399 - Reintegrating Sex After Betrayal

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Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 399, and here joining me as he has been throughout this series, is my co host, Mr. Rodney Wright. Rodney, welcome back the program.

Thank you, Nick. It's been fun being on this little miniseries here and I'm excited to be with us today because one of my favorite people in the world is on this podcast with us.

Yes, we were joking a little bit as we started the episode that I'm pretty sure, and I'd have to go back and think through 399 episodes. It can be hard to remember, but I'm pretty sure it is the first time we've ever had a guest and co host that were married, that the guest has never been one of our spouses. I think my wife and I were kind of both guests and Trevor interviewed us a while back. But very unique to have both you and Traci on and just to get her perspective and Rebecca on this. Really what can be a dicey, challenging, difficult conversation for couples is how do we reintegrate sex after there's been betrayal and the challenges around that. And so the gals spoke about that and I thought, yeah, it was a really powerful conversation today.

I would agree. They gave some great responses and these are two real healthy individuals that I have a lot of respect for. And I think just, you know, coming into this podcast, being a listener and a learner about learning about ourselves, learning about our partner, hearing some of the questions, where maybe some of the questions come from, maybe some immature or some cultural thinking. And I like that we're kind of going deeper on some of this about, you know, speaking about maturity, speaking about health personally as well as in the relationship, and they give some really great insight I think our listeners are going to really enjoy.

Yeah, well, this is part three of three, our three part series on healthy relationships and healthy marriages. And I hope it encourages listeners in their own marriage or if they're single. I think today is really a vital conversation because if we're single and have never been married, it really addresses maybe a lot of the common misconceptions that are out there around marriage, sexuality and what it would be like if I just get married. And obviously if you're single and divorced, it may be some of these very topics that were a part of the undoing of a marriage. And I think an opportunity Here for us all to learn, whether single or married. And these are two truly our two experts on this topic. Both Rebecca and Traci are on the Pure Desire counseling team, and this is what they do for a living, is they work with couples who are typically early in recovery and are asking these very questions about how do we reintegrate sexuality? After walking through a lot of really hard stuff and a lot of betrayal, what does this look like? And I think they offer us some great perspective and thoughts today. So in audience, I think you're really going to enjoy it. Rodney, any last thoughts before we jump in?

Well, I appreciate that you mentioned the single individual, Nick, because I think sexual health is a great thing to grow in, whether we're single or married. How we think about sexuality, how we communicate it, how we manage our sexual feelings and our sexual thinking. And then in marriage, if you come into marriage with a sense of health, what a gift you're bringing in. And many of us had to unlearn some things before we move forward. And people like Rebecca and Traci are really helping couples do that. And so I think this is a wonderful episode and let maturity be your goal in this arena, and I think it'll serve you well.

Yeah. So here is our conversation with Rebecca Vandermeer and Tracy Wright on reintegrating sex after Betrayal. Rebecca Vandermeer and Tracy Wright, two wonderful clinicians here at Pure Desire, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you.

It's lovely to be back.

Well, as we discussed in the introduction, this was initially a breakout session at our summit. So shout out to everyone to consider joining us at the next Pure Desire summit. But it was a topic that we felt like, needed to come back around as a podcast and get that opportunity for a wider audience to hear about it. And so let's jump in with these questions on how do we reintegrate sex after betrayal. So, for starters, this can be a very challenging topic. So let's just talk about that. Why is this a challenge for so many couples to reintegrate sex after betrayal?

I was going to throw in the obvious answer. So Rebecca couldn't go to the really deep places.

No, go for it, Stacey.

I love it. I was just going to say obvious answer. The wound is in that area. The wound is around the sexuality, that part of the marriage. So that person is our closest relationship. And now we feel betrayal in this really personal area that's about the relationship or that's a part of the relationship. Important part. Yeah.

And I mean, you gotta. You gotta think about it as well, there's so many realities that come into play in this when reintegrating or even con. Considering to reintegrate sex after recovery or betrayal. And so remembering that each person has their own different reality and their own different experience and how they intersect each other, how they, you know, how they play together within the relationship is a big deal. Such as, you know, the fear for the betrayed spouse. Right. The fear of maybe triggering the recovering addict or for the recovering addict to face the fear of being triggered or not knowing if the wife in this case is present or at a place to. To reengage. You got to remember that this is a time in which the couple is. Is beginning to deconstruct what their sex life has been within their relationship. It's a season to figure out what's safe and what's healthy for both of them. And oftentimes the challenge that. The challenge, the biggest challenge in that is the lack of communication even prior to the discovery or disclos closure. And so there's a lot of elements that come into play here.

But I.

That's what comes to mind as far as the challenge.

I think piggybacking on that too, what you're saying is in having different experiences, Rebecca, which you meant, which you mentioned, is that sometimes the struggling person is feeling more healthy, more open, honest, connected and desiring that connection to their spouse. And then the betrayed partner is feeling less connected or got ran over by a truck. Right. And I may never heal. So the disparity of where we're at in this can. Can cause some really issues in this area for sure.

Yeah, ladies, those are. Those are really good insight. You know, Tracy, you talk about being wounded. So on the physical body, there's one person, they get a wound, they go to physical therapy to improve. But it's just one person involved in a marriage. There's one marriage, but it involves two people. And so this is where that getting outside help to start to reintegrate health and to unlearn and to relearn just like you would go slow in physical therapy to reengage your body physically. So in this relationship now, you're not dealing with just one individual, but two. And the different wounds in each individual that getting help is really critical in how to re. Engage when and how and the timing and reengaging in a healthy way. Good point.

