408 - Resurrecting Biblical Sexuality

Foreign hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 408 and here joining me as my co host throughout the series is Mr. John Beguman. Mr. John, welcome back and thanks, man. Stoked to be here, man. I was all ready for like, you know, some kind of intro and I will, you know, a little bit of behind the curtains here for our listeners. We are actually recording episode five of five in this resurrection series before we do 1, 2, 3 and 4. So I don't know if in episodes one through four you're going to do like witty greetings or sing for me, but now today you caught me off guard because it was just like so.

Normal, just general, just plain, plain for today.

Hey, that works. How you been doing, John? You had a good week?

Good week. Yeah, it's, it's fun to talk about things like this. I think there are conversations like this where I'm like, man, I just so hope that so many more people in local places and communities, churches, small groups get to have this level of conversation. I'm like, this is what we were built for. This is it.

Yeah. Throughout this series we've been talking about the theme of resurrection and what are the where, the places where we need to see new life in maybe places where there's been a lot of hurt or destruction or even death. Death of a relationship, death of a dream. And I, I think that's very true in this area of biblical sexuality. For many people that's almost like an oxymoron, a bib, like, can we even talk about that? Is there sexuality in the Bible? What do you mean? And I think today was just a really life giving conversation about what do we mean when we say biblical sexuality and how can we resurrect the goodness of that conversation?

Yeah, I think what I really appreciate about this conversation was not only did we address marriage, but we also talk a lot about singleness. And I don't know if that's just because I was on here. I know that was one of the questions, but it was just a really fun conversation of what does this look like in marriage or for the unmarried? Again, whether that's post divorce or post death or even pre marriage for the single.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's one of the themes of this episode is that sexuality doesn't just mean sex in marriage. What does it mean to be a sexual being and made in the image of God as such. And so we really get into that topic. I will let our listeners know. We had a fairly lengthy conversation in the middle here about masturbation. And there are differing ideas that people have around that topic. And some of what you hear today might trigger you a little or make you feel like, well, wait a minute, I'm not sure. And I would encourage you to think for yourself, to think about what you believe scripture says. And if some of our opinions or ideas or what Rodney shares doesn't align perfectly with how you see it, we're okay with that. I hope the value is in this podcast and really throughout all the podcasts that we do here at Pure Desire, it's to wrestle with conversations that really we should have been having all along, but most of us never got to have. And maybe that's also a theme of this episode on biblical sexuality is we're just trying to have some of that conversation so that we can grow and learn and do it together. So for that part of the episode, put your thinking cap on. If you don't agree with us at the end, we understand. But I think it will challenge you to consider what does it mean to be a sexual being made in the image of God and to navigate that in a very sexually broken world. So we're excited for you to hear this conversation. Rodney Wright is a part of our staff here. He's a pastor, he's an author. He and his wife Tracy co wrote the book how to talk with your kids about sex, which you can find at our website. And also the featured voices on our new series, the parent training course, how to have conversations with your kids about sex. And I would encourage you to check out both of those resources. And so here today is our conversation with Mr. Rodney Wright on resurrecting biblical sexuality. Mr. Rodney Wright, welcome back to the podcast. Good to see you, my friend.

Great to be on today with you and John, two of my PD favorites.

Glad to be with you guys. Yes, well, we appreciate that. And we are excited today to be wrapping up our series on the resurrection and bringing new life to conversations that for many of us have been very difficult or challenging ones. And I think nowhere is that more true, perhaps in this area than in this area of biblical sexuality. And so we want to dive into why that matters so much, why it's so important. And so let's just start there. Rodney, can you remind our listeners about what your role is on the Pure Desire team and why you have a passion for talking about biblical Sexuality.

Well, my role on the team is I joined the board seven years ago, and then I hired myself at PD because I couldn't make the interview process, which means I raised my own support and kind of became an ambassador for Pure Desire. It was such a privilege and a calling to do that. And Tracy joined me six years ago. And then recently I've transitioned as an ambassador, but working in development with John. And that's been such an honor with our donors. And we still obviously are advocates of the parent training, and we'll speak in churches and try to be a voice wherever we can to help the organization. Just love the cause and love what we're about, trying to create something healthier for generations to follow.

I agree. It's such a gift to work with you, Rodney. I think I get to tell people all the time, I'm like, you would think that supervising somebody older than you would be weird, but I'm like, I think I just got like a built in mentor. Like somehow the gift of our relationship has been tremendous to me. And I know there are ways in which, whether it's technology that I get to come alongside you or there's ways in which wisdom that you get to come alongside me. So thanks for being a part of the team. It has been so critical, but there are many ways.

You and Nick helped me both, so I appreciate it.

Our series, Rodney, is on the resurrection and bringing new life to these conversations. Why is the conversation on biblical sexuality dead in many churches? Why aren't we talking about this more?

Well, I really love this whole theme of resurrection. When we think about the life, death and resurrection of Christ, about taking, moving from something that has died into something that's life giving. We see death and resurrection all in. And I think within the Christian church, we realize that the conversations that we've tried to have or haven't had about human sexuality haven't really led us to a lot of transformation in this arena in our faith communities. And so it's okay because it's a part of life, right? We try something and it doesn't work. And then we look for the next thing to step into. And I think that what I sense the Holy Spirit is doing in my life and in the communities of faith that I'm around is just creating something new, is growing about a healthier conversation on human sexuality. And the reason why is because I think many men and women, many of us that are older in age, what I would call tribal elders, you know, gray hair, no hair, you color your hair once a month, tribal Elders, my standard joke there. But we've owned our negative history around human sexuality, and now we're having the courage to step in and offer something different and something healthy around human sexuality. And I love, too, because I think there's a younger generation that's so hungry for this, and they want to see authenticity. They want someone to show us the better way of how to manage our sexuality, see our sexuality as good, not just as lust and evil and bad, but to embrace it is good and healthy. We're made in God's image, and this is good. And yet how to now steward it in healthy ways? Because we believe that Jesus, that our faith is calling us to be, you know, filled with honor, dignity, and respect for self and others in all areas of our life, including our sexuality. So I think it's wonderful that what is being resurrected in the church through pure desire and a number of different therapeutic voices ministries is a different conversation around this subject of healthy sexuality. And I couldn't be more grateful just to be a piece of this movement that God's doing in the body of Christ and to see where it goes in the future. We just get to be a piece of that. And I think it's pretty thrilling.

