415 - Anchored in Hope: A Conversation with Jake Porter

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Listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today, you're listening to episode 415, and here joining me as my co host for this series is Ashley Jamison. Ashley, welcome back to the podcast. How are you doing this week?

I'm doing good, and I'm glad to be here highlighting our summit speakers. I feel like it's very appropriate for me to host this series with you since I'll be the emcee and kind of our kickoff and introducing them to our listeners.

Yes, well, in the magical world of editing and recording, we're filming this one at a much later time than the other ones. But really grateful. I mean, we're coming up on the time of the summit. This is really a time where people start to make plans and register. And that's, if I'm being honest, Part of our motivation to have Dr. Jake Porter on is we feel like if people know the quality of speaker who's coming and the kind of content that gets covered at the summit, they're going to want to sign up. And so talk a little bit about that, Ashley, like, why should people come to the summit and hear Dr. Jake Porter, who they're about to hear from today?

Yeah, well, just as a lifelong learner, I'm always researching. It's just my sweet spot, my happy spot. And anytime I see Dr. Jake on the lineup for speakers at a conference, I'm like, I don't even care what he's saying. Speaking on. I'm going because our podcast, you know, at the beginning, you said we're biblically based and clinically informed. And I think Jake, Dr. Jake does a really good job encompassing that, that he is not only a pastor, but he's clinical and he sees patients and, and men and women. So the way that he just constantly integrates the spiritual and the. And the psychology and, and then real life, real lived experience is so refreshing. And then I mention it, you know, in the episode, just. Just having him be a man that speaks so confidently on what betrayal does to somebody in. In this kind of situation, I think is just extra encouragement maybe for that betrayed spouse and for that struggling spouse to hear. To hear somebody say, yeah, this is, this is real and this is what's happening. So all around a great speaker.

Yeah. And this is part three of four of our summit guest speaker series. And so if someone recommended the Pure Desire podcast to you, just this week or you're listening today for the first time. Welcome in. We're so glad you're here, but we would love to have you catch the first two speakers so you really get a sense of the lineup with Dr. Sherry Benham Keffer and with Dr. Adrian Hickman. And then next week you'll get to hear from our Pure Desire team. But it's going to be a great lineup and we're so excited to have Dr. Jake Porter with us. So a little bit about him. Dr. Jake Porter is a licensed professional counselor and a professor with expertise in developmental neurobiology, attachment theory, and relational dynamics. As the creator of the couple centered recovery model, he has developed an innovative approach for helping couples rebuild trust and heal after betrayal trauma. Dr. Jake is the CEO of Daring Ventures, a counseling and coaching organization based out of Houston, Texas, where he works with individuals and couples to foster emotional resilience, relational wholeness, and personal growth. Dr. Jake is a board member of the association of Partners of Sex Addict Trauma Specialists, or appsats, and an accomplished speaker who regularly addresses academic, faith based and professional audiences. Jake and his wife have two daughters and live in Houston, Texas. And here now is our conversation with Dr. Jake Porter as part of the summit speaker series. Hope you Enjoy the conversation. Dr. Jake Porter, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. Great to have you today.

Thank you, Nick. I'm glad to be here with both of you.

Yeah, we are excited to have you coming to the Pure Desire Summit this year. A first time as a featured speaker. And I know that many who attend the summit are looking forward to it as well. And getting you back to Portland, Oregon is always a good thing.

I, you know, I don't know why God keeps bringing me to Portland, but this would be like the sixth time in two or three years. It's crazy. Yeah. So looking forward to it.

Well, we love you here. So the theme of this year's summit is anchored in hope. And with your experience in sex addiction and betrayal, trauma and recovery, how does the theme of hope play a crucial role in the recovery process for individuals and couples?

Oh, it's. It's absolutely huge. And I mean, I can come at this from a lot of different angles. I'll start with the angle of just like what research says about healing when you're working with a mental health counselor, therapist, a coach, how crucial it is to actually have hope. In fact, if you look at what they call a meta analyses, like where they take studies of studies so where, where you're asking the question, why do people heal? What are the mechanisms of action that actually cause people to get better when they do therapy or when they go engage in a healing process. Hope is one of the top two or three ingredients. If I don't, if I don't believe that there's something better that can come, it's going to really impact my experience in the moment, what I'm open to, what I'm believing for. And I think that that's. There's a spiritual reality to that as well. Yeah. The expectation of, of something better. The desire and expectation of something better that is possible and can come. Yeah.

