413 - Anchored in Hope: A Conversation with Dr. Sheri Denham Keffer

Foreigner. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is episode 413, and here joining me is my co host throughout this series that we're calling the Summit speaker series. This is our first of four highlighting all of the speakers that'll be on the main sessions for the summit. Joining me as co host for this series is Ashley Jamison. Ashley, welcome back.

Hello. I'm happy to be back here still again.

Yeah, it is exciting that we are starting to promote the summit because that means it's not too far away, and that is such a highlight for us.

Yeah, we have a killer lineup, I think, of speakers. I might be more excited about this summit than I ever have been because as we bump shoulders with other people in the field and colleagues and network, we. We get to learn a little bit more of people's heart and their personality and their personal stories along with the work that they do. And I think that's the case for, you know, our three main speakers this year that we, we really know their heart behind things. And so I'm so excited for this year.

Yeah. Do. Do we bump shoulders with other people or rub shoulders?

Rub shoulders. Okay.

I mean, just. Just kind of a little mixed metaphor there. We know what you meant.

Shoulders might be okay. I'm the queen of mixed metaphors.

Probably in today's day and age, it would be safer to, you know, bump someone's shoulder than they, you know, they might not appreciate you. Rub their shoulder like. Okay, step back a little bit.

True.

Today, as you're mentioning, this is a speaker that. That gets recovery. She's written a very, very powerful book for betrayed spouses, and that is Dr. Sherry Denham Keffer. Tell us a little bit about our conversation with Dr. She today.

Oh, it's so rich. What I love about her is she has a lot of. She uses a lot of imagery and just kind of gives us visual pictures when she's describing things. And that is very helpful to me. Those always stick with me after a podcast because we listen to so many speakers and so much information out there, but when she just gives you a little one liner or visual image, I'm like, yep, I'm taking that. She has a big heart not only for the betrayed spouse, but also the addict. She just has a heart for people to feel seen and feel valid, validated, and to give them very practical tools to help them move to a better place.

Yeah, she. She gets it. And I, I think with all the summit speakers, that's our feeling this year, is like they really understand us. They understand recovery, and they bring something to the table with their depth of experience and expertise that we feel will be so important to hear from. And Dr. She definitely fits that category. So a bit more about her. Dr. Sherry Keffer is a regular co host of the nationally syndicated radio talk show New Life Live, with an audience of more than 2 million people each week. Man, how could we get them to promote the summit for us? We should talk to Dr. Sherry about that. For over 23 years, she's worked as a doctor of marriage and family therapy in Newport Beach, California. Through her own personal story of recovery, Dr. Sherry understands the trauma symptoms often associated with with sexual betrayal and post traumatic stress. She is. Now, get this. It's quite a list. She is a certified partner trauma therapist supervisor, a certified sex addiction therapist, a certified clinical partner specialist, a certified couples betrayal recovery therapist, and a certified clinical empathy specialist. And there are enough letters behind her name that she could. I don't know, I'm trying to think of some pun there, but she's got a lot of education, she knows what she's doing, and she brings new tools and a fresh look at what's needed not only to heal, but to heal well. Dr. Sherry is a keynote speaker and recipient of the 2019 ITAP Outstanding Publication Award for her book, Intimate Deception Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal. And we believe that today's episode will make you thirsty for the summit. And if you decide that you would like to come, we'd love to have you sign up. And anyone who signs up by June 30th will be getting some bonus content. So one more encouragement to after you listen to this episode, go to PureDesureSummit.com and get signed up so that you can get that bonus content. So here now is our conversation with Dr. Sherry Denham Keffer as part one of four of our summit speaker series on Anchored in Hope. Dr. Sherry, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. It's great to have you on again.

I am thrilled to be here. I loved when we were together last time. And actually I've been really looking forward to continuing our conversation.

Yes. And we are so excited to have you as one of our featured speakers at this year's Pure Desire Summit. And that was kind of the hope behind this conversation today is really give our listeners a sense of what they might expect at the summit. And this year's summit theme is Anchored in hope. And so, Dr. Sherry, you work with many women navigating sexual betrayal and trauma. And oftentimes in that journey, hope can feel out of reach. So how do you see the theme anchored in hope playing a role in the healing journey?

You know, I honestly think that everyone is looking for hope. No matter what side you're on, whether you're the one who has sexually acted out or you're the one who's been betrayed, it's painful. It's bloody painful. And so back in the day, when ancient Hebrew was written, it was written more like Chinese or hieroglyphics. It was word pictures. So there were these pictures and sounds that would make words. Well, if you look back, the word ava is the word for lust, which means the strong nail that hooks you to itself. In contrast, the other word is kava, which means what comes after the nail. And guess what that means. It's hope. So whenever I think about providing hope for those of you that are listening right now, and no matter where you're at, no matter who you are, if you're the one that's sexually acted out and you're hooked, right, lust has got you, and that's turned into actually acting out even more. Or if you're the one that is drowning because you're hooked with someone who's hooked into lust, and you're feeling like you're being pulled behind, you know, some kind of a wagon heading west with, you know, by a bunch of horses you're dragging on the ground, getting cut up. It's. It's. You know, I think the truth of it is, is we can get unhooked. We don't have to stay hooked to lust, and we don't have to stay hooked in a situation where we're harmed again and again and again. And hope is why I'm here. It's why you all are here. I wouldn't do this. I wouldn't be getting deep into the weeds and the dark, murky waters with folks if I didn't see people on the other side that are getting unhooked and are actually starting to walk in a stronger, more redemptive, more freer way. Like some of them, you know, really quick story. I mean, I had a person. We did a full disclosure, therapeutic full disclosure in a polygraph. And this person lied all the way to the polygrapher because there were some things that he was holding back. And when he got there and actually had to face himself and am I gonna just try to pass and fail? You know, he decided to bring it and he came clean. And that bondage that he was in, those secrets that he was holding onto, that he had lied from to his wife, he'd lied to the therapist, he'd lied to me. He'd lied to everybody. He got unhooked, and that man, his blood pressure. He got off his blood pressure medication. It came down. He actually started going around to other groups and talking to men about the importance of getting honest, like, for the first time, get out. That was a free man. And that's why we're doing. What we're doing is we're making changes so that people can live free.

