409 - The Church, Mental Health, & Healing w/ Dr. Carol Tanksley

Foreign.

Listener. I am Nick Stumbo and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors and healing from betrayal trauma. Today you are listening to episode 409 and here joining me as my co host for this new series is Mrs. Heather Kolb. Heather, welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you. It's nice to be here.

Good to see you. How is life treating you as we head towards, I guess you'd call it like late spring now as this is going to be our May series.

Yeah, good. Looking forward to the sunshine that we're going to have around for the next few months, which is always wonderful.

We are hoping there's a lot of wood. You're knock on all the wood, praying that it's lots more sun because March has been pretty miserable weather wise in Portland.

Yes, for sure.

Yeah. Well, May is a great month for a lot of reasons, Mother's Day graduations. But May is also in our society has become known for being Mental Health Month and mental health awareness. And we thought it would be a good connection point to just talk about all the ways in which mental health and the recovery journey can kind of coincide and really be overlapping in some of the messaging. And so today we had on a guest that's been on the show before, someone we really think highly of, and that's Dr. Carol Tanksley. And we talked with her about the connections between mental health and recovery and what that looks like often in the context of our faith. And so tell our listeners a little bit about this series and mental health and what they might expect from Dr. Carol today, as we like to call her.

Yeah, so this I thought was a really good episode. Dr. Carol is so enlightening with her perspective with also just personal story that she shares about herself as well as being able to give practical steps of how people can really work toward having better awareness of mental health issues as well as really taking care of our mental health, recognizing that we're really the ones in charge of what's happening with our mental health. And that's not to say that, you know, sometimes people have really serious issues and they need medication and they need doctor visits and all of the things, but just recognizing that we do have some power and empowerment when it comes to dealing with mental health issues.

Yeah, I think that's why I'm looking forward to the series because of the carryover crossover to sexual addiction. There are so many layers to it often that are there times where a mental health issue requires More intervention or medication, and we should be open to that. Yes. Are there times when it's related to past trauma and patterns of thinking? Yes. Are there times it may be spiritual oppression or some kind of battlefield? Sure. But the complexity of that, that it can be any number of issues, sometimes keeps us from dealing with it. Like, I think with sexual addiction, it's like we don't fully understand it. It's messy, so we just kind of move on. And I think that's the value of what Dr. Carroll brought today, is she keeps taking it back to scripture, keeps taking it back to some of the basic things that do that we know to be true and that we see in the life of Jesus and then applying them to mental health. And then in a lot of ways, I think our listeners will see in which that also applies to a journey through addiction or the betrayal trauma related to that.

And really, I think her message of equipping the church, equipping church leaders to know how to deal with people who struggle with mental health issues and making the church a safe place is gonna be huge.

Yeah. Well, I think you're in for a treat. A little bit more about Dr. Carol as we jump into the episode. Dr. Carol Tanksley is an author, speaker, personal coach, licensed OB GYN physician, and an ordained doctor of ministry. So she has covered her bases. She has written several books, including Sexpectations and Overcoming Fear and Anxiety Through Spiritual Warfare. She is passionate about helping people find healing from broken relationships, issues around sex and sexuality, mental and emotional problems, and toxic religion healing that comes from the transformation Jesus offers in these areas so that they can experience the fully alive life that he came to bring us. So now here is Dr. Carol Tanksley and our conversation on the church mental health and healing. Dr. Carol, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. It's good to have you again.

Oh, thank you so much. Nick, Heather, I am really thrilled you guys do such good work. And I'm just honored to be part of. Part of this conversation and this particular month where you're talking about something really important.

Yeah. We've been this month drawing all the connections that exist between mental health and the recovery journey and how often those. Those two journeys into greater mental health and recovery can be kind of mingled together for so many. And so let's dive into that, Dr. Carol, because you have done a lot of work with integrating faith when healing from fear, anxiety, grief, and other mental health issues. So what inspired your journey into this intersection of faith and mental health?

