400 - Celebrating 400 Episodes w/ Listener Q&A

Foreigner. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal, trauma, and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is Dun, Dun, dun. Episode 400. Yes, you heard that right. Episode 400. 400. And here joining me as co host for this very special episode is a very special person, Mrs. Ashley Jamison. Ashley, welcome back to the podcast.

Yeah, I am so excited that this episode landed when I was in town and I get to be the one to be here to do this with you. It's very fun to look back and celebrate and even just pulling up some of the data we collected for this episode, I got a little emotional. Just really thankful for all that we've been able to do on this podcast.

Yes. Well, through the podcast, you're probably one of the most frequent guests, so it seems fitting to have you come on as a co host. Do you know how many episodes you were on or would you guess how many? A lot. That is not a guess. That is a word.

I don't. So many.

So many. You're still not giving me a number.

From the beginning. From the conception. Inception. Conception.

Wait, I think Inception is probably better.

That's the thought, right?

I guess it's a brain baby of a few of us.

Yes, from the inception conception. I've been here, so I do remember that first. Gosh, I think it was episode either two or five, you know, in the back room. East Hill. Kind of sounds like you're talking over there. Yeah. Into Tin can, you know, early. Early. So.

Yeah. Well, and you guys have done some like month long women's Takeover series.

Yeah.

You've been on Q and A's. You've been. I bet you've been on. I would put you in like the 30 to 35 number. So. Almost. Almost getting up there to 10%.

That's. That's a good number. That sounds biblical.

Yeah, well, okay. I think, you know, 10%, we tithe. It's our Ashley tithe. We got to get her on one of every 10 I need my.

I need my 10% podcast episodes.

Well, and you've been on more frequently lately as a co host and enjoying getting to have that variety. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking 400 episodes represents like almost. We're coming up on eight years, so I don't know if we're doing another celebration at. I think 416 would be eight years. In 16 weeks, we could celebrate all over again or just mark, like, we're Continuing to make episodes and make content because it means a lot to listeners and it means a lot to us to get to do it. And we're glad to be celebrating that today.

Yeah, and I'm excited that we're doing some questions and answers today, because even outside of the podcast, just all the events we've done, where we've done Q and A breakout sessions for the men and women, it just seems like there's never enough time to answer everybody's questions. And that's what I love about not only the podcast, but these episodes where we can just pause to answer some questions that we now have this tool through the podcast where we can get people information a lot quicker. You know, I think we gathered information for Betrayal and Beyond for five years before we were able to update it. And with a podcast, we can just say, let's. Let's talk about that next month. And it's been a really good tool.

And we do get your questions, listeners. We read all of them. We may not answer every one of them in a Q and A, but I can tell you that it's your emails that shape our content that help us know what listeners want to hear more about. So keep them coming. And if you're one of the listeners that gets your question answered today, you know, you'll know for sure that we're listening. But I see every one of those, several of us on staff do, and it helps us really evaluate what to cover. And so I think before we get into some listeners questions, you had a few questions for me to cover as a podcast host?

I sure did. A little reflection on the history of almost eight years, 400 episodes. And so my first question for you is, what was your favorite opening song that you sang that still makes you laugh today?

It's impressive that you think I would remember most of those. And usually it was, um, laughing at myself or trying to endure Trevor, you know, another host laughing at me. I think what came to mind when you asked the question, though, is there were a couple of times, in fact, I was thinking about this one that I would. I would give a listener a free book that can give me a podcast name and number. There were a couple of times where when I sang the song, I immediately said something like, ooh, that was really pitchy. I apologize. Because you hear a song in your head and you don't realize that you've never actually sang it out loud until you're sitting in front of a microphone on the podcast, and it's like, I don't think I Know that song as well as I think I do. So I know there was, like, an Adele. I think I sang the Adele from the Other side, and I'm like, that did not sound right at all. Staying Alive seems pretty straightforward until you try to sing it. Especially that, like, ooh, ooh, ooh part. Yeah. Evidently, I was not as gifted at some of those pop music intros as I thought. The ones I tended to nail were Sunday school songs. So that, I think is really my strong suit is songs from my childhood and going to Sunday school. But, yeah, those are probably the ones that. That make me laugh is more like, wow, that came out really a lot different than I expected. So, yeah, if a listener can tell me a podcast name and number when I did that, we'll send them a free book.

There you go. Okay. I like that a little look back on some history of fun. Okay, what episode or guests surprised you the most?

You think of that in one regard, we don't get many surprises because we don't have guests on the podcast unless we're pretty sure what they're gonna say. Like, it's because we know them, we trust their content, we trust their approach. So there haven't been a whole lot of surprises, I would say. And people have heard us reference this one before. But getting to have our founder, Ted Robertson, was always a unique treat. I think part of what surprised me is you think, well, I know Ted. I've read his book. I've gone through the workbooks he wrote. I kind of know what he's going to say, but he just is a continual learner. And every time we had him on, he would have something new. He had read, processed. He would ask questions. He was one of the few guests that would ask questions. Back of us listeners might recall there was an episode where he had Trevor and I doing this, like, spiritual exercise during the podcast. We're like, okay. And we didn't expect that. So he was always fun to have on. And then also being the age he was, Ted did not understand our intros because we used to record the intros with the guest on, and most guests understood, like, okay, this is their time, and then when they get to me, I'll start answering questions. But Ted, you know, is just a really bold guy. And in the middle of the intro, he started commenting back. And I know one in particular. I had done some of the. From Napoleon Dynamite. I had done something like, vote for Pedro. And immediately Ted's like, pedro? Who's Pedro? And it was like, I couldn't say it on air, it's like. It's a joke. Ted, let us get through this. We'll get to you. But he just immediately starts jumping in. We're like, okay, that was a surprise. Usually you're supposed to just sit quietly and listen. But we always had fun having him on. And, you know, I think to the episode we did with the author of the Shack. Now I'm spacing on his name.

Paul.

Paul Young. Yes. Two things surprised me. One was just how much he had processed his own story of pain and betrayal in his marriage. His betrayal and his willingness, I think, to talk so openly about that is a lot of really what people have found if they're Paul Young fans. And I get that he's not everybody's cup of tea. And some of our listeners have theological issues with him, which I appreciate. But, you know, I'd remind listeners we don't have people on because we agree 100% with everything they believe. But his story of hurting his wife and just the work he has done to reforge a friendship there, I thought was surprising. And what listeners may not know is how much of his content we also cut out because he uses some surprising language and metaphors that we're like, okay, that might be a Paul Young thing, but that's probably not a pure desire podcast, way to put it. So we'll. We'll skip some of that content. We had to do more work editing that episode than most. So those are two surprises that come to mind.

