396 - Rupture & Repair: Strengthening the Parent-Child Bond w/ Dr. Jake Porter

Foreign hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 396, and here joining me today is my CO host is Mrs. Heather Kolb. Heather, welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Yeah. How's life for you guys?

Life is good. Getting a little bit busy with some new grandchildren coming.

But yeah, you've got one at least really close to coming, right?

Yes, one coming very, very soon. And just received news recently that we're going to have another one coming this summer.

So exciting. So let me ask you a question. As a grandma, do you spoil your grandkids? Are you going to be that kind of grandma?

Yes, of course. And I don't know if spoiling is necessarily the right word, even though my oldest grandson, who's about 15 months, he loves Reese's Pieces and I love being able to share that experience with him. So maybe spoiling is the right word.

We could bring your kids and ask what they think, does grandma spoil your kids? And I don't know. Seems like being a grandparent means you got to spoil your grandkids a little bit.

Yeah, it's really fun.

Well, that's exciting. And also exciting is today's show. I think we had a really powerful conversation and had the pleasure of interviewing again Dr. Jake Porter, who is the founder of Daring Ventures and had a conversation with him about something that really is, I think, a specialty of his and came up a lot on our new parent training course. And that is this idea of rupture and repair in relationships with our children. So, Heather, share a little bit about what you think listeners will get out of this conversation.

I think that this is one of the things that had I not understood this process of really recognizing when something I did or said as a parent has caused my child to feel distressed or unseen or unheard or caused any kind of reaction or response in them, then I wouldn't necessarily have known that part of that process is to restore the relationship or repair what possibly was damaged. And I think that there's really a lot that goes into that. Just when just as parents, we talk so much about the importance of us being healthy, us having emotional awareness, us being able to own our mistakes. And I think that all of this plays right into this process of rupture and repair, of just recognizing that I'm never going to be a perfect Parent, and I'm going to make mistakes and I'm going to hurt my kids, even though that's not my intent. And then really, what responsibility do I have as a parent to own that and apologize and make sure that I'm really constantly working to have a right relationship with my kids, whatever that looks like. And I think that that's part of what comes out of this conversation in a lot of different ways.

Yeah, it seems like a lot of parenting material out there and. And to a degree, appropriately so, is focused on the kind of discipline and discipleship process with our kids. Like, how do I raise good kids, godly kids, kids that make good decisions. And so much of that focus is kind of like on navigating their behavior and their responses and what do I do when they're out of line. And it's so much about kind of that direction of how am I, you know, even the word parenting, like, we think of, I'm teaching you, I'm parenting you to do the right thing versus this concept of how important it is that in the relationship there is a give and take in terms of making mistakes and needing to own things and seeking forgiveness. And I think if most of us looked at our own upbringing, we didn't get a lot of that. It wasn't brought up. It wasn't modeled well. But in recovery, we know how important that is to own our weaknesses and to create that emotional vulnerability to strengthen a relationship. And that's what I loved about today's conversation. I think for so many listeners, it's going to help them start to bridge the gap between what have I learned in my recovery journey and what can I now take into my parenting that mimics or is parallel with what I've learned in recovery.

Yeah. And it really does emphasize the importance of this being a process that starts when our children are young. Because whether we think of it or not, we're basically teaching our children how to behave in relationship, even, you know, for their lifespan. And so just having that level of awareness when our kids are young is important.

Yeah, yeah. We commented how we didn't intend it this way, but it's kind of neat that Dr. Jake has little kids. My kids are in their teen years in early adulthood, and your kids are now grown, now with grandkids. So we kind of shared out of our own perspective of what are we learning and where have. Where have we messed up and needed to put some of this into practice. So I think for all of our listeners, that's. You'll find a connection point and even if you're not a parent, I want to just underscore you've had parents and for many of you there's a likelihood you will be a parent. And the principles here are really helpful for all of us to understand maybe the ways that we were shaped and the ways we want to do it differently. And so it also boils down in many ways to healthy relationships. And even if you don't have kids, you have relationships. And I think you're going to hear so many principles that you can translate even just into the relationships you're having in day to day life. So I believe there's a lot for everyone to get out of it. If you haven't yet, please check out the new parent training course from Pure Desire and enjoy this conversation A little bit about Dr. Jake Porter. He is a licensed professional counselor and a professor with expertise in developmental neurobiology, attachment theory and relational dynamics. Which means he's just a really smart guy, but he makes it really practical. He is the creator of Coupled Centered Recovery and has developed an innovative approach for helping couples rebuild trust and heal after betrayal trauma. He is the CEO of Daring Ventures, a counseling and coaching organization that works with individuals and couples to foster emotional resilience, relational wholeness and personal growth. And you can hear more at the end of the episode how to connect with Dr. Jake Porter. He's a board member of the Appsats. We're big fans of the association of Partners of Sex Addict Trauma Specialists, and he is an accomplished speaker who regularly addresses academic, faith based and professional audiences. He lives in Houston with his wife Kristen and their two daughters that you'll get to hear about quite a bit on the episode Magnolia Jane and Lottie Jo. And so without further ado, here's our conversation with Dr. Jake Porter on rupture and repair. Dr. Jake Porter, welcome back to the podcast. So good to have you on again. We appreciate it.

Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm really happy to be here. Yeah.

Yeah. So, Jake, all this month we have been featuring some of our guest experts from the new parent training course that Pure Desire put out. Really trying to equip parents to have those challenging conversations about sex and sexuality in the home. And you were a part of participating on that course. And so we wanted to start there to just ask what made you decide to contribute to that? What interested you about speaking to parents on this topic?

