398 - Rebuilding Marital Trust w/ Matthew & Joanna Raabsmith

Foreign listener and welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and this is your place for a biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is episode 398, and here joining me as my co host in this series is Mr. Rodney Wright. Rodney, welcome back to the program.

Thank you, Nick. It's always good to be with our PD listeners and be on the podcast. Enjoy it.

Yeah. Good to see you, my friend. You're looking bright and sunny. I know you're down in Mexico, correct?

We are. We're on the Sea of Cortez and just trying to do some good work down here in the winter.

All of us living in the rainy Northwest or, you know, throughout the frigid Midwest are envious and hope we get to come visit you someday.

Well, I'm not the booking agent, I'm the inviting agent. But you have to work through Traci on that because I got vetoed on that. I got too many friends. She said.

Great. Well, today is part two of a three part series we're doing on healthy relationships, healthy marriages, and we had the privilege of having on with us the co authors of the book Building True Intimacy, Creating a Connection that Stands the Test of time, Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith. And for those who don't know the Rab Smiths, I think they're in for a real treat. We had a great conversation today with them, Rodney.

Yeah, they're really gifted and articulate well. And what they've built in this intimacy pyramid you're going to learn about and how they're helping couples take steps forward, not just getting back what they had, but getting something they've never had is really a gift. And I couldn't recommend this podcast anymore. And they're from Memphis, Tennessee, so what else can we say that's so wonderful about them? You know, good people. Yeah.

A great couple. And I think this, the model they have on building intimacy is really going to create a framework for couples of understanding. Where are we at and what things do we need to focus on to get from where we are to where we want to be? And I think it's practical, it's doable, and it just makes a lot of sense. And they're great communicators. So I think listeners, you're going to really, really enjoy this. A little bit about Matthew and Joanna. Matthew works with clients from a variety of backgrounds and needs in the Memphis area and across the country via telehealth. He has over 15 years of experience as a pastoral leader and counselor. He holds a Master's of Divinity from Fuller Theological Seminary and is a professional certified coach through ICF. He's also a certified partner coach candidate through AppSats, another organization that we are big fans of. And Joanna, she appears to be the real smarty pants in the family. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist and a professional coach serving the greater Memphis area and clients across the country. She earned two graduate degrees from Fuller Theological Seminary, a Master's of Marriage and Family Therapy, and a Master's of Divinity. She's trained in Restoration Therapy and emotionally focused therapy, and utilizes system theories and client centered approach in therapy. She's also trained in EMDR and specializes in treating trauma and is a certified Clinical partner specialist through AppSats as well as a certified partner trauma therapist through ITAP. So we loved having them on. There's a lot of credentials behind their names. But I think what's important in today's conversation is that they are a couple who has lived it and is now helping many, many other couples find true intimacy. And so here is our conversation with Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith on rebuilding tr. Matthew and Joanna, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. So good to have you on today.

Wonderful to be here.

Thank you.

Yeah, as first time podcast guests, we'd love to have you just introduce yourselves to our audience, tell everybody a little bit about who is Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith.

Yeah, we are a couple who've been in kind of work helping other couples through the realities of addiction, betrayal, and restoration, ultimately. And we've been doing that for a number of years. We're really blessed to do the work that we do because we get to see a lot of couples find just incredible restoration and reconciliation in their marriages.

Yeah. And we do that kind of professionally, but also because it's a part of our own personal story, our own personal journey that we really love to share with people. The kind of the hope and the healing that we have found along the way, as well as the tools and the roadmap for healing. When we went through, through recovery as a couple, there was a lot of resources for Matthew and kind of his side of the healing journey. There's very few resources for me and there is absolutely zero resources for us as a couple. And so we, we knew that if we were going to dive in and really do this work that it was going to take a lot of effort, it was going to be hard, it was going to be at times painful. And if we were going to put all of that into this relationship. We wanted something pretty amazing and worthwhile on the other side. And so we, we did, we put in a lot effort, we worked really hard. And there were some roadblocks along the way that made it harder. And so as we worked through those, we knew we wanted to kind of figure out that roadmap, that journey, so we could then share it with other couples. Kind of what the hope is, what the power of Christ can do in healing that relationship, but also just practically the steps along the way. And so we developed a framework, the intimacy Pyramid, that we use with the couples we work with. And then we wrote a book with Dan Drake, building true Intimacy that kind of walks through that framework as well.

Well, thank you both for owning your story and then just offering something better for people coming behind you. And I think that's, to me, that's so beautiful. I'm going to ask a question here about your intimacy pyramid, how it was created that came about in the book. My wife loves it, by the way. She's one of our peer desire clinicians. And she said, rodney, you're fortunate to get to be with Matthew and Joanna. So Tracy gives you guys big thumbs up. But tell us how you created that pyramid. Tell us how that came about.

