410 - Social Media, Porn, & Mental Health w/ Ben Bennett

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Listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal, trauma, and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today you are joining us for episode 410. And joining me throughout the series is my co host, Heather Cole. Heather, welcome back.

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Very good, good, good to see you. Today we have a good conversation on tap. How's everything else in your world going?

Well, it's good.

It's always interesting for us when we're recording these because I asked you that question like an hour and a half ago for the first episode we did today. But for our listeners, this is like a whole week difference. So in real time, I hope that your May is going awesome by the time this one comes out.

It's going great.

Well, the month of May is mental health awareness month. And so throughout this month, we're doing a series on mental health and really looking at all the connections that has to things like addiction and recovery and pornography use. Because as we so often find, when someone comes to a peer desire group, they don't just bring the betrayal from sexual addiction or their own sexual behaviors. Usually there's an array of other things that are part of it. And mental health, so frequently one of those things, as well as struggles or issues with social media. And so today we really delved into those connections.

Yeah, this was a really great episode. I appreciate Ben's perspective on a lot of things and even his way of talking about anxiety and depression and other mental health issues that seem to be present when people engage in pornography use and social media use in a way that really does negatively impact their mental health.

Yeah. And Ben has done a lot of his own work and obviously with his Ministry Resolution, the Resolution movement, he is on a lot of the social media platforms. I mean, I think he has like 170,000 followers on Instagram or something crazy like that. So he's choosing to utilize that platform for ministry. While I know that many of our listeners maybe are off of all social media, and I think the truth is there that whether you're on social media or not, we are in a world where this is now a part of our reality. And today's conversation, I hope, gives people some ideas of how to navigate that, whether in their own story or maybe helping someone around them, a child, a group member, a family member. Because. Because it's a challenge that we're all facing.

Yeah. And we definitely talk about how this impacts Parents and just awareness for them. Youth leaders, pastors, anybody who has influence, I think it could be really helpful.

Yeah. So, listener, we want you to be growing in your mental health as a part of the road to recovery. And we think today Ben Bennett has a lot to offer about that. So quickly, a little bit about Ben. For years, Ben experienced trauma, deep anger and a porn addiction along with mental health issues like anxiety and depression before finding hope and healing through biblical, neuroscientific and psychological solutions, which included help from pure desire. Today, Ben is an author, podcast host, speaker, and serves with Josh McDowell ministry as the director of Resolution Movement, a global movement helping people overcome hurts and struggles and thrive in life. He and Josh McDowell recently co authored the book Free to Thrive, how youw're Hurt, Struggles and Deepest Longings Can Lead to a Fulfilling Life. And now here is today's conversation with Ben Bennett on social media, porn and mental health. Mr. Ben Bennett, welcome back to the podcast. Good to see you again, friend.

Hey, good to see you all.

Hey. We are excited about this topic because we know it really kind of is an intersection of the work that you do with Resolution Ministries and with a lot of the young adults that you are connected with. So let's talk a little bit about this, this topic of mental health and remind us, how would you define mental health versus mental health challenges?

You know, when it comes to defining mental health, I always go to that. Mental health is the state of somebody's psychological and emotional well being. And so I think a lot of times when we think about mental health, we think about, oh, mental health is anxiety, it's depression, it's some kind of mental health challenge. But really mental health affects all of us. Just like we all have physical health issues or physical health, you know, in, in our lives, we have mental health that we need to be aware of.

Well, it's a good reminder that as we talk today, we're not just addressing mental health because it's a problem or a challenge, but because all of us have mental health whether we're aware of it or not. And to talk about what are the strategies that help us maintain positive mental health and growth and structure and stability and that those are the kinds of things that maybe many people are doing normally without saying, oh, this is for the good of my mental health and not just waiting to talk about it when there's a problem. Because, you know, this being Mental Health Awareness Month, I think that is what comes to our minds right away are the mental health challenges. And I think today we're going to get to talk about both the good and the bad, the challenges.

So let's just jump into some of these questions because like you said, we're talking about mental health, but we're all going to, we're also going to be connecting some dots. So how does porn use typically begin for most people? And what are some early signs that it might be negatively impacting their mental health?

I think one of the biggest ways we're seeing it today among young people with smartphones. And I mean, I'm seeing people have smartphones like Age4 and access to iPads is accidental exposure or being introduced by one of their friends that was introduced to it. And so over and over again we're seeing people younger and younger get exposed to pornography. And I haven't come across any studies, the recent studies were a while ago on when people are exposed to pornography at an early age. But from what I've been hearing, and anecdotally hearing parents talk about their young kids, 3, 4, 5 years old, it's getting younger and younger.

Yeah. When you think of the choices we all make when we're kids, and this is, I think one of the points we try to underscore as people join a pure desire group, is that looking at our story is not to blame somebody else for our challenges, but to understand the story that we're in and what happened. And that when we made some of the choices that have impacted us now as adults and we did not have an adult brain, we had a child's brain or we were a 10 year old, you know, like in my story, being at a friend's house and seeing things for the first time of a sexual nature, that it was like, man, that really impacted me because I didn't have the adult perceptions or understandings or awareness that I might have now. I was 10 and I had a 10 year old brain. And the way that my brain was trying to make sense of what I was seeing and experiencing left a mark. And so if you start backing that up to three, four or five year old, I mean, you know, when you're four and five, you're still eating dirt, right? You need your parents saying don't, don't eat that, that's bad for you. Because as human beings we're needing to learn and to be trained and to grow. And so when we're being given smartphones and tablets from such an early age, the possibility of exposure there to all kinds of things, whether sexual or violent in nature or adult themes is a possibility. And the brain at that age doesn't know what to do with it. And so it's immediately interpreted as something traumatic or other than. And the brain, in order to protect us from traumatic experiences, might put us into the kind of categories or patterns that lead to mental health challenges that persist long after, you know, three, four or five years old. And now, thankfully, kids are resilient and there's so many opportunities as we can talk about throughout this, where parents or loving and caring adults that are a part of a child's development can help them walk through that and be resilient. It doesn't mean we're going to be marked forever, but because of that early, early exposure, it's leaving an indelible mark sometimes for people for many, many decades.