Those are good ones. Those are good. Okay, last question for you. What do you love about hosting this podcast?

Two things come to mind. Just, you know, the conversations we get to have that I think all of us had times in our life we wish we would have heard. You know, people weren't talking about these things. Our churches weren't talking about it. We didn't know how to bring it up with our spouses. And so to have a podcast now where we can be doing that for other people, we can be that place that they get to listen to and go, man, that's what I needed to hear. And the feedback we get, I mean, I think that's what it's about. And really, from the beginning, the point was to have conversations that people weren't having anywhere else. So for people to come to this podcast and feel like I'm getting to be a part of a community that gets me, that knows my story, and even if they don't know me personally yet or know the particulars of my story, I feel like we can Relate. And there really is a commonality in so much of what we walk through in recovery over sexual addiction, pornography use, the betrayal that creates it just, it's a category that not many people in our culture know where to turn to. And so I'm glad we get to be that. The second thing that comes to mind is just the guess. I mean, I would never have met people like Paul Young and Kurt Thompson and Dr. Sherry Keffer and many, many others that as we're sitting there interviewing them, you know, Josh McDowell comes to mind, Sean McDowell, David Kinnaman. Like, in what other world would I have gotten to meet all of these people and not only meet them, but like have an hour long conversation about some amazing stuff. And so all of our guests and the testimonies and the stories that I've gotten to be a part of is really, I think, what keeps me going.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I, I, you know, hosting the Women's the Unfiltered with Heather, having young women, old women just say, I feel like you're our sisters and you're speaking for us. And, and I think that's what I love most about hosting all of these podcasts is that people feel so seen, even if they're at home in their brokenness, whether it's they've just been devastated by betrayal or found out or in the rock bottom of their own addiction, that they, they feel heard and seen is probably my favorite part.

Yeah. How about you? Do you have a favorite episode, a most memorable episode, either that you were on or maybe one that you remember hearing and that stood out to you?

Well, you know, I am the like elbow bumper in church when I think some, I listen to something and I think, oh, this would be really good for my husband to hear. So when I think about the most memorable episode recently, for my own reasons, I liked the episode on edging a lot. I love episodes where we get to, you know, when people come in and they're hemorrhaging out and just, I had an affair or I'm looking at porn or I just got arrested. It's like, those are so obvious, you know, things that they need to take care of. But being able to go into those, like, next layers with people and just continue to cultivate health and dig out things that are unhealthy. I love those episodes. So I really like that one recently. But my most memorable was an episode I was on Crash Site Analysis Analysis, you and Trevor were hosting. And I was so stressed out. Like, that one had me so stressed out because in My head. Even though, you know, I've worked at Pure Desire for nine years now and been on plenty of episodes, I had it in my head that I was going to have to walk some. Somebody threw an example of one of my recent crash sites or, like, one of my past, you know, crashes, and I was all triggered. You know, it's like your brain remembers. And so I was in, you know, just eating tons of chocolate, and I remember getting on the. The episode, and you guys are really just, like, walking through the tool. You want people to understand the tool. Not so much, like, go through an actual example. I was like, it just really. I don't know, it just, like, took over the whole weekend, and it made me just a. Like, it made me experience that our brain can easily go back into that same place of remembering things. Even though you have the tools, you've done the work. And I actually think those are good moments for me because it reminds me of what people are experiencing when they come to us. And so I. I appreciate those moments because I call it my raw material. Then the next week, I'm like, oh, yeah, I know exactly what that feels like, because I just had that happen last week on the podcast. So that was my most memorable.

I'm sure that is a truth for listeners that in this world that we're walking in, content can be triggering, depending what we're in the middle of. And maybe there's an episode that, at the time, it wasn't the right timing for them, but another year later, they come back to it or they see that topic. And I. I think that's what's great about 400 episodes. And if you are a newer listener out there, thank you for tuning in, for being a part of these conversations. And what's great is that you don't have to go back through and listen to all 400 episodes. I know there are people that have and, you know, raise your hand, give yourself a pat on the back, and a huge shout out to you for listening to 400 episodes. But if you're newer to the podcast, you know, you can go to that little magnifying glass icon on our website. You can type in a topic, and we have probably covered it. We've probably had a guest about it. We probably have multiple episodes on some of the things that if there's a tool you want to understand better, if there's a circumstance you're walking through, and if you can't find one, that's why you should send us an email and let us know about a question or a topic that you'd like to know more about. And sometimes we feel like we're not the experts, but we can find someone who is and interview them and leads to continuing great, great content. And, you know, we really do love the feedback that we get from people. And I know we wanted to share a couple of those. One that I came across. Someone reached out to us and said, I have been one of those silent listeners of the Pure Desire podcast for almost a year. I think we referred to silent listeners as people that like, they listen to it every week, but they've never like, liked it, subscribed, posted, reached out. And so this person reached out and they said, I want to thank you for being so open and vulnerable. But in all honesty, those words do not even come close to how thankful I am. The podcast has brought sanity, wisdom and hope in the midst of some pretty dark days, weeks and months, you have become a daily part of my conversations with my friends who are part of Pure Desire groups. I started with episode one and have worked my way up to almost episode 200, but I have listened to so many other episodes. There are times when I have listened to some episodes two to four times. I am serious. The podcast is just that, life giving and hope giving. I wish I could convey just how powerful the content of the podcast is. So that was pretty cool.

So good, you know, and the other thing I like is our friends and our family, they're not always in our same. I mean, we can say season of life. I explained it to one of my friends the other day of, you know, God works on us and peels these onion layers. You know, we may get sobriety from our addiction and then we're working on anger, then we're working on being more in touch with our emotions, whatever our layer is, or maybe it's overeating or, you know, just a different layer. And sometimes we go to our friends and family and they're on the layer of like, trying to financially stabilize themselves so they're not really interested in your layer as much because that's not where they're at. And, and so when people come to our podcast, I feel like we're in this layer with you. We, we totally get it. And, and it is a breath of fresh air. So I have a couple of reviews that were sent in. A friend of mine recommended this podcast and I can say with total confidence that it's one of the biggest reasons I'm so hopeful in my journey of healing today. I've been needing something so grounded in scripture but also aware that there's a physical side to my problem. And pure desire was the answer to that prayer. And then a second one says, every marriage needs this information. I wish I had discovered this podcast sooner. It could have saved our marriage from so much damage and pain. Better late than never. And grateful to have hope for recovery, healing, and restoration of our marriage. I just think those are so good.