Yeah, it was really interesting. Joanna was working with Dan in his private practice when she was getting her licensure as a therapist. And Dan was trying to conceptualize kind of what happens after full disclosure. Right. He was working from this framework of if we're going to establish honesty back into the relationship, where do we ultimately want to go? What are couples actually after? Because we recognized couples weren't coming looking for honesty. They were really looking for, for intimacy. They were looking for a life giving relationship. We just recognized that because of the betrayal, because of the things that had happened in the relationship, they, they were kind of out of, out of luck. They couldn't get to what they wanted. And so it was kind of in those conversations with Dan about what does the journey look like? What are the kind of parts of the puzzle? And we were thinking kind of along the lines of Maslov's hierarchy of needs, recognizing that intimacy is this, is this very top level relational experience. But to get there, we need the base levels to really be filled out well, because if they're not there, the relationship's going to kind of constantly crash in on itself.

Yeah.

And so we kind of, with that in mind, we just ask ourselves really generally, what does this look like? And we knew that honesty was the foundation because the lack of honesty had eroded all of the trust and the connection. Right. That was there. And so we. We knew honesty was the foundation, but on that foundation we were trying to think through what do we build. And so we recognize if there's going to be honesty, there also needs to be safety. The relationship needs to be something where both people are putting something in.

Yeah.

And safety is what, with honesty allows for trust to be re established.

And after trust, right. When we're. That's really when a couple starts leaning in more towards each other and towards the relationship. And that trust level, the way we kind of describe it, is honesty and safety. There's a lot of individual work going on as well as couple work in those levels. Right. Trust is when we really start leaning back into the relationship to create an usness. And as that gets stronger and stronger, it kind of reinforces that experience of safety and allows us to start to be vulnerable with one another. And so that vulnerability. Vulnerability is the next layer of that pyramid. And as we lean into vulnerability more and more, that's when we start to experience that intimacy.

Yeah.

What I really want to know is how did you fit the word vulnerability in the top of the triangle? Because there's just not much space for that.

Fonts are really tricky. As we were getting there, we were like, oh, we need shorter words. Yeah. Intimacy actually was the hardest because it's a tiny little triangle. We have some really good graphic designers that were very creative.

Yes. Very creative. Thank God for people using their gifts and skills in the right ways. I love what you guys are talking about because I think it does recognize that getting to that place of intimacy, and I think included in intimacy is the kind of physical intimacy and sexual connection we want. And that seeing that as an outcome and not a starting place is so important, which I think, frankly, we've often gotten wrong in traditional Christianity or how we thought of marriages, that once there's been that honesty or confession, it's like, okay, well, he's been honest or she's been honest. Now you need to forgive them and, you know, go have more sex, because that'll. That'll make you better. And it's like we're jumping over these layers that are being missed. And so the intimacy isn't true intimacy. It's kind of a forced intimacy. And I think when it's forced, when it's not, based on what you guys said, things like trust and safety and vulnerability, it's not actually intimacy. And I think that's what we encounter a lot as couples have maybe sought out help somewhere else or in circles that maybe have that traditional view is maybe they've reconnected sexually in the bedroom, but they feel like they're as far apart as they've ever been and it's not actually quote unquote working. We feel disconnected and nothing is happening. And so, yeah, I love the. The idea of these layers that you can actually look at. Where are we at? What are the things we need to focus on to regrow this relationship so that we can get to that very good outcome?

Yeah, absolutely. And know that that outcome is secure. And I think, you know, not having that side of the betrayal, but experience, you know, kind of learning about it through our work, that that instability is what's so difficult for someone who's been betrayed. How. How is our relationship going to become stable again after it's proven to be unstable? And so that' why we felt like this process needed to really have a slower foundation, kind of a bigger foundation. Because we're getting. We get risky, right? We talk about when we're talking about vulnerability. Vulnerability is risky, right. I'm putting a lot on the table, and that riskiness is something I'm going to have to decide. How do I do that again when I risk once and I got burned, right. How do I risk again? And what we have found was the couples wanted to, like you said, they were kind of diving into some of these, trying to be intimate, maybe even trying to be vulnerable. That was what we found, was there was all this vulnerability but no safety. And so. And so this vulnerability was kind of actually creating chaos for the couple. Once we established safety and trust, then the vulnerability was much more restorative. It was actually healing for couples. It was bringing them together kind of across those pains.

And there's such a danger in jumping into that vulnerability and intimacy before those other levels are there. And because you're going to break down, right, you're putting too much pressure on the structure before it's strong enough to hold it. And so you can actually break down the safety in a relationship when you push into vulnerability and intimacy too quickly. And we see that, we see that a lot. And ultimately that's usually what happened before in the relationship. Right. And so we don't want to recreate that again. And then it can be even harder than when you do it in a healthy way. You get to that vulnerability, intimacy. It can be really, really hard and scary to step into that. Even there is that safety in place. If you've had so many experiences of doing it and creating pain and disconnection. And so we really, we really work with couples, kind of understand it is very important that you go in order. And it's not obviously a perfect linear journey. Right. Like, we get that reality. It's messy. But we do our best to really help couples learn to in some ways, self assess their own relationship. Right. And go, okay, if we're getting stuck, why are we getting stuck? Where and what are the healthy next steps for us?

Yeah, well, you guys already answered my next question about the layers of the pyramid, which is great because you described it for us. So let me ask a different one that I know comes up a lot for us. And probably you get. It's couples that want to know how long is this going to take? And we know there's not a clear timeline that's the same for everybody. But in general, how long do you walk with people through this? What do you see as you've worked with couples that they might expect? Here's kind of the range we need to be looking at as we, we hope to get back to that place of true intimacy.

