406 - Resurrecting a Dead Marriage

Foreign. Hello there, good listener, and welcome to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to episode 406 today. And here joining me as my co host throughout this series is Mr. John Beguman. John, welcome back to the podcast.

Hallelujah. Hallelujah. It must have been the blood. Could have only been the blood. That is. That is the blood by Bethel. And as we get to hear from Mike and Megan today, just so impressed and kind of shocked by the power of Christ's redemptive work on. On offer personally, but as well as maritally, just in this resurrection series. And as we approach Easter, the blood is powerful. And just so reminded of that today in this episode.

So quick question. Do you know that you don't have to sing for the intro? Right? Like, there's other things I've noticed in your intros. You're always singing now.

Yeah, well, I just. I think I want to bring it back. I just so valued that a part of the podcast when you and Trevor are part of it.

So, you know, some of our listeners are thanking you for that and others are like, you know what? We were ready to move on. The singing was not our favorite part. Yeah, it's always been an interesting part of the podcast how we have a variety of listeners and we love you all, but we know that some of you have said, like, the intro is my favorite part, and others are like, just skip the intro.

Go right to the episode.

So for those of you that are still listening, you're probably in the crowd loves the intro. You're maybe thankful that John is singing, but yes, that theme of resurrection. This whole month talking about resurrection and just the power of God to resurrect our stories and in so many different ways. And today hearing about Mike and Megan's story, that really was as. As discovery happened and things came to light, it. It felt like it was dead. And yet, as we so often thankfully get to see at Pure Desire, that wasn't the case. God did something great. And I think listeners are really in for a treat as they hear Mike and Megan Ramirez's story today.

I just, like, want to caveat with this of like, I think so many people think they don't have a story like that is like such a common lie. Like, well, I grew up in a good Christian home, or I had a great childhood, or, you know, know, there was no pain, there's no trauma that doesn't exist. This is just who I am. And I think Mike and Megan both do such a great job of unpacking, going, oh, like that moment of discovery really actually highlighted that there was so much more that maybe they were both unaware of. And just that the process, there is a process. There are tools out there to help you go back in order to go forward that you can make sense of your story. And that in doing so I'm just again always reminded of Revelation 12. Just that that's how we overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our story. Not thinking much of our lives. Yeah.

So yeah, stories encourage us. And I know you'll find yourself somewhere in Mike and Megan's story. And what I also want to add is that Mike and Megan are a wonderful part of Team 58. And Team 58 here at Pure Desire is our, our group of monthly donors that has said we've seen God at work in our life and we want to be a part of paying that forward, paying it back to help others find hope, freedom and healing through Jesus Christ. And we see Pure Desire as a vehicle to that happen. And so they've jumped in. And as you hear Mike and Megan's story, I hope you might consider that as well our listener, that you could be a part of what God is doing in and through Pure Desire and in your story by joining Team 58. And so John, real quick, tell people where they go to make sure I don't mess it up and give. I'm notorious for giving dead links and then we have to fix it in the show notes. Where would people go if they wanted to learn more about Team 58 or if they wanted to jump in and be a part of our team of monthly donors?

Yeah. PureDesire.org give. If you scroll down on that page, you'll see a black box where you can find just a link to click to learn more as well as I just point people. On our YouTube page we have a live video from last year where we had 18 different Team 58 members share their story. And it's just a power packed nine hour live stream and you don't have to listen to all nine hours.

But I appreciate you sharing that.

Yeah.

Yes.

The stories are segmented into 30 minute chunks. And so if you're like man, you know, this episode is so great and I love stories and that's really powerful. We have 18 more of them on offer from that live stream from last year.

So PureDesire.org give I think I can remember that one. And we'd love to have you check out team 58. So a little bit more. Mike and Megan Ramirez live south of Seattle in Buckley, Washington, with their two daughters. And you're going to get to hear a little bit about the stories of their kids and their journey of healing began after discovery in 2019, seven years into their marriage. As you're going to get to hear about in the episode, Mike is in aviation and in managing airplane contracts, and Megan is a stay at home mom. And they help lead groups in their local church to this day. And I know you're going to love hearing about their story. So without further ado, we have Mike and Megan Ramirez and this episode, resurrecting a Dead Marriage. Mike and Megan, welcome to the podcast. So great to have you guys with us today.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you. We appreciate it.

Yeah. And here in studio, we don't always get to have that. So thank you for making the drive down from the Seattle area to our offices here in Oregon. We're just, yeah, really excited for John and I to have this conversation with you guys today.

Yeah, we're definitely excited to share it.

Yeah. Thank you so much.

So why don't you just introduce yourselves to our audience a little bit, tell us a bit about you guys, you know, who you are, what you do, kids, pets, animals, you know, what is life like for Mike and Megan.

Yeah. So we've been married almost 13 years. We actually started our journey and our story in the recovery realm about six years ago. But we have also two daughters. They're eight and three years old. We live in Washington and I stay at home. And Mike, he works in aviation.

Mike and Megan, take us into the moment of discovery. How did this all come out and almost end your marriage?

Yeah. So it all started on January 19th of 2019. We had just gotten home from a trip to Hawaii, and I asked Mike if I could look at his credit card charges just to see how much we had spent on the trip. This was a credit card that he had, I didn't have access to. And so he very reluctantly agreed to log in and let me look at the charges. As I was scrolling through the charges, I started to notice things that I didn't recognize. And I said, this looks like fraud. What is this? And it just kept going. There's more and more. And I was like, what are all of these charges for? And he said, I don't know. And I said, okay, well, you need to call the credit card company because this is fraud and we need to get Our money back. There's a lot of charges on here. And so he dials the credit card company, and as the phone is ringing, he hangs up. And he looks at me, and he says, actually, I do know what those charges are for. And I'm like, what? And he says, it's for porn. And at this point, I'm furious. I'm so angry. I just storm out of the house. I drive away. And it only takes me a couple minutes before I start thinking, what on earth is he paying for? I mean, there's free porn. Why is he paying for this porn?

I don't.