Yeah. We had one other person who wrote and said, first off, I want to thank you for your podcast and ministry. About a year ago, my husband confessed to using porn during one of our marital counseling sessions. And we have both been changed by the free grace and mercy of God at work in our hearts. Not too long after he found your ministry and made it a regular part of his recovery, listening to and sharing the podcast with me, his confession to me broadened out to a group of trusted friends, our family, and especially our grown daughters, and freed them to confess some of their own sin, pain, and struggles. So thank you for being so vulnerable about your struggles and for walking alongside so many who are longing for real, lasting freedom. The Lord has used you and will continue to use you in powerful ways in our lives. You are part of our journey to healing and freedom. And I love that because I think it does kind of capture what we're after as we get to be a part of people's journey. And we hope that we will be because we can provide advice, direction, counsel, support, ideas, something to keep you going and motivated when maybe you're losing sight of why you're doing this in the first place. And that feeling of being a part of a virtual community, even though we all still need. In both these cases that I read, they were also in group. They had a community in person. But there's something about those outside voices. You know, I think of it like Hebrews chapter 12 of Being Surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses that can say, we've been there. We know where you're at. You're not alone. Keep going, keep running. Christ is with you. We're with you. That. That's why we do this. And I love the way, too, that their story, then it multiplied from being something very private to impacting their friends, their family, their community. Like, that's what we hope to see in everyone's life, is that it becomes a healing story that you're able to tell others.

Yeah. You want everybody else to experience it, too.

Well, we are so grateful for you, our listeners, and we're going to jump in now to some frequently asked questions. But again, we would love to hear from you. We love getting your questions, your ideas, and if God has used the podcast in your story or in your life in some way, that means a lot to us to get to hear from you as well. So question number one, Ashley, we got from a listener, and this is from a longer explanation of some things they were walking through. But they said, what should I do if my husband lies while in recovery and hides a relapse? He is not honest with men in his group or his leader. Does this mean that he's actually surrendered to the recovery process? Have you seen or heard of this happening as part of the recovery process? I think what this listener is describing is very, very challenging, but unfortunately not uncommon. Because what I have found happens is as we start to make progress in recovery, there is a part of us that wants to be better, that wants to say, I'm doing so well and maybe our spouse is seeing growth or our group or people around us and we've got momentum and energy. And then a relapse happens. And is so often the case. We're not like planning out a relapse for a month and going to do something nefarious. It is often poor boundaries getting back into. Maybe an old account and a situation that we weren't well prepared for comes up or it's a very slow slide into. We broke one boundary in one small way and then it became a little more. And when we relapse, I think it's so common that we feel this shame all over again. The regret of, well, people thought I were doing better and I don't want to undo all that work. And so that mindset which was familiar in addiction, of I'm just going to hide, can set back in even in recovery. And so I'm not in any way saying that's acceptable or okay, but just to say there are structures in place that makes that unfortunately, fairly common. But some of the strategies that I think can really help in that regard would be to make sure that you have a recovery action plan, a free tool on our website that states in advance, if I relapse, here are the steps that I'm committed to taking. And it's not meant to be punitive, but to be restorative, to understand what am I going to need for health, what might my spouse need to move towards health, and what does it look like to have this be a constructive part of my recovery and not the feeling that it's back to square one. Because I think that's another thing that maybe keeps people from getting honest or disclosing a relapse, they feel like, I don't want to start over. And we just have tried to say all the time, a relapse doesn't have to be part of your process, but if it does happen, it doesn't mean you're back at square one. Let's look at the ways you can learn from this. You can implement, you know, more boundaries or guardrails that you need. You can engage with your community more. I have heard from so many men and women that relapses along the way was how they learned. And I don't wish that on anyone. I don't want any marriage to have to walk through that because it's incredibly painful, but it can be an instrumental part of your growth. And so I think making sure that recovery action plan is in place. But obviously then someone could ignore it. You know, they could choose not to engage with that. A second thing that I find is helpful is if a couple already has a rhythm in place where they are choosing to be honest in small ways, then it makes that ability to be honest when something bigger comes up a much, much easier step. And I'm talking about like couples that do a weekly connection night to share their faster scale or, or as we've talked about on the podcast a lot, to do something like the Thanos acronym. That can be a five minute check in where I'm sharing a feeling, an affirmation, a need, taking ownership of something and then giving an update on my sobriety. That's the S. Or as I just heard Jenna Reimersma say in an event the other day, she adds a G and makes it fangos, which just makes it more fun to say Thanos. She adds gratitude. So it's something I'm grateful for. But if you were doing that even a couple of times a week or a few times a week, pausing and just sharing like, how are you doing really? Like on a deeper level and praying together. Then that ability to be honest at more appropriate times. I think again, someone could choose to lie and hide as long as they wanted, but it creates the opportunity where vulnerability, disclosure in small ways just becomes part of your rhythm. Versus a spouse kind of holding her breath and waiting like, is the other shoe gonna drop? And it's been months and they haven't really talked about anything. They hope it's good. And now, you know, the addict can get themselves in a place where they feel like there's so much water under the, under the bridge. There's so much now that I haven't Shared. I just don't want to go back and start. So keeping short accounts, keeping in regular contact. And I think that's both for someone in a group and with their spouse. And then a third idea that we've seen people integrate successfully when it's at a place that there is not trust in the relationship, this has to be addressed, and it has to be taken seriously. And we will often have couples that will integrate a system of maybe it's bi, monthly, or biannual. Every six months, they will do a polygraph. And I know people have varying opinions about polygraphs, but at Pure Desire, we have seen them be very successfully integrated into recovery when a spouse is intent to rebuild trust, because what they've learned is, I can say whatever I want to my spouse, but she doesn't trust me because I've lied too much. And there have been times I've said I'm fine when I'm not. And so I get that. If she says, how are you doing? And I say, I'm doing good, she doesn't believe me. Well, the polygraph can become part of backing up your word. And you can have it be very specific around the commitments you've made, that in the polygraph, the questions are asked, have you been free of all forms of relapse in the last six months? Have you followed these guardrails? Have you, as you answer them, when that baseline of the polygraph says they are being truthful, it really can elevate the spouse knowing, okay, they're going to tell the truth. And then what it does for the one in recovery or the addict is they know, like, every six months that deadline is coming, and I can either wait and get exposed then, or I can keep being honest all along the way. And the goal of all of that, I would just say the goal is not to get someone honest about relapses. It's actually to get enough honesty into the relationship that relapses aren't happening anymore. Because that's the point of encouragement I would want to give to the addiction. We feel like getting honest is about causing pain when the truth is, getting honest is really where we find freedom. Because when we're walking in honesty and we're in that place, you know, pillar one, lesson one is a commitment to radical honesty. That's not just so that we have to, you know, feel like we're always in trouble being honest. It's because when we're living in a place of radical honesty, freedom is so much easier, if I could put it that way. So this is a very challenging situation. I feel for the person who's in it because that question of trust is maybe the major question in a marriage. But I think those are three things that can really help create a rhythm of honesty in the marriage.