As for many, my own story, I think God Usually, if not, almost always takes our own stuff and then transforms it, metamorphosizes it. And that's where our ministry comes from. I grew up in a very, very troubled home. And by the time I was a young woman just going through my medical training and starting medical practice, my chronic unhappiness further deteriorated into very severe distress. I had a number of different mental health diagnoses at that time. I knew that God had the answer, but I wasn't finding it. I was getting help. I was trying to do all I knew at the time. I was seeing a professional therapist. I was actually on medication for a period of time, but I was not doing well. There were times I would be literally walking the streets at night for hours, crying and just in torment because of all that was going on inside here. I was a professional. I had graduated from medical school, and I was taking care of patients. And there were times I would come to work in the morning and my eyes would be so swollen from crying so many hours that it would be hard to focus on the patient across from me. My stomach would be in knots. I would be sitting talking to someone, and inside my body would just be in turmoil. I would go home and just start crying again. Many, many, many nights. Sometimes many nights in a row that went on for about four years. I call it my four years of hell. Part way through that journey, I met Jesus. I had gone to church from the time I was born. I'd read the Bible from the time I could read. And I knew all kinds of things about God, but it wasn't connecting. And partway through that particularly severe time, I met Jesus personally, which changed so much. I could start to hear God's voice. He could start to clean me up. And there was about a year or so of work that God had to do to clean me up so that I could become functional. I learned a lot of things through that process. After I met Jesus and God was doing his work in me, one of the big things I learned was that I could choose where my mind went. It didn't mean I would never have a troubling feeling or thought, but that I had agency over where my mind went. I learned how to manage my mental health, if I can say it that way. I don't want to minimize anybody's distress that has gone on longer. But I learned the difference between acknowledging where I am as a human and my mental health pressures, even diagnoses or whatever, and what I could choose to do as a result, and the role that Jesus had so a Lot of it was my own story. And then as I started getting into ministry and talking with people, I saw how big the mental health component is in addiction, in spiritual formation, and just life for so many people. So I kind of went. Just went there really, really quick. I hope that's okay, guys. But that was the answer to your question.

Well, like you said, for so many of us, the journey in any kind of sphere is often personal. It's our own recovery or the things we've learned that we feel equipped to say, man, I've got to help others learn the things that I've learned along the way. And being able to help out of those experiences. And not just we can read something in a book and then regurgitate to others, but it doesn't carry near the meaning of when it's our story and when we're walking it and we're encouraging them in ways that we ourselves were once encouraged in. And it's very a biblical concept of Paul in Corinthians saying, with the same comfort that we have been given, go then and comfort others, that out of what we've received, we then can care and give away for the good of others. So I love that.

One thing I just want to kind of say more recently about why I'm talking about these things. I know so much of what you at Pure Desire do is helping people with their sexual struggles, and I believe mental health is very much connected there. So as I have learned more in ministry and professionally in the last few years, I can see how this is so important in the work that you do. The Surgeon General just a year or two ago talked about the epidemic of loneliness that our country experiences. And frankly, I think we could say that about the world in so many ways. We are built with that hunger for connection, and when we feel lonely, we're going to do something to try and mitigate that. I believe that is one of the powerful instigators for addiction, whether it's pornography or something else. We're doing something to try to cover up, to try to deal with that deep, deep soul hunger and cry.

Yeah, I love that. So what do you think is the church's role in addressing mental health struggles?

Classically, the Christian church and mental health have not had a very useful interaction. I mean, like 50 years ago, 100 years ago, a big idea that came into the Christian church was that mental health is from the devil. Now, I do not want to minimize spiritual warfare at all, and it is real. However, mental health symptoms can be because we live in a sinful world, it can be because of trauma that we have experienced. And when the church can help people understand that this is a multifaceted problem and make it okay to talk about it, I think that may be perhaps the biggest thing of all. I know that one of your passions is we need to talk about porn and such issues in the church. Well, we need to talk about mental health and such issues in the church. If the gospel isn't big enough to handle the big issues that any of us have, including mental health issues, then what good is it just doing a spiritual bypass and oh, pray about it. And you shouldn't feel that way. No. And some people with mental health struggles have heard that from the church, which has only added to their pain. The church God intended to be a place where all our struggles can be out there. We should have in the body of Christ the most warm, friendly, hospitable place for people to bring their stuff, including anxiety, depression and whatever other variety of mental health issues, addiction. This needs to be the place where all of that stuff is brought into the light. There wasn't anybody who had a mental health or sexual or any other kind of struggle who came to Jesus and didn't feel welcomed. We're his hands and feet. We're his body. We need to be the same place. We, meaning the body of Christ, needs to be the place where people feel welcomed, that they can find support and care and the one anothering that the New Testament talks about regardless of their issue, including mental health.

Amen to that. The church could and should be the safe place where we can have these conversations, where we can bring our challenges, our dysfunctions, our. Our journey into the light and not be on it alone and find that others are walking that same road while we look to Christ and we pray and have faith and do some really hard work. And I, I think that's what you're alluding to is that too often in the church we want to put things in an either or category that's either sin or righteousness. It's either of God or of the devil. And in some aspects there's truth behind that. But I think it has led us to a way of thinking that says, well, anything that is not holy and of God must be demonic driven in a person's life. And we've even seen that with sexual addiction kind of struggles. If we just think that it's demonization or you're possessed with the spirit of lust, people cast that out and there's some truth to. There can definitely be a spiritual Attack a spiritual component to our battle. And yet we've seen so often how the struggle that people face is a byproduct of their early childhood exposure that they maybe had no desire for, but something was brought to their attention or forced on them. And then in the culture they were in, that behavior started to grow and amplify. And then it became a pattern and a way of dealing with unwanted feelings. Well, when you hear that story, you say, well, that's not spiritual oppression. That's living in a fallen world and not having resources and people to support you towards healing. Let's help with that. And I think mental health in so many ways falls into that category of can there be spiritual oppression or some kind of issue there? Well, absolutely. But there also may be a whole story here of how this issue or challenge or pattern has developed in a person's life. And rather than simply judging it as a spiritual issue to be cast out, we see the whole person and their whole story and invite them to engage in that. Where I think what we're really starting to talk about then is what we would call in kind of fancy church language, sanctification. It's inviting God into every place in our life in order that he might refine us and make us more like him. And that's not always an instant process. It is often a slow road of incremental change over time.

