395 - Parenting In A Digital Age w/ Kristen Jenson

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Hello, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 395, and joining me is my co host, Heather Kolb. Heather, welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you. Nice to be here again.

Yeah, great to see you. We're enjoying the new year. And as we're in January now, at least when this episode is being released, we have within the last couple of months released the parent training course. And regular listeners know we've been talking about it the last couple of weeks, but we're continuing in a series interviewing some of the experts and guests from that parent training course. And I know you were a big part of pulling together all of kind of the outline and the content and the guests. And so great to have you as a co host throughout this series. Today we got to interview Kristin Jensen, who is the author of Good Pictures, Bad Pictures. So tell us a little bit about what listeners might expect from today's conversation.

So she really has such a heart for educating parents and helping them to start conversations with their children, even young children, about the exposure of pornography. Because, and we have said this as well, but it's not ever going to be a matter of if your child will see pornography. It's basically when. And so she's all about equipping parents on teaching their kids how to, you know, recognize what pornography is, to turn away from it and then to tell somebody who's safe what they experienced. And even though she goes a lot deeper into some things, but it really is, I don't know, it's empowering to parents to be able to have some strategies and tips on what this looks like and how they can implement it.

Yeah, yeah. I really appreciate Kristen because she's a mom, she's a grandma, and it kind of feels like you're sitting down for coffee at her kitchen table and just in a no nonsense kind of way, talking about real things that we all need help with and maybe having the kind of conversations we never got when we were kids. And that's why I think today's episode is valuable for everyone. Even if you're not a parent or don't currently have kids in your home. A lot of what we talk about today will help us maybe see our own journey and the experiences we had as kids and conversations that we maybe missed and that I have found can be a very important way that we connect some of the dots in our own story. And so like I said, even if you don't have kids, I think there's a lot of great content here about our brain and our development that can be useful in all of our stories. And if we are parents, this is timely and helpful advice for all of us as well.

Yeah. And she was one of the experts, like you said, featured in the new parent training course and we didn't talk as much about different things. She will share a lot more insights for parents in the parent training course. Stuff that we didn't talk about today, but she is a great resource.

Yeah. As we mentioned, she is the author of Good Pictures, Bad Porn Proofing Today's Young Kids and there is also a junior version available for preschool ages. She is a prominent author known for her work on helping children understand and navigate the digital world, especially around this topic of pornography. And in many ways, she provides parents with tools to have important conversations about healthy screen habits and digital safety. So listener, we know you're going to enjoy today's conversation with author Kristen Jensen on parenting in a digital age. Well, Kristin Jensen, welcome back to the program. So great to see you today. Thanks for joining us.

Thank you, Nick. It's great to be with you.

And Heather, well, for those that may have not heard you on the podcast before or know a lot about you, could you just give a quick introduction into who you are, where you live and what you do?

Yeah. Well, I'm a wife married to a wonderful husband for many years. I have three children, one, two daughters and my son is in heaven waiting for us. And I have a cute little dog. I live in eastern Washington. And I first, I never planned to go into this space of, you know, helping parents protect their children from pornography. I 12 years ago or so, gosh, I'm losing track. But I met a family and the mother called me one night and so turns out her son was sexually molesting his younger brothers and sisters from the 14 year old to the 4 year old. And that was really the genesis of this book project because I also found out that pornography was involved. And just like how do you start these conversations with kids so that they know, they have a heads up and they know what to do and they see it. So that's kind of how I got into this. And I'm kind of one of these people that just like jump in the pool and then figure out how to swim, which is not always the pleasant.

Way of doing things, but it's how we learn best.

Sometimes, I don't know, maybe, yeah, Maybe. So I just thought, well, I could write a book like this for kids. I have some writing experience. I have a degree in English literature and master's in training. So I just thought, this is what I'll do, and gathered a lot of wonderful, expert people around me. And so that's kind of what I've been doing the last dozen years to help parents start to have these conversations so that they can really be a force for good in their children's lives, a force of strength in this particular digital safety. So that's a little bit about me. I like to garden. I like to go out in nature. And when I get the chance, I like to cook, actually, too well.

Awesome. We have recommended your book, Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, all the Time. We're encouraging parents to go through it and leaders and anyone that's working in a space with children to develop their understanding of this topic and maybe how to have those conversations. Because as I was saying, many of us grew up in environments where that just was not modeled well for us. And so I think so many of us come into this space of being parents or working with kids and need to learn how do I have healthy, appropriate, safe conversations to equip my kids or kids that I'm working with to really be wise in this area. One of the things I appreciate so much about your book is you don't just go into an ethic of, this is bad, don't do it. But you really help kids try to think through some of the why, even including some brain science. So tell us a little bit about that, like what inspired you to take this very kind of holistic approach, including helping kids understand how their brain works when it comes to helping them understand the world and pornography.