Yeah. And I think even what you were saying about having regular check ins for communication and what you were explaining about the polygraph, it's helping to build that muscle. That muscle that is a truth teller muscle. And you know, some people have said, well, why put all these guardrails in? Because you know, then when you take them away or there's always ways to access, to go around it. But I also see it with anything that we do in life, sometimes we do things to help us, just to help us out while we're renewing that, that pathway or while we're building the muscle of truth. And, and those things can just help strengthen that and make it a little bit easier so that you're mindset starts to change. And so, you know, just like if somebody were to detox off something, yeah, it's forced and it may not feel comfortable, but then your brain and your body can start to recalibrate. And with the polygraph and with doing regular check ins for the ones struggling, they may go to do something and then think, well, I don't want to have to confess this on the next. So that the motive may not be exactly right to start with. But, but they're starting to build that muscle of resisting the instant gratification, building some truth telling skills. And then eventually they see that it's actually a much better way to live with without all that sideways energy and covering up lies and stress that comes along with that. And so I'm all about if there's tools or guardrails or boundaries. If I have chocolate in the house, I am eating all of it. Donuts, chocolate, it's all. So I don't see it as a weakness that I'm, that I buy things in doses that I want to eat it. You know, it's like I could just be like, well, just don't eat it. You know, be stronger. But I think it's smart to know what we should put in place to help us stay on course when we, when we have a very obvious weakness or struggle.

Yeah. And I think on that the side too, for the betrayed spouse, it is helpful to ask, am I expecting an appropriate level of honesty? Because as we've seen in some people's story, they think honesty means I need to know absolutely everything right down to like what Are the thoughts on your mind running throughout the day? Which is really, as we have found, a no win situation for both couples. Yes. You need to know factual things. You need to define. And that's the value again of a recovery action plan. Step one is define a relapse.

Yes.

And get specific about, like, what lines. When this line is crossed, that's a relapse. That's what we're going to categorize as relapse. And at that point it should be shared. But up into that point, there is a little bit of a navigating as couples. As so many found, sometimes too much detail is just too much and is not helpful in the process. And so if the tension a couple might be feeling is between those two of like. Well, yeah, I mean, he's actually telling me when he relapses, but he's not telling me all those little details. And maybe he's trying to protect you, but you feel like it's secrecy. I think that's a great area to get advice from your groups, to get advice from a clinician or therapist that can help you determine when there is honesty. To what degree of detail do we need to go? Because I think it's possible for someone in a helpful way to be completely honest without sharing every detail. That only amplifies maybe the pain or the hurt. So proceed with a lot of wisdom and caution there if there is honesty happening, but maybe some of the details you still want. And that's again, a great place to go to the unfiltered podcast, because I know you guys have covered that. Or to talk to a group leader and say, I feel like I need to know this, but he says that's not going to help me. What do you think? And get some outside perspectives. And if at the end of the day you think knowing it is absolutely crucial to moving forward, then you have every right to know that. I would just encourage you to really consider some of the finer details that like my wife shared when I was, you know, we hadn't done pure desire and I would be doing my best to confess something and I would share, you know, like a movie that I saw in the name of the actress and. And she would remember for years. And I couldn't even remember that I'd seen the movie because it wasn't the way my mind worked. But for her it was like comparing to that and hurt by that. And if she heard of that actress in anything else, it was triggers and. And we would both look back and go, there was detail there that Was not helpful.

Not helpful.

I needed to let her know that there was an inappropriate movie I'd watched. But the. All the detail work actually just became part of more trauma than was needed. So just. Just a couple of thoughts there as you're navigating honesty.

Well, and it's so layered. I mean, this guy could be going to group and intentionally not sharing anything. Like, I'm checking the box, going to group. I'm lying about everything, doing the work. Or it could be like what you were saying just. Or John was that way too, of not really realizing there's another layer of like, depth we could be going here and just all that to say this is why group and counseling is so important, because we can answer the question in general, but. But all the nuances of what's going on in the marriage needs. You know, it needs unpacking.

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Next question that was submitted by a listener is, why does my spouse's inappropriate sexual behavior feel so personal, even though it's not totally get it. And this isn't the case for everybody. One thing that helped me, it feels personal because as man and woman, we are supposed to be married. We are supposed to only have this one thing that's special between only us. God created sex to be between man and woman in a marriage. And it's the only thing we share with each other, nobody else. It's special. And so then when it's shared with anybody else or anything else, then the specialness, the covenant that's supposed to be just for you and your spouse has now been broken and shared. And it feels like you. You weren't good enough. There was something else out there that was better or more appealing. And that can be the danger of hearing again, too much information early on. Because then we wonder why I wasn't good enough. Or maybe it's because I just had kids or I've lost my shape or whatever. And so we even be careful. We. We're even careful in saying. When we say the addiction's not about you, but that can be hurtful to a betrayed spouse because it definitely feels about them. We like to say the. You did not cause them to act out. That's what we mean by that is you have no cause in this, whether.

What they do, because you're not good enough, beautiful enough, sexy enough.

And I know for most of us, for the majority of people that we work with at Pure Desire and our own stories here, the problem happened even before marriage. And so sometimes I have to remind myself of that, that this was A problem even before I came into the picture. And I know that's not everybody's story, but we are telling you at Pure Desire, we work with thousands of people, and so often the majority. It's a problem since teenage years. It's. It's not that you all of a sudden had a baby or all of a sudden something happened, dyed your hair the wrong color, and. And then that triggered it. And so this is also why we very delicately teach the betrayed spouse about addiction, so that they can understand where some of this starts and how it grows into this bigger issue that. That has brought them to this place. And we feel like understanding helps after that, after you understand where it came from and you've processed things, it's really a mental battle. Like, we have the tools to tear down thoughts that aren't good for us and aren't healthy for us, but. But it's exhausting. I remember picturing that I had this lasso, and I was, like, taking my thoughts captive and like, nope, nope, nope. And I could do it, but I kept having to do it all the time because the thoughts were so intrusive. But staying the course, staying with your group, reminding yourself of the truth, Eventually I could set my lasso down for a few hours, and then I might have to pick it back up, and then it was like, oh, I don't even have the lasso anymore, you know? So I just. It's exhausting. But you really do have to be careful about where you let your thoughts go at that point.

