maybe we could change that approach a little bit.

I agree. I think it's time to change. We are in the most prolific sexual revolution in history, beginning with the dawning of the Internet in 2000. You know, the. The Internet is not a safe place for children on any level, in my. In my view. And I think now is the time teaching about sexual health. The first commandment in scripture is be fruitful, multiply. The last concern of Revelation is sexual health in the new heavens and new earth. And this. This content's never been shared with me ever, and nor the clients that I speak with.

Yeah, so let's lean into that a little bit because I think for many of our listeners, and I know this was my story as I shared. We grew up in environments, if we grew up in the church that kind of uses the Bible as a paddle, if you will, or even a weapon that just when it came to sexuality, the whole message was, you know, God says, this is bad. That's sin. Don't do it. And if we grew up in an environment like that, how can we personally develop a healthier view of scripture and how we use it then to teach our kids about sex and not kind of default into that same mode of just don't do it. This is bad. God says, so how do we kind of train ourselves first if we need that? Right.

You know, I think that we begin with accurate content, accurate biblical content. I have an app called HopExp, and it's all free. Free content. I'm not selling anything, but I've identified all the sexual health terms in the Bible. Turns out 23% of all sexual health terms in the Bible first appear in the book of Genesis. So it's. It's formative. The words of Jesus that in fact, the. The birth account of Jesus uses terminology exactly like the book of Genesis, chapter four, the book of Revelation. All the sexual terms in Revelation, from the porn word group to healthy sexuality and covenant appear. All of them appear from the book of Genesis. So giving parents accurate biblical content is essential. Nearly. And I'm being kind as I can and not being generalistic, nearly every sexual health narrative in the Bible has been mistranslated. This is. It's been shocking to me. We can Trust the Bible. We can trust that it is inspired the word of God, and it is helpful. But the way it's been handled for the last 2000 years when it comes to human sexuality is problematic. The narratives of the Old Testament are there to protect families and children. It's really a beautiful story that I don't. I. I've not ever heard anyone talk about. When I first started this research years ago, this doctoral work in the book of Genesis and sexual health, I truthfully, I was afraid. I felt fear. Oh, no. What if I find something that is so atrocious and difficult that I can't live up to God's standards? Well, it's been exactly the opposite. If God is good and God is benevolent, he's going to give humans, the people that he loves, healthy sexuality, and he's going to give them the tools and the concepts and the narratives that are helpful. Like, like the book of Genesis 1 through 5, perfect and palatable for every child under the age of five. It just, it lays that foundation. You talked about Nick. 6 through 11 is actually a narrative. You know, the Noah piece on sexual health. It begins with the world going mad, God judging the world. Those terms in the Hebrew language are about sexual violence. And then in chapters 9, 10, and 11, which is the, the culmination of that piece, there is a story of Noah and Ham, him who sees the nakedness of his father. Leviticus and Deuteronomy speak about the nakedness of the father as an incestuous euphemism. So what Genesis has actually done is given us healthy sexuality in the first five chapters six through 11. What if we give this as a gift to our children? Say, you know, incest. Touching the private parts of family members is not okay. And that's something we don't practice in our family. I, I think we could have avoided so much of the pain that many of us have experienced. And then 12 through 50 in Genesis. Great stories. Do you know there's sexually transmitted infections conversation in Genesis, chapter 12. Abraham goes down to Egypt and there's this incident with the pharaoh, and suddenly all the harem breaks out in some disease. And as soon as there was obedience, there was a healing of the disease. I wonder if that could not be sexually transmitted infection and give parents a way to talk about that. And it's, it's almost comedic the way it's presented. And then you've got sexual violence. The, the piece on Sodom, chapter 19, you have rape with Shechem. There's, there's even. I don't hang on to your hats. There's even birth control in Genesis 38 with the. I'm trying to be kind to a conservative audience with the withdrawal method by Onan. And then the final narrative of Genesis is Joseph. It is the longest in Genesis, and Joseph practices regulation of sexual neural pathways. He's working for Potiphar, his wife. She finds Joseph attractive. She tries to seduce him, which is called authority rape. She is in a position of power over Joseph. Joseph not only says no, he leaves his coat behind as he flees the dwelling. And I, I love that. It's kind of an inclusio, isn't it? The Joseph story began with a coat, right? And then ends with the coat. One of hubris and pride. And the other piece, out of humility and honor for God, he regulates his sexual neural pathways. And Joseph maintains his integrity before God. And so the book of Genesis is an amazing, amazing primer for families. And these stories are great. Kids love them, we've all enjoyed them. But if we can approach them from a sexual health perspective, I think we've really got something. I have a little concern about turning all this into a book. We may miss the point that parents are responsible for their kids. In no time does the Bible say church is responsible. Well, church being institutional, church as parents and caregivers, that's different. But parents have the clear authority and responsibility of teaching kids, not institutions or academicians.

