404 - Resurrecting Sexual Health in the Church w/ Andrew Rothrock

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Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 404, and here joining me today is my CO host is Mr. Rich Moore. Rich, welcome back to the podcast. It's good to see you, my friend.

Yeah, great to be here. As always, looking forward to it.

We are coming up at the time of recording, not necessarily when it's released or when people are listening, but people might be listening years from now. We are coming up on the NFL draft and I always have to ask about how you're feeling about your Bears because last year they had the number one pick, but this year I don't think they're number one again.

They've number 10.

But yeah, how are you feeling about their draft prospects?

I bet you they trade the draft. I bet you they trade number 10. And they've been pretty active in free agent, so that's pretty exciting if you're a Bears fan. But yes, 7 and 10 is probably going to be where we're at again.

So, you know, ever the optimist, Rich, they did make some good moves this off season. They're building a solid team. And that actually is a bridge into today's conversation because we are starting a brand new series called Resurrection and looking at different themes and ways in which recovery is a part of a resurrection in our life, a resurrection of hope, a resurrection of a marriage. And today we're talking about resurrecting the idea of sexual health in a church and how important it is that churches are able to build a team to come up with a plan to address sexual health in a really positive way so that it's not just seen as kind of this closet ministry in the church. And that's why we interviewed today's guest, Pastor Andrew Rothrock. Andrew pastors at a church close to us out here in Bend, Oregon. And we got in touch with him because we had just seen on their church website how prominently they had displayed their pure desire groups. And if you looked at the ministries tab, one of the ministries at this church is sexual health. And I was like, man, I don't know how many churches have sexual health listed as a ministry, but many, many more of them should. And we got to just talk to Andrew about why they've made this such a prominent part of their church's ministry.

Yeah, I think it's just a great idea for if you're listening to this for the first time. And you want to bring this back to your pastor and you're just not sure what they do. There is one. I think they've just created that culture that this is a healing place and it's okay. And we're not afraid to promote it, we're not afraid to talk about it. And they've really opened it up to the community where men and women are coming to that church. So I think it's a really great opportunity for especially if you're a church in the local area in Bend that is even thinking about doing this, maybe connect with Andrew and that church. Because it's always great to connect with another church that's also offering the ministry just to get some feedback, some pointers. But yeah, the way they promote it, the way they talk about it, they're just doing a really great job. Yeah, yeah, it's that. That is usually the struggle for a lot of churches is like, well, how do we promote it without like saying.

What it really making it weird, Getting awkward.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think you're going to get a lot of that in today's conversation.

You could go visit their church website. It's Riverbend Church in Bend, Oregon. We give the details of how to find them at the end of the episode, but they're just doing it. Well, I think what they've understood is that this is not that problem for those people that just a couple of people need group. They've recogn recognized this problem is common among people and they want to make it available to their whole church. And we know it's common because we just did this research with the Barna group. We put out a new report with them called beyond the porn Phenomenon. And one of the questions that was asked was, do you view a pornography? And people were given the option to say daily, weekly, monthly, less than that or never. And 54%. So think about this. 54% of all practicing Christians, so people that say their faith is important to them, they attend church regularly. 54% said they are viewing pornography to some degree. So this is common. This isn't a few people. This is something the church needs. And if you would like more information about the newest stats on pornography use and Christians and churches, you can find beyond the porn phenomenon on our website. And right now we're offering it to anyone who would like it for 50% off. So half price. Go to our website, put beyond the porn phenomenon in your cart, and when you check out, enter the code Barna50 at checkout. Again, that's Barna50 to get beyond the porn phenomenon at half price. And it may be something you want to share with your pastor or your church. Just like we hope you might share this episode with them as well. So a little bit more about Andrew Rothrock. He is the pastor of Teaching and Vision at Riverbend Church in Bend, Oregon. He shares his insights on why sexual formation groups are vital to their church's mission. So tune in for this conversation and we hope it will inspire and challenge you in your own journey. So here is Pastor Andrew Rothrock in our episode, resurrecting Sexual Health in the Church.

Andrew, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. Welcome.

Hey, thank you so much for having me. Really excited for this conversation.

Yeah, we are excited for people to hear a little bit about your church and the story there, what God is doing. But first, would you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, who you do life with, where you're pastoring and how long you've been doing it.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. My name is Andrew. I've been pastoring at the church that my wife and I planted for about seven years. It's a church called Riverbend in Bend, Oregon. And you know, I grew up in the suburbs of Portland and always been a part of a Jesus loving family. But I had a really radical encounter with God at 17 where I really began following after Jesus and considering what it really means to be one of his disciples. And that sent me on a journey of just going to a great gap year program trying to figure out what God wanted to do with me in my life. And I just fell in love with telling people about Jesus, about learning the scriptures, the presence of God and also just the discipleship journey in the modern West. And long story short, I was called back to Oregon where I where I've been from and just ever since have been leading in either youth ministry or college ministry. I've done a little bit of everything, but really genuinely over the last seven years, our mission has been Riverbend Church, where we planted. So that's a little bit about us. I'm married to Grace. We've been married 15 years and we have two kids. We have Isabel who's almost 13 and Judah who's seven. So it's a very full, active life and lots of great things happening right now.

Yeah, it's awesome. Great to meet yet another person that has left the greater Portland metro area to go to central Oregon.

It's the sunny side of the mountain. I'm staring at blue sky right now, it's just absolutely gorgeous over here.

Yes, well, we'll, we'll try not to be too envious when the rain sets in here. Although today it's been nice and sunny here as well, so.

Well, Andrew, like I said earlier, great to meet you and want to start off with what motivated you to begin offering support groups for compulsive sexual behavior and betrayal trauma and how have you seen that need, have you seen the need for these groups evolve over time?

