407 - Resurrecting a View of Sexual and Single

Foreign listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today you are joining us for episode 407. And here joining me as my co host throughout this series is Mr. John Begum. And John, welcome back to the podcast.

Thanks, Nick.

Thank you.

Just to say all the single ladies. All the single ladies. All the single ladies, put your hands up. And I start there. Just because today we're talking about singleness.

Yes, we are. And I wish I was hip enough to know that song or where it was from, but I don't know who's the artist singing that song.

I actually don't know if I know off the top of my head as well. Is it Beyonce? Beyonce, Kate, John, when you bring a.

Song to the podcast, I didn't want.

To get it wrong from all of.

My intros that you've got to have a little tidbit about who sang it when. But yes, today is about singleness. And we had a great privilege, I feel, to have not only you on as a single man, but a friend of yours. Isabel on is a single woman. And I think it's probably good that our listeners know you guys are not a couple.

Correct.

We didn't have you on because you're preparing for marriage. And that's so often the message about singleness is prepare for marriage. We had you both on because you're friends that are in a lot of single community and group and you both have a story to process, the value of being both single and a sexual. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, I think, man, as I was thinking about this episode, I'm like, there's only so much I can bring to the table from my male perspective, and that's not bad. But just like there are so many females in our audience, you're half of the equation. Right. Who are also experiencing singleness or talking or asking questions regarding how to steward sexuality. And Isabel is a gift to the church. Truly her own story. The way in which she stewards her scars. The way in which even on this episode, she's really vulnerable. Not just like, oh, that was kind of like. No, like, there are some. There are moments where it's like, like, thank you for stewarding your vulnerability. And so, yeah, just, I'm so grateful for her voice. I think so many of you are going to be really impacted. I think they'll find themselves in her story of like, oh, I've experienced that and nobody's ever put voice to that. And I think again, when we get to be vulnerable, sometimes we just further break that barrier of silence and we create conversation without shame that we can move forward in health.

Yeah, it was a great conversation. And even if you're not single and maybe you've already turned it off or you didn't even click on because you saw it was about singles, but if you're listening and you're not single, I believe this is a powerful conversation because it speaks a lot to just what it means for all of us to be made in the image of God as sexual beings. How do we navigate that? And it also, I think, is tremendously helpful for married people to consider what do their attitudes, actions or words convey to the single people around them. And so a great episode. So glad, glad we had the conversation. And I think you, our listener, are really going to enjoy it. So here is John Beguman, our guest and co host today, and Isabel Molenar talking about resurrecting a view of sexual and single. John, Isabel, welcome to the podcast. So glad to have you guys today.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Yeah, excited to be here.

Isabel. It is your first time on the podcast, so welcome. Just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, I am originally from the Midwest, from Indiana, born and raised. I have one younger sister that is still in Indiana at Butler University. I moved here two years ago to Portland after I graduated from IU with a bachelor's in Middle Eastern language and culture. I now work at Bridgetown Church. So a little change in trajectory. But that is where I currently serve with the young adults ministry there.

And you are single.

And I am single indeed.

Today's podcast.

Yeah, I think that was one of the cool things. It was about two years ago that Isabel and I ran into each other per se, at a young adult leader meeting. It was probably one of the first. And we really quickly started chatting and she was talking about sex trafficking. And of course I'm talking about pure desire and the work we get to do. And we're like back and forth. It just felt like we were playing ping pong a little bit of like, oh my gosh, we both care about something and we both really understand this topic. And it's just been a really beautiful two years of getting to both be young adult leaders at Bridgetown and part of that team and also both being single in a community that is really beautiful. And I'm hoping to get to talk about that today just of like, how do you build that Type of community for singles.

Yeah. I mean, that is the goal, I think, to recapture. And for the point of this series, we've been doing a series on resurrection and looking at the ways that the resurrection of Christ brings new life to various topics. And we've looked at a marriage that came back to life. We've looked at how do we experience the resurrection of Christ over our anxiety and fear and aloneness. And today to look at how do we resurrect a view of being both single and sexual, a concept that is maybe not very well discussed or ever discussed in the world, let alone in the church. And so I'm excited for that. And let's start here. Why might we need to resurrect a view of what it means to be both single and sexual? Where do you think we need to bring new life to this conversation?

Yeah, and I'll just start by saying I think I want to first affirm that sex inside of marriage is God's design and is really good. And so I think very typically, the conversation has been about that of marriage, that if you're going to be sexual, then you must be married. But I think unfortunately, where that leaves off the conversation is like, wait, what about me? And I'm single and I have all this desire and I don't know what to do with it, but I'm just supposed to shut it down or I guess get married. And I think because I get to interact with so many singles and they feel a kind of that sense of that double bind, like they're reading right in First Corinthians, like, if I'm burning with passion, then I just need to get married. And it's like, wait, what if. What if there's more? And what if it isn't just that simple? Like, what if there's a better conversation towards the stewardship of our desire even outside of marriage that would actually lead to fulfillment in life that isn't just like, I must get married, or I think the second greatest lie in addiction is that marriage will fix it. And I think there needs to be a better story told in the church regarding how to live as a single and steward sexual desire. Yeah.

And I think the. The other story that I have gravitated to in the realm of the church, only really talking about that sexual desire, being gratified within the covenant of marriage, is that biblically, there's always two covenants that are talked about that last forever. And one is that marriage between a man and a woman covenant, and the other has always been between God and his spir people. And so there is this little bit of a jealousy in me because the conversation that is talked about is like, only the marriage covenant reflects Christ in the church. But that's not true even as us single and celibate people, and I would argue more tangibly get to, like, reflect that same covenant. Celibacy is a signpost stating that we were designed for union with God and God alone and that one day all of my desires will be satisfied in him and that he is enough for me today. And that is good news that we're not talking about in the church, let alone. Alone is the rest of the world hearing about it.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to me that if you really look at the history of the church in other generations, the idea of lifelong celibacy, and I'm not saying either of you are feeling called to, that you're currently single, but that idea of a lifelong celibate, and often in the Catholic Church, being a father, a monk, a sister, a nun, that. That was viewed with very high regard. Like that was almost a preferential spiritual choice of, I am choosing celibacy for life to be devoted to Christ. I mean, Paul says in the New Testament, it'd be better if you were single like I am. And I think we've somehow lost that ideal in the church where it's like, well, marriage is the goal, and singleness is seen as a lesser status. When I actually think scripture should say singleness should be the goal, if you can. And marriage is almost in some ways treated lesser. Now, I don't want to make any of us married people feel bad about that, but that is just the dynamic I think we're looking at is how can we recapture that there is a beautiful life of being single that doesn't just involve, as I thought, you know, as when I was in high school and college and was single in my life, I only thought of that as I'm only sexual in that I'm gearing up to one day have sex in marriage. I had no concept of being a sexual being outside of that I'd be married someday. And what if God had called me to celibacy? Or what if I'd have been single a lot longer? And that's another dynamic I was thinking about also, that in the time of scripture being written, the amount of time between someone becoming of age and entering into puberty and being betrothed or put in an arranged marriage might have been a year or two or even less at times. Where in our culture, if we Know, the average age of puberty, 11, 12, 13 years old. And now the average age of marriage is up into the high 20s and early 30s, 31. You're talking potentially two decades. And just on average of when someone has become sexual in terms of their body maturing and being ready for that and actually being in marriage. So even if we think, well, I think marriage is my call or my future, what do you do for the 20 years in between? And I don't think other than save yourself for marriage. The church has had many messages for that two decade period that many people are walking in.