So you've given us a lot of examples, which are wonderful, of how parents can use scripture to help their kids, you know, understand sexual health. And so even today, when children are exposed to so much sexualized content, how would you suggest that parents then really in a practical way, how do they teach sexual health to their children? From a biblical perspective, but kind of navigating the minefields that kids are going.

Through today, as I mentioned earlier, I think we are in the most profound sexual revolution in history. You know, with gender concerns. What we've seen in the media in our public schools that I think I shared with some of you last podcast I did here in our community, it is very, very progressive and liberal. They're encouraging kids to middle school students to experiment sexually, same sex behaviors. There is a kitty litter box in the girls restroom for girls that identify as animals. It's, it's bizarre. And so I think what we must do again is start with healthy content and parents that are healthy, who can use anatomically correct words, who understand what the threats are in the environment that I've said it before, the Internet is not a safe place for children. And so do we have Internet crimes against children controls? Do we know where our children are going on their electronics? The porn industry has progressed since the millennium. It was at one time videos and it was images. Well, now it's live online streaming of sex traffickers. I have several adolescent clients who have connected with sex traffickers who either attempted to extort money from them or meet with them personally. This is an upgrade of the porn industry and I'm very, very concerned. Most parents can't talk about it and are fearful. And so we, we must, in a compassionate, loving way, speak about not only the healthy pieces. You know, Nick, you mentioned it. How do we communicate to people who've grown up with the dump truck method? You know, you know, I got a book when I was 12 and that was it. And then only negative messages from the pulpit. As parents, I think we can start using positive narratives from the Bible. Very healthy. Like I said, the, the, the book of Genesis 4:1 begins with, you know, Adam was intimate with his wife, that's the word. And she conceived and bore her a son. There's not detailed conversation of sexual behavior there. What you see is the word intimacy means to know. It means to connect with. It means spiritual. It's beautiful and spiritual, compassionate. And the result is they had children. I think that's perfect for a 40 year old. Oh, mom and daddy really love each other. And as a result, you are here, we're teaching, we're forming a child's brain, that it is love and intimacy. One of my favorite mentors says that sex is intimacy. And I couldn't agree more. That's exactly what the Bible says. It is not an act. It is the full perspective of being intimate with God and one another and a partner. And the result are the, are the beautiful children that we have.

Yeah, to pull together some strings of, you know, just what you're saying there. And as I'm thinking through my own experience, when I think of the book of Genesis, you know, a lot of those passages you just mentioned, I think typically got skipped over in the sermon series. We avoided talking about what happened between Noah and his sons. We don't talk about the messy passages. And in that silence, then we kind of figure it out for ourselves. Or we think the point of those passages is to kind of say, see, look how bad sexuality can be. So don't go there. The perspective that says, hey, these are here as warnings for us. These are here to show us as a foil against the beauty of what God created. And let's focus on the message of what's good and right and holy. So that now this is pulling the threads together when it comes to a culture that we're living in. That is so. And you use that word aggressive, the way it's aggressively pursuing children, Aggressively pursuing, you know what I've just called it, Customers. This is an industry driven by money and billions of dollars. They don't care about your soul or your heart. They care about your money and how much they're making by selling bodies and selling sex to the world. And so they're aggressively going after that and after children. And so on the flip side, I think. I don't know that I'd use the word aggressive as parents, but I think it needs to stir in us this desire to be proactive, to be proactive teachers and trainers and mentors for our kids. Because if we know they're entering into a world that is aggressively going to pursue their sexuality in a negative way or an unhealthy way, then we say, man, I'm going to set myself against that. And as I stand in God's word and the beauty of what he's created, I'm going to very proactively engage with my kids to shape their heart and their mind. And so that the messages that they believe most deeply are the messages they've heard from me and from the word of God and not the false aggressive messages of our world about their. Their body or what sex, you know, is being twisted into these days.