Yeah, there was a case that came up that somebody, a mom had called into Pure Desire and talked with somebody on staff and they came to me to ask legal questions about it, but she walked in and her four year old was on an iPad looking at porn. And the four year old didn't seek out porn, but it was also the device that somebody in that family, in that household to look at porn. And so it just is, I think, also having that awareness that if it's in the house, then there's a really good chance that your children are going to stumble upon it.

So Ben, as you work with young adults and you know, in your ministry, are hearing from people, you know, that are now into adulthood, if they're talking about this topic in terms of saying, well, pornography is not a big deal, it doesn't affect anyone, or I don't know if it's affecting me or what are the kind of things to maybe go a little deeper with that question that you would encourage them to look at, say, hey, here's a sign that your porn use, even occasional porn use or things you're looking at in social media are maybe impacting your mental health more than you're aware of, what kind of things might they look at to even in a sense, self diagnose a little bit?

Yeah, well, whether or not we realize it, porn is affecting our mental health, the state of our psychological and emotional well being and, and even on a neurological issue. Y' all talk about this a lot. Frontal lobe atrophy, the withering away of the high reasoning and judgment portion of of your brain. Your mont. Your mental health is not at its peak. It's not at its best. If you are consuming pornography, it stops the normal amount of blood flow to your high reason and judgment portion of, of your brain and leads to impulsive decisions and brain fog and lack of thinking clearly. So that would be one thing. Another thing is that we just can't help it. People feel shame so often, whether or not they're Christians, when they're consuming pornography. I've had conversations with people who aren't Christians and they just feel bad when they continue to watch pornography again and again. God's law is written on our heart. There's something within us that knows that God wants to protect us from things that are harmful, that he wants to provide something so much better. And pornography is, is not it. It's not God's best for us by any means. It's. It's so harmful. And so this feeling of shame, this feeling of why do I keep doing this? I've seen continue to come up again and again and then that leads to, it can lead to depression in people's lives. And it's so interesting that it's like if you go to pornography, you the cost of that, the cost of going to pornography is your mental health and then the cost of your mental health is pornography. It's like this feedback loop. People are dealing with poor mental health because of trauma, because of things in their life. They're stressed, they're not experiencing the fullness of life that God designed. Mental health is suffering, anxiety, depression, trauma, shame. And that can often lead somebody into pornography to cope with that, to try and escape the temporary pain. And there's studies that show a correlation between the amount of anxiety that people are dealing with and the amount of porn that they consume. But then, rather than being a solution, pornography is a pseudo solution because like I said, it often leads or leaves people dealing with more of that shame, more of, of that depression, and then it drives you even more and more into pornography. And it's such a brilliant evil strategy of hell to get people hooked, to continue to go back to it again and again.

Yeah. So what we go after in the short run that does have a payoff that creates some of the feel good brain chemicals and all that in the long run is hurting us and is becoming part of the very problem that we were maybe seeking it out for in the first place. And it's. Yeah, I like how you say that. Like a unique double bind and I think really a master strategy of hell to get people stuck in something that maybe they never saw coming. But by the time they're stuck in it, in a sense it's already too late because it's now become a, a challenge that's contributing to its own growth and its own struggle in our life.

I was having a conversation recently with a friend who was talking about something similar and she was talking about a sermon that she listened to and the pastor was saying how the enemy wants to convince us that the poison is the cure, but the poison isn't the cure in the same way that pornography isn't the cure. But yet in the moment we feel like this is going to be the cure to make me feel happy, make me not feel lonely, all of the things. And yet that's then become this really empowering phrase for her to just help her recognize that the poison is not the cure. So I think it fits here.

And dealing with mental health, I mean, last year 29% of Americans said that at some point in their life they had actually been diagnosed with depression. And that's up from in 2015. It was 19% of depression of Americans. And if you've ever walked through depression, just it can be so painful, like gloom doom. I mean, it's not always like that. You can have mild depression where you're losing interest in, in life and trouble finding satisfaction and what used to bring you satisfaction. But I've experienced depression where it's just this feeling of intense grief. The way I describe it is it's almost as if I lost everybody I know I lost all my friends, all my family, my job, my house burned down. Like how you would feel except circumstantially nobody died. My house was still there, but emotionally I was feeling the level of pain. It was like a 10 out of 10 pain. And so no wonder escaping that, an instant fix, trying to medicate that is going to be so tempting for people today when the amount of people dealing with anxiety, depression and just want relief is so high.

One of the issues that is I think contributing in so many ways to this, I want us to talk about a little bit right now is the prevalence of social media. And I think particularly for young adults, that to be on multiple platforms multiple times a day is just normal life. And so what are the connections you are seeing, Ben, between social media use and then pornography and mental health challenges?