I agree with what you said 100%, especially the beginning, about. In a regard, it is personal. It feels personal because it is and because God made it that way. And I think it underscores why this is a sacred act, why it's something that God shows us in the Garden of Eden as being a part of his created order of a man and woman coming together. And they were, you know, the end of Genesis 2, they were naked and felt no shame. Like, there's something about our divine creation that wants that exclusive connection with another human being, and we find out they've done something outside of that. I think there is this personal, like, what's wrong with me? Or what. What happened here? Something that was meant to be special isn't. And. And we see the opposite happening in our culture that wants to completely devalue it. It's just bodies. It's just pleasure. Love is love. Do whatever you want. And we kind of cheapen it to the point that it loses meaning. And that's why we See all the chaos in the world that we're seeing because we have detached the act from the significance that God designed it to have. And even then, when it happens in marriage, I think it's just a reminder of how God designed this to be at that very intimate level. And there's. There's really nothing more personal to us than our sexuality, our bodies, our own, you know, neurochemistry. It is deeply personal. So all of that is getting interfered with and has perhaps been wounded in the journey. And so I guess to just see that reality of it feels really personal, because in a way, even if they didn't do it because of me or they didn't mean to hurt me, it still is hurtful, and it still feels like it impacts me or it's because of me. And that was a big part of what I had to come to grips with, you know, in my marriage. Even in the 10 years prior to us finding help through pure desire. When I would confess that I had struggled with pornography, you know, my wife would say, well, I feel like you're. You're having an affair. I feel like you're committing adultery. And I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, there's no real people. I would never do that. It's just lust. It's just, you know, I would use the word just. It's just pornography. And I wasn't meaning to minimize what I did. I was trying to make my wife feel better. But what I was completely ignoring is she was stating her truth. Yeah, she was saying something that was very real to her, that that's how personal it felt. And as hard as it would have been if I would have been willing to accept that at the beginning to go, you feel like this is an affair, I better go get help. Because I don't ever want, you know, which one of us gets married thinking I want to do something that makes my spouse feel like I'm cheating on them. You know, if my wife came and said, when you go out and eat breakfast at McDonald's instead of having breakfast with me, I feel like you're having an affair, I'd be like, I'll quit going to McDonald's. No big deal. Right? Like, I don't want my wife to feel that way. But in this area, I was so stuck in the. Probably the shame of it and the rationalization that it was like, well, you don't get it. And a big part of our healing was that turn to go, no, I don't get it. Because if that's how it's making you feel that tells me how important it is that we get this right. At the same time, something I would bring up. I do think there's an opportunity for us when it feels deeply personal to us is to explore where have I maybe put on all of my hopes into what my spouse is going to make me feel in ways that God has really designed us to take to him. So I don't. I want to be careful how I say it because I think it could come out like, well, you're doing something wrong. I don't mean it that way. I just think there is some human nature where I start to define myself through you, especially when we're married. And so we might realize I think I'm beautiful because my spouse tells me I'm beautiful. But if they're having, you know, going off looking at pornography and they're lying, then maybe I'm not beautiful.

Yeah.

Because I have so attached my own sense of value, worth or identity to their opinion of me. That may be part of what's causing it to feel so personal. And I say it's an opportunity because I believe God's design would be that as his sons or daughters, we would find our beauty, our worth, our value completely from him and not. And yes, a spouse can affirm that and they have a role to play. But if they do the sinful thing that they're going to do, we could be in a healthy place to go. Well, you need to work on that. But I know who I am. I know who God. I know I am beautiful. I know I am worth it. I know I am valuable. And my value isn't tied up in what you're doing. So that may be a question to just ask is have I overly depended on my spouse's behaviors to define my own value, worth or identity? And if we find that we can really grow so much in a way that actually increases the likelihood of having a healthier relationship with our spouse.

Yeah, it's good you, you spoke on that. And I know we, we do try to be careful of all the things. But unfortunately, I had to go through that betrayal with my husband. But out of it, the, the post traumatic growth was just this solid confidence in my own identity because of exactly what you were saying of having to kind of break down. In my case, I did idolize my marriage. And that was where I found my identity and my value through John. And so it broke all of that down and just kind of left me in shambles. And I'm like, okay, God, I Just. I guess it's just me and you. But through that I found such a strength in. In renewing my mind that my worth and my value and my beauty come from God. And he created me exactly the way I look and exactly the way he wanted me to be. And my. I'm his masterpiece. And those are the things I had to speak over myself as I was getting re. Triggered down the road. But that confidence that I gained through that experience, like, way, like far out. Seated. Out. Seated. Out. No.

Out.

You know what word I'm trying to find?

Exceeded or superseded.

Far exceeded. That's. Yes, far exceeded. Oh my gosh. Okay. Two hours of sleep. Far exceeded. The physical looks, you know, that I. That I was wrestling with and insecurities. It just brought me confidence in all things. You know, having to start in this fracture in our marriage brought me to God, which then reminded me, this is who created me and he has purpose for me. And. And it helped me in all areas. My relationships work, everything. So it was a. It was a good outcome of that. And then the one other thing I would say is that when people are struggling with acting out and things have escalated, there's that physical dependency on it. And so it can be especially hard spouse. If maybe there's their husband or wife is not having sex with them, but then they're having an affair or they're looking at porn. And so that can be really confusing. And I would just encourage you to still understand the process of addiction and know that that can all be undone and that there needs to be a reset, like, completely. So that still doesn't mean that he's not attracted to you if, you know, he's not sleeping with you, but having sex elsewhere. That just. There's a lot of undoing that needs to be done there.

Yeah. And we've covered many of that on many podcasts. I would encourage you if you feel like, well, well, they know how I feel. But you've never really written it out. I would say that's an important part of, like the process here at Pure Desire is an emotional impact letter. And a couple of times I can think of in our marriage that were instrumental is when my wife put in writing, like, this is how this makes me feel, because it allowed me to read and process it on my own. It was a little less emotionally driven and like in the middle of a heated argument. And. And it really, I think, brought home like, wow, this is what's going on for my wife when this happens. It helped me take my. Honestly, my journey more Seriously. And see the need for it. Because I. As I said earlier, you don't. I didn't want to make her feel that way. No one wants to make another person feel that way. But maybe you realize, like, well, I feel like I've told them a hundred times, but you haven't ever written it down and kind of processed how it makes you feel. I think that could be a worthwhile step to take and ask your spouse to consider this is my reality when you share this. So, Ashley, on this next question, I would like to have you answer first, because as I've had many zoom meetings with you, right behind you, you have a feelings wheel pillow. And so I know you like to talk about how we share our feelings. This person said. And so it must be a guy that has been in a compassionate warrior group, because a new part of that study is something called the Superhero Odyssey. And they discovered while doing their Superhero Odyssey that one of their superpowers is hiding their emotions. I'd love to know what they named their character. You know, the Emotion Hider.