Right, Nick, I'm with you 100%. So as a therapist, what I've learned is that behind, it's called the underlying driver of all the addictions that I work with. Alcohol, drugs, fentanyl, all of it, and all the sexual dysfunctions that I treat. Underneath both of those is a sense of shame. A person feels bad about themselves, so they use a drug of choice, alcohol drugs, or they go to sex or pornography or whatever the behavior, because they feel shame and they feel pain. Well, they use until the pain goes away. But after they use, they feel more shame. Well, now there's more shame circuitry. There's more addictive circuitry in the brain. So we use again and that addictive system expands and grows. What if we stop using shame? In the practice that I have in my small world, the addictions disappear. This is, I think it is the ministry and the work of Jesus. When you read the sexual narratives in the New Testament, he never shamed people for their sexuality. He spoke compassionate truth, but he never shamed them. The woman at the well, you know, John Chapter four. She comes at midday and Jesus has a conversation. I think she was trying to seduce him, by the way. And Jesus says, well, go get your husband, dear. And she said, I don't have a husband. He said, well, you know, you're right. You've had five, and the guy you're living with is not your husband. Well, what happens even in that confrontation of compassionate truth? She. She comes to faith. I don't think he shamed her. I think. I think he was truthful with her. And he talked about water, and he talked about, you know, the kingdom of God. It was beautiful woman caught in adultery. John, chapters seven and eight. Beautiful again. She is caught in the very act. He does not condemn her. He doesn't even condemn the awful humans that entrapped her. Instead, he says, where are your accusers? She says, nowhere.

Nor.

Nor do I condemn you then. Compassionate truth. Now, dear, don't let's not do this again. Please go and sin no more. But I believe that was compassion. Truth about shame. Most of what I've heard in my lifetime about human sexuality in institutions of faith is shame driven. Don't do this. It's bad and you're bad. With regret. I believe perhaps we've assisted people in acting out their problematic sexuality.

Yeah, I mean, we might even say that message if we've heard what they've done. It's shame on you. And they're feeling that shame. But we're blind that that might be the very thing driving the behavior in a big way. And so let's take everything you just said about shame, because that's the next question, and apply it to parents who are trying to train their children in a better way. What do you encourage parents to do in these conversations in their home so that they're not creating an environment of fear or shame around sexuality, especially maybe if that's what they've been handed or what they've been up against in their own story.

This is a big deal because we. I don't think we've ever been taught how to do this.

A.

If we don't talk to our kids about human sexuality, it can create a sense of shame when we do. Oh, my. This is overwhelming. Holy smokes. What are you talking about? You know, so a. Not the dump truck method that can really trigger a deep sense of shame. I think the path forward is a. We use anatomically correct terminology.

We.