Well, and you brought this up, Traci, that the couple may not be at the same place at the same time. And that doesn't mean one of them is the problem. That's just normal Life that in recovery, we're going to be in different places and different readiness. And so couples just have to navigate that. And what you said, Rebecca, it really is learning a new rhythm, a new way of life. And in some ways, it's like learning to speak a new language. I think what we find is that many couples, when they look back on the sexual connection they had when there was addiction and struggle going on, that it was primarily a physical connection and that maybe neither of them was fully present in that moment because the addict or struggler had all these other thoughts in their mind that were coming in or they were dealing with a lot of shame. And very often that betrayed spouse, even if they didn't fully know what was going on, may have had a level of disassociation taking place during sexual where they were there in body, but they weren't engaging heart, soul and mind. And so in recovery, we're not just saying, well, how can you get back to having a frequency of physical connection, physical sex? We're really trying to invite a couple into this integration of body, mind and spirit. And then I'm becoming present to and vulnerable to my spouse in a new way that has layers to it. And just like speaking a new language, we might take some steps and realize we have more work to do. And it takes time. And all the things. Yeah. That just say, I think our world has overly simplified sex to just being, you know, just do what comes naturally, when the truth is this is a very significant moment of reconnection that has layers to it. And so just being patient and allowing some of that to develop, because it's not just going back to what we've had. It's learning to have something new and better than what we had.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, to your last point, not going back to how things were, the majority of the couples that we worked with when we've asked them, would you like to go back to how things were? Like, is this part of the goal for you is to rebuild what was there? And for the majority of them, they don't. Because the truth is that there was a lot of elements and dysfunction and brokenness that was getting in the way of true intimacy. And so, yes, it's rebuild and recreating a whole new dynamic, especially with your sexual relationship and your marriage.

Becca Tracey, here's another question. What are some of the common quote unquote mistakes that you've seen couples make when they're working to revolution to reintegrate the physical dynamic in their marriage? Some common mistakes, maybe that You've seen.

That's good. Too quick. Let's just go straight to a quick answer. Trying to reintegrate rather quickly, whether it's because of the fears that are there, whether it's because you either one, haven't or both have not taken the time to really heal and learn about not just the process of addiction, but know.

About your own narrative.

Right. Know about your own story and. And having more knowledge of yourself and how that intersected with your spouses, meaning communication as well. That's a big. Another one that oftentimes we see is lack of communication, even predating the disclosure. And so not talking and just going through maybe reverting to older patterns or early in the relationship patterns as a way to create safety and connection is oftentimes one of the. Some of the mistakes that we see. Tracy, I don't know if you want to add anything in there.

Well, sometimes I think I hear kind of an idealistic view of like, there's one normal way. Right way to do this. We're all messed up. We're, you know, it's never going to get better. I think our culture gives us obviously some idealistic views in our entertainment sometimes. And so just going back to that, giving ourselves a break and cutting back to the. Like you said, Rebecca, looking backwards before we move forwards and evaluating what we have to work with and letting it be our own. So I think sometimes that's a mistake in feeling like there's an idealistic way. Instead of meeting each other in. As we heal, we get to write the story in this area. And that's a really beautiful way to reclaim what feels like it's been stolen from us because we get to say this is ours and we're recreating that. That's a really beautiful, beautiful possibility there. Yeah.

To. To. To continue on that thought. It's one of the big mistakes that I can think of as well is not focusing on rebuilding or creating emotional intimacy before the reintegration that emotional intimacy should be not. I know we shouldn't shoot ourselves. Right.

But. But.

It'S advisable to have that as your priority before you consider reintegrating sex into the relationship. So too quick and maybe even not focusing on the emotional intimacy would be my biggest two that come to mind.

Yeah. Sometimes we might be suffering too, from simply a lack of education and awareness. When I look back at our story, I did not have the tools or understanding that I do now. And I was still operating in some of the mindset of I have these desires and needs and I have a wife who can help me meet them. And I think my wife also had an understanding of, hey, his pornography addiction is not about me, but still feeling like, but I can help him in this process by having sex. And so we were still kind of engaging in this way of sexuality that was more about my needs, quote, unquote. And looking back at that may have been playing into an addictive mindset. Even though I wasn't still looking at pornography, there was a lot of my mindset that needed to be changed. And I think without having some of the education or tools or equipping, we just played into that of like, well, hey, at least every few days, let's try to have sex. And I don't think I was being demanding, but I think there were subtle ways. I was still creating this expectation of, I have needs and desires, and you're helping me navigate those. And now we're doing it together. And so it seemed like we were getting healthier, but I think we were were both a little naive to how much we were still playing into my addictive past and my mindset. And if we'd have had even the ability to ask some of these questions and say, hey, what is the purpose behind having sex? What are we looking to do as a married couple when we do this? What is the outcome we're looking to achieve? It might have helped us pull back a little and go, oh, I don't know that we're yet doing that. I think we're just having sex so that, you know, Nick's quote, unquote, needs are met. And it wasn't healthy. So I feel like that was a mistake we made. And, I mean, God used it, we worked through it, but we just didn't realize the way it was, maybe perpetuating some of the mindset that I was stuck in.

Yeah, I wonder if some people have a mistake of thinking, we can just fix this on our own, we can just patch this up on our own. And I'm so grateful that there are guides and clinicians and counselors and resources that can help couples have a process of reintegrating physical, because they've walked these roads before. And so you're not alone. You can have somebody that walks with a couple and grateful for that. As you rebuild honesty and safety and trust, there's a lot of other pieces than just moving quickly to the physical. And so it's so nice to have educated men and women on a clinical team that can walk with the male and female, depending on who's the betrayed and who's the addicted to help them take those steps together. So I would simply say one mistake is thinking you have to do it all on your own. There's competent resources out there to walk with you.