Please tell us if that was your.

Question, how do we name that superpower? But they said, now that I'm aware I haven't really thought of appropriate ways to show anger, disappointment, anxiety, speeding up, et cetera. So what would you say to someone about learning appropriate ways to share their emotions?

This is a. This is such a good question. Because when I first started going through my healing recovery process, I started in a grief class, and she had us highlight. She had a circle, all the little faces, like the ones you would see in a doctor's office, with all the expressions that we were feeling. And I didn't circle anger. And she was like, everything I've heard you say, I feel like you might have some anger, but you didn't circle that. And I was like, no, I'm not angry. Because we may be right. We have. We may have been raised in a home where anger was not allowed straight in your face. Get your act together. You know, whatever you know, parents may have said, we may have been raised in a church where anger was talked about as being very sinful. Those are both things that we've heard, and those are things that I experience, and they're also things that my husband experienced. So we both had a lot of anger tucked away. And during this process, we realized we are angry people. I cried when I scored off the charts on their anger test. It was in behind the Mask or Teenage Material. And I just cried because I'm like, now I have something else. I Have to deal with, like, what else? And so I would say, I'm so.

Angry about being angry.

And mine would be stuffed. So stuffed, stuffed stuff. And then come out sideways. I would throw a dish. I would yell at my kids. I'd yank their arm too hard. I'd freak out on John, and then I would stuff, stuff, stuff, stuff. Because I did not know how to appropriately, appropriately share anger or even think that it was okay to be angry. And so I would say, start small with safe people. You know, get into a group. If this is a guy or he. So he's in. He's in his super power superhero odyssey. Continue to share the anger that you're struggling with with your group. Sometimes we start there and we practice it, and then we're able to bring it outside of the group. And just like you said, the thanos or the thanos, if your wife, your spouse, is also in a group and doing their work, then they should be growing and. And getting to a place where they can hear that maybe you're angry about something and that you have this safe place where you can come together and share it. I have had to help John draw that out because he doesn't just volunteer that he's angry. And now he's gotten a little bit more used to saying it without me drawing it out. And so maybe find a mentor or somebody if it's not your spouse, a mentor, a leader, a friend that can maybe check in with you. Do a check in with you once a week and ask, like, how are you doing? Have you. Did you notice any areas where you stuffed your anger instead of expressing it, have healthy ways to express it would be just communication, like in a. When you're not feeling triggered. So wait till you're not feeling triggered to communicate how something upset you. Writing it down. Doing a journal. When I was first learning how to process my anger, I would have to do a journal first because it would be like 10 pages. And then I would have a trusted friend or group member read it and say, you only need to give him these two paragraphs, not the other eight. And, you know, nine pages. And so find safe people that can specifically ask you how you felt angry this week and how you dealt with it and what you were feeling and what you were thinking and what you could do next time.

We want to remember that emotions, many of them are indicators. They are not the thing itself. So when we feel anger, it invites the question, why? What's driving the anger? What's the trigger here? And that's, I think, a Good starting point with trusted people, with a spouse, with your group, even in a journal. Just gay man. Okay, here's the feeling. What's coming to mind when I feel it, I think of the work that I already mentioned her, but Jenna Reimersma does with internal family systems because they have a number of tools that are meant to just in a few moments, give you space to breathe. And then ask the question, okay, where am I feeling this in my body? And what. What. What's coming up with it? Like, what am I noticing? What other phrases are coming? And then asking the question, like, where else in my past do I remember hearing this or feeling this? And as you pay attention to it and your versus fighting against the emotion, you're kind of welcoming it to learn from it. To use some of the language of. Our friend Jay Stringer says the same sorts of things. Emotions are incredible educators of what's going on. And so rather than just thinking, well, expressing emotions means saying, I'm so angry. I mean, that's gonna have limited effectiveness in my opinion. If you can go to a friend or spouse and say, I'm feeling this happened and I'm feeling angry. But I realize it connected to this message I'm hearing about my value, my worth, my identity, and that this connects to ways that I felt as a child or in another relationship. Man. And then asking the question, what can I do about that? Because I think our society treats a lot of the negative emotions like anger and anxiety, like a problem to be medicated or done away with. We'll just get rid of the anger versus seeing it as an invitation to understand what's going on at a deeper level. So I think the more you find opportunities, even like using your Fanos, check in or your faster skill to name the emotion, but then look underneath it and say, what else might be going on here? Then you're actually starting to express them by processing them. Because I also think there is a little bit of a misleading concept in our culture that the way you deal with emotions is express them. So if you're angry, it's like, go punch the mattress. Or if you're depressed, go exercise until you feel better. It's just like we're kind of programmed to think you just make emotions go away.

Yeah.

When I think what we ought to look at is emotions are there to teach us something, and if we're not willing to learn from them, they just keep coming back until they're trying to say, would you pay attention to this? So what does it look like for you to Pay attention to that emotion to learn from it and continue to make that part of your recovery. And then I think emotions start to take on a different flavor in our life.

And like you said, use it as an indicator. I get really, like, hot, fast heart rate when I'm. When something's triggering me. And so to. To pay attention and. And unpack it right then if you can, so that it doesn't get stuffed and turn into some body symptoms or come out sideways later. I was feeling anxious last week, and I had to think, why, like, brain dump? What is all in my head right now? So sometimes if you can just do a brain dump, it's like, okay, buying a house, selling house, deadline here, deadline there, driver's ed, you know, all these things. And. And so then I was able to start picking it apart and going, what do I. Or when the little girl threw up on me on the airplane, I felt like I was on the movie inside out. The little anger guy was just like. And then disgust and, like, sadness and all. I really was standing there, and my.

Face and the emotions were right there.

Frozen as I'm covered in puke. And I'm just so angry. And then what I realized when I got off the plane was, like, I was angry because now I don't. My plans for the night are ruined. Disappointment. And so disappointment was really the underlying, you know, thought feeling there. And so then I just was able to, like, name all the underlying feelings, like, okay, this is a waste of my time, because now I have to do this. I have to spend money. I have to. And then to just start solving each problem. And then I was fine. You know, and I didn't have to, like, bring all that anger with me into the next week because I just dealt with what was driving me to feel so angry in that moment. Um, and so, yeah, use it as a pause if you need a friend to help you unpack. What you can do, what you can do, or what you can let go. Those usually are the two things you can narrow it down. Can you do something about it? Can you let it go?