I don't understand. And so quickly turned around, came back and said, we need to talk. And we went upstairs. And then that's when I started to really drill into him with more questions. I said, why are you paying for this porn? And that at that moment, was when he really started to divulge that this was actually cyber sex and that this had been going on for our entire marriage. At this point, we were about six and a half, seven years into the relationship, and actually that this behavior had started when he was about 16 years old. And my world is just falling apart, Just complete devastation. I couldn't understand. To me, I said, you. You've been cheating on me. I don't understand what's going on. I. All this time, and he. You know, he's. He's admitting and just telling all of this truth that I had no idea was going on. And then in that same moment, he decided, while he was being truthful, that he was also going to share with me that There was about $10,000 in stock money that he had traded of ours without telling me. And that was part of, you know, some issues that we had had before discovery even happened. And so there was just this barrel of lies, essentially, that just kind of came pouring out in my reality of what the relationship had been like this whole time was just completely shattered.

Yeah.

Yeah. So often that's the case when discovery happens. It's that dreadful. But wait, there's more. And on the struggle or addict side, it's often that realization, well, it's out there. Let's get it all out there. But it does increase the pain and all the unknowns that were there. So, Mike, talk a little bit about what that was like for you and your experience of that day.

In the past, I had made up a lot of lies. When certain things were coming out. In particular, the credit card charges. I'd say, like, those are vending machine charges, or it's like previously, it's fraud. And I don't know what happened that day in particular, but I decided to tell the truth for once, and it came out. And, you know, for me, that day, it was devastating in the sense that the tide was changing. It was a shift in terms of the balance in our relationship. And I was still deep in denial. Like, I didn't really think I had a problem. I think for me, the. Just the level of justifications that were coming out were, you know, this is what every guy does. This is normal behavior. Like, this isn't that big of a deal. And to be honest, at that point in time, I was only telling her part of the truth. It wasn't the whole story. That would come later. And so two months from there, things continue to get progressively worse. I continue to try to control the situation, to find a way to regain control of the narrative, and I was still deep in denial. And so I reluctantly agreed to start seeing counseling, some marriage counselors. So about three of them. And I remember going to one in particular, and they're all saying the same thing. They're all saying, you have a problem, and you need to work through this. And I was. I wasn't listening. And one in particular was saying, you. You won't be able to do this without God and Jesus. And I thought to myself, I'm like, this is the advice you're giving me? Like, this is the best you got? Like, this is what I'm paying for.

Yeah.

And so after those two months.

There.

Was a point where Megan was coming down the stairs. I was on the couch on my phone, and she asked me, are you still looking at women online? And I told her yes. And a little bit later, she tells me that she's done. She wants me out of the house. I have to sit with that for a little bit. I followed her upstairs, and I was typically pretty good at convincing her about changing her mind on certain things. And this time, there was no changing her mind. There was no convincing her. She had complete resolve in the decision to kick me out. And for me, if I got kicked out of the house, to me, that meant the marriage was over. There was no coming back from that. And so I got on my knees, I started pleading, and I started bawling. I started crying, asking her to reconsider, and there was no changing her mind. So she gave me the night to stay at the house. And then the next day, I'd need to get out. I was fighting that in the morning, and she asked her dad to come over to talk to me. And I accepted. I agreed. We had a good conversation. He basically was telling me, hey, honor Megan's request. She needs that because of what you've done. And that made sense to me. But also through that, there was a point where he asked me, hey, do you remember what I asked you when you asked for my daughter's hand in marriage? And I told him, yes, don't hurt your daughter. And then he asked me, well, what did you do? I hurt your daughter. And I'm staring him in the face. And that was just a moment of the reality hitting me in the face. And so walking out that door that day, I really thought the marriage was done. Like, there was no coming back from this.

Take us deeper into that moment. Where did you go next? You left the house. Where did you go next? Where'd you separated?

Yeah. So right after that, I found a hotel room in town somewhere, and I opened up my laptop. This was like a crossroads moment for me. Do I continue down this path that's obviously not taking me down a good direction, or do I actually do something to find help? And I typed in. In Google, like, counselors near me. And the first search result was the first place I dialed. And then three days later, I was with a counselor. And that moment, for me, I was recounting the last two months. I was telling her my story, and, you know, I was deep in denial again. I'm sitting there. I'm like, why am I here? I don't know what's going on. How did this. How did I get to this point? This is in my mind thinking, this is not that big of a deal. And she sits with me very patiently, and she's like, hey, can I ask you a set of questions? Basically, one of the screening tests, and I'm like, yeah, sure. No problem. And she starts asking me those questions, and I remember some of them, like, have you ever tried to hide your sexual behaviors? I'm like, yep, Yeah, I definitely tried to hide it. Have I ever tried to stop a behavior but failed? I'm like, yeah, I've tried many times, but failed. And has anybody been hurt in the process? And, yeah, and the question's gone by the end of it. I'm, like, answering, yes, almost all of them. Right. And it's the first time I sat there. I'm like, maybe I do have a problem.

Yeah. So, yeah, you passed the quiz that you didn't want to pass.

Yeah.

Yeah. I can totally relate to that moment, Mike, of the ways in which. In our own thinking, when we're stuck in rationalizing, denying, minimizing. Like, we've kind of talked ourselves into a way of life that makes sense to us. And then someone comes along with an assessment or that actually knows what to ask, and it's very black and white. It's like, yes, no. And we start clicking through. It's like, well, yes, yeah, I'm hiding. It's all those things. And yes, yeah. And it kind of deconstructs all of this narrative we've built about why this isn't that big of a deal and we have to face reality. And yet so often it is reality that can change us, because now we're dealing with what actually is versus the perception we've created of why it's not that big of a deal. And so that sounds like a pretty critical moment for you guys. How about for you? What did that look like for you, Megan, in terms of feeling like the low point? Is our marriage dead? Is this it? Sometimes I think we have an ideal in Christianity that, like, okay, there was confession and discovery, and then he repented. I forgave him, and we moved on and life lived happily ever after. But we know that particularly, I think, in recovery over a behavior like a sexual addiction, issues with pornography and other kinds of compulsive sexual behavior, it strikes so deeply at the heart of the relationship and of the spouse that it's typically a pretty long journey. And so what was kind of that. That point for you of thinking this is it and our marriage is. Is dead? And how did you process all of that?