Well, I'd say that accidental exposure on social media to pornography is higher than it's ever been. With X recently, getting rid of all law, laws or regulations of pornography. I would be on X and just scrolling and all of a sudden there was just an image of pornography and I'd have to scroll real fast, pass it, but that's nothing I've ever seen before. I think there's laws cracking down and cracking down and whatnot. But, you know, I'm not trying to make a political statement, but in the name of free speech, it's. Some of these scenes have been become more accessible to people under the age of 18 who shouldn't be coming across pornography on social media. And so even if they weren't introduced by friends on the school bus or going over to their friend's house or an older sibling, the amount of people who can be exposed to this at a much younger age is, is so much higher. And then of course, the shame associated with it, both the curiosity and the shame. And when we don't talk about it, when we don't porn proof our kids and help them know not if they see pornography, but when they see pornography, what to do to talk to an adult, to come to their parents to know that they won't be shamed, but that their parents want to protect them from, from the harm of pornography. If we're not having those conversations, then it can so easily lead to an addiction in somebody's life because the draw of it and the dopamine released is, is so high.

Yeah, I think what we're hearing a lot in groups or as I interact with men that are walking in recovery, the way that social media creates or reinforces some of those negative self messages that create our mental health challenges because we can see a world that people present, put their best foot forward more often than not. And their Instagram reel is their last vacation and it's their ideal images and pictures of themselves. You don't see the 50 images they deleted where they looked funny with their mouth awry. You see this one glamour shot like, man, they look so good and they're on vacations all the time and their life is so much better than mine. And if comparison or if feeling good enough or feeling wanted, feeling belonging is some of our core struggle, then going on social media has a way of completely reinforcing all the negative side of, yeah, there's something wrong with you, you're not enough, you don't measure up. And then ironically, on that same platform that is causing the mental health challenges and the false core beliefs that I'm tempted to listen to are then the very outlets that I might seek out to look for provocative images or go down these rabbit trails that lead to and worse places where now I'm using that same site to kind of numb out what I'm feeling, that all is being created from going to that same place. So it kind of becomes this unique combination of both the things that trigger my Struggle and my problem. And then also the place that triggers the way that I deal with it all gets wrapped into one and I think can become a reason that many in group will initially, their approach is like, I just have to be off completely. And I'm not saying everybody should do that for all time, but I think in early recovery we just see that very often there needs to be a healthy break, a separation from that whole world, so that I can kind of figure out what's going on in my mind and my body and have a reset so that at the right time I can integrate those things into my life in a way that is healthy, that does create connection and doesn't actually contribute to the very mental health problems that I'm trying to address.

SUE I think that that is a really great segue into our next question, which is how does excessive pornography use and social media distort a person's perception of relationships, intimacy and sexual.

I have a fresh example because I was at the doctor today, he's also a surgeon, and I was asking him, what are you seeing today? He's a Christian. So we naturally started talking about the harms of pornography. And he was sharing that. I mean, besides porn induced erectile dysfunction, we know statistically one in three men, young men, are dealing with porn induced erectile dysfunction. He was saying that he's seen so many people besides how it affects them relationally, like the isolation and harmful view of sex, things like that. He was seeing problems with pregnancy with so many of these men because it was affecting their, not just their ability to ejaculate, but their sperm. And I had never come across that before in research that some infertility issues are being caused by pornography. And so he kind of gave me this fresh perspective of just the extent to biologically how pornography is harming young men today. But of course, we know that the. The average type of pornography that people are viewing is going to be violent, it's going to have aggression, it's going to involve choking in and slapping. And there are so many articles about how teenagers today, that is their view of sex. And then so many young women are being harmed and wanting nothing to do with it because of what is being expected and what is people are assuming is the norm. I remember coming across a study a couple of years ago about how the majority of young people, when asked what was the. Where have you learned the most about sex? And they said pornography. And so what we're seeing is people being exposed to things they were never meant to be exposed to. At an early age become addicted. We also know that the amount of young people today dealing with anxiety and depression, 70% of young people say anxiety and depression is a major issue amongst their peers. We're seeing pornography and mental health struggles among young people go hand in hand. And it's leading people to isolation. I believe it's leading people to take their own lives. We're seeing continually that the second leading cause of death among young people is suicide. And so many people are feeling shame because of what they're caught up in. And equally they're not knowing how much they're loved and valued. They're not knowing that they're created in the image of God, that they have hope and a purpose, and that they are irreplaceable. And a lot of times we don't do a great job of talking about that. As Christians, I like to say we tend to major on our sinnerhood and not major on our sainthood. But all throughout the New Testament you'll see Christians referred to as new creations, as saints, and that's an identity label. We take on the identity as Christians, but we struggle to take on the identity as saint or new creation. For some reason we still cling to sinner. And for a lot of people, they interpret that as, oh yeah, I'm just such a stupid sinner and I'm worthless and nobody really cares about me. God loves me, he doesn't really like me, he just tolerates me. And so I think at the core of a lot of these things is shame and people not knowing that they're loved and valued, but it not being modeled to them. As Henry Cloud says, what's outside is supposed to become inside. And so growing up, social media, pornography, parents, distracted, isolation, loneliness, a lack of attunement, a lack of responsiveness from parents, people, young people are interpreting it that they don't matter, that they're not good enough. And so of course anxiety, depression, loneliness, pornography are going to be at an all time high.