Yeah.

Okay, our next question. How this is. This is a really good one. How do you eliminate complaining and replace it with healthier habits? So I. I personally have dealt with this in the same way. I talked about my lasso thing of am I complaining about something because I need to do something, or am I complaining about something that. That I really just need to let go? I need to stop obsessing about it. And I always try to put things in those two Categories of what can I. What action step can I do to make whatever I'm dealing with easier or to relieve some pressure? Am I complaining about my family when I simply could ask for their help with something? Am I complaining about how mud is always tracked in when I can simply just ask my kids to take their shoes off at the front door? So that's where. Where. I mean, is there something I can do? Am I complaining that my husband doesn't spend enough time with me in the evening and just wants to check out and watch tv, and so instead I just continue to complain I can do something there, or is it something that I can't help? You know, on the same side, if my husband's gone for the summer because that's his job or, you know, my mom's struggling with some aging things, and so I'm grieving, not having a normal kind of grandparent. Those are things where that is the reality, and they're not things I can change or really do much about. And so to change my mindset and look at the positive. And a really good example of this last week was I was like at my peak of anxiety with the buying, selling, the deadlines, just like different things last week and I stumbled across the podcast by Dr. Carolyn Leaf, and we like her and her. Her information on the brain. And it was called how to Flip the Script of Stress. And I was like, I don't really listen to podcasts because I'm too busy and. But please listen to this one.

Except for the pure desire.

Except for this one. But I was like, you know what? This feels like a God thing. I better listen to this. And I listened to it. And then what I did next step was I sent it to John, my husband, and I said, can you listen to this and help hold me accountable? Because I'm really letting my thoughts run wild and this process isn't going to be done tomorrow. And so he listened to it, and she happened to say it was her most stressful year of her life and she was buying and selling a house that year. And I was like, oh, my gosh, me too. This is so from God. Someone knows me. But I complained about something later, and I am in the season of I've done what I can do now. It's just a waiting game and a trusting God in certain circumstances. And so John was able to say, okay, what's the silver lining in this? Because, you know, we've done what we can do here, and now we're just waiting and trusting. And that was really helpful.

For me.

So separate. Can I do something? Do I need to trust? Do I need to bring in a friend to help remind me when my brain starts to go wild? Because being limpic and that's a real thing.

Yeah. It makes me think of a Bob Newhart skit that we show a lot. If you're complaining all the time, you just need to stop it. Just go watch that video. That'll cure you. Bob Newhart, may he rest in peace, shows us that just determining I'm gonna stop complaining often is not effective because there's a pattern there that we've gotten into. And I. I like what you said about seeing the two sides. To me, like, complaint is one side of a coin and gratitude is the other. In every situation, there is another side of the coin. We could flip over and see the gratitude angle. And I remember thinking about this a lot. I heard a sermon by Pastor Andy Stanley. He tells the story of, you know, driving home and the garage door comes up and the kids toys are all over. So before he can pull in, he has to get out and move all his kids toys. And he's like, grumbling. And I've told them all the time to be. Not do this, and their bikes are everywhere. And then he'd spent an afternoon with a couple that was grieving the loss of a child, and they had no other kids because they battled with infertility. And when they were finally able to have one, they lost it. You know, and he's. He's sitting in that gravity, and he comes home and the garage door goes up, and he has that moment of like, lord, thank you that I have children whose bikes I have to pick up, and he can still train them to, you know, put their bikes away. But that moment of like, I've got a full garage of toys. Isn't that awesome? You know, we can be pumping gas, like, oh, the price of gas. Or thinking, lord, thank you that I've got kids that I run around, and they love to do things, and I'm busy seeing their sports. Thank you that I get to do this. Or, you know, maybe we're in recovery and our wife is angry at us, and we can be grumbling, complaining. Or we could say, lord, thank you that I've got a spouse that is still with me, because many don't. Many have a spouse who wants nothing to do with them, and I'll never talk to him again. And your marriage isn't perfect, but she's still there. There's a gratitude angle. So it's I think flipping that coin, and it's one of the exercises Dr. Ted taught men in the seven pillars of freedom very early on is that part of their nightly routine should be five gratitudes. That even if you had the worst day, there are some of those even if kind of gratitude statements to say, Lord, even if nothing went right today, thank you that I have your love. Thank you that I have the promise of heaven. Thank you that you've given me your holy spirit. Thank you, thank you that your mercy is new every morning. And if every night we write down five gratitudes from the day, it's like our brain, we're training our brain to see the other side of the coin. And that's what I would. Would finish with is just that I think complaining and gratitude are kind of like muscles. And whichever one we exercise the most, it grows. And when we get into that complaining mode and I. I know I can get there too, of like, you know, at first it's the kids, and then it's the bills, and then it's the mess in the house, and then it's. And then pretty much everything. You're just like, I hate my life. And then the truth is like, man, no, I have a great life and I can be thankful for this and this. And if I train my mind for that, I will start to see those gratitudes. So I think it takes discipline. It takes that routine. And I love what you said that if you're really struggling, ask someone to help you in that area. Have someone keep you accountable, make it part of your plan of change. Because it really is, I think, an area that we can minimize but really makes a major difference in our outlook if we're choosing to see gratitude over complaining and grumbling. So it's worth paying attention to. And, yeah. See how you might be able to find the other side of the coin.

Yeah. And I think it in even in all the things we talk about on this show, everything have people around you who have been there done that and understand what you're going through. Because we don't ever want to, like, spiritually bypass anything either. If you say, oh, my husband just had an affair, and it's like, well, at least you have a husband. So I love the. And you know, that we learned when we were in our PSAP training of, you know, it is sad that my kids don't have some active grandparents that I hope they have. And I'm also really thankful that we get to have my mom at our family. And even though she's more like our daughter now than my mom. That we can say. And, you know, we can be sad about things and thankful at the same time and acknowledge those feelings. And you know, Jenna Reimersman, I know she does that too, is like, thank you for the work you've done or, you know, that met a need or acknowledging the hurt and moving forward and seeing the silver lining in it.

Yeah, yeah. A lot of strategies there. And it is, I think, similar to what we talk about a lot. It's a part of changing our brain, rewiring our brain, learning to take on that new perspective and develop a perspective that is more rooted in what God has done, what he says in his Word, and that that takes time. Last question we're going to address today, Ashley. So thank you to our listeners for being a part of episode 400. But we want to talk a little bit as we wrap up today. How can we get churches more open to this idea of talking about sexuality and compulsive behaviors and helping people, addict and betrayed? How can we help? Especially when it comes to helping teens in the church? What ideas do you have about that question?