Yeah, yeah. For me, I knew I could. I could feel just in my spirit, that something was drastically wrong here, aside from just the things that I was figuring out or the few things I found out initially. But then there was just staggered disclosure that kind of kept trickling out over those couple of months. And so that was really hard. And then for me, I knew. I didn't know what was happening to me, but I knew I needed help for sure. So I started. About a month after discovery happened, I started seeing my own therapist, just through the church Christian counselor. And between her and seeing those. A couple of marriage counselors that we had went to. I think it's interesting, Nick, how you said deconstructing, like, his perception and his reality, but mine as well. Those people started to finally speak truth into my situation from an outside perspective. Something that wasn't ever asked for, allowed, sought out, you know? But finally we're getting this, like, bird's eye view of, like, our relationship and the reality of where we're at. And so I really started to hold on to those things because it felt very validating to hear people say, something's going on here, or using. They were using the word addiction or compulsive behaviors, and I didn't really have any context for what was going on. And so I. I started to see the reality. I. They started to deconstruct my perception of what the marriage had been for so long and give me words to it. And so I found a lot of just help through having support in that time, and I think that gave me a little bit of hope, because initially I thought, oh, my gosh, like, he's gone outside the marriage. This is the end. Like, divorce is the only option. And that day of Discovery, I had called my mom, and she was actually the first person that said, well, you can either divorce, or he can stop the behaviors, and you guys can work on this. And I was like, oh, that's like, the first glimmer of hope that I had. But then going to these therapists and them saying, oh, there's something at play here. There's something going on here. And then over time, recognizing that, like, there's actually, like, a. A system or a process to healing from this was helpful because I thought, there's no way out of this. There's no way back. I thought that was just gonna be the end of it.

Say, Megan, how did you get connected to Pure Desire? I know you're talking about a system or process or tools. Like, what was your first step towards that? And then what was your experience of betrayal and beyond?

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So actually, that first counselor that I saw, the Christian counselor through the church, she, I believe, was the first one who told me about Pure Desire, has this program. It's called Betrayal and Be Beyond. It's a support group for women. And the first time I ever heard support group, I was so excited because I was like, yay. Like, I get to talk to people. I'm a people person. I want, you know, to have support in this process and out there.

Let's talk.

Yes. Yeah. And so I was like, this is a. Like, this is a thing, because there's just so much shame, even for me in Discovery. And so to be able to find a safe group of people to talk to. So I found out about that, and then there was a local church with a wait list, and so I got my name on that list. And then when Mike started to see his csat, his therapist, they actually told him about the couple's restoration process. That they had. And so there were these tangible. Two tangible tools. So Betrayal and beyond that curriculum, and then the couples restoration process with these letters that we write back and forth to each other and the full disclosure and all of these very tangible steps was just huge to me because I didn't know up from down. I didn't know what this looked like. Oh, people have walked this out before and they can help me. That's fantastic. And so I started working with another therapist through the same company as his, so that we could work through that couple's process together as well as continuing to see my therapist and then also join Betrayal and Beyond and Betrayal and Beyond. Like, I'm still in groups today and I'm leading groups and I'm over seeing the women's ministry for Pure Desire at our church and just being able to just continue to help people because I'm able to continue to get healing and peel back layers. And it just having that curriculum to walk me through it and open my eyes to everything, the reality and just, yeah, deconstructing my life, but then the opportunity to rebuild it into something new and into what God intended, it was truly life changing for me.

Yeah, you know, I think that's your story is a big part of why we do this, why we have couples come and share their story of healing. And for some of our regular listeners, they might feel like, oh, I've heard a ton of these, and this is great. But so often, you know, someone will pick up a podcast for the first time with just whatever episode they hear about. And what you're revealing in your story, I think, is what our heartbeat is to say that when someone hits that moment of relationship crisis, discovery, it's finally all coming to light. Typically, we all look around and go, what is out there? Right. Because the average person, even the average Christian, I think, doesn't have this awareness of certified sex addiction therapists and groups like Peer Desire, partly because we're not that big in terms of a global market and all the ministries that are out there. But it's also the kind of thing you don't know that you need until you need it. And so you're not, you know, you're not thinking about things you don't need. But at that moment, if you don't know who to call, if you don't know that there's support groups, if you don't know that there's therapists that specialize in this and specialize in helping Christians through this and that you're not the first one, and that the couples all over the world have walked this road and found healing. If you don't know that, it is a very hopeless situation. And so, as you guys share your story, I can just imagine for others, it's creating these connection points of, oh, we've just been talking to a local counselor that doesn't seem to know much about our situation, but it's better than nothing. And now they're thinking, we could find someone that specializes in this. We could find a support group. We could reach out to peer desire and maybe having something early in their story. And thank God, the ways he put people in your life that did know and said, hey, what about this group? What about this opportunity? Because many go a long time without that. And then I think, struggle greatly. And we get, I think, both the positive side and the negative side of that story when they come to pure desire, the positive side being we get to help them and in a way they maybe haven't experienced before, but then also the negative side of feeling the burden with them, of like, oh, I'm so sorry you had to walk in this so long without better care, without expert help to say, we've walked this road before, and you're not the first ones. So what about for you, Mike? What did that look like in terms of you started seeing a therapist? How did you get engaged, like, in group and community?

What.

What did you do going beyond, you know, seeing that initial counselor?

Yeah. So I think the basics, right off the bat. I started seeing our weekly. I started groups weekly as well. And for me, there was a very big importance in gaining sobriety quickly. Because if I didn't do that, yeah.

There'S a lot on the line.