You're so right that it's often the stories from people on the other side of the story that have walked that road of recovery that can give us hope, because it does feel hopeless at times. When we look at our current circumstances, and it's like you're standing at the foot of a giant mountain, and you're like, I don't think there's any way I can get up this. Because all you see is, you know, rocks and snow, and there's no way up. But if someone comes along who says, I've been to the top and I know the way and let me lead you, well, then we're just following someone else and not feeling like we're forging our own way. And I think that's what I love about recovery, is while we have to walk our own road, we certainly can't have anyone do it for us. And it is very challenging. We have so many other people that have walked this road ahead of us and have made it, and whether their marriage made it or not, they made it as individuals. And very often, the marriage does make it if both couple, both spouses are equally engaged in that recovery process and want to make it work. But. But yeah, if we don't have that guide, if we don't have that sense that there's people who have been there and made this work, it can be easy to be stuck in that hopelessness because it just. It feels like so much when you're at the bottom of that mountain.

Yeah. Your book was one that I read when I was early in our journey and my husband's dealing with his recovery, and I was fresh in my betrayal trauma, deep and fresh in my betrayal trauma. And just. Just reading from somebody who gets it and can put language to what you're experiencing. That alone is a huge step for a lot of women to. To feel like they can get unstuck and. And trust somebody, you know, and think, okay, if this person is articulating my experience so clearly and accurately, then I think I can risk trusting the process and. And seeing where they can lead me. So it's really cool to even just have you on and be able to share with women, because I know a lot of women have read your book before, and you completely get what it means to just help people out of where they're stuck and lead them to hope by just offering what your experience is. And we can tend to make such a big deal about it that we have to have the perfect words or the perfect sermon or the, you know, and really people just want somebody authentic to say, I've been had, done that, and I can help you.

And I agree with you so much, Ashley. I. You know, I think what saddens me most is that I. I think there's a lot of people that wander aimlessly in the wilderness, like, to your point, Nick, like this huge mountain, and they're trying to make it up, but there's just this windy road. They don't know the steps of true recovery. And there are steps, there are things you can do. And that's one of the things that I'm actually going to be talking about when you have me speak later this year is I am going to be actually presenting a roadmap in the main session. And so I think it's important to cut the time that people are wasting because they don't know the stages, they don't know the steps. They haven't seen it clearly, like they're trying to put things together. We're so smart. We're out there on the Internet and we're grabbing this and this and this. But how does it all flow? And there is a natural flow, there is a path that's progressive. And so I would love to invite you to come and hear me so that I can present that. You can ask questions, we can take a look at it. You can actually see where you're at, and then you can go, I didn't even know these things were available. And I'm going to say, yes, they are.

I'm excited to sit in that session.

Yeah.

Okay. So we know that hope sometimes can feel distant, and when we're overwhelmed by pain. From your perspective, what are some practical steps people can take when they feel stuck in their healing journey?

You know, I have this thing that I created. It's called my empowerment wheel. And one of the places, and a hundred percent of the time, it's like the monopoly board. 100% of the time, we start in the stuck position. We're in the victim seat. Now, that doesn't mean that you're going to stay a victim. But whether you're somebody who's acting out or whether you're somebody who's been betrayed, right there is this place of we feel powerless, helpless, or we blame others. And we might say things like this, it's not fair, it's not my fault, I'm stuck. I don't know what to do about it. Like that can be either person. The path out is actually up. It's going up. And I called it my golden road. It's the golden road to responsibility. So what is responsibility? Responsibility is saying to myself, I have the right to make a decision for myself. I can ask myself for what I need. I can make choices. Right? Responsibility is taking responsibility for your life, personalizing it. So if I'm with somebody who's acting out and they're frustrated about something and they're tempted because I work both with those who sexually act out and both with those who've been betrayed, and so they're ticked. They've got a whole lot of stinking thinking going on. And what's happening is they're going into self deception. They're starting to blame their significant other for whatever frustration they're feeling. And at that point they're more vulnerable to act out, to try to numb their feelings. And so I'll ask them, I'll say, okay, they'll present the story and then I'll just say to them, where are you at on the wheel? And they'll say, okay, I'm in the victim seat. You know, they usually. And I say, okay, but how do you get out of there? What's the road up? And then I have them read responsibility. I take responsibility for my life. I have a voice. I can consider what I need. And I ask the question, what do you need? What do you need right now? And they're like, I don't know, I haven't thought about that. And I think a lot of people haven't really thought about that. But once they can identify what they need, and it might be that they need respect, it might mean that they need to be heard, it might mean that they need support. Who knows? But once you identify what you need, you can go get that for yourself. And instead of commiserating around the drain, a victim right on either side, you. It's all of a sudden now you've got action steps going on. I'm starting to move forward to figure out what I need. And then How I can get that instead of relinquishing my power to somebody else, trying to wait for them to do the thing that I want them to do, but I can take action for myself. And that's empowerment. That feels good on either side.