We don't use nicknames for body parts. By using accurate terminology, kids know how to report if there's been abuse. We speak about the Body parts with respect, here's an interesting factoid. There's a nerve that connects the brain to the genitalia. It's called the pudendal nerve. Pudenda comes from the Latin word pudenda. Pudenda means the shameful things. So even in the medical field they borrowed this, this very bad theology that the genitalia creating image of God is a shameful thing. Just free information. In 2016, medical students were tested on their knowledge of sexual health. They all failed. I think the average score was 66%. So medical professionals don't know it. I don't know any pastor that's ever been taught, you know, a biblical theology of sexual health. And every, all the content we've talked about and what that does, it creates shame. If I only talk about how bad something it is and it creates a shame state. On the other hand, all shame is not bad. You know, when you drive down 101 on North coast of Oregon and there is one of the city's finest in his police car and he's got a radar gun on you, I, I feel some shame. Holy smokes. Let's slow this sucker down. That's a, that's a response to, to being responsible and healthy. That's okay. It's okay to tell, to teach our kids. You know, if someone touches you without consent, that's not okay. If someone threatens you, that's not okay. It's all right for you to feel emotional about that. It's all right for you to feel pain over that, that's fine. And then come report to an adult which will help attend to that shame. But shame often isolates itself. Adam and Eve in the garden, they sin against God, pride, entitlement, they hide what they did. They actually isolated. One of the first steps of, of people who are in a deep shame state is they isolate. So I think as parents, we don't isolate our kids from these very important. I think one of the most important theologies in the Bible is sexual health. We don't isolate them. We, we don't talk about negative terms. But on the other hand, it's okay to say, you know, this is what's healthy and this is what's unhealthy, you know, for our family. I love this conversation because I encourage people, look what the Bible says and you decide as a family what's appropriate, what appropriate values for you. And so accurate terminology, accurate content, without the shame piece. Typically parents talk about just don't do this stuff. And it mirrors the sermons we've heard don't touch this. Don't do that. And again, that's problematic. When you read some of the, the commercially successful Christian works in the last 25 years on human sexuality, what you find is that they often cherry pick scriptures. That's called proof texting. I've not seen a comprehensive view of the whole Bible because it's never been taught. And I think that we can do that again on my app, hopexp. There's all this content's free. You have access. It's a bit academic, but still there's this. I believe it's accurate content. This is what the Bible says about human sexuality. And you'll be amazed at. It's wonderful. It is. It is healthy and appropriate. It talks about what's important. It leaves silent things that are not important to God. And so it's really enjoyable. Another piece that's interesting, Nick, is that when you look historically at how religious leaders have attended sexual health, it's never been from a biblical theological point of view, which is, well, this is what Genesis says. This is life of Jesus. This is revelation. It's always the cherry picking of a specific verse, it seems, and then a mystical experience. This is what I think God's telling me about your sexuality. I think that's dangerous. All the reformations of history have been founded on the word of God. From again, Josiah to Jesus, to the great reformations of the 16th and 17th century. You know only Christ, only scripture, only by faith. My view is only Scripture, only Jesus, only sexual health.

That is wonderful. So when we're talking to parents, and I know that I remember some of these days, that children have a tendency to ask questions in kind of this awkward, uncomfortable way? And so how would you suggest that parents respond to these questions in a way that is both truthful but also age appropriate?