Well, I think as I did some research, I started to see some great resources, some videos about how addiction plays a part, you know, with pornography and how pornography becomes an addiction. And I had known a friend of mine had been a therapist, and she dealt with people that had pornography addictions. And so I felt like if we could just explain some of the practical, we could help children understand their brain and how it worked and why it was vulnerable to this kind of input, right. That we could go a long way in what I call porn proofing. Kids now, that's an ongoing process, right? It's not like one shot or one pill or one check the box activity. But I feel like also, you know, it's really important for us to understand how our brain works. And I don't know, I grew up liking science. My Husband's into it. My daughter's a data scientist. We're kind of a sciency nerd family. So maybe that's it too. But I think that all children should understand not just how pornography can become an addiction, because unfortunately, that's the easiest addiction for them to acquire, but how other things can become an addiction. And it's really all the same process that we talk about in the book. So, yeah, I think that's very important for children to understand and also for all children. All children, no matter what. You know, parents in. In that have, you know, a faith practice of faith. They know how they have resources for how to talk to their children about their faith, how to teach their children about their faith. But there just wasn't any resources. There weren't any resources to teach kids about, you know, parents had to talk to kids about pornography. And so I felt like making the book kind of faith neutral in a sense, but more on science then parents can fill in those gaps if they want as far as their faith and their beliefs. But it's not enough to just say, it's bad, so stay away from it. At least that's. I don't know about what you've seen, but, like, people have been saying that for a long time, and it doesn't seem to have moved the needle, right? So I felt like a, you know, adding science to this. And for those that are believers, you know, you believe that God created your brain. God created all of this. It's good to understand all of it.

Well, I love that, and I agree so much, because as anyone who's had kids knows, and I've had four of them, and all of us in. In this conversation have kids that are. Kids, especially as they're younger, are so great at asking the why question. It's like, why and why? And I remember sometimes just feeling like my kids were wearing me out with the why this and why. Dad, you're like, just, you know, because I said so. And in this area, if that's all we do, well, it's bad. Don't do that. And they say, why? Like, well, because I said so, or the Bible says so. Even if that's true, or even if we're asking our kids not to do something because we say so, if. If we're not helping them, even in their younger years, understand some of the why behind it, that there are reasons we're protecting and helping and that we're not keeping something good from them, we're truly protecting them from something that could be very destructive. That's harmful, that's detrimental to relationships. I mean, all the things we know and. And that doesn't mean we are able or ready to explain all of it to a younger child. But if we can begin to give them some of that why and it connects in their brain, then I think they're participating with us versus it just being almost creating greater intrigue because, like, man, there's something here that mommy and daddy really don't want me to do or see. And they don't. They won't tell me why it's kind of now being kept from them in a way that I have found in my own experience as a teenager especially. I don't remember as much as a kid, but as a teenager, if some of those questions weren't answered, the way it elevated curiosity, the way it elevated my desire to participate in something, because now it felt like intriguing and taboo, and I didn't know the why, so now I wanted to understand it for myself. But if we help answer some of that why, then I think our kids are far more equipped to have some of that answer for themselves. And not just because it's bad or because I said so.

I was thinking that same thing, that sometimes when you, like you had mentioned Kristen, if you just say, don't do that, that even just those words cause a child to think, oh, well, why? What's the matter with it? And it does. I noticed with my boys that it almost kind of fueled the fire, so to speak, and then they were even more curious about it.

So you talk about curiosity, and that is a real thing. Kids are curious. They're wired to be curious. Their brains are wired to be curious. I mean, you can get into, you know, mirror neurons and how these mirror neurons help children imitate what they see. Adults do. And so it's because children are wired to be curious. We need to start these conversations at a young age and talk about that curiosity. You know, in the book, we mention it as well, kids may be curious, but it can lead them, you know, into trouble. And you can have those conversations about curiosity and why it's good, why we have to manage it. Right. So very important to recognize the curiosity factor and to talk about it, especially when it comes to pornography, because it's so, so accessible.

You participated in Pure Desire's new parent training course.

Yay.

I know. Wonderful. And provided your expertise on porn proofing and using that language. And so can you explain exactly what that means and why it is so important in today's digital age?

So, you know, when you think of porn proofing. You know, think of waterproofing, right? You think of like, well, you put a jacket on a kid to go outside in the rain to help them not get wet, to help the water kind of roll off of them. And so they don't get hypothermia, right. They don't get harmed by it. That doesn't mean they're not going to get hit by the rain. Right. And that a few drops aren't going to fall on their hands and their face or whatever, but that by and large, you know, they're able to reject and be protected from that, from the rain and from pornography. So I would say that porn proofing is an ongoing. You know, you don't just porn proof your child and there you're done and boom. It's an ongoing process of creating a disposition in your child to reject pornography. Knowing why it's important, understanding that their curiosity will probably lead them to be curious about it. But how you will be there to answer all their questions. So that's kind of the model, is this idea of porn proofing, creating that disposition, creating what I call an internal filter. Right? Because we can put filters on devices and on our WI fi, but the only filter that's truly going to work wherever they go is an internal filter. And that is something they need help developing. And it's something that has to be continuously, I don't want to say updated, like you update your browser or your software, whatever, that has to be continually updated and continually strengthened.