What I HEAR you saying, Dr. Sherry, is that there's importance in taking those small incremental steps of, what can I do now? And I think sometimes people get stuck because of that mindset of, if I can't do everything, then I get stuck in doing nothing. And sometimes recovery, whether we're the struggle or the addict or the betrayed spouse, it can feel like I don't know how this road ends. I don't know how we'll ever get there. And so we feel stuck in doing nothing. And empowerment says, what can I do? You know, I remember how freeing it was when I read the line in the Seven Pillars of Freedom workbook that Pure Desire has that says, God is not asking you to be free forever in this moment. He's asking you to pursue freedom today and what can you do today? And that was so life giving, because I think I'd been stuck in that binge purge struggle for so long, it felt like, well, can I ever really be free? Like, I don't know if I can do this and have someone say, you don't have to do this forever. You have to do this today. Can you do it for a day? And I'm like, well, yeah, I can do that today. It's like, okay, and then tomorrow, let's figure out what you need to do tomorrow. And I hear you saying that as well, of like, what do you need? What is a step you can take? Where could you engage in community or your healing or creating healthy boundaries or whatever might be needed? But doing something is very often what gets us that momentum. And where days of recovery now start to pile up, that becomes, over time, a new way of life and recovery. But in the moment, it might not seem that significant because it's like, well, what I want is, like, way down the road over there, but you can't get there all at once. You can only get there one step, one day, one healthy habit at a time.

I love that. I love that, Nick. And you, we all know, right? And I know from my own story. I'm trauma squared. I had trauma in my family of origin and then trauma with Connor. Right? The betrayal. But this is what's true. So many of us have a trauma history, and that's what's kind of underneath the numbing, the sexual acting out and all of that. And so many of us haven't learned how to even identify what we need even to make that step. Right. But you can learn how to do that. You can learn how to make it a meaningful moment by moment, day to day. And once you start seeing yourself, identifying what you need and then making choices, you begin to. To just feel more self respect for you.

Yeah. Not having choices, feeling like you don't have choices is the most hopeless place I've personally been. When you feel like the way your life is turning out, has turned out, could turn out, is completely dependent on somebody else that isn't showing to be trustworthy and truthful, It's a scary place to be. And I know I was stuck in that mentality for a while of just fear paralyzing me and then having to realize that the best thing I can do is to. To remind myself and lay out that I have options. Even if they're not the options I would have wished for and prayed for growing up as a little girl, I still have options that I don't have to stay like this. And, you know, and that's. That's sometimes the hard truth. You know, when women come to us and. And they say, you know, he's still seeing his girlfriend and we've tried everything, and it's like, if he never, ever, ever changes, what do you need for yourself? What do you want your life to look like? What do you need to do? And that's such a hard reality because nobody wants their world to fall apart.

But it's.

It's the painful questions that we have to ask. You know, instead of just hoping 20 years later, we're still hoping that somebody else will change.

I love that. It's so true. And, you know, I see betrayed partners, and I'm one of those that has lived with the situation of being with somebody who is not doing the work right, who is keeping the lies going. As you just talked about, Ashley. And it does feel very disabling because you want somehow to rattle their cage. You actually want it to work out. But there's two people in the story, right? And I remember how it felt when, like, I was out on a ship at sea and Connor kept shooting cannonballs at our ship. And I did what any betrayed partner would do is I started with grabbing a bucket and I started trying to bail water out of the boat because I'm like, I gotta try to save this ship and I've gotta try to stop him from doing the thing that's hurting me. Yeah, I overcompensated I tried to do the work for both of us. Now, what is that? That's betrayal trauma induced control. At that point, it wasn't codependency, it was betrayal trauma. Oh, because I was freaking out. I just wanted our ship to not sink. I wanted.

Which is seeking safety. And it's appropriate to seek safety if the ship sinks, that's not safe.

And so, you know, there's two people get to make choices. But if the one, like you just said, Ashley looks at her options or his options, if he's been the one that's betrayed, if we will focus in on the options, even though we have to slay Hopium and start to get real, begin to grieve what you don't have in this moment and begin to get empowered with some movement and get help and get support. Believe it or not, the one you're with will start watching you get up and start making different changes. And I'm sure that happened with you, Ashley, where you started growing and getting stronger. And then all of a sudden he's like, you know, I'm misfiring. Yeah, you. You started shifting the trajectory of your relationship and he didn't want to lose you. That's right.

Oh, yeah.

Yep.

Now I have to pause here. Did you just call it Hopium?

Hopium, yes.

I think that's great.

Opium.

It's like we get addicted to the hope of someone changing, but it's not healthy for us.

It's not. It's unrequited love. It's unrequited hope. It's hope that isn't even reality. It's just a form of fantasy. And some of us can get stuck in Hopium, and we might be spiritualizing the issue and get stuck in Hopium, and we have a fantasy for who they might be. But what we're out of is we're out of reality. Reality is acknowledging what's true. I got honest with myself and I'm. And others. Right. And I'm taking steps to own it, grieve it, and deal with it. And.

That'S good.

