411 - Jay Stringer on Mental Health, Healing, & Transformation

Foreign.

Listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors and healing from betrayal trauma. Today is episode 411, and here joining me throughout the series on mental health and recovery is Mrs. Heather Kolb. Heather, welcome back to the podcast. Another week on mental health and recovery. How are you doing this week?

I'm doing well. It's nice to be here again.

Yeah. Well, this series, I think, has been an important one. And we continue with some great conversation today with a friend of the show, Jay Stringer. He's been on a little bit and I think it's cool. This is 4 11, so give us the 41 1. On today's episode with Jay Stringer.

So a lot of what we talk about is integrating faith with mental health and. And with trauma and how those seem to intersect in our lives, but also how they can be a key understanding to the way we struggle and why we struggle. One of the things that I really appreciate about Jay is that he is very humble and very vulnerable when it comes to using his own personal experiences, even current struggles, to help us understand the why behind our unwanted behaviors.

Yeah. Jay talks a lot about the past and our story and our body. And for some listeners, that's like a quick connection. For others, those are maybe areas you're trying to understand. And I think Jay just does such a great job at articulating the common experiences that we've had and making it understandable to go, oh, there's a connection there. I mean, I found myself writing down some notes from my own story. So if you're able to listener, you know, have a pen or pencil handy, maybe some paper, open up your note app on your phone because I think this is more than a conversation to be listened to. It's one we should interact with as we start to understand pieces of our own story.

Yeah. And he gives great scripture references, great research references, talks about other psychologists in the field and the work they're doing. So definitely a great listen to.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know if he uses it, but Jay could also say, you know, welcome to your biblically based and clinically informed therapist. I'm Jay Stringer. Also some huge shout outs to little Deb Debbie that you'll hear in the episode. So we do apologize in advance if by the end of the episode you're adding Little Debbie oatmeal cream pies to your shopping list. But hey, there is. There's Good food. And then there's food we eat because we enjoy it. And Little Debbie's probably in that later category for sure. We're a big fan of Jay Stringer. He is a licensed mental health counselor, an ordained minister, and an acclaimed international speaker. His award winning book, which by the way you can get at the Pure Desire website, is Unwanted How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing. And it's the culmination of an extensive research project that delves into the stories of 3,800 men and women. The insightful book explores the underlying drivers of unwanted sexual behavior, offers valuable insights into why individuals may remain trapped in self destructive patterns, and provides strategies to overcome the burden of shame. And if you haven't read Unwanted, I can't recommend it highly enough. Grab it on the Pure Desire store today or at your local bookstores. So let's jump into our conversation today with Jay Stringer unraveling the why mental health, healing and transformation. All right, Jay Stringer, welcome back to the podcast. It is so good to have you.

Again, Nick and Heather, it's so good to be back on the podcast and good to see your faces.

Yeah, we are diving into a topic this month that is maybe in some ways similar to bringing up sexuality in the church and that's mental health and looking at the connection between those. And we know that's very a frequent topic in the work that you've done and clients you work with. And so let's jump into that. Your work focuses a lot on the intersection of mental health, trauma and unwanted sexual behaviors. So what led you to explore this connection? Like how did you get started in all of that?

Yeah, the first thing I think about is I went through puberty while attending a Southern Baptist high school. And so that was a very unfortunate experience. I'm also a pastor's kid and so I think growing up there was this really strong sense in me that if I was really captured by the gospel, like if I really understood who Jesus was and what he had done on my behalf and this power of the Spirit living in me, then somehow I would not be afflicted by mental health issues. I wouldn't be struggling to the degree that I was with pornography. And so there was almost this sense that like the gospel was supposed to empower me to just stop being doing all this stuff. And then at some point I remember being in seminary and we were doing kind of a Greek word study on the body. And so there's kind of two Greek New Testament words like sarks and soma and I remember one of my teachers talking about how Sarx is basically the. The type of body that, you know, can be killable, it's prone to disease, it's very vulnerable. And what she said is that you. Jesus takes on sarks. He. He takes on flesh and moves in. And that was one of the first times that I really began to think about, like, whoa. The gospel is not just about trying to empower me to escape something or to outgrow something. Like the God of the universe actually comes into my story, comes into what it means to have flesh and temptation and understanding. And I think that was a really big, big important reframe for me of the God. The universe enters into human history, enters into places of heartache and brokenness. And that was kind of like, I'm using the gospel to escape my story versus really allowing the Gospel to enter deeply into it. And as you all know so well, there's just so much within the church that tends to be mental health management and lust management. And that's the bounce. Your eyes dart, your eyes get into accountability, read a book about God's holiness to kind of, you know, redeem yourself, change yourself. But really, no one was really inviting me to go deeper into my story and see that, you know, there are so many aspects of my own life that, if truly entered, would help me to understand the gospel more and vice versa, that the more that I understand. Even if you take something like Jesus's holy week of Friday, Saturday and Sunday, Jesus knows trauma on Friday, he knows hell and Saturday, and he knows resurrection on Sunday. And so if we are really following the pattern of Jesus's life, I think that's an invitation to know our own Friday experiences in Saturday and Sunday. So I inherited a theology that really did not allow me to enter into my stories. So that's where I come from.