When we're talking about mental health, the doctor part of me can geek out on some of the research in the last few years about neurobiology, interpersonal neurobiology and attachment theory and all of that. But the mental health realities that we live in are a brain. We are embodied beings. And we often forget that when Jesus rose from the grave, he didn't leave his body behind. Jesus coming, the whole incarnation, but especially the death and bodily resurrection of Jesus, forever changed our understanding of our humanness, or it should. And so the goal is not a checklist of human behavior, of righteous behaviors, although behaviors have consequences. The goal is wholeness. The goal is to use Romans 8, 29 to become like Jesus. So there is a sense in which our mental health challenges for the many who experience that are less than God originally planned. Well, you know, so is, you know, my genetic makeup that predisposed me to a certain illness or, you know, do we say that somebody with a broken leg has a demonic oppression? Again, we have to be careful in not over spiritualizing and yet bringing the spiritual right into all of it. I think it's kind of all of the above. You know, when we make it abcd, you know, which is it. It's not that that's always wrong, but most of the time when it's a big issue, it's all of the above. I mentioned that I had to learn how to steward my mental health, that I manage my mental health. I have had to learn that that takes. I have to take care of my physical body. There are things that if I don't do in taking care of my physical body, my mental health is not going to be good. I have to choose the thoughts that I think. I have to take every thought captive and very actively choose where my mind. I have to stay close to Jesus. I have to have that intimacy with him or I'm not safe now. I am not struggling to. I'm not white knuckling it. To not fall into some of those struggles that I had before. That was a season and God has set me free again. I want to be very careful that my story is mine and it doesn't apply exactly the same to everybody. But I do not have to white knuckle it to not be messed up. I am whole, but I do have to day by day steward my well being under God so that I can remain whole. And I think that's the journey that all of us have to do. And perhaps that applies especially to mental health as well as to those with sexual issues.

I do appreciate the way that you brought up Jesus behavior, you know, and the people that he encountered and how that really should be the model that we use in the church is not to say that it's either, you know, biblical or it's nothing, but to just be able to look at all of the issues and treat people with care and compassion and be a safe place for them and to help them find the resources that, that they need. Because the church, we really should be equipping people so that they can find the answers. You know, that Jesus is definitely the answer, but sometimes we need bigger answers or a broader scope of answers when it comes to mental health issues.

Yeah, Jesus is the answer, but it's not Jesus only in the sense that that has sometimes been talked about. You know, if it's Jesus only and I don't pay attention to my diet, I'm not going to be healthy physically if it's Jesus only. And I don't pay attention to the media that I allow into my mind. I'm not going to be mentally emotionally healthy if it's Jesus only. But I hang around with people who are unhealthy and negative, maybe violent or Toxic. I'm not going to be whole. So Jesus is the foundation and the umbrella and everything. And what does that look like in the moment to moment way that I live every day?

Yeah, well, I think you've already hit on a few of these, Dr. Carol, but let's kind of create more specifics around them if we can. What are some of the biggest misconceptions that you feel Christians have about mental health issues like fear, anxiety, and even depression?