Yeah, I mean, I guess I should start with my own story. You know, growing up sort of around the same time that the Internet emerged, you know, I had a computer in my bedroom and my parents, again, great Jesus loving parents, but just didn't know what good, proper, healthy boundaries would look like. It didn't know the dangers of Internet porn. And so as a young, curious, you know, 13, 14 year old, I began searching on the Internet for pornography. And throughout my teenage years I really struggled with that compulsive behavior. And it really wasn't until I went off to this really amazing gap year program. I went to Calvary Chapel Bible College and I just lived with a number of guys in a condo where there wasn't any Internet. And we had like, we wouldn't have called it confessional community, but we really had this really wonderful confessional community amongst people who are really wanting to give their lives to Jesus and be in ministry and follow after him faithfully. And so it really became this kind of, yeah, for lack of a better term, like a little bit of a seven pillars style group amongst a bunch of college students. And I'm so, so grateful for that year where the Lord really brought me out of that addiction and into more sexual wholeness. So I actually have a lot of compassion for people in the modern west, particularly in the church, who are wrestling with unwanted sexual behavior. Always have. But as I began to do life and ministry, it just became abundantly clear that although no one was really talking about it, although there's a lot of shame and hiddenness around the area of pornography is a prevalent issue, massively prevalent, pervasive issue. Particularly because pornography is free on the Internet and it's just absolutely the wild West. And so I began, as I began pastoring is impossible to pastor without just noticing these stories of people being addicted to pornography in one form or another and dealing with all sorts of unwanted sexual behavior. And what we realized is as much as we can talk about porneia in the Bible and how the scripture teaches against it, the traditional forms of just information transfer here's what the Bible says. And you better not be looking at pornography. It just isn't effective at really the transformation that's necessary for people to get free from an unwanted sexual behavior. And so because those conversations tend to happen few and far between, again, the model of a lot of our preaching is just information transfer. And didn't you know that the Bible says this? And how dare you look at porn. It just produces more shame and more hiddenness. And the culture in Christianity in the west just hasn't prioritized a culture of grace and confession and then also like, like what you guys do at Pure Desire, clinically minded recovery groups. So for us it just became this, this issue that we knew we had to deal with and we didn't really have the tools until we discovered you guys. We just didn't have the tools to do it.

Yeah, I appreciate, Andrew, your willingness to acknowledge that preaching, as amazing as it can be, has its limits because it is, it's a kind of information transfer. It. And while it can be very compelling and motivating and clarifying if it's not followed up with steps into community and engagement and discipleship and kind of the what now and the what next, it only goes so far. And I think that is a place for all of us, particularly in Western culture, to come to some more humility and say we can be the most amazing communicators in the world about this topic and people are going to need additional help. And I think that's actually held some pastors and churches back because they feel like, man, if people in my church are really struggling with pornography, that's an indictment against my preaching and that I'm not preaching the Word well enough because the word of God is powerful and effective and we know it is. But that humility to say if my preaching didn't in and of itself set someone free, that's okay. Because that's not necessarily how transformation happens. And to see that and just embrace that, I think has given you freedom to create this model of let's actually disciple people not only through the preaching of the Word, but also through helping them live it out and to all live it out one with another.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we could talk a lot about just like the American model of evangelicalism and how the sermon in the 90 minute gathering on Sundays is kind of just. It's wonderful. It's great. I spent a lot of my energy and my time preparing to lead our community and worship on Sundays. But Jesus never intended that to be the only touch point for spiritual growth and enrichment for a person's week, we really need formation pathways, we need discipleship pathways that are. That are geared towards more than information transfer, that actually get into what the Scripture talks about, real transformation from the heart, that our minds and our hearts would be renewed to be like Jesus. And Jesus was never afraid to call out sin. And so we have a bold kind of approach to teaching the Scriptures. And we never shy away from what the Bible says, and we take time to nuance it carefully and everything else. But Jesus was unafraid of calling sin sin, but he was also willing to and able. Had the capability to move towards people in their areas of brokenness without condemning them or sending them down a shame spiral, but giving them practical love and support so that they actually truly can be conformed and transformed. And that's what Jesus was saying to constantly, to people on the streets of Galilee, he would say, come and follow me. And so if we're going to see victory in this area where, you know, again, I have a lot of compassion for people who are addicted to pornography because it's so pervasive. But if we're going to have victory and success in the local church, we have to do more than amazing preaching. We have to have these communities that are based around vulnerability and confession and then also the long, slow obedience. You know, as Eugene Peterson said, you know, a long obedience in the same direction. And those are the kinds of things that the Western church, the American church, hasn't done an amazing job doing. But Gearsire has in this area of sexual recovery, has done an amazing job creating resources and a paradigm for how this kind of support community can be done in a context like Riverbend Church and like anyone's church. You might be listening to this podcast.

Yeah. So what led us to this interview, Andrew, is someone actually came to me and say, hey, have you heard of this church Riverbend? And look at their website and, you know, I check it out and I go, and. And right there under your ministries page, sexual wholeness is listed. Which I'm like, wow. Most churches don't have the word sex anywhere on their website, let alone listed as one of their discipleship ministries. And as I clicked on that, then you guys had such a great way of just explaining that you had pure desire groups and how people could start and the safety and confidentiality around them. And I was just so impressed because, honestly, that's not very common, you know, from the seat that I sit in, that even in churches that do have a ministry for sexual healing where There's a church that I know they have pure desire groups. It's often a very hidden or marginalized ministry. And so why have you guys chosen to make this ministry a prominent part of your webpage and your discipleship platform?