Yeah. I remember early in our discovery that being, you know, one of the things I thought, like, if this currently, how, how I'm feeling right now in this moment, if this is what I'm signing up for, for the rest of my life, I don't want any part of it. I'm done. And it was really hopeful to me for me to read when I ordered the Betrayal and beyond material and, and saw the. His reality, her reality, and the, you know, the different perspectives of that. This, this is how you're feeling in the moment. And, and that gave me the hope that, okay, I'm feeling like this now. But this person who's been there, done that, has helped thousands, is saying it's not going to always feel that way. So let me, at least for the next nine to ten months, trust her and this process to see if it makes a difference. And if not, I'll be in the same place I'm in now, leave this marriage then. And, and then I started to experience change and, and get that little glimmers of hope along the way that kept me going.

What. One of the things that I love to get, that I get to say to couples is, hey, I see no reason to not have hope now. I don't. And I want to be really clear about this in case anyone's listening. They're like, wait, he said that to me? Is that just a throwaway line? It's not. I do not say it to every couple. Yeah, I, I don't, I actually don't say that to everybody. I, I don't say it if I don't mean it. And there have been times where I haven't felt like I would be really in my integrity to say that. But when I see reason for hope, I always say that to people, and if they're not in a place to feel it for themselves, then I'll follow that up with. And listen, I'm. I am eager, willing, ready, and would be honored to hold that hope for you until you're ready to. To feel it for yourself.

That's really good. It makes me think of the Stockdale Paradox, where they did the study of who survived prisoner bore camps in World War II. And those that didn't survive were often in the camp of having false hope, of always thinking, oh, we're gonna be out by Christmas. We're gonna be out by the. We're all. It's almost there. And they just almost had this false reality. And then conversely, people that had no hope also didn't make it. But it was this middle group that held on to a belief that we one day are gonna get out of this and. And were willing to face the full reality of what they were in and walk through it and kind of keep that tension. And to me, that is so key to recovery that we have to have this belief that we can change, it will get better, that our marriage or our personal life will be in a different place. And I'm going to stay in the really nitty gritty, raw, difficult stuff of the present moment with the hope that we're getting there and keeping those two intention being so important.

Yeah, yeah. Hope has to be grounded in reality. Right. It. Hope is different than fantasy. Hope is different than a dream. It's got to be grounded in what's really going on, you know, which can be a difficult balance. But that's. That's why we need each other, you know, to. To keep those. Those anchors there for us.

Yeah. And even as somebody who's been in this process for a while, when I. When I talk with other people who have been on the journey for a long time, or maybe they're leaders or even other professionals, and you're just sharing real life, you know, reality with each other. Often they'll say it's. It's reassuring and comforting to know that other people are going through the same thing. And so even way down on your journey to be able to be realistic with what life looks like, that life is going to have ups and downs. And I think it took betrayal for me to realize that I was never going to reach this moment in life where everything was just like, picture perfect Pleasantville, that. That is not actually reality. As a human being with blood, you know, like, it's just not reality. So. But so much joy and so much hope to be had. So I really love this next question because this was kind of part of my story in taking the first steps to healing. So for those struggling with sex addiction, hope can often feel distant. So how can we understand the neurobiology? How can understanding the neurobiological aspects of addiction bring hope to individuals who feel trapped in destructive.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think this is important. Regardless of, kind of which side of the betrayal you find yourself on, whether you're the person who. Who committed that betrayal or you're the person experiencing. Experiencing that betrayal. Understanding what's going on in your brain, in your body, in your nervous system, I. I just think it's. It's really potentially powerful because it's validating. It lets you know this isn't just all in your head. You know, there's. There's something real to this. And. And I love, especially getting to talk about this in front of audiences where we can talk about our faith at the same time. You know, God. God. God's design for us isn't, oh, well, your body is. It's just a body, and it doesn't really matter. Your spirit's what matters. Your soul is what matters, and your body's just kind of the container it has to be in until you go to heaven. That's. That's not the biblical narrative at all. Our bodies really matter, and there's a strong integration between what's happening in our bodies and what's. What's happening in the formation of our soul. And. And so. So understanding, for example, that addiction is real, that compulsive behaviors are real. It's not merely lack of willpower. It's not merely moral weakness or whatever. Is it sin? Yeah, I. I'm. You know, some people try to steer away and make it all sort of this, you know, disease model thing and take morality out of it. I can't get there. Sorry. You know, things are still right and things are still wrong, but it's also not that simple. Right? And I think that's part of the Fall, like in Romans 8, where Paul writes about how all creation is groaning, waiting eagerly for, you know, this to be set free from bondage to decay. Well, our bodies are part of that, he says, and we ourselves are groaning too. And part of that is that the effects of the fall and the effects of sin include these things that happen in our brains, these hijacked neural pathways that can develop that undermine our ability to image God as we're designed to do. And so addiction is real. And at the same time, flipping to the other side of this for the person who experienced the betrayal and discovered the betrayal and is now, you know, cycling around these questions, you know, he or she can't even stop asking these Questions, but what, but where, but how, but you know, or maybe so hyper vigilant now, so keyed up, so on edge, so raw. Maybe maybe they're using language they never used to use. Maybe, maybe they're finding themselves with these outbursts that are so contrary to the identity they have for themselves. Well, guess what? We know that the discovery of betrayal has a traumatic effect, literally, physically, in the neural pathways of the brain, affecting the amygdala and affecting the hippocampus and causing these symptoms. So understanding that this is real, like observable, these things going on in the brain, it means you're not crazy. It means maybe your brain is reacting just the way it was designed to react, to protect you, you know, so there's hope in that. There's also hope in that because it means your brain can heal.