Yeah, we have talked about the demonic oppression part and we can dispense with that. A couple other misconceptions that I see is that I have to try harder to make myself feel better and think better before Jesus will really allow me to be close. That my, that this is my work, that I have to do it now. There are things I must do if I want to be whole, but it's not that I make it happen. And so when people have mental health issues, often their challenge includes, I don't feel able to do much for myself. I don't feel like I have a lot of agency in knowing what my thoughts need to be or in managing my feelings. Some of that comes from the way you grew up. So the impact of family of origin, the impact of trauma. You learned how to manage your feelings before. You learned, before you knew you were learning that. Just like you learned about sexuality and intimacy and relationships and conflict and communication. You learned how to manage your world or not. You learned that if I had a feeling that felt negative, maybe you learned to squelch it, that I deny it, that I ignore it. It's not okay to have a, quote, negative feeling. And so the impact of family of origin and early learning and trauma, how important that is, is often a misconception. And another misconception is that it's pray only. Again, we've kind of alluded to this, but just pray more and you'll be okay. I know one of the things you frequently talk about again is porn. And so it would be like saying, well, just pray more and you won't look at porn. Okay. There's part of working that out that we have to do. It's the same with these other related mental health issues. In recovery, there's a pathway. Don't stop praying. I sometimes hear, I literally hear from people around the world who are struggling with varieties of all these things. And a common message that I get is, I prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed, and I still keep struggling in this way. Why can't God set me free? I pray as hard as I can. Well, don't stop praying. Absolutely don't stop praying, but pray. And I think that understanding is part of it. I can't right this minute. Remember who said it. But grace is not opposed to effort. Grace is opposed to earnings. I can't earn my wholeness any more than I can earn my salvation to heaven. But there are things I must do. There is effort. I must be engaged. And I think that working together with God for my mental health, as well as all my areas of wholeness is another area that people can get sidetracked. They either feel like, well, I've got to do it all myself, or just pray harder and Jesus, do it. It's working together with. And I think that is especially important in mental health. And one I know that you're going to want to talk about is the role of other people. Another misconception is that I can do this myself, and frankly, I can't. I need you. I must have you on this journey with me.

Yeah, that's so good. And it makes me think of how many of those do relate directly to what we see in recovery from sexual addiction or compulsive sexual behaviors. We fall into those same categories, right? I think we feel like, well, it's either God's work or it's my work. And if I do any effort, then I'm nullifying the work of God. And yet that is completely contrary even to what Scripture teaches us. You know, I think of as you were talking, I was thinking of the book of Nehemiah. And when he got the report of how the condition of the wall was, it says he prayed all night. And then in the morning he got up and he went and talked to the king. And he said, can I go back and rebuild the wall? And I think about if Nehemiah had just prayed and prayed a year later, he's like, God, no one has fixed the wall. And I'm praying like God's sitting there going, yeah, and I've put you in the perfect position to go and be a part of this. And when that wall got rebuilt, was that God's work or Nehemiah's? And I think when you read the story, it's so evident the answer is yes. God worked in and through Nehemiah. And Nehemiah did his work in and through the strength that God provided him. And in this journey to wholeness, whether we're talking about mental health or sexual addiction type issues, we need to embrace that reality that this is going to maybe be the hardest thing I've ever done. And. And I'm not doing it alone. That as I do the work, God is working through me and he's bringing other people in to be a part of that journey also. And that none of that cancels out the other. My work doesn't cancel out God's work, and God's work doesn't cancel out my need to do some hard things. But it's seeing it all as that cooperative process.

Yeah. I really think that what you're saying is such a good reminder, because I think that for us as Christians, we think that, okay, I'm doing these things, I'm reading my Bible, and I'm praying, and I'm not getting better. And in fact, I might be getting a little bit worse, and I don't know what else to do. But now I feel like a bad Christian. And so I think that that's one of the things that we get with others, is when we invite people into. Even into our struggle, that we're given an opportunity to learn something different, to learn something that maybe our brain can't come up with or that our faith background has said, you can't go to a psychologist because they're from the devil. And so you have to only go to Bible study, you know, and it breaks down some of those errors in thinking, but it really does come from community, from having other people who walk life with us.

Exactly. And this working together with God, which includes you, includes people. It makes me think of Jesus talking to Nicodemus where he said, you hear the wind, but you can't tell where it comes from or where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit. I've been on a sailboat once, and in the Northwest, it was on the Columbia river, and it was an amazing experience. It was quiet. There was no motor. Myself and the others on the boat were not rowing. We weren't exerting that kind of effort to make the boat go. We were going fast, but we would not have moved an inch if we had not raised the sails to catch the wind. One way, I believe, to think of our role is we raise our sails to catch the wind of the Spirit. We keep putting ourselves in the place where God can do his work, where others can support us, et cetera. And we can talk a little bit more about that. And I Think of Philippians 2, 12, 13. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to do according to his good pleasure. You work and God works. It's working together, which is A paradigm that I think we would do well to talk more about in the church.

So we've talked about this a little, but how would somebody be able to distinguish the difference between something that is a spiritual battle and a mental health issue?