Yeah, it's like, what about masturbation or what about fantasy or what about desire? And they're just like, don't. And then when that is the answer, it's like, well, then it's just coming out sideways. Right. That leads to porn use and masturbation.

Behind closed doors or having those conversations outside the church, which isn't always healthy.

Yes. No, I totally agree.

The save yourself from marriage piece is what I have a hard time with, because that is the message that I grew up with in youth group and in kind of the height of purity culture, is that I am choosing to stay abstinent so that I can be a good gift to a man. That is like a bonus. But I am choosing to be abstinent and celibate because that is what the Lord is asking of me, to be pure for him and him alone. And the motivation to just be purifying man, like, is not sustainable. Like, you do need that. Like, oh, my desire is like for the Lord and heaven alone.

It's not that the highest. No, this is about my relationship with God, not just my relationship with somebody else. Yeah.

Our focus has maybe been on the wrong place. Which you're right. Then the longer someone goes as a single, if their focus is just on I'm saving myself for a man or for a woman, and they're not coming, God's not bringing them, then that purpose, like, well, why am I doing this?

Yes.

But if it is as you started with Isabel, if my purpose is that covenant with Christ for a lifetime and all eternity, then I'm just continuing to grow in that, no matter how long it's been.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Well, I know you care, both of you, a lot about story and your narrative and like, how all this fits together. So I'd love to dive into that a little bit of asking each of you to share how has God resurrected your own sexuality in the recovery process as a single person? Because that is another piece I think even in a ministry like Pure Desire, we can miss is we assume that people need to recover because of how it's impacting a marriage or relationship. But people need recovery for themselves also whether they're married or not. And so talk a little bit about some of your journey in seeing your sexuality be resurrected.

Yeah, as I sort of implied. I grew up with very little conversation in the church or in my family around sexuality. It was a non topic and something that I did not learn about until I was first exposed to written pornography at 14. I didn't even know that that's what it was at the time. I was just like reading stories online and I actually got like a sensor warning in like my school locker room when I was pulling it up one day after school. I was like, wait, this is porn. Which makes sense now. And so I struggled through most of high school because what started as like a curiosity. Oh, is I thought I was reading sweet romance stories. And then it just started to turn more explicit and out of my like longing and desire to just like know what this is and not having any other place to turn. That shame just kind of held me there for three years until I17. And I do feel like it was the grace and kindness of the Lord that kind of delivered me from that stint at least. But then a couple years later I went to college and that is when I had my first kiss, which I was with a guy who served with me in our campus ministry. Thought he was a great Christian dude and he was someone that I had initially refused. But over the course of the summer between our freshman and sophomore year, I feel as though he wore me down. And I use those words purposefully because what I had received initially as his pursuit was actually just him not respecting my no. And unfortunately, that theme defined the rest of our two year on and off again volatile relationship. And as I was trying to cope with the abuse that I was experiencing without even having the language or the awareness to call it that at the time, I reached out for comfort through pornography, masturbation and sexual experiences with other men. It was again the Lord's kindness that drew me to start actively seeking out and practicing confession with a small group of women that I had around me. Their prayers started to unwind the lies that I had been believing about myself for years. I signed up myself for Celebrate Recovery and started to just read every single book I was hungry for any resource that I could find that could teach me about my attachment patterns, that could teach me about my relationship with parents. I was desperate to understand why I was, like, stuck in this pattern for so many years, I moved here to Portland and I went through a group called Living Waters, and the next year jumped right into Unraveled. And slowly but surely, the Lord has just been rebuilding my identity and my worth and my inherent value and through vulnerability, mostly with brothers and sisters. That is his primary way of restoring me, is through my relationship with my brothers and sisters. So it is my experiences with my friends like John and my other sisters in Christ that have been rewriting previous narratives.

Yeah. Thank you. That's so cool to hear. And honestly, not heard enough, even on this podcast of a woman's journey into sexual content and pornography. And we know statistically it happens and it's real, but I think even in churches, we're like, we don't hear the story. And so to say it and name it and hear that God is working through it, that's so awesome. I appreciate it.

And just to say, Isabelle, like, I know sometimes when we share vulnerably, the enemy is like, oh, this is going to be to your shame again. But just to say no, your vulnerability is your glory. And thank you for stewarding that here. Like, what a gift to us, to the audience. That's. I don't take that for granted. And thank you for naming really hard parts of your story. And I'm really sorry you experienced some of that. And I'm so grateful for the resources that you found. Like our friend Rodney often says, healthy people seek help. And so I view you as one of the healthiest people I know, and you are worthy of help. And I'm so grateful that you believed that to take those steps in your story. I know my own story. I didn't always believe that. Like, I didn't believe that healthy people sought help. I believe that that was them. Or for really broken people or for addicts. And I wasn't an addict. I grew up in a good Christian home. I was this ideal kid. But that early moment of exposure in my own story to pornography in a way that wasn't helpful but ended up being harmful, and there was a lot of shame associated that led to being then given an ipod Touch at 13. And it wasn't a locker room or my school where I began to pursue some of that, but behind closed doors and began to use masturbation as well as a coping mechanism, just thinking that sexuality was bad. So I couldn't talk about it. And unfortunately, at the time, my parents didn't seem to be the safest people. Now, what a gift Five years into recovery, they are really some of my safest people in a really beautiful way. And God restores and resurrects things all the time. But just to say that was my lived experience throughout most of my high school, was using pornography and masturbation as a coping mechanism, believing I was alone. And so when I got to that camp at 18 and somebody shared their story for the first time, it really broke that lie for me. I then went on to become very much more honest and vulnerable and open with others throughout college, believing that, like, we just got to talk about it. If we can talk about it, then we can pursue a path of healing. And it wasn't until I applied to become a crew missionary, shout out to Campus Crusade for Christ and even the interview process, because it was there that they're like, hey, you're not the guy helping people on your campus. You're a guy who needs help. And I'm like, no, I want to change the world. And then it was here that they said, no, what if God wants to change you? And I would just say, in his kindness, he gave me what I needed and not what I wanted, because my ability could have taken me to places that my character couldn't sustain. And God gave me a year in Dallas, Texas, going through an online Pure Desire group. My journey through the seven Pillars, very similar to your journey through Unraveled, where I began to make sense of my story, to share my secrets, to find so much hope and healing because I learned that I was as sick as my secrets for that I could be as honest as I was healthy. Me and my friend talk about all the time. We think one of the greatest gifts that Pure Desire has given us is simply the ability to be honestly honest. Like, I know that might seem like a weird phrase, but, like, we just had never been invited into that. The language we had before Pure Desire group was tripped, fell, stumbled. What does that mean? Had a bad week. Like, even that language is deceptive. Like, oh, that's the enemy's language, and he's deceiving people that they're being, like, honest. But it's like, you didn't fall, you didn't trip, you didn't stumble. Like, what does that mean? Even that language is still hiding.