Yeah, so several things that kind of come together for me on this one is that I spend most of my time professionally, the vast majority of It. Working with couples, and in my work with couples, trying to be the best couples therapist I can be. I've done a lot of learning around attachment theory and human development and how relationships affect us as people. And I. I can't help, especially now that I am a parent, but see the implications of these things, not just for the couples I'm working with, but between parents and children and. And often, you know, the. The people I'm working with, some of the consequences that I'm helping them to maybe deal with in their adult lives have roots that go back to. To childhood. And I thought, well, you know, it'd be really nice to. Instead of, you know, playing defense, kind of get to play offense. Yeah, a little bit. And be proactive and be a part of, you know, breaking these intergenerational cycles of dysfunction. And. Yeah, so that was really attractive to me.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's awesome. And I think it speaks to, really, one of the purposes of recovery, that if. If we recover only for ourselves, have we really recovered. But it's when our recovery now is impacting other people and in the way we parent and raise our kids, that then recovery is being, like, lived out. And so, like you said, taking those principles that we learn about our own story and our own trauma and our own history and say, well, wait a minute, how does that translate into the kind of parent I am and the kind of experience that I'm providing for my kids without the pressure of being perfect? No one's perfect. But how do I take what I'm learning and implement it, integrate it into our family? I think that's. Yeah, like I said, a big part of our recovery.

It's huge. Huge. Just yesterday, actually, I was doing a group coaching call with some couples that I work with, and we always start with, okay, who's got a win to share? And the way I usually phrase it is, does anyone have a win for the relationship to share? And this young woman raised her hand, and she was like, it is a win for the relationship, but it has to do with my kids. Can I share it? And I said, by all means, yes. And long story short, she overheard her older child issuing an apology, making a repair to her younger child after hurting his feelings. And it was so clear to her that the way he learned that was because it's being modeled for them now. It's stuff that they are learning in their own therapy and healing process. And now she's watching her kids do this, and, you know, my eyes started sweating. It was. It was just that's just so meaningful. But you're right, that's. That is what recovery. We hope where recovery gets is that it's not an end in itself. It's a means towards something so much greater.

Yeah, I love that. So in the parent training course, you talk about the process of rupture and repair. Can you first explain what that means in the context of parenting? And then also, why is it such an important concept for parents to understand?

Yeah. So rupture repair is basically the components necessary for the development of secure attachment, which at first can sound a little counterintuitive or maybe even confusing. Right. So the way I usually talk about this is it would be conceivable, but. So my wife and I have two. Two children, four and almost two at the time of us having this conversation right now. And it's conceivable that we could structure their lives in such a way that one of us is always with them. Sleep right outside the crib of the two year old. As she was learning to walk, we could have just always stayed right there. We could spoon feed her or make sure we're right there. She's learning the feeder. But that would not actually create a secure attachment, a secure relationship between us as caregivers and our child or children. What creates the security is that there are ruptures in the attachment. There are periods of disconnection. It could be as simple as sleeping, right? They go to sleep, they wake up, you're not there, they cry. Then what happens? You come, right? They're over there exploring in the yard. They misstep, they stumble, they fall, they cry. You come. They're exploring in the toy room. They point, they ooh, they ah. You join them in looking at that. What that does is it's teaching them not to fear these moments of disconnection or lack of proximity if we want to get a little wonkier with our language. Because the reconnection will come. If I can trust a repair, I don't have to fear a rupture. That's. That's what. What secure attachment comes from. And, and so, you know, that's one of the main tasks of, of a parent, I think, and it like it. I think of it as boiling it down to one of the most important things we can do because it says there's a middle path there. We don't want to become, to use the proverbial phrase of the helicopter parent, where there's never any opportunity for the development of that security through some distance. But we also want to ensure that we're always following up with consistent repair.

Mm.

Yeah, I love that. You know, I think that, like you said, it's almost counterintuitive a little bit. I was recently at a mom's group, moms with young kids, and we were talking through the different attachment styles and how that development develops and even the way that plays out in their adult relationships. And one of the moms said, well, after hearing all those attachment styles, I don't think that my kids have any attachment style. And then after talking with her more, it's like, well, my children are always with us. Nobody ever babysits them. Nobody ever. You know what I mean? So there really wasn't that opportunity for there to be that distance or that disconnect or even a rupture, so to speak, in order for there to be repair. And it's so important. But you wouldn't think of that as a parent? I don't think or think of it in that context.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we. If we want to get into, like, all the cultural forces and voices that are kind of bringing about some of this change in parental paradigm, we can. But. But one of the. One of the things that we see is parents having an orientation around protecting their children from everything, discomfort, everything. Thank you. You. Thank you for just saying it. Yeah, everything. Everything. And that's just really not helpful because it does not prepare them for a fallen, broken world. And my goal as a parent should not be that my children are always happy. That is not realistic. That my children are always perfectly safe. I mean, yeah, I'm responsible to keep them safe, but perfectly safe. My goal is that they grow up to be able to function in a fallen, broken, sensic world in a way that honors their creator, their redeemer. You know, that's my goal. That's my job.

What I like about what you're saying, Jake, is it removes, I think, for so many parents, that pressure of feeling like, well, I've got to be the perfect parent. Especially in recovery, as we learn about the ways that our own family of origin, our trauma stories, shaped us, typically in negative ways towards addiction or addictive behavior. Like, well, I don't want to do that to my kids. I've got to do everything right. And then we're like, oh, my goodness, I'm still a normal person and I lost my temper, or I wasn't there for them. Right. I didn't have the right response when they were in need, and we can beat ourselves up of, oh, no, now I've traumatized them, right like they're going to need therapy and all these things I've done to them. And yet that other side of seeing the more important aspect might be what do I do after that fact? What is Dr. Ted Roberts told me about it is called it the return. Like what is the return Catch the return of how do we re. Engage, reconnect, own what we need to own, offer forgiveness, ask for forgiveness. That, that is in many regards more important. And I'm not saying we should just casually try to inflict pain on our kids. I hope no listener hears that.

No.