Yeah, the question is important, but I also want to limit its importance. In other words, to distinguish whether it's biology in my brain or whether it's the kingdom of darkness coming against me or whether it's some sin in my life. It's a useful question, but I've seen people get bogged down there. And so I would want to caution people not to spend an inordinate amount of time trying to, quote, figure that out. But a couple things. One, we all have a vulnerability. Some of us the vulnerability is to sexual addiction. Some of us the vulnerability is to anxiety or depression. And it may be a combination of all. Some of us have come through trauma. So it may be that the kingdom of darkness is exploiting something in my natural DNA or my life experience. It may be a combination. The biggest single thing that I can suggest to somebody who's wrestling with that question is ask Jesus. Just write out and out. Ask Jesus. What is your perspective on this? You know, I'm feeling sad or I'm feeling hopeless. I'm feeling stuck or worried and anxious. What's your perspective on this? I have learned to ask Jesus that kind of question and it's not uncommon. That there will be something the Spirit brings to mind that is kind of the linchpin for now. It May be it's 10 o' clock at night, I'm tired, my brain is not going to be able to see things well and feel pleasant and clear. I need a good night's sleep. That may be it. It may be okay. There is a spiritual battle that I need to plead the blood of Jesus over. Okay, Maybe there is some unforgiveness in my heart that is preventing my mental well being. Okay, deal with that. Ask Jesus, and if you are open to the Spirit directing you, he will guide you into what the next step is. One of the great things about walking this journey with God is he rarely, if ever dumps the whole load on you at once because we couldn't handle it. But he will show you the next step. And if you ask Jesus his perspective, he will guide you into the next part of it. To address it may be talking with a friend. It may be getting somebody to pray for you. There's probably 100 or more different pieces that could be the next step. Jesus will tell you, ask Him.

I think we're seeing too, some needed correction in this area where for too long, and maybe it comes out of our faith of saying to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And we can so emphasize different aspects of our being that I think we inadvertently separate them from one another and think that, well, then if I have a spiritual issue or a heart issue, well, that's, that's something I take to God. But if I have a, maybe a issue with my emotions or feelings, well, that's maybe a therapist or a friend. And then I have a problem in my body, that's self care or go to a doctor when the needed growth I think I'm seeing is that we're remembering more frequently. We are whole beings and we are interconnected beings. And that what influences the heart, influences the mind, influences the body, and it's all connected. And to bring all of that before God, knowing he cares about all of it. And in the same way, being able to bring all of that to a group or a friend and know they care about all of it because it's all connected. So like you were saying, rather than trying to distinguish out, like, well, is this a spiritual issue for my heart and my soul or is this a physical body issue? Like, well, maybe the answer is yes, it is both. And so we could be prayed for. I've said on another one of these podcasts, like, it's good in these situations to just shoot in all directions because to live a life of confession and walk in the truth, that's healing for me. And whether that's the source of my struggle or not, that's a good activity. Asking people to pray for me and just claim God's authority over my life, that's good for me, whether I need it for release from spiritual oppression or not. Man, I should do that. And going to a therapist or a doctor and pursuing help in that way, well, that's good for me. And whichever one may be the most needed in that moment, I may not know. And so as I hear you saying that, Dr. Carol, it's like, well, yes, and if the Lord shows you something that surprises you, maybe, because sometimes I find those answers are maybe more simplistic than we thought. Like, it's doing something small, like going to bed earlier or eating healthy, like, well, it can't be that. Like, there's got to be way more. Like, well, maybe take that next step towards health and recovery and not get into these fixed thinkings of, well, what's the magic solution? And is it so spiritual or is it mental, or is it, it's like, yeah, let's take the steps we can take and trust that because we're whole beings, all of that will work together for our good.

Yeah, I think you know this, but the Hebrew mindset in the Old Testament that the Hebrew culture didn't see compartments like we do, you know, mind, soul, body, spirit, you know, whatever. They didn't have that concept of separated parts of us. I actually think right from genes we can see this. God forms Adam from the dust of the ground and he breathes into his nostrils the breath of life and man becomes a living soul, a nephesh. The Hebrew concept of nephesh was me, the whole part of me, body, mind, soul, spirit, everything. And you can't separate that. You can't separate the various parts of me from one another any more than you can separate the, you know, the, the flour and the water and the yeast and the salt from a loaf of bread. We are baked together as integrated human beings by our creator Jesus when he came in incarnate human form, same thing, integrated. We, our minds can't completely comprehend all of that. But I love that you were pointing that out, Nick, because we in our Western culture in particular can fall into that trap. It's not a meaningless question, but it can get into unhealthy areas.

So Dr. Carol, what are some practical steps that a person could take to prioritize their mental and emotional well being and maybe especially if they grew up in environments where that wasn't normalized as behavior?