Yeah, it's a really good question. And first of all, I have a lot of understanding for pastors and leadership teams that feel intimidated by this issue and aren't really know. Don't really know how to commit to something like this. So I have a lot of compassion. But I guess where I'm. Where we're coming from is at Riverbend, we are all about following after Jesus with passion and faithfulness. And we recognized sort of as we were emerging into 2023, we called it the year of undivided devotion to Jesus. And what we realized was that if the statistics are true, which I tend to believe the statistics by Barna and others are true, that we're talking about a major subset of our community is, has some form of unwanted sexual behavior. There's no way that we can rid ourselves of these kinds of idols. I call it the cult of self. I don't think there's any way that we can rid ourselves of these kinds of idols without addressing them head on and just calling them out, normalizing the conversation that we all experience brokenness in our sexuality in some way and that you're not alone if you're struggling with this. And so we knew that if we were going to move the needle and actually have more whole disciples who are fully devoted and maybe even ready for another great awakening on the west coast of the United States, then we were going to need to do more than just kind of have, you know, a fringe group off to the side that maybe, you know, a really small number of people in the church either know about or are willing to participate with. We knew we had to address it head on, especially because we have so many amazing people at our church who are growing in their relationship with Jesus, but they're hitting these bound these walls, they're hitting these discipleship walls. And I see leadership potential in them. I see community leaders and I see people who can be entrusted with great leadership, but that they. This is the thing that might be actually holding them back. So if we want to train leaders, want to equip leaders and see a vibrant, exciting church in our future, this cannot be something off to the side. Also, I have my daughter, my son are part of our community too. And I want them to grow up in a different than I did with this being a normal Part of the conversation that pornography and. And, you know, sexual brokenness is all around us. And we need wisdom and we need community to walk it, walk out our sensuality faithfully. And I want my kids to be a part of a community like that. Unfortunately for my daughter, she had to sit through some of my sermons on sex. So did my mom. It was uncomfortable for all of us. But, but, but all things being said, it was. It's been a really positive experience and talk about it in a prominent way as opposed to just off to the side. Does that answer your question?

Yeah, Andrew, I think that's great. I. I have so many conversations, and a lot of what you just said are the same things I tell pastors almost in every single call about what does it look like to even start the ministry? Not just start. It's like, okay, well, now we have groups, but I don't know if we want to promote it on our website and what does that look like? And I'll just walk them through some stuff. And it really comes down to talking with a pastor, and he's like, you know what? I'm just going to risk it because they're worried about what the congregation's going to say. It's like, oh, wait, we're talking about this.

We've never really talked about it before.

And maybe they've talked about unwanted sexual behavior in a different kind of format and, you know, didn't really go very deep. And, you know, so. But when they, when they kind of go all in, there's like, well, you know what? I got men and women in our church that are hurting. We're just going to rescue. We're going to. We're going to start promoting it. And the people that. What we've heard and heard from leaders and pastors, the people that were frustrated about it, actually came back and got involved in the groups. Because now it's like. And the other thing is, like, when you go to a church, I know for us it's like, oh, hey, they have Pure Desire groups and they talk about this. Well, to me, if they're talking about it, that tells me it's a safe church.

Yeah.

And then.

And then, yeah, you mentioned about building and producing new leaders. Some of the men and women that go through the Pure Desire groups make the best leaders. Because now when they walk into the church, they don't have anything to hide anymore.

Everybody.

I mean, people know their story. They've been open about it. And even at East Hill, where Peer Desire started, a lot of the leaders, especially back When Pure Desire started, there were so many of the guys that came out of that. Now we're leading like a Bible study, anger management, all these different areas because they were some of the healthiest leaders because they went through this really deep dive and healing. So it was really, really great. And it does, it takes a lot of courage and, and just, hey, I'm going to put this on the website. We're going to talk about it from the pulpit. And usually once they do that, it's. Yeah, it's just the gates open.

Yeah, absolutely. And what I would add to that is I admire the pastors that have courage to do it. And we, we just benefited from seeing other churches doing this in a compelling way. And so we just wanted to follow suit. And, and we're very grateful for your guys's example at Pure Desire. And for, for me, I, I've just addicted to the stories of people getting whole and healed and, and being reconciled to God and brand new marriages. This is the gospel stuff that got us into this line of work in the, in the first place. And if we're afraid to have real conversations and open up the can of worms and the vulnerability, of course it's unpopular. Of course people get upset. Of course we get the angry emails and everything else that's to be expected. But listen, Jesus had all of those same issues as well with the religious class in his time. So if we're going to be going after real redemptive stories and God stories and we want to see God do something, move with power and transform people's lives and marriages and affect generations, then we got to expect that we're going to be doing something that's going to, you know, be messy or maybe unpopular with some. But that doesn't mean it's the wrong thing. In fact, it's means we're on the, on the right track for sure.

One of the keys, I think, is when we make that transition from believing this is a few people with a small problem or a small number of people with this problem to recognizing this is everybody everywhere. And that doesn't mean every single person needs a pure desire group. Although I might arg, everyone would benefit from one. But it's that perspective of looking out at a congregation. And we know this from the Barna research that came out that 54% say this is an active issue in my life to some degree. And recognizing this isn't a few people, this is a discipleship issue in our church, that we're going to help our body of believers grow in maturity in Christ. And we do that relationally, emotionally, and we're going to do that in our sexuality not because a couple of people need it, but because we're all sexual beings. And we're all sitting here saying, nobody trained me how to do this in a biblical way, how to honor Christ in this area. They told me a lot of what not to do, but how do I really grow and be transformed in some of my desires and my behaviors? And when we recognize this is all of us, then we have the courage to say we're just going to go for it because I'm not going to wait around to help everybody when I think everybody would benefit from it.