But that we can get so wrapped up in am I perfectly parenting my kids that we do I think have a greater danger of over functioning and overly trying to do nothing wrong versus just saying, you know what? I can take a deep breath. I'm going to be a real person and when things go sideways, we're going to walk into it together. And I think that is helpful rather than having that pressure of doing everything right or doing everything the opposite of my parents did.

That that is so huge because it, that's important on two levels. One is like the immediate moment of hey, I, I did something wrong because I'm not perfect as a parent. Right. I am a fallen human being with a sin nature and I'm going to lose my temper and I'm going to run out of patience and I'm going to make, you know, poor choices and, and, and I'm going to, you know, explode or withdraw or whatever it is with my kid. And in the immediate moment there's going to be a need to repair, to return, which in the moment helps to facilitate that, that security. But beyond that, I am in. When I can own my humanity in this state, you know, of, of being imperfect, when I can own that I'm giving my children permission for that as well. I'm giving my children permission to be imperfect. That the reality is we're imperfect. That's different than giving them permission to be disobedient, permission to be disrespectful of other people or us as care. But to be imperfect and this just to tie it to addiction and recovery. Because I know that that's a, that's a big part of a lot of pure desire. Listeners is so many addicts got the message that it wasn't okay to be imperfect.

Yep.

But the reality is we are imperfect. So if the reality is I'm imperfect, but I believe I have to be perfect, do you know what I'm going to do? Lie. I'm going to be dishonest I'm going to hide parts of myself. And we know where that goes. We know that that is one of the most common ways people end up in addiction. So what a gift to give our children, to teach them both explicitly and implicitly with our own example that hey, we're imperfect and that's okay.

That is so good.

Yeah. So important. So in relationships, Jake, ruptures can happen a lot of ways. A misunderstanding, an emotional outburst, miscommunication. But what if someone grew up and maybe feels like they weren't really trained in this? Well, you know, they grew up in an environment that might be that, you know, life's tough, get over it and they are wondering how aware they are of maybe their children feeling a rupture. So what might be some common signs or things to look for as a parent that a rupture has occurred and when to recognize that my child is maybe feeling that disconnection.

Okay, great question. So it could look like a lot of different things depending on the kid, depending on the situation. And, and, and one kid, it could show up a lot of different ways in different moments with that kid. So I've, I've, I've got a bit of a list in my head here. So the most common in my house right now with a rupture is an explosion, like an emotional outburst. Yeah, you know, a tantrum on the floor, hollering, screaming. The four year old has learned to say things like I hate you and I'm never gonna love you ever, ever again for two weeks. You know, she's feeling a rupture in that moment. Right. And just to make the Note, and the 2 year old has been watching that and is getting pretty well practiced at it as well.

Wonderful. Isn't that wonderful?

Yes, yes. We can hear it in studio stereo. But it can also look like withdrawal avoidance. A child who is normally more snuggly, more cuddly, being less so, you know, not coming in for that, being resistant to it, stiffening up. When you go into show affection to them, they, they stiffen up. Regressive behaviors. So if they're old enough that they, that tantrums aren't like a thing, like a big thing anymore. And they go back to that. Even bedwetting. If they go back to that, that could be a sign that there's a feeling of rupture happening. And then, and then things like they're not making eye contact with you, they're reluctant to talk, they're reluctant to share something with you that, that sort of thing. And so any sort of shifts to their mood, their behaviors, any of those non verbal cues and, and this, you know, some people may think, yeah, I'm not trying to be like woo woo on this or whatever, but there's a such thing as parental instinct. And you may, you, you may not be able to name it, but your gut is just saying something's, something's off. Here, listen to that. Just be curious about it. For sure.

You know, my children are older. My youngest is now 13, my oldest 20. And I think there is a place to just ask. Sometimes we fear that as parents. But to go to a kid and just say, have I done something to hurt you today? Because if I did, I'd really like the chance to own it. It feels like something's off between us. And you know, as a teenager, often their response like, no, I'm fine. But I found that those moments of my, my request or initiation are what will open the door later for some, someone to come back and say, you know, actually, or another thing I would recommend to parents, it's okay to compassionately guess, you know, to go to your kid and say, hey, earlier today when I said this, did I hurt your feelings? Did that, did that bother you, frustrate you, anger you? Like, if you've seen something and you're wondering, like you said, Jake, that parent intuition of like, I got a sense that maybe that landed in a way that was hurtful. And I'm going to just ask them. And again, maybe as a teenager they'll go, no, I'm fine. But I think your attempts to own what you've done or to show like, hey, I'm going to make mistakes. And when I do, I'm going to ask if we can make it right. I think that speaks volumes. Even if in the moment, a teenager being a teenager, it feels like, well, that didn't go anywhere. Take some encouragement from that. They're paying attention more than you realize.

Well, absolutely.

Many of the things that you described are really not much different than the way adults behave when there's a rupture.

You know what I mean?

Right. And so just having that awareness that, you know, our children are people and so they're going to have human reactions the same way that a lot of times we have that human reaction as an adult too. We just sometimes maybe have more language to put to it than children do. But if you're just looking for those behaviors, it really does make a lot of sense.

A hundred percent. We as adults, we're just more sophisticated in how we dress it up. But it's going to be one of the same basic sort of threat responses. Fight, flight, flop, fawn or freeze. I mean it's going to be one of those which I, you know, now that I'm going through that list, I realize I didn't, I didn't name a fawn response, which is a people pleasing response. So if you notice your kid all of a sudden like doing things to try to gain favor, earn your approval or your acceptance again, that's another potential sign of, of rupture.

Yeah, that's really good. So what happens when ruptures go unaddressed in the parent child relationship? How can unresol tensions affect a child's emotional development and the long term bond that typically you see between a parent and child?