Yeah, that's how change happens. It doesn't happen when we're. When we're, you know, smoking, hoping.

So, Dr. Sherry, you've worked with many individuals. You talked about this, that you work with both the betrayed spouse, but also the struggler, the addict. Is it possible for someone to truly break free from cycles of shame and brokenness? And how does that happen?

I do think it's possible when I'm working with someone who is Actually steeped in their shame. They've got shame over the sexual acting out. You know, they've got shame over the things that their significant other doesn't know yet. They've got shame that they put on themselves. Right. I'm, I'm a screw up. I really blown this. I'm good for nothing. I'm, you know, there's that self imposed negative shame beliefs and, and then there's a history like as I, I, I actually didn't know that I wanted to work with those who sexually act out because I didn't want to get in the mind to understand more what Connor was thinking. I think I felt like if I could just stay away from that and just work with partners that, that, I don't know, I'd be a healthier human being. But I was missing a huge part of understanding the complexities of where they came from and how this whole snowball of, you know, covered with barbed wire came from. And so many of these individuals have been acted out upon by their dads, have been beat up, have been molested by other boys or neighbors or a babysitter. They've got a parent who abandoned them. Some of them have parents that were both addicts. Some of them have parents that one got went to jail or the other one did, or a mom who was depressed. I mean, the list is unending. And all that shame creates lies. So the brain, when, when we have a shameful or event that happens in our life, the brain is trying to save us. So the brain wires in a negative belief about you. It doesn't pin that negative belief on somebody else. It puts it on you like a piece of Velcro. It sticks to your face or your, you know, arms and legs or whatever. And it, it's like, I'm shameful. I'm not good enough. I'm defective. I'm permanently damaged. There's no hope for me. And so that is what starts to eat away at our core. And so often when I'm working with those that sexually act out, we're identifying those stories. I'm looking for those touch tone, painful memories that they have, trauma memories. And I love using emdr. And I go in with the EMDR and I begin to unravel that hairball of pain that's gotten stuck in their brain. And I begin to tease out those lies and help them move into truth. That just because that happened in the past doesn't mean that's who you are today. And, and so the EMDR and those sessions, I mean, they are like, there are men that are crying, they've got tears going down their face as they're seeing themselves for the first time as a little guy. They can see themselves with a new set of eyes, and that's redemptive when they start to respect what happened to them and they start to make new choices. But it's like that little guy inside of them has to get free from the barbed wire as well. And I have so many stories, right, that go along with that, but a lot of hope giving. But I honestly think it's deeper trauma work is what they need. And it's a really brave thing. And any human being that walks in to do some of the deeper trauma work, I just am like, you are so stinking courageous to want to do this because you're working on getting out of the bondage that's held you through those lies that you're brainwired in. We can change our mind. We can change it. We can make it go from, you know, I'm shameful to I'm honorable, but something shameful happened to me. Yeah, those are two different things, aren't they?

Yeah, actually, I mean, that's a perfect lead. And I. I experienced this myself, just my own. When I can catch myself getting into that thinking or, or even had an experience with one of my sons.

He's.

He's now 21, but when he was 14, we had this kind of blow up because he, you know, I've told this story before, but he wanted me to take him to the doctor because he thought his toe was broken. And I was like, it's not broken. I can see it. It's not broken. It's fine. I'm going on a trip. I'll be back in two days. And he just had this meltdown about me, not him, me not caring if he's okay. And I was like, where is this coming from? I went down to his room and I. I just broke down in tears and said there was a time when I was so dysfunctional after my divorce from their dad. I had OCD eating disorder, trauma from the divorce, trauma from the betrayal. I was like, I could barely take care of myself, let alone two twin three year olds running around my apartment. And so. I know, right? And so I was like, there was a time where I. I probably did not show you that I cared for you enough because I was just trying to survive at that point. And he just broke down crying, and it was so healing for us. But up until that point, when he was 14 or maybe 15, he always responded aggressively when he was hurt, and he thought I didn't care about him. And this was just, like, such a healing moment for us to say, you're right. There was a time that I probably didn't show you I cared enough. I probably was in my own head and just trying to get that out. And we have a really great relationship now. He calls me, like, all day, every day. I'm like, I'm working. Talk to me right now. You know, he calls me from the doctor's office. But I'm so thankful that for that experience that I was able to. To own it. Like you said, I had to own it, and. And that was my fault. I was not healthy with them at a certain time of their life, and I had to own that. And I could see it playing out in our. You know, in our home. So it. It will rule you until you're 40, right? Like, until you deal with it. That could have been his story for. For decades, that his mom doesn't care about him.

And Linchpin was Ashley in that moment. You freed him because you said, I did this. Yes. Yeah, that's. That happened, and you made it real. And that's why it popped. Burst open, and he cried. It's like if he was. He was waiting for that ownership for a long time. And so go you. And what a testimony for all of us to learn in your story that we can all kind of sit here for a moment and go, okay, well, what haven't I owned? It's hard to own stuff.

Yeah, it's.

It's really hard. I mean, I don't know, Nick. Maybe you don't have a problem with ownership, but I.

I'm not laughing, but I had a little asthma laugh there. That wasn't laughing at you.

I believe it was Gabor Mate that said, don't ask, why the addiction. Ask why the pain.

Yeah.