If they knew all the details, then they'd be horrified. They'd reject me. They'd run away.

Yeah. And so just to say, like, even hearing that story of this, you know, Christian male on your campus that had this really abusive relationship with you, like, man, my heart is to invite so Many men and women who are young right now into a better, a kinder conversation about sexuality that they don't show up in harmful ways in relationship, but they show up in healthy ways, in honest ways, not secretive or shameful or silent ways. It's like, what if we could give the gift of health to again ourselves individually because our covenant with Christ is enough? Or potentially, if marriage is in the cards to a spouse one day, that it would be a gift and not a secretive addiction that blows up a marriage. Because that's unfortunately often the storyline. Yeah.

And that's what I love about this episode and what you guys are sharing is there were things God brought into your life, into your story, that motivated you to say, I don't want to wait. I want to deal with this. And there is even within a lot of church culture, kind of a permissiveness of, well, you're single and just, you know, minimizing. Is it that big of a deal? You know, when you're married, you'll figure it out. And then, you know, obviously in our ministry, people come to us married, and it's. It's really, really painful. And to change that narrative, say, you know what? You can be healthy before you get married. You can deal with this later. Young, we don't have to wait toward 35 or 45 or 55, yet at 19, and at 20, we can be like, I think there's a better way, and I think there's hope. And I think probably your story, even now for some listeners, like, oh, I've had too much permissiveness in my life just thinking, I'll wait till I'm married to deal with this.

Get healthy now. You are worth it.

Yeah. So in the process of seeing God bring new life and resurrection into your personal story, how would you say that has shaped your view of sexuality as a single person?

I would say looking past over my story, I definitely have pendulum swung through what Christopher west dubs the starvation die, which is like to deny or to quelch all desire. That is my upbringing and purity culture. I'll not be in the same room as another.

A lot of that's traditional Christianity, Evangelicalism.

Yes, yes. Modesty, culture. I will cover my shoulders when I go to the beach. Everything, like, I. I loved it. I was like the poster child for it because I thought that was the truest way to, like, glorify and honor Jesus. And so I was all about it. And then in college, when I started to kind of deconstruct some of those ideas and realizing that there wasn't a lot of solid ground to stand on. I kind of swung to that what. What Christopher west again calls, like, the fast food. It's like, okay, my life is about gratifying my desires, and I am the only one that can do that. And so reaching and grabbing for comfort through whatever was, like, right in front of me. And now I have been, thankfully, living in this in between of, like, learning from my past. Like, oh, purity culture got a lot wrong, but they were right that my body is not for me, that it is like a temple of the Holy Spirit and I am to steward it as such.

It's not just for a man, for.

Man who is for the Lord. It is for the Holy Spirit. And, like, learning from my college experiences of, like, oh, when I do reach out to gratify my immediate cravings of sexual desire and intimacy and comfort, like the world says is where the most abundant life is found, that that actually is only masking my hunger for something, like, deeper and truer and intimate, which is a good desire. Intimacy and marriage is a good desire and one to be wrestled with and brought before the Lord and trusted friends. And so I am learning every day that my sexuality and my body tell a story. And the story that I tell with my body is, like, not only for me, but, like, for the sake of the world. And where they see me, like, finding my hope fulfilled.

So good. What I love about that is, like, I do think there's such a pendulum swing that we can. We can find ourselves in of, like, the. The language of repression, of just don't do, don't look, don't touch, and if you do, don't tell. Right. Shame is just, like. Like, suffocating. And so you swing to that pendulum like, well, there must be a better story. But I love the language that you had used of, like, I'm now living into a third way.

Yeah.

Like, there is, like, there is tension to be held here. There is stewardship to be had. And just answer the question of how it's maybe, like, resurrected my own view of sexuality. I want to quote Kevin McAllister from Home Alone, who just says, I'm not afraid anymore. I'm not afraid anymore. I know we just got off of, you know, December is long past now, but what a classic movie. And I just. I remember watching that recently, just going like, wow. Like, that's been my story of sexuality. Like, I had lived with so much fear over this thing in my body. Like, my body was bad, my desire was bad. Like, my penis was bad. Like, my arousal was bad. All these things are bad. It's just like, whoa, breathe. This is a good gift, and this is God given, and he's not afraid of my sexuality. I remember chatting with a young adult just regarding stewardship, and him just talking about, you know, fleeing from sexual morality. Again, I'm not here to contradict what God's word says. I do think we should flee from sexual immorality. I just don't think all of our sexual desires are immorality. I think some of those could be held in tension and stewarding them with trusted friends and community. And again, that's confession, just naming what's really happening in your life. And it's in that place that we're no longer battling, but we're stewarding of saying, hey, God, all right, Right now, I desire to be known by this person, to be seen by this person, to have their affection or their approval or even maybe their physical touch, like of a hug or, you know, maybe one day thinking of, like, sexual intimacy. But that's not reality. That's not the covenant that I've assigned to this sister in Christ right now, or for Isabel standpoint, like this brother in Christ, will you help me live in reality? And I think that's the process of being really honestly honest, Beginning to name desire and to steward it, rather just from shutting it down, repressing it, running away. Emotions are bad. So I would just say I'm not afraid anymore.

It's where I think that food analogy is actually really helpful. And there's a lot of similarities between food addiction and sexual addiction or pornography addiction or any compulsive behavior in that at the end of the day, we are still people that have to eat. And at the end of the day, we are still people who were made in the image of God as a sexual being. And so. So if we're struggling with either of those things, the answer for food isn't that food is the enemy. And I hate food because of what it does to me. Now, there may be kinds of food or ways of eating it that are unhealthy and contributing to maybe a weight problem or other physical issues. But just as you were saying, Isabel, we have to figure out what is this healthy middle place, not of fasting or just going out for fast food that I consume in a way that is helpful. And so in sexuality, I think the challenge for so many has been, well, what does it look like to be a healthy. We know what I think we have better guardrails of what it means to be a healthy Consumer of food. What does it mean to be healthy in my sexuality? Because there is just that paradigm, like, well, if I'm not having sex, how do I be sexual and healthy? And it is, I think, coming back to what has God created in me that isn't just about the physical connection with another person, but the deeper things. And going to what you've said about my body's for Christ. I'm made for him. I'm in covenant relationship with him for life. So what does it look like that he gave me maleness or femaleness? That he gave me the capacity for desires and the desire for connection and belonging and being seen. Like, all of that, in a way, is connected to our sexuality and can be lived out, married or unmarried. And to recapture that, I think, again, is a big point of this podcast today. Yeah, so what in that regard, though, what does it look like to hold sexual integrity? Because we've all acknowledged there are things that we'd say this is outside the bounds of what God created us for. This is unholy as a behavior. And yet we see a culture that has maybe just adopted or embraced those as. That's just normal life. Hookup culture, the use of pornography and masturbation, casual relationships. You know, people think that, say things like friends with benefits, or it's just physical. We don't even really have a relationship. Instant gratification is the name of the game. And so many things we do. What does it look like to hold sexual integrity amidst all that?