Yeah, yeah, that's a great. It is all across the board, the industry standard. Right. What you always heard from people was three to five years, that that could be daunting for couples. We also think that sometimes doesn't actually capture the experience. What, what we will typically talk about is those, those kind of foundational levels. We call those like kind of the recovery levels of honesty and safety that typically, if both partners are working and they're doing the kind of things that they need to do to move forward, you can see a couple work through that process anywhere from six to nine months. And this depends, of course, on the type of either struggles that there are on the kind of the spouse who's betrayed. Right. There may be kind of history and complexity of trauma that exists in the relationship, but couples who are motivated and willing to do the work, you can move through that honesty and safety in that kind of six to nine month period before you hit this, what we call the kind of restoration phase. And that's really where that's about that re establishing of trust. And once you have that stability of the foundation, that puts you into this place of saying, how are we going to reestablish trust and kind of reconnect that partnership? That process typically takes about six months as well, maybe three months. On the short side, the whole thing.

Probably about two to three years. But we are talking a couple that is diving into their own work, taking this work really seriously. Right. Like really Motivated. I mean, the couples that we see transform, it kind of becomes a second job, recovery. Right. Like, they really take it on as in some ways, a new identity of, like, this is who we are now. We are a couple in recovery. I am a person, a partner. Healing from trauma, that's not a small task, right? Like that. That when my. My body, physical body is traumatized, right? If I break a leg, I go to the doctor, I go to appointments, I go to physical therapy. I change my life around to accommodate the healing that I need. That also needs to happen for a traumatized partner. Some partners maybe don't love that or in denial or it feels unfair. And so they might be a little bit resistant to the healing. Right. Or on either side. Right. That could happen. And so the more open you come in, the more ready you are to do your own work as well as that relational work. We see a very big difference in terms of that timeline with couples.

Yeah, that's great. I love that you have a competent pathway that helps people see the steps along the way. And I think that recovery is something we do for a lifetime. It's not. Well, I got my three years in. I'm 28 years on my recovery. And I just tell people, I keep working my recovery, I keep working with my wife, I keep rebuilding trust, rebuilding safety, building vulnerability, intimacy.

So, Rodney, your answer is, well, it might take 28 years. I don't know. I'm not there yet.

I had a guy in my group say that the other day, Rod, you're going to a counselor. I thought you'd be fixed after 28 years. I said, hey, I'm smart enough to go. It took me 28 years to know that if I have a problem, it's okay to go to a counselor, you know?

So, yeah, I think sometimes, sometimes when couples ask that question of how long will this take? What they're also saying is, how long will we be in pain? How long will this be? Like, in my constant awareness of what are we doing? And in that regard, it can be, I think, as you guys have seen, in a six to nine month period, you can make tremendous progress and feel like, wow, we're kind of arrived at a new, better, healthier rhythm. But it's a little bit, you know, I love using the illustration of the physical body and physical therapy. If you've had a major break of a bone, how long will you be in pain? How long for the bone to set? That's one answer. But how long for me to be able to go back to pickleball or running or whatever activities I'm into. Well, that may be a process of learning new rhythms and rebuilding muscle, regrowing all the ligaments that have been in a cast for maybe months. There's some of that recovery too. That, that. How long does it take to get to a place where we feel like we're in a good rhythm? That can happen in a. I think, like you guys said, that 6 to 12 month range is really not uncommon. But if we assume like, oh, we're feeling good and things are healthy and we're just done now, there's maybe a lot of restoration work that goes undone and I think increases the likelihood that you circle back to the same place again.

Absolutely.

And perhaps again.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And we talk about that living amends, you know, from the kind of 12 step perspective of amends, isn't this kind of punishment that I'm doing. It's what I get. It's the life I get to live. I kind of like Rodney was like, I get to live a better life. I'm 12 years into recovery. I like the life I live. And it does look different than the life before. It includes therapy, it includes accountability groups and talking with people. But I wouldn't trade that life. And I think that's what we tell couples. Like you said, there's going to be a period of a lot of digging into the pain, but the majority of your journey really should be enjoying the fruit of the labor and then being excited about more work. Right. That's what we started to find when we started graduating couples. They were like, what's next?

What do we do?

And so many of the couples who have graduated in our programs are asking, can we lead groups? Can we lead couples? How can we help? That's when you really know that God has worked in the process. That when someone is ready to turn their kind of story and their journey into work, right into ministry, into giving back, they have a purpose to who they are. That's one of the things we see in intimacy.

Yeah. Matthew and Joanna talk a little bit about the different work that the betrayed spouse and the addict spouse in that scenario has to do. The different work. Shed some light on that. Yeah.

You know, and it's. It's early on, it's very different because we really are working from this kind of fractured relationship. And so. And as we get further up the pyramid, it becomes more joint. So. But early on, it really is about thinking, what did my actions take from the relationship? And how do I live in such a way that Puts them back. Right. And so this is about saying, okay, if I took this kind of transparency from the relationship by living this double life, which many people do, they kind of live this double life. Or if I lived in a way that I was always kind of choosing another path, right. This kind of selfish or this kind of, this acting out path. How do I demonstrate that I'm choosing the relationship, I'm choosing what's good. That's really going to be my goal. And we will often, I'll often talk to people who are in that kind of restoration work. They're restoring the betrayal that they committed. Will talk about, your job is to be trustworthy. It's not to be trusted. Right. A lot of people think my job is to be trusted. And I'll say, no, it's to be trustworthy. Right? That's really because that's what was happening before. You were showing up in a way that wasn't trustworthy in the relationship. And your partner was impacted by that. So the thing that you can do now is live a life that's trustworthy and let everything else kind of happen for itself. Right. Because that allows then your partner not.