Yeah, but you're right, because technology keeps advancing. The gadgets and tools and access we have in our homes keeps changing them. And I'm hearing now washing machines that are Internet connected and are telling your phone when the load is done, or if something's amiss, and if something's connected to the Internet, sooner or later it could also be accessible to pornography. And so we do have to have new strategies, new methods, continue the conversation. And that metaphor of the rain jacket, I think is so wonderful because it does give that awareness of sooner or later you're going to be out in the rain and we don't want to develop a lifestyle. And I've heard some Californians are this way. No offense to my Californian friends, but like, when it rains, they just don't go outside. You know, like, well, it's raining. I'm just staying inside. Which is. It's a nice idea, but if you live in Washington or Oregon, that's not going to be a very successful way of navigating life to just Never go outside. And as sad as it might be for us to say it, we are in a day and age in our technological era, where someone being exposed to pornography is a certainty it's going to happen somewhere at some time, those raindrops are going to fall on them. And the question isn't will it happen? But it's when it happens, will I be prepared and have a rain jacket on so I know how to handle it appropriately so I'm able to stay safe and enjoy the world that God made us to enjoy? Because that's the great thing about a raincoat. When we're wearing it, we can do all kinds of wonderful things on a rainy day and still stay warm and dry and not catch hypothermia. And in the same way, in a technological world, there are wonderful things about it. And if we have strategies to keep our minds and our hearts safe and resilient to the garbage that's out there, then we can enjoy some of the real benefits of this world and the advances of technology and not just feel like we have to take the stance of, you know, totally removing ourselves from it, because that's the only way to stay dry, to use that metaphor.

When you mentioned that, I was thinking about how in the past I bought, you know, like, a new pair of leather boots, and the first thing that you do is you waterproof them. Not because they're never going to get wet, but so that when they get wet, they're resilient to it. And so I love that. Just putting that in the same context as how. How when we give. When we have these conversations with our kids and we give them this information and we help them with the why, that just helps them to be far more resilient to when they stumble across porn. And even if it's not stumbling, but even in their decision making, you know, choosing to pursue porn or not choosing it.

So, Kristen, you talked about this being an ongoing conversation, you know, needing to update the software as our kids grow. What are you seeing as some of the biggest challenges that parents face when trying to protect their children from inappropriate online content? And what recommendations do you have to help with these challenges?

I think one of the challenges is that parents may underestimate the amount of access kids have to the Internet and to the bad stuff on the Internet. Studies have shown that parents vastly underestimate this. And so that's kind of a hurdle you have to get over. You have to understand that whatever you think your child's risk is, why don't you just double that in your mind, and I know that's a little disconcerting, but you can do. You can do things to help. So. So you want to be aware. You can't tackle a problem if you don't know the extent of it, or you can't tackle it very well. I don't think. I think that if you know the extent of the problem, that helps. So that's one thing. Another thing is, again, the access. Kids get into porn in so many ways. And even if your child doesn't have a phone, which I hope they don't till they're at least 14, and then I hope it's a safe phone, not only for pornography, but for, you know, the brain. But I think that the access. So you may have an iPad or a tablet which has, like, a little art program on it, and maybe you don't have a browser on there. Maybe you shut everything down. But I've seen kids take 16 steps and go through that browser, I mean, go through that little art program and figure out a way to get to YouTube. And so kids are smart and they share Intel. And so it's important that we recognize that children can access pornography. And in so many different ways, anything that's connected to the Internet, anything has the risk of exposing a child to pornography. So, again, it's important to talk to your children, to build this disposition, to teach them what pornography is, why it's harmful, and what to do when they see it. So that's the advice I have, is to make that an ongoing conversation. A lot of people will use the articles at Defend Young Minds coming to their, you know, mailbox every week to kind of provide a bit of a, you know, talking points. Right here are some things you can discuss with your child. Now, some of them may not be as appropriate for young children as teens, but again, to be aware of what's happening. So what I like to say is, parents, get the facts, arm your kids, continue the conversations, and then rinse and repeat, right? Get the facts, keep getting the facts, keep yourself aware. And we put out a lot on this topic on social media, on Instagram and Facebook, and then, you know, arm your children. And this is ongoing. We have various resources, including reading good pictures, bad pictures to them and doing that on a regular basis, reviewing it, and then, like I said, continuing the conversations, not only with your children, but I would say with your children's friends, parents, you know, bringing in a community or the people that you meet at church or whatever, bringing in that community. So it's not just, you but it's other parents that are also committed to, you know, working on this problem together. And then you have a support group, you know, that you can go to. And that's really important too. So get the facts, arm the kids, continue the conversations.