Yeah, that's such a great point. And as you were talking, it just reminded me too of a few people in our church who really, well, meaning, maybe they just. Porn isn't their issue or this form of sexual brokenness isn't their issue necessarily, but it means they maybe don't have understanding or compassion for people who might be dealing with an addiction. You know, we've all heard the story. I've heard it, you know, dozens of times myself from guys in my church of discovering pornography at 12 years old. You know, neighbor kid had showed it to them and they've been hooked ever since. Now maybe, maybe a woman in their 60s who didn't grow up with the Internet wouldn't relate to that struggle. But if we're normalizing the conversation and talking about it in a. In a nuanced and compelling way while holding true and fast to the scriptures, what we've noticed is that some of those people that might be prone to judge and criticize are actually finding themselves a lot more humbly caring for the broader community and less grow and less grossed out by it. You know, there's a stigma. There's a stigma. I know you guys have to deal with this all the time, but the more we talk about it, what I'm realizing is a church that has a lot of Gen Z, a lot of millennials, lots of young men and women who are dating and in relationships and stuff like that, all these taboo topics when we talk about it. Everyone wants to lean in and are not grossed out and they're not pointing the finger and judging one another, but there's actually a lot more shit shared understanding and compassion. And it's beautiful. It's the kind of community we hope to build. Now, I'm not trying to paint the picture that it's perfect because it's far, far from it. And we have had our bumps along the way. But I'm so grateful that we took the bold and courageous step and that we're continuing to make those decisions to champion these stories and particularly the success stories. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's a great segue into the next question for you. From your experience, what are the most common misconceptions people have about compulsive sexual behaviors and betrayal trauma?

Yeah, that's a. That's a great, great question. I think a couple of the ones maybe we've already touched on a little bit was, is that, you know, I'm the only one. I would be totally ostracized from this community if people knew what was going on behind closed doors. I think other things, like, you know, I can. I can kind of handle this on. On my own. I can, you know, just. This can be a conversation between me and Jesus, and I can ask his forgiveness, and I'm just gonna try harder. So this sort of the behavior modification sort of metric, if you will, those are some of the common things. And then, honestly, I think one of the other misconceptions is just when there's a discovery just how. How lonely, particularly the portrayed spouse might feel. There's all kinds of misconceptions there about, am I unlovable? Or what did I do wrong? Or does this mean that my whole marriage is a sham? And, like, obviously, there's so much compassion that we have for people, particularly spouses, who are in these sort of betrayal situations. And our. Our sense is that as long as someone is going through that silently or alone, because it hasn't come into the light, it's just devastating. But once there's a little bit of courage expressed to come forward, talk to one of our pastors, and begin connecting in. In the recovery community. And it is just so powerful because these stories get shared, and we realize, actually we have the support. People have been through this, and they want to help, which is so powerful.

I love the way you guys are embracing that. Part of helping people grow in this area is to embrace those misconceptions. You know, to say to the betrayed spouse, this isn't your fault. This isn't because you're not good enough. This isn't because you weren't providing your own body often enough. Because that lie is that if. If I only got enough at home, I wouldn't stray it. And we have just found that is not why people struggle the way that they do. As we say a lot as a ministry, it's not actually about the sex. It's other things that are driving us. And when a spouse doesn't know that, if they're stuck in those misconceptions, yeah. That burden of shame and responsibility can be crushing versus the role that a community of faith can play to say, hey, you're not alone. There's not something wrong with you that caused this, and there's nothing you could do so perfectly to fix this, that your spouse really has some serious work to do. And then being able to look to that spouse, and I think you've used the word several times that I would highlight, and that's compassion. I've just found so often in this area, when people get to that point of actually facing it, you know, keep in mind they've typically had 15, 20 years or longer of battling on their own and living with a whole lot of guilt and shame and condemnation of themselves that as they come forward, the compassion of others who say, we're so proud of you for facing this. You're not alone. We're with you. And I think one of the messages, so many men in particular, because that. That message of being good enough is so strong, I think for men is for a man to hear. This isn't because your faith is weak or because you didn't have enough faith. Because I think we really believe that, like, if I just loved Jesus enough, if I just believed the Bible enough, then I wouldn't struggle. And I wish to God that's how it worked, that we could just kind of amp up our own faith and this problem disappears. But what I've just seen and my own story, and for so many men is like, you can be so sincerely in love with Jesus and doing your best to live for him and be in the Word and be in prayer and still struggling along with this unresolved issue, because you've never been given the tools or the community you need to actually find transformation there. And if we could just give people the compassion of that message to quit. Yes, we need the guilt that leads us into conviction of, I want to change this absolutely. But to give them the compassion of, say, stop telling yourself it's because you're a weak Christian that you struggle or because you don't believe enough. And let's look at some of the deeper issues that might be driving this, that if you realize Christ is right there with you in it, real transformation is possible.

Oh, amen. Well said.

So, Andrew, one of the things we found in a recent survey is that 82% of Christians would say, no one is helping them avoid pornography. And that's among those who say they do have a struggle. So how do you as a church community create a safe and non judgmental space for people who are struggling, particularly when they might feel tons of shame or fear of rejection about bringing this to a church?

Yeah, that's a phenomenal question. And obviously as one of the pastors at our church, I'm responsible for leading the culture. And one of the ways that we introduced this idea to our church of sexual integrity and recovery community was by sharing stories. And I'm so grateful for particularly four different couples at our church who had been in, had various porn habits and addictions and then went through recovery community through pure desire, sort of independent of Riverbend. And then as they began to share their stories with us and we began to see some real success and brand new marriages as a result and just people walking in wholeness and freedom. We're just like, man, this is incredible. This is genuinely, you know, you know, just a, an amazing story of transformation. Really good fruit being produced. We, we asked those couples if they would be willing to share their story from the platform live at one of our gatherings, mixed gendered, you know, Sunday worship services. And, and to their credit, each of them prayed about it and came back to us and said yes. And so we hosted these conversations as a part of a mini series we did on sexual integrity. And I cannot tell you what that did for our church. It's absolutely unbelievable. Just the bravery, the vulnerability and the testimony. I can testify to what God has done in my life. And here it is. Has a given again just more just normalized the conversation and then also given people who are currently in hiding the courage to come forward and the amount of people at the conclusion of that series that did not wait for someone to discover their porn habit, but actually came forward ahead of before that and said actually I'm going to put my hand up and say this is my issue too. And I'm going to begin, you know, the disclosure process and the recovery process as opposed to being found out. I mean it's just absolutely amazing to see that. And the fruit is just absolutely remarkable. Those, those, we've called them front runners. Those four couples, we call them front runners, they've gone on to lead our recovery community at Riverbend and Betrayal and beyond groups at Riverbend and man, they're just incredible leaders. And I cannot say enough about their boldness and willingness to share their story. There's a lot more to it than just that. If you want to go a little bit deeper, I can explain a little Bit more. But the reality is that's sharing stories of life transformation and normalizing the conversation that way with people are willing to share the, the parts of their life that have been healed. I think that's where it starts.