Yeah. So we talked about some of the mistakes here of trying to reintegrate too quickly or doing it without significant connection between the couple first. So let's look at the flip side of when you have seen couples do this successfully, you feel like they have really reintegrated a new rhythm, a new health into their sexual connection. What would you say makes them successful? What are some of the key strategies that you have seen couples engage in?

I go back to. We'll probably go back a lot to that emotional connection, because Rebecca and I have talked so much about when that is our focus is connecting our hearts, connecting in all ways, then we can build upon that, and then we can communicate and we can talk about what our needs are. Such an important piece. And as well as asking questions and having that education, I think someone telling you, which I hear, you know, in our counseling, some of the male clinicians just saying, you're not going to die if you don't have sex. So sometimes we, you know, we have been. We have this. These misnomers about that, or we think, like you to talked about Nick, that I can keep him from if I'm having sex enough. We have things that we believe that aren't necessarily true. And so I think implementing some of those, then I think for Rodney and I think over the years, because our work, beginning of our healing work was over 25 years ago. So I think us learning some of those things allows this freedom and this more healthy place to give and receive. So, like, I don't feel like, oh, no, I'm going to disappoint Rodney if I say I don't feel like having sex. And that's okay. I don't have to even make up the excuse that I have a headache. I just, you know, that was the old time.

Speak truth. Yeah.

No is a complete sentence. Right.

I don't have to do that. And also out of a healthy relationship.

Right.

If I sometimes, if I don't feel like it, it's like when Rodney doesn't feel like taking a walk with me. And he's like, but I love her. I care about her. I want to take a walk today. I'm going to say yes or I'm going to say no. And I feel like that freedom to do that, that is really helps with having that success because you're building Something that's healthy, give and take and around our wants, you know, our and our desires.

That's just to make that point. Tracy, that's such a powerful thing to pause on and say if we don't have the ability to. It really takes all the meaning out of our yes. And I wonder how many couples just need to hear that of when your spouse has total freedom to say no. In a healthy relationship, the meaning it gives to their yes. And that connection just, I think can grow so much. I just wanted to really emphasize that point because I think it's so important.

Yeah, I love that.

I agree.

And yeah, if being intentional on that emotional intimacy. Right. Like, as to your point, Tracy, it leads to making communication easier and having a whole setup of things that you know that you, if you do this, you are at a good place. Right. If you, the more you check in, like even those dates that you have, like be very intentional about how you're going to spend that time together, having non sensual, not, not sexual touch, being part of your relationship and knowing even the vulnerabilities in each other so that you can be a healing force in each other's lives is part of that success. The more we feel seen and valued and connected, the more all of us will be in for anything that comes your way.

Yeah, that's so good. And I like the statement about not hearing no as a value statement, but just an observation someone's making. And sometimes when we hear a no or we don't get our way, we can hear it in a wrong way, like it's a value statement rather than the person's just making another observation. It's not a right time or a good time. And so just that mutual respect that you have for one for another and building that is so key in helping us move forward and just navigate the relationship on a lot of levels.

Yeah. I look back to at our marriage and would say when we have encountered that our sexual connection is a byproduct of emotional connection, that has always been the healthiest season or the healthiest thing for our marriage. And I'm not trying to say to a couple that like, anytime you're considering sex, you've got to have this perfect emotional connection. And I think sometimes we can put all this weight behind it, but we certainly don't want physical connection to ever become a substitute for emotional connection. And I think that happens for a lot of couples. And so when we do really place the emphasis in the relationship on are we emotionally connecting, are we connecting spiritually, are we really Loving and encouraging and blessing one another well in that area of life. And then the sexual rhythm becomes kind of a byproduct of that, that it's built on this healthy foundation, as it should be, versus kind of taking on that central place of well, are we having sex or not? That's a central role that I don't think sex was ever meant to play. And so just to echo how important that's been in our marriage, even now, 15 years into recovery, we would still say that like when we're connecting emotionally, that is always the best precursor to our physical sexual connection.

You don't have to have it all figured out. And we're doing the emotional stuff perfectly right to reengage. That's where it comes back to that consent and mutual and respect and you know, being able to look at that when we're determining when to re engage.

So we had listeners who have written in questions around this topic. I think it is one that people are like, yeah, but what about or what if or what about this unique situation? So we want to talk through a couple of those. And the first one that came from a listener is this. They said, do you recommend a time of celibacy after relapse? And is the risk of him leaving greater if celibacy goes on too long, at least in his opinion? So a couple of layers to that question. Tracy, Rebecca, where do you want to go with that one?

Well, we can start with the celibacy time after relapse. From the standpoint of a betrayed spouse. Absolutely. For either one. When it comes down to it, for either one, whether you're the recovering sex addict or you're the betrayed spouse, absolutely. We would recommend that for the sake of making sure that you are taking care of yourself, that you are processing through what's coming up for you in terms of the pain, the triggers, the circumstances in which the relapse happened. I mean, there's so many things, right, to make sure that again, taking your time, it's, it's always going to pay off as opposed to jumping too quick to anything, right. And just having those moments to sit with the pain, the thoughts, the feelings, the memories that are coming up for you and processing through that, it's going to set you up for a better re engagement reintegration of sex.

When you do many couples, we would recommend it because you have the brain changes that happen from taking that time off for the struggler or the person that has that addictive pattern or coping pattern. And then to take a look at what's going on in the relationship, what's working and what's not working. And there are many times where the betrayed partner has felt a sense of obligation. And so they've created this dynamic that's really unhealthy and not really enjoyable. It doesn't cover that mutual, pleasurable, connected kind of piece. And so going back and looking through that, if they're doing it for the sake of kind of walking through some of those things, it can be really a benefit. Everybody doesn't have to do that and everybody doesn't do that to be able to have a healthy relationship. But it is something to look into and definitely see that there's some, there's some benefits of that. I think that second part of the question of leaving that kind of talks about kind of obligation which sometimes can create resentment. So you just have to look at what's underneath that and then know that both, both partners have the choice to stay in and work on this or to leave the relationship. And of course there's fear. A lot of times there's fear on either side of that. But there, there's that choice. But I think if we're not. If we're making the main thing a heart connection and growing in that and then we're getting support if we want to, if we're finding it difficult to move back into a non sexual physical relationship or a sexual relationship, do we have the support around us to talk that through or do we, are we able to do that?