There is. The marriage is over. There was no. There was no more chances after that. And so I really did need to establish sobriety very quickly. And I think that I. The tool I leaned on the most that I learned really early on, I still use it to this day, is the three Circles tool. And for me, like, I didn't have awareness in terms of what recovery and what a recovery program looked like. I'm like, I just had a very general, like, don't do this, but mapping it out, actually writing it down, understanding, like, these are the things I will not do. If I do this, I break my sobriety. I am relapsing and also writing down the things that are okay to do. Like, hey, instead of doing these things, focus on doing these things. Instead of coping and medicating your pain, you know, these are ways you can process them through Healthy ways. And so having that was key early on. And honestly, as. As time went on, the beautiful thing about the circles is they evolved with my program. So we'll talk a little bit about it. But I also struggled with a lot of anger, you know, struggled with stock trading and gambling. And so those are all things that I merged into the circles. Sure. And, yeah, for me, that was. That was very important.

I was saying. Just on that note, Mike and Megan, you as well. I'm just curious, as you began the work of group and continued in counseling, with what did you guys begin to realize about your story as you begin to unpack, you know, what are. What's. What's the root of this addiction? Of course, we jumped into the moment of discovery, and there was this, oh, my gosh, financial component and sexual component. But, yeah, as you guys began to pull the onion layers back, what were you realizing about your story?

Yeah, for me, if you'd have asked me what I thought about my childhood early on in this process, I would have told you it was fine. Totally fine. The blanket statement of, like, him, no, no problems. But, yeah, peeling back that, peeling back the layers, I was able to identify a lot of the root of the addiction was really driven by wounds of abandonment and neglect. My parents worked all the time. I had to fend for myself. My dad also struggled with his own addiction, which was gambling. And that had a lot of strife, particularly in the family. And so that. That was difficult to work with, particularly at an early age. And, you know, I just tried to fill those voids of connection and longing through unhealthy ways. You know, acting out sexually online, you know, finding the fact that I could play, ironically, I could have my own gambling addiction online as well. And I felt trapped to that. And so, again, peeling more layers as I work through a lot of family of origin stuff, but also on my own with my counselor, with groups, just figuring out that I was tying a lot of value, a lot of my value and self worth to performance. Like, how did I perform in school and work in sports? And if I did good, then that meant I was good. And even in recovery, like, as long as I was doing good in recovery, then I was being a good husband to my wife. But there was so much more than that.

Yeah.

And continuing to peel back the layers. You know, there was a lot of. I was good at my job, and I got a lot of accomplishments, got a lot of recognition, and I found that was a really easy way to escape. And so I would use that as a way to Escape my problems, the pain. If I focus on work, I don't have to focus on anything else. And also, particularly in my time in the military, there's a lot of peer pressure, but I was also dealing with a lot of rejection and fear of missing out. That really escalated my addiction during that period in time, from the virtual side to more of the physical stuff as we traveled. And so, yeah, there was a lot of work done. Also realizing that there was a reward system at play, that if I did something good, if I accomplished something big, or if I just work late one day, I felt like I needed to reward myself. And so that justification of, like, you know, why not? I deserve this?

Yeah.

And so it really all was just a foundation of figuring out, like, hey, I was medicating and coping through my stress in life and in the, in my pain in my childhood, and there.

Was a healthy way that you could now learn to process life instead of coping. So, so beautiful, Mike. And I know, Megan, for you, you also found, like, a significant sense of healing as you began to pull the onion layer back, which is, is important because I think for a lot of betrayed spouses, it's like, this is his thing. It's his problem. He needs to go fix it. And just to say, like, oh, my gosh, I, I, I hear you. Like, that makes sense. And yet, like, we're all really complex, and we have stories, and those things are often colliding in somebody's journey.

Yeah, well, that is so much what you're describing, Mike, in your story. What we discover in recovery is it's connecting the dots between our story. And I think, just like we can be blind to some of the denial and rationalizing around our behaviors, we're at the same time kind of in denial or rationalization about our story, our family of origin, our past. And not, not because we're doing it intentionally, but just it was normal to us. How we grew up is just what we inherited. And we've not usually thought, you know, this is what I find with people in groups is we just haven't thought about how deeply that impacted the way we see ourselves, how we define success, where our sense of identity comes from, and then seeing all the ways that that actually contributed to the negative choices we made with our sexuality. It's all connected. And I, I think in my own story, that was my hesitancy for group was like, you know, I remember Dr. Ted Roberts said, you need to go. It's every week. Which already I was like, I don't have time for that. And he's like. And it's two hours long. And I'm like, what on earth could take two hours for guys? Because my paradigm of group was, did you look at porn this week? No. Okay, good for you. Did you? Yes. Okay, let's pray for you.

Did you?

And, like, it was like, 10 minutes. We check in, right. What more could we do? And then they start opening up all these doors of my life. I'm like, let's talk about your dad. Let's talk about your core beliefs. Let's like. And some of the lessons. It would be confusing even. How does this connect? And yet I'd heard that strong encouragement of trust the process. Trust the process. And so I'd be doing these homework assignments, like, this is stupid. Why do I have to do this? It makes no sense. And then I'd get to group, and I'd start sharing, and they were like. It was almost like you could feel little neurons in the brain connecting. And I would go, oh, my gosh. Like, how did I not see that this behavior that's in my dad's life and that I'm perpetuating is completely connected to all of this deeper stuff and is why I act out. And those are the moments that I think really are where real transformation happens. And so, you know, going back for you, Megan, what. What did some of that early healing look like? Like, what mindset shifts did you have to go through? What habits did you have to develop? Like, what. What did it look like for you as a betrayed spouse to not just go crazy or be stuck in anger? Like, what did the initial steps of healing look like for you?