My brain, just to continue the conversation that we're just having regarding what are we consuming? I think what we consume, again, whether that's food or even from the sense of this cultural input towards our sexuality is really important. I mean, my recovery journey has been marked by the removal of a lot of things. And sometimes we joke, you know, when Gia said, you know, cut off your. It'd be better to cut off your hand to make it into the kingdom of heaven, it's like, wait, did he mean, like, iPhone, like, pluck out your iPhone, Like, And I'm like, okay, that's kind of a funny thing. But I'm like, that's actually been some of my lived experience. Like, I think I have one of the smartest dumb phones. Like, I haven't had an Internet browser for over two plus years. And now some people are like, well, are you really healed? Are you really free? If you can't look in the face of temptation and say no? I'm like, well, I'm also doing the heart work. This is holistic. It's not just removing behaviors at my hand level. It is about thoughts and feelings at a head level and core beliefs at a heart level. And it is the reworking of all of those things that is the pathway of health. But at the same time, like, would we ever tell an alcoholic, unless you can go to a bar and sit in front of that, you know, glass of wine or that beer, you're not actually sober. It's like, like, no, an alcoholic isn't going to be going into a bar. Like, that's just a part of wisdom. That's wisdom. That's not fear. And so for me, mismanagement of my sexuality with an Internet browser on my phone had become a part of my story. So I no longer have that. And it has led to so much life and freedom. Like, I hope somebody hears this saying. Like, no, no, it actually wasn't worse. Like, actually I'm thriving in ways I never knew possible. Like, I'm not as distracted, I'm not as my phone as much. Or let's talk about social media. Like, I had all of them. I don't know how at some point our cultural narrative was, you need to have five social media platforms. That's crazy. But like, I couldn't have Snapchat anymore. That had become a place of powerless in my story. These conversations that were disappearing were not helping my integrity and were harming others. So I removed Snapchat. I couldn't have Twitter because the pornographic content that was so easily accessible. So I moved Twitter, I removed Instagram, I removed Facebook, and now the only social media I have is LinkedIn, which I don't even know if people are considering that social media, it feels much more workplace oriented.

But just to say you're seeing that as a healthy use, A healthy use.

And just to say what we're consuming matters. So how do we live with sexual integrity amidst this culture? I think we take radical steps to pursue Jesus. We inhabit the wilderness. It feels like the wilderness. Right, because not everybody's living like this. We live like prophets. And then we invite people to join us.

All right, which I think you bring up a good point, that to uphold sexual integrity, like, it does look different for everybody because everybody has a different story. And so what has been a doorway for you that you do need to be like a little bit more on your guard about blocking off? Like, that might not be the same thing for everybody. Absolutely. So like the journey to sexual integrity is like just insane self awareness of like knowing your story, knowing what the enemy has used before. And just being so intentional to close those doors and to cut off your right hand if you need to, for heaven.

Like, so I could experience heaven now?

Yes.

Oh, my gosh.

Integrity is also just reminding me of, like, oh, it's reminding yourself, especially in a world that compartmentalizes body, soul, and mind, to know that, no, we are like, one full integrated being. And so that means, like, what happens to my body does affect my soul, and it affects my mind and it affects everything. Like, the body keeps a score of psychology is like, realizing this more than I think the church is, like, wanting to admit. Then when someone hurts me or does something to my physical body, like, my soul, like, bears the consequences and we have some control in that matter. When we reach for our iPhone or when we go through dating apps. If, like, casual dating has been a part of our story. Not that that's bad. Like, if it's not a part of your story, then maybe it's a positive experience that you can have. For me, this looks a lot like inviting community into my story because a lot of my past experiences, I was siloed off, like, in shame hiding. And that's the first thing that the enemy wants me to do is even when I have a crush on a boy, it's just like, to keep that to myself. And so confession and community with my sweet friends Aubrey and Shel. Those are the two girls that if I have a crush on a guy or if I'm feeling lonely on a particular week, if I'm relapsing into masturbation, like, they know it all, like, nothing can be hidden from them, sometimes it looks a little bit more normal than that. Like, it could just be as easy as choosing a Friday night with your friends over Sabbath dinner rather than going out to the bars practicing fasting. For me, whether that's food or social media or clothing or anything that feels like I'm reaching for to gratify my flesh more than, like, the Lord, abstaining from that has been one of the biggest, like, exercises the Lord has used me in pursuing my own wholeness.

Yeah, I think fasting is so powerful to declare. You know, as Paul says in the New Testament, that I will not be mastered by anything. I'm not a slave to my body or my hunger, my desires. And yes, I have them, and they can even be God given. But I'm learning to control or manage, use them in a way that is God glorifying. And so sometimes it's the going without that allows us to see the Holy Spirit is greater than My hunger and.

Kind of going back to the fast food analogy is like when I'm so used to McDonald's french fries, a salad does not taste good to me. So you need to like remove what your body has been used to for the sake of acquiring a taste for better things, more nourishing and life giving things.

So true. I know in the Conquer series though I haven't watched all the way through it. Just honest confession. I know they talk about the difference between like having, you know, unadulterated sugar compared to like a strawberry. Like if you've been eating high fructose corn syrup and you know, all these different products and then you go to taste a strawberry. Well, that strawberry might taste sour, but your appetite has been conditioned to something that wasn't meant for it to be.

Yeah. It's what psychology calls a super normal stimuli. And our culture right now is full of that. That, that truly your brain can be overstimulated in a way that creation or God's design did not, does not do. And, and it's that question of that doesn't necessarily mean it's good. Yeah. Or it's healthy just because it's possible. So we can experience a flavor beyond what's in the natural world and we can experience a sexual high that is beyond what might be with one other person. But just like with foods, that doesn't mean it's good for us. And it's also, there's the law of diminishing returns that you might have that in a moment when you eat, you know, whatever food or have a sexual high because you were able to online go from scene to scene to scene to partner to partner to partner, which in real life, when it's one person like that is creating this super elevated dopamine hit. But then the next time it's not going to be as good. And the next time after that, and pretty soon that's where we become so numb that people are going into places they'd say, this used to detest me and now I'm longing for it. And they're feeling like, what's wrong with me? Well, it's the brain running after that high versus saying maybe. The issue is I've allowed the definition of healthy or normal to really get out of whack here. And I think too it's worth noting what you're both kind of talking about, that the more permissive our culture is, the more radical our behaviors will look.

Absolutely.

That doesn't mean they are that radical. It just means we live in a culture that the only question they're asking is, can we? And if we can do it, then it's like, go for it. When in our faith we should be saying, well, should we? Is this wise? And we're invited to use discernment. And so sometimes just being wise and discerning, like, like, I'm not going to be on my phone, in my room, on social media alone. That may look radical. It may only be radical because of how permissive our culture is. So maybe an encouragement to all of us, single or married, when we're pursuing recovery and health and integrity. Some of it in our culture may look pretty radical and crazy and we can feel guilt about, like, why do I have to do this? Because no one else does. Like, well, maybe it's because others really don't have a good definition of health healthy. And we could stand in a place of saying, my definition of health isn't coming from the world around me. It's coming from the Lord and his Word. And so to that end, we know that Jesus himself was a single person. And as someone who was fully human, we would believe was sexual. And so what can we learn from his life regarding how to steward desire that might help us today even though we are not Jesus?