Yeah, I really like that. I resonate with that because I also grew up in a very conservative Baptist home and church, and there was almost the presumption that if we went to church, you know, three times a week, if we read our Bible, if we were in Bible studies, if we were doing all the right things, then we wouldn't struggle with anything. Then we wouldn't struggle with our sexuality, with mental health, with depression, even though nobody was talking about it. And so it was just kind of this covering of, okay, do all these things and you're golden. And it's very confusing. I mean, I remember even in high school being very confused, and especially when I would make big mistakes and think, well, then I Must not even be a Christian, because what I've been modeled. What's been modeled for me is perfection, and it doesn't exist. Or at least it doesn't exist in me.

Yeah. Yeah. I think we have a challenge because we do believe in a God that does miracles, and we've heard of miracles. We've maybe even seen miracles. But we also balance that with a real world where miracles don't happen in every single instance. You know, I think of the people that got to be at the feeding of the 5,000, and they watched this miracle like bread and fish just everywhere. And I wonder if, you know, the next day, any of them just sat at their table waiting for bread and fish to magically multiply because they'd seen that miracle, when in reality, every day for the rest of their life, they probably did the very gritty work of gathering grain, grinding it up, turning it into a flower, making bread like they still understood there was work to be done. And I think sometimes we fall into that with both mental health, with things like unwanted sexual behavior. We do believe in a God that could miraculously heal a brain, transform a way of thinking, and maybe we've seen that. But at the same time, there is a lot of work to be done, some gritty work of figuring out what's going on here, what's driving this, what happened in my life or in my body that led to this story. And that being willing to enter into that doesn't deny the miraculous power of God at work, but it recognizes sometimes we're invited to be a part of that work. And that both lead to the outcome of whether Jesus fed the 5,000 miraculously or the person made the bread themselves. Both led to being fed in a sustaining way. You know, and a miraculous healing from a mental health issue or a porn issue is freedom. But also walking through a process with a group or a therapist or a friend of understanding what's going on here, that also can lead to freedom. And so I think what we're talking about here and what I hear in your story, Jay, is just connecting the dots, that just because I believe in a God of miracles doesn't mean I wait around and do nothing and just expect him to magically fix me. I enter into that work and understand these things in a way that creates transformation. Yes.

Yeah. So well said by both of you.

Yeah. So many people struggle with shame around mental health. And so how can understanding our stories help us to move toward healing instead of self condemnation?

Mm. Yeah. So I think of, you know, curiosity helps us to understand that the struggles of our life are not random. And so this is backed up by, you know, whether you're looking at scripture or there is this study called epigenetics, which is basically the study of gene expression. And so in some of the epigenetic studies that have been done, they have shown where, you know, if you put water fleas into the water with a predator, like, basically introduce a predator into the water fleas, the next generation of water fleas will be born with these, like, horned or helmeted heads. And that trait will persist until the predator is removed from the water. So if you're waking up as this water flea being like, why do I have this horned head? It's not random. It was due to the predators that were in the water with regard to their parents. And so we see that with life expectancy, with issues like obesity, heart disease, like, these issues are not random. And so when we're reading scripture in Deuteronomy 5 and we hear that the sins of our parents are passed down to the third and fourth generation, that's what it's speaking to, is that these struggles are not random. And so when I think about, you know, just even someone like Jacob in the Old Testament, where he struggles his entire life with identity, and what's the opening origin story is he's holding on to the heel of Esau, and his parents. Parents basically name him Heel Grabber. Well, how do you think that's going to shape the trajectory of his life? So I think once we get curious about, you know, our stories, why is it that I struggle with this? Could it be possible that my mom or my dad also struggled with this? And instead of this just being something that plagued me, it's something that I also need to be able to overcome so that change and healing can persist within many different generations that follow me. So I think we have to have some level of curiosity with regard to the struggles that we have. And this is the best neuroscience and I think the best scripture as well, is that there is. There's an interplay between the struggles that we have and the unaddressed and therefore unresolved stories that have marked our life.

I love that we could all be asking the question, what's in the water? What's in the water of my life, of my story? You know, whether I'm a water flea or a human being, it's understanding my experience, my family of origin, and as we've said on so many podcasts, not to cast blame or to make it somebody else's fault. But to create understanding. Because I think understanding does dismantle shame. And mental health, like sexual addiction or pornography struggles, I think do have that in common. Where if we struggled with it, there is a voice that's like, well, if you were only better, wouldn't struggle with this. When maybe there's a whole lot more going on. And that as I understand it, I start to get some, some handholds to see where, where it's coming from and what to do about it. But if I'm not willing to ask those questions or look at what's in the water, I might miss that completely and never really gain traction in my story because I'm just living under a shame narrative of this is somehow my fault. Or, you know, as you mentioned, Jacob, like, I wonder how much he wrestled with that of like, well, it's, you know, just shame on me for being a heel grabber as an infant. Like, was he because of his wicked heart, grabbing his brother's heel or that's just kind of the circumstance of his birth narrative. But that could easily have become a shame message for him. And I think we all have those where something we're not really responsible for. And again, not to eliminate blame or make it someone else's fault, but just to understand there's more going on here. And when we understand there's more going on, then I think we're invited into that work that leads to lasting change.

Yes. And I think that's when I look at the Old Testament, there's just so many examples of when God shows up or the angel of the Lord shows up. It's not full of condemnation. It's a sense of inquiry. Like, Adam, where are you, Jacob? What is your name? So if we are hearing the voice of God, I think we have to be hearing some level of curiosity about our struggles. God knows why we are struggling, but really he is inviting us to consider, you know, how did this current plot that I find myself in really come to be? And it's through our honest wrestling with our story that we come to see not just our own healing, but how committed God is to our own redemption.