Yes. I feel like the, the risk, risk of fear that that may come up from. For, of. Of the person leaving it. It just seems to me like maybe the focus is more solely or mainly on the sex act or on the sex in itself. Right. Other than the overall health of the relationship. And so just a short input in there that just comes to mind of. Well, the risk and fear will are there. They're always there. But what is your focus and what are you actually working towards? What are your goals? That's what maybe that what may be more should be the focus on.

Yeah, I hear like there could be a bigger issue going on here for the second half of this question. But it's obviously honesty, safety and trust. After relapse, you rebuild those. There's no magical time frame, but the couple gets to work that out or with third party that's guiding them. It helps rebuild that we have honesty now, there's safety established and we can start rebuilding trust which is such a great foundation for vulnerability and intimacy that happens. So going back to that.

Yeah, I was going to echo that, that if someone is communicating like, hey, if we don't have sex soon enough, I'm leaving this marriage. That says a lot more, I think, about the state of their heart and where the marriage is at. And that's a deeper question than just are we having sex or not? And I'd say vi versa. If a spouse is feeling like, well, I'm having sex to try to keep them from leaving the marriage, that is revealing again, something deeper that is dysfunctional about the basic trust and connection in that marriage. And if sex is what's going to keep them there. I'm not sure that's even a healthy answer. Are we perpetuating some unhealth going on? And so if you're in that second half of the question, I think you've got to be willing to look deeper at what's going on and acknowledge, as we've already said, that having sex is probably not the answer to try to save the marriage because it's putting the focus on the wrong place. I did want to follow up gals, and maybe just for our listeners to help them frame some of this, let's say they've been walking in recovery and there's a relapse and they're saying, well, should we now have a time of abstinence after a relapse? And I'm hearing both of you say, yeah, that a time of abstinence after relapse is healthy. But are you talking that should be a couple of days, a couple of weeks, a couple of months, a couple of years. I'm sure listeners all have different ideas. Well, what do you mean there should be some abstinence after relapse? And I know every situation is different, but how might you frame what are expectations in that kind of timeline?

Absolutely. I feel like that's where the communication comes into play. And pair that up with. It's very relative to each couple. Right. It's a personal thing. And so for the spouse to get to a place where. For the betrayed spouse to get to a place where she either knows or is trying to figure out how long does it take me personally to feel like I've taken care of myself, that I've regrouped, that we as a couple have had the time to refocus. Is that a week? Is that two weeks? There's no right or wrong. It really is more about having that communication and that knowledge and self awareness of. And teamwork.

Right.

In terms of like both of you being on supporting each other in that.

Well, and is There something that I need to be able to move back to towards that person. So I think when we talk about abstinence, there's, you know, I'm just beginning the journey, you know, and so maybe we recommend a 30 or a 90 day process. Right. That's a retraining of the brain. That's, this is our first time and.

Yeah, you're talking initial recovery.

Yeah. And sometimes a relapse. We've already been working our program. There's a relax relapse and we are evaluating that and we're, we're getting back on that track of recovery and health. And I love what Rebecca said. The betrayed partner is looking at what do I need to feel safe to take some space and distance. And then I would add, what do I need to be able to move back towards you? I may need to ask for something new to move back towards you or reevaluate what plan boundaries I have in place already and are they working for me.

Beautiful. That's exactly what I was thinking. That that's, it's, it's a dynamic. It's not a, it's. This is not like a cookie cutter process. Right. So if after a relapse you realize, hey, I, I may need a week or let's take a week that's together. Take a week and whatnot. And then you realize that that wasn't, that wasn't enough or whatever the case, then you can change that for future. Hopefully there's no future relapses. Of course, in an ideal world. But having that plan in place of. All right, let's try different things, different ways until we find what really works for us and sets us up for success.

Yeah. And I would simply say how nice to be in a betrayal partner group or to be with a clinician where you can process what you need and what time works well and get some guidance along that way. Here's another question that came our way. How do you reintegrate sex as a betrayed partner if the addict can't tell the truth about his, her sexual history?

Well, we don't know the whole story like if they've had a, you know, support in a full disclosure. And so I'm trying to kind of picture that scenario they might be talking about. There are times that partners say this is the truth. I have and I'm going to make a choice within that truth. How, what I'm going to do and what feels safe to me.

Yeah. Or truth maybe being somebody shared general. General issues, but not specifics enough. So there's some nuances there where one, one partner would want the nuances of the details and the other one's just saying, in general, here's been my, my struggle. So there is things to consider before just maybe giving a blanket answer here.

And I think there's a differentiation between staying in the marriage and reintegrating sex. And I do, I do think a lot of times we need an outside third party helping us because that's a rule. And some of these questions are just going to be like that. Right. Because that's the reason that they gave these questions. They feel stuck. And when we feel stuck, that's a good indicator. Do we stay stuck? You know, I had someone ask me that earlier this week of like, I, you know, been in this for a while and I feel stuck. So want to reach out. What's my next right thing? To get support and not just live that way without doing something, you know, making a choice that's within our control.

Yeah, that's honoring yourself and honoring the relationship is important. So by saying no reintegration, you know, I go back to that professional help, to that knowing, working through your story and the partner as well. And as you guys mentioned, there's so many layers and different scenarios that can, can play into this question. But when it comes down to it, make sure that you are taking care of yourself, that you are staying true, honest with what feels healthier for you, and absolutely seek support to help you know what next steps are best.