Yeah, I know early in my recovery process, that was a tremendous source of hope because I felt like I had tried, you know, I wasn't living this closet double life that finally got exposed. Like I was living a 15 year journey of every time was the last time. And so I had the accountability software and had the guardrails and all these things in place that you just, you feel hopeless of like, what more can I do? And I kind of took that into counseling of like, well, I don't know what you're going to tell me that I haven't already tried. And I was thinking more of methods and divert the eyes and snap the rubber band and, and they start going into the brain. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what? Like, like you can actually see in my brain these pathways. And, and I was very much in the morality sin camp of like, well, that's just the problem. I need to stop doing this bad behavior. And when I began to understand this whole body brain connection and the pathways in the brain and what transformation looked like, I think that hope was very different than anything I'd experienced because it wasn't just hope of going one more day of sobriety. It was hope of something can actually change. And yes, it will involve my morality and it will involve choosing right over wrong, but that there was a lot more to the story than I understood. And having someone who'd walked that road and was a professional in this area explain it and unpack it. It was like, oh, a whole new world opened up. And I think when that happens, we have hope because we see there's so much more that I've just never even understood here. And, and that is, I think, a big part of what we do. In the. The various work and ministries that we're a part of.

This is actually part of what I'm going to get to talk about at the summit coming up is I'm going to talk in part about the importance of our bodies and what we do with our bodies and how our bodies really, really matter. And I think, I mean, I've worked at this point, I don't even know hundreds, I might even be able to say over a thousand. I don't know because I don't really keep track of the numbers. But I've worked with a lot of men. It's to some degree or another, whether it's in groups that I'm large groups on coaching or even just individually. I've worked with lots and lots of men in recovery and lots of guys who are sent to me because they've struggled to actually get sober and get tract in recovery. And what I have learned is now I always start with what's going on in their physical body. Always. Are you getting enough sleep? What are you eating? How much movement are you getting? Those. Those questions. Because if your body physically is compromised, it will compromise this, the healing of your mind, of your soul. I really believe that.

Yeah, I really, I really do too. Do you remember, do you remember, Jake, when I came up to you at Sills a few years ago and I said that you were such an inspiration for us tackling, rewriting, betrayal and beyond? Because a few years before that I had not heard a man talk from such a big platform, a professional man in this field advocate for what's happening in a betrayed spouse's mind, body and soul. And it was so encouraging. I just like glommed on to you when I found your videos and was like, yes. Because as a female, if you are the one going through betrayal, it's often, especially in the church setting where you're like, oh, have you had enough sex? And oh, are you praying enough? And oh, all the things that I experienced and many, many other betrayed spouses have experienced to. So first, specifically, I'm talking about women, even though this happens with both, to have somebody of the opposite gender who's a professional saying this is real, I mean, it's just like double down on the validation that it's somebody else. So I just wanted to just thank you for that and being a voice in that area.

I appreciate that. That feels good to hear. That means a lot.

Good. You're doing great work. I can't wait to share you with our audience.

Well, we know that betrayal trauma is deeply and Uniquely painful and can lead to a loss of hope for many couples and the betrayed spouse. And it can leave deep scars in a relationship. And so Jake, when that's happening, how can couples begin to rebuild trust and begin to discover some hope again in their relationship?