What I hear you saying, Kristen, is just how important it is that parents stay engaged. And I think we, we might have a tendency because life is busy and we all get busy. It's like, well, I, you know, I put accountability software on their phone and I'm, I'm, you know, and I trust my kid. They're good kids. I'm sure they're fine. And in some of that assumption, it leaves this large gap where so much can be happening that we don't know about. And our kids may have some natural hesitation to bring something to us that's negative or bad, even if it happened accidentally or incidentally. And those are the kind of things that I've seen accumulate because they're not being talked about. There's not an environment where the kid can bring it to the parent and have just a natural conversation about it. And so as those things start to build up, it becomes this bigger and bigger chasm between what the, the kid or teenager is experiencing and what the parent knows. And this was some of my own story. It's like, well, by the time I really realized, boy, I should probably talk to my parents about this, there was so much water under the bridge that I hadn't brought up. It was just easier not to and to actually go to other people like my youth leader. And I'm thankful that God put them in my life, but it just didn't. I didn't know how to start the conversation because now there was too much to bring up. And yet had my parents. I don't say this in any way to blame my parents. They did the best they could with the tools they had because those conversations weren't happening. It just made it harder and harder for me as the kid to ever bring that up, even though I really did need help from them.

That's why I say start young, start early, early as soon as they have any access to the Internet.

So on that note, one of your main goals is to provide strategies for parents to discuss program pornography with their kids at an age appropriate way. And so how would you suggest they do that without causing any form of shame or embarrassment?

So, first of all. Well, we have a free downloadable guide from Defend Young Minds which is called how to Talk to Kids about Pornography. It's a quick start guide, so sets you up with some really good statistics and then some really great tips on, you know, how and where to have these conversations. So that's a free download. Just go to defend young minds.com and get that. Now I would say again, to start in an age appropriate way. That's why, you know, I wrote Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, Porn Proofing today's Young Kids for children to be read aloud. To be read aloud to children ages 7 to 11. And then I started getting questions. I remember the day I was speaking to a group of parents and a mother came up and she said, well, do you have anything for preschoolers? I was just like, felt like someone like kind of punched me in the gut. And I'm like, what? And she says, yeah, preschoolers. And I look around and I'm thinking, every three year old's on an iPad. I mean, not every three year old, I hope, but you know, there are a lot that use it. And I thought, okay, obviously this is necessary. And that led. And there were many other parents that asked for it. So that led me to write Good Pictures, Bad Pictures Junior, A Simple Plan to Protecting Minds. And that's a very easy, gentle way to begin these conversations. And it's so important, like you said, Nick, that you have like, you open the door, you normalize this conversation, you take the lead as the parent. You know, I have heard people say, oh no, well, just wait until your kid comes to you. You know, that's just not. In the rarest occasions does that happen. I mean, studies show the kids and all the anecdotal stories I have is that no, kids do not. They hesitate. First of all, they might be afraid they're going to lose their device or you won't ever let them play with the kid that showed them porn on the school bus or in the playground. You know, they're afraid and this is strange and this is new and nobody told them about it and nobody warned them. They didn't have a heads up. They're caught off guard and we all hesitate. We all hesitate, hesitate to take action if there's a little bit of confusion right in your mind as to how to proceed. I was just trying to think of an example of, you know, something that I knew I needed to do, but I wasn't quite sure how to start, right? So I just put it off. And I think a lot of parents do that. We just put it off. We don't know how to do that. And kids do it as well. So we're all humans, we all just do the best we can. But the good pictures, bad pictures book do offer a very comfortable way to begin this conversation with children age appropriate so that they can have that heads up. They know what to do. They know exactly what to do when they see pornography and whether that's when they're very, very young or when they're a tween, know if that you've been having these conversations. What. So I'll tell a story that I've told many times before, but it's worth repeating. And it's about a nine year old boy who his mom read him good pictures, bad pictures and he, you know, was shown pornography. A few days later on the school ground, a friend of his came over with the cell phone smartphone, showed him pornography and he recognized it. So he knew what it was and he knew to turn away and he knew what to do. And when he went to his mom, he said, I was scared, but I knew what to do. So let's give children that gift of knowing what to do and bringing to us so that we can use our prefrontal cortex, right, that's developed and help them because they're very vulnerable to this, they're very vulnerable to pornography because they're curious and they don't have the breaks in their brain. And we talk about that in the book. But the breaks in your brain aren't developed, fully developed until you're in your 20s. So let's give kids a chance by helping them with our brain and connecting with them. And like you said, no shame. There's no shame in this. We don't make it shameful at all. In these books we say it's harmful to you and that's why we don't want you to watch it. We're not shaming any kid for being curious about it at all.