Yeah, that's, that's so good. And I have those, again, those same conversations and I, I just look at. And look back to the. Some of those conversations where. And then talking with some of the guys that have been in the church like yours, where they sat in the service and the pastors talking about this and he sit in there and he told, he basically told himself, I'm never going to tell anybody. Well, when a church makes the decision to take this on and offer these groups for men and women and they create the safety now you throw a testimony up there in front of everybody, then the guy's like, okay, one, like you said, I'm not the only one. This is a safe place for me to go. And then, so then, like you said, they don't have to wait for D day. It's usually at that, at that point. A lot of times it's like, you know, they're self reporting themselves, you know, and they kind of.

Exactly.

Almost a intentional full disclosure at that moment to their spouse sometimes. But it opens up that space for them to say, okay, I may not know this church very well, but this is a place I'm going to go. Because they're talking about exactly where I'm at. Yeah. And I have so many guys that call me now just on the phone when they're, when they're looking for a group either in the church or an online group. And they won't say a whole lot right up at the beginning because one, they don't know us a little bit. They found us online, kind of stumbled and trying to kind of hear their story a little bit. And I always start with my story because once you start with your story, it opens up the door for them to like start unpacking stuff. And they're like, yeah, okay. And I tell them what pure desire did for me and being involved for so long and now I'm leading and all that stuff. It's like, it gives them that space where it's like, okay, I can trust this process. Yeah.

And it's. Honestly, it's one thing when a pastor says it, when the leaders on the stage say it. I think pastors sometimes discount how much to the average person who attends church. It's like, well, they're supposed to say that.

Yeah.

Or I'm sure they, I'M sure they mean well, but, but not me. Like, not really. And everybody's kind of looking around for like the sacrificial lamb, like who's actually going to do this and what are they going to do to that person when they, you know, ask for help. But when a real couple gets up and someone that people maybe know of or have seen around or they respect and they share their story and everyone starts to connect the dots and go, well, wait a minute, our pastor seems genuinely proud of them and like he likes them and they're included in our church and they've had this story. Then all of these lies that we've listened to about what people knew my story, what they would do and how they would reject me. They, they lose their power because we have an example in front of us that goes, wow, they got help and there's freedom and people still like them here. Then that hope of, well, maybe this is possible for me and just creates that open door for everyone. I think so, man. Kudos to you guys and for not only sharing one story, but for sharing four stories to like keep coming back and saying, no, we're serious, like, this is real. This isn't just a one off thing that happened for them. It's this couple and it's this couple and you kept going with it. And I know not every church has that opportunity, but the way that you guys just kept circling back on it I think is probably a big part of what created that culture for you guys.

Yeah, you know, I think one of the fortunate things about being in the church that we are, you know, medium sized church and one of the, you know, things about my job that I love is I get to spend a lot of time with people in our church. And I'm also one of the primary teachers and voices on Sundays. So I, I'm pretty connected with what's going on in the lives of the people in our church. And so it. When I became convinced that it was not a fringe issue in our church, but that enough people were dealing with this, I knew that these were people in our church that are trusted leaders who have walked a painful road, but they are trusted leaders now and they had the courage to share their story. And to your point, just not just like a online testimony or something like that, but they're testifying in a live gathering at a church that they belong in and that they're going to be, you know, seen in the coming months and everything and then, you know, going full circle. Those people who are coming forward and putting their hand up and saying, this is my issue too. Those are the exact same people who shared that their stories up front are the exact same people who are leading those recovery communities. Again, it's. It has been absolutely remarkable to see how that takes hold in. In our church. Took a ton of courage up front, particularly from those four couples, but the payoff is real. So I just encourage other churches who are paying attention to your guys's podcast to. It might not look exactly like ours, but get creative, be brave, speak the truth in love, and share some powerful testimonies.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. What are some of the most common challenges individuals face when recovering from compulsive sexual behavior? And how do you help them navigate those challenges from the spiritual perspective?

Yeah, that's. That's a. That's another really good question. I think the reality is that, you know, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a mental health expert. I'm a Bible guy, and I have a lot of theological training and everything else. So the beauty of having pure desire and the resources that you guys have produced and they're being produced so well, it frees me up to be the pastor. So we are big. We're big on what we call network of care. And so when it comes to sexual recovery, you know, people are going to have a mentor who's there, you know, pure desire, leader. They're also gonna have a community of peers surrounding them, which is amazing. We're also encouraging them to seek out counseling, preferably through pure desire. And there's a couple in central Oregon that we regularly refer people to. And then that frees me up and our pastoral team to be the pastor. So our job is pastoral direction, guidance, helping with, like, some of the marriage challenges that tend to occur in situations like this. And my big passion is helping people stay connected to the presence of God through practice, through prayer, and everything else, so that they're regularly being reminded, not by a pastor, but by the Lord himself that they are loved and that they belong. They are a son of God, they are a daughter of God. And so we do a lot of spiritual direction type stuff with folks and allows me to stay in a lane that I'm competent in. And everyone. No one's getting dropped. Everyone has a full network that is supporting them. So a mentor doesn't have the burden of being a pastor or a counselor. And we just try and divide up those responsibilities in such a way that everyone is really supported, but we're all just operating in our area of competency.