Yeah, you know, I did just want to mention something about that scripture in Deuteronomy, because growing up in the church, I used to think that there was something kind of mystical or magical about that, as though if our parents, like, sinned in this grievous way, that our family would be cursed. And what I came to understand, and probably later than I should have, but understanding that it was just, it's learned Behavior, you know, the things that we learn because we're being raised in an environment by imperfect people, and even their wounds showing up in the way that they live, that we then pick up and carry them on without asking questions, without questioning anything, without being curious about, you know, why does everyone in our family do this or not do this? You know, and so there really isn't anything magical about just really comes from a practical understanding of the environment in which we were raised.

Yeah. And as Jay already mentioned, and epigenetics, that it literally does shape what's being passed on, not in a magical way, but in a, you know, a scientific, studyable.

Right.

Kind of way. Jay, we've already talked about it a little bit about how past experiences shape our present struggles. And whether that's mental health or addictions or unwanted behaviors, we've seen that to be true. So what are some of the key signs that our unresolved wounds are affecting our mental health today?

Yes. So to answer that, I want to weave in a couple definitions of trauma from Bessel Van Der Kolk and Peter Levine. So part of what Bessel Van der Kolk, the author of the Body Keeps the Score, talks about, as he says, that trauma is not just this event that happened to us long ago. It's the ongoing imprint of that event on us today. And so the other thing that Peter Levine says is that we do not so much know our trauma primarily through our memories, but far more our reactions. And that's a really important point, that if you are wondering about where your trauma or mental health struggles originated from, it could be very valuable to try and go back into the memory bank and remember past stories. And I am a big advocate of that. But one of the best ways that you can begin is to study your reactions to relationships, to experiences. So, you know, a couple examples would be, I have a 2010 4Runner. It's a pretty old car. Sometimes when I drop my kids off at school, there are those classic kind of New York families that have the Cadillac Escalade with their private driver. And they're getting dropped off, and you see all these kids come out, and I started feeling some sense of, I have a very old truck and starting to feel some level of shame, some level of, like, my kids, when they see their friends, they want to roll down the windows and, like, wave to them, call them out. And I find my body, like, just wanting to hide, and I'm like, what is happening? That I want my kids to shut up, and I don't want them to be seen I don't want to be seen. I want to drop them off a block or two away from school.

And it's kind of the reverse of the usual narrative. The kids are wanting that now. The dad's wanting that.

Yes, totally. And I'm like, what is happening? And I dropped my kids off and found a parking spot. And I'm like, what is going on? And the memory that came to me was, my son is in sixth grade, and I remember being in fifth and sixth grade, and we had a Dodge Caravan with the classic wood paneling around it, and we had that wood paneling car way later than most kids in our neighborhood. And I can remember, you know, being in the front seat with my mom or my dad driving. And, you know, the. Before the automatic seats, you could kind of pull the lever to go back. And I remember doing that when I would drive past kids in my neighborhood. And so that sense of, you know, my body was repeating a pattern that my, you know, trauma, this difficult experience that I had was not this past event. It was the ongoing imprint of that event on us today. And so, as I just mentioned, my son is 11, almost 12 years old. And the other day, he was wearing kind of Nike cargo pants and Adidas shirt and, I don't know, maybe a Yankees hat. And I was, like. Felt this inner reaction of, like, what are you wearing? You're gonna get made fun of for not having consistent brands going on. And I'm having this, like, controlling moment inside of me and feeling like I could get so close to shaming this kid. And again, where am I in my story? Well, I can remember being mocked for wearing cargo pants. I can remember so many experiences of wearing sports shirts or Adidas shirts and being mocked for not wearing Tommy Hilfiger or something that had a collar on it. And so all these experiences that I'm having, my reactions, my trauma, my shaming of my kids, they're not random events. They are reactions to where I come from. So, you know, if you are struggling with a type of judgment, like, I always screw up, like. Like, what the heck is wrong with me? Or you find yourself, like, you know, you can't fall asleep without pornography or an orgasm. Well, a lot of times what happens is we condemn ourselves in the present, and we don't really build that bridge between, why is this certain pattern of looking at porn or masturbating in order to fall asleep? Like, what story is that telling? And often what you'll find is that maybe you grew up in a home, that there was a lot of abandonment or a lot of humiliation and cruelty. And just as a sense of a 13 year old boy or girl, where is a lot of that stress and condemnation and shame and disengagement going to go? Well, you're gonna begin to find a way to dissociate, to numb, to be able to find your. So that sense of whatever your present day shame and reactions and self loathing is, is so often a clue into the unaddressed portions of your life. And I think that's really the point that we want to invite people into, is until that bridge is built from the present to the past and the past to the present, you're going to continue to fight a war without understanding the real battle that you're facing.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think that even just speaking personally, it's a lot easier for me to have something like that happen and that's just ignore it because I know that if I become curious about it, then it's going to require work and it's going to require me to perhaps even go into parts of my past that been there, done that, don't want to do it again. But yet it has to happen in order for me to be healthier in the present.

Yeah, well, and what I hear you saying, Jay, is that when we have maybe some negative mental health or challenges with really strong emotions, those in and of themselves are the signs that there's unresolved wounds. They're pointing back to some unresolved work in our life. And if we really, if we're willing, as you're saying Heather, to pay attention to that, we might learn a lot about what the connections are.

Indeed.

Yeah. So in your research you emphasize the importance of curiosity over self judgment, which we've covered a little bit of that. So how can someone shift from a mindset of shame to one of self compassion and curiosity? So what are some practical steps?