That's so good. This, this is the. You saved the toughest question for the last great job. So let me give some framework to this response. You know, I've been a sexual health educator for 40 years. I began in a Christian academy teaching middle school students about sexuality. My goodness, House. That was challenging it. And of course, I had no idea what I was doing at the time. But what I've noticed over the years is that there are two basic responses from parents when it comes to teaching the kids about sexuality. One is what's called the freeze response. Your words. You sent me an email, kind of giving me a heads up and we're going to talk about you talk. You said hesitant. So hesitancy to talk about the Most important issue in life, our relationship with God and how that relates to human sexuality. There's often a freeze response. It's a biological, neurological response to fear or threat in which our system actually shuts down. You see, animals do this in the wild. When they're attacked by a predator, they will freeze. It's a survival technique. This often happens in the conversation about sexuality among people of faith because it's so shameful and shocking. There's a freeze response, and we can't do it. We're hesitant to do it. So there's a freeze. I was this way when I raised my kids. I just. I could barely put the words together. You know, a freeze response. And then there's what's called the uproar response. It's. It's the opposite end of the human system. You have the shutdown over here, then you have uproar to talk about. This evokes tremendous anger and. Or rage. And so my question for parents is, where do you find yourself on that continuum? Do you find yourself in a free state? Did you suffer sexual trauma? Did you suffer the shame that Nick talked about? Did you. Did you find yourself in a place where you can't even form the accurate anatomical words and what you feel is a sense of freezing? First of all, that's no one's fault. That's just the way our body responds to threat. And the other response to uproar? I. I did a sermon years ago. It was a very conservative church on Genesis 6 through 11. And the Noah narrative being more about protecting children from incest than it was about arks and animals. You know, I think the ark and animals are beautiful, true narrative. I. I think it is the. It is the color commentary. It is the. The picture framing of one of the most important conversations we have as parents. So I talked about Ham uncovering the net or seeing the nakedness of his mother as an incestuous act because Canaan, the offspring, was cursed throughout his life. That was incest, actually. Prohibition against incest. A woman in the church asked to meet with me during the week, and I thought, oh, oh, great. Get to have coffee with cool people. Not so. She was enraged that I would talk about this very delicate topic in church. And so I. I tried to reason with her. That was a bad idea on my part. She was unre. I tried to show her the scriptural content. You know, she was not interested. She was in a state of uproar. Most likely, she is a survivor of abuse herself. And even to. To approach that topic was so Hurtful, she could not do it. This is my experience with people of faith. Because of the shame and the lack of content over the years, we are unable to address this conversation because we either freeze or become very, very angry about it. Jesus in Matthew 18 and 19. It is a piece on protecting children. It's a sexual health piece. He talks about children. Let the little children, the micro children, come to me. He says, don't let anybody harm these children. If they do, it'd be better have a millstone around the neck thrown into the sea. Protect the children. And then Jesus goes into, you know, if you got a hundred sheep and one of them is missing, don't you leave the 99 and go get that lost sheep and you put them on your shoulder and you come back rejoicing. We've taken that as evangelism. It is about children and their safety, what we do to protect them. And then immediately following this beautiful piece is Matthew 18:15, which is, if someone sins well, you go to them, you talk to them. If they don't hear you, you take two or three. If they don't listen, then. Then you take the entire church. If they're still defiant, you treat them like a sinner and outsider. I wonder if Jesus isn't talking about the protection of children, that if there's a violation of the little child, well, then we confront. And then we go through this very biblical important process of confrontation and a healthy prayerful way. And then at the end, if they're still perpetrating, we dismiss them from the community and with regret. I think we've applied that story to every conflict in the church. Very few practice anyway, but. But I think it's about children, protecting them. And then the whole piece ends. It's called inclusio. Begins the same, ends the same. It again ends with children. So Jesus's main concern at the center of the Book of Matthew was the protection and health of children. I'm deeply moved by this and passionate. But until we can get to the place we're not freezing or becoming so irate and angry about the conversation, I believe that it'll be status quo. If you've noticed, every time there's a. A sexual misconduct narrative in our culture, whether it is our favorite preacher, denomination, institutional celebrity, academician, there is no course correction afterwards. There's no council of the church. What are we going to do? You know, in 2000, it broke. It was disclosed about clergy and pedophilia. Well, I've not seen church councils get together. I've not seen movements of people. I think the response has been to freeze. It's just hurtful to think about. We can't entertain that content. So I think for parents, you know, the question is, how do we talk to parents about it? Am I, am I freezing? Am I shutting down in this conversation? Or am I super angry about it? And to be able to be aware of ourselves and bring that to God, talk to a healthy Christian counselor, and then to examine the biblical content of sexuality and safety for children, I think is, I think this is a great era to be alive. What I did in my work is I used the blue letter Bible. There are lots of Bible search engines, but this is great technology. Paul the Apostle did not have, you know, to be able to examine a word throughout the whole Bible. This is a beautiful time to be alive when it comes to studying scripture and looking at accurate biblical content. So again, hesitant or overwhelmed, I think they could be post traumatic stress responses and am I healthy? Am I balanced? Am I regulated talking about this? And, and I'm going to get enough content so that I'm confident in having this conversation. For truthfully, Nick, it took me years to be able to say anatomical words without shame and embarrassment.