Yeah, I appreciate you mentioning some of those stats, Ben, and looking at what's happening in our young generations and in our world. And I think it's important that we look at that reality because it's such a shaping factor of how young people, I mean, and let's be honest, how all of us might see ourselves or interpret the world because we perceive that what's on social media or maybe is being presented on websites through pornography is reality, when so often it's a very, very distorted view. You know, that in the data we did with Barna Last year, a group of youth pastors were asked about their perceptions of where young people should be learning about sexuality and where they think in reality they are. And the number one answers I think wouldn't surprise us. They said that it should be and dad. And then they said the church and school, so kind of the home education that should be taking place and then the institutions that have been designed by God in the church to be formative and then schools that are meant to have that educational arm like those are healthy places we might expect. And then they were asked, but where do you think teens are getting their education on sexuality? And their top three answers were social media, pornography and their friends. And I think about the friends I had when I was 15 and 16 and 17 and we had some good times together. But if they were the sole source of my understanding, along with social media and pornography, of how I viewed myself, how I viewed the opposite sex, what the value of relationship was, what was supposed to happen in relationship, that would have been a very, very unhealthy way of viewing the world. And even as I look back, I can acknowledge those friends did influence me. But thankfully I also had the positive influences of parents in the church and the school that had created some healthier frameworks that were at least in competition with one another. But I think when we see that man, social media and pornography are shaping people's perception of sexuality, that's going to create deep mental health challenges as well, because it kind of shapes us in ways that are not realistic and that don't create lasting relationship. They serve the pleasure of the moment, the me centered kind of needs of our world, but they don't support us for the kind of life we want to live. And then we see the mental health challenges coming as a result of that.

I think that it's important for parents to just recognize what's happening and what's out there and what their kids are being exposed to and at Pure Desire. We've tried to help with that in creating like the parent training course, which is helping parents, like equipping parents to be able to talk about sex in a really normal way and talk about pornography and the harms of it with their kids and then also with the youth leader library, which is equipping youth leaders and pastors to also be able to come alongside teens and help them understand what pornography is doing and really in a lot of ways help them understand a biblical and godly view of sexuality. Because if all they're learning is from pornography, they're not going to get that?

Yeah. So, Ben, you talked about those stats, and I'd love to hear your perception or thoughts on why you think we're seeing such a rise in the number of individuals, particularly young people, young adults who are struggling with mental health issues. And I know the temptation is maybe to say, oh, it's the big bad Internet and social media, but in some ways that's kind of a simplistic answer that I know in the ministry and the work you do, you're trying to go a little deeper into what is it doing in the heart and the soul and the mind. And so just talk about that a little bit. Why are we seeing such an exponential rise in some of these mental health challenges?

There's an amazing book by. I forget his name. There's an amazing book called the Anxious Generation. And how he summarizes. How the author summarizes what has happened in the past 10 years with the smartphone is two things. First, there has been overprotection within the home, meaning people are growing up without facing some of the things that would make them resilient. You know, if. If you've. You've heard the term helicopter parents, preventing kids from facing challenges that are going to help them develop the resilience to face that anxiety, to overcome that task. And what that does is if you're not. If there's not a struggle, there can't be progress. If you're not faced with these challenges, you're not going to grow. And we have sheltered children from being able to learn that they do have what it takes. They're made in God's image, they are creative, they can think, they can learn to ration and reason for themselves and overcome things. And if we don't allow kids to face those challenges, then they're going to get really anxious whenever they have a big challenge coming up because they haven't experienced overcoming things in the past. They don't know how to overcome them in the future. And then the second thing he talks about is an under protection online. And so we've just given kids smartphones, endless access to the world. And we were created for the size of a village. We weren't created to constantly, every time we check our phone, see this bad thing happen here, this war happening here. We're living in this constant state of fear because we're seeing everything that's happening around the world all at once. I don't think God intended our brains and our souls to experience that. And more so the lack of protection online, the lack of filters, people coming across, pornography People coming across adult content, things they're not supposed to see causes the intrigue and can lead to pornography addiction. So I think what he's talked about is. Is so brilliant. But then there's been, of course, timeless principles. People have been dealing with anxiety, depression, mental health challenges, addiction, trauma since the Garden of Eden. And we see this throughout the life of Job, who experienced such suffering and trauma. He became so depressed that he wished he died at birth. We see Elijah becoming suicidal. We see David and the psalmist talking about struggling with anxiety and depression. So many things throughout the Bible. God, I think, goes to such extent to show us the reality of living in a fallen world and the anxiety and depression. Mental health struggles don't mean you lack faith, don't mean you don't love Jesus enough, Don't mean you're not surrendered to the power of the Holy Spirit enough. No. We live in a broken world, and we experience broken things all around us and in us. And so I think we see the rise because of overprotection in the home, under protection, online, but also what has always been there. And that's trauma, that's lack of bonding that happens in childhood with parents. That's unmet needs that lead us to desiring some way of finding the love, the acceptance, the affirmation, or even the escape from pain in our life.

It's interesting to think about the ways that struggle creates resilience, that having to work towards something and figuring it out creates a mental fortitude to say, I can do these things. Even something as simple as I think of my childhood, pre Internet, as old as I am, and going, you know, to your parents, if you said, I'm bored, what they do, like, we'll go outside and I'll see you at dinner time. And they'd send me outside. I'm like, well, now what do I do? And we would figure out things to do, dig in the dirt, ride bike, and just. You kind of found ways to occupy your time. And often it meant finding a friend, getting together at the playground, doing something in a small group. It just became a way of life. Where now, and I know even in some of our parenting, as I look back on when our kids were little, you know, they're bored, and you're like, well, watch this video, you know, play this game, and just hand them something that in a sense does work, it creates a quick fix for their boredom, but without realizing, like, how is this maybe reinforcing in their brain, that when I'm bored, I just pick up a screen and I numb out to something that doesn't really teach me how to be in control of my emotions or what to do when I don't have a plan, maybe how to work hard or resolve conflict. It just shows me this is how I spend my time as being on a screen, you know, and then when they're young adults or teenagers, like, why are you always on your screen? It's like, oh, well, maybe some of my parenting taught them that that's how you fill up your time and your life. And I do think we're arriving at a time now where as a society we're seeing that there's great books like that coming out, whether we remember the author or not, that is saying like, hey, this way of raising kids isn't letting them naturally develop some of the skills needed to be healthy, functioning adults in a society that's not always easy and won't give them everything on a screen. So yeah, I think it's compelling to think about what might we do, whether in our own lives with our behaviors, or if we are in the role of raising kids or working with young people. What does it look like to invite appropriate challenge so that they learn and grow and develop? I think in ways that God designed the human brain to develop.