Yeah. It seems to me this is an area where we have thrown the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. That because it is personal, it can be awkward. There are pieces of our story that are messy or sinful or abusive. And because we haven't often learned how to talk about it, then we just don't. And so often we communicate more by our silence than by what we do say. And when there is silence around a topic, I think people assume that maybe God or the Bible really have nothing to say about it. And so we've seen, I think, culturally, where sexuality has unfortunately been more in the realm of. Well, kids learn about that in their school system or that's the realm of this world. Whereas God, he deals with our spiritual selves and prayer and the church and some others. This very artificial disconnect that I think in today's conversation, we're trying to reconnect and say, no, God is the God of sexuality. And, yes, there are parts of this where we need to be thoughtful and wise about how we discuss it. You know, what we say to who. There are pieces of our story or things that have happened that are private and best not just brought into a church, small group or brought up Sunday morning. But that doesn't mean we say nothing at all or act like the Bible is silent on it. And I think that's what we're trying to do today is underscore how much God has to say about us as sexual beings, because it was his idea all along. And we want to recapture some of the joy and goodness around that conversation. Yeah.

Sunday morning is in a traditional church setting. It's not the context for every discussion, but it should be a place where we can point people to really good, healthy discussions. Biblical healthy. Those terms are kind of synonymous with me around this topic and where we can shut the door and it's the right people that are in the room and age appropriate setting where we can really just have a wonderful conversation around healthy human sexuality.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So as we launch into this topic, Rodney, for many people when they think about sexuality, what comes to mind maybe from their Christian upbringing is that, well, sex is for marriage, right? Like that is biblical sexuality. What more is there to it? So for those that might be stuck in a little bit of that mindset, what more are we talking about when we think of biblical sexuality in a more holistic manner? How would you describe that?

Well, I was one of those. I just thought sex and marriage and therefore if I had a sex problem, I would just get married and marriage would fix it. And it wasn't the case for me. It just revealed more of, I've got a deeper issue. But when we talk about sexuality, we're talking about our maleness and our femaleness. We're talking about how we think about human sexuality, how we have sexual feelings, how we have sexual thinking, we have arousal and we have a desire of connection. And it's much more holistic in just its view, rather than just. It's just intercourse. We can't make sexuality just intercourse. It's much more of a holistic piece of the most intimate part of our life. And just looking at it, that this is a gift we're given when we're young. And I say this sometimes because my sister is a labor and delivery nurse. But a little baby girl can vaginally lubricate in the first 24 hours of birth she's made as a sexual being. And a little boy can have an erection in the first five minutes. So we see this awareness of our sexuality not as a curse of sin, but as a physical body of how God has made us. But we never now get conversation age appropriate on how to steward manage this. And we never get big signs that say better way this way, you know. And so this is what pure desire and a lot of other organizations are trying to do is just Embrace that this is good. And then, and then give us some guidance on the better way.

Say, Rodney, I'll never forget the call that we had early on in my employment here at Pure Desire where I was sharing just probably a faster scale check in regarding some fantasy or some sexual desire that I had. And I was naming it very honestly to you, and I just remember you leaning in. I know exactly where I was. I was on the sidewalk outside of my apartment taking a walk. And through my headphones, Rodney's voice says, john, the next time you're sexually aroused, thank God for the ability.

And I'm like, wow, what?

Like I can't thank God for this ability.

Like been trying to hide from God.

Exactly. Because the narrative that I had was that all of my sexual feelings were bad, evil or lust. I didn't have a framework that this is a good God given thing that needs to be stewarded. I just had that understanding. And again, I'm not trying to counter predict what the Bible says regarding flee sexual morality, but to your point, Rodney, not all sexual desire is immorality. That we can have an honest, like real desire for a relationship with a male or female that we don't have to demonize, that we can be really honest, we can name, we can process through. Like, we don't have to cope in addiction, but we can process in health. And so that conversation is just so reframing for me of like, oh, like maybe I'm not bad and maybe I'm not evil and maybe I have something really good that God's given me that he's inviting me to steward and not to mismanage. And so much of my story, because this conversation was so silent in the church, revolved around mismanagement of my sexuality using pornography and masturbation behind closed doors and isolation and secrecy. But that moment was a paradigm kick for me. Like, oh my goodness, I can name this with somebody else. And they're not afraid of me. And in fact, like, they're inviting me into gratitude for God. You made my body good. Right? Psalm 139. Like I've been fearfully and wonderfully made and he knit me together like Jeremiah talks about in my mother's womb. And God's not afraid of my erection or he's not afraid of my arousal. He's not afraid of my desire. No, he built it. And now we get to steward it. Just like we would any other gift in our life. We're invited to steward desire.

Yeah. The paradigm shift for me, I think came in asking the question Do I believe that I am more a sexual being than Jesus was? Because Jesus was never married. And so there can be an assumption like, well, just because I've been married and had sex, I'm more sexual. It's like, well, that seems like a pretty flawed understanding of God's creation and design of us if I think I'm even more sexual than he was when he was in a human body. And so to think through what that means, certainly my sexuality has been shaped and formed by sin and brokenness in a way that Jesus wasn't. But that I think invites the question of what is the purpose of my sexuality beyond just one day getting married? And I realize a little bit of this is convenient for me and Rodney to say as married people, but to look into, like, there were unique, wonderful aspects about sexuality in Jesus that reveal God's design and goodness and all the saints throughout history that were never married, that encompasses sexuality. And I think that should be a conversation we're having more is how do I bring godly sexuality into marriage and as a context then to live it out, But I don't become more sexual when I say I do at the altar. I'm just bringing. And unfortunately in my story, as in for many of our listeners, I brought a whole lot of baggage in that story because I hadn't addressed the ways in which I was sexual outside of marriage and what did it mean to live in God's goodness and in God's created order within that. So I hope that some of what people wrestle with is like, what does it really mean to be sexual? And it's not just I've had sex, that there's much more to how God designed us.

Yeah. And I love where we're inching to someday maybe a podcast just on Jesus and sexuality. And just as a, as a junior high boy, as a five year old, you know, waking up from his first nocturnally mission and saying to Joseph, hey, could you give me some framework here? You know what just happened last night, Right?

Some stories of Jesus. We'd sure love to know, right? What happened.

Like, even me saying that sounds sacrilegious, like, oh my gosh, not my Jesus, you know what I mean? Like, and, and Nick, even though he was without sin, he entered our flesh.

He was fully human.

He was completely human, entered our condition, you know, but his fabric wasn't torn. He stayed connected and resisted, and yet he was still sexual. So that's such a beautiful conversation just to wrestle with and to process. You know, for some reason I was just thinking About Dan Allender, if you guys know that individual, I remember he shared a story one time when his little grandson, you know, was just a little kid and discovered what an erection was. And he was like, yay, this is amazing. You know, just that celebratory piece of how your body works is good. And now we're going to move towards stewardship of that. And I think that's where a lot of us never got. It's good. And the stewardship piece, we never got a pathway and a framework or steps to begin to take. Or other than just, these are dangerous, stay away. We did get some of those, so let's not say we didn't get anything. We did get some danger steps, but we weren't able to make the connection. We weren't able to see how dopamine and how sexuality integrates with us in a physiological way and how our traumas affect this and life affects it. And sometimes we're just using sex, something.

Good in a wrong way that leans in so well just to where we're going to continue the conversation of how does the church balance this, call this invitation to holiness in the realm of our sexuality, while also being compassionate to the amount of sexual brokenness that people are carrying into that conversation? So how do you balance that? How do you balance, hey, the invitation is the sexual holiness, and yet there is so much sexual brokenness sitting in the pews.