And what I hear in this conversation is there's a difference between treating symptoms and acting out sexually, pornography, even affairs, things like that often are symptoms actually of deeper pain that's going unaddressed. And when we get into those roots, I mean, that's where our journey as a couple and through my addiction 15 years ago was so transformational because all those things. I knew all that stuff was there. I was just blind to the impact it was having on me and how it was still driving. Just like you said, Dr. Sherry, those messages, those lies about who I was or where I would find my value, worth, and identity. And until that was unpacked, well, I was Going to find some way to deal with the pain, to medicate the pain. And so when we can start to get into those root things. And I love that you do emdr, because I think that's a very effective method of helping people really go into places that we're not trying to have them recreate memories. It's not some kind of psychological Jedi mind trick of we're going to help you re remember things, but it really is helping someone maybe access parts of their story that they have tried so hard not to think about, that they don't realize how much power and energy it still holds over them. And we've had people say that in group because we do things like walking through your 10 worst moments or, you know, writing out their story. And I'll hear guys say things like, I hadn't thought about this in a decade, but when I started writing it, I began tearing up, and I realized there was all kinds of emotion there. And it surprised me. And it's like, yeah, because we haven't really ever paid attention to the pain, and so it's driving our behavior. But when we pay attention to that, we really can change its impact on us.

And, you know, what you just did in that group, Nick, which is scientific, you had them think about it, write it, and feel it. Whatever fires together, wires together. So that trauma memory was wired in and fired into that hairball in their brain. It had both emotion and thoughts. You through that journaling exercise in that group, that person, they thought it and they felt it. Now, that's how we rewire. It's like a soldering iron. You have to heat it up to change it. You have to heat it up thoughtfully, and you have to feel it, too. And those moments are so sweet. And that's what helps trauma memories begin to change. Like, you know, a soldering iron where it liquefies and it gets a new shape. And so you were helping that man get a new shape for his thoughts and himself through that exercise. That's powerful.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's why groups are foundational to what we do at Pure Desire. Even if somebody gets counseling, we're like, group is so important to. To get those thoughts and feelings out again and be able to rewire and reframe. So we want to know, though, what has been one of the most powerful stories of transformation you've seen in your profession?

Yeah. So, again, I'm going to leave these folks nameless and faceless, of course. But, you know, when I think about a hero and a shero in My mind as far as getting to the other side, you know, it was a couple that I saw some years ago who. There was sexual acting out that happened in, you know, emotional, relational, sexual. But there was an emotional affair that happened with a family member. Now, if you can imagine the impact, not somebody outside there, but somebody that the lines were crossed with inside. And we did a therapeutic full disclosure and polygraph and so verified that. That this emotional fair did happen. But how do you, as a family move forward? How do you continue to go to events? How do you continue to be together at holidays when there was this crossing of lines between two people in a family system? And so this. This couple did so much work. I was so proud of them. They were both. Did some individual therapy, as you mentioned, Ashley. They were both in some groups. They got honest. He ended up getting sober, and he struggled with something called a love, sex and relationship addiction, which is different than just a sexual addiction. It's got a very strong relational component. And so relationships were like cookies for him. He would get them and what happened, you know, she just felt like every place was unsafe, whether it was a family or whether it was the store, whether it was, you know, going to Starbucks. Like, there was always this, you know, flirting and gathering of. Of attention. But, you know, I saw them years down the road be able to continue in the work. Right, because like you said, Nick, it's one day, one step at a time. But I have a picture of them at a wedding, and they are there as a couple, and they're. They're doing a wedding, like a slow dance where they're both holding each other and. And over to the left are the other is the other person that was in that emotional affair with their significant other. And they were there at the same event on the same dance floor. And I just went, oh, my goodness. Like, who writes this stuff? And it's not instant. It actually was a lot of hard work and repair and taking ownership, making sure that the one who was betrayed had a pathway that she could chart as far as how safe she would feel around that person or not. Right. But. But they did it. They did it. And that's. That's a story I will never forget because it's so crystal clear. Like, it defies gravity. I mean, Nick, it is that going to that place up the mountain. But, you know, I didn't think they were going to make it, to be honest. When we started working together, I was like, ooh, yeah. I just don't think they're going to be able to Pull this one out. It's just too messy.

But what I love about that story, Dr. Sherry, is how there was something very unique and messy that maybe even caused that couple to feel like, well, no one has really faced this. Right. Like, we understand maybe in general sexual addiction or affairs, and maybe we're dealing with that. But I think in every story, there is some unique detail, whether it's the kind of pornography or acting out that someone did, it's the people that were involved. There's some part of the story that makes us feel like, but we're different. This can't change. Or this part no one knows how to help us with. And yet we have seen in all of those uniquenesses. And everyone's story is unique, and there might be unique hard work that you need to do, but the recovery journey is still not that dissimilar from what others have walked. And so I want to encourage people that are listening where you feel like, well, there's a part of my story. In fact, I think it's a part of what keeps some people out of group or out of counseling, because they're like, well, that's a group for people that just struggle with pornography. But my struggle includes fill in the blank, whatever it is. And that's different. They won't know how to handle me. I don't know how to talk about it, So I just won't engage. And yet, the truth is, we all feel like there's something in our story that's uniquely unhealthy or sinful or painful, whatever it is. But if we're willing to bring that forward, if we're willing to entrust it to God and to others that are there to help, there can be recovery, there can be hope. And that. That's not going to be a simple thing or a quick fix. It's not just to pray it away and the next day you're better. It's. It will be a long road. But that long road can lead to a very different, beautiful life. And that's what you're sharing in that story. And I think it's really, really amazing what that couple walked through.