Yeah, starting with how Jesus lived when he was here on Earth is a great one. Our culture today is one of hurry and of constant digital overload. That's not what we were created for. So just thinking of the lifestyle that Jesus lives, someone has said Jesus lived at three miles an hour. That's the normal rate a human being walks. So some of the lifestyle changes that may be very good for our mental health, it doesn't mean that we never use an automobile. It means that we need to order our life in the direction of well being. And looking at how Jesus lived was part of that. His message and his mission was urgent, but he was never in a hurry. So some of those ways of stopping the hurry and overload are really, really important in our well being. Another one looking at Jesus, life was how he needed people. Jesus needed intimacy. He was never married, never had sex, but he needed intimacy. How did he deal with that? It was moment to moment intimacy with his heavenly Father. Yes, indispensable non Negotiable, must be. But he also truly needed people. Who is your Peter, James and John. This must be much more than showing up at church once a week, as important as that is. But you need a few people who are up in your business, who know what's going on with you, who ask you the hard questions and you ask them. This is mutual. It's getting below the surface. When you are struggling with a temptation or you're feeling depressed or sick or you've got a family issue or whatever, who knows? I remember talking to a group of Christian leaders a bit ago, challenging them in this area. Just as important to leaders as to everybody else. And I said, if you were struggling with suicidal thoughts, who would you tell? If you were hooked on porn, who would you tell? All of us need a Peter, James and John. It's messy, it's hard. They will let you down and you will let them down. And if Jesus needed it, you and I need it too. If Jesus didn't get through this life without needing people, how do you and I think we could ever get through this life without it? Those are a couple of the really big ones and I think you can probably hear a little passion that I have about that because it is such a critical matter in our mental well being as well as every other way.

One, as you already brought up, we live in a culture that more and more tends to drive us towards isolation and the illusion of connection through social media or platforms like that, where we feel like, like we're aware of what other people are doing, we're posting what we're doing, but who really knows us. And that deep knowing, that true intimacy of knowing and being known is so crucial to living a healthy life. And I think it's sometimes taking an honest assessment of our world to say that the world I live in does not naturally push me towards that, it pushes me away from it. So I will need to be intentional if I'm going to value that kind of connection in my life.

And I love the way you said that about who is your Peter, James and John? Because as you. And who is the person that you would call when you're having suicidal thoughts or when you're struggling with pornography? And that's such a great reminder. I was thinking in my head, okay, who is my Peter, James and John? And I have them.

This is hard people. Regardless of whether it's a mental health issue or a sexual issue or something else, of the people that come asking for my advice, this is usually the single hardest barrier that I see Them facing is, who can you connect with? God did not create us to live in isolation. The first thing he said was not good was Adam's aloneness, not his singleness, his aloneness and Jesus needed. So that is both a critical piece for each of us to be intentional about and something that the body of Christ, the church, can continually be challenged to help people with. It should be, as we started out saying, the place where people feel the safest to bring all of this stuff. But I do not do this naturally. This takes a lot of intention on my part for myself. I think perhaps as Christian leaders, it's an extra occupational hazard because we can be tempted to think, oh, I'm a little more mature and I know Jesus and you know my interaction with others, I should be helping them. Well, you should be passing on and you should be helping others. But if Jesus needed this, you and I need it too. And I have to put effort into it. I think that in part depends on personality styles. Some personality styles may make those kinds of connections with a little less effort than others. But it is not the default. It's not the place you will drift to. You may have friendships, but are they your Peter, James and John, do they really know what's going on with you? So one of the things I challenge people with is the one or two or three people that might be okay in your world. Take it one level deeper, push it one bit more. Maybe you're in a small group already, the purity sire group or any group. Take it one level deeper and that may be. You have to risk and you may be terrified. Do it anyway. Do it anyway.

So we talked about this briefly, that historically, mental health has not been talked about much in the church. Church. So what advice do you have for somebody who feels ashamed or hesitant to seek help?

Find your people. First of all, I acknowledge it's hard. The shame is heavy. You're not going to feel like it and it's not going to be natural. But find your people. I can guarantee, and I mean this seriously, I can guarantee to you that there are other people sitting in church with you on Sunday morning who are struggling with mental health issues. It may not be the identical symptoms that you have, but there are enough people there who are struggling with symptoms similar enough that if you start talking about it, somebody else is more than likely to say, yeah, me too. How might you start prayerfully ask if you don't have a place that's natural to start talking about this? Prayerfully ask God who among the people I'm aware Of who are the people that I sit with on Sunday morning who might be safe? And then pray over your list. And then just start with reaching out to just one. Tell somebody. You might say, you know, God is stretching me and he's. He's working on some stuff with me, and I. I really feel impressed that I need to talk to somebody. It's uncomfortable, but I wonder if maybe you're one of my people. Could I talk to you about something? Give them an opportunity to say yes, and then maybe over coffee or after church on he said, or sometime just tell them a part of it. Just share a piece of your struggle. What you're looking for is not somebody to try and fix you or do a spiritual bypass. Yeah, you want them to pray for you and help, but what you're really looking for is somebody to lean in and say, oh, that's hard. Tell me more. And to position themselves alongside you. That may or may not happen. The first person you talk to. But if the first person doesn't work out, take a pause, deep breath, and try again. I would also say that leaders in the church can have a really great role in this, in making mental health conversations standard. I know one of your messages to the church is we just need to be talking about this stuff. It needs to be the norm. It needs to be the norm. Talking about mental health issues, too. It's just part of references in the Christian journey from the pulpit or small group leaders or resources that are made available, that it's just part of the normal journey of becoming whole for those of us that live in this world.