Yeah. It seems to me like part of this question is to really reemphasize one of the things we've brought up on a lot of the Pure Desire podcasts, and that's that that obligation or duty sex is not sex, because sex is about that connection and the mutuality and pursuing the pleasure of one another. If it's just duty or out of obligation, that's intercourse. And someone may be feeling like, well, I'm being expected to have intercourse, even though I don't know what they've struggled with, they're not willing to be honest with me. And in that regard, being willing to create some boundaries and say, if I don't feel safe, and we would want to say to women, or to mention, if you don't know that you are safe from, like, STDs or other things that might come into the bedroom because your spouse isn't being fully honest, it is fully appropriate to say, I don't think it is safe or appropriate for me to have a physical relationship with you unless I know these things. And if they're resistant to that. Your boundary is not the problem in that case. It is their hesitancy to provide an environment of safety and trust and mutuality. Because that's what we're after here is not just how many times this month will we have intercourse. What we're after is how are we building a relationship around mutual love and respect and that self giving attitude. And so if that's not happening, I think, and you're the spouse that's asking for that, you need to be willing to make some boundaries and to create these guardrails to say until these things are happening or until I feel this level of safety, I don't know that it's appropriate for me to enter into that. And asking them to either address those things or to be willing to respect your boundary feels very appropriate. To do.

Cliff and Joyce Pinner talk about safety, that you gotta feel safe. And so if it ever doesn't feel safe for you, I think that's a great boundary. And they talk about in your sexual encounter, your experience with your spouse, it doesn't always have to be a 9 or 10 on a scale, but as long as it isn't a negative experience, in other words, it doesn't go below, it becomes something negative. But it can just be I'm meeting the need of my spouse or my spouse is meeting a need for me. It's just, it's not a negative experience. It's not out of obligation, it's out of love, respect and care. And I just think that's really great. And if I don't feel safe or someone doesn't feel safe, then that's maybe a good indicator here of something to listen to.

Yeah, I'll jump in. I think this is a challenging one. Someone's saying that my emotions and anxiety get in the way of me being able to explain experience an orgasm. And my husband's desire to please me gives him anxiety. So they're seeking sexual connection, but they're bringing a lot of anxiety and fear, it sounds like, into this situation. So ladies, do you have any advice?

Well, expectation is a big part of that. So Rebecca and I have talked. If we're focused on that expectation, we miss being present in the moment. We miss being present to what's going on. Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, it comes to mind. I just, my heart just sinks, you know, it just hurts knowing that there's that desire, there's that pursuit that's, you know, that you, you both are trying and then you're finding yourselves with this anxiety that keeps you from being present keeps you from loving on each other in the way that you can in the moment. And sometimes focusing on the orgasm itself or the pleasure itself, I mean that's focused on the uncertainty, right. Or on the fear of. And that removes us then from, as I mentioned, being in the here and now. How can I love on you in the most true, honest way possible? Orgasm is not the only end goal. It is a great product of sexual intercourse, but it's not the only goal. And so when we make that our goal, then we're just not focused on that right now. And so we would just go back again to that emotional intimacy to talking, communicating, maybe more. Either more non sexual talk touch or more sexual touch prior to, you know, what's foreplay and whatnot. And, and if need be, then consider going back if you haven't. Or if you, and if you have, then, if you haven't, then go find some trauma personal work to have better understanding on of what's coming up for you and how can you work together because otherwise. Yeah, I could see that being a little bit more of a tension and even each other triggering each other on. On that and that's. Nobody deserves that.

Yeah, that's so well said. Rebecca and Tracy. I think communication and care. I care for you more than anything else. Life is not about one orgasm or orgasm tonight or today or whatever. It's about caring for you and loving for you and helping you feel as safe in a holistic way and working to do that. This is where I like people like the Pinners that help couples reintegrate, specifically in sexuality. How to bring pleasure, how to reduce emotional tension. Some of their resources that are just so good. But again it's just realizing that the experience can look so different. Trace and I have been married 35 years. Right. And we realized that over the years time frames and of course we all know afternoon is God's divine hour to have sex, not morning or evening. But anyway, that's a discussion. But anyway. But it's just more about caring for one another and articulating and sometimes with sexual brokenness, it's hard to communicate in sexuality because of brokenness. So the more you can just normalize and familiarize yourself with sexual communication and have good cues of respect and care. That's the heart is I want to bring care and honor to this person and joy and pleasure in the right way, in the right times. And so there's a maturity piece here that we're talking about.

Yeah. In our journey, Michelle and I heard about It a lot is like windows, and for maybe more often women, but we don't want to stereotype because I think men can have a lot of open windows. That if my wife has a lot of windows open, whether it's issues with the house or the kids or it is about my recovery and things I have or haven't done, like the more windows are open, it will be hard for her to be present and enjoy that experience. And so it goes back to what you gals have been sharing about emotional connection. If I realize that part of my intimacy with my wife is helping her address and close windows so that when we're seeking physical intimacy, she is fully present, that that is a part of that connection. It's a part of caring for her. It's a part of finding out what is on your heart and mind. And if it relates to my past struggle or things about my boundaries that she is or isn't seeing, my willingness to address those things communicates a lot to her. So I think it is a lot about communication, as you said, Rodney, about being able to be open with one another, of, here's why I am or am not feeling able to be present right now. Here are just the things that are unresolved. And navigating those as a couple, then again, can lead us to a place where the sexual physical connection becomes the outcome of working through some of those other things. And on the side of the maybe the husband feeling pressure. I've always tried to say to guys, and for me, I think it's the beauty of our vows that if tonight didn't go great, it's till death do us part, and we'll give it another go tomorrow. I mean, that doesn't mean that tomorrow you should try again. But you know what I'm saying that if we bring that expectation of, hey, every time doesn't have to go perfectly, but from it, we can learn and grow and connect. Maybe the next time will go better and from there we'll create that foundation. So it's. It's letting go maybe some of that expectation that this moment right now, it has to go well. It's like, hey, we're going to keep learning and growing. We can come back around to this.