Healing and education. Just two simple words that I would say. So for those of us who've maybe been sexually abused, for those of us who have, our trauma has led us to misuse sexuality in addictive ways. For those of us who found ourselves really struggling in human sexuality, the more we can lean in and do our inner work to find healing from our. Not only our behavior, but even from the shame that comes from those memories. And then owning our story, integrating it and who we are, it doesn't define us. It's just a part of our life. And then education, I think taking that now and becoming an educator of here's pitfalls, but here's a better way to move forward in this way. So if churches can start, in my opinion, holistically from here's what's good, let's educate you mom and dad adults, single or married adults, let's educate you and give you a framework on good, healthy sexuality, then I think that can be a better way to start as well. As if you've owned your own story and you've been through betrayal, you've got compassion for the betrayed partner sitting in the Audience, if you've been through addiction, you've got compassion. You're wanting to offer hope and help to somebody, not shame. If you've been the individual that's had an affair, you're not trying to condemn somebody. You're trying to offer them a hand up, not point a finger of accusation. But you're saying, if you're a healthy leader, man, I'm so sorry. Let me walk with you. Let me show you a better way. And so there's that sense of not wanting to compromise, but it's all about being compassionate and then just turning toward education and not being afraid to integrate sexual language with our faith in ways that aren't derogatory but that are healthy, that are educational, that we can actually just laugh about in some ways as we work on just communicating that in a healthy context.

Yeah, Rodney, you use the word education, and I would think of the words like maturing or discipleship. And so often when it comes to sexuality in, let's be honest, in our church, in our Christian homes, much like I would say in my family, sexuality was primarily in the realm of morality and willpower. You know, it's right or wrong, and don't. If it's wrong, don't do it. And yet I think about growth and maturity. Like when my children were learning to walk, if they fell down, I didn't treat it like a moral issue of, like, shame on you. Why are you falling? Don't do that anymore. I understood inherently as a parent that in human development, they needed to learn to walk and to do that well. And some of that was on me as a parent to help them be a part of their development. And I'm not suggesting that, you know, some of our sexual issues don't have a moral component because there are things that we would say are right and wrong. There are things we would define as sin and things that are holiness. But if we could see people's growth being more about how do we help one another mature out of a way of doing things that was more immature, then I think we have compassion. I mean, we still have a holiness standard. We can say, this is, as you said, Rodney, the giant arrow that says, this is the better way that God created us for, and here's why, and let me walk alongside of you to learn this better way along with you. And in community versus feeling like, well, this is just a moral issue. Do the right thing and don't do the wrong thing, because then it does become a shame issue where if I'm doing the wrong thing, And I'm messing up and I'm trying my best to do the right thing, but I can't seem to do it. Then I internalize it to say, well, there's something wrong with me because I've been told this is a moral willpower problem. So when I'm going astray, I have no choice but to kind of hide behind my issues versus if I'm hearing people talk about it like a maturing and an area of discipleship, there's more freedom there to come and say, you know what? I need help maturing in this area. Can you show me what that looks like? And I think that's some language that could help us just change the narrative there.

And that focuses on growth, not perfection. Nick, you know, like you're saying, and it was 28 years ago, Nick. That's the very language my therapist used to me. Rod, basically, you're very immature in this part of your life. I'm going to help you mature. That was his language and it was kind of offensive to me because I thought I was deeply spiritual and immature sounded unspiritual. And it was true. I had part of my life that was deeply flawed and deeply immature because I never had anybody walk with me to know how to grow in this area. And it didn't feel safe. And the people that I did confess with were good people, my brother, my dad, good hearted people. But they just didn't have a. They weren't competent in knowing how to help me mature in this other. In this other way of my sexuality.

When I think of the word compassion, I think of how much of my life my upbringing was really marked by judgment or shame or condemnation. And those feel to me to be like the opposite of compassion of like, stop it, try harder. You know those typical messages, I think for me as I've engaged the journey of recovery personally and then gotten to walk alongside other people in that process. I love the question of how does this make sense or why does this make sense? Like that seems to be such a compassionate question that I don't think many churches or church leaders are always equipped to ask. And that's not on them, to your point, Rodney, like they haven't been educated. That's not me to shame them. But just to say not many of us were given that paradigm of why does this make sense?

Starting with curiosity.

Curiosity, exactly. And I think to quote Dan Ellender again, he says that there is no greater pain than bearing the weight of an untold stories. And when I think of sexual brokenness in the church or in our world at large. I think of all the untold stories that have informed the brokenness that they have either experienced to them, right, abuse or harm or that they then have participated in. And man, that breaks my heart. Rodney, you and I both know that we would hug anybody and everybody and just say, oh my goodness, you're not alone, you are worthy of love. You have a story that matters and it's worth telling. And there is so much understanding to be made of your story, even if you're lost in it right now.

Well, isn't that the truth that all three of us are leading groups and have led groups and worked with a number of others in this area and we get to hear people's whole story where we invite them to go back. Where did it start? Where were you first exposed? Where did sexuality, where did sexual brokenness come into your life? And I know that 100% of the time the stories we hear involve something someone else did. Whether we got exposed to pornography or shown something or it was abusive or there was childhood curiosity, I've yet to hear a story of someone saying, well, I just had a wicked little heart and I was just so desperately looking for pornography or to abuse someone. Every single story starts with I was at a friend's house or I found something or this came up. And as you say, John, when we tell that whole story and we train people to see the narrative, then where they're at currently is like, oh, I get it, this makes a whole lot of sense. But we're guilty of just kind of focusing on the moment in time and saying, well, why did you do this? This is again back to the morality piece that was bad, don't do that. But if we don't know the whole story, then we're really not equipped to enter and engage with the growth that needs to happen.

You know, John and Nick, in January, Tracy and I were in Fort Myers, Florida and on a Sunday night we had 80 that gathered outside of the Sunday gathering. And they came and we talked a little bit about churches starting SI101, which is sexual integrity 101, the education piece. And then we talked a little bit about the parent training that's come out. But we had this 70 some year old gal stand up, she's single. And she said in her tears during the question response time, she said, I was abused as a young person and I kept silent for almost 50 years and it robbed 50 years of my life and my marriage. And I can't thank, you know, this organization, these people that are here for pushing these conversations and giving us a place where if we need help, we can go get it and we can have a healthier dialogue about this subject matter. And I want to say to all.

You young kids here, she was saying.

You know, which was 50 and below, you know, all you young kids here, go get help. What they're saying is so true. There's good, healthy people there. And unfortunately, within the Christian framework, church hasn't always been the safest place, and people haven't always known what to do. And so I'm grateful that our churches are becoming much more compassionate filled and they're getting better resources to know how to help men and women in this area. And pure desire and other voices are helping that in beautiful ways. So grateful for that.