As you share that, Dr. Carol, it makes me think about one of the phrases we've repeated a lot from Michael Dye and the faster scale, that the right thing is usually the hard thing to do. That there is something about whether it's facing a mental health challenge or dealing with a pattern of compulsive behaviors that it's unpleasant, if we could put it that way, to deal with, because we've maybe been avoiding something. We've been trying to take an easier route out. I'll just fix it by myself. Sometimes that's appealing because fixing it by myself is safer than entrusting a part of my story to you. That's risk. That's putting myself out there. And I think when we get to that point, whether it's in our mental health journey or in a compulsive sexual behavior that we say, what I'm doing is not working, I'm going to need to do something new and different. And it often will. In that initial moment, it will feel hard because it's something we've been avoiding or putting off, or we know it would be good. And it may be helpful, too, to not think about how will I fix it all at once. But how do I take that next step? What would move me in that direction of, like you said, just invite that person out for coffee or make that phone call or set up that counseling appointment or whatever the case might be for us, that we don't have to figure out what the whole road looks like to take the first step. And the first step, even if that feels a little hard, it's like, well, but I could do that. And if I do that, maybe that'll lead me to the next one and the next one, and then I can be on the road to healing. Yeah.

And that's great, Nick. And you mentioned healing. It makes me think of James 5:16, you know, confess your sins to one another, that you may be healed. I think that goes for the broad thing. The Greek word is best translated sins. But whatever struggles we have, confess your stuff. That's something that we have, I believe, lost in the Protestant Church. It's not that I believe the Catholic perspective of confession is the primary or what God is talking about, about here, but the idea is that our healing comes from bringing it into the light, whatever the it is. It's how Jesus dealt with people, and it's how he asks us to deal with each other and with our own stuff, even just practically.

I think that when we invite someone into our struggle and we take that step and we risk that somebody maybe saying, no, they don't want to walk this with us, but being willing to put it out there, there's something about that that just kind of lightens the load, too, that makes I know that that's happened with me when I have something that I'm struggling with and I bring it to a friend, and now I don't have to carry it all by myself. It's still my responsibility and the consequences are still mine. But now it's something that, as much as I would have loved to keep it myself, and it's going to be an easier journey because I've invited somebody in and now somebody else is going to in some way carry part of the weight with me.

Yeah, thanks for that, Heather. And neurobiologically, we have research to prove that that is true. The perceived weight of a problem is less when I have another human being that is seeing me and with me in it. This is the reason why sports teams do so much better when they function as a team. It's why mountain climbers or first responders, you can do much harder things. If I have another human brain for my brain to perceive with, just neurobiologically we know that's true. So whether it's a biblical directive or the neurobiological foundation or just the subjective feeling that yeah, when I tell somebody my shame is unburdened, load feels lighter, there's plenty of reasons to just do this. And I will say too, if you need to pay somebody for this, do it a therapist, a Christian counselor, psychologist, or whatever the body of Christ quotes should. And it can be a wonderful resource that is underutilized. And if you are not finding it there, you are not weak for getting some professional help. You are paying attention to your wholeness and asking for some input to become more whole. That's that. I, I just wanted to not forget to put that little comment out there.

That's a powerful word that there are professional helpers out there. And if we don't have the resources we would like to have around us, it is not a weak thing or a shameful thing to utilize them. And I think that leads into our, our final question here. Dr. Carol. I'd like to kind of camp here as we wrap up today because there's two sides to this journey. As we've talked about mental health today in this whole month. There's my own mental health, but there's the role that I have in being a part of supporting those that I care about, those that I love. So let's end with that, that part of it. Because we have church leaders that listen. We have men and women in recovery that are there to support others. What does that look like for us to create safe spaces for those who are struggling with mental health issues like anxiety, depression or trauma?