Yeah, well, it underscores, I think, what is a theme for us and what comes out in the parent training course is that a parent's ability to enter into this conversation with their kids is really tied to their own level of health and what they're facing in their own story. Because as you mentioned, in several different ways, if someone is stuck in either a fight or, you know, flight response or freeze, it's connected to their story, it's connected to their experience. And they can't just stop responding that way because as you said, that's, that's what their body is programmed to do. We need help to revisit those places. We need to understand what's happened to us or been done by us that's created some of that system and to be able to walk in a safe place of community and acceptance, to relearn a better narrative around our sexuality so that when our kids do bring something, we're not like, just shut down, but we're able to engage with curiosity and kindness and compassion. And, you know, I remember in our story, you know, one of my kids came home from school and asked a question that I know when I was locked up in my own addiction, if they'd have asked the question, it would have just been like, shut it. Like, my, my knee jerk reaction would have been shut it down. Like, where did you hear that? What do you think that's wrong? Like, you know, just get it away. But because I was, and this isn't credit to me, it's a really about the journey and what pure desire did in our story. I was able to respond with some curiosity. Man, tell me about that. Where did you hear that? And we had a really good conversation that I actually found out the question they asked had nothing to do with what I thought it did. They had misheard a word and put it in the wrong sentence. And in fact now, because it was so diffused and what. I couldn't even tell you what the sentence was, but I remember how I felt in the moment was like, okay, the curiosity was there first, not the fear of what's happening to my child. So I just would encourage any listener, whether you are currently a parent, you believe you'll be a parent, you're ever going to be a grandparent, you think you might work with children like the gift that you give to the next generation and to kids when you've done more of your work so that you can respond with grace and calmness and curiosity that invites the conversation, that invites the opportunity to consider the beauty of God's design and work towards health versus repeating more and more of that same message. It is just so absolutely crucial and I think reminds us why we do our own work.

Nick, would you be my pastor?

I could try.

That's good preaching. I, I love it. No, I, I resonate with everything you said. That's why the Bible seven times says, parents, teach your children. And if I surrender that responsibility to other people, I don't think it works. I, I think that we have a generation of young people who have lived through the, the neglect, the dump truck method of teaching sexual health, the shame base. And I, I don't think it's working, but I do think that being aware and parents sharing their stories appropriately with their kids and like you said, examining the content of what they're saying. You know, oftentimes kids before, before puberty, their, Their questions are not even sexual. The, they're just, they're curious questions because they don't have sexual neural pathways and, or, excuse me, they don't have active hormone transfers. So I'm with you 100%.

So we've talked a lot about anatomical body parts, biology, you know, the science and the physicality behind our sexuality, which are all very important parts of how we train our children. But training on sexuality also goes into human relationships and boundaries and then extends into those teenage years, you know, and so the building blocks you gave us, I think you gave us up to 5 and then 6 to 11 and into early teen years. But many parents, you know, they're working with their teens and into later teens when they're having hopefully very honest conversations about dating and what are healthy boundaries and how to navigate relationships pre marriage. What would you say for a parent, what is their role in educating their kids about healthy relationships and boundaries in dating and, and what that does in connection to our sexuality?

Yeah. So, you know, we've, we've talked about early childhood development up to, about puberty, you know, dating again, ongoing conversations. What I found is at about 14, my kids stopped listening to me. You know, they became experts on all topics they've never studied. So, you know, by that age we really need to have all the, all the content. We need the communication of. These are family values. So before they're 14 or so, it's important that we're sitting down at dinner and we're talking about, these are our family values on dating. So what we want to do is save genital sexual intercourse for marriage. You know, if that's a family's value, let's do that. We want to talk about intercourse, what that is, what outer course is how parents feel about outer course, which is non penetrative contact. We want to talk about again, date rate. We want to, you know, over 20% of women are date raped in college. We want to speak to that. I think we also want to talk about, you know, 50% of females now report some kind of sexual abuse by the time they're 18 and 30% of males. That's up tremendously from when I first began in ministry. Maybe it was a reporting thing, but nevertheless, this is essential content for parents because we know our kids, we know how to regulate them. We know what their buttons are. But by the time they're 14, I think it's important that they have all the content that they need to make it through adolescence. Not be guessing, you know, hey, where do we fall on this, you know, sexual behavior? Well, no, our family values have been this since the very beginning. And so ongoing conversation, we had dinner together, we with my kids and we would read the Bible together. Remember we did the proverbs. That's, that could be really interesting about sexual health. But we'd have ongoing conversations about it. This is, this is what our curfew is. This is what dating looks like, what we did for our kids. Maybe I need to apologize, but we said, you can have a hundred friends and go out together before you're 16, but you may not date alone until you're 16. You know, the jury's still out. And if that was a great idea, but that was our family value, and we, we held strong to that. Our kids hated it, but mom and I, we loved it. It's about family values. This is what we value. This is what we think's important. Your friends may have a different view, but mom and dad, we have this view. And, and that's fine. That's what it is to be a family of faith, a family. Families make those decisions, not institutionalists. Historically, that's not gone well.