Yeah. Well, Rodney, marriage is a part of sexuality for so many people. It has a role to play. And so let's talk about that. Of what role does marriage play in a biblical view of sexuality? And how can we encourage people into a deeper understanding of marriage as a sacred covenant and not just a place where they get to have sex? Because now it's okay.

You know, when I got married at 21 and Tracy was 19, you guys, I thought I was a love expert.

I really thought, you know, I'm sure you were, Rodney.

Sure, I'm a love expert. Boy, was I wrong.

You are an expert on many things. It's true.

Yes, there was a lot I needed to learn about love and about human sexuality. And, you know, as you grow and mature, even in your sexual relationship with your partner, over time, you realize that it's. It's. It's way more than just sex. It's about connecting with the heart of the person. It's about learning to be mature, which is about to honor the person. Not just in your words or in your actions, but even in sexuality. How do we bring honor? How do we bring pleasure? How do we make this a meaningful experience for both parties involved? And it can look different. And so, you know, I think just being able to communicate this is what I would say to any individuals that are moving toward marriage. The better you can articulate about your own sexual journey. But even about how you just talk about human sexuality, how you talk about your sexual connection with each other, the frequency about what brings pleasure to you, what you're uncomfortable with, how was that experience? Just articulation of this is our world that we're building together, just like in anything else, just like in money. The more you can communicate about money where it doesn't become Conflict, it just becomes about, oh, we're getting on the same page. We're having the same focus, the same energy. We're having a beautiful shared experience with money. Sexuality can be that same thing too, if you have a good framework to take into it. Is this working for both of us? Are we communicating about it? Are we, are we staying within the framework that's healthy for us as a covenant relationship? And again, it's not just surviving or you get to. It should be that you want to and that you're, you're, you're, you're bringing meaning, purpose and joy to one another. And it's not that every sexual experience is always on a scale of 1 to 10, we're not saying it's always going to be a 10 in marriage, but it never fall. It never becomes a negative experience. Right. And this is what I love about Cliff and Joyce Pinner in marriage. They talk about it never letting it go beyond something that's negative for either partner, but it's just about something that's meaningful, or we're just doing it out of care for Tracy or care for Rodney, or it's higher on the scale that time. So this is really important, just about our communication. And that's what I think really enforces the covenant. And for me, you know, whenever I am sexually aroused and at 57, it changes. John, I know you're 27, I'm 57, so I'm just going to tell you, arousal changes. But as I grew in my recovery, whenever I felt arousal triggered by anything, I would realize, oh, that's something maybe negative if I take it this way. And God has encouraged me to take it this way because I was married. It's the scripture in Romans, clothe yourself with the Lord Jesus Christ and do not think about fulfilling the lust of your youthful desire. And so as a young man, I really realized, oh, I'm aware of this, but my covenant is the place where I get to connect that and would redirect that to a healthy context. And I think this is where it's so important to be self aware and be working in your relationship, that what you're building is meaningful for both of you and not just out of obligation or out of somehow. This is what we have to do because we're Christians. But I think covenant relationship is the better way, and I choose that.

Yeah, I think it's important to recognize that marriage, if I'm married, is the current context in which I'm learning to exercise godly biblical sexuality. But it is not the whole of my sexuality. And that's important for Rodney and I to remember as married guys, because there is a better than 50% chance that one day we will be single again. We could have spouses who leave or a marriage that ends in divorce, and Lord willing, that never happens. But there is a 50, 50 shot that our spouse dies first. And so for a majority of us listening, even if we're married, we may be single again. And at that moment, we don't cease to be sexual. We're now going to exercise our biblical sexuality in a new context. And so I think to kind of see God's creation of sexuality in our bodies beyond the marriage, not outside of beyond the marriage context, but looking at how in this current context is God inviting me to discover more of myself, more of him, more of what relationship looks like, and to enter into that self serving, other centered way of love that Jesus gave to us that now gives some meaning to what I'm doing and not just, well, how good is our sex life? Because I think that is what sometimes couples can fall back to is just, well, that's how we define healthy sexuality in our marriage. Just how good or how frequent is the sex? And I would advocate, say it is important to have a healthy sex life in your marriage, but that is not the whole context of sexuality in your marriage or for you as a human being. So just keeping kind of that bigger context on what it means to be sexual, even if I'm married, I think will help all of us continue to learn and develop and grow in this area.

I know that I don't have, you know, a lot of lived experience in marriage. In fact, I have none as a single. But just to say, I think I'd love to highlight maybe two or three things of like, porn had trained me that marriage was about my pleasure, about male pleasure, and about like, the satisfaction of me and the objectification of women.

Getting my needs met.

My needs met. And I think, what's so beautiful, Julie Slattery at the Summit just a couple years back. Oh, my goodness. If you guys haven't listened to it, please go back, find this session. I'm gonna try to like reiterate it a little bit here. But she got up there and she began reading from First Corinthians 13 saying, Love is patient in the bedroom. And she'd have the crowd recite, in the bedroom, love is kind in the bedroom. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud in the bedroom. It does not dishonor others to your language, Rodney. Of honor, integrity, respect. It is not self seeking in the bedroom, it is not easily angered in the bedroom. It keeps no record of wrongs in the bedroom. Like she just kept going on and she had the crowd so deeply engaged in this conversation. And I thought it was so profound. Like I had never maybe considered the invitation, the high calling of love in the realm of sexuality, in the realm of a covenant marriage, in the realm of sex, in that covenant. And I'm sitting there going, oh my goodness, I've been thinking about it so wrong. And to think about, you know, phileo, agape, eros, there's different types of love, but even from the sense of eros or agape type love, the highest call is a self giving and a self receiving. And now as a single, I'm thinking about marriage, of what a gift my body can be for my future spouse. And I hope that she sees it in the same way that her body could be a gift to me. And it's this again, mutual giving and receiving, which sounds a whole lot like the Trinity to me. Like the Trinity is a relationship of mutual self giving and receiving perfect love. And my dad, I have two brothers who are married, I'm not married, and I have a younger brother who's not married. There's four of us total. But he's been quick to now name this as the conversation of sexuality has become more normal in our family. My dad has been so quick to say, you cannot treat your wife's body as a masturbation tool. That is not what God is inviting you into. And that is not the highest form of sexuality in the covenant of marriage. She is not for your pleasure. Again, it is, it must be a mutual giving and receiving. And I think, unfortunately, whether that's the script of our culture or the script of pornography, like women have been so viewed objectively that as if like it's, dude, it's their duty to give their body to their husband. And I'm going, no, no, no. Like that, that invitation in First Corinthians is for both. It is for the man and the wife, both spouses, to be this self sacrificial love. Like that's what Christ calls us into, right? The highest form of love is to lay down your life, to give your sexuality, to lay down your sexuality for one another. In the context of marriage, it's not about taking, it's about giving and it's about receiving in a way that's honoring and respectful for both parties.