Yeah, I mean, it's probably one of the first things that get said whenever the church actually talks about singleness, of just highlighting that Jesus was single himself and lived his entire life as a celibate man and lived the fullest, most abundant, most joyful life that was full of really sweet, intimate friendships and friendships with people of the opposite sex, which as a woman I really appreciate.

It's so helpful to acknowledge much of that. If we grew up in Western American culture, we are programmed to think individualistic and capitalistic, which capitalism is really that I'm a consumer and life is about acquiring things that are for me, that's our way of thinking that really contributes to, well, then sex must also be for me as an individual versus others. If you grew up in an Asian culture or African, that's not as prevalent. Some of their sexual struggles are rooted in other things. So this is where our story matters so much of what's the narrative? What have I come to believe about my singleness or my sexuality? And I've definitely heard men in groups who are single that will say something to the effect of, well, I'm not. I'm not really a man yet, or I'm not really getting to. There's this comparison of your life as a married person is better and richer than Mine. And I think to ask that question of, so are you suggesting that Jesus had a less fulfilling life than I am as a married man? Because I would have to disagree with that. Yes, our status is different. But I believe because of his Godhead perfection, just as you said, Isabel, he experienced every joy this world intended as God designed it, even if he didn't experience sex with a woman as part of that experience. And so for some of us in modern America, that's like, how does that even. That cannot even be possible. But I think we look at Scripture and say, no, it is, because that's what Jesus modeled.

Yeah, we're so lost in that cultural narrative that sex is God. And if sex is God, then dopamine and orgasm and fulfillment through that expression is the highest good. But it's not like Psalm 16 says that there is the fullness of joy and pleasures forevermore at his right hand. It doesn't say for married people, like, that is an invitation for all who are following and pursuing the covenant of relationship with God here and now. And ultimately one day, like, how beautiful is that? And like Jesus himself got to live into that and think. I. I think Pete Scazzero says it well as he talks about singleness in his emotionally Healthy Leadership book, where he says that we can live the most fulfilled and joyful lives right now, and there will always be something around the corner. Because I think as a single, it's like, well, I will be fulfilled when I'm married. But then when you get married, it's, well, I'll be fulfilled when we have kids. And then it's, well, I'll be fulfilled when they're off to college. And then, oh, I'll be fulfilled when I retire. Like, there's always another line, as you're saying, stop right now, today on this podcast, we can live the most fulfilled, joyful lives. Like I am. This is it. I'm living it. I'm not living, waiting. I'm not waiting anymore. I'm just living now. Like, Christ is with me. He's in me, and I'm in Him. And I get to experience the joy and the fulfillment of his pleasure as I operate in gifting and identity. Like, this is it. This is the moment.

Well, and to your point of, like, how cultural has. How culture has changed sex to be God, not only is sex God, but, like, it has also, because of the sexual revolution of the seventies, become a human right, that we have political parties, literally, like, standing for the right to have sex with whoever you choose.

Right?

And so for Us as Christians, to lay down what the world sees as like, a basic human right to have sex, like, to put it back in its proper place as. As an act of worship and union to God and with another person that is just like, profoundly different.

And Isabel, I'm curious as to how you've experienced as a single, because I know for me that as I pursued recovery, like, again, I thought that the fulfillment of my life was an orgasm, potentially as a single or as a married person. But I began to see that it was actually in giving my life away, which is what I think Christ did, right? He gathered a community of disciples in and around him. And what did he do? He gave his life away on their behalf, which he would call the highest fulfillment of love. To lay down your life for your friends, and in losing your life, you will find it. And I think as I began to lead group and walk along other side alongside other people in this journey, that's where I began to find life stewarding and, like, getting to show up and serve and love other people, like, that became the fulfillment of, like, you're not alone and we can do this together. So. So just to say, I think there's something significant there of service and what it looks like to surrender our lives to Christ and to follow him in the way of loving others sacrificially.

Yeah. I also feel like, for me, I struggled with the belief that Jesus actually was the satisfier of my desires. Like, these just seem so strong. And I literally had no imagination for the intimacy that I desired with another person to actually be fulfilled in Christ. And all the advice that married people give singles is like, oh, just like, pursue the Lord and you'll reach contentment and then you'll find a person. Finding the person, that's contingent. But the actual seeking Christ is, like, good advice because, like, the more you do that, the more that you actually just, like, pursue his face and his presence. Like, I have experienced intimacy beyond even what the church I grew up in, like, told me was possible. Just like, being known and knowing, like, the Father's love for me.

So, yeah, and as I think about heaven, and I'm going to get into some of my theology of heaven, so listener, if you see it a little differently, we can work that out later. But I really believe that sex is a temporary institution in our human experience, but will not be present in eternity. Because the value of sex is creating that oneness, knowing and being known, feeling an intimacy and connection that I believe in eternity with the absence of sin and fallenness and our traumas and pain, we will feel naturally with one another without the need for sex. I still believe I will know that my wife was my wife and we might have a special sense of bond, but we won't need sexual union because there will be such fulfillment, I think continually. So if that's the case, and I think most as they look at how God created sex for this world, they would view heaven in that lens, then it reminds us we are in a temporary human experience on this earth in our body that will far be outshadowed by the eternity we have in our heavenly bodies. And so in that regard, we are all going to be in that same state together. And I don't think anyone will look back and go, man, if only in those 90 years I was on earth, I could have had sex. Heaven would be so much better. Like eternity will not be diminished because you lack something in this momentary time. And that's just again a perspective that I think we lose a lot because our world is gearing us right now for the here and now, right now. What can I get get for me versus thinking what about all eternity where I won't regret that I quote unquote missed out because our world's so loudly tried? Well, you're missing out if you don't, and not only just not get to have sex, but if you don't experience all these different varieties of sex or the things that are out there. And so even married people can feel like, well, I'm missing out because my spouse isn't comfortable with that, or they're not as sexual as I want them to be. And so that's where I think married and singles can get into this place of. I'm missing out because I'm hearing in the world about all this sexual experience. No. Could we take a deep breath and view our sexuality through the lens of eternity? And what is God really trying to produce in all of us?

I'm still in need of seeing the fact that I'm a virgin is healthy. Like, I still feel less than. I still feel like I'm not enough. Like the narrative in high school was, until you have sex with a girl, like, you're not one of us. Like, you're not one of the dudes on the football team to the point where one of the guys like, hey, by the end of this football season, like, you need to lose your virginity. That was literally a conversation that happened. Or, you know, the movie the 40 Year Old Virgin. And like, there have been nights where I'm like, man, if I'm a 27 year old virgin or a 35 year old virgin or 45 or 55, like, does that diminish my value? And the reality is it doesn't. Like, what Isabelle is saying is this is about covenant. This is about my body being a temple of the living God and being in right relationship with him and not tying myself to somebody else who I'm not in covenant with. But again, the cultural narrative is if you're a virgin, you're bad, you're other, you're missing out, you're less than. It's like Jesus is still single 20, 25 years later and he's waiting for his bride. Like, this does end in a marriage. And it's not marriage between myself and a female. It is the marriage of the lamb. Like, it is the cr. It is Jesus being reunited with his church. Like, that's so beautiful. And Isabel and I's singleness gets to represent something that marriage can't represent right now. Because our singleness, I do think, is representative to your point about heaven, of what it will be like in heaven when we're no longer given in marriage to one another, but we are fully united with the person of Christ.