So several, several things to be said about that question. The there's, you know, most generally speaking there's, there's the development of insecurity or fear in relationships. Okay. So there's actually there are some studies, these are terrifying. Okay. To like talk about, but there are studies that show that the quality of a child's relationship with their primary caregiver at 18 months ends up predicting the quality of their relationship with a romantic partner at age 21.

Wow.

Okay. So this matters. You know, no pressure, but this matters. And so really and truly, when we are interacting with our kids in these early formative years, we are co creating within them a template through which they will interpret relationships moving forward. They will interpret what's happening in relationships through that template and then they will respond through that template as well. So if, if anger has no place, if anger means danger to the relationship, if anger means I'm put on the outside, then I am going, that's going to develop within me a very particular template to navigate relationships when anger shows up later. And what meaningful relationship isn't at some point going to have some anger thrown in the mix? Right. So, so just kind of very generally speaking long term fears of fears and insecurities in relationships, but that, that will then splinter off into a couple of things that, that are important. One is maladapting, maladaptive coping strategies because they're going to figure out, children, let me say it this way. Children intuitively know that they are dependent on their caregivers for their survival. So if mommy or daddy is mad at me and I think that means they could put me out, kids don't even have words for it, but they feel it.

Yeah, right.

If, if that's what I believe at some point early in my toddler early childhood years, I'm going to start developing coping mechanisms to protect myself from that avoidance, hyper vigilance, that fawn response, like, you know, disappearing, you know, whatever it is. And then the last thing that I would mention in terms of what happens is shame. And shame, chronic shame, is one of, I think, the most pervasive problems in our society today. Shame. And this is coming from like a developmental, neurobiological perspective. Shame is what a child feels at the moment of, of the rupture, when it becomes, when they connect it relationally in their mind. In other words, it's like first there's a spike of threat. Oh, what, you know, this is dangerous. But then when it becomes, when they look at it through that relational lens of, oh my gosh, mom is mad at me, mom doesn't like me, daddy, you know, is yelling at me, or whatever it is, then there's this collapse. And we see it in our kids, right? Shoulders fall, head falls, tears well up. My, my daughter the other night, and honestly, I don't even know what did because I wasn't mad at her. I didn't think I was disciplining her in any way, but I said something and she thought she was in trouble and, and she, she went into that. I saw the spike, the deer in the headlights, and then the collapse and then the tears and the shoulders down and her not looking up. It's not always quite that obvious. It can be very subtle. They could go take that to their rooms quietly. Here's the problem with that. They get stuck in that hypo aroused dissociative state, and they don't develop the capacity literally in their nervous system, the capacity to come up and out of that has to be scaffolded within them. I went to my daughter and I said, hey, look at me, look at me. Come here. Let me hold you close. You know, relax. Look at me. You're okay. Breathe with me. And, and every time that happens, we're building inside of them the, the litter, literally the capacity for their nervous system to come up out of that dissociative, collapsed state, which, which is what later becomes the affective background to chronic shame. That was a lot.

No, that was so great.

I think it's huge.

It is huge. Yeah. Especially when you can read research articles today that, that show that, that they can, they can witness a shame response in a child that's like 18 months old. And as a parent, I would have never thought that that shame was actually being kind of programmed into them a little bit, and especially As a parent, if you can't recognize that or don't recognize it and then also don't work to help them come out of that and build resilience for them, then it really does mess them up.

Well, if I may. Let me. If I'm. Can I step on some toes here? I know this is going to hit. Hit personal for some folks. It's going to. But it does for me, too. I need to be open to the possibility and the probability that the moments when I. Not every time, but the moments when I do something, when I interact with my child in such a way that that shame response comes up in them, I need to look inward and see if I was acting from a place of shame. Yeah, I'm being disrespected. That's not okay. What does it say about me if I have a kid who acts like that? You know, and if that's the case, then what we're doing, we're essentially. That's a form of scapegoating, you know, and passing on, you know, the traumas rather than the healing from one generation to another.

A couple of years ago, I got to have a really powerful conversation with my dad, and I think it's a story that shows the capacity we all have for growth at any age, because we were actually talking about forgiveness and him asking forgiveness of us as kids. And neither of us could remember a time as a kid where he had asked for my forgiveness. And he owned that in a really beautiful way. And my dad is a great man, but I think he would acknowledge that was just not the way they were taught to parent. You know, they're Midwesterners, Scandinavian. Like, it's kind of that stiff upper lip. And there is kind of a sense of like, mom and dad are the authority. You do what we say. You don't question it. And so repair in our home growing up, and I got into a lot of trouble as a kid. Repair was usually, you know, I would get in trouble, I would get spanked, I'd get sent to my room, and then repair was come out when you're ready to behave, and I would act better. And so what I internalized in that, where there was very little repair in an active way, was that it was my fault. I had done bad things, and when I behaved better, things got better. And so, you know, I look in my own performance streak. It's like, well, yeah, that's what I learned got me. Acceptance and love was to perform and be the good kid. And so I just see that impact in my life and wanted to share that in a way. Again, not to fault my parents, because they were parenting. I think they loved Jesus and were doing their best. But there wasn't some of that active rupture and repair happening that left a lot of that language for me of like, oh, this is what it means for me to get love and acceptance. So I think to underscore how at any age we can address that and how important it is that we are appropriately vulnerable with our kids and able to ask forgiveness, able to own our stuff because of what it will do in them to communicate. Oh, you're. You're not the problem. There are times I'm the problem. There are times that I've. I've reacted out of my. Like you were saying, Jake, out of my own shame. And so in that regard, when we are going about repair, it requires vulnerability and some emotional presence. So how can we approach repair if, as you were talking about, we're maybe feeling some of our own guilt or frustration with our own behavior during the rupture? How do we then approach our kid when we maybe have got our own stuff to deal with first?