One foot in front of the other, one person at a time. Yes, we would love to see churches take our newest research from the Barna report and say, this is a problem. Churches band together. We're going to do something about this. But what we see most often is that the people who are personally impacted by the healing they've experienced or the recovery journey they've been through are the ones that are on fire and have the passion and the bandwidth to bring it back to the onion layer. This is the onion layer they're peeling right now. And they are all about it. And I just, you know, I just see that being the most common way and so continue to walk through every door. We do this for a living. We breathe it, sleep it, eat it. This is what we do all day, every day. And sometimes we're dumbfounded by the amount of churches that don't want to start anything because we know that it's a problem in every church. And so don't feel discouraged if you're that individual out there saying, it seems so hard to get it going in churches, just do the next thing. Just do. We all have a circle of influence. And, and if you've watched anything where I've shared my journey at my church of just starting with a group of two and then a group of four and then a group of six, but you see the ripple effect. And Nick, I know you have something similar. And then we Have Stuart here in studio today. He's our new higher at Pure Desire, but a long time group leader and just that just continuing to be intentional about helping who you have the ability to help and then the word of mouth will spread. And, and, and if you have a formal opportunity to go to your pastor and say, hey, here's some Pure Desire material. I've been through this. Here's a, here's a little bit of our history and our story and this is how it's helped us. Would you be willing to have your leadership look at this and, and incorporate this into the church then? That's great. Just don't get discouraged by just helping one person at a time either.

Yeah. A few things that come to mind. I think of the, the idea be a blessing, not a curse.

Yes.

If you want to see this in your church, just think of ways, how can I bless my pastor? Bless the staff. And the difference is, you know, Pure Desire has a new parent training course. And a way to bless your church would be maybe in a short conversation or email you say, hey Pastor, I don't know if you've heard there's this new resource from Pure Desire and actually I've purchased access. I'd love for you to check it out and if you ever have questions, let me know. I'd love to talk more about it. Like if I got that kind of comment or email as a pastor, it's like, well, that's cool and maybe I'll check it out if I have time. And when it feels like there's no secret motive or hidden agenda or strings attached.

Multilevel marketing. Here's my.

Yeah, it's like, huh, I appreciate that they thought of this first. The curse is like, when are we going to do something about our kids? And there's this, why aren't we doing that yet? And we do all this other stuff and it's not nearly as effective and now you're kind of like putting down what we're doing and you're putting me on edge. So just to think from that angle of if I am passionate about seeing my church do something, how can I approach it with that desire to be a blessing, to give encouragement, to say, man, I know we care so much about hurting people and I just, I see this as a resource and if you ever have questions or open to it, I'd love to talk more. Like that's blessing kind of language versus what's wrong with us and we're missing the boat and our kids are dying and even if you Feel that's true. Like that's not probably going to create the conversation you want in your church. A second thing that comes to mind is to start where you are. Maybe you do have permission to start a group and you wanted the pastor to preach about it and have five sermons on it and tell the whole church to go, but all they did was give you a room and a blessing as we've talked about. And you go, well, Lord, I'm going to do what I can with what I have and trust you to use it. And we have seen so many, like you just said, ministries that begin with a couple of people that God is using it. And it grows and groups are multiplied and pretty soon it becomes a church wide thing. So start where you are. And the third thing that comes to mind is to go where God is moving. You know, maybe you really want to start a pure desire group or a teen sexuality group. But the church has Celebrate Recovery and they seem really excited about Celebrate Recovery. And it's. And for you it's like, well, that's not what I wanted. But it seems like God's moving there. Why not go engage there and see how there might become an avenue through there that this conversation continues. Or maybe it's somewhere else in your community, a caring pregnancy center is running a class, or there's a men's ministry that is open to you doing some training on sexual addiction. Like there, there may be opportunities that maybe it's not what you envisioned yet, but it seems like God's at work, God's creating something. Take advantage of that and just trust that it's all a part of the process of how God will use us and maybe one day open those doors that we've been hoping for. So with those three things, the basics, I mean, tell your church, offer the materials, try to equip them and engage with what they may not know. Education usually happens for a long time before a church says, oh, okay, we think we're going to do this. So I think just that slow, kind, persistent offering of, hey, what if we did this? Here's an opportunity. And Lenny, like you said, if it's not happening as fast as we think, to not grow weary because there's probably more going on below the surface than we realize that it might take a while to, to get that momentum. And if we get discouraged and give up, we might not ever see that fruit that God is even right now working on.

Yeah. And you know, because this person says, especially with helping the teens, I do want to point out we have Our Youth Leader Library, that is a free offering. And I even was kind of taken aback. I had sent it to probably 10 of my contacts that I know work with youth. And I'm like, did I, I, did I send that? Did it ever? Nobody responded. So I went to the email. I'm like, no, I sent it. You know, nobody responded. Maybe it ended up in spam. You know, that's what I'm. That's what I'm thinking. But it just, you. When you've realized how much healing it's brought, you expect that people are just going to be so hungry for this information and take it and run with it, and it can be confusing when they're not, and so just keep going with it. But the Youth Leader Library, there's tons of videos and outlines and it's a free resource. And so like you said, if you have the opportunity to run a parent training in, in the church and use some of the free tools that we offer or do something with your kids in the neighborhood, that was the easiest avenue for me, was just getting my kids friends over and showing them some videos. So just keep walking through those open doors.

Yeah. Well, to you, our listener, you are the reason we do this. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you again to some of you that you are tuning in for the 400th time and what an honor it has been to walk with you through your season of healing, just as we've gotten to be a part of it for ourselves. We hope that you'll keep listening, that you'll keep sending in questions and ideas, and that the podcast will be a blessing for many, many people for many more years to come. Ashley, thanks for being here and getting to be a part of the 400th episode. Yeah, great to have you.

I feel honored. I can't wait to do another 410% of those.

And if you are a fan of the content and maybe like the person at the beginning, you're one of those silent listeners and you've never done it. Would you please consider subscribing to the podcast on whatever platform you listen to or on our YouTube channel? We're not about trumpeting our own horn, but we want other people to find out about pure desire and things like subscribes, number of likes, number of shares, like that makes a difference in the virtual world. And so to think of it that way, like my, like my subscribe might help someone who right now is stuck hear about the podcast. So give us a subscribe, share it with somebody else, repost an episode, write us a review. It means the world to us and we believe it will help other people. And if you want more information on any Pure Desire, resources, groups, counseling, please Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.

Sam.