I appreciate those examples and I think for a lot of parents there is that feeling of, well, I don't know all the answers or what if they ask me questions and I'm not sure what to say. And sometimes in that uncertainty you said we put it off. I think we feel like if I can't do everything, our default is then I do nothing versus saying, well, I could do something, I could begin the conversation, I could ask the question. It's why in the parent training course that's just come out. One of the things that parents are encouraged to do is practice conversations. And I've heard our speaking team and Heather say at events that look in a mirror and hear and watch yourself saying words that maybe you're not comfortable saying. Out loud. Because if we grew up in an environment where this was a taboo topic and our parents didn't bring it up with us, it may be difficult for us to say words like sex and pornography out loud. Parts of the body. And if we're not comfortable, our kids are going to pick up on that. And so in the mirror, just practice saying the right words, the right anatomic parts of our body, and getting to that place like, okay, this can be a normal conversation. Because if we're still at that point of really stuttering and haven't even thought about what word we would use, it will be challenging. So prepare a little bit. Get, get comfortable to that point where you can enter in to the beginning of a conversation. And I think then trusting that God will use that, use that open door to create that connection with your kids and you know, what needs to happen from there, I think the Lord will lead you.

And I think that it's even. I mean, having the conversation about pornography is great, but it really has to be about all sexual health. And so I think that there are parents out there who feel uncomfortable saying all the words. And I mean, I have three adult sons, but we had those conversations about erections and wet dreams and pornography and arousal and all of those things when they were young, so that then it wasn't a surprise for them, but also so they didn't feel any shame about when that just physiologically is something that's happening in their body, not because they're thinking anything bad, but being able to have those conversations with them, I think was really helpful.

Absolutely. Because children deserve to have help with this problem. They deserve to have our help. And even if we can't do it perfectly, even if we still feel a little nervous, you know, it's worth it to begin. And once you begin, it gets easier. Once you begin, you know, with anything, the first time, it's always a little hard. You know, the first time you do anything. The first time I did a radio show, I did it, it was like in London. I wasn't in London, I was here. But like. But I was so nervous and freaked out, and now I'm not because I've done so many. But the first time with anything is going to be hard. So get over that first time and then treat yourself to something, I don't know, feed your ice cream addiction, whatever. I think that, you know, you need to pat yourself on the back and congratulate yourself for every little thing that you do to help your children in this, in this battle, in this Fight. It is an ongoing battle. And you don't have to be perfect. You do not have to be perfect at this. Just get started and love your child and let them know that you are there to have these conversations with. And I love it. We have a couple of our, you know, an article, why good kids, you know, get pulled into porn. And it has nothing to do with them being good or bad. Porn is bad, and they are curious. And so it has nothing to do. Kids that get into porn are not bad, but it can be harmful to them, and it can be and can lead them to make very bad choices, to be honest. But these kids are not bad.

What you're saying underscores why it can be so helpful to start early with our kids if we're able to. And I know some listeners, and you're like, well, it's too late for me now. But for many those early conversations, you know, when your kids are three, four, and five, they're. They're pretty basic conversations. They're pretty simple, they're straightforward. They tend to be more about, you know, private parts and why we do or don't wear clothing. I mean, the kind of things that a parent's like, well, I could do that. And then as your kids age, the conversations can grow more serious. But if you've already begun using some of the, the right words, the right terminology, making it clear to your kids, hey, we talk about these things. This is part of growing up and being a human being. In our. Then when the conversation, whether it's 10, 11, 12, 13, as it's getting more into what's in the world and pornography, there's already that foundation. And so that's why I think not waiting until they're that age to have some of these conversations is so crucial. So, Kristen, I want to circle back to something. We talked about this a little bit already. But for some parents, maybe the concept of talking about the brain and how it's all connected might feel like too much for kids to understand. And why would I go into that? So tell us a little bit more about the idea of using a brain model to explain how pornography can impact us and tell us a little bit more how the model works and why you believe it's effective in training young kids.