Well, one example that I love, that I've heard from a couple different people would be the mirror of Erised from Harry Potter. And if you know that story, Harry Potter is an orphan. And so when he looks into the mirror of Erised, which is essentially desire spelled backwards, what Harry Potter sees is an image of his parents. So that's his image. When his friend Ron Weasley looks into the mirror of Erised, what Ron sees is he's like the Quidditch champion, he's the head of the house, he's the king. It's kind of like a narcissistic high school fantasy. And what you find from Ron's backstory is that his brothers, you know, exceed excel far beyond him. He kind of feels inferior in a lot of ways. And so part of what the author is doing in that series is to say that the mirror of iriset is always reflecting back to us, our most ardent longings or wishes. And so I think part of what I would love to invite people into is, like, as you look into the mirror of your sexual searches, as you look into the mirror of your mental health problems, what is that mirror reflecting back to you? And why might that image be occurring? So, you know, when you come to a porn search, it's that sense of, why has this porn search been so appealing to me since the time I was 15? Or when I think back to the affair that I've been in or that I was in, why was it that this type of relational archetype was so appealing to me? Or when I think about, you know, the self loathing, whether it's unwanted behaviors, mental health, body shame issues, to really get curious about, why is it that I'm drawn to this particular thing or what is it that I'm trying to overcome? And so I think curiosity, as we've put before, is just so much more generative than some level of condemnation. So I think of, like, Romans 2, 4. Like, do you not know that it is the kindness of God that leads to change? Not self hatred, not willpower, not condemnation, but it's really kindness. But then the next phrase, why do you treat the kindness of God with contempt? And so most of us do not engage our problems, our difficulties with kindness. And I think if we did, it would really change the trajectory of our life.

Yeah, I think in some ways this question is answering itself. It is that curiosity, that willingness to ask questions. And you, you said it also about so many times in the Bible, when God shows up, he's not telling people something, he's asking them questions. I just got to do a little teaching in an adult Sunday school class on Elijah and that beautiful story where he goes to Mount Sinai to meet with God, which in that story means he probably traveled over 200 miles in a day and age. How long did that take him just so he could get to this place where he believed he could meet with God. And then God goes through this whole thing with him of the windstorm and a firestorm and an earthquake, and he's not in any of those. And then there's this gentle whisper. It's the voice of God. So there's this huge, long drama getting to this Point. It's like, man, whatever God wants to say next is probably really a big deal. And then what he does is he repeats a question he's already asked Elijah. He asks him again, like, Elijah, what are you doing here? And I see it as like he's really trying to help Elijah finally see his own motives, the owner, the lies that he's listening to. And it underscores for me how important that willingness to ask a hard question and actually give a really honest answer in the presence of God, in the presence of community, of really seeing it, how important that is. And so I think, yeah, that's just what stood out to me is that willingness to be curious and ask a really honest question and to give a really honest answer. How transforming that can be.

Yeah. And just back to the first question that you all asked me with regard to, you know, why this is. And God is capable of doing miracles. But that 200 miles is maddening, Nick, of just like 200 miles to answer a question. And I think there's so much in that journey of what transpires over that duration of time and in our own journey. And I think that's what God is deeply committed to, is asking those questions to us. So such a good insight, because I don't want to travel 200 miles. I just. I know it's solved.

Let's just do it right now. Yeah, for sure. A danger of our microwave society. Well, Jay, let's talk about another angle of this that I think plays into it. What role does attachment theory, you know, and understanding our attachment styles from childhood, what does that play into the way people engage with their mental health and relationships?

I love it. I think of, you know, Dan Siegel's work. And part of what Dan Siegel would say about attachment theory is that for kids to thrive, they need four S's to be seen safe, soothed, and secure. And so, you know, seen is really that sense of, you have a mother, a father, a caregiver that sees the things that brings you life and energy and vitality, and they scheme to be able to bring that to you. So it might be froyo when you're four years old. It might be your favorite clothing when you're in middle school, you know, a favorite event concert when you're in high school. But it's. It's to be seen with delight. But also what we need is not just synchronicity when we are experiencing longing and our desire, but also when we are in pain and in lament. So it's a sense of, like, when you got off the school bus and your face changed from when you left for school that morning, did you have a mother or father that were attuned enough to see you in pain and then, you know, could keep going? But let's look at that other, you know, s which is soothed? And so a good mother or father can see the distress, can see the dysregulation, and offer their attunement, offer their body, offer a good conversation to help bring a sense of regulation to us. And so if we did not receive sight, if we did not receive soothing safety and security, that is going to have immense implications for how we organize our life in the present. So a lot of times, unwanted sexual behavior might be the sense of no one sees me, no one understands me. My parents didn't see me. Now I'm in this marriage, and I'm not acknowledged or seen. And so I'm going to learn how to scan the horizon to look for someone looking for me. Because that desire was there in my childhood, and it was never addressed by the two people that God put on earth to be able to do that for me. So I feel somewhat justified in my unwanted behavior because finally someone saw me. And I've been a camel in the desert looking for someone trying to find me, offer me water, and I finally got some water. So that has huge implications on soothing on sight or if you think about soothing, people will often ask me, you know, is something like masturbation right or wrong? And I always take a developmental approach to it, which is, you know, when we are utero, we are touching ourselves. And that's not because we are masturbating in an adult sense. There's a sense of we're finding some level of soothing, some level of comfort. And so for a lot of times, a lot of my clients, when they first have an orgasm or they first try drugs for the first time, some of my clients will refer to it as like a warm hug when that drug first entered their body. And so what are they describing is this experience of. Of being soothed for really the first time in their life by someone or something that was pretty consistent. And so to me, that's not justification to just keep going back to old patterns. But in Matthew 5, verse 4, it says, Blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted. Most of my clients want forgiveness and want to stop their behaviors and outgrow their mental health challenges. I've never had a client say, jay, I'm here because I have not had enough comfort in my Life. And so I think that's part of what we need from just an attachment standpoint is we, we needed caregivers to see us and to offer us soothing. And when we receive that, then we feel secure in ourselves.