I'm in that season of life where I have grandkids and so it's been interesting and they're all little still, but it's been interesting to hear my sons and daughters in law say, oh well, we're not. They say no screen time until 2 years old. And in fact no screen time until 5 years old. And so just thinking through that, that, I mean, we didn't sit our kids in front of the screen the same way that people do today, but just for them to have that awareness that screen time when they're babies is not a good thing for them even until they're five years old. And I just think that that is really phenomenal.

Yeah. So Ben, as a follow up question to that, because I've heard this attitude still from some and even from Christian parents who feel like when it comes to pornography or sexuality, like, well, hey, nobody taught me anything. And they might even feel like our conversation is reinforcing this belief that like my kid just needs to figure it out themselves. And if they struggle, they struggle, but they'll figure it out. It's not really my role to try to parent them. How do you encourage a parent that's maybe taking that attitude of, well, let them struggle through porn and they'll figure it out. Where might they be missing a connection with the role that they can play to help their kids in ways they didn't receive that help.

It can be challenging, I think, when we think about, oh, I didn't receive any instruction and I turned out okay, or I turned out fine, and so that's okay for my child. But I challenge you to think about the responsibility of parenting and how the number one form of discipleship that God has in mind is the home, is the family. And so it's may you not, may you not neglect the responsibility. Sometimes I sit back and think about how in Scripture it says we will be held accountable to God for every word, for all of our behavior, for all of our action. I think about the parable of, of the talents. And raising a child is a huge responsibility and a talent God is giving you. And so, you know, think about that day you'll stand before the Lord. Do you want to be able to say, I did the best I could, I gave more than I was given. I read books on parenting, I had conversations with other people. And also, don't you want to protect and provide for your son or your daughter? You know, one thing I Learned from Josh McDowell is every time God says no, throughout Scripture, he offers two positive principles, provision and protection. And God wants to protect us from the harm relationally, that happens emotionally, that happens from sexuality and sex outside of God's way. And he wants to provide for us what is going to be the most satisfying and fulfilling as we, as we walk in his ways. And so think about what you could protect your son or your daughter from and how you could provide for them like God provides for us.

I really like that.

Yeah. So in other words, challenge your kids through struggle, but not with the struggle of sin, not to struggle with pornography on their own. That in those areas we're given to each other as helpers and we don't have to allow them to learn the hard way like we did in this area. You know, maybe let them learn the hard way in riding their bike. Something like that would be an appropriate, appropriate place to exercise that principle.

And I mean, as an analogy, don't hear me saying, throw them in the deep end, go with them step by step, age appropriate. And so, like, if they're learning how to, you know, to swim, you're going in the baby pool with them, you're taking them each step of the way, but slowly you're letting go. I remember a couple years ago seeing a friend teaching his 2 year old how to swim. And slowly he would inch back a Foot further and she would swim to him. And he was attuned, he was focused on her. If she at any point started freaking out, crying, feeling unsafe, he would, you know, jump in and alleviate that for her. But by slowly stepping back, he was giving her the ability to grow and to face those challenges and develop competency. I know Henry Cloud talks about one of the big areas in our lives that we need to heal and grow is the area of competency. And that happens through learning that we have what it takes, practicing our autonomy, being given the freedom to fail and to make mistakes. But we need parents step by step helping us develop that, that, that competency.

So Ben, do you think that there are certain personality traits or mental health conditions that make someone more susceptible to porn use or social media rather than other types of coping behaviors?

Well, what's kind of interesting about mental health struggles like anxiety is when we look at it kind of like on paper, anxiety is really addictive. It's your body, it's your brain releasing all of these neurochemicals and it's, it can create this almost like high, it doesn't feel good all the time. But anxiety can almost become this addictive sensation and feeling in our body. Just like addiction can. It's addiction process addictions at least are always releasing this flood of neurochemicals in our brain as well. That's not to say that anxiety is sin or an addiction, but I just want to point out the similarity there and how quickly things like anxiety can rewire our brain. We can develop patterns of returning to it again and again. Our fight or flight system going off, trying to protect ourselves and that rewiring our brain. And that's why anxiety can be so hard to overcome. Because it's like in a split second, all of these neurochemicals, all these chemicals are being released all throughout our body. And it can take time and practice to learn how to calm our brains, calm our body, calm our nervous system. But I definitely think there's a correlation there because so many people of the type of people struggling with pornography and mental health issues or even just compulsive behaviors. Because in all the research, so much of what we're seeing is just this, this trauma, these unmet needs that lead somebody into pornography, that leads somebody to deal with anxiety or depression. Big T trauma, little T trauma. I know you all talk about this quite a bit, but we all experience little T trauma in life. We all live outside of the Garden of Eden. We all experience whether it's bullying or being let down or Our imperfect parents who aren't always meeting our needs, growing up, especially early on in childhood, are sometimes distracted. Things like that that are consistent can. Can cause these unmet needs, leading to these, these deep lies, these feelings of aloneness, of being worthless, of abandonment. And I've been reading and researching so much more about the power of rupture and repair and how rupture is going to happen. Toddlers are going to feel like you miss them or you will miss them. You're not going to be perfectly attuned to your kid and always know how to meet their needs perfectly. But repair is so key in preventing the trauma they're experiencing from going on in and on. And so I'm seeing unmet needs living outside of the Garden of Eden. Anxiety being a way that your fight or flight system tries to protect you from harm happening again in the future, perceived harm from happening again in the future. Pornography being a way of coping with the harm we experience. So much correlation between the two issues.