Yeah, so I. When I was thinking about this, there was three things that came up for me, and one of them was growing closer to God. The other one was curriculum, and the other one was community. So I was like, oh, like, these three Cs, these really highlight my journey. And a lot of it, you know, as I was working with my Christian therapist, she really helped me on my. With my spiritual journey and just helping bring me back to a closer relationship with the Lord. And then as I was working on that and just really just trusting. Trusting God, you know, just having the whole concept of taking thoughts captive, you know, replacing the lies with truth and just those prophetic promises that we learn as we're working through betrayal and beyond and reciting those and just really just. Yeah, a transformation of the mind for me. And a lot of that comes in the process of just learning to rely on God and trust this his will be done. You know, I didn't know. I still, I. At this point, I don't know. Is the marriage going to make it? I have no idea. Like, will. Will it. Will it survive? Will we move forward? Will we heal? What will he choose? I don't know. I'm not in control of anything except myself. And what I knew was that I just needed healing. And so I just continued taking steps forward and regardless of whatever he was going to do, just trying to focus on myself, trying to break free from. Yeah, old. Just lies and narratives that just kept flooding me. It was compounding drama, truly. Like, again, just to speak to your point is like, I came into group myself and thought, ah, trauma. I have no trauma. I don't know what you're talking about. This doesn't exist for me. He's the one with the problem. He has trauma. I don't have any. But as I'm going through the process, I'm recognizing, oh, there's wounds in my family, my story, my childhood story, my family of origin. There's these things that happened to me growing up that made me believe lies that I carried with me into adulthood and are now being compounded with the betrayal that I'm experiencing in my marriage.

So really specifically, Megan, what was maybe like one or two of those lies that you began to highlight and then see, like, wow, this is now carrying so much. Even more weight.

Yeah, yeah. One of the big ones is that I'm not enough. And so I really initially, like, discovery happens. And I think, oh my gosh, like, I'm not enough. This is why this happened. But as I'm going through the process and learning about his addiction and that it's actually rooted in his. His childhood wounds and that this started long before me, that gave me some space to breathe to be able to recognize, oh, this isn't about me, but it's impacting me and I need to heal from the lies that the enemy is really attacking me with right now. And. And where did that come from? And so, yeah, for me it was I'm not enough. And then the other one is, everything's my fault was another really big one. And that doesn't mean, like, I've figured it all out either at this point, you know, and it's really just taking those things to the. The Lord and, you know, having those encounters with God of where he's speaking truth into those moments of where that lie doesn't have to take over and doesn't have to be my truth anymore because I'm find I'm I'm learning facts about addiction and, and what that's rooted in, in and where this came from. But then I'm also learning like the truth of who God created me to be and his. His intentions for my life and that I don't have to live believing the lies that the enemy wants me to believe.

I think that is such a challenging part of the process for a lot of betrayed spouses, because I think there's a fear, and maybe that's even been said in some circles or by well intended churches or leaders that just didn't have all the information that can make a betrayed spouse feel like, well, if you just understood your own trauma and wounds and fixed those, then this wouldn't hurt so bad, or it would somehow minimize what they've done. And what we're trying to say is, no, the truth is what's happened is bad. It's very hurtful. And just like the enemy uses the core lies in the struggle or addict's life to take us into the behavior, I think the enemy uses the core wounds or the trauma in the betrayed spouse's life to just drive it deeper and make the pain much more personal than it, than it even should be in that way. And again, not to say that the behavior is not personal, because it completely is, but it's having that awareness of where is this striking at some of those chords that are already there and really deflating my own sense of worth and value and identity. And when the betrayed spouse is able to voice that and see that the way in which I think they have a firm foundation to begin healing for themselves, regardless, at that point, regardless of what their spouse is doing, it gives them a firm place to walk. And she's like, oh, this isn't my fault and I can't fix it and it's not all about me. And then in a healthy way, knowing what is my role with my spouse, where do I support them in their recovery as appropriate? But a lot of that work can't happen if they stay blind to their own trauma. And so it's, it's a delicate process. I think in groups that we're not, we're not trying to blame, shift in any way or somehow tell the spouse like, well, you have work to do too, but in a redemptive way, say, you know, as you do your work, it's going to give you some footholds here to, to heal and recover from something really traumatic. And I just think you voiced that really well.

Yeah, I didn't even realize either before going into this process that I had lost my voice over the course of our. The initial parts of our marriage and through doing my own work and just recognizing I need help regardless of the outcome, like, I need to heal because I felt so lost. I was so lost and confused and just had to figure it out. I felt so empowered when I realized I was regaining my voice. I was in control of me. I could trust in the Lord and move forward with his plan for my life. And it didn't have to be based on anybody else's narrative. What had happened to me. I could just move forward. And that was very freeing and empowering to me. And, you know, that's part of the reason why I continued on to just help other women and to lead groups is because I just felt so empowered in that moment that I just felt like I had to share that.

Yeah, it's so strong. I love the way, Megan, you've been able to regain your voice. And I love even that, like, you're getting to lead groups at your church. Like, this isn't just like, oh, and now Mike's redeemed and Mike leads group. It's like, Megan's like, no, like, I found healing, and I want to give that away to other women. It's just really beautiful. I'm just. I know, Mike, for you, like, some of your own faith upbringing was maybe around that of, like, the Catholic Church. And that moment. I want to come back to that moment you talked about the council's like, hey, you need God. Like, this isn't going to work well if you don't have Jesus in this equation. And I know that it was years later in the process of recovery that there was a pretty significant moment. And so could you take us into that moment of. I know there was some. This is maybe around anger, like, maybe another moment of separation. And. Yeah, zoom into that.