So I have a little bit of a follow up question because I love everything that you just said and yet I know that we will get, get comments or emails from betrayed partners who don't like when we say, when we talk about self soothing or we talk about those behaviors and that that's a normal physiological, biological need. And yet I think that for betrayed partners, they tend to look at that as an excuse or a justification or whatever it is that they're spouse has been doing. So how would you. I mean, because I'm just curious that it's a really tough question to answer. And so I'd just be curious what your thoughts are about that.

Sure. I mean, I think there's always a level that our desires have to be disciplined if they are going to develop. And so part of what we're looking at is not the justification of the behavior, but to really honor the story of what that has meant. So I think of another Dan Siegel phrase which is the window of tolerance. And so that's a concept where he would basically say all of us have this particular window of tolerance which he refers to as the green zone. And that's when the self is flexible, it's adaptive, it's energized. But then we also have what are called red zone moments and blue zone moments. And so oftentimes what happens when we are growing up is when we experience the red zone, which is our heart rate goes up. Cortisol, adrenaline, noradrenaline, we need a way to be able to come back into our bodies. And so for a lot of people growing up, that was a screen, that was drug use, that was alcohol, that was pornography use. And so that sense of, you know, we always need honor and honesty, so can I survive how they help me to cope, but then also be radically honest about should I still be doing these types of behaviors in my marriage? Should I still be going to these types of behaviors in my adult life? And what would it look like to enter into the green zone in a way that is far more mature, that is far more kind, that's far more beneficial to my own well being? And so often what I find myself telling my clients is, you know, you were wandering around in the desert and you found a well and that well kept you alive. But there was also bacteria in that well that we now have to address. So it's not about going back to the old well. It's finding a new well. It's creating a life that you don't need to escape from in a way that's healthy. So to me, going back to honor something isn't justifying the behavior. It's helping people to understand the purpose of why they were drawn to that. And then to really pose the question of where do you want to go from here? And what would be good and beneficial to your own mental health, to honoring God, to your marriage, to your family?

So to put it in some of the, you know, addiction and recovery terms, I think what we're trying to help people see is that coping is not the problem. In fact, I remember Dr. Ted saying that to me in my. My counseling journey many years ago of, we all need to cope, but we've just learned to cope in very unhealthy ways or ways that take us away from God and community with others. So how do we learn healthy coping strategies? And that is, you know, going back to attachment style. There are ways, hopefully, that we did get taught or given some healthy coping strategies as kids, but there were probably many other ways that we didn't. And so it's identifying like. Like, what are the ones that I can hold on to that are helpful to me. You know, I think for me, growing up in the Rocky Mountains in Wyoming and Montana, things like hiking and camping, we're very kind of restorative and fun. And so that is still part of my pattern. And I can thank my family and heritage for those things. But then there were other ways I didn't get what I needed. And so I think we're just looking at adults to identify from our family of origin, the ways we attached or didn't, what can I hold on to, and what do I need to let go of? And then, like you said, Jay, find a healthier, cleaner well, a different well. And that may mean in adulthood, working into some strategies of coping that I've never used before because I wasn't handed them. I wasn't trained in that. And so exploring something new, like music or art or food or whatever, is maybe something you've never really explored. To ask the question of could this become part of healthy coping, healthy soothing in a way that does keep me connected to God and others and myself. And I think the more we look at mental health through that lens and family attachment, we really start to get some ideas of what could change versus what I was handed from my heritage.

So, Jay, sometimes Faith and mental health seem like they're two separate conversations, patients. So how do you see them working together in a way that fosters healing?

Yeah, I think that's so much of what we've been exploring together today is that there. There is this interplay between the curiosity of God, God showing up in the midst of, you know, places of exile, and God's deep, deep abiding commitment to bring us goodness. And so, you know, if we are to be on the lookout for the arrival of God, I. That is really within some of the brokenness of our story. So I think of, you know, Isaiah where he says, you know, he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted and to proclaim freedom for the captives. He's making a link between that sense of being brokenhearted and also finding yourself in captivity. And so if we are understanding the gospel, these aren't, you know, just disconnected categories. But the. The point of the gospel is to be able to enter into the heartache, into the barrenness, and find ourselves really wrestling with this notion that the God of the universe is deeply committed to me. But at the same time, when I read the psalms, when I read so many of the prophets, they. They don't seem mentally well a lot of times. So Jeremiah basically said, it would have been better for me to have been aborted in my mother's womb than to have to live another day with this message. And yet, nevertheless, there's a fire in me that I have to speak. And so he's in wrestling. Psalm 88 essentially ends with saying, darkness is a closer friend than you, oh, God. So we're back to really, the story of Jacob, which is. It is in our honest wrestling with our identity, with our name, with the struggles that we have, that. That something of the story of God begins to unfold in our lives. And so to me, it's not to use faith to escape mental health, but it's also not to use mental health to escape a conversation about what is God up to and what the gospel is all about. To me, I feel like I understand the gospel better through understanding mental health, and I understand mental health far more through grappling with what the gospel is all about.