Yeah. And, you know, to have somebody like you that's worked with several couples and been doing this a long time, just to have somebody land in your office and you be able to say, I have helped people in a similar situation, that alone is, like, right away. That would be. That would be my ticket. I'd be like, okay, I'm ready. I'm ready to sign up. Because you so Desperately just want somebody to. To help you find the way. And we don't know what we don't know. So we have. We have no idea that there can be this better future out there where we're not living feeling like a prisoner in our own brain. And so that's a really, really beautiful story of that couple and being able to function again without being chained to that trauma and that experience.

Yeah. As you're bringing up in that story, Dr. Sherry, trust was shattered. Trust was shattered in a very painful way. And that is so often the case for betrayed spouses that the trust has just been completely shattered. And so learning to trust again, to trust not only other people, but to trust God, even, like, where was God in this pain and why did he let this happen to me? That rebuilding of trust can be a process. So how do you help others rebuild trust in God and others after betrayal?

That's a great question. You know, I have a chapter in my book called where is God? Because I was married to a pastor. So to have a pastor, right, sexually act out and betray me, to be very confused about that. And I really felt like I heard the Lord give me his head nod for Connor when we. Before we married. And I felt like I was walking on the right path. So there was a lot of disillusionment and. And, you know, having grown up, you know, as a kid, I was in children's church, and I remember that the flannel graphs where the teacher would put these, you know, paper figures up, and she'd tell some story in the Bible, and, you know, and I would sit there, vacation Bible school or, you know, children's church, and I would watch all these stories. And it felt like when everything happened, my spirituality was like, on that flannel graph piece of, you know, material. But it literally, like, ripped a hole, like if I had a quilt. And there was a cannonball that went through the quilt, and it just ripped through the fabric, and there were just these hanging strings. And I was like, I don't even know who God is. I don't even know why God. You are not seeing me and rescuing me. Do you see what's at stake here? It's not only my life. There's a whole church. There's congregation, there's families, there's, you know, and I just wanted somebody, a bigger, higher power to. To do something. And I really didn't see God as impotent. I felt God was very powerful. He's all knowing. He's all powerful. So why didn't he do Anything. And that disillusionment. I think there needs to be space with folks that are healing from feeling unseen or dropped or, like, what is going on here? It's in my book. I talk about the dirty Dozen. Well, that's a spiritual faith trauma. It's one of the dirty dozens. And it's something that happens in betrayal. I was just. I. I wanted to share a verse because I think one of the first steps is actually believing that God isn't okay with what's happening. And so I have a verse that it's. It's one of those verses that's out there. You know, it's quoted. You'll see it, you know, on cards or, you know, hear it. And it's Jeremiah 29, 1113. I want to read it, but then I have something to add. So it's Jeremiah 29, 1113. And the context of this letter is that it came from the prophet Jeremiah, and it was actually sent to Jerusalem to those who've been exiled from Jerusalem to Babylon. So these people were exiled and they were hurting. They'd been displaced. And I could relate to that, right. So much as a betrayed partner. And it says, for I know the plans that I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call on me and come to me, and I will. You will pray to me and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and bring you back from captivity. Now, you might be hearing me right now going, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. Like, how could this be the plans of God? Right? But. And this is so deep. It goes so deep into what the words actually mean. But I want to tell you, we stop there. I want to read you verse 23. This is the thing that made me stop and go, oh, my goodness, Lord, why do we stop at 11? It's verse 23, says this. For they have done outrageous things in Israel. They have committed adultery with their neighbors wives. And in my name they have uttered lies which I did not authorize. I know it, and I am a witness to it, declares the Lord. Now, I just love the fact that there is a verse in the Bible that says, I did not authorize that. This is not okay with God. And I also love that God says, I know it, and I'm a witness to what happened. Now, for betrayed partners, where there's a lot of deception and lies, and cover up and, and Nick, I'm not picking on you. But you know, you know, go back to when you were in your acting out. I'm sure you were lying, you were covering up, you weren't being honest and integrous and, and that dishonesty, that cover up when your partner is picking up on cues and she's seeing things, it does a mind pretzel twist and it's harmful to us. It's so disorientating. So to know that God knows it, He's a witness, he sees it, he's not in the dark, and he didn't authorize it. I think for some might be that very first step in realizing that God is on your side. He's not okay with what's going on.

That power of empathy is so important. And as you're bringing up to recognize that God empathizes, He doesn't just sympathize and feel bad like, oh, I'm sorry you're hurting. But that God says, I know you know, this actually is my message I'm bringing at the summit where God says to Israel in Exodus 3, I've heard their cries. I've seen the mistreatment. Their cries have reached my ears and I am aware. And God uses actually in that verse the word yada. I know that. And that's a deep kind of intimate knowing of knowing his people and knowing their pain and being with them in it, which I think is so powerful because I'm sure Israel during those hundreds of years in slavery had to feel like, does God even know? Does he even care? Is he with us? And so for God's statement to Moses to be, I know and I care and I'm with you in this, I think is powerful. And that's what you're saying is when we know that God is with us in the pain, then we can trust that he can walk with us in the recovery. And if God can be with us in that, I think the idea that perhaps other people can as well, or it might be through other people that we get that understanding that, oh, God can meet me in this place and God does know what happened. And he was a witness. And he said, I didn't authorize this and I'm not okay with it. And there is punishment that is going to come because of that behavior. And yet God pronouncing blessings still to those people that are in captivity I think is just a beautiful metaphor of what does happen in recovery as we need to recognize both God's blessing and plans through hard Things. But also that statement you said so beautifully that he witnessed it and is not authorizing it and is not okay with it. It's so important.