Yeah, the first step is to be open to that reality that is happening, right? That there's not just. I mean, we can see. Often we can see and hear our children's emotions in that moment, right? Because they're in front of us. They're, you know, sprawled out on the grocery store floor, or they're hollering at the top of their lungs, or they're doing that thing where. And we're like, that's easy to see. Take a moment. And I mean, really a moment, three seconds, five seconds, just look inside, just pause and go, what am I feeling in this moment? What's happening inside of me right now? Just doing that. So self reflection is a frontal lobe capacity. The frontal lobe is where the functional adult lives, okay? That's the functional adult part of our brain. And we don't want our kids to pull us down into a child state where we're the big child trying to discipline the small child, okay? We want to be the functional adult dealing with the child. So that one simple step of taking a moment for self reflection can kind of manually help your frontal lobe stay online a bit, okay? So that's one thing. The other thing, and this is also connected to the frontal lobe, is, is see if you can be curious instead of reactive. And that's. So, you know, like, there are moments when, if someone told me that while my kids, you know, having a meltdown I'm going to want to punch them in the face.

I won't.

I won't. But I, you know, I will. I'll want to. I get it. Be curious instead of reactive. But the reality is your brain cannot be curious and reactive at the same time. If we can develop that, that moment of curiosity, we're going to come from a much better place. That doesn't mean we don't have boundaries. That doesn't mean we don't come from a place of strength. Right. Use of a strength. Right. Use of strength. Right. Not a authoritarian use, but a. A right use of strength. And, you know, if my kid is about to run out in the street, maybe my reaction is. Is right. But pause. You know, if it's not a safety thing, pause. Get curious. Ask what's going on in myself. And. And this one's, I think, important, but hard. I think it's okay to admit how you're feeling. Don't say to the kid, you're making me so mad. But you can say, hey, when I ask you to leave your little sister alone, because she doesn't want to play that right now. And you keep going over there and upsetting her. I'm asking you not to do that, and you're not listening. That's frustrating. You know what's happening in you? Are you disappointed she doesn't want to play with you? Are you frustrated that she doesn't want to play with you? Because we don't want to punish our children's emotions. See, what I just did there is. I said I get frustrated. Are you frustrated right now? I can be disappointed. Are you disappointed right now? So the feeling isn't the problem, it's what you do with it. So if. If I want to punish my daughter for, in a moment of frustration, having an outburst that. If I'm frustrated and I have an outburst at her to punish her, that's a little bit counter. Counterintuitive. What am I saying? I'm going against what I'm trying to do there. Instead, it's like, wait a minute, let me show you. There's a different way to handle anger, to handle frustration. It's okay to be angry. It's not okay to hit your sister. I get, you know, it makes me angry to see your little sister hurt. But here's how we're gonna. Here's how we're gonna fix this. You know, I'm gonna pick you up, and you're gonna go play over here right now, right?

Yeah.

So we're making space for emotions. To be okay, even the negative ones, and I hate the term negative emotion. They're uncomfortable. They're unpleasant. But every emotion was created by God with a purpose.

It occurs to me what you're talking about there, Jake, is there. There are situations, especially when our kids are younger, that require immediate intervention. You know, splitting the kids, figuring out how to handle the angry outburst. What do we need? And that is not necessarily the same thing as the repair. And sometimes we can put pressure on ourselves, like, we need to fix this right now. We need to get this moment resolved. And especially if we grew up in environments that kind of had the don't let the sun go down on your anger kind of motif. And I know in my life, some of my trauma makes me fear detachment. And so there's like, we got to fix this right now, because if we don't, bad, even worse things are going to happen. And there are times I have to, like you said, take that breath and be able to have enough space to figure out what am I feeling here. So I'm not going to be that effective in going to my kid to seek repair if I'm still in the middle of my own kind of limbic response of feeling angry and frustrated, and I might need space. And so, sure, there is some value in keeping short accounts and not just letting things drift on and on, but between those two extremes of, like, we must deal with this right now and never dealing with it, I think is some healthy space of it's okay for me to process. Maybe I call a group member or if my spouse is entering into this with me, like, help me figure out what's going on or help me. Let me. Could I share with you what just happened and maybe what's coming up in me? Because then when I look for the return for the repair, I'm doing it. And not necessarily out of a place of perfection or having it all figured out, but at least able to, like you said, get back into my prefrontal thinking cortex and say, hey, here's what was going on for me. And I'm realizing it was actually a lot about this other stuff. And I'm kind of sharing some of that process with my kids. I have found that's been a helpful part of our relationship because they get insights into what triggered me and that my anger wasn't just, you were being disrespectful. I'll even say to them, you know, your disrespect landed for me in a place where I feel like I'm not good enough. And I know even in my childhood there were a lot of experiences I had that I didn't feel good enough and it made me wonder if I had value. And I know when you said it that's not what you meant, but I reacted out of my own insecurities. And so I'm sorry that I overreact, you know, so the goal is still to say I'm sorry, but it's not just to say I'm sorry and leave it at that. It's, it's to share some of my own processing with my kids, especially now that they're, you know, teenagers and young adults. I hope it's training them to look into their responses too and go, oh, why did I get so sarcastic? Or why did I use that really mean tone with my parents that there was more than just they made me mad. It's like, okay, well let's go deeper. Why? What's going on with you? And I think those have been the moments that not every time, but sometimes become really beautiful of. Wow, I think we just learned something about each other that was a very good outcome of a very maybe bad situation.