You know, John Eugene Peterson writes that in the message translation. I think it's 1 Corinthians 7:4. Marriage is not a place to stand up for your rights. Marriage is a decision to serve one another. And then he adds, whether in bed or out of bed, I love that. I'm like, way to go, Eugene. And in this context, I think that maturity is what we're talking about here. As you mature, you worry about the well being of the other person. And I think it's important though here not to demonize people. Pleasure, not all pleasure is evil. And taking pleasure in your spouse isn't evil. It's actually a gift when done correctly. So there is a sense about being mature and about enjoying your partner, taking pleasure in your partner, and your partner taking pleasure in you, and communication and resolving conflict really in all areas of our life. I think set a good bedrock for now communicating about having this area really work well for both people in marriage. And it can look different. What if my partner was in a car wreck and she was quadriplegic and now we have to communicate and that's a piece of our pie. And now I have to steward that aspect of my marriage. There's so many factors that kind of come into play here when it comes to how we're going to navigate this.

Well, you both mentioned Dan Allender, and we just had him on the podcast Time Wise as we're recording. But for you listening, it's going to have been a couple of months ago. You may recall he said that in intercourse we can experience 400 times the hit of pleasure of that dopamine than in just a normal day. And that's not evil. That's God's design. Now, the way we use that or the way we go about achieving that could certainly be evil. But the ability is God's plan. And so how do we look at the goodness of God in the context that God's invited us to use it in? And that's, I think, what marriage becomes so, so beautiful.

And Rodney, we could talk about marriage and sex literally all day. It's what we get paid to do. But we're going to turn the corner here a little bit and just really lean into, hey, this topic is about biblical sexuality and most often is portrayed towards those who are married. But what about singles? Whether that's pre marriage or divorced or post death, like, there's a lot of places people can find themselves in singleness. So for the young and the old, where do they find their place in biblical sexuality?

Well, this is where I like the language of maturity and immaturity. And I know that when we talk about the area of masturbation and we talk about our growth and development, when we think about somebody maybe in their older age or. I had a friend who. His wife had an affair. He joined one of our groups, and he did not have a sexual addiction. That wasn't his issue, wasn't addicted to porn, just loved his wife and was trying to really manage his sexuality now as an adult still married to his wife, and yet she wasn't reconciling. And so it was a few years into this relationship, and he wanted to make sure that pornography wasn't becoming a part of his life. So the nuance, the context right of now, he's in some ways single, but in some ways not. But he's still trying to manage this. And so about this is where, again, I think there's the framework of maturity rather than immaturity. But he would connect his sexuality to his wife twice a year and masturbate to that, hoping that as a prayer, God, someday that we can be reconciled. Now, some would say, well, he was married, or did he get his wife's permission? It did not become compulsive for him. It did not become connected to pornography for him. And so was it helpful and was it healthy? I think those are two good questions to ask. But there's a lot of nuances about just expressing of our sexuality and managing that in healthy ways, married or single. And there can be a lot of nuance and context around that. That's what I'm saying. If it's something we hide and we can never share with somebody, and not that we share it with the whole world, but in confidence, saying, hey, I'm a single person. This is how I'm stewarding this part of my life. And then asking the questions, is this helpful? Is this healthy? I think those are some good ways of helping people steward that, and that can be beneficial.

Ronnie, can I make this really practical? Because we can have this kind of conversation here always. What happens when I, as a single person have desire for somebody, whether that's that I met at church or just that I know my friend, my friend group, or my circle. And now, because let's just say we're not married, but I have not only desire relationally, potentially sexually, like, what do I do with that? What do I do with that desire? I'm not married to them. You know, potentially my brain is moving towards fantasy or creating this false narrative of what could be, but in reality, I'm not married. Rodney, help me. What do I do?

Well, I Say, first of all, you're not alone. You can listen to the Holy Spirit and that God, I really believe the divine wants to guide us. An individual that I quote in our book, Dr. James Dobbins, he really talks about focusing your sexual feelings on the concept of marriage. God, someday you're going to give me a partner to share this with with. Can you express yourself that way on the concept of marriage without objectifying a person? Listen to your conscience. I think some can't and so therefore it violates their conscience. And for them that's about listening to say, this isn't the better way for me and, or this is becoming compulsive or addictive and I'm using this as a way to cope. And so again, all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. And be very careful not to become mastered by things. But there's nuances in this that I think I just would invite every human being single to awaken to that and really invite God to say, hey, God, help me manage this in ways that honor myself and honor other people.

Yeah, I would echo what you said earlier, Rodney, and in your story, John, about thanking God for the ability to be aroused or have an erection. That in that same regard, when we find another person not only beautiful for their personality, but we feel sexual desire or arousal towards someone, there is a God given ability there or a desire. And obviously in a fallen world that can easily be misconstructed and put on all kinds of people. But when we're single and we feel that, I think there's been so ingrained in many of us, and I remember this as a college student, a young adult when I was single, is like the immediate feeling is oh, the shame on me. I shouldn't feel that, you know, because we're not married yet or I haven't even, maybe we're not even dating yet and trying to shut that down. And yes, there are ways in which we need to have healthy boundaries. We need to understand where am I going to go with that desire. But I had no framework in which to say, wow, Lord, thank you that you made me this way. I'm really noticing these strong feelings and in some regards even being able. And this is where I think a married person or a singled person are the same. We all should recognize we're made to feel desire. God created us for desire and we all have to learn to manage desire because married people also have desires that are not necessarily in that moment godly. I mean, just because you're thinking about having sex with Your spouse doesn't mean that's a godly desire. As we learn in pure desire groups. It may be that's rooted in a way to deal with shame. Or maybe I'm trying to avoid something. And so I've learned all the way back to my youth that a way that I avoid is to go to places of numbing out through lust or using pornography and. And then in a marriage, well, now I'm trying to do that in a little better way by using my spouse. But really the source of it is not a good and healthy pleasure, as you talked about, to be in this beautiful giving and receiving relationship with my spouse. It's just something in me. So in that regard, I think married or single, we're able to kind of look under desire to say what's driving this in this moment? Because as a single person, you might find in that moment that a lot of it is not necessarily driven just by their physical attractiveness, but a desire to be noticed, a desire to belong, a desire to be included, a desire for connection. And there are ways. And this is where it's so challenging. I think it's why Satan has gotten into the picture and tried to so subtly manipulate it all, because there are ways in which all that desire. It's like, is this of God? Is this what I'm made to feel? Is it because they're attractive and it's normal? Or is it because right now I'm feeling down and a little depressed? And I know that sexual desire perks me up, makes me feel good, makes me feel something. It's hard to have all that be perfectly clear, but I think it's worth the pausing to say, what am I really looking for here? And if we're just like. It was a big part of my story, I would realize that a lot of my lust or desires for other women was about being noticed. It was actually tied to my trauma story of not feeling noticed. And that if a beautiful girl noticed me or a beautiful young woman noticed me now, I mattered. And so that I would go back and say, when I was 19, 21, before I was married, I couldn't have told you any of that. But in looking back, it's like, wow, there was just a lot of my sexuality had been tied up in actually my deeper needs. And I wish someone to what you're saying, Rodney, could have helped me understand, where is this a maturity issue? Where is this an understanding, human relationships and needs kind of thing? And again, that's where I think, single or married, we can be in this together, because I have to do that now. As a married man of 25 years, I have to be willing to ask the same questions. Where is this desire coming from? And working as much as I can to purify desire, even for my spouse and not have it just be rooted in how I manage my trauma or my pain.