Yeah, I definitely felt like that after being married the second time to a Christian and then having disclosure come out, like, what the heck, God? I'm trying to do it right. Why would you let me bring my twins into this second marriage? And. And I definitely can wrestle with being very honest with God. The other day, I was. Lost my keys, and the kids were at youth group. I. I made my son go to youth group because we're new in town here, and I'm like, you need friends. And so I'm like. Like, I'm gonna be 20 minutes late, and this is my only car because the truck is getting worked on, and I'm. I'm. I found myself, like, screaming out loud, like, God, you know exactly where these keys are, and, you know, the kids are already traumatized, and now I'm gonna be late. And I made them go to youth group, and, like, I'm just, like, freaking out. And then as I. I found them, and after 20 minutes and I'm driving and I'm late, and I'm like, you know, okay, God, maybe they made a connection with a kid as they're waiting for me to pick them. Like, I started thinking about this opportunity side. But I remember in the early recovery, like, then feeling shame that I was so angry, you know, and so just like. Like a toddler, you know, who has a tantrum. God has so much more capacity and. But to just keep pursuing and asking him, like, what is it you want me to learn? Or can I trust you? And just continuing to. To try to. To hear what he's having to say because he is so trustworthy. And a lot of times, it's something like this experience that brings you to recognize that God is the anchor, that he is the person you can always trust, that he does see that he does empathize. And I'm thankful for that growth that I had with God. Out of all of the betrayal, you know, it just. I don't think I could have got there any other way, so.

And I just love, love, love that you were just vulnerable with us to, you know, let me know and let us know. We're listening to you. You know, having gone through it a second time, like, there must be so much shame attached to that.

Oh, yeah.

And I think a lot of partners who, you know, feel it the second time, it's so different because, you know, what happened. I never wanted to Be here again. Right. And with your kiddos, never wanted them to have to walk through that again with you. And yet you're saying to all of us right now, in this moment, God is with me. Even now.

Yeah, even now, always. So, yeah, thank you for highlighting that. Okay, so for those walking alongside someone who is in trauma recovery, how can we best support loved ones without inadvertently minimizing their pain? And is there room for offering hope?

Yeah, I. I think as some very concrete things. Number one is if you're coming alongside somebody that's in pain because of what they're going through, right. With the acting out and the betrayal trauma, I want to, first off, say, realize that you're going to have feelings about their feelings. You're going to have feelings about both sides of the equation, both people. Betrayal trauma is so far reaching. I just honestly see it as a. It's a weapon of the enemy to destroy families. It's like this silent killer, right? And I'm not being dramatic, I'm just like, that's how I see it. Infiltrates in the home. And so it's very easy to have feelings because you also, as the caretaker, as a caregiver, as the friend, as the whoever you are that wants to love, you're experiencing your own betrayal trauma feelings. And so because of that, you might get overwhelmed, you might get angry, you might feel like you want to pull away. You might actually feel very burdened by what's going on. And in the initial stages, you might be very, very ready, a ready helper. And then just to love and care and support. And then like in the days and weeks and months ahead, you might just kind of drift off and not be checking in on that person anymore. So I want you to be aware of your feelings. Have a safe place where you can get those out. Right. Download those. It might be that you do your own work. Just be compassionate on yourself. Pace yourself. Okay? The second thing is I want to create an image of holding a sacred bag, like a hefty garbage bag. I just want you to imagine holding it so when that person who's betrayed is needing to get all their pain out, that's what happens. There's so much. They're so disillusioned, they're so hurting, they're so frustrated, they're so confused. It's such, you know, hurt, anger, fear, vitriol, it's all of that. I want to encourage you to hold the sacred bag. You don't have to fix what's going in the bag. They just need you to Listen and validate what they're saying. Don't fix. Listen, be there, be present. The third thing is I just want to encourage you to believe them when they're coming to you and they have a discovery and they found a piece of information because they've been on a truth seeking mission. That's what I call it. I don't call it detective work. I don't call it snooping. I don't. I think that's derogatory. I think it's a truth seeking mission. And if they're on a truth seeking mission and they find some stuff, disclosures, you know, like discoveries, believe them, don't challenge them. Don't question and say, well, maybe, maybe he was just, you know, don't do it, think it. But just don't say that to her because it took a lot of courage for her to trust you to bring the evidence. And she just needs to be held and believed, comforted and believed, emotionally held and believed at that moment. That's validation. That is love at that point. So those would be the three things that I would recommend, very practical, that can help those helping people that are walking this out.