To feel the pressure and that builds so much more safety so much quickly. Right. If you've ever seen someone who's diving into recovery thinking it's the responsibility to be trusted, they usually are trying to control their spouse, manipulate how their spouse is feeling, put pressure on them. Do you trust them? Maybe kind of putting on a performance or only showing the good things that are happening in the recovery and that is going to feel really unsafe for their partner. They're going to be able to see right through that and they won't trust any of the recovery that's happening, even if there's some really good recovery happening. And so that switch to wait, it's not my job to control how this other person feels about me. It's to live a life of integrity and kind of trust that that is my only responsibility. And as I do that, the likelihood that that person starts to trust me is pretty high. We have yet to see someone living now in kind of like they put on that new self and they're living in integrity. And that that spouse hasn't just loved that transformation.

And I think what's really amazing is it's never been perfection. We've never seen. We've never seen perfection. Gather trust. We've seen integrity. And so that means people who are making mistakes, they are, they're like, they're still in counseling, they're still Figuring themselves out, but they're invested in that. That usually is the key.

Yeah. Then, oh, go ahead.

You're maybe about to say the same thing. Because I was wondering about on the betrayed spouse side, as I think about my wife's journey, I think sometimes she felt pressure and I'll acknowledge sometimes for me to feel like I need to get over this, it's my job to get over this. When that's maybe just like you were saying, Matthew, the wrong focus for her. It's her job to ask the question, what do I need to do to feel safe and to be in a place where I'm healthy and able to process what's happening? And at some point I may arrive at a place of feeling like, oh, I've gotten over a lot of the pain and the hurt and whatever happened, but if the focus is how long is it going to take me? Or how long is it going to take you to get over it? That puts the same pressure on the betrayed spouse. Like, well, there's something I need to do to make you feel better. And that's really never what recovery is about. It's not what I do to make you feel better. It's what am I doing to be the kind of person God designed me to be and that I want to be? And that lives in a way, whether it's with my spouse or my children or friends or coworkers that I'm learning to be the kind of person that I feel proud of. And when that's our focus versus, it's so easy to start pointing the finger at the other spouse, like, well, what work are you doing? And I just see as soon as that happens, it doesn't lead to anything good. But when we're focused on, well, what am I doing to move towards greater health, then typically that impacts the relationship far more than worrying about what our spouse is or isn't doing.

Absolutely. And that is kind of right. That's the role of both people. What do I need to do to move towards your health? It just looks really different. And so for that betrayed spouse, honesty isn't about bringing things into the relationship that I was keeping. Right. But it is about learning to grow my self awareness. For so many partners I work with, they have shoved down their gut and not trusted themselves throughout the relationship. Right. Because they didn't know what was going on, they were confused and so they started pushing down their needs. And so they're not very self aware oftentimes of their own needs. They don't, they don't trust Themselves, they're not able to be assertive in the relationship about boundaries. And so their work in kind of honesty is. And safety is really work within themselves to go, okay, am I aware of what I'm feeling emotionally? Am I aware of what I'm feeling even just physically in my body? Can I connect those things to my story and what I've experienced? Can I share those impacts openly and honestly in my relationship? And can I ask for what I need? Can I start to take responsibility for my own healing and my own safety in this relationship? And so that's a lot of the work that we're doing that I'm doing with partners early on in those kind of honesty, safety levels, before we're ready to kind of push in more as a couple and start working together collaboratively to do those types of things.

And kind of, as you said, it's amazing when you have a couple who's focused on each other, it pushes them away. When you have a couple who's focused on themselves, it drives them together. And I get it. Like, it's so counterintuitive, right? Couples think, hey, if I'm worrying and caring for and kind of managing my partner, we'll be better, we'll be closer. But they experience the exact opposite, right? They experience this really distancing in the relationship. And so being able to say, hey, if you can focus on yourself early, that's gonna give you that foundation, that strength to then be a partnership. But not kind of co parents. What we find is a lot of couples imagine intimacy to be co parenting each other. I'm gonna take care of her and she's gonna take care of me, you know, and Jerry Maguire, and we'll complete each other. And we kind of tell them, that's actually parenting your spouse. That's not intimacy, that's parenting. You don't want intimacy in a parent child relationship. You want intimacy in a partnered relationship. Yes. And so when they've done their own work, they realize, oh, because I'm in, like you said, I'm living my best self. I'm being who God has created me to be. I'm just going to naturally be kind of drawn to other people who are also doing that, including my spouse. And I'm going to want to work with them more. I'm going to want to take on more things together. And so it's just amazing to see when they do that, how much they draw together and how quickly they draw together, how much they're ready to take on more as a couple.