Heather, you raised three boys. How did you connect some of those conversations about sexuality to later years? Dating, relationships, boundaries? What were your practices?

Well, and this is. I thought this was wonderful. I don't think my sons really liked it, but I had already been in school and learning so much about the brain and, and, and brain development and knew that their prefrontal cortex wasn't developed till their mid-20s. And so a lot of those things, like, they couldn't date until they were 18. Like the one on one date, they couldn't have that. They could go out with a bunch of friends. That was totally fine. But. But it was. And I would just tell them, because your brain's not ready for it. And after I said that a few times, then it. They accepted that as the answer. But there's so much, I think even in my personal life, but stories that I've heard of so much pain and trauma that happens in those high school years just because of dating, where it's like, let's just kind of take that off the table. And. And luckily they were fine with it after a while because the more that I told them, your brain's not ready for this. It's distracting. Why don't you do sports instead? Why don't you do this instead? Go out with a group of friends. All of those things became then the normal. And I didn't hear as much about, you know, well, so and so has a girlfriend or that kind of thing. What I heard more often was that, oh, so and so their girlfriend just dumped them and said all these mean things in the whole entire school.

Their life's a wreck.

Right. And so then it was more of a positive thing for them. But yeah, that's kind of how I approached it.

And, you know, every child's different. You know, it could be a child could handle dating when they're 18. Maybe they can't handle it even in their 20s, you know, but I think it's individual and, you know, you know your kids best, Heather, and so we need to trust you and. And not probably, forgive me, youth pastors. Probably not the youth pastor.

Yeah. I like what you were saying, Heather, that it was really communicating even your family values that were developed because of what you knew about the brain and. And just human behaviors that then was influencing the way you saw your own children and. And you didn't communicate it to them just as well. This is evil and wicked, so I'm not going to let you do it till you're 18. But it was more on the basis of I understand how our brains work and what it does to our bodies, and. And I'm trying to protect you and your future as best I can as your mom. And this is just our. You normalized it as a family value. And I think ultimately what I hear you say in your story is your. Your kids caught that they started to understand the wisdom behind it, even if maybe initially they were like, what you know, or didn't totally understand.

Yeah. And it really was helpful, I think, in the long run, because I think we were able to then focus more on them as a person. And because that's always been something that I wanted for my kids, is I want you to know who you are before you start bringing other people into the mix. And I want you to be secure in who you are and your identity in Christ and what you value before getting into a serious relationship. And I really saw that play out even as they continued to date and as they chose their spouse and went through that relationship. And so I'm. It worked out well for our family.

Yeah.

And Heather, they trust you. I. I think that's at the core of teaching and learning, is that we trust our teachers. That's why parents are given this great responsibility and not institutionalists.

Well, Dr. Glenn, this has been a great conversation. We have ranged, I would say, far and wide. We. We've delved into theology and Hebrew texts. We've talked about incest and rape and everything in between. And I'm sure at some point, maybe every listener has felt a little bit triggered of the. The enormity, in some ways of this task of, like, I'm the parent, God has put me in this role that seven times the Bible tells me to train my children. And. And yet when I think about sexuality and the conversation we've had today, I think many maybe have that feeling of being a little overwhelmed, a little out of their element. They're hesitant. They're like, this is Too much, it's too hard. Or maybe they're feeling what you talked about earlier, a freeze shutdown response or a really angry. Like, I'm going to go be a. Do you just storm into my kid's room and check every device and throw stuff like they're on the war path. What. And all those emotions that are coming out, because I think that, again, is what we all feel with sexuality. We feel deep emotions. But for the parent that's maybe feeling hesitant or overwhelmed or like this is too big for them, what encouragement would you give them about having a role in teaching and training their children?