I love that. Dr. Sherry. And I want to speak from my own experience as the addicted spouse who, if we're both in recovery and our spouse is staying with us in some regard, we have a role to play as the one they might come to with their pain and they. They need to get it out and they're processing with us. And I very much found myself in that place as needing to help fix it because I felt bad that I'd caused the pain or as my wife would be maybe venting, I would want to correct the inaccuracies, like, well, it wasn't that many times or that many years, you know, anything she was saying wrong, like, well, let's be factual. And what I learned with her help, I say I didn't learn this on my own with her help. And our counselor was, in those moments, she wasn't worried about logic or fact. She was sharing feelings. And as soon as I did anything to correct, even if it was factually based, what I was saying is that her experience was invalid and I wasn't receiving the feelings. And one of the mantras that I developed in that season of early recovery is we would go into these times, you know, often alone at night after the kids have been put to bed, and we're kind of processing our recovery. If she would start feeling some strong emotion and sharing what she was experiencing or when she had thought about what I'd done. I would tell myself, I caused this pain. I need to let her get it out. I'm the cause of this pain, and I need to let her get it out. And to see it more from that lens of like, this is cathartic for her to be able to share her reality and just have me listen and receive it and say things like, wow, I hear you, and thank you for the reminder of how painful this is to you, because it makes me know how serious I need to take my recovery without doing anything. Even if I felt like her emotion in that moment was totally out of proportion to what was the trigger, that didn't matter. It was because it was all connected for her. And so that advice you gave of just listening and don't fix correct redirect, just like, just let it come and say, wow, thank you for sharing that. That is so helpful for me to know. And now I know how to support you better.

So good. I mean, that just feels good. Hearing.

Does feel very good here. I would just add one more thing, one step beyond that. For the person who's holding the garbage bag, the person who's letting her get everything out or him. You're. You're telling yourself, let. This is their pain that I caused. I need to just let her. Him process it. If you end up walking away from that and then feel angry toward your spouse, like, well, she didn't have that right, or he. I don't even know where that came from. And then you're starting to stew on bitterness from that experience, please go talk to somebody for yourself, not your spouse. Go talk to your mentor, your group leader, your. Because then we get back into that whole passive aggressive behaviors cycle. If we don't then take what just got dumped into our trash bag to help process that maybe with somebody who's not involved.

Yeah. And what a great reminder, Dr. Sherry, that you're going to have feelings about their feelings and you're going to have. You're going to have feelings about your own feelings. Because I remember that kind of double bind as well that I would have. As she would share, I'd be feeling deep shame because it would remind me of the things I'd done. And then I. And shame for me, usually connected to anger because now I'd be angry that I'm feeling ashamed. And then I could turn that towards her. Like, well, now she's causing me to feel shame and just to be able to realize, like, I'm having feelings about my feelings and I need to process the why and if I could come and say, oh, it's because it tapped into that shame that I'm learning to let go of. Oh, okay. Well, that makes sense. And she wasn't doing that on purpose. She was just being real, then I could deal with my feelings appropriately as well and not turn them back on her. So. Well said, Ashley. Dr. Sherry, this has been so good. And I think listeners can definitely see why we've invited you to the summit and think you'll be such a great guest with us. But as we wrap up today, would you just share why you think people attending the Pure Desire Summit will get a lot out of it and why they should consider coming?

My goodness. I think it's an amazing opportunity for. For you to be boots on the ground, face to face with real people who understand this and actually want to help you. I know that my main talk I'm going to be, it's called Anchored in trust, rebuilding unshakable foundations after betrayal. And I. I really believe some of what you just talked about, Nick. I can see that there's some dark dives that people do, right? That deflection, that blame and all that, that end up eroding trust and keep couples in a chronic state of dis. Ease, you know, disease. I'm going to be. We're going to be busting those myths. I'm going to be telling you what they are so that you can actually steer clear of those and begin to focus in on what are the things that I see in couples that end up actually building a hearty foundation of trust that's unshakable. And so that's one of the talks I'm going to do. And then the other one, it's going to be a breakout session. I'm going to be talking. It's called Hope After Powerful steps to taking your femininity, sensuality and sexuality back. What is that? I'm going to be talking about the impacts to sexuality of all this stuff. Now, there's not a lot of people that talk about that because talk about stepping into the murky waters and beginning to just open up the impact as well as what is healthy sexuality, what is unhealthy sexuality? So by the end of that time together, you're gonna know beyond a shadow of a doubt what healthy sexuality looks like. You're gonna have a list, and you're gonna also know what unhealthy sexuality look like. And I have people that hear me talk on this, and they're like, I never even knew what it was supposed to look like because I've been living in this work for so long and we're going to be talking about some things that most people don't even talk about. Like, you know, things that I've learned happened in the area of sexuality because I've done lots and lots of therapeutic full disclosures and polygraphs. So what are some of the sexual violations? What are some things that happen when there's violations of the. In the marriage. Sexually. So. Yep. So you're gonna, you're gonna get a whole lot from the time that we're together. And all I need. And all we need is you jump in because you won't be disappointed. There's gonna be so much there that's available to you.

Yeah.

So.

So good, Dr. Sherry. And if that doesn't make you want to attend the summit, I don't know what will. So if you haven't yet, you should go visit PureDesureSummit.com that's PureDesureSummit.com to sign up. You can come and join us in person and meet Dr. Sherry live and have her sign a book for you here just outside of Portland, Oregon. Or you can do the live streaming event which either way you get copies of the sessions that you can watch for some weeks later so that you get all the breakouts. And yeah, we can't wait for the event to get here. So Dr. Sherry, thank you again for being a part of it and for this look into hope and that often at the beginning of our journey we feel like we're looking up that mountain and it can feel hopeless. But when we have others that have gone before us that can share stories of healing, when we have people that can guide us, that can walk in community with us and show that empathy to say, you're not alone. And when we learn to recognize God's grace and his presence with us in it, we really can experience transformation. And so thank you for joining us, Dr. Sherry. We look forward to hearing from you in the very near future.

You bet.

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