Matthew, I Just loved your line. I'm going to reiterate it again. But it's about being trustworthy, not trusted. And I think that's so great. Whether you're the female that's betrayed your partner or the male. Just that self focus of how do I become a trustworthy person? And leaning into that, to me, that's a great sound bite that we can. And just that mantra in our head, sometimes those mantras help us. It's like, how come she doesn't trust me? Or he doesn't trust me? That shouldn't be your focus. But how do I become trustworthy? And that's so good.

Yeah, I love this next question and I think you guys sent it to us, so kudos to you guys. But where in this process do couples tend to get stuck in what you've seen in your experience? Where are the sticking points that you've just recognized? Boy, this is a common occurrence where couples have a hard time progressing forward if they don't face this. Deal with this. What have you guys seen in that area?

Yeah, one of the things I think about early on is around triggers. Folks in recovery and who've dealt with trauma understand that when something gets activated, we call it a trigger. It triggers that kind of limbic system and that response. And often when someone who's been betrayed, they have some type of memory or experience that reminds them of that betrayal, they can get flooded really easily. And that can be really difficult for the couple to know how to handle. And I see a lot of spouses who've betrayed who want to be present, they want to be helpful and supportive, but they really struggle to know how. And so we often will work with couples on how to handle those triggers because we actually see triggers as that journey to trustworthiness, that journey to trust. Because what a trigger presents is it presents an opportunity for that spouse who stepped out of the relationship to demonstrate, I can actually hang in when it's really hard. I can hang in when things are difficult. They're challenging, they're one of my natural or my kind of previous inclination may have been to run away, but I can actually show up. And to be able to do that, though, that betraying spouse has to be able to regulate their own emotions. We talk about that idea of if I can regulate my own emotions, that's what gives me the ability to sit with other people who are in their pain, even if that pain is directed towards me. And that is such a key journey for couples because that really sets that sense of safety up for the Partner, it lets that partner know, okay, we're not going to be good. If things are good, we're going to be good no matter what. Right? It's going to. We're going to have that stability no matter what.

Another way, that inability to self regulate, that's in that safety level. We kind of talk about self regulation there. I've had partners who have come in who they've done a lot of really good initial work and kind of like safety stabilization. I think there's a lot of really great resources now for couples out there starting the journey. A lot of structure they've been through, kind of a full disclosure impact letter, things like that. Maybe his sobriety, his recovery is really good. And she's saying, I'm really struggling to trust him though, and I don't know why she can't quite put her finger on it. And as we dig into it, we realize there are maybe some other areas in his life where he's struggling to self regulate that her body is picking up on. Right. And she knows how dangerous that is now. Right. And so maybe it has nothing to do with them. Maybe it's stress at work. Right. And she knows that. He said, you know what, when I feel really devalued or like a failure, I. In the past I've acted out, right? But now I just get anxious. And if he's not dealing with that anxiety and that stress in a healthy way, he's carrying it around her, she's seeing that as a red flag of, oh, he's not headed in a good direction. This doesn't feel safe. If he doesn't catch this and take care of this, I know where it can lead. Right. And so if they can't connect those dots as a couple and understand how everything in your life now plays a part in your healing journey, in your recovery journey. Right. And what I love for couples is that as they realize this and as they really take on their whole life, they get this holistic sense of health now and growth. Right? Which is so cool. The couples we work with, they're like, wow, I feel better at work. I'm a better parent. Right. I relate to my friends better. Like all of a sudden, all these different areas of their life are getting transformed because they are getting healthier and they're showing up in those areas healthier. And so being able to kind of see where that regulation piece might be showing up and what tools are needed to really demonstrate that ability to self regulate in all areas can sometimes help push that couple through that safety Stage into kind of that rebuilding trust stage.

That's so good. I got so many things in my mind I gotta keep going. But that is, that is so many trails I want to go down on that. But I remember just learning that, you know, Gary Smalley used to say, he's an old time guy. He used to say that conflict done well can be a doorway into intimacy. And that's kind of what I hear you saying when we have those things that trigger us. And I had to learn to say to my wife years ago, I'm not okay. But I was talking about my emotional state, not my sobriety or lack of sobriety. But I thought if I tell her I'm not okay, it's going to be triggering. So we both learned to self regulate. We both learned to say, I'm not okay, here's what I'm feeling. And those became opportunities where, oh, it's going to be a little safer to lean in here. So, so many good things.

I think it underscores in recovery how important it is that we're not just there to stop or change a behavior. And we talk about that a lot at Pure Desire. And sometimes when we're the addict or struggler, that's what we want. We're just like, well, life's basically fine. But yeah, I've been crossing these lines and I don't want to do that and I want to stop. And what can happen in recovery then is when they've gone three months, maybe six months without the behavior, they're like, well, I don't understand why, you know, she's still mad or we're not better because I'm not doing it anymore. But what maybe the spouse is observing is there's still outbursts of anger. There are still areas where you seem to be very isolated and withdrawn. There's still times where you come home from work just totally frustrated and you don't engage with anyone. And those are the behaviors that, as you brought up, create the triggers in the sense of, are they really healing and recovering or have they just figured out a way to keep the behavior at bay? And how long will this last? I know in our story that was my wife's great fear of, well, when will the other shoe drop? Things are good now, but how long will this last? Because it's always felt to me in the past like, like I thought things were good. And then Nick comes and says, I got to tell you something. And just kind of waiting for that. Well, if all I'm doing is saying, hey, I'm not acting out anymore. Why are you not trusting me? That's not helpful. Versus our spouse seeing, wow, they're learning to live life differently. They're engaging with our kids differently. They're approaching their work differently. And when they have a hard, stressful day, they don't come home and just watch TV for four hours and ignore us. They come and tell me what's going on, and we sit down and talk through it. Or I hear them calling a group member. I watch them doing some journaling or walking through their day in a faster scale. Like, those are the kind of activities that then they're seeing this is impacting all of life, not just are they stopping the behavior. And so I think that's encouragement I'd give. When couples get stuck, it's. They're not seeing a holistic recovery. They're only seeing the behavior as the measurement of whether or not they're healthy.