Yeah. So it's maybe asking or less trying to identify the personality type and looking more at the commonality of trauma and pain in our past. And if we're asking, like, what makes me susceptible to mental health challenges or what makes me susceptible to addictive behaviors, it often is the story of trauma and what we have seen, the unaddressed story of trauma. I think I've heard the quote and I'll probably mess it up, but it's something like, you know, don't ask, why the behavior, why the addiction? Ask why the pain? Because asking why there's the pain. There is what becomes the pathway into understanding what's driving those behaviors. And I. I think in many Christian homes and contexts, we've learned to live in a functional way where we don't feel like we're walking around daily in pain, but maybe we do realize, man, I've got tons of anxiety, I have tons of anger issues, I've got tons of really depressive ways of thinking and funks that I get in. And we think of that as negative, but we haven't really been given the skill set or as you said, the competency to see what might actually be creating that challenge I'm facing. It could be the unaddressed pain. And that pain may not be something dramatic like a broken home or those sorts of more obvious traumas. It may be the little T traumas that over time had a similar impact on our way of viewing ourself and our value, worth and identity that now are creating the ongoing mental health challenge. And so I think that's an opportunity that we can all take out of this is if I'm battling with something I don't fully understand, there's an invitation to go back and say, what's driving this? Where's the pain? And how might I identify that deeper wounding as a pathway to see where I most need to understand God's goodness in my life and my identity in Christ. And the good things you were talking about earlier, our belonging in Christ as saints, to just apply those terms or ways of thinking kind of hypothetically or in a big picture way isn't nearly as important as when we identify the pain messages and in those very places of pain can then identify those healing words and the messages that God has of who we are. That's, I think, where they really become transformational messages. Because it's not just that Nick as a person is a saint, it's that even in this place of pain, Christ there is calling me his child, his saint. And I'm seeing myself through a new light even in those difficult places.

I really appreciate you talking so much about our, our response to trauma and our fight or flight response that a lot of times creates this anxiety, but also releases cortisol and all of these things that God designed our brain for our survival and for us to utilize when we were in danger. But today it seems like people are living in this chronic state of unprocessed or untreated trauma and they are living with anxiety and they're living with depression and all of these things that are having this long term impact on their brain and their body and their mental health. And really in a way that we were never supposed to live in those systems or with those systems on chronically. And I think that that is part of the issue too that people are experiencing is that, I mean, God created our brain perfect and to work perfectly, but we don't live in a perfect world. And so there's going to be these side effects or this impact of the way that it affects us and the way we live.

Yeah, and I, I think what's interesting about what you just said is, is we see that clearly with David on the run from King Saul in First and Second Samuel, he's riddled with anxiety. Saul's trying to take his life, he's hiding in caves. And what an analogy for so for how many or for, for how we live. So many times on the run, there's ways that we're hiding in caves, but no wonder we're anxious. Our body was meant to be at rest to have other people attuned to us, other safe people, to help regulate us, especially in childhood when we're dysregulated. But. But it's like people are living, speeding up, ticked off, on the run, anxious. And then our brain adapts to that and we learn to live in this state of fight or flight and it just becomes the new normal. And then we go to doctors. And rather than saying, what needs to change in my life? How do I need to slow down? What needs to change in my thinking? I don't have to believe everything I think. I don't have to worry about everything I think I can take my thoughts captive. I can do what Jesus said in Matthew 6 and start looking around at the birds of the air and slowing down. It's kind of similar to mindfulness where I'm slowing down, I'm being present, I'm not thinking about tomorrow, I'm focusing on today. We just slap a band aid on bullet holes. When through discipleship. Following Jesus is a life of margin, is of saying no because we're not God, of needing to rest because he rests on the seventh day. And so I know in my life, after I went on a sabbatical in 2021, a lot of things changed. Saying no to a lot more. More things. Wanting to make it the long run in ministry. I've been in ministry for 14 years, but the way I was living, speeding up, anxious. I wasn't looking at pornography, but I was coping in other ways. And my mental health was tanking. And I realized that if the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace and patience, and I'm not exhibiting love, joy, peace and patience, what does that say? That. What does that say about what I'm walking in? I'm not walking in the power of the spirit. I'm not truly following Jesus. Moment by moment, I'm walking in the flesh. I'm living sped up. And what's coming out of that is not pretty.

Yeah. So Ben, you're talking about these connection points in our mental health challenges and also overcoming sexual addiction. What would you say are some of the similarities because of that in how recovery will look? What does it look like in either field to grow and to be in recovery, whether mental health challenges or overcoming sexual addiction?