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Not only does not having sex this side of heaven not diminish the quality of life that I will live in eternity, but it does not diminish the quality of life that I live here now.

Yes.

And that is, is. Yeah. Just such a lie from culture, such a lie from church. And thinking about marriage, thinking about sex, that is always iconic in the sense of, like, sex is an image that we get to look through to see exactly the bridegroom coming for his bride. But you know what? My celibacy and my singleness is also iconic that I get to reflect that same wedding feast that is coming one day through my own, like, longing and desire and like good bridal preparation, like for my king to come.

So good.

Good for all eternity.

Yeah.

So I think an important part of this conversation that we want to have is not only helping us change our thinking or if we're, if we're single, embracing maybe a different paradigm there, but in a larger sense to talk about. What do we need to do in our faith communities and in our churches, because marriage is often celebrated as like the preferred state. And most of our ministry is two married couples and the singles are almost seen as a staging ground for marriage. So what could churches do to resurrect an understanding of singleness and provide support and community for singles? Helping Them feel included and valued in the body of Christ whether or not they ever get married.

Which is why I'm so glad Isabel's on this podcast because she literally works for a church and is overseeing like some of the young adult ministry, which kind of feels like a singles ministry at times.

Absolutely, uh huh. 100%. And as much as we've already talked about, oh, the church is not having this conversation enough. That is like so, so, so true. But I am super grateful that the church that I work at now, like, is unfortunately, sometimes it does seem that conversation is mostly just happening amongst the staff and amongst the pastors of like, how do we steward singles well, and how do we steward this conversation without it feeling like we're singling, pun intended, them out?

Yes, that's good.

And so I think, think what I am longing and hoping for is just like more stuff like this, more normalizing the conversation for the single woman entering her late 20s or her early 30s, or the divorcee or the person that is confused with their same sex attraction. Like knowing that the church is a safe space, that they don't actually have to have just a meeting with the pastor, that they can like talk to the people in their community group or they can talk to a friend and be met with grace and compassion. It can really just be as simple as I believe in. Hoping that the church just acts like the church. I'm reminded of recently, like a couple weeks ago, I just had a family from a church that lived in my neighborhood invite me over for dinner because they saw me on a walk. And it was just the simple act of this married couple with two younger children that just had me over for their normal weekday dinner. And I felt so seen and so loved and so brought in. And it was such a great gift to me just because I'm not surrounded by family. And so to get to sit at a table like that, I haven't done that probably since I've moved to Portland. And so it's just as easy as like the married couples, the elderly, the families, finding those who aren't surrounded by family and inviting them into their homes.

So good.

It's interesting. I think for most churches if they have a singles ministry, it's synonymous with single young adult ministry. And if you're showing up there because you're in college or your 20s and maybe up to your early 30s, like that's expected. But if you're the 45 year old single showing up, there's like this, why are you here? Like, are you creeping? Or you know and we just don't have a paradigm of, like, what it would be to be a lifelong single. And even if someone isn't aiming for that, I think what I see as I hear from singles and as I see what our culture is doing, the fear that they feel this ticking time clock of there comes, like, an expiration point where now it's not okay that I'm single. And I think the church has a huge role to play there to re. Like I said at the beginning, to recapture a vision of singleness that could actually be even a preferred spiritual state of being. So that when we meet someone who's 60 and they say, I'm single, our first thought is, I wonder what's wrong with you? Are you divorced? Your wife versus why wouldn't we just assume, like, wow, that is so amazing that that's what you've chosen. You've probably got a lot of understanding that I don't have because I got married in my 20s, and I don't understand life like you do at all. We just. We don't think that way, but maybe we should. Maybe there's a missing piece there. Yeah.

What comes to mind is I've actually seen a trend, especially in denominational churches, that they are removing their men and women ministries for the sake of seeking, like, a more mutualistic ministry. We're all together. Sunday gatherings are the men and women's ministry, but when that happens, the singles do get left out. And we have. Have families ministries, we have kids ministries, we have young adult ministries. But you're right, like, we don't have a singles ministry, and maybe we should.

Yeah. It makes me just think, like, your actions are speaking louder than your words. You know, like, you can say that you value singles, but to your point, like, when you are building these really beautiful, intentional spaces for specific demographics to show up in, but you're not building that for single. Come on. Like, we're now seeing a belief here and a pattern. Yeah. Unfortunately.

I really appreciate you for finishing my thoughts because I did have that in my notes. So thank you. That was an important part that I wanted to include. So thank you for making sure that gets included.

Yeah. I just had one more note to say, I think. I mean, if Paul's words are true, in 1 Corinthians, he is saying that singles, I think, could be some of the greatest change agents in the kingdom of God here and now, because they're not worried or distracted by a family or a spouse or a home, but they literally are free and available to show up in the beauty and the giftings and the strengths and the talents they have. And I'm just going, what if singles are one of the most untapped resources in the church? And I'm not saying they should be used. Using people is not what we should do. But inviting.

You're single, you're free.

Right.

You should watch the kids, childcare. No, no, no. I'm just saying, what if we invited them into more of who they already are? Like, what if they became the largest movement of. Of evangelists or hospitality or generosity? There's so many different ways they can participate in a church, but they're not necessarily being invited into that. Yeah.

I think it goes back to what you said, Isabel, about our view of virginity, that if being a virgin is just a holding place to give this gift to my future spouse and that's its only value, we miss all the ways a church could elevate that. Your virginity is also a gift to the Lord. It is first and foremost a gift to the Lord. Lord. And what does that open up in your life in terms of what you were saying, John? Your availability, your opportunities to connect, to serve, to go at where God leads without saying, well, can my wife and kids come, too? If I want to go do something for a weekend, there's a very tight system I have to go home to and say, okay, how would this work? And what about that kid? Where I think for many singles, like, there's an opportunity. I'm going to go do it. And you serve and you engage. Like, how do churches emphasize, like, how cool is that? We're so grateful and your virginity or your integrity, because you don't have to be a virgin to also be experiencing that value of your current singleness. But just to have churches talk about that more and celebrate that so that the person who's 25 or 45 or 65 and is single feels like, yeah, right on. I've got a lot that I bring here, and they see it and they want it and I'm invited in, I think that would just really make a big difference for so many that find themselves single for whatever reason.

That's a better story.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think one area in which we could be helped to think about where singles and sexuality interact is, in another word, kind of connected to that realm, and that would be sensuality. So how could we resurrect a healthy and honoring understanding of sensuality as single people? People. Yeah.

And just before we start here, just to say, I think Isabella and I both have similar experiences like this Was a bad word.

Absolutely. Yeah. Because it was tied to sexuality. Sexual, sensual.