And to me, Jay, I think it goes back to what you said at the beginning about Sarx, about our physical body that God, through Jesus, took on. Sarx enters into the physical body, and to make sure we keep connected in our faith that we are spirit, soul, and body, and that that's not three different things. We are. That that's all connected and one of the dangers many of us grew up with is to think of faith as only applying to the spirit or the soul. And then anything to do with the body or the mind was kind of like, like, well, that's stuff of earth. It's like, well, no, if Jesus thought it was significant enough to take on my sarks, a physical body and enter into that experience, there's something deeply spiritual about that. And so to connect those practices in a way to say, as our good friend, you know, Rodney Wright, it's all spiritual. It's all part of what we don't have. Spiritual and carnal. Like everything we do has a spiritual component. And I think when we see our mental health journey through that lens, that it's body, it's all connected, that then it really we can incorporate our faith in ways that maybe we haven't before.

Yeah. Which has always been one of the things that so impressed me about Pure Desire. I love science and I love psychology. And I grew up in a conservative Christian family and church where those things never met each other at all in my world prior to college. And then so being introduced to pure desire, where Dr. Ted used science and psychology and mental health and laid it over a foundation of biblical truth made so much sense to me. And really, like you said, it even strengthened my faith because I saw Christ and I saw scripture in psychology, you know, because it wasn't an either or, it was a both. And for me, yeah, yeah, down.

So, Jay, this is kind of the million dollar question. And if, you know, if you have the answer to this, you probably just make millions because that's what everyone wants to know. But if someone is listening and they're maybe feeling stuck in some unhealthy mental health patterns of self criticism or anxiety or just really entering into bouts of depression, they're stuck in negative coping patterns. If they feel stuck in those patterns, what could they do to start to break free? Free?

Million dollar question. So many different answers with regard to how to break free. You know, I think, I mean, there's so many things that we have talked about that feel important to go back to underscore whether it's the Rocky Mountains that you were just talking about. But I think one of the first things that we need to do is to really understand the way that our, you know, our bodies work. So I'm going to go to the psalms first and then go back into some neuroscience science in the body. But you know, in Psalm 131, the Psalmist essentially says, like, you know, I do not concern myself with things too great or wonderful, wonderful for me. But I have stilled and quieted my soul like a weaned child. Is my soul within me? Well, if you are stuck in a pattern of behavior, oftentimes what happens is that you're not in your green zone, you're in the red zone. You're, you're stressed out or you're feeling some of the hypo arousal of the blood blue zone and you don't know how to come back into the green zone without going back to some of these self destructive behaviors. So part of what we need to establish is how do I find a way to come back into my body to be able to calm it down and to find some regulation? And that goes back to again, our attachment. So what was the nature of how we were able to find soothing as kids? What was the way that we were able to find some level of being seen and safe in our own bodies? So there is something called afferent and efferent data or efferent and afferent data. So afferent data is basically the body sending messages to the brain. And efferent data like exit from the brain down to our body. And so what we know is that about 80% of all the data comes from our body up to our brain, and only about 20% goes from the brain to or out of the brain into the body through the vagal nerve pathway. And so that has huge implications for how do you get unstuck. So when you feel stuck, when you feel shame, that's not just happening mentally, that's happening in your body. So researchers at University of Michigan found that if you go outside to a city park for 20 minutes, you will have a significant reduction in the amount of, amount of cortisol in your spit by just spending 20 minutes outside. So it, that's, you know, 20 minutes, you get more of a benefit if you're outside for hours. But the most dramatic, imper, most dramatic reduction is in those first 20 minutes. So that, that's really important. Most of us go to things that are not quite healthy when we are feeling some level of stress or difficulty, when we are feeling some level of shame and condemnation in our bodies, like we're looking at ourselves and saying, I'm so unwanted, I'm so screwed up. Part of what our bodies are feeling is a sense of rigidity. It's a sense of, you know, we might be going numb and if we don't have a way to come back into our bodies and to restore it, we are going to pursue behaviors that reinforce those core beliefs about who we are. So if I'm depressed and I'm sitting in my room and I don't want to go outside, well, then I'm going to pursue more behaviors like drinking, overeating, porn that then reestablish that sense of like, I really should not be seen by anyone, I need to stay hidden, I need to stay in isolation. And then the pattern really just begins to repeat itself. So just from a very, you know, semantic level, we have to engage our bodies. And I don't see people doing that nearly enough in recovery or working on their unwanted sexual behavior through building a window of tolerance. Most people try to get into accountability or get into therapy, and all those things are very good. But if you are not, you know, if your window of tolerance is 2 inches high, you are going to struggle with a lot of unhealthy behaviors. So one of the best things that you can do is to increase your window of tolerance through really attunement to what your body is feeling, what it's sensing and bringing it experiences, whether it's hiking, good food, relationships that will really allow you to feel embodied and integrated. So one answer to that million dollar question. There's. There's so many.

Yeah, that's really great. I don't necessarily think of, you know, my quick fix being step outside for 20 minutes. You know, step outside and just enjoy the light and the sun when we have it in Portland, Oregon area. But still just the physical response that our body creates from that is amazing. I forgot about that.