You know, if. If we are freezing or we're really angry or we're traumatized, you know, you said it earlier, Nick. You know, become a healthy parent yourself. You know, there is nothing more tender than this story about our sexuality. There's nothing more tender or important without this. There's no next generation. Every covenant in the Bible begins with be fruitful and multiply. And so this is on God's heart. This is how God is moved. And taking care of you as a parent in my world is. Is job one. You know, when you fly on a plane and they do those really awful safety instructions and they say, you know, if oxygen, you know, cabin pressure should go down, this. This Dixie cup will fall down. And before you. You put it on your child, put it on yourself, because if you don't, you'll pass out and kill your family. So let's take care of you, the parent, and let's deal with sexual trauma, the steal. If you don't have accurate biblical content, let's do that. Let's get. Let's become confident and let's talk about values. Maybe your pastor can assist you on that level, you know, but taking care of you is job one. I call it Nick care and Heather care. How are we going to take care of you so we can take care of these beautiful humans?

God gave us encouragement from you, Heather.

I probably would say to just pick one thing, and especially like we've talked about, is that if there's something that triggered you during this conversation or just even a new awareness that you have about, you know what? Maybe I need to deal with this thing with me so that then I can help my kids better. Then do that one thing. Take that brave step, whatever it is, to seek your own personal health so that you are better equipped to help your kids when it comes to training them in their sexual health.

Yeah, yeah, start somewhere. What's coming to mind for me is one of my Favorite quotes. I've used it on the podcast before, but it says that anything worth doing is worth doing poorly. Meaning if it's worth it, start, give it a shot. And even if you do it poorly, it's worth it. And I'm thinking about what you said earlier, Dr. Glenn, that for children, silence is often interpreted as shame. And I think many of us, frankly, grew up in environments where the silence around sexuality increased the shame around what we were thinking, feeling, or experiencing. And had someone even attempted poorly to have conversations, to come alongside to be a support, it would have made a difference. And so if you're in that role as a parent, a caregiver, you know, a youth leader, and you, you don't know if you have it all together. I mean, don't just blunder your way in with no idea what you're doing. Get trained, get equipped. That's why we created the parent training course. But, but make an attempt that starts to open the doors just to show that, hey, this is something God cares about and I care about and I care about you. And let's together see how we can learn and grow in this area. And I think you'll be surprised. Christ, the impact, even if it's done poorly, the impact that that relationship with your children could have in influencing the way they think and believe about themselves, about our world, and about sexuality.

I love that. Nick. I began this PhD research in the Book of Genesis and Sexual health after my son requested I make a video for his sons on sexual health. The video was so bad, I began years of repentance. And I said, you know what? That was so awful what I did. I'm going to get a PhD and attempt to do this right for the sake of my family. And I agree with that 100%. Let's fail forward, as the great prophet once said.

Well, Dr. Glenn, you've provided us with invaluable insights today. You've helped us see connections in scripture and our theology and given us some really great ideas of how we can approach this training and teaching our children through a biblical lens, both nurturing their own sense of self worth and nurturing their faith, which I think we want to do as parents. So thank you for sharing your wisdom and providing expertise on the parent training course, which again, we want to encourage our listeners to check that out, if you haven't already. And we will put the Hope XP app in the show notes so people can check out what you're up to. Dr. Glenn, it's all free. Yeah. Any other ways that our listeners could connect with you.

Yeah. You know, on the app, there's a contact Glenn media item, so it's all. All connective. And Nick and Heather, you've been great. I really appreciate you. You know, just in. In review. These are hard topics, aren't they? You know, and. And even in our conversation, I'm finding myself freezing. I'm going, oh, my. Oh, here we go. I hope this goes well. But what if we can get to the place where this is just normal and we're talking about this the way we talk about redemption or the Holy Spirit or, you know, prayer?

Yeah. Amen. Well. Well, thank you for being a part of it. And for you, our listeners, if you are a fan of the content and these conversations, please subscribe. Share it with somebody. Write us a review, because when you do, someone else can hear this message. If you'd like more information about pure desire, groups, resources, or counseling, you can Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on, my friends, you are not alone.