To be sensual is to be sexual danger. Yeah. So just to start there by saying, if you're in the audience and you're listening and you're like, wait, is this okay to talk about this word? We think the same thing. And it was really through Jay Stringer's book Unwanted that I was really invited to rethink about this word. Right. Repentance is just the changing of my mind. Like, Jay Stringer invited me to repent, to change the way I think about this word. And I began to see that. Oh, like enjoying the smell of a candle, which is now kind of a joke in our friend group. Like, for my birthday, I came home and there was, like, hundreds of candles in my house because of another podcast episode that we had done about this. But, oh, my goodness, Nick, what is that doing? I have a community who sees me, who knows me, and who loves me. Me. That's the home I'm walking back into. That's a community of singles doing incredible things in the kingdom. But to go back to sensuality, just to say it's okay to enjoy the lighting of a candle, Like, I got a candle lighter for Christmas, a little electric one, because I like candles, and I have them around my house. And that's not a bad thing. Like, we can engage even as singles. Smell, sight, sound, taste, touch, all of these things. These aren't bad. These are good. But unfortunately, as a candidate gets so tied to sexuality, like, whether that sounds. That could be triggering me back to pornography that I've watched or something visually that could be triggering me back to sexual morality. Sometimes we curse our bodies because of the pain that we've experienced, which is why we have to tell a better story. We have to recast vision of what it looks like for Isabel to potentially read a book like, that's probably a really beautiful part of your story now, even if at one point that was attached to something that was painful, but even engaging your mind through the tangibility of holding and touching and reading a book like, that's probably a really beautiful part of your story.

Absolutely. And yet sensuality. The Lord is still redeeming that word for me. So a more helpful term is just embodiment. The Lord just reminded me and teaching me, especially this past year, that I am a body that needs to be cared for and tended to. And, like, the rewiring of my mind and my thoughts and my brokenness, like, does happen in my body. So the very practical things that help me stay Grounded is just walking. Walking is something that I have done for years to just ground myself and to just sit and to talk and to walk with the Lord and to pay attention to whether it's the warmth of the sun on my face or the wind. I grabbed a couple girlfriends this year to hit the gym with me. And so working out and getting the endorphins going is something that is, like, very, very help. I've even noticed a new desire to just, like, find embodied hobbies. So rather than, like, playing wordle on my phone, I've started to learn how to sew and to bake bread and just, like, finding ways that engage all of my mind, body, and soul together.

Beautiful. So well said.

Yeah, we want to see that if we ignore or avoid sensuality, which just means utilizing our senses, it's kind of going back to that fasting idea. Like, I just got to turn off all yeah versus say no. How has God made and wired me? And it's kind of crazy to me. This is an area which I think the world, in some ways, can be far ahead of the church, because ideas of, like, walking in the grass and smelling the flowers and taking deep breaths and meditate, like, we hear that all the time in worldly circles, like, taking care of yourself. But somehow in the church, we think of that as maybe floofy or not. You know, that's not real spiritual. It's like, man, this is the body God gave me in the world he created. And how is this connecting me to his creation and all of my senses? In a way that becomes the kind of thing that actually, I think many of us are looking for in our sexuality? It's to feel alive, to feel whole, to feel like things are exciting. What are the ways that happens in the world God created, even as single or married? So just reengaging sensuality, I think, is a window into. And it connects to this next question of, well, what does it look like to be a sexual being who maybe never has sex? Sensuality, I think, is a piece of that. But I wanted to give you guys a chance to talk to that as well, because I think some are maybe listening, going, hey, all this is great. Love the idea of you're made for God. But the reality is I still have a lot of sexual desire. And they're saying, I get aroused, I get triggered. And, like, if I'm single, if honoring God means ignoring that, like, that's the question I think many are asking is what does it look like, like, to hold on to that complexity of desires and Lust, even, and expectations when that desire will go unmet if we're not having sex.

Yeah, I would say honoring that does not mean to ignore those desires, but just to redirect them. And actually, while I was thinking about this question, I realized that I have had a practice of confessing my desires to the Lord for the past year now, and I didn't even realize it every morning. And every morning I say loosely, I'll sit down in silence for a few minutes and then I will journal about how I'm feeling and then what I'm desiring for that day. Whether it would be peace, whether it would be just to do well at work, whether it would be just resolution if I'm in, or if I know I'm going to have a hard conversation with someone that day. And then I will finally journal writing kind of a prayer to, like, submit and to surrender to the Lord all of my desires, all of my expectations, and trust myself, and trust myself again, like, fully to the Lord's care and his control. And that works for desiring rest when I didn't sleep well last night, but it also has, like, trained my brain to do that when I am desiring companionship. But when I am desiring intimacy and when I am desiring marriage and to be a wife one day and to be a mom, mom one day, it is like to sit in my feelings, whether that is discomfort or grief or despair or just frustration and confusion, and to ask the Lord to redirect that desire, like, back to him and to ask him to come in those very real moments as, like, the fulfiller of my desire and as like, the comforter of my soul. And then again, however, I'm still feeling after that to surrender and submit to him whatever he has for me that day being, be it most likely singleness for the rest of the day or one day, hopefully, still is my desire to be married and to experience again, just that glimpse of heaven in a marriage.

Yeah.

And Isabel, I think this is. I know we had talked about this just as we were preparing for this podcast. I think it's really unique. I don't know if we've had a single gal on the podcast before talking about this topic. Maybe we've had single gals before, but I don't know. This feels really unique. And I know that we had talked about specifically for a woman and like, the desire to be a mom, to be a mother as a single can be even more hard when there comes to, like, they're literally being a biological time clock. So could you could you speak to that of like how that, like what that feels like? Because for me there isn't like, well, I need to be married or to have a kid by this certain age. Like, I don't carry that in my body. But as an embodied female, there is like desire can also be attached to the sense of time.

Absolutely. Yeah. Part of me wants to kind of go back to Genesis because man was created and he was alone and it was not good. Woman is born into the earth and she's born into perfection. She's born into Eden. Like things are good. And so I think there is this innate desire that is just intrinsic in woman for relationship. And not that men don't have that either, but just women especially, like, oh, I will be a mom one day and I will be a wife one day. It almost feels a part of the, that is the social and cultural world that we grow up in, but part of that knit into our design. And as a integrated body, mind and soul. Being as a woman every month my body reminds me that this is what I was designed for, that I was created to be fruitful and to multiply. And again, my body tells me that as I get closer to 30 and 35 and 40, that there is something that is decaying within me, that there is a brokenness because of the fall that says I will no longer be able to be fruitful and multiply. And to wrestle with that desire is just like very real. And it's a desire that not only the, the married couple that's struggling with infertility experiences, but the, the 19 and the 25 and like the 30 year old woman that is not, that is not married yet and single and like wrestling. It's just like a very real and valid desire that can be brought before the Lord.

Yeah, I just think I'm really grateful again for your voice. Just like man, like that is so real when it comes to the single female again, whether that's 20, 30, 40, 60, 70, maybe even post that window per se of like, oh, like a real desire that potentially went unmet and like what do we do about this? So I think having the conversation is a great place to start.

Yeah, I feel invited to be a little bit more vulnerable on this one. Maybe might make the podcast, maybe not that of sort. Okay. But for me this also just hits home. Very much so right now for me and 8 to 15% of the female population that struggle with different reproductive issues like pcos. Like we are told by science that like it is right now currently impossible for you to have a child. And so something that I even, like, take comfort and even in my singleness and celibacy is like, like, oh, I am a descendant of Sarah and Hannah and Elizabeth, and I serve a God who, like, loves to open barren wombs and who, like, nothing is impossible for. And he can bring life even to the single woman who's in her 40s and, like, finally gets engaged and married. Like, nothing is truly impossible. That might not be a part of your story. And I wouldn't say, like, that is, like, the hope that I'm clinging to. Like, no, that's Jesus. But, like, it is also, like, a comfort to me that, like, oh, like, nothing is truly impossible for him.