Absolutely. Such a gift. I mean, what a gift to your kids to share yourself with them like that, you know, and, and also to model that for them. And, and I mean, I can't help but again, kind of connect this to the work that I do most days with couples where there's been betrayal and discovery of addiction and all this kind of stuff, where one of the, one of the things that we end up working on so often is to developing empathy. Well, it would be nice if, if most of us developed that in childhood. Well, guess how you develop empathy? By being shown empathy. Right. And so when I can start with, you know, self reflection so that I can be that, that, that adult I can model. Emotions are okay, so now it's okay for them. I'm giving them permission for them to be real with their emotions. And now actually when they share that inter genuinely into a place of empathy with them, that is, that is literally how they will develop this, the capacity to have empathy for others. Right? So I mean, we're playing the long game here, right? We've got to, we've got to be focused on the long game with our kids. It's like nipping it in the Buddha right there. Okay, yeah. If it's a physical safety issue or something like, yeah, 100%. But with these relational, emotional, you know, socio emotional interactions and capacities and skills, we're playing the long game. It's, it's part of teaching them that a conversation can go on for more than a minute. A conversation might take place over several days, you know, as a kid gets older. And that's okay. And to be able to say to a kid, I'm not. I love you and I'm not ready to talk about this yet. I will. We will. You matter so much to me. You're important to me and we are, you know, nothing is ever going to come between us and I can't talk about this yet. That's okay. But then come back. Yeah.

Yeah, that is good. It really is a nice segue into our next question, which we may have already answered a little bit, but it just was telling too that children learn so much from their parents when it comes to emotional regulation. And so how can parents model emotional regulation during moments of rupture to teach their children then healthy ways to maybe develop problem solving strategies or even coping mechanisms.

So this morning, literally this morning I was getting ready for work and both of my daughters were in our bedroom. And I hear the four year old correcting parenting, disciplining the two year old and I hear her tone of voice and what she's saying and I thought, oh my goodness, she's do. That's, that's what we sound like. That is what we sound like.

Mini me.

Yeah. And, and it's like, wow, in the moment it feels appropriate because I'm the parent and you're the child and you need to learn to respect. And, and that is true. That's not a baby we want to throw out with the bathwater there. It does need to be the learning of respect for authority and that kind of thing. 100%. But, but I did have this moment of like, wow, she is just really absorbing what we do.

Yeah.

It was so in my face and so I even, you know, had some thoughts about this this morning. This question, you know, I want to stay more calm. I. I want to stay more composed. Volume. God gave us the capacity to yell so that we can say, you know, holler, get out of the street, a car is coming. That's, that's why we have the capacity to yell. Not. You are driving me crazy. That's not, you know, like steward your yells. Well, I want to, I want to get better at this too. So, you know, volume is important. Naming and validating our own feelings in front of our children. I know we talked about that, but just to kind of go through a little list with you here direct to your question, but naming and validating your own feelings and your Child's feelings, right. Doing those, those self regulation strategies and telling your child that you're doing it, hey, I'm going to count to five because I want to calm down a little bit.

One.

Two. Right. And so I think, I think that's something we can do. And then another thing to do is, you know, some parents and I understand the thinking behind this, but it's like once that initial repair is made or hopefully it's a repair, not just a correction. Right. Because there is definitely a difference there. But once that correction slash repair is made, it's like done because they want to be like, like God and you know, he remembers our sins no more. I get it. But there's also a place to come back later and reflect on it and, and build on it and you know, maybe say, hey, remember earlier today when such and such happened and you know, I did this, I said this, then you did that, and we hugged. Can I tell you a little bit more about what was going on there? Or can you, you know, as you remember it right now, what were you thinking? What were you feeling? And in that time where the threat isn't as immediate and the whole brain is more online to do some of that reflective work with them, that's going to help them do what's called consolidation work in their mind so that this experiential learning gets better integrated into something a little more explicit for them to practice.

One of the major themes in the parent training course is to pursue personal health. And what you're saying, Dr. Jake, makes me think about why that's so important. Because so much of what we do as parents is in the little moments. It's the things that are caught, not taught. And yes, we should prepare for those big moments and rupture and how do we go back and repair well in the big moments. But so much of what we pass on to our kids is just the who we are kind of moments. And again, not to say that we have to be perfect or do everything perfectly, but there's not enough preparation you can do to parent well in rupture if you're not also attempting just to live in relational health in all your life. And so if in your marriage you are constantly putting your spouse down or you're always deflecting any kind of blame, not taking responsibility, whether you intend to or not, guess what, that's going to impact your kids and all those little moments. And so when we think about teaching our children healthy coping skills, as you asked about Heather, problem solving skills, the question I think Is, am I employing that in the rest of my life? Because if I'm only trying to do it to, to make my kids be better or be a better parent, it's likely not going to have the impact. Because I think our kids, as you were mentioning, Jake, they intuitively pick up on all the other things. And then what we're trying to do with them in the moment doesn't ring true because, like, well, that's not actually how you live. I mean, you're telling me that I should respond this way, but you don't do that with mom or you're not that way with dad or you're not that way with your, you know, when we're out driving in the car. And again, I'm not trying to say, well, so we better live perfectly. I'm trying to say that when we're authentically trying to be growing in our own relational capacity and how we respond to situations, I feel like that does maybe more in our parenting than those direct moments. Now, they definitely work together, but it's just to me, that encouragement of the work I do in my own life, it's going to translate into my parenting whether I'm trying to do that or not. And that actually gives me hope that, man, if I work on me, it's going to impact other people. And we've seen that in so many ways.

Yeah, for sure. I, I'll. I'm going to adjust some details to protect identities here, but so I know of a woman who came in and, and one of her issues was around anger and a real aversion to anger. So it's. Anytime there was anger, her own anger or someone else's anger, a threat response would happen inside of her. Okay. And just, it led to a huge sort of people pleasing coping mechanism to, to try to just not feel anger. And as we're digging into this, it comes up that, well, her mother was a rager. And I start asking, oh, well, tell me, you know, tell me about that. And as she, she gets this puzzled and confused look on her face and, and she says, you know, now that I think about it, I have not a single memory of my mother ever raging toward me, ever. But I saw her rage at others. I saw it happen with others, you know, and so, yeah, it's. It, you're right. It's not just us to our kids. Our health, our emotional health and spiritual health more generally is having an impact both by what's being modeled and cultivated within us.