Yeah, good. I got. I got another question. This is one of my favorite questions that I love talking about within Christendom is where and how does forgiveness play a role in the process? I think forgiveness gets a bad rap and forgiveness also misused as spiritual bypass. But I can't throw the baby out with the bathwater here, so I can't wait to hear your answers.

Yeah, I think I may disagree, but.

I want to hear it anyway. But so anyway, please help me, because I'm always learning on this.

Great.

Well, I think what we recognize is the whole process is a process of forgiveness. Forgiveness starts at day one, and it continues on. We, in our 12 years of recovery are still practicing forgiveness. It is a practice of that kind of. Paul talks about that ministry of reconciliation. It doesn't stop. It's not this one. And done. And so. And. And that's what we were noticing with work. Right. There was a lot of ideas that kind of. We keep these people separate as if they're not married. And we're like, they're still married. They're going usually to the same house. They're parenting the same kids. The couple's work begins day one. But it's different all along the way. The same thing with forgiveness. Forgiveness early on is about that kind of restoration and restitution. Am I showing up differently? Am I demonstrating that I'm trustworthy? Therefore, forgiveness and reconciliation will make sense between us. And then after that, forgiveness looks like that kind of coming together and grieving together. What we both lost. And I think that is the process that we weren't really understanding in our own recovery was the need to Actually come together in forgiveness and not it just to be this kind of, I forgive you and you're now equal to me. But for us, can we come together and acknowledge what we lost, what I lost for years in my addiction and what Joanna and I lost as a couple, what she lost as a wife. That forgiveness process can take a long time and can be part of our kind of continuing journey, right? We're in this kind of continuing cycle of celebration and mourning, right? We. We celebrate like, wow, this is really, really good. And sometimes we mourn. Sometimes we mourn what. What we. What we could have had even more of, right?

And it's much more unified, that experience of forgiveness. The higher you are in the pyramid, right? And so, like he was saying, forgiveness looks a lot different in the. The early stages, and we're doing much different work in terms of that forgiveness process. As we reestablish trust and move into vulnerability, we get to experience compassion and empathy for one another, right? We actually get to see each other compassionately and hear those stories of pain. Usually when we're working with couples, we're working with two traumatized individuals, oftentimes the betrayer who's brought an addiction into the relationship, right? They have experience of trauma early on in their life that they are healing, that they're grieving from. And then obviously that betrayed spouse has been traumatized and is trying to heal. And so being able to, once that trust is there, that safety is there, lean in and hear and understand each other's stories and express compassion and empathy, we believe that is a piece of that forgiveness process right now. Right? And so there's so many different parts along the way that go into that experience of forgiveness and reconciliation.

For it's so powerful to think of forgiveness as a process. And I think it's a mistake we make of thinking as forgiveness as an event that now it's over and done and we're all better. Because I know what happens. And I did some of this to say, you know, if my wife is angry or frustrated about something in my recovery, that go to can be, well, I thought you forgave me. Like, why are you still mad? And maybe in that moment, it's not even about forgiveness. They've just been re. Triggered by something I did or didn't do. And. And just because we've forgiven. And I think my wife for most of that time would say, yes, I forgave you, and I'm still working through what that means and how to process the anger and the hurt.

And I'm still pissed is another way of saying it.

Yeah. So when we feel like, well, forgiving me means that you're never angry again, we never bring this up. And yes, I think the heart of forgiveness is to say, I am choosing not to hold this over your head and sit in judgment against you. And that should be what we're attempting to do. But as you said, Matthew, like, we're in process and we don't do it perfectly. We're going to make mistakes. And even in forgiveness, our spouse might realize, yes, I spoke words, I forgave you and I intended it. But then another pocket of unaddressed hurt and anger has come up and I just need to work through it. And if we treat it like, well, I thought you forgave me. And now we have to go back to the event. And I think we really stumble along versus seeing, man, we're in this process of growing together, offering and receiving forgiveness and understanding. There's probably more to come. And that every bout of anger or them reminding us of something from our past doesn't mean they're unforgiving. It's just an indication there's more that we need to keep working on.

Yeah. Nick, I'm going to quote a famous author who was quoted Jesus 7 times 70. And I think to me it speaks a process that forgiveness is a tool, not an emotional state. And so if someone says, rod, are you still angry? You should forgive. I'm on number 12 forgiving them today of 490.

Yeah.