Yeah. I would again use Jesus as the paradigm. Jesus came to be. Emmanuel, God with us. The most powerful thing I can offer you is the ministry of presence. And I think that is especially true for somebody who is wrestling with trauma or mental health issues. And certainly compulsive behaviors can be very related to all of that. If I perceive you as with me, there is nothing more powerful than that for my well being. So for helpers, for leaders in the church or parachurch, to position yourselves first of all internally as you are not going out there trying to fix people, you're not junior Holy Spirit, that role has already been taken. And it's not you position yourself as alongside coming Alongside empathy is an important word here, where I demonstrate to you that I feel something of what you feel biblically. You can look at Job's friends. They started out doing a good thing. They just came and sat with him, silent for several days. That doesn't mean you're always silent. It means that the person who needs help needs to perceive you as with them. You could in some way imagine that God tried that all throughout the Old Testament, shouting from on high, giving all kinds of messages from on high. And this is oversimplification. And yes, people in the Old Testament knew God, but it wasn't quotes working. Jesus came to be with us, God with us. And that's what we need to position ourselves as in the church. And that will be an incredibly powerful way of people experiencing help. Much more than any words you say they will remember how you made them feel. Paraphrase of Maya Angelo. But we can be Jesus to them in that way. There's an old, old song called the Servant Song, and I'm not going to be able to remember it all, but it said, I will be the Christ light for you in the nighttime of your fear. That's what we can be to each other in the body of Christ, especially for leaders.

I love that. I guess that I would also encourage the people who have found hope and help in the church, and they perhaps have found a sense of healing from mental health issues, that they would be willing to step forward. You know that when somebody is taking that first step to say, you know what, I'm struggling in this way and could I share this with you? That they would be that light to somebody, that they would. That it would be really obvious. Because I know that it's really easy to hide in the church, even when you found healing. It's stepping up and making a commitment to help somebody else can be a really challenging thing. But I guess that would be my encouragement, is to be willing to be the light and the hope and the help for somebody else who's struggling.

Yeah, that's great, Heather. Yeah. It's like you're reaching back, saying to someone, I found the next few stepping stones. Let me help you take the next few steps. I've been there. I was you six months, a year or five years ago. I can show you where the next few steps are.

Yeah. It's what we talk about at a lot of our events that we give the gift of going first. And that doesn't mean you necessarily need to go and unload your whole story to someone, but to just say to Someone. You know, I know what it's like to be walking through a season of real challenge and feel alone. And I just want you to know, if you ever need someone to talk to, I'm here. And I would love the chance to just sit and be a friend, to be a listening ear and let me know if that would ever appeal to you. And you may not. You know, maybe you sense God encouraging you to say that to someone. You're like, well, I don't know what they're going through or if they. But it's again, kind of one of those questions of, like, what harm could possibly come from that? Maybe they're not really going through much and you were just expressing support for them. That still feels like a very positive thing. But maybe that family member or friend or person in your small group is really in the midst of a trial you have no idea about because they haven't felt safe to tell anyone. And someone just taking that little step of going first and saying, you know, I've walked through some pretty hard stuff, and I'm so grateful for the people that were in my life. If I could ever be one of those people in your life, please let me know. I would love to be there. That. That might give them just that little bit of open door to go. Oh, they. I think they really mean it. And inviting those conversations and not just waiting. I think a lot of us say, oh, if anyone ever needed to talk, I'm here, I'm available. But unless we've made some kind of an intentional step to say, I'm inviting you into that, I'm opening the door for you, it's just like guests that come to our home, we say, well, you can come anytime. But if I don't open the door to my house, you're not just going to. Typically, unless you know me really well, you're not just barging in. At some point, I need to open the door and say, oh, come in. And then, you know, as a guest, oh, I'm welcome here. And I think with mental health issues, sexually compulsive behaviors, when someone goes out of their way to say, your story is welcome here, come in anytime, and let's talk, it might give us the courage to step into some conversations we haven't been able to have. So wherever we can do that for others, I think that would be powerful. Dr. Carol, just love this conversation. I'm so thankful for the work that you do. If, if any of our listeners would like to hear more from you, to check out your content, to track with you. Where could they go to hear more from you?

The best place, the hub for everything, Dr. Carol is our website, drcarrolministries.com got a couple other websites like your expectations and our podcast and books. But you can find everything linked to there@drcarrollministries.com and I would love to see you all. I'm also on the social media and all that, but that would be the primary place.

That's awesome. We will put drcarolministries.com in the show notes and encourage you, our listeners to go check it out. We're big fans of Dr. Carol and just again, thank you for having this conversation today and emphasizing how important it is that we're in relationship that we don't try to do this alone. And just like in sexual addiction, we realize that inviting others in is so much more powerful than maybe we realize at first. And so for you, our listener, if you're feeling a little hopeless or uncertain, remember that seeking help is not a sign of weakness. As we said today, it is a step towards your healing. So embrace that community, seek support, and don't be afraid to prioritize your mental and emotional well being because healing is possible and with faith and the right resources, you can move forward with hope. So Dr. Kahl, great to see you day and great to see you today and we'll have to have you back again sometime.

Blessings to you both. It's been an honor and if you're.

A fan of today's content, please take a minute, subscribe Share a Review Share this with somebody else. Give us a thumbs up or a like all of those are ways that more people can hear this life giving content. And if you want more information about Pure Desire, groups, resources or counseling, go to PureDesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.

Sam.