Yeah, I think it's really important to normalize like this. That's really normal to be like, oh, we're just figuring out orgasm for couples. And it does, even if you haven't dealt with betrayal. So, you know, we do a lot of parent trainings, and people come up and say, well, we thought you know, we're going to do this the right way. And we did the, you know, promise ring, whatever, and then it wasn't that easy, and we felt discouraged and like, well, if I did it this way, it was supposed to just come naturally and easy and perfect. And there's just a lot of layers to our relationships, and that comes sometimes into that sexual relationship. So the anxiety one person feels about sexual, and then the other person thinking, oh, orgasm means I'm pleasing my wife, and if she doesn't orgasm, I. What. I mean, those are just normal, young. We, you know, we got married, and we're trying to figure it out kind of things that. I just want to normalize that for couples, because there aren't that many healthy places that we talk about sex. So we make all these assumptions about everybody else and what. How they're figuring it out. And sometimes we don't realize that that's a pretty normal thing that we. So going back to communication around that and just kind of relaxing in, like, let's just let this be a journey and enjoy the, you know, enjoy the relationship and keep working on it. Yeah.

And if you can communicate what feels good to you and your spouse, train them how to love you well and you. How to love them well. That communication is so good. And I like what you said, Nick, about closing windows. I used to tease with couples. Hypothetically, I would say. Tracy would say to me, hey, I feel more sexually attracted to you when you clean the house. Right. And so the kids would say, hey, dad, how come we all got vacuums for Christmas?

Be quiet.

Just start vacuuming, you know, and they would laugh. But there is something about holistically meeting the need of your partner that creates that connection for us. And so that's so true. I want to move on to another question that came in. Someone wrote when I was pregnant, this is, I think, some advice they got. I had a coworker tell me to take a picture of my body before it gets big for my husband. After having kids, my body image has been completely shattered, which is a whole other question. I would say it gets in the way of our physical intimacy. How can I overcome this? There's a lot to that question there. You guys take a crack at it.

That is unfortunate. That is an unfortunate comment. And it's not uncommon. I mean, that speaks to society and the view that a lot of us have grown up with and is that our value is in our looks. Our value is in what we can offer. And so that is unfortunate, and I'm really sorry that whoever got this comment had to experience that. That. That also leads me to think that it's likely that there were some belief systems that might have been there predated the relationship. For a lot of us that can relate to this, which I can include myself in that it became then a journey in regards to understanding where does this come from, where did it start for me, which is where then trauma work comes in, which is where that professional counseling on specific trauma.

Right.

It's not just betrayal trauma that is one piece. But for some of us we've needed to go and pursue more one on one trauma for things such as this. And so I would just say, girl, go get some trauma work. If you are in a group, lean into that resource because there's a lot of good stuff in there. And it is part of just tearing down those beliefs that are lies from that only come from, you know, the father of lies. And to begin embracing yourself for who you are, just the way you are, you are beautiful, you're worth it. And you have a lot to offer no matter what. And that body of yours gave birth to your babies. That's amazing.

Yeah, I think. Very well said, Rebecca. So many good things there. Sometimes. Sometimes is a misnomer, especially I think when we feel betrayed that I desire this deep connection with my spouse and that's not what he wants. And I believe I've walked this journey a long time with myself and I probably started there a little bit like, okay, I'm not what you want. To an understanding that we are both. We are all designed for the very deepest intimate connections. When we have been coping with something outside of that, it is not meeting and fulfilling that need. So therefore my spouse does not need a body part. That's just stimulus. It's stimulus. It's like that thing they talk about with the butterfly where they put the bright colored butterflies out and the other butterflies go out for them. I always hear that example and it's stimulus, right? It looks good, it's shiny, it's not meeting the real need. And I believe that was on my heart. Not just from my own story, but so many people's story. What we really need is that deep connection and it's not going to get any better. I'm 55. It's not about my body and it's not about Rodney's body. I could promise you. It is about a deeper connection. Right. That is where we go old together. Because bodies change over the years. And so I'm not saying that the wound isn't there. And the wound is deep. And it was for me as well. And it took a very long time to get from the head knowledge of this wasn't about me to the heart knowledge of that. But I believe that. And I believe that for the people that we work with, too, the betrayed partners. I'm always saying you're going to hear this first and you're not going to believe it, but eventually your heart gets to accept, too, that this wasn't about me and I'm beautiful just the way I am, whether my spouse tells me that or not.