So, Jake, we've talked about it a little bit the role of apologies. But let's go into that a bit more. How important is it for parents to apologize to their children? And what does a healthy age appropriate apology look like in those circumstances?

Yeah, it's. It's absolutely crucial. It models the acceptance of imperfection, which is different than accepting, like I said before, you know, purposeful disobedience or disrespect. It models humility, it models accountability. You know, it, it demonstrates respect for the child as a person with feelings that matter. Right. Like, if they're not worth our apology, what does that say about their worth? Period? Wow. That. That's really important. It reinforces for them that when we make a mistake, we can correct it. You know, that a mistake different than misbehavior, but misbehavior too, it can be, it can be corrected. And so as far as, like, what goes into an apology, I think we acknowledge what happened. Like, just state the data of what happened. I said this, I did this. And how, you know, this is going to shift as kids get a little bit older. When they're older, you might be able to ask them more about their experience. When they're younger, you may need to help them with words or, you know, use your attunement to help them process and frame their own experience around it. But you acknowledge what happened and then you acknowledge how that likely impacted them. You know, I imagine when I yelled like that, that was really scary for you. Was that scary for you? Yeah. And then I want to express that I genuinely regret what I did. I'm not, I'm not justifying it. I might. So, like, let's take that example because this is a real one with, with my girls, you know, she's about to do something. I think she's about to hurt herself. I yell, I react.

Ha.

You know, snatch her up or whatever. And, and, and I say, hey, that was really loud. I was really loud. I imagine that was really scary for you. I am so sorry that I scared you. It. I can say I was scared too. And I, and, and that's what I did was I yelled and I grabbed you really quick because I didn't want you to be hurt and I was scared. That's different than, well, you did this and you shouldn't have been. If you hadn't crawled up there, I wouldn't have had to, you see. So I'm not justifying my behavior. So acknowledge what happened. Acknowledge the impact. Express genuine regret without any justification. And then I want to, I want to reassure them that I want to do better in the future. And if I can be specific about that, I will be. Hey, I'm sorry I yelled at you earlier. That must have been scary for you. I was feeling frustrated, but I should not have raised my voice. And next time, I'm going to take a deep breath and count to five before I respond to you.

Yeah, that is so good. It's one of those things, too, that. And I know that a lot of times we have opportunity to do this with our children when they're young and we're doing life with them, you know, up close and personal. But I also know for parents who have older children, that there's always room for repair and apology. Always. And I know that it was last summer I was visiting my son. He's in the military, and he was sharing. And I didn't know that this had happened, but he was sharing how at one point he was deployed. So he's in some other country on the other side of the world. And his wife, who's from another country, but she's in the United States on base, her car breaks down, she can't get ahold of anybody. And he feels so helpless. But then at the same time, this feeling of helplessness that he also felt when his dad and I separated, that comes to the surface. And so now he's not only feeling like, I can't help my wife, I feel helpless. But now I have really, this trauma that I experienced that's coming out in this way, and how do I deal with this and not have it just feel flood me, you know, while I'm in this situation? And so anyway, he told me about all of this, how this had happened, and it really gave me an opportunity as a parent for me to say, you know what? I am so sorry. I am so sorry. And really even step through a couple things that I remember from that exact experience that he's talking about when he was a child and be able to say, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that I was not a healthy enough mom at the time that I could help you in that moment, that you've had to carry this now for this many years and have it surface in a way like it did, you know, and even just for us to then talk through it and for him to be able to say, this is how I handled it. This is what I did. This is where I sought help even when I was still deployed, just so I could really start to work on that, healing that situation in my own. In myself, so that then I don't have to feel it again, you know, or that I don't have to feel it to that same intensity because now I'm aware that it exists. And I think that regardless of how old your parents are or your children are, that as parents we have that opportunity to step back into that and to apologize and own our peace in it and help our adult children, you know, repair that and bring healing to that.

Yeah, that's awesome. And I'd say with teenage kids in that age group, it's important to leave room for them to share their own perspective. Because I've gone in with like, hey, here's where I think I messed up. I'm sorry, would you forgive me? And then to say, is there anything else that we need to talk about or was there anything else that happened that you'd like me to see or hear from your perspective? And they've sometimes surprised me, like, well, actually that, you know, it's like, well, thanks for that. But that didn't really hurt me. But this did, like, oh, oh, yeah, I forgot about that part. Or, you know, for whatever reasons, in our own lens, we have things as parents, we're like, ah, I shouldn't have said that. But we might miss some pieces that to us seem normal or like, well, that's what parents do and not realize. No, that really the way that came across hurt them. And so to leave space to invite their feedback that it's not just, I did this, I'm sorry, will you forgive me? But like, I'm trying to have a conversation about how did that impact, you know, and would you help me see anything here that I need to see so that, like you said, Jake, so that I can do better next time?

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And with, with those older kids also allowing the conversation to be ongoing, meaning, hey, you may go and make the repair. And it feel very one sided for a while. Give it, give him space. Give them time for things to sink in and be willing to circle back and follow through on those offers. To circle back.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. So what if we see that a rupture has occurred between our child and our spouse? And then I guess, and we don't see them, like, we don't see our spouse moving toward repair with the child. How can we handle that? Is it, is it okay for us to approach our spouse and say, you know what, I noticed this happened, what are you going to do about it? We wouldn't say it that way, but.

Sure, we might.