What I love about that is it's a reminder that recovery and in any area of life really is a team sport. It's like a community is needed. And sometimes I think in churches, we may fall into that mistake of, like, oh, that happens in recovery group, or we do that in our preaching, or that happens at this weekend retreat, versus saying, well, maybe it's all of it together and freeing all of us to be the body to do what we do really well, trusting that others take on their role. You know, we did a podcast a while back that we called the four people you need in recovery. And it was like, you need a teammate, you need a pastor, you need a role model to just see, like, you got to have a community around you that is all playing that role in helping you navigate what it looks like. And I think it hopefully can be an encouragement to a pastor or leader, because sometimes it feels like it all lands on us, like someone's spiritual maturity is up to me, and that's a heavy burden for any of us to carry, let alone a pastor who might be carrying it for a whole congregation. And that freedom to say, you know what? I do have a vital role to play, and having other people in recovery, having groups, people can go to that, that all is going to be what someone needs. And together we get to see people walk into freedom.

Yeah, couldn't agree more. I think, obviously, pastors need to take responsibility. And the way that I see my responsibility is laying out clear, clear process and defining people's roles really clearly, helping champion the work that that's happening in our recovery community, and then playing an integral role in the spiritual health of these people who are in recovery through, like I said, pastoral direction. And so while it does feel like a lot of work at times, that it's completely manageable, and we're activating and engaging all of the other gifts and skills and personalities in our church to come around people who are struggling to. And, yeah, I've definitely been in that place before where I didn't really have a strong team or I didn't know how to leverage my team. And so I would feel the burden and the pressure of, like, this person's entire faith is, like, on me. And if I, like, drop the ball for a week or a couple of days, even this person's going to deconstruct and hate the church and, you know, become an atheist. It's all my fault, and it's just so not true. It's another one of the lies the enemy likes to tell us. And so the reality is that this is like pure desire. The resources you guys have created and the communities that you help build really, you know, is an integral part of the restoration and, and, and discipleship process in. When it comes to sexual brokenness and recovery and yeah, past you, if you're a pastor listening to this, you can be freed up to simply be the pastor and entrust some of this other work to other people. And that gave us as a leadership team, the clarity and again, some of the, you know, the willingness to go forward knowing that it wasn't just going to be one pastor carrying the load.

Yeah, I think that's, that's one thing we tell churches all the time. It's like it. When I'm talking to a pastor, it doesn't always just fall on the pastor. That's what we're here for. Our groups team, it's like, hey, you want to start groups? Let the groups team help support your leaders. We have the training available. We're available. So now the pastor doesn't feel like he has to sit in every group. He's got to manage that group because one, he's managing the church. You know, he's got the support that the pastor can sit back. Okay, I support our group members, our group leaders, they can meet on campus. We talk about it from the pulpit. Most of the time, that's what the leaders want. They want the support that they're talking about it from the pulpit. And then it's like, okay, our church is bought in and then PD will come and support and work with the leaders if they need it. So, yeah, that's super important.

Yeah. Andrew, I want to circle back something we've talked about a little bit, but is often a missing component of this story. It's that for every married person who struggles, there is a spouse who's trying to walk through, what should I have done differently? What's wrong? The betrayal, the trust issues. I mean, there's so much that happens there and sometimes they get forgotten. And so we hear some of those, those sad stories. But what are you, what are you guys seeing as a church that you can do to be a safe place for that betrayed spouse and maybe give us some of the do's and don'ts from what you've been seeing with the betrayed side of this story.

Yeah, man, that is another really, really important area to cover. What I would say is that the first thing that I would say is you cannot expedite someone's forgiveness journey. And, and so sometimes, you know, pastors, we, we have the, the Answer which is, you know, the, the scripture talks a lot about forgiveness and how unforgiveness just kind of creates more bitterness and more brokenness. And so, and we hear that betrayed spouse spewing, like, just venting every, all the pain that they've experienced. And we try to, in one conversation, we try and microwave and expedite that process and just get them to the place of wanting to do forgiveness and they leave feeling very forgotten and alone. And they feel shame all of a sudden for not being at that place where they're ready to forgive and to actually do reconciliation. And, and then, so then the burden just gets placed on them. And so, and, and that's just completely unfair. And it's not, I, I don't think remotely close to what the scripture would teach when it comes to what reconciliation actually looks like after betrayal. And so what we try and do first and foremost is just be an, like an empathetic, safe place for those people to come and simply cry and say all of the things that is like, deeply in their heart and then do a good job of listening to them. And you know, one of the things that I love about the scriptures, particularly the psalms, you've got all of these desperate prayers, these desperate cries from God's people who feel very disillusioned by what's happening in their life story. And there's not a sanity. The, the scripture doesn't sanitize those things, doesn't clean them up and make them pg. The reality is, is that it's, it's very messy. And so what we're trying to do is to simply encourage that person to bring all of their real emotions, their real pain and everything that they're experiencing and actually just bring them to Jesus. Jesus is not intimidated by your feelings. He's not, he's. He, he, he knows what you're going through. He knows what it's like to be unfairly treated and he just wants to be with you right now. And, and so that from a pastoral direction side, that's kind of how we handle it. And then again, the response, a lot of the responsibility is on those betrayal and beyond groups. And again, I cannot say enough about the leaders that we have at Riverbend, volunteer leaders who are operating in like deacon, deaconess level roles in the church, who are that consistent touch point, you know, multiple times a week and just, you know, empathizing with that person. And then as the network of care is set up, what we find is that over time you've got all of these different strategic Inputs from a counselor and a pastor and a mentor and a community of peers that they are very graciously and gently led by the spirit, by Jesus himself, to, you know, reconciliation and forgiveness when the time is actually right. But I think our impatience and our. You know, in churches, we're always so busy getting ready for Sunday and planning events that we often don't have the. The patience to walk at the pace of grace for people who are going through betrayal. And so for us, that's just kind of. We have to keep reminding ourselves that this is a journey that's. That's taking time. We need to be patient on all sides of this process.