Yeah. Well, it goes back to what we've discussed about some of the theology that we're handed that really didn't take seriously the earth and our bodies. And it makes me think of the Hebrew ideas of shalom being much more than just, you know, peace in a generic way, but like peace with self, peace with the land, peace with creation, like, like all that being connected to our experience. And what I hear you saying, Jay, is the more we can reconnect our whole sel to God in creation, in our minds and relationships, like that's what creates goodness and belonging. And the four S's you talked about seen safe, soothe, secure, like those come through those healthy practices. And so if we're stuck, I think rather than just saying, okay, stop doing that, as we've talked about a lot, that that's not effective just to try to stop something. It's really looking at what do I start doing to bring into my life what I'm really ultimately needing and looking for underneath maybe my problematic behaviors or patterns.

Yes, because, I mean, I think back to my primary struggle through life was not porn. Porn developed for me much later in college, but for me, it was always just around food. And so body shame, body dysmorphia, eating disorders have been much more a part of my life than my own porn use. And so that has been something of the journey for me of being able to say we were a Costco family and there was a lot of disengagement in the evenings and I would eat a lot of Little Debbie. What were the oatmeal cream pies and the Ho Hos? And that was what I mean, we had an unlimited. There was like a whole shelf on our pantry just devoted to that kind of stuff. So that was the primary soother for me. And so late in the evenings when I would get home from, you know, middle school, unable to sleep, unable to soothe, that's where I would find myself is in the pantry eating self soothing. And then what ends up happening is if that's the place that I am experiencing self soothing, I'm also going to experience some level of shame there. And so the Old Testament, when they're talking about the nature of shame, again, I love neuroscience's definition of shame, Brene Brown's definition of shame. But part of the way that the Old Testament interacts with shame is we feel shame over the things that we put our trust in. And so that sense of that's the grief for me is that I put my trust in food. And on one hand I honor that. Those oatmeal cream pies were something of what, you know, to be seen to be soothed, to feel safe for like those multiple seconds that I would just eat and devour that food. But also, as I began to place my trust in that more and more, the shame that I experienced in that began to build. And so how do I attune to my body now as an adult? Well, I find myself in front of pantries quite often at 10 o', clock, 11 o' clock at night when I am stressed. And it's just this sense of like, I'm looking for a mother, I'm looking for a father. I'm willing, able to, like, eat a lot of calories at night, to be able to wake up the next morning in a type of judgment so that I don't have to face the real stress, the real heartache of my life in the present moment. And so again, just, you know, so much of what we have been talking about this entire time is that our patterns, as much as we hate them and loathe them, are inviting us to grapple with our story and to walk those 200 miles through our life with God. With God asking really curious, but also maddening questions about how we organized our life and where we found safety and refuge.

Maybe we can get Little Debbie to sponsor this podcast now that the sales of oatmeal cream pies are going to spike after everyone hears this episode. I love them.

Yes. And, I mean, that's been part of the sense of even my own recovery with food is. I don't scapegoat Little Debbie, but I can talk to Little Debbie. I can buy Little Debbie. I can take my kids to the grocery store and say, like, let me introduce you to my first girlfriend, Little Debbie.

Nice. So you talk about the why behind our behaviors rather than just focusing on stopping them. We've kind of established that. So why is this approach so critical in mental health healing?

Because when I think about unwanted behaviors, I. I forget who I learned this from. May have been Robert Augustus Masters, who makes this point, but one of the things he says is that we need to outgrow porn. We don't just need to stop it. We need to kind of consider what would it mean for us to outgrow. And Heather, this goes back to your question that you were asking about sel soothing and justice. It's it. This to me is the question of recovery, is how do you begin to outgrow unhealthy behaviors? So, Stan, the story. We need to understand the origins of those stories. But origin stories are never meant to excuse myself from responsibility in the present. And so, you know, whenever I'm working with a client, part of the worlds that we establish are, you know, they may have come from a mother or father who humiliated them, who was very cruel to them, maybe was emotionally enmeshed with them. So that was the first world that they grew up in. And then at some point in middle school, high school, they began to get involved in sexual behavior. And that could be from sexual abuse from a peer, someone older than them. That could be pornography of some kind, hookup culture. And so that became another world for them. And so part of what I am consistently inviting my intensive clients to is to say, like, okay, the first world that you came from was not healthy. But then the second world that, you know, was either a source of trauma or a place of self soothing or a place that helped you to survive. That's not sustainable for your life, life in the future. So Part of what we're doing is partnering with God to co author a New World where we get to live very differently. So I think that's what recovery is about, is if I were to come back into my childhood home as a seventh and eighth grader, what would that boy really want and need from a good father, a good mother? And. And, you know, part of what I've had to grapple with is that there are no fathers left for me on this planet. I can try and find that in a mentor. I can try and find that in a therapist. But, like, at the end of the day, I'm really invited to care for that kid. And so, you know, unlike Nick, I watched a lot of tv, a lot of tbs, Atlanta Braves baseball, a lot of couches time, and we did not get outside very much. And so I remember when some of my friends, when I first moved to the Pacific Northwest, I remember my. My friend Tim inviting me to go surfing. I remember my friend Andy invited me to go hiking and do Mount Rainier for the first time. And these were, like, such formative, indelible experiences for my body to be engaged. So instead of dissociating to a screen or to food, I wanted to experience something in my body that was beautiful. My friend Brian owned a restaurant. And so one of the first experiences of food that I remember just being like, wow, this is stunning food. I've never tasted a salad like this. I thought salad was iceberg lettuce drowned in ranch with some carrot shavings on it. Like, this is actually a salad. And I remember just being somewhat in awe, awe of all of these moments. And so that is the sense of that's what that kid needed, is he needed a good father to be able to take him out, to see the glory of creation. He needed a good mom to introduce him not into just, like, foods that led to judgment and, you know, late at night, but really some sense of calming and soothing. And so that's what I'm tasked with. I think that's part of recovery, is I get to be the caregiver that that kid really, really needed. And so that's the sense of how do I outgrow is not shunning that kid for his desires or condemning him, but to say, I actually know that you want something more beautiful, more integrated than this disembodied, dissociative, and shameful life. And I get to show up to offer that kid what he never knew that he was really looking for.