Can I be really honest real quick? I think I spent so much of my life shutting down desire, right?

Absolutely.

That was the framework I was given.

Which only amplifies some of the power that it has and the tone.

So redirect.

It.

Redirect.

It has to be redirected. But that's what's crazy for me. Rodney is like First Corinthians 6:12, by the way, I wrote that on my wrist for an entire summer working in a cheese factory that I should not have had ink on my wrist. But it was my life verse that summer as I got back from camp, as God was reorienting my life, because I began to realize, like, I felt such freedom and invitation from God, saying, john, you can continue in sexual brokenness, you can continue using pornography, you can continue using fantasy and masturbation, but not all things are helpful. And you can continue using it, but I just don't want you to be dominated by anything. And I had become so dominated that I wanted the freedom that Christ was inviting me into. But if I'm being even more honest, I then got into group and recovery and began pursuing sexual holiness and integrity. And I think along the way, somehow, like, again, the voice of Satan crept back in and continued to allow me to shut down desire. Like, if you were to ask my group members right now that we meet on Wednesday nights, they would say, I think John's the only guy in a pure desire group that should be invited to actually go on a date and pursue women. That's his ctc. His CTC is reclaiming and blessing the good desire that God has given him. Because I've been so accustomed to shutting it down for the pursuit of integrity or holiness. It's complex. Like, that's a good pursuit, but when it comes at a cost, like, what's the cost there? And I'm now beginning to be aware of that in my own story. Go ahead, Rodney.

I just want to say thank you both, because to the single male or female who's listening to this, and maybe masturbation is a piece of their process that they're talking about here that they're navigating. I want you to think about focusing on growth, not perfection, focusing on maturity, not Immaturity. And what Nick's. To Nick's point is, when you're curious about why do I keep doing this?

This.

Let curiosity drive you to learn and mature rather than, you better not do that again. But what's this about? What makes this make sense? Why am I doing this? And then out of that, say, is this the better way for me moving forward? Holy Spirit, would you guide me? And then if you can have safe people that you can be honest with, absolutely. Be very honest with. To say, I'm single and I wonder if my masturbation is compulsive and unhealthy for me. Yeah, that's where you can now learn from it. It becomes a place where we learn and grow. And I just know in my recovery and I was married, and I want to just say this in a. And in a context, and I guess I would say it this way, Connor can edit this if it doesn't work. But I want to try to say this in the right way. And so I'll take it again here. In my marriage, my spouse said to me, instead of looking at porn or acting out sexually in an unhealthy way, think about our relationship. And if you choose to masturbate, think of me now, for me, in my journey, when I did that, I automatically felt guilt and shame. But I would go to my wife, Tracy and say, okay, I acted out and in the sense of, but I thought about you. And as I did that, it didn't make me grateful that I was doing this. It didn't make me go, this is wonderful. I married the perfect woman. She allows me to masturbate. That's not the point. The point was, as I did it, I learned, you know what? That's not the better way for me. That's an old coping mechanism. I'm actually going to turn the page on that. I. I can move on to something healthier than using that as a way to cope with stress.

Beautiful.

So if you can hear that not in a sense of Tracy is mixed up or confused or being antisexual, but she was saying, when you feel sexual connected to me, Rodney, and then let's talk about it. And it was the talking about it that led me to a mature way of saying, I don't need that, I can let that go. And I think this is where in marriage, when we'd rather meet our own need than meet the need of our spouse, this is where this really becomes harmful.

Yeah. The point of what you're sharing, Rodney, is that you weren't looking For a loophole to make masturbation and self gratification. Okay. And so if anyone hears that, sort of like, oh, Rodney just gave me permission for this loophole, it's like, no. What you and your wife were doing was actually looking for a method of growth towards godliness, towards a better management of your sexuality. And I was going to echo that because in groups, that's often something that will come up. They'll say, okay, I get pornography being bad, it's addictive, it creates these patterns in my brain. I want to kick that. But is masturbation really that big of a deal? And do I have to think of that as a relapse? Would be people's question. And what I have challenged them is single or married? I've said for now, in the purposes of this group, I would like you to treat masturbation as a relapse, even if you don't think it is. Because if you would treat it as a relapse. And what I mean there is like, go through the tools of a recovery action plan, look through your faster scale, try to fill out the levels all the way down to there. Think through a crash site analysis. And I said, it will force you to analyze, why did I do this, really? Because I think right now you're maybe stuck in a way that says, well, I just have to have this. I don't know if I can physically live without it. That's their belief, like, I physically can't go without. And I'm like, okay, I hear you, but let's still analyze it. And as they start to analyze the times that they do masturbate, they'll come back and say, you know what? I realized I was actually way at the bottom of my faster scale. I hadn't been sleeping enough. I felt really discouraged by something that had happened at work and that need suddenly felt overwhelming. But they look back and say, but I see that it's because of all the other things that happened, probably not because I actually had a physical need. And that would be my encouragement to listeners as you're trying to figure out this area of life and growth and how do I move away from maybe where I've been? It is that category of how can I look to understand what I've been doing, what's driving it, and move towards a better way or godliness in my sexuality.

Nick, rewind the clock now. And Rodney or nick or Tracy's 12 and we go to our mom and dad and say, hey, I masturbated. I wonder if I'm Using this in a way that's not going to be beneficial for me. And they're actually becoming curious, or mom and dad are training and guiding their students rather than shaming them for masturbating, having an open conversation to say, well, let's talk about was this beneficial. Let's talk about, about was this helpful? Let's talk about your brain, you know, have a conversation that can say, let's help you grow here, rather than shame you for doing this behavior. Because typically that's where we've been. It's been a shame based response rather than a growth based response. That's what I'm trying to get us to focus on.

And when it's shame based, it becomes rooted in taboo and secrecy. And we know that biologically those are amplifiers of dopamine and of neurochemicals. And for some of us, that's it. Like this has been so wrapped in this energy of secrecy and we just need some grace to unpack all of that and do it in a way that we can talk to others. So I don't know that we intended for this to become a little divergence into the masturbation topic, but I think that's the real story of where a lot of people are at and the questions they're asking. So I think it's good that we can dialogue about that.