Yeah, that's great. Kind of go back what you said at the beginning there. I've had just a lot of conversations when gals call in, they're, like, looking for group. They said, I've gone to my pastor, and all he did was try to fix it. It's like they don't want to go to. And I get where a pastor is, like, trying to encourage and get them. And one. It comes down to, like, one not knowing what. Betrayal and beyond, or even how to work with betrayal at all. Betrayal, trauma. But it's like, I just need somebody to listen to and then let them air everything out and then come up with some common steps. And, you know, I mean, it's great that you have leaders in place. So if a gal does come up and she come up and she's saying where she's at, it's like, hey, why don't you go talk to so and so? They can connect. So as a pastor, I don't feel like I have to know all the answers. I can hear your heart, hear your story, and say, you know what, by the way, let me send you over to Ashley, and then she can walk you through some next steps. And that's because back in the day, when we started, it was like, originally it was just like the men's issue. So we really focused on the guys. And then now we have churches that may start with women's groups first and not necessarily the guys. So now the approach is different than it was 20 years ago. Yeah. Yeah.

What I hear in your answer, Andrew, that I so appreciate is some of the basic things we've tried to encourage leaders that when a betrayed spouse, female or male, comes in to be able to acknowledge their pain, to tell them it's real, that it's a normal response to hurtful or traumatic behavior. And that doesn't mean it's okay, but it's like that their response is normal. To feel these things and then to be able to express. And this might be a long road of healing and recovery. And that's okay. It's okay that this may take time. And there are points along a journey. I think it is appropriate to remind people of the forgiveness we have in Christ and how that compels us to forgive others. But that's not the first conversation or maybe even the second. Are there points at which we need to be reminded that forgiveness is in the process? Well, sure, but that is so much better when it's done as a part of someone's process versus an artificial. I've joked about how when I was a kid, my mom would do that. You know, you get in a fight with your little brother and she puts you in a room, is like, you know, face each other nose to nose and say, I forgive you and I love you, and hug. And you knew, like, I knew I couldn't get out of that room and go back to playing until I did that. Right. And so just, like, get over it. You say the words, you hug and you go play. Did I mean, it. Was I feeling it? Did I have any concept of what I just done? No, I just wanted to get over it. And I think sometimes that's what you're saying. We just kind of want to get over it and get through the awkwardness. Like, just say you forgive each other and move on. It's like, well, no, that's not actually going to create healing. That won't actually create relationship recovery if it's not done with actually intentionality behind it. So I think you guys, you've put into practice so much of what we would try to encourage a church to do in that moment. And it's not that hard. You know, it's not that hard to say to someone in pain. We see your pain and we're with you in it, and you don't have to get over it right now. Like, this is going to be a process, and our church makes space for you to walk through that process.

Yeah, yeah, I would agree with. I would agree with you. It's. It's. It is messy, but it's not hard. And I think the reality is that, again, I just always go back to the person of Jesus. He's the one we're following, after all, and he is willing to be present with people in their worst moments, and he's a great listener. And so that's really what we're trying to cultivate. And again, we can't say We've done it perfectly all the time. We're still very much learning. But, but what we have found is when we are able to validate what people are going through, encourage them, like have them look at the Psalms and encourage them to pray your honest prayers to God. And let's talk with the rest of this recovery community in time. Those, that conversation of, yeah, like you said, reminding people that, you know, forgiveness is a part of this process. It comes, but it's, but you're right, it's not that first or second conversation. It's going to unfold over time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think this leads into our next question for you, Andrew. How do you balance spiritual principles such as grace, forgiveness and redemption with the practical clinical type strategies when guiding people through the recovery journey?

Yeah, another. Yeah, really, really good question. I, I like to collaborate as much as I can with the pure desire specialists that we, that you guys have offered through your website. You know, we talk regularly with the, the counselors that are working with the couples that are in process and in our queue and that we get their permission to do that. Of course. And when, when that's possible, then again we, we, we feel very much like we are a part of a team. It frees me up to be the, the champion and the encourager to be reminding people the truth of God's word and, and, and, and supporting the process that they're going through in the recovery community and with their counselor. And then again, I'm really big on teaching people to pray honestly before God as they're experiencing this really deep hardship in their life. And so there's not a really deep strategy there other than I know my role and I make sure the other roles are clearly defined for people. And then it's just consistent and regular. We just set people up on these regular rhythms of their recovery community, the counselor, and seeing either me or one of the other pastors on the team to guide them. And it, it, it's not, not a perfect strategy, but it is helpful and supportive and we've, we've seen a ton of success with that.

It sounds to me like you guys have rejected one of the dichotomies I think churches can fall into where we feel like, well, either this is a, a spiritual process and we're, we're finding healing in Jesus, or it's a clinical process of like the brain and behavior, you know, behavior tools and psychology. And we think it's one route or the other. And you've been able to see like it doesn't have to Be either or. Like, we can have faith in Jesus. We can invite people to take their pain to him, to lean into him, to engage in spiritual principles. And we can understand. How does an understanding of my past patterns inform this? How does understanding the brain and the way God designed it and what happens in the brain through the neurochemicals that are released through sexual experiences? How. How is that part of the challenges of really finding change? And rather than having those be an either or, it's like, well, yeah, both. And. And if you as the pastor feel really gifted to provide spiritual direction or pastoring or kind of the heart of it, that's awesome. And then you have a. An expert in your church or a counselor you. You network with that can provide a little more of the tools and resources and training that you didn't have in seminary and I certainly didn't have in seminary, it's like, great. And seeing that we can work in concert, not in competition, we can be again, back to that idea. We can be part of that team of their healing, not two different options. And I just wish that model was more common in our world because I think there is still a good segment of Christianity that feels like, well, if we do anything other than what Jesus says in the Bible, we've somehow left faith behind. It's like, no. God gave us our brains and God gave us our world. And as long as we're rooted in him and in His Word, I think we're invited to incorporate tools, just like we do in other areas of life. I don't take all of my financial tools from the Bible now. My rootedness is in the Bible, but there are so many things about finances that didn't exist 2000 years ago that I use tools like the Internet and spreadsheets. The Bible says nothing about spreadsheets, but they've really helped me. And, and in a, you know, I'm being kind of comical about that. But when it comes to healing and recovery and our sexuality, like, understanding the brain isn't leaving the Bible behind. It's incorporating tools so that I can live out what the Bible says with greater fullness. And I think it gives pastors then that freedom, like you said earlier, to be the pastor while incorporating expertise from others, that that man in your church have that training.