We might. I think so. I mean, that's okay. Ideally, in a marriage, there is a trust that we're, we're partners in this and we know. I know I'm not going to do it perfect and you know, you're not going to be doing it perfectly. And I desire your input. I desire for you to tell me if I've got a blind spot to something. I desire for you to tell me if it feels like something was, something else was coming out sideways on our kids. And, and that it's done in a way that I'm not, I'm not calling you out, I'm calling you up. And, and you're going to do the same thing with me, right? You're not calling me out, you're calling me up. Because we want, right. We want to do the best we can for our kids and each other. Now that, that requires a lot of trust and a lot of the couples I work with that, that trust isn't necessarily there at first, which, which can be tough, but that's what we want to do. Aim for. Just practically speaking, though, don't do it in front of the kids. You know, it's. I remember my pastor from back in college who may listen to this episode. Hey, Pastor Kerry, I'm going to quote you here. He used to say, it's not enough to just say the right thing. You want to say the right thing the right way, the right time, in the right place. So, like, just be mindful, consider it when you go to your spouse to talk about these things. But I think. So what we don't want to do is throw a partner under the bus to the kid. We don't want to do that. Which if my partner has had a rupture and they seem unwilling to repair, what do I do? I want to double down on my connection with the child. Right. Not in a way that throws my partner under the bus, but in a way that seeks to reinforce and sure up that the child is okay.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I think it's important too, to check your motive as you're going to your spouse. Because sometimes I've realized my motive is I'm uncomfortable. And so I want them to fix it so I'm not uncomfortable anymore. Or I don't like silence, or I don't like unresolved things. Even if the desire to see them reconnect is good, if it's for my own purposes, it's probably not going to come across right to my spouse. And if I can get to a place like, no, my desire truly is to help, to just see how can I serve in this situation? How can I be a part of moving towards a solution, whatever that looks like, and coming to our spouse more out of that spirit of generosity. And hey, it seems like there was kind of a blow up between you guys. Is there anything I could do to help? What could I do that would maybe reinforce something you're trying to work on with our daughter? And then within that conversation, there may come an open door to say, I think when you said this, did you notice how they responded? I think that really hurt them. That may be within the context then of a greater conversation more received. And you've just come, you know, what you said really hurt our daughter. You need to fix, like, you know, we're all going to be defensive to that kind of what feels like an attack. So I so agree with what your pastor said, that the right thing needs to be said in the right way, the right tone, the right motive, even so that it can be received and not continually put our spouse in that defensive mode. So, Jake, this has been such a great conversation about rupture and repair. And for parents, whether they're young or old, if this is some new language, some new routines they're trying to get into, where would you suggest? Where could they start? What would you give us? Kind of a few final pointers today of learning to be more in this pattern of rupture and repair. What could they do to start doing this better?

Okay, at the risk of sounding like I'm overly spiritual and just given the good Sunday school answer, I really mean this sincerely. Go back, just go back to the gospel, because the gospel is the message of rupture and repair. That, that. That is what our salvation is. And, and really and truly, God has set up the world in such a way that somehow by his mercy, by his grace, what we will have in the end is so much greater than what we would have had, had there never been the initial rupture of the fall. So looking at it with all of humanity and all of creation, but also me, you know, there's a. There's an Andrew Peterson song. If there are any fellow Andrew Peterson fans out there, a Christian singer, songwriter, one of his songs is don't you want to thank someone, thank someone for this? And there's a line in there in the lyrics where he says, maybe it's a better thing, a better thing to be more than merely innocent, but to be lost and redeemed by love. And I believe that the reason why God designed human beings to need a process of rupture and repair to develop warm, intimate, secure, loving relationships is because it is a shadow of and a echo of the gospel. And it points to what he has done for us in Christ, the rupture we have with him through sin and the repair he has made with us through Christ. So first and foremost, I would say, you know, reflect on. On how God has sought to make repair with you. And then after that. Yeah, get pure desires parenting course. In between those two things, you should be set and good to go.

That's it. Yeah, I love it. How about for you, Heather? Any thoughts as we wrap up with today's show?

So I think that the thing that keeps spinning in my mind is how you were talking about the things that we're doing with our kids. The way we are really creating relationship when our children are 18 months old, that that's what their relationship template is going to be when they're 21 years old. And just recognizing that we start this process really young, when they're young. And a lot of times, I know that I didn't think of it that way when I had little people in my house, but just recognizing that, that it is really the long journey of this constant again and again and again, this rupture and repair and the way that we respond to our kids and the way that we help them, that that really is so, so important. Not just for their survival as children, but really for their survival in adult relationships. I think it's huge. Yeah.

I feel like so much of life comes down to a choice between pride and humility. Am I going to power up and try to win by being performer Perfect? Right. Better than or will I see. And thank you for bringing that in, Jake. Will I see the beauty of the gospel that Christ chose Power under to serve, to give his life away, to die on our behalf. And the model of love and the power that was in that, I think does speak to us as parents. That how through humility, by owning my weaknesses, owning my mistakes, owning my shortcomings in a way that will actually empower my children to do the same and create growth and just to communicate with our kids over and over. I'm not perfect, and that's okay. And you're not perfect, and that's okay. But let's work together on how we can grow and be there for one another. So, Jake, thanks so much for your insights on this, for your message of rupture and repair. And I know you've got a ton more places that people might be able to continue to explore this content. So if someone wanted to know more about what you do, hear more about talks you've given or things you've said about rupture and repair, where could someone catch up with Dr. Jake Porter?

Yeah, so I'm pretty active on Instagram and Facebook. Dr. Jake Porter. I've got a YouTube channel with, I don't know, hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of free content. That's YouTube.com Dr. Jakeporter and then my website, drjakeporter.com so lots of free resources there. I do have a they can go to my website and get a free copy of my book. I have a book that came out recently that I'm giving away for free there on couple centered recovery. So those who are healing from any sort of betrayal in their relationships want to get that resource out to people.

Awesome. Awesome. So listeners, we are big fans and if you can remember his name, you can find him, Dr. Jake Porter. We'd recommend you check out his material. And thanks again for joining us today. Jake, so great to have you on.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

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