Yeah.

I think it's saying that our hope is in the Lord, not in marriage or parenting or whatever else we might put hopes in. Like, for all of us. We're invited to redirect hope towards the ultimate source of all hope and comfort and goodness. And that's not easy. I think that's part of my answer to this question. There's not an easy answer. It's not just, like, we'll do this and it'll change. Because one of the things that comes to mind for me is in our current culture, I think there's a loud message that says, if I feel this, I am this. So that if I have a desire that says I have to have sex, that's just who I am. Like, that's this innate thing. Who am I or who are others to deny what I am versus the ability to look behind our desire and go, well, why do I desire that? Is it maybe the loneliness I feel right now? And because I am a sexual being with hormones, I've attached loneliness to the desire for sexual sex. But maybe ultimately under it, what's driving it is loneliness, not sexual need. And just being willing to ask our desires, like Jay Stringer does such a great job in that book of, what are you telling me? Where is this coming from? And just because I've got a desire that I'm fearing is going to go unmet, there's actually a real learning opportunity there that doesn't. Again, that doesn't create some magic answer. Oh, then that desire goes away. But I think it is an incredible part of how God can grow us and mature us into seeing, how did you create me? What have you designed me for? And when I feel desires, because we're all going to actually feel desires that can't be met, whether it's for sex or to have food or wealth or popularity. Like, there's things in this world that others we've seen. Oh, they get that now. I have a desire. I want that. And we're all going to have unmet desires. And so back to the question of what is the source of my unmet desires? And it's finding where in my life can that take me? Back to the Lord. Yeah. And what he wants to do. And it's not easy. And I. I really appreciate those that are wrestling with that and going, I'm single and I've got all these hormones, and. And I've been stuck in this lust loop, and I just wish I could get married because I think that would make it better. And you're telling me that maybe I never will. And that's really scary. It's like, man, I feel for you, because there's not an easy answer. But I hope today there's been a lot of encouragement about community and trusting in the Lord and understanding your story and. And seeing where is culture. Not listening to wisdom, but we can. And there's a lot of hope there. So, you guys, this has been, I think, an amazing conversation. And as we get ready to wrap up, what kind of encouragement would you like to leave a single person with who is listening today?

Yeah, honestly, just in continuing on that note, I think it's connecting for me maybe right now, for the first time, that my sexual desire and the stewarding of that actually points me back to Christ. Come on. Like. Like, I'm just imagining. I love that language, the lust loop. Let's just say, you know, somebody in the audience is finding themselves stuck in that. What do I do? What do I do? I think the tool of Brace, which was really my, like, escape plan, my help. I'm tempted. I need, you know, to, like, flee from sexual morality. It's really beautiful. It's just connecting with me that that plan actually puts me back in right relationship with God and others, which is the fulfillment. Marriage is not the fulfillment. Marriage is a good thing. I'm not trying to speak less of it. But marriage is not ultimately the fulfillment. Not for you, Nick, and not for me or Isabella. Singles. So when I'm tempted or I'm now facing that real desire and I breathe, taking oxygen from my limbic system to my prefrontal cortex to think rationally. I'm now remembering truth. And for me, I QUOTE Psalm 23 because I love the way it starts. The Lord is my shepherd. There is nothing I want. Lust says, I want great things. And right there I'm reminded, know that God is The highest good, the highest fulfillment, the highest form of my satisfaction. This is where my desire can be directed. And then it goes on to talk about sheep in a pasture who aren't eating grass or laying by water they're not drinking, why they're satisfied, they're with their shepherd and that he's with them in the darkest valley and preparing a table before them, even in the presence of their enemies or temptation, whatever that might be, and that we can be with him and experience his goodness and his mercy. All the days of my life, even my desire right now that's being unmet is actually putting me back into dependence and need and relationship with God. But it doesn't end there. Because then in asking him for help, that's the next step. I then end up calling a friend. And now it's putting me back into right relationship with brothers and sisters in Christ, saying, hey, like, I'm tempted right now to use pornography, masturbation, or fantasy. But I know that I'm not somebody who uses people in real life. And I don't want to be someone who uses people mentally. Can you help remind me of who I am, am. And you know what that is? That's risk. And you know what risk does? Risk leads to dopamine. It, it, it leads to this potential uncertain answer, which is actually how we then get that reward hormone. Like, I'm actually now getting the dopamine that the, the enemy told me that I will only ever get in the orgasm high. I'm now getting it in right relationship with God and others. And so I just say, for the single person, you are not alone. You are worthy of love, and you have a story that matters and is worth telling. And the first step that you could take today, maybe you're on the fence. Maybe you've been listening for a while and you're like, I don't know if this is really for me. I would just pray God, who do you want me to begin being really honest with? And how might that step of honesty lead me to health that I didn't think possible? Again, we are as sick as our secrets, and we can be as healthy as we are honest with those around us.

Us.

Yeah.

Amen.

Yeah. I believe it's Viktor Frankl that says, when pleasure is an end in and of itself, it is rarely pleasurable. And I think that is like the definition of lust. It is to make anything but the Lord an end in and of itself. And so it's strange that even in the church we can lust after marriage. And I think an encouragement that I have have taken for myself. It's just the fact that as you said, Nick, earlier, marriage is hard. There is still unmet expectation and desire even within marriage. And singleness is hard, as most of us know. And so the fact that marriage will not satisfy my internal ache and strangely, somehow it may even magnify it. But to know that that desire is still good and it is still beautiful and it is still a prophetic window into the wedding feast that we will one day all sit before experience with Jesus himself. But so is my singleness a picture of that same thing. And I wish that someone would have told me that there's like so much beauty and so much honor and like in this very season of my life, not marriage, not what's coming down the road, not what's next, but like right here, right now, my life can be a living prophecy.

And yeah, yeah, it's beautiful and just as high. Say even in singleness, like, you are not less than.

That's true.

Like, you are enough. Like the Christ in you and you and him. Like, you have all that you need and I have all that I need. Like, we're not less than. We can live. We can live now.

Yeah, yeah. So good. You know, and the series, we're talking about the resurrection. And really it is the resurrection of Christ that opens the door to that eternal banquet and to life in him. And so we believe that his resurrection brings new life to our sexuality, to our singleness. And I think today's conversation really highlights a better narrative that we could begin to write. Whether we're a single ourselves or we're a part of a faith community, a group, a church that says, man, we want to do better for our singles, to understand themselves as sexual and really for all of us. So, John, Isabel, thank you so much for joining today. I really loved our conversation. Thanks.

Thanks, Nick.

Yeah. And thank you, our listener, for being a part of today. And if you are a fan of this content, please subscribe, Share it with somebody. Give us a review, give us a thumbs up, up. All of those are ways that other people can hear this life changing content. And if you want more information about Pure Desire, groups, resources or counseling, Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.