Yeah. I mean, I was. Again, I scoffed at that advice. And, you know, years later, it couldn't be more true. I needed God. And when we were separated, we were separated for about six months. I was living out of a trailer, and Megan offered me, hey, do you want to come to church? Reluctantly, I was like, yes, I'll go. Because honestly, for me, at that time, it was the only time I was going to be able to spend with them regularly. And so I was like, yeah, sure, I'll go. I'll go to church. And I grew up Catholic, went to mass every week with my mom. It was more religion than it was relationship, I heard recently, which. Which is definitely true. And going to A Christian church for the first time as a Catholic is very different. Like, it's very different. I was. People are loud, raising their hands. You know, it's. There's a lot of spirit. And this is not Mass anymore. It's not Mass. And I was like, oh, wow, this is. This is a lot. A lot to take in. But the more and more, um, I went, and the more and more I allowed the Lord to kind of work in my life. Yeah, I. I mean, for me, I was able to gain sobriety, a level of sobriety, pretty quickly. But there was still a piece where we were working parallel programs where she was doing really good in the healing space. I was doing really good in the recovery space, but the reintegration piece was missing. And I think the reason for that, that I've come to know at this point is God was missing in the picture. And four years in, I'm still struggling with a lot of anger and resentment that's manifesting into rage episodes and particularly triggered by stuff that I'm working through in my family of origin stuff. And I had an episode four years in, and Megan asked me to leave the house. And so I come back, and I'm ready to throw in the towel at this point. Like, I'm done. I don't know what to do anymore. Like, I think I've done it all, and there's one piece missing. And so I tell Megan, I'm like, I'm ready to quit. And she looks at me and she tells me, well, go tell your daughters that you're quitting. And I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it like that. That's too much to say that to my daughters. And so we sat at the table for a little bit, and Megan asked me another question, if I was ready to surrender to the Lord. And it took me to that moment in time. It took me all those years of pushing back, of being basically a jerk and scoffing at the advice from my counselor to come to realize that this is what I needed and I needed to say yes. And I said, yeah, I said yes. And Megan proceeded to pray over me for the next 10 minutes. I've never had somebody close to me pray over me. And for her to do that, given all the pain, given all the lies, giving all the suffering I put her through, all the pushback, she had the grace to pray over me and over our relationship, and that. That was very powerful moment. And from then on, you know, the Lord continued to work in my life, continued to challenge me. There's a. There's a point around money where I have been very selfish with my money. I have wanted to grow our finances for us, only, for the family. And I didn't care about giving it to anybody else. I didn't want to give it to the church. I didn't want to give it to anyone else. And so, Megan, we've had conversations back forth on this a lot. And she asked me one day, well, how can you justify spending money on women and gambling, but you can't give it back to the Lord? I don't know how you answer that. I don't know how you answer that.

Pretty convicting there.

And so that totally changed my posture to where we started tithing and we started giving back to organizations. Pure Desire was a big one because we've seen what it. The role it's played in our lives, and we wanted to give back, to give the opportunity for other people to find healing and freedom. And so that was a big posture change for me. Yeah.

So what was that moment like for you, Megan? As you know, there's clearly kind of a spiritual resurrection there for your husband, and you're a part of it. In. In a moment of conflict, though. Tell us a little bit of your side of that story.

Yeah, I think so. I had started, obviously, like, when we were separated. We were separated for six months. I just spent a lot of time with the Lord, and I had written down things that I was praying for. And one of the things was Mike's salvation. I knew a little bit of his backstory. You know, we, unfortunately, throughout our marriage, didn't go to church. I grew up Christian, but again, like, this process brought me close back to the Lord, closer to the Lord. And I was just believing that, you know, God can do anything. He can save him. He can do anything. And I, again, I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know how this is going to turn out, but just believing and just having the faith that God could do anything. And so four years of that. Four years of just trusting, hoping, praying.

Yeah.

And then to come to this moment. And, gosh, there have been so many, so many lows, so many moments of where I'm like, seriously, like, not yet. You're not ready to fully surrender yet, you know, and then. And this was another opportunity. And so I was actually kind of surprised that he finally was like, yeah. Like, I'm like, do you want to accept the Lord into your heart? And he's like, yeah. And so I was very surprised, but also Just very relieved. And in that moment, you know, leading him through, you know, a prayer of salvation and giving his heart to the Lord and just sitting there with him and agreeing with him in prayer, you know, by faith that he's. He's saved and that he's a new man and then just being able to pray over him. What I believe God sees in, in him, you know, and the potential and all the things that God desires for his life and stuff. And it was a huge moment. And I wish I could say that that just magically changed everything and everything was perfect from there on out, but it's still always work. But it was such a shift. And I think, you know, that was two years ago. And the amount of progress that we've made in this past two years versus that first four years has been significantly greater just because the power of the Holy Spirit, that was just a piece that was missing. We can only take ourselves so far. He could only take himself so far. And then it's funny because you do have to essentially lose your life to gain more and to progress and move forward. And that's what we've really seen.

Yeah. Something must die in order for new life to be resurrected in a really beautiful way. And Megan, just to say thank you, like, thank you for embodying the person of Jesus. Like, I just, again, I don't know if I've seen such a clear representation. Like I'm literally in tears. Like, this is the gospel. Like, are you hearing this? This is the gospel. Like we walk away from God, we hurt him, we mock him, we whatever. And he is this loving, pursuant Savior who comes back to mend our wounds even as we walked away from him. And just like literally the person of Christ being so represented through you in this moment to Mike at the kitchen table and to your words like, and to the counselor's words like all of a sudden, you know, with Jesus in the picture, like there, there's more resurrection, there's more life, there's more growth and even one maybe thought possible. And I know a big part of your guys story were not just dates of devastation, but also some really significant dates of resurrection and redemption. And I'd just be really curious, Megan, if you want to again just zoom in to how God redeemed some of those dates for you guys.

Yeah, there's two big dates in 2019. So January 19th of 2019 was Discovery D Day for us. And then July 30th of 2019 was the day that we did full disclosure. So discovery and full disclosure and Everything's coming out. All cards are on the table. Um, I call it ground zero.

Massive days.