Yeah, just a 30 second soundbite. To say for the person who thinks that masturbation is the only form of coping or soothing, I would just say like, oh, to the conversation, there is a better way. And I think for me, I got stuck believing that masturbation or acting out sexually was the only way I'd ever get dopamine. Like the enemy told me that lie that God's not good. Right. That's the original line. The garden. That's Genesis 3. God's not good. And you're gonna have to go outside of his created order to go get goodness. And the reality is, no, God is good. And we were designed to do right relationship with him and with others. And there is a way in which I am created to be comforted, created to be soothed, created to be cared for, to have my needs, my actual needs of being noticed or seen or wanted or loved met in God honoring ways. And so I would just say, like, man, for, for those in the audience who are like, I'm really struggling with masturbation, like, that was my story too. Just to say, no, there's a better way. And just to kick that lie, like, this is not the only Way to get dopamine. And actually, it was in risking to tell Rodney that, hey, I'm aroused right now. Risk is an inhibitor of dopamine. Like, it was actually in right relationship. As I got honestly honest, that I began to find the actual comfort and soothing that I was created for. And then what happens? Right? This is also. I just keep quoting first Corinthians today, but it's like, we can then comfort others with the comfort we have received. You were designed to be comforted and to be soothed and to have emotional regulation. And unfortunately, sex has become the sooth du jour of our day. Like, it just is a thing we keep going back to because it is a really good stress reliever. Yeah, but we were designed for so much more, right? Relationship, Not a orgasm that crashes. And I find myself alone in a bathroom again, apart from my wife or apart from my friends or apart from my community. You were made for right Relationship with God and others.

Well, we're jumping into what we wanted to talk about a little bit in this next question, Rodney, is that what are the ways that you feel like our modern culture? And maybe within the church or outside the church, but just the era we're living in. How have we distorted biblical sexuality? And so how could we reclaim God's design for our sexuality?

The simple answer for me is just like, sex solves everything because we're so saturated with it. Have more masturbate more sex with more people, change your sex, same sex. There's just so much flooding of sex being somehow this highest part of what our human brokenness is gravitated to for, you know, some reason, just this sense of, like, it must be the answer. And when our kids grow up in this and there's no other voice, then somehow they can believe the lie as well, and they can stumble into the lie of culture. And so having healthy, mature, authentic relationships around you that talk about life and living it to its fullest, which is what John 10:10 talked about, right? The thief comes to kill, steal, and to destroy. But I've come that you might have life and life to its fullest, and that Christ really showed us how to live life to its fullest as a single man. And so what does it look like, married or single, just to live life to its fullest. And so I think that, you know, how do we resurrect the healthy conversation is just us having mature conversations about it and safe places where people can really wrestle with it and hopefully not all agree, but all move toward maturity and showing honor, dignity, and Respect for ourselves and honor and dignity and respect for others in the context of our sexuality.

Well, I think so often we get stuck between that pendulum swing, Rodney. Right. Like the. The church's message for so long was just, don't do it. Stop thinking about it. Don't look, don't touch, don't do, and if you do, don't tell. Shame, right, Shame. The element of voicelessness, like, keep quiet, stay hidden. And then this cultural, you know, pendulum has swung so far of, like, do it all the time, as much as possible, with as much dopamine, with as much people. Like, sex is God. Like, the current gospel of our. Of our culture or of our age is that sex is somehow the greatest fulfillment, the greatest satisfaction in life. And again, I think black and white thinking is really easy. We're really prone to do that. Like, welcome to a lot of my story. But I think there's. There's tension to be held of. No, no, no, it's not. Repression is not the answer, which unfortunately has often been the simple message of the church is simply, don't do it unless you're married. But also, unfettered access is also not the answer. So it's like, to your question, Ronnie, like, how do we steward this? And I have this analogy of a river. It's actually up on my whiteboard in my office. And I know a lot of people maybe have heard of the analogy of, like, you keep the fire in the fireplace. And it's a very similar analogy. But I don't know, I just thought about it as a river one day that as this river is, there's movement, there's energy, there's power, there's life teeming here in this river. And unfortunately, our cultural message is, now let that thing flood. To your comment earlier, like, let it flood, as in, let it have access to anything and everything and everywhere, all.

The time, wherever it wants.

Right? And unfortunately, the reality is, like, for anybody working in the agricultural industry, like, you know, that a flood is incredibly damaging, or anybody who's experienced a hurricane, it's like, that takes out homes, it takes out cities, it takes out crops. It actually kills and destroys everything if not contained in the banks. But if it's contained in the bank, the power, the life, the energy, it flourishes and it nourishes everything around. And then you have crops and cities and towns and roads and people blessed and built around this. It's just saying, no, no. Sex is so powerful. It's so powerful that we need a healthy view of containment. But notice it's not a damming of the river. We didn't stop it. We didn't cut it off completely. No, it's simply a. To your comment earlier, Rodney, a redirection or the right direction of this thing that is powerful, teeming with life like procreation and pleasure and unity. These three components of what our sexuality is built for. Procreation, pleasure and unity. And in the right context, oh, my goodness, life flourishes. And in the wrong context, oh, my goodness, if you're a betrayed partner listening or an addict, you know the pain, you know what happens when it floods the banks.

Yeah. One of the dangers I think in modern culture that we're seeing both in the church and outside of the church is the idea that sex is just something I do with my body. It doesn't touch who I am. It's not a part of my soul. And you partner that with what's very common in churches and our Christian thought, even if we don't necessarily say it, is a belief that what I do with my body isn't that important to God. Which to me is so ironic because it actually goes all the way back to a first century heresy that the church from the beginning said, no, this is wrong. That wanted to say, the body is carnal, the body is flesh, the body is of the world and the spirit is good, and the spirit is eternal. And so what you do with your body doesn't matter. And hedonistic Christians were really undercutting the power of the gospel. And so the church had to come along and say, no, our body matters to God, and what we do with our body matters to God. And yet I think even Christians are kind of brought into that of like, well, this is just something I'm doing over here with my body, but my real self, I'm all in on God, like, no, your body is a part of your real self. You are not different components that make up a human being. All those components together are you. And what I do with my body and what I do with my soul and what I do with my spirit are all connected. And to borrow the concepts of our friends Rodney and Tracy, right. In the parent training course and in their book how to talk with your kids about sex, they are so good at saying all of life is spiritual and what we do with our bodies is spiritual. And so I think that's an invitation that as Christ followers, we have to is to come out of that way of thinking that says what I do with my body doesn't matter. Because as long as we're Stuck in some of that. This whole conversation about biblical sexuality is going to be really hard to comprehend or think through because like, but it's just sex, it's just porn, it's just lust. It's just this thing I do over here. But yeah, I'm good. Like, no, it's all connected. And the more we can bring back, that's integration, that's wholeness, to be able to bring that back together and have this conversation, I think that's what we long for. And I really think that's what would create some resurrection around really healthy biblical sexuality is to be those integrated beings.

Which moves us really well into our last question that just says, how does the resurrection of Jesus Christ relate to the renewal of our sexuality both individually and as a faith community?