Forgiveness is a way to help with the grief and help with the resentment. It's not a level of where you're at. It's a tool in the process and I think it just gets misused. So thank you guys for just your perspective on that. I think it's so helpful. And we can seize forgiveness as a beautiful thing when given and received and as a part of this process of the pyramid you're talking about.

Yeah. When I think it's so important to remember, the idea is recovery is discipleship. When I was in recovery, I learned to check in with myself every day. And that's just a better way to live. We learn to check in with each other every day and that's just a better way to be married. But we've also learned in this kind of big forgiveness event what repair should look like for day to day things. A lot of times we'll talk to couples like, hopefully everything you're learning in recovery is just going in your tool belt and you're using it because like you said, you're going to make a mistake, you're going to violate the love and trust of the relationship. Hopefully not as significantly as maybe was done in the betrayal. But there are going to be these smaller things. And. And we were amazed at how many couples, they just didn't know how to repair small things, right. Little things where there was unforgiveness. Right. Even just. Even if they were able to let go of the big betrayal, they would maybe hold on to other things, right? Oh, you didn't call me today. And so a lot of what we're trying to help them to see is the things you're doing in your recovery journey just become part of the rhythm of your life. And that's really the joy. I heard someone say recovery is supposed to feel like salvation, right? It's setting me free of that life in the flesh. It's giving life in the spirit possible. And that's why I'm excited to keep living it. It's. It's not always easy, right? It can be hard, right, to go and. And to seek forgiveness for something you've done, but it's. It's recognizing, oh, I like that life. I like being in that.

And even when we know that, I think we need to keep reframing that for recovery couples, because I think, like you said, so many buy into, like, oh, once there's forgiveness and reconciliation, we never have to talk about that ever again. Right? It's kind of the opposite, though, is what we see. And sometimes I think I scare couples a little bit early on, but I tell them, right, the more you experience forgiveness, that is real freedom, right? Recovery, this process should be real freedom. And reconciliation is going to create that freedom that I want to talk about. I'm excited about it. I'm going to tell my story. I'm not scared to talk about our past anymore. Right? And you kind of see their faces like, wait, what? We're gonna have to keep talking about this.

But.

But it is. Because when I experienced that, it is such a powerful change that I want to tell other people about that experience.

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes I just want to say this. You know, I think that I've been a pastor for 35 years, and sometimes people would say, hey, we have recovery groups for people in our church that need them. And I sometimes think, like, yeah, I hope so. That's all humanity, you know?

Yeah, exactly.

Recovery just gets such a bad rap. Like, we have something for those people rather than gang. Look, it's all us.

We all need this process.

And so seeing it as a Discipleship pathway. And like, once you've tasted it and once you've experienced it, you really don't want to walk away from it. Why would I stop? I've worked on these areas. I want to keep going. So thank you for helping reframe that.

Matthew and Joanna, we have many people who listen to the podcast because they're early in recovery. They're trying to get advice, they're trying to understand what to do. Sometimes it's easier to listen to a podcast than call a counselor or go to a group. And maybe they're just trying to figure out, what do we do here? And so they've been listening to a podcast. So in that regard, what practical steps could a couple take right away to start moving forward, no matter where they're at on the pyramid, and maybe they're down towards the very bottom. What would you suggest for them to get started in this area?

One of the things that we really, we recommend for couples pretty much wherever they are in the journey is a step. It's a step of honesty and it's learning to communicate more openly and more consistently with one another. And so we've actually created a couples check in that has a very clear structure around the, the, some of the key pieces for starting to rebuild a healthy, safe connection. And sometimes we, we know we need to do that, but we have no idea. Right. What to actually say to each other, what to actually talk about. And so I think we really had a heart to, to help couples with an initial structure. And so it's a structure that will create safety for them as they're sharing, but they still might get stuck. Right. And we would say if we want you to get stuck in some ways, because that'll let you know where you need to do the work, where you have some growth areas. And we absolutely recommend reaching out for support when you get stuck, because this is really a really hard journey. And you are not alone. There are so many people who understand it, who get it, who want to walk with you along that path.

Yeah. And I just kind of echo that idea of community. When I was in early recovery, I was in a 12 step group. I was in a pure desire group. I was working through the seven pillars. I was doing as much as I could because I knew I needed people around me who got it. One of the things we experienced in our relationship early on in that process is Joanna had a hard time getting my experience and I had a hard time getting hers. So having those communities that kind of got our own experiences. But we're also still supportive of our relationship, but they wanted our relationship to work was so helpful. And I think one of the things that really hit us as we got further in recovery was how that community kind of there wasn't community for couples. And so one of our big passions has been to connect couples in recovery, especially in those later stages, because there is this kind of reality sometimes that you face of. It's hard to share my story with people who haven't had this experience. And. And we've worked with a lot of couples. They're in small groups at churches or Bible studies, and they'll say, like, you know, I don't know, when they ask us about our marriage, it's a little tricky to talk about this. And we actually created a couples group program to bring those couples together. And it's amazing to watch. And they'll say, oh, it's so nice. When I talk about D Day, everybody gets it right. And when we talk about slips and relapses and triggers, like, everybody in the room just understands. And so I think we really want to remind the community that you surround yourselves with matters so much to your journey and to not forget that. I think I said, it's easy in later recovery to think, well, I'm doing so well. I don't need that community support anymore. But it really matters. It matters as you continue to move through the process, even if you're at the top of the pyramid, you need that community. You need those couples who are pushing themselves and going, let's get better, let's get stronger. And so that's something we always, always recommend.