Well, first of all, we're making it kind of like a science thing, right? So there's. No, it's not. We're bringing it out of this place where it's only like a moral thing we're talking about. It's a brain health thing. Right. And so I believe it can lead to immorality. I've heard many stories of this, but in a young child, we can start by saying, look, we are teaching you to take care of your body and we teach you to take care of your teeth and, you know, all the other parts of your body. And, and we're also going to teach you to take care of your brain. And so I believe that that's really important. And then in the book for 7 to 11 year olds, we talk about what's an addiction, right? And we talk about the thinking brain, which is, right, the prefrontal cortex and the feeling brain, which is deep inside the brain, the more primitive brain. And we talk about the difference between those brains but how they work together and how it's so important that they work together, but that when you have an addiction, the feeling brain is taking over. And really it's the thinking brain that needs to be in charge because it's the thinking brain where we learn right from wrong and we learn to have self discipline. And so I mean, anything you can teach your child about the brain is fascinating to them. And then they're more motivated, hey, you know, I need to protect my brain, my one precious brain. So I think that is very helpful, very motivating to children. And again, continuing these conversations as they get older, talking about the issues with the brain and you can go in deeper. We have lots of articles on addiction and how pornography becomes an addiction. We talk about it in the book, but we go into more kind of science on our website. And so, yeah, kids deserve to understand how their brain can be vulnerable to addictions of all kinds, but especially pornography. Because what can kids, what can an 8 year old get to? They're not going to go to the, you know, store and buy cigarettes, right? Because, because they're not going to sell them, right. They're not going to go to the store, buy alcohol. You know, you have to show your license if you look young enough. Right. We've put those safeguards in place, but we haven't put enough safeguards in place for pornography. So unfortunately, pornography is the easiest way that kids can gain or develop an addiction. Pornography and gaming and other kinds of those kinds of things, but pornography. I once talked with a man who ran a center for people like a, you know, where you went and stayed for weeks to overcome a gaming addiction. And he, and I asked him, I said, well, you don't say anything about porn on your website, but is that a problem? He goes, 100% of the young men that come here. It was for young men who come here with a gaming addiction, have a porn addiction. So I thought, that's very interesting. And I'm not surprised. Again, why wouldn't we teach our children how their brain functions? You know, how their brain and kids love it. Like, I knew that the book would be good for parents. It would help solve this problem, right? But I didn't realize. I've had so many parents tell me this book is my kid's favorite book. I'm like, okay, that's great. But I think it's because they feel empowered. They don't feel shamed. And they're interested in. They're interested. So that's why I think that's so important for us to teach children what pornography is, why it's harmful, and what to do. What's the plan, you know, when they see it. We do this for so many other things, so many other dangers, you know, fire. Here's what we do. Here's what we've got planned. This is what you do if you see, smoke, whatever. I mean, we have these things that we can put in place. We need the same kind of fire drill for pornography exposure, because it will happen, you know, fire. Your house most likely will not catch on fire, but your kid will see porn. And it, it, it. I hate that. I hate that. But it's the reality, right? It's the world we live in, not the world we wish we lived in, not the world we grew up in, not the world our parents grew up in. It's the world that your kids are growing up in. And I have. Now I have grandchildren. I didn't when I started reading this book, but I kept thinking about them, you know, And I now have three grandsons, and they're young, and we are reading them good pictures, bad pictures. And we are reading them these books and also planning to take them through the course that we have, which is brain defense, digital safety. So these are things that we are trying to do to help my own grandchildren who will not be immune. Who will not be immune to this problem. So that's why we're here, is to help parents have these conversations and support you along this way. It's difficult, but you could do it. You could do it.

That's right. That's right.

So many parents wonder about the growing prevalence of pornography, and especially as their children, you know, have smartphones and have tablets, and so they have access to anything that they would find online. And so what advice do you have for parents in terms of setting digital boundaries and how to encourage their children to still have, you know, healthy tech habits.

So healthy tech habits, first of all, they will, they will be more influenced by what they see you do than what you tell them to do. So when you talk about modeling, modeling healthy tech, tech habits, it's so important for parents to model healthy tech habits themselves. I have become very aware of this and I try not to be on my phone when my grandkids are around. And if I have to be, then I narrate, I say, hey, I just got a text from your mother. I have to reply. Or I, you know, whatever, I narrate and I tell them and then I get off the phone and I put it away. So modeling is very important. However you want your kids to interact with technology, you have to model that behavior. There are many, we have resources about the age at which you give a smartphone. I will say that. And the age at which you allow them to have social media, which can also be things like Pinterest. You know, you don't think of Pinterest and social media, but there's a, there's a social media aspect to it. So you've got to kind of also like broaden your, your definition of that. But there are, again, modeling it, but also teaching it. So kids learn by observation, they learn by instruction, and they learn by their own experience, right? So observation is modeling good tech habits, instruction. You definitely want to instruct them. You definitely want to use your training course to help them and go through all of the different aspects of. Because you've got to have a, you need to have. It's just not a one thing, right? You need to have a comprehensive approach to technology because it's in everything. Like you said, it's in the washing machines. It's, you know, we get a text if our Samsung, you know, refrigerator needs a new filter, you know, that kind of thing. So it's everywhere. And you know, you didn't ask about this, but AI is also something that is becoming part of everything that we do. And unfortunately, you can do things with AI. For example, there are new to Phi apps that can take a picture and of somebody with clothes on and strip off the clothes and put in a body, a nude body, not exactly theirs, obviously, but there's so many things that kids can do and to be able to talk to them and say, we want to use technology wisely so it helps our family, but it can be used in bad ways. It can be used to do bad things, harmful things. So let's talk about that too. So we can, you know, definitely take advantage and benefit from all the good and avoid the harms of the bad.