You know what's interesting for me is in 2014, when I did the year long outpatient process with Dr. Ted Roberts, I wasn't. I had been sober from porn and masturbation for a year. And the way we were seeing trauma showing up in my life, that Year was through anxiety, depression, obsessive compulsive disorder. There was other coping mechanisms as well. But when you truly get to the root of why you do what you don't want to do, as you truly start understanding your story and how our idols in life reveal our wounds, then you'll start to see that everything's connected. You know, it's like I am reacting to that from the past. I'm dealing with that in this way. And there's more similarities than not to our. The cycles we go through to how we react to things, to how we cope with things. And so if we can start slowing down in naming and understanding how we got there, how we return to that thing again, what set us off and if we could be, you know, kind to ourselves, if we can be curious, I think about how in Romans it says the kindness of God leads us to repentance. To repent means to turn around. I mean, to change our mind. But that leads to a change of hearts, a change of action from sin. But there's also that that model of God is kind to us. We can be kind to ourselves. We can question rather than condemning ourselves. And so it, it looks similar, you know, recovering from porn addiction and ongoing healing and freedom from mental health struggles. It's. You need supportive community. We were created in the image of God by a triune God, Father, son, Holy Spirit. 100 times the new Testament mentions one another, pray for one another, confess your sins to one another. We need one another to encourage us, to help us, to support us. Second thing is Proverbs 4, 23, Guard your heart for everything you do flows from it. We need a question. What has happened to our heart? How has it been wounded in this fallen world? And how to either protect ourselves or in response to the pain, are we coping with that? Are we responding to that pain through grief, through shame, through pornography, through anxiety, through depression? You know, so many of those coping mechanisms or responses to the pain are, are interlinked and then start identifying how we go through the same processes again and again. We talk about at the resolution movement, how mental health challenges are like lights on the dashboard. They're not random, they're not meaningless. They're signaling to something deeper, something that needs attending to in your life. And so the reason you're feeling anxious today isn't just because of some random biological thing happening in your body. Yes, our brains and body are connected and our brain is part of it. But there are things we that are coming up in the present that have to do with the Past things that made you anxious in the past over and over again create fixed neurological pathways. Your brain wants to protect you. It's looking for safety that's causing more and more anxiety in, in the future. And depression is a way so often of responding to this pain that we've experienced the trauma that we've experienced. And oftentimes, at least in my life and people I've worked with, depression is about eventually turning inward and believing lies of hopelessness, of worthlessness, that things, things can't get better in life and making agreements with those. And so those three things are how I would say that recovery from pornography or sexual integrity issues are very similar to healing and freedom when it comes to our mental health challenges.

Yeah, I'm over here writing down the, you know, pastoral alliteration of if, if we realize our need for people, if we grab hold of God's promises, we identify the pain, we got the three P's we can work on. But yeah, I think it's an, and a point to be made, Ben, that no matter what we're dealing with, we're probably going to face some common needs in terms of recovery. And just the ways that we as communities, in our churches, in our homes and our friend circles can realize, like, we all need this, like to some degree, we all need healthy community. We all need reminders of who God is and what he's doing in our life. We all need help to not turn in, in a crisis, but to trust others and to face the old messages we're hearing. And if we kind of walk in that, whether it's our recovery for someone else, I think we could become a part of what God wants to do in our world because it's all connected. And I think the more we talk about it, the more I'm just seeing that man. We're all on the same journey together and our needs are so similar.

So what would you say is the role of isolation when it comes to pornography use and social media? And how does it contribute to a person's emotional distress or detachment from real world connections?

I think isolation could also be called loneliness because loneliness is not a lack of friends, it's a lack of meaningful connection. And when you go to pornography again and again and feel shame, you want to isolate from yourself and what you're feeling and the shame you want to isolate from other people, you want to isolate from God or your spouse.

And.

And so in those times you are experiencing deep loneliness because people don't know the pain of the shame that you're experiencing. And the lies that you are telling yourself or believing you're so isolated, you're so lonely because you're not having meaningful connection. And so pornography fuels that isolation, that loneliness. And then the desire to go to pornography again, to escape it can create this cycle again and again. We see this with social media too, that it's so easy rather than taking the time to meaningfully, meaningfully connect with somebody, to just check out, to get on social media, to doom, scroll, to constantly get the hit of dopamine. I think about the discovery algorithm now with social media that's on so many platforms where the majority of what you see is not necessarily from people you follow. And so you can swipe, scroll, scroll, and you never know what video you're going to see next. And it's just this constant hit of dopamine, this constant variety. Just like pornography where it's constant dopamine, constant variety. And that could be, can become such an addictive routine to people rather than after a long hard day. You're, you have things that you need to process. There's things in your soul that need to be seen by other people and affirmed. And you need the affirmation of feelings. That's something we talk about a lot. Mourn with those who mourn, celebrate with those who celebrate. As the scripture says, that destroys loneliness. When somebody sees you in your celebration and celebrates with you, when somebody mourns with you because they see you mourning, you feel known, understood, affirmed. And that gets rid of the loneliness you might be feeling because you feel that connection. But with social media, with pornography, it's so easy to isolate, it's so easy to return to those patterns again and again. So easy to take the quick fix of the dopamine and the endless scrolling in variety rather than doing the hard work at times of fulfilling what your soul was designed to experience, which is true connection.

Yeah, it occurs to me that loneliness has been a problem even before we added sin to the equation. You know, Adam in the Garden of Eden, God said, not good for man to be alone. That Adam was experiencing a level of isolation, of just, I'm made for relationship, I'm made for other people. And he had, as far as we would understand it at that moment, a perfect and unbroken relationship with his heavenly father. And God said there is an aloneness here still that is not good. And so when we recognize our human need for meaningful connection with other people from the get go, and then we add to it the fuel, the negative fuel of social media use or pornography, it just further drives that loneliness, which is already not good for us, into deeper and deeper places. And so recovery, you know, we, we talk about it for some listeners, they're probably like, man, I, I love this podcast, but they're always telling me to get in a group, they're always telling me to join a community and I'm just like, I'm just here to kind of get some help and some ideas. But we keep coming back to it because we've seen in so many areas of life like, like community really is the answer. It's coming out of the places of isolation and shame and secrecy. And apart from that, if we don't come out into community where we're experiencing freedom from shame and secrecy and isolate, we're going to keep getting more of what we've got. So we can have all the podcasts and self help tools, but if sooner or later those don't include other people, it can only take us so far. And so, Ben, I appreciate the reminder of that. And as, as we wrap up today, what kind of final encouragement would you give to someone? And maybe in particular, if we focused more just on the topic of mental health and pornography and what recovery looks like, what does it look like to be a helper? That if we're seeing someone in our world that we have concerns about their mental health and maybe it's over social media use or pornography use, we feel like they're going through some challenges. What could we do to be a helpful part of someone else's journey? What, what kind of encouragement would you give to people? As we wrap up today?