That's so good. And it's so nice to be around other couples that don't have shame. I hear people say when they come to the summit, the pure desire gathering once a year, they say, these are my people. The first question is, what was your D day? Or whatever? They're like, nobody has shame. They're like, these are my people. And thank you for creating communities like that through your work that are inviting people to do this. Hey, I've loved being with you guys, proud of you and your work, what you're doing. Final just encouragement to our listeners. What's one thing you would say just to the husband, wife listening today that just would maybe encourage them to take another step? You've already said so much. But anyway.

I think I would just remind people there's a lot of people that want this to work for you. God is actively wanting this to work. I'm always reminded of the promises in Luke where, you know, the lost coin, the lost sheep, the lost son. The goal of this whole process is for you to be found and for you to find that healing. And it's been so fun for us to be connected to other ministries and programs. Just like Pure Desire. I mean, there's so many people that are doing really good work. And it's so. I think the thing that set me on my path to recovery was knowing that I wasn't alone in it. I felt so alone in my addiction. I know other people struggled with it, but I really didn't believe other people would be on board with me getting healed. And once I started recovery and I started seeing all the people who cared, I started seeing a God who cared not only for me, but for Joanna and our relationship. That was just a huge turning point. And so I think I just always want to remind people that you're not alone in this.

I think for partners healing, just reminding them that they have power over their own healing journey, it can be really tempting to think my ability to heal is dependent on his decisions are our relationship status or things like that. And so going, understanding. No, it does. It doesn't have to be only attached to those things that you have the power to decide, this is what I want for me. You can take those steps to start healing that trauma. And kind of like echoing what Matthew was saying. And there are so many people out there who understand that journey, who get it, who want to come alongside you and help you in that process.

Yeah, Yeah. I think what I would say as we wrap up is that encouragement of find people and groups that will support the values and the preferred future that you're aiming for. You know, you mentioned this, Matthew, that to be in a community that both supports you and supports the idea or the goal of your marriage working is really, really important. Because the truth is, in this area, there are people that will gravitate more towards, you know, he's awful, just forget him and move on. Or she's, you know, she's angry, just forget her. Go find a new life, your yourself. And in a world, in a culture that I think treats divorce and marriage fairly casually, we may need to be adamant or sincere about finding places and people like yourselves that say no. We believe the marriage can work. And that's not to just practice spiritual bypass or act like there wasn't hurt or pain, but it's to take that approach of, I can do recovery with the future of my relationship in mind. Because I think if we're, you know, sincere in our faith, we don't want our marriage to end. We want to honor our vows. We want to see what we can do to make this work. And there are definitely groups that will support that and there are others that will so, you know, criminalize the addict or so cause victimization on the betrayal. That coming out of that mindset is really, really challenging. And we've just, we've seen couples get stuck in some of that. That may create healing for them, but doesn't leave an opportunity for the marriage to recover. And I love that you guys have seen that gap. You've seen that need and have said, we want to help ultimately marriages thrive and recover through the lens of the work the individuals do. So thank you for being a part of that. Rodney, a final encouragement from you.

Yeah, just a final word. I want you two to look right at me. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for being a part of a movement to bring hope, healing and freedom to men and women and families and couples. It matters and you're making a big difference.

Yeah.

And in my opinion, there's two things. When you go to Memphis, find these guys and go to Gus's Fried Chicken. Those are, those are two of the best things in Memphis. Gus's Fried Chicken and getting a hold of this couple because they can help you guys.

So to be in the same. Yeah, to be in the same arena as Gus's Fried Chicken. We take that as.

Get their book building True Intimacy. So get that book. If you're a couple that's stuck or you need more help, get ahold of them and continue to grow.

Matthew and Joanna, tell us where listeners can keep up with you guys. Where can they get the book? Where can they find out more about the work that you're doing? Please give us all the shameless plug that you can. We're ready.

Well, what's really nice about having a very unique last name is it makes it really easy to find us. We're the only rabsmiths in the world. You just have to type in rabsmithteam.com and if you go to ravsmithteam.com free, we've got that free resource that couples check in. We'd love for you to have all of your listeners to have. And it comes with a 30 day encouragement kind of campaign. So we walk you through how to incorporate this into your life, how to use it, how to really make it into something that strengthens that level of honesty. So that's where they can find us. We'll make sure links are available and so people can be in touch.

And we have our couples groups and we actually have are just starting to announce we're going to do our first ever couples retreat in Colorado Springs, Colorado this November. And so really just a place to gather all of those couples who are meeting but maybe have never met each other in person. Gather us all together to just really celebrate what God is doing in relationships.

Awesome. So it's rabsmithteam.com find them online, get the free resource, pick up their book Building True Intimacy and check out all the great resources they have for couples. So Matthew, Joanna, thank you so much for joining us. We loved having you on the podcast today.

Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

And if you are a fan of today's show of this content, please leave us a review. Subscribe, share it with somebody. Give us a like all of those are ways that more people, more couples can hear this life giving message. And if you'd like more information about pure Desire, groups, resources or counseling, Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you you are not alone.