There is a whole episode that could be done there on AI and what are we doing there and the ways that it can capture the imagination and curiosity. And that's why I think again, it underscores why it is so important that parents be engaged in this area. Because whether it's AI or technology or whatever the next thing is, it will only continue to advance. And we can't just have this posture of trying to push it away. It's more the conversations and the environment that says we can learn to approach this with health and resilience. And I think when you talk about modeling, there's probably a whole bunch of us listening that just felt some deep conviction of, oh man, how much am I on my phone? How, how much am I looking at a screen when I should be looking at a person? And, and to know that our kids really will model what they see in us is a reminder to us as moms and dads and parents and youth leaders like that we need to have health, we need to be practicing these things. And maybe we're not teenagers, but we are equally susceptible to our brains getting hijacked by technology and obviously pornography as well. But just to underscore what comes out in the parent training course that our own journey is so much of what will become our kids journey. And so paying attention to that is absolutely crucial.

You had mentioned about having, you know, not giving children a cell phone until they're older. And I think that that is really challenging. I was one of those moms that my kids didn't get a cell phone until they could drive. So until they were 16, because it was an issue of safety and they would, needed to have access to, to me if something happened when they were driving. But I was very unpopular for a lot of years. My home. And then, you know, the oldest child got a cell phone and then as they got to driving age, they got a cell phone. But it still was, you know, a lot of parameters, a lot of conversations, not giving them access to everything. But it's, it's really difficult because for years you hear, well, so and so has a cell phone. Everybody at school has a cell phone. How come I don't have a cell phone? And having to then give them a why, you know, and explaining to them this isn't good for your brain. This is just one more thing that's gonna distract you and you know, just all of those reasons. But it's difficult. It's difficult to be that parent. And so just to encourage parents that it can be done, but it's gonna be a battle for a lot of years, you know, just too. Because everybody has cell phones.

Yeah. Kristen, throughout this episode, you've used some words of healthy and unhealthy when it comes to this topic. And for many parents, that may be new because we think of this as good and bad, right and wrong. I mean, even the title of the book, good pictures, Bad Pictures and black and White, we kind of like, in some ways, those two opposite ends of the spectrum, healthy and unhealthy, might feel like a new approach. So talk a little bit about that. Do you feel kids are grasping that concept? Well. And what kind of feedback have you received from parents on this kind of terminology?

Yeah, so we, you know, I did name the book Good Pictures, bad Pictures, and I'm sticking with it because children are black and white. Children do need to see clearly, you know, what is good and what is bad for. For them. Right. What is bad for them? I didn't name it, you know, healthy pictures, unhealthy pictures, because, you know, a brownie is probably not healthy, but we still eat them once in a while. Right. So I feel like it is important to talk about good and bad, but it's also talking about what's good for you and what's bad for you. Right. So what's healthy and what's not healthy? And I would say that parents really appreciate this resource that's for children. Now you can talk to your children about, you know, healthy tech habits, about what's healthy for the brain. Again, we have so many articles about that. For example, even talking to them. When you talk about sex. Right. You know, pornography, you may have a version. Here's what the healthy ideals and concepts around sexual. But if you want to look at porn, it portrays the absolute opposite. So, for example, you know, I want my kids to think about sex, and we don't often think about, like, oh, we want our kids to have a great sex life. Right. But we do actually. We may not say that, but, like, we do when they're adults, when it's appropriate, when they're in a committed relationship, like marriage. And I feel like, you know, we need to be very clear about why porn is so unhealthy and why it will take them away from being able to have, you know, to enjoy sexual intimacy when they're married and when they're, you know, when it's appropriate. I feel like the more we can clearly delineate you know, healthy sex is loving, right? Porn sex is not loving. It's violent. It's often violent and degrading and disrespectful. Right. But healthy sex is respectful. Healthy sex treats the person as a whole person. Right? Their personality, everything about them is involved. It's not just body parts. Right? And that's what porn does. It objectifies people. And when you think about it, we talk about this in good pictures, bad pictures, just briefly, you know, when you objectify a person, you can hurt them because you can kick a ball and not feel bad about it. Right? Ball can't feel anything. When you objectify a person, it's the same thing. It's easier to hurt a person when you objectify them. And that's what pornography is doing, especially to women. And so, so important for us to clearly delineate. And we have an article about this, you know, how you can clearly delineate between what healthy sex is and what porn sex is. And I believe that that is especially as they get a little older, 11, 12, after, you know, 13, as they get into those ages, they can more. They can better understand that difference and see it clearly. And I think if kids could see that clearly, again, they would have a strong argument to help them reject it. Because again, you can't just say it's bad or even it's bad for you. You need to explain why. And then what are the consequences of, you know, and I'm sure you could speak to that as well. What are the consequences of. Of taking that into your mind and why you would want to avoid that?