Yeah. Huge. Truly devastating. Really, really difficult days. Days where both of us were unsure if the marriage was gonna make it at those points. So keep those in mind. To give a little bit of context here, though, when discovery happened and all of us came out and we're going through this separation, this first year of healing and recovery, I really wrestled with, who am I married to? Who is this man? What's happening to our marriage? What's it gonna be like going forward? We had talked about having two children. At the time, we only had one. That dream, kind of dying, withering, and asking myself, if we even survive, will I ever even want another child with this man? Um, and at the time, I. I didn't have an answer for that. I didn't know. Um, so we fast forward about a year of us, you know, just working and gaining some traction in. In the healing and recovery process. And we talk about it, and we decide, yeah, we do want to try to have a second child. And so shortly after we get pregnant, we make the doctor's appointment, we go in, and it's eight weeks, so we get to hear the baby's heartbeat. So we're really excited. We go in there, get on the ultrasound, and there was no heartbeat. And they tell us that you had a miscarriage, which was devastating, confusing. I had such a great pregnancy with our first daughter. I didn't see it coming. Blindsided, truly. Again, blindsided. More devastation, grief, loss. That was really hard for us. So, you know, on top of everything that we just walked through, and we're still walking through that, there's this other layer of loss in our. In our lives, and we just really had to spend some time grieving, grieving that loss and. And kind of coming to terms with that. And then you fast forward a couple months more, and we were pregnant again. And so I didn't realize it at the time, but I made the appointment to go hear this. This baby's heartbeat. At eight weeks, again, we're freaking out. Like, oh, my gosh. Like, we. We. There better be a heartbeat here. I don't know. Like, what do you. Okay, God, like, it's up to you, whatever what happens here. I made the appointment, ironically, not intentionally, for January 19th of 2021, and we got to hear our second daughter's heartbeat. And so God really redeemed that moment for us. You know, when I had the miscarriage, I really wrestled with God. Do I deserve to be happy or do I get to have another child. Am I being punished for something? Did I do something wrong? All of those narratives and beliefs and, you know, throughout the grief process. And so when he showed up in that moment, and I didn't realize it at the time, but on January 19th of 2021, two years after the date of discovery, we get to hear our baby's heartbeat. That was such a. Such a moment of redemption. And then fast forward a little bit farther. And she was due mid August, but actually I went into labor two weeks early. And she was born on July 30th of 2021. And I didn't realize any of this maybe till six months to a year after she was born. And I was reflecting dates, and I thought, there's no way like this, what? And I went back and I looked and I was like, sure enough, that is a God moment. You can't make that up. And I just really felt like God showed up. And all my questioning, do I deserve to be happy? Am I being punished for anything? What's. What is all of this pain for? What does this mean? He showed up and he said, I'm going to redeem those dates. I'm going to redeem that pain, and I'm going to. You know, it's like restoring the years that the locust have eaten, essentially. And he just showed up. And I felt really seen through those redemption dates.

Yeah, it's so amazing. And it's what really, this, you know, series we're doing this month around the time of Easter, on resurrection. And we get to be a part of that in so many stories, as things that seem dead or hopeless or lifeless come back to life. And we know that, as you mentioned, not every story has a perfect ending. It doesn't always go exactly as planned. But I would say in every story, as people continue to open their lives to God, just surrender to what the Holy Spirit wants to do, ask him to lead them. Whether, you know, in someone's story, the marriage makes it or not, the spouse stays around or not the spouse is engaged in healing or not. In every story, there are those moments of redemption, not always on the same date. That's pretty amazing. But just the ways people look back and go, man, I always think of what Joseph says to his brothers in Genesis 50 of what. What you intended for harm. God is used for good.

Yeah.

And so many couples or individuals that would say, yeah, when. When it broke, that day of discovery, or that disclosure, or when they walked out or when it ended, I thought it was the worst day of My life. And it would never get better. And they say, and yet look what God has done that because of that moment. And that's, I think, part of what I hear in your story. It's like because that moment happened, God was able to bring new life into your story, Mike, and then for you as a couple, that a second daughter became your world and became what happened. But would it have ever occurred that way had it not been for the bringing to light of what was dying and what you said, John, you know, that something had to die for this new life. And how incredible that your second daughter was really representative of that, that new life and that, that resurrection of your, your guys's marriage and of your faith. And Mike, a little bit, what was that, what was that like for you as you watched your second daughter come into the world and kind of became aware that this was replacing those dates that had been earlier in your marriage?

It's not. There's no way it's a coincidence. There's no way like that is God working. And to me, it's just another of the many examples of God being at work in our lives. And so for me, it's, it's, there's too much weight to it. It's too powerful. And yeah, there's no way it was a coincidence.

And she truly is a ball of energy in life. Like, oh my goodness.

She is a force to be reckoned with. Certainly. Yes.

It's so beautiful. I'll say in just present moment, how do you guys keep your marriage healthy and strong? What are some of those daily rhythms or habits I know you guys have? You don't think that recovery is over? Praise God. You're like, no, this is, this is life.

Yeah, I always say communication, always.

Yeah, we honestly talk recovery daily. So yeah, yeah.

So that just kind of tangibly plays out. And we have structured check ins that we have found very useful. We do fanos a couple times a week. And then of course, anything and everything that comes up in between just always, always communicating about everything over. Communicating, that's a thing just for people.

Who aren't aware of what famous is. Can you take us into the acronym? What does that look like?

Yes. Yeah. So the version that we learned from our therapist is feeling and then affirmation and then activity. So two A's and then need and then ownership and then struggle and sobriety. So we get the opportunity, each of us taking turns to go through and to share something in each of those categories. And it just really gives us a good structure to rebuilding intimacy. To getting to know each other, to sharing about our day. And it's not just, hey, how was your day? Good. Okay, cool.

Yeah. And then there's parts of that where it's not all sunshine and rainbows. And I get to share with Megan areas that, hey, this week, here's where I've fallen short. Here's where I'm struggling and let her into. This is an area that I'm still working on or that I'm doing work on. And so those structured check ins. Yeah, they are their money.

Yeah.

I think another thing that, you know, after giving my heart to the Lord and walking that path, adding prayer into our relationship was a game changer. And as hard as it may be, even when things are really tough, being able to come back in prayer has been huge for us. It's become routine. We pray at night.

Yeah.

All the time. And. But typically when, when things are tough, having that vulnerability to lean into prayer is game changing for the reconciliation process.

Yeah.

And obviously we're still leading groups as well. Yeah, we're, we feel like this is a lifetime journey. So we're always going to be involved in something. Yeah.

We've come to the recognition that if we always have to just be doing something in some capacity, some sort of growth work, and you know, that might look different in different seasons of life, but our pastor says if something's not growing, it's dying. And so we want to continue to grow individually and in our marriage. And so, yeah, it was a lot, it's a lot of work up front in recovery and healing for sure. And now we, we just understand that it is a marathon and that, you know, we always, there's always more resources and just more we can do. And then, yeah, another tangible thing is just in leading groups and just being able to pay it forward because every time we sit in a group, we continue to learn more about ourselves. And so it's just been an ironically beautiful journey, really, the way God has used it as we've leaned into it.