One of the themes is, I've asked Kurt Thompson this question. If anyone listening is familiar with his work. What is the most important thing that a parent can do for their child struggling with mental health? And he said, engage their own story. Dan Allender says you can't take others further than you have gone yourself. And so rather than seeing this as, you know, if you're a parent with a teenager struggling or child struggling with mental health, rather than seeing it as their issue or something to be fixed, see this as a product of a larger, what do you call it, microcosm, that as you engage your story and your life, you're going to be so much more attuned to them and know how to help them so much more and to come alongside them. And so that's, that's one of the things I would say. The second thing I would say is never underestimate the power of simply, or the power of your presence of being a person who Feels what they feel. I think of the word compassion, which means to alleviate suffering. But in these instances, empathy means to feel what somebody else is feeling. Sympathy is. You see what they're feeling and you sympathize with them, but you're not feeling it. Empathy, empathizing with them, sitting with them. I think about Job and all the suffering he went through and the bad advice from his friends of your sinning or them trying to fix him. And at the end of the book, Job or God says that Job did everything right, meaning Job took the time to process what he was going through, to let himself feel, to wrestle with God. And if we can be those people like Jesus in John 11, when he, you know, Jesus wept. He wept when he saw, not first when he heard about Lazarus's death, but when he saw the pain of Lazarus's sisters, he knew there was a solution. He knew he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead in a couple minutes, but he was present and he wept. And he didn't try and fix their tears. He didn't try and change them. And so there's so much healing that happens, even on a biological level, when somebody. When you're anxious, when you're disregulated and somebody is so loving and regulated and with you and not going anywhere, that helps your body become regulated and learn how to be regulated and less anxious. And so if we are people of Jesus who are compassionate, who are empathetic, and who mourn with those who mourn, never underestimate what that that can do for someone.

Amen. The power of presence. Being with someone, carrying that load with them. Such important things. Heather, any things from you as we wrap up today.

You know, earlier we were talking about the importance of community, you know, being in a group or being around other people. And it doesn't have to be a lot of people, because I know that sometimes I can feel anxious being around a lot of people, but just having one or two people who know everything about you, who is a person that you could call night or day when you're struggling, the first phone call that you make, like if something tragic happened, have just one or two people, and that's all you need. It doesn't have to be a big group of people, but there is so much importance about having somebody else who is, like you were saying, Ben, who sees you, who knows you, who walks out. Life with you is so important in this journey.

Yeah, well, Ben, these are major topics that I think we're all in the middle of right now. Social media, mental health, Challenges pornography. And we've just talked a lot today about the intersection of those three. And I hope for listeners it has produced, maybe hope that in these areas, the commonality, even while social media is kind of a new thing, and mental health challenges, the way they're exploding into our world, feel like a new thing. And sometimes new challenges overwhelm us to think, what are we going to do about this? And yet in so much what we talked about today, what I hear you saying is that the solutions are actually some of foundational things. We know our need for one another, our need to come out of isolation, to be an honest, authentic community at times, to slow down our bodies and our brains, to consider the birds of the air and to meditate, to pray, to connect with God and others, that those things are powerful remedies for the mental health challenges we face, for pornography issues, for the danger social media presents. And if we can keep these healthy ideals in front of us, then my hope is that we can be people who are leading the way into a healthier world. That, yes, does have more access to social media and through the Internet, probably more access to stuff we don't want to be seeing. But how do we navigate that in a way that keeps us connected to God and to one another? And we're in the midst of these seismic shifts in our world, but I think we're going to see how God uses that for good and to connect us in relationship with him and with one another. So I appreciate the way you stand in this space, for the way you offer your thoughts and insights. And it's been really a pleasure to have you as a guest today. Remind our listeners, I know we've had you on the podcast before, but just tell everyone where they could catch up with you and where they could hear more from Ben Bennett or find your stuff if they'd like to do that.

Yeah, for me personally, benbennett.org or you can go to nvbennett on all social media platforms and then with Resolution Movement resolutionmovement.org and at Resolution Movement on social media. And this year, if you want to dive deeper into the mental health conversation, each month we're focusing on a different topic. May obviously we're talking about mental health as a whole. And I'm doing a live teaching on Instagram. Each month we turn it into a podcast, which is on the Resolution Podcast on all platforms. Already talked about overcoming anxiety, already talked about overcoming depression. And I get a lot deeper into different ways we can overcome those topics. Specifically biblically, but also from Psychology in Neuroscience. So check all that out.

Yeah, that's awesome. So we will put the notes for both Ben Bennett and the Resolution Movement in the show Notes. And if if you're on social media, they're both a great follow can be a positive part of your experience online. So great to see you today, Ben, and we'll have to have you back again sometimes.

Thanks y'.

All. And if you are a fan of today's show, it would mean the world to us if you would subscribe, give us a like, share it with somebody, write us a review. These are all ways that more people can hear these life giving conversations. And if you want more information on pure desire, groups, counseling or resources, Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.

Sam.