Yeah, yeah. It goes back to that conversation we had about the why question. And I think when our kids have some of the why's answered, they can begin to internalize this journey as not being something that mom and dad want for me or what they're telling me to do, but more internalized. Say, this is what I want for myself. This is the kind of relationships I want to have, the kind of friend I want to be, the kind of person I want to be in the world, the kind of marriage I want to have someday, when they want it for themselves, when they want to be resilient because they understand the goodness and the health involved. I think that changes the equation from being your mission to help your kids be healthy to becoming their desire to live out a good and healthy life. And it just seems that should be a crucial part of training and raising our kids, is at some point there has to be a handoff there. You know, when they're Four, five, or six. It might be. No. This is mom and Dad's plan for how you're going to live in this world. But at some point, they have to have ownership of it and a desire for it or it won't last. And so I think helping answer all those why questions is. Yeah. Just absolutely crucial.

Yeah. So empowering to them. So, Kristin, what would you. What final words of encouragement would you have for parents, especially if they're feeling a little bit. Bit overwhelmed about what it looks like to guide their kids into, you know, a healthy online experience? What would you say?

Yeah, I would say just take the first step. Take the first step. Whether that's, you know, whatever that is, it could be downloading the guide that we have. It could be purchasing good pictures, bad pictures, or getting it out at your library. You know, so many libraries have these books. But just take that first step, then take the next step. You know, one step at a time. We can do things one baby step at a time. Right. It's too much to just take the whole thing on. You know, I get it. I totally understand it. I do the same thing with problems and issues and projects that I have. Like, just take that first step. It's amazing, the power in taking the first step. And I would just encourage you that you can do this. Hundreds of thousands and millions of other parents have done this. And the stories I hear is that once you start, that's the most difficult thing, you know, to begin. Once you're over that, it becomes normal, it becomes easier, and there's just a feeling of relief, you know, it just comes off your shoulder, you know, relief. That's. I remember one mother telling me that she was so worried about, you know, this problem. She was a social worker, and she didn't even know how to talk to her kids about pornography or boys. And she was so relieved to have the resource, to have good pictures, bad pictures, to begin that conversation that can be so protective. And so I would just encourage you to take the first step. I know you can do it. I know God is on your side, and your kids deserve it. No child deserves to face the foreign industry alone. And you can be there with your child. They deserve your help. They need your help. And it doesn't matter how much you understand about technology, just get in there because it's that internal filter that is ultimately going to be the best filter for them.

How about you, Heather? Any final words or thoughts as we wrap up today?

I totally agree. I think that if you just could, out of everything that we talked about today that for parents, if you just choose one thing, just choose one thing that you think, okay, I think I could handle this. I think I could implement this. I think I could have this conversation with my child and just start somewhere. I think that that can be really even empowering for parents.

What I've been thinking about as we wrap up is the number of parents I think that are concerned about what if I share too much or too soon or my kids aren't ready. And I always look at the flip side to say the reality is your kids are going to hear something too soon somewhere on the playground, at a friend's house, in a movie, or they could hear it from you. And what would be the preferred place for your kid to hear something for the first time? I say, parents, it's you. And maybe if it really is too much too soon, I found that a lot of that for kids just kind of goes over their head or they're like, oh, they don't really think about it too much. But when it comes from you, a safe person who truly is there to help them and to encourage them, I don't think you can say too much too soon because you're looking to help them versus all those other environments where they might be exposed to words or content are not there to help them. So get over some of that fear of, well, what if I say too much? Because I think the far, far greater danger is what if I don't say enough? What if my kid doesn't have equipping from me? That's far more dangerous. So do your best. Do it with love. And I really believe the Holy Spirit will guide you into the right conversations and to helping your kids all throughout the ages and stages of their life. So Kristin, today's conversation has provided a wealth of of practical advice and wisdom on how to protect and guide our children in the digital age. Equipping our children on this topic and how to recognize and avoid harmful content is so important. And while it might feel overwhelming for some parents and feel challenging, as we've discussed so much today, the key is to be engaged, to have open, proactive communication with your kids and help set clear boundaries that align with our values and for the health and goodness we want to see in their lives. So thank you for joining us for being a part of the parent training course that people can find at Pure Desire. We hope parents feel empowered today to navigate these complexities in an online world. So before we let you go, Kristen, real quick, just tell listeners where can they keep up with you or get some of these tools that you've mentioned today.

Yes. So find us@DefendYoungMinds.com and also find us on social media, on Instagram, Defend Young Minds, Facebook. We put out a lot of content. And thank you so much. I just want to thank the parents that are listening to this. Thank you. Thank you for all you're doing to raise your children to help them. And we just want to be there to help you face some of the challenges that they will face. But they can face them better and stronger and with more resilience when they have you there with them.

So if you're not tracking with Defend Young Minds, you should be go and look them up, subscribe, follow all the good things. We'll have that in the show. Notes. Thank you, Kristen. It's a pleasure to have had you with us today.

Thank you, Nick. Thank you, Heather.

And if you're a fan of this content of today's conversation, we would love it if you would subscribe to the Pure Desire podcast, share it with somebody else, or write us a review. These are all ways that other people can hear about the show and about the conversations that we're having. If you want more information about Pure Desire, groups, resources or counseling, go to PureDesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.

Sam.