Yeah. And I want to say to the guy in the situation that if that's the belief you're putting on your spouse, that I need you to look a certain way or I need you, I need your body to stay young or after you have babies, you need to get back to this ideal weight, you're really buying into a cultural mindset of sex that says good sex is a byproduct of beauty or attractiveness, when really that's not what God designed us for. God designed us to grow old with one another. And no body, literally no body, can sustain a pressure of saying, well, you have to look a certain way for me in order to have sex. It's like, no, God made you to find your spouse beautiful and sexual at every season and stage of life. And so if they've now had kids and their body looks a little different, well, guess what? God's inviting you to fall in love with them completely at the stage they're in and not who you wanted them to be from their past. And I've said it on the podcast before, we can objectify a perfected version of our spouse just as easy as we can objectify someone in pornography or in lust. And we have to make sure or be careful that where I'm really focusing my energies and my passion and my eyes is on the spouse that I have right now. Because believe me when I say God designed your brain to find your spouse beautiful right where they are, if you're making that your goal. And that's why we talk about, you know, avoiding pornography and training the eyes and being thoughtful about what we do with our minds. Because the more we engage with sexual thought and fantasy and lust outside of the marriage. Well, yeah, of course, now we're comparing our spouse to all these perfected, Hollywoodized, airbrushed images of sexuality that God didn't design us to have fulfilled from a spouse. God designed our spouse to be fulfilling as they are. So if you're the guy in this situation. And your spouse has now had kids or they're getting older. Welcome it, embrace it. Enjoy that God intended us to find enjoyment in the spouse of our youth for a lifetime, and that that isn't some kind of sentence or cruel joke or, you know, object lesson in perseverance, even though we don't like. No, there is an opportunity here to engage. And don't put the pressure on your spouse to change her body. Put the pressure on you to change the way your brain functions, because that will yield much better results than pressuring your spouse to look a certain way. Yeah, I'll get off my soapbox.

Yeah, there you go. And, you know, sometimes I get statements like this in my groups that I lead with men, and I kind of push back and said, unfortunately, I'll be. Use some sexual language here. You've fallen in love with a breast or a vagina or a buttocks. Instead of falling in love with a person, you should fall in love with a person. It's way better. It's what God intended. And this is what maturity looks like to fall in love with a person. Right. And the lie, Rebecca and Traci, that you spoke about, that's really what we're against. And we're saying, at Pure Desire, man, there's a better way to learn how to love holistically. And I think it even makes the physical that much more great because it doesn't just. It's not just dopamine to the brain. It engages the heart, and you begin to sense such a deeper love and connection that I think we were designed for. So.

Yeah, anyway, so let's give you an opportunity to really speak to what is often the men in this relationship because of this question, they say, what do I do if my wife. And we could say spouse, because it could go either direction. But the question that got asked was, what do I do if my wife is not willing to work on reintegrating sex? She has told me she doesn't even like it. What would you say to the guy that's in that relationship or situation and maybe really being triggered by that fear of will we ever have sex again? What do I do?

Just that in itself is. And if that's the case, that is giving you a lot of information, meaning they come at it with curiosity as much as you're able to. I understand it depends on where you are in the process. But if you are at a place where you know. You know, you're.

You're.

You've been doing recovery work, then you will know that. Okay. That is just a symptom of something deeper. What are we missing here? What extra maybe help work does she need? How can I create safety for her? What are the belief systems that are there for her and for me? How has the betrayal magnified or reconfirmed those belief systems? And so come at it with as much objectivity as you can and curiosity for better understanding because that'll lead to then better connection. So that's, that's what comes to mind.

And I will echo that. Curiosity and compassion are two of my favorite words to use myself and to other people. Like if we could learn compassionate curiosity, we will get a lot further in our relationship to self, God and others. And so do you need to ask her if there's something you can do to help her feel more safe? Sometimes we need to ask that person, you know, can I help you feel more safe in this relationship? That's not always the answer. Sometimes that person is still like, I don't want to have sex ever again. And maybe that goes to back to other things for them. Maybe there's pain or curiosity again. But also I think you can ask for what you want or what you desire. You have the opportunity to say, this is something I would like. Would you be willing to work on that? Would you be willing to go to a third party or get some help around this? You have choices. So if you're choosing to stay in the relationship, you're choosing to honor and respect that other person and their choices. And that is a piece you don't control the whole picture on that, you control part of it. And so your part would be to ask for what you need or if there's something that they need or if you can go and get some more.

Help and just remembering respect your partner where they're at. But remember now is not forever. And I think what you both said it very well, trying to build them where they get to a place where they want to and they get to, not that they have to out of obligation. And so it's just that sense of respect and care and working toward that. And I'm a big component. If stuck for a long period of time, seek some third party to communicate, to resolve conflict. I'm an advocate for asking for help instead of throwing in the towel. So yeah, if you get stuck, let's go get help on this and figure out how we can move forward to get a win win in the relationship. And I think that's what maturity looks like in marriage. Marriage isn't a place to stand up for your Rights, but a decision to serve one another. And so that sense of mutual submission is beautiful. Again, with honesty, safety, and trust as a foundation.

Yeah, yeah. And there's an opportunity here to dive deeper into your own healing. If you feel like you've asked why, you've understood her reasons, and nothing's changing that invitation, rather than just being, you know, bitter about it and creating separation and say, well, you know what? I'm going to keep working on me and creating the environment in your marriage where there is the greatest opportunity for them to move towards you because you are increasingly becoming a healthier and healthier version of yourself. And that doesn't mean that that will magically change her or fix it, but that opportunity of, you know what? I'm going to keep working on me. And at the end of a year or two years, if we still haven't had sex but I'm a way, way healthier version of myself, I think you'll look back and say, man, this has still been a really meaningful journey and I'm going to stay in it. So often at the beginning of recovery, I'll hear a guy say, I will do whatever it takes to fix this marriage. And then when whatever it takes means maybe months or years without sex, then they're like, well, I don't know about this. And Mike's like, well, timeout. I thought you said you would do whatever it takes. And maybe in this situation, whatever it takes is five or 10 years of no sex. Because what needs to change? Are you really willing to do whatever it takes? And that, what you said, Rodney, that might take some real commitment to laying down my life to show the love and to serve and to sacrifice for my spouse. But if at the end, it's helping me be healthier and purify my motives and address, why do I want this so badly? I've just seen God use it in powerful ways in someone's life that we're not doing it because of the outlet or the outcome of, well, if I just do this, then she'll do that. It's like, no, I'm doing this because at the end of the day, it's going to be good for me and my relationship with God and others.