Well, to me the resurrection of Christ says it's all going somewhere. That God did something for all humanity by sharing his life with us. That's the resurrection, conquering sin and death for humanity. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting men's sins against them. And what I love about the story in the scriptures about death and resurrection is that, you know, when Christ died first Peter 3, 3 and 4 says that he went to those that were in the grave and he preached to them. I mean, this starts to get mind boggling as we think about it, that the good news transcends death. And Romans 8, even death can't separate us from the love of God, that the love of God wants to take those things in our life that have been broken or feel dead and resurrect them. And it's not just someday. Although I'm grateful for that day where whatever it looks like for all things to be made new, for this reconciliation work of God, I'm all for it. But I don't have it all figured out, I'll be the first to admit that. But I'm grateful for the hope that I found even in my own life, that Christ can take a part of my life that's been dead and bring some resurrection to it in the sense of helping me be healthier as a human being and offering that hope to other people. So that's my hope for the church. I'm not sure if that was exactly the question that was asked, but that's where I'm leaning toward it in this response.

I think it was. And for me, what comes to mind with the resurrection and how it speaks to our sexuality is to also camp in Romans 8:1 and to hear the words there is now no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus, for the power of the Spirit has freed us from the law of sin and death. And that message needs to be heard because as we know and in our own story, we walk into groups and there is so much condemnation being held by Christian men and women about their sexuality. And it's often because they keep doing it. And so they know that when they confess, Jesus forgives them, but they're like, but I keep doing it, so there must be something wrong with me. Maybe I'm not saved. Maybe God can't help me. And just this condemnation that they can't get free of because they're maybe stuck in a behavior. And I think that's a starting point to say Jesus through his life, death and resurrection has freed you from the condemnation. Now, that doesn't give us a get out of jail free card to just do what we want and sin all over the place. That's not what we're saying. But it is a get out of condemnation and shame card that says Jesus took it. And so when you walk in to look at how do I address my broken sexuality or areas that I've dishonored God with it, I can start actually from that place of grace that says, man, I'm here and there's no condemnation. And that's why I have the freedom to address what I'm doing, because I can do it not out of this place of fear and shame and condemnation, but out of grace and goodness and the invitation to relationship by God and others. And so if we can see Jesus proclaiming that over us. And again, this is where I go back to my previous answer that sometimes we have so separated our sexuality from our spirituality. Like, well, yeah, I know Jesus says no condemnation about, like, everything else, like lying or cheating, but in my sexuality, no, I think I'm condemned. Like, no, there's no condemnation because of Christ. And let's start there.

And Nick, this is where therapeutic offices or recovery groups have been the safest place not to feel condemnation. And I believe that the church is the next in line to be the safest place that our local communities of faith, when we gather with brothers and sisters, they are the next place that God's going to resurrect, where the church would be known as the safest place, where. Where you're not condemned, but you're welcomed and you're walked with and there's resources that are there beside you. And that's really, that's the hope in my heart, is that somehow our faith communities would become the safest place for men and women. And, and that. That. That we. We could be a part of ushering in something really beautiful for this pandemic issue of society, that we could say, hey, us too, but we found something better, and we invite you to join us on the Better Way.

Amen. John, how about for you?

Yeah, I think for me, I, like, I'm just getting emotional over here because I think I sit in the work of resurrection every single day. Like Rodney getting to work with donors, and Nick, as you also are coming along and working with donors. It's just like that is the story that I get to hear. I think of one of the first stories that comes to mind is actually Jonathan and Denise McCully. And we have their story on our YouTube channel if you guys want to check that out. But I just think about him sitting in the house by himself as his wife Denise had taken literally their five kids after the moment of disclosure. But that's not where the story ends, because the story of resurrection, if. If God can take life to death and bring life again, he can do the same thing in your story. And we've seen him do it in so many stories. And all of a sudden, that family that was literally torn apart in that moment is now living together. They're back together. Their marriage has been restored. Their family is being rebuilt. And that's just one story. I think of another story of a couple up in the Seattle area. It was January 19th of 2019 when she discovered, you know, these images on his phone and these. These credit card charges for something she wasn't aware of. I mean, this was D Day, January 19, 2019. Fast forward two years in the process of recovery. January 19, 2021, was the day that she heard the heartbeat of their second child. Second thing. July 30, 2019, same year. That was the day of full disclosure. July 30, 2021, was the day of the birth of their second child. You want to talk about a God who's going to restore all things. You want to talk about a God who can bring resurrection from the worst things. You want to talk about Isaiah 61 that says, I'll give them a crown of beauty instead of ashes. For anybody who's mourning, like, blessed are you, who mourns, like, for you will see God, like, like, can we talk about the Beatitudes? Can we talk like, this is the gospel message. Life, death, and resurrection. Like, that is the harmony, creation, decreation, recreation. Like, we serve a God of recreation. And if he can do it for them. I know that he can do it for you. Like, I don't know where you're at in your story, but I know that I was pretty helpless at one point. I know that at camp I was saying, God, if you could redeem this. That was the prayer. If you could redeem this. Porn addiction. My story being the perfect child of four sons and the elders, or, sorry, the four kids and the elder son, I'm like, God, if you could redeem this, like, I would tell this story literally for the rest of my life. And what a privilege, what an honor to get to be in this moment now, in these continued moments, a part of pure desire, getting to see so many people set free from the voicelessness of shame and resurrected to regain their voice, to tell their story and to partner with what Jesus says in Revelations 12:11 that they overcame by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony because they didn't think much of their life. Let me just say this. You can't resurrect something that's not dead. So the question, maybe the invitation today is maybe you have to die to your pride, or maybe you have to die to self. Like to die to self, to live is Christ, to die is gain. Like, in order to resurrect something. Like, maybe our view of sexuality has to die, or maybe our view of sexuality has to change in order for it to be resurrected. And then again just to end by saying, I've seen him do it for so many, and I know that stories increase faith and I don't know where you're at in your story, but just to say he can do it for you, we've seen him do it for so many.

Yeah, amen. And that's why we did this five part series on resurrection. Because we know that for many, and maybe for all of you as listeners, there have been areas where your sexuality or your story has been a place where you have seen death or destruction or an enemy that steals, kills and destroys. And we believe fully in the hope and the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the work that he is continuing to do in all of us. And so, Rodney, thank you for the ways in which you are a champion of that message. You are inviting people to think differently about who God is and how he feels about our sexuality and how engaged he is in our healing, that he is deeply involved every step of the way. We can trust him. We can lean on him. So thanks for bringing your voice to that today, Rodney.

You are great for our listeners. There are healthy relationships that await you. Ask God to lead you to those people. I believe he can and will. That's my hope.

Amen. Amen. Well, thank you so much for joining us for today's episode. Listener if you are a fan of this content, please subscribe, share it with somebody, write us a review, give us a Like all of these are ways that more people will hear life giving conversations around this area of sexuality. And if you'd like more information about our groups or counseling or resources at Pure Desire, you can come and Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.