100. And what I would say is, you know, this is all in the scripture as well. You know, Deuteronomy says to love the Lord your God with all of your mind and with all of your heart. And so the reality is it's not an either or also revelations 12, 2, which is, I know a scripture that we talk about a lot in these kinds of recovery communities, which is, do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. I think implicit in that, that call to be transformed by the renewing of our mind, it actually involves looking at the new brain science that is now available to us to understand, you know, what a, what a loop might look like when I am experiencing an unwanted temptation and, and my past behavior, how it might inform how I fall into that unwanted behavior in a repeated way, in an, in an addictive way that's not in conflict with the scripture at all. It's absolutely in line with our understanding of how truth works, how God works, and what he's revealed to us in the natural world. So I think it's a really valuable exercise to work in harmony with the skill sets that have been developed through, you know, therapy and brain science. So we, we, we lean in and at the same time, we're always looking for that harmony between scripture and science.

Andrew, we are so thankful for what you and your church are doing for the community of grace you're developing and the way that that might be a model for others. Because as we know here at Pure Desire and what we do, this is not as common as we wish it was. But we want to encourage churches to move in that direction, to make this a part of their discipleship strategy to help all men and women. As you think about your own church and story and what we've talked about today, what, what final piece of advice or encouragement would you like to leave our listeners with today?

Yeah. Well, what I would say is if you're a pastor or church leader who is recognizing that this is an issue in your church as well, that, and it guaranteed in our cultural moment, it is. I would just encourage you to not put this off, not make it a fringe issue or a side issue, but to really pray with your leadership team together on how God would have you proceed. And if you're really serious about making disciples of Jesus, and if you're compelled, as I am, to be a compelling voice in a secular society that is just desperate for the truth and desperate for a life well lived and all of those things. And if you're excited like I am, about having a future in, on the west coast of the United States or anywhere else in this country, I guess, where there is a vibrant renewal, an awakening to the gospel, then we have to deal with these hidden things, these, these hidden sins, and this Habitual behavior that is really wreaking havoc in our communities. And you don't have to have all the answers. You don't have to, you know, create a new job description for yourself where you give 30 hours of your time to this on a weekly basis. You can leverage the, the expertise of pure desire and the communities that they build as a way to partner with an organization that does have a lot of expertise. And really, I think what God might be asking you to do as a church leader or pastor is just to be really honest and vulnerable yourself with your own sexual brokenness and lead your church with that, lead forward with that vulnerability and be willing to talk about this from the pulpit. It was very uncomfortable for me to talk about this from the pulpit. I'm still not comfortable talking about sex, but I had to talk about it in front of our whole church, mixed gendered, my mom and my daughter and everyone in the congregation. And so it is, it is, it's not easy necessarily, but it has been so worth it for us and we feel like we're just getting started. But I see a future where it's become normal in our church to talk about these things and for our kids to actually have hope of living in a way and having sexual purity, sexual wholeness being a part of their story from early on, that's something that we didn't get, that I certainly didn't get growing up. And I'd love for my kids to have that kind of community that they're part of from the jump. And so that's a, that's my encouragement, the church, church leaders and pastors. And then just if this is what you're wrestling through, is this what you're going through? Like you've heard so many say before, that this is this, you are not alone. And there are other people who are going through what you're going through. Jesus sees you, loves you, he knows everything about what's going on in your life and loves you just the same. And you are still beloved of God. And so he actually wants to not condemn you or judge you, but give you the tools to become free. And you can do that through confessional community, through pure desire and be, by being connected to a healthy church. So grace and peace to you, I hope. I wish you the best.

No, I just, really just appreciate what you're doing there. It's been, and, and the approach you have and you're just doing what, what's needed, you know, and there's so many, I mean, it's just a drop in the bucket. There's so many hurting these men and women out there, and they're going to their church and there's nothing available. So we're super excited just to partner with you and what you guys were doing there.

And I think if I had a piece of advice, I would encourage all of us to think about how do we change. Change the way we view this topic. Because if we're thinking about how do I help the porn addict or the sex addict in my church, we're probably envisioning a small number of people or someone we don't even know about versus the switch, I think would be asking the question, how do I help all of our people grow in sexual homes and mature in their sexuality in Christ? And if I'm thinking through that lens of how do we help everyone, it starts to integrate some of these ideas about culture and conversation in creating communities that are safe places for that to happen. And it now fits together versus what do we do for those few people on the fringes. And I. I feel like that's just an overview of what you guys have done, Andrew, and you've done it well. And in many ways, you've provided a model, I think, that other churches could follow. And so if people wanted to connect with your church or see how you even portrayed this part of your discipleship ministry on your website, where could they find you guys?

Yeah, you can check out our podcast, Riverbend Church, on anywhere you get your podcasts. You can also just go to our website, riverbendajc.org and yeah, we would love to serve you in any way. But, man, thank you to the both of you for just leading the charge and making these resources available to the church. We, we do feel fortunate that we've taken some of these steps by God's grace and also through the support of pure desire. Couldn't have done it without you guys. And I just couldn't encourage you guys more to just join in, link up, partner with Pure Desire, if you're considering this as a church.

Andrew, thanks for joining us today. We're grateful for the conversation and for the way that you guys are just attempting to live out the life of Christ, the honesty, the vulnerability that we're all invited into and to do it, especially in this area, that can be so difficult and challenging. But rather than avoiding it, you're leaning in, you're inviting your people to face it and seeing how that is increasing discipleship and I hope evangelism in your church and your community. So we're proud of you. Guys keep doing it, keep running after it. And we look forward to how God will use your church and your church's story to impact many, many people. Thanks Andrew.

Thank you so much. It's been an honor.

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