Nick, we think about sickness and we think about tragedies and accidents where one of our spouses is physically, you know, hurt in some area. Our commitment, you know, it. It. It bears that. It says, okay, this is where we're at, and I'm going to carry that because I love my spouse. It's a sign of maturity. So this question has kind of a lot of factors to it or a lot of things to, I think, really begin to think through.

Yeah, well, that just means that you. What way to go for, For. For, you know, the commitment to try to make it work, which means you have work ahead of you, which means that there is still a lot of work to be done. And you both have to be willing to do that together to put in more work and even stay away from, or shy away from black and white thinking or approach of either we have sex or we divorce.

Right.

Like, it sounds a little like the pendulum went from one, there's options, there's choices, there's, there's. And it's work. It's all work. And so coming at it again from even like a strategic team effort. All right, well, this is not working. This is where I'm at. And what choices, what options do we have to achieve the goals?

And what do each of us want? Right. That's looking at what, like, let's honor and respect what each of us do want. There are couples that, you know, we meet with. There are couples that say we may just have to live as roommates. And that's a choice people can live. So I. And because I think more than a sexless marriage is just a emotion, like we talked about that lack of emotion in marriage and lack of. Of heart connection is what I would be really worried about. Because from that place again, we can talk about what is the reason why and we can respect each other's reasons, hopefully. But I think, yeah, looking at that, you have some choices. I have a choice to be in this and be roommates. Most people, that's not very enjoyable for them. But sometimes that is part of our choice because we don't control the other person.

You know, you said the word in the other answer that curiosity is key. And I think if we're the one in that place saying, I don't ever want to reengage sexually with my spouse, are we willing to be curious with ourselves to ask why am I closing the door on that permanently? And if we realize it's, well, they did this, I can never trust them again. Well, what if you could trust them again? What if there are more options in this? All or none thinking of, here's the reason it's never, ever are you willing to address where that's coming from? Because if you find that it's rooted in fear, it's rooted in avoidance, it's rooted in something unhealthy in you, I would say in our faith, as we all are pursuing Christlikeness, every one of us is invited to face the things where we have pain or fear or hurt. And that doesn't mean you've got to then say, okay, well, then tomorrow we'll reintegrate sexually. It may be a long road, but a long road is very different than saying never ever. And I would just say, is there self curiosity? If I'm just saying to my spouse, never ever am I willing to look at what's driving me there? Because maybe just like I said in the other answer, there's something I could be pursuing towards my health, even if I don't know when that will ever mean we reintegrate. But I'm at least going to pursue the things that are leading to some unhealth in my life and be willing to have that curiosity.

And I would just speak to this question about but I won't divorce. Sometimes a divorce is one of those religious responses, oh, God hates divorce. It's the one scripture that I think can be misinterpreted, but it's what we think. But I've also said to couples, I think God hates unhealthy marriages too. And the pendulum of, well, we're not going to divorce, but we're going to have an unhealthy marriage where we can't stand being together, but we're going to not get divorced. And I'm saying I don't think either of those are what God intended marriage to be. And I would say enjoying the journey and moving toward maturity for yourself and for your partner. If you can just take that mindset of how do I mature, how do I learn to love myself well and bring and love my partner well and bring this building something better for enjoyable as you move forward from whatever life has brought you to to this point. Because some of you have been married for five years and you found this out and some of you've been married for 50 years and you found this out. So those starting points of, okay, how do we begin to move forward here?

Yeah, so good. Rebecca, Traci, I think you've brought a wealth of information today and there are so many people that I think have these questions and have never been able to have conversations like this. And so I think today's content is going to help a lot of people. As we look to wrap up today, I'd love to just hear kind of your parting word of encouragement. What would you want to leave people with today as they think about reintegrating? Sex after betrayal?

Stop looking outward for definitions, validations or ideas on what your sex life should look like, turn inward, turn towards that emotional intimacy that you are working so hard on or that you will begin to work hard on so that you both can create what you want your sex life to look like.

I think it's really important to look at what we do have control over and remind ourselves of that. And Nick talked a lot about that self care and I just would agree that we do have control over taking care of ourselves, getting as healthy as possible, kind of looking into what our false messages are and what healing we need and then we contribute that toward the marriage. If we're in this coupleship, we contribute that. And then sometimes just asking, what, what do I need to let go of too? Sometimes there are some things that we need to let go of and that's hard too. Those are difficult questions. But I think when we know I do, you know, I am not a victim of everything. I do have control over many things in my life and one of them is getting healthy. I do not have to have a healthy partner. I do not have a partner at all to work on my own personal health and to get healthy. And out of that, then hopefully I make better decisions or I seek more help or whatever to take that next step.

You know, one of my life hacks has been when in doubt, be patient and generous. When I'm not sure about a decision, I've thought, what's the patient thing to do? What's the generous thing? Because I have never regretted being too patient or being too generous. But I have definitely regretted times in my life I've been in too much of a hurry or been too stingy or held back something. And so I would just say to both spouses, in a situation like this, how could you bring that spirit to the table to say, I'm going to be patient and generous? And I think if we're pursuing that, then we'll do the work, we'll take the time needed, we'll have the conversations needed to move back towards one another in a way that really can build a new life and a new kind of physical connection with one another. So, Rebecca, Traci, thank you so much for having this conversation. We loved having you on and just really appreciate the wisdom that you brought to our audience today.

Thank you. It was a pleasure and an honor.

Thank you.

And as always, if you are a fan of this content, if today's episode meant something to you, we would love it if you would subscribe, write us a review, share it with somebody else give us a Like all of these are ways that other people might hear about some of this life giving information and go on their own journey. And if you'd like more information about Pure Desire groups engaging with the Pure Desire Counseling team with excellent people like Rebecca and Tracy, you can Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.

SA.