What a difference. Six years of your marriage from the first, like, yeah. Oh, my goodness.

Seriously.

I always think of the metaphor. Someone said that a house that hasn't been lived in over 10 years would deteriorate far more than a house that was lived in. And which is kind of counterintuitive because you're like, well, if people live in it, they're banging things and you know, life. But the other side is life produces energy. There's warmth. You're keeping the house heated, there's air moving in and out. It's life that sustains us. But when it just sits stagnant, it deteriorates. And the seasons of change cause the house to just further and further slip away. And so what you're saying, if we're not moving forward, if we're not growing, that stagnation in our life actually moves us away from what we want. And I think it may be important for couples to hear that we don't always have to call it recovery, you know, because I think sometimes the word recovery indicates, like, well, there's ongoing relapses and there's. It's always painful. And recovery is not, for some people, a very fun word. I think it's helpful to see that when you guys say recovery, that it's just growth. It's relationship. It's doing the hard work that we all have to do to have healthy relationships, to walk with the Lord, to keep short accounts, to address our fallenness, because we're all going to be fallen in this imperfect world until we die. And just owning that of like, oh, we're on this journey, but now we're on it together. And now this is just becoming the new rhythms of how we do life. And I think the rhythms you're talking about are sustainable. They're doable. We communicate more. We include the Lord. We pray, we help other people. I mean, those are the kind of things that any one of us could just make a part of our. What are our standards of a life well lived? I communicate well with my spouse. I include the Lord. I help other people. That's not as much recovery as just healthy living. And I think what so many of us missed in our stories when we were struggling is we maybe hadn't been mentored or taught how to live healthy in our inner world, in our relationships. Like, we maybe. You know, I grew up in a Christian home, so I was taught a lot about spiritual health. Read your Bible and pray. I learned fairly good things about physical health, but in terms of, like, that real relational health and dealing with my sexuality, like, I didn't get it. And so, so much for me of pure desire groups. And that counseling process was learning, like, how do I be a healthy individual in this part of my life? And. And I think you guys are living it. And I. I really appreciate the way you kind of put that at a level people go, oh, we. We could do that. We could take those steps, because we all need to be doing something along those lines.

And not just healthy, Nick, but also, like, honest. Like, I can only imagine how Honest. Your fanos check ins are like, it's hard work. This is a commitment to reality at all costs. I was home over Christmas maybe two years ago, and I had bought my dad like this little like dad's to do list and put it on the fridge and it was like a little whiteboard and I literally wrote out thanos and I just.

With the acronym and I'm like, well, they do thanos.

Yeah, they got an extra A. Yeah, yeah. It was just so cool. Like that thing has been on my parents fridge for like the last two years and I don't think they even really use it. But there have been moments where I'm home and they get into some sort of conflict. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you feeling? Yeah, how can you affirm? We start walking through. They're like, john, like, we want you to be our son, not our counselor.

It's so funny.

But all that to say it's such a helpful and practical tool to get to the root of what's going on. And to your point, you want to be healthy, therefore you are being radically honest. And it's not just, oh, I relapse, it's oh, like, I'm looking to work right now for approval or performance or my boss or, hey, I'm finding myself not coming home because I'm afraid of having to deal with this conflict or I don't know how to handle, you know, our three year old or eight year old and their development. Like, oh my goodness, like the radical level of honesty that I can only imagine you guys are committing to, to pursue the health that is on offer. So just to say, well done, like, I'm so proud of you guys.

Yeah, thank you. We've also, like, you know, at this point kind of had a mindset shift of just everything that comes up where, you know, it used to feel like tragedy. Anytime there would be a hard conversation, tough things would come up. Like a speed bump, if you will. We look at everything as an opportunity. And that having that mindset shift really just changes everything because then we're able to move toward, continue to move toward health. You know, if we look, oh, this is an opportunity to communicate or to learn about ourselves, to grow or to, you know, go back in the process. Like how you guys say that the process is like cyclical, you know, go back and clean up some things we left behind, you know, and revisit forward. Yes. Yeah, Seriously. And if we look at it as an opportunity, then it's, it's not as scary. It's not. It doesn't feel like it's the end of the world. It's. Oh, okay. You know, this is. We. We know we can grow through trials, and so we just take it as that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you guys, this has been so good. Appreciate you being a part of today's podcast. And as we wrap up today, what would you say to the person who's hearing this? And maybe they're much earlier in their story and they're struggling with hopelessness or wondering why, why do it? I'm ready to give up. What kind of encouragement or advice would you give to someone today?

Yeah, early on, honestly, I didn't know what to do. Like, I turned to Google and I had to basically Google search a counselor. But what I would want to encourage folks with is there is a process, and as long as both partners are committed in the process, that there is hope. And so that's my two cents.

Yeah. And I think just to piggyback off of what Mike said is there's a process, but I think it's really important to have a strong support system in the process and a support system of people who understand what you're going through, who understand the nature of sex addiction and betrayal trauma that has been absolutely massive to our healing journey and has really helped propel us on this road. And the other thing, too, for, you know, that I always think is just one foot in front of the other. Like, we can't project out and know what's going to happen 10 years, five years from now. But I just. Just one foot in front of the other, do the next right thing, continue moving forward for yourself, you know, and. And then, you know, God kind of just takes care of the rest. So for each individual. And like Mike said, you know, we've experienced through leading groups that when both people are working on themselves and moving forward in their own healing and growth, that God can do amazing things.

Amen. Amen. Well, we know that every story is different and God will do something unique in every life or in every marri. And yet I think what you guys shared today is going to be so helpful for people to have maybe an understanding of the framework, some ideas of where to head next in their story. And it really creates, I think, for all of us that hope that healing is possible. And so thank you for, again, your story, for being willing to share it, and for joining us on the podcast today.

For sure. Nick, John, thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you so much.

And finally, if you're a fan of today's show, we would love it if you would subscribe, share it with somebody else and write us a review that will help other people find this life giving content. And if you want more information about Pure Desire, groups, resources or counseling, Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.