Yeah, that's so powerful, Jay. I think of in our groups, how men and women learn about the power of a coherent narrative, that when we can tell a coherent narrative of our past, we gain the power to change its impact on us because we recognize the why and we can lead to different outcomes. To say, man, this is what I didn't receive in my youth. This is what didn't happen growing up. But. But here's what I can do now. Because when we see the why, we're empowered to do something about with the help of God and others. Jay, so appreciate you, love that you spent time with us today. There is so much here that. That people could unpack. But I want to just have you leave our listeners with something today. What is one thing as you think about this topic, what's the one thing you'd say you wish more people understood about mental health and healing from trauma? Trauma.

To me, this is deeply theological question as well, that when we think about trauma. Another definition of trauma that I want to weave in, I believe this is from Peter Levine or Gabor Mate. But, you know, one of the things he says is that trauma is not just this event that happened to us long ago. All right, I got the quotes mixed up. So one of the things that he says is, you know, trauma is not just the bad things that happen inside of us or to us. Trauma is what happens inside of us in the absence of an empathetic witness. And so that's what we need. And that's often what separates what is a traumatic experience to something that was not traumatic, was really, did you have a witness to your trauma? And so I think that's the, you know, the healing power of groups of being able to share your story, of understanding that the God of the universe wants to bear witness and ask questions to us. Is it's really that question of an empathetic witness. And, you know, when I think about Jesus and the trauma that Jesus has been through, I think we always have to come back to that notion that Jesus could have healed his scars, but he understands his scars to be important enough to keep on his body because they tell a story of about where he comes from, tells a story about his great love for us. So if we are following Jesus and the way of the cross, I mean, that trauma has been etched into all of our lives. And so our scars are not really intended to be fully hidden. But, you know, scars tell stories that ultimately make known something of the story of Jesus. And so I think scars, trauma, are a really, really good entry point to understand what the gospel is all about.

Yeah, I really appreciate this conversation, too, because like we said at the beginning, this is one of the things that a lot of times is not really addressed in the church and where it almost seems like if you talk about mental health or if you're struggling, then, then you probably have unconfessed sin in your life or you probably have something that is wrong with you, or maybe you're really not even saved. And so I appreciate that we're having this conversation so openly and honestly because I think it's important.

Yeah, I love that, Jay. The power of the empathetic witness and thinking about how important it is, then the frequency with which in Scriptures we see God saying, for I am am with you and I will be with you, and the testimony that we are never alone. And really the ways in which then that presence of God is so often embodied to us through other people that we're not walking through it alone, but in the presence of others. And so, yeah, love this conversation. The ways in which we can see that mental health matters and it can be connected to our journey of recovery and also to our faith and understanding, the ways in which our past, our trauma messages from our family of origins have deeply impacted the ways we think about ourselves and view our world and the hope that that gives, that we can heal, we can. We can be transformed in the ways of our thinking. And, Jay, I know you have so much more to say about that. If listeners want to hear more from you, track with you, find out about what you're up to, what's the best place for them to go and connect with you.

So website is j a y-stringer.com and I don't know if I've said this on your podcast before. There's another J. Stringer that's a British crime fiction author, which is why I needed to put a dash in Find me on Instagram. And, you know, we, my team offers training. So if you are a leader, therapist, lay leader, that wants to understand more of your own sexual story, your own own mental health challenges so that you're more effective in leading others, we have that training program. We offer intensives for people to understand their story, outgrow unwanted behaviors, and have, you know, online resources and all that kind of thing. And, you know, one of the things people will often ask me is like, you know, do you recommend Pure Desire Resources or the Journey course, or do you recommend this or that? And it's like, I think of healing and resources as like a river, like the Mississippi. And so one of the reasons why the Mississippi river is so powerful is because it's not just one river, there's like hundreds of tributaries to it. And so that to me is like how I think about being involved with you all and allies and colleagues is like there's this river of healing and the river of the gospel that, that I think we are all concerned with. And we have good tributaries and they're different tributaries, but they're very similar in that we're hoping to bring about health and a change in conversation. So it to me it's not a binary either or it's a sense of like go deep into pure desires, resources go into there's so many good people, Michael John Cusick's work. There's so much good work being done. So read widely and pay attention to kind of like who is resonating inside of you.

So yeah, yeah, absolutely. And amen to all of that. So it's j-stringer.com unless you're into British crime fiction. And then you could check out the other J. Stringer. But you know, we love what you do, Jay, and thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

And right back at you too. So thank you for your work and just even hosting these conversations. So important.

Yeah. And if you're a fan of the content and today's show, please subscribe, share it with somebody, give us a review. All of these are ways that other people can come in contact with some life changing information. And if you'd like more information about pure desire, groups, resources or counseling, Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.

Sam.