Yeah, it's a great question. And I mean, you know, I can, I could talk for four hours on that one question, but I won't. Yeah, it could be, but, but I'll, I'll hit that. What I think are kind of the high points, I think absolutely the first, the very first sort of goal, the first point we're trying to reach in this long journey is around truth. It's around getting honest, telling the truth. And this is so vital for so many reasons. It's vital for the, the one who's been betrayed, who's had the truth hidden. Because I guarantee you that 95, and I'm going to be conservative with that number. I could probably go even higher. 95% of the partners I've worked with have said, listen, the behaviors were painful, but the lying is what's most threatening to me. If the lying doesn't stop, I, I can't, I can't go on. Because they're constantly in a straight of state of distress. Right? And, and if there is not a demonstrated capacity for honesty, it is going to be really difficult for that betrayed partner to feel hope. Why? Because there's got to be some level of safety to allow myself to feel hope. When someone is totally in hyper vigilance and threat mode, they are in a defense defensive state, they're in a protective state. Okay. They're not letting their wall down to some sort of relational hope in this relationship. And so getting that honesty out there on display through the telling of truth is important, but it's also important for the one telling the truth, the one speaking it, because for so many of those people, often coming clean, really sharing everything, like through a full disclosure process, might be their first time to ever actually speak the truth fully, to ever demonstrate that kind of honesty. And what we usually experience around that is that they have hope because they, a part of them believes they are fundamentally not honest. And they can't be, they might not consciously think that, but they have so lived in deception, even self deception, that, that they aren't sure they can. Right. And so when they have the experience of actually being honest and truthful and they accomplish this, it's a major accomplishment. There's, there's space for hope from that as well. I think that's one of the first major things that a couple has to get through is an experience of truth and honesty.

Yeah, I think what you said, that safety equals hope is so important because many of the people who struggle. I'm thinking of my own story. We think it's assurance or our words. And one of the key things that pure desire says to couples early on is, you know, don't trust his words, trust his actions. And I had used so often my words to try to create a hopeful situation without backing it up by true changed behavior. And that was kind of the 180 for us in the early stages of recovery was my actions need to be different by whether it's going to group or doing my phone calls or the material I was reading, how I was engaging with media and how I was spending time with the kids or not spending time, like, all of that was far more important for my wife to create that feeling of safety. That's because she could visibly see something was actually changing. Not just here that, oh, I'm doing better, and it's great, and you don't have to worry. And, like, she'd heard that for 10 years, and then every time it was false hope. And so to see the behaviors finally gave her something, I think, concrete and visible to begin building that sense of safety around that. Okay, this. This time, it is different because he's behaving differently. He's. He's engaging in different actions. And that safety was probably a big part of hope for my wife. So, yeah, I just. I thought that's really a key thing to keep in mind.

I was just gonna. I mean, everything you said, I. I don't even know how many times I've said that. Like, I can deal with anything as long as I know I'm not chasing the wind. Like, I need to know what I'm dealing with. I am such a go getter. I'm willing to dig in. I have had so many problems. I have no room to judge. You know, just. But when you don't know, it makes you feel crazy. But on the other side, you know where you were saying, even for them to. To start being honest and know they can change. Like, I think back to the agony that my daughter was going through. I think she was like first grade, and she was acting so bizarre, like, not wanting to go to school, not wanting to hang out with friends, like, throwing tantrums on the floor. And one night I just. I mean, it had to have been God and my own crazy past. But I'm like, you know, when I was your age, I used to steal from people. I used to. I just kind of listed all these bad things. And when I wasn't honest about it, it started making me not want to go to school, not wanting to be around people. And sure enough, she had stolen some glue to make slime from her PE teacher. And so we, we replaced the glue, we wrote a letter and she was just like a completely different version. And that was such, like a easy, visible way for me to see. We are not designed to be liars. We're not designed to be living incongruently. And the, the almost like the torment that can happen within you when you're holding a secret and you feel like you can't be yourself around others. And we have other examples of John, but I'll leave him off the platform for today right now. But I just, I just even think about it in that little moment with the stolen glue and how her personality was like, now you can continue to walk in who God designed you to be because you're not holding the secret.

Yes. Well, for so many people, something like that happened way back. I remember I was probably like four, maybe five and. And I, I saw this little Christmas ornament. It was this tiny little gold threaded ball and my mom was a few aisles over and I put it in my pocket and. And I really did accidentally forget about it and got home and I thought, I'm going to jail. You know, I, you know, like I'm going to jail and, and just the fear around that and wanting to keep it a secret. But it doesn't have to be that. It can be sexual abuse. It can be sexual. Play, play between. If you're listening, I'm doing air quotes there among, you know, even kids of the same around the same age, where there's shame and secrecy and those start to get woven together from that early. That has a profound effect, profound effect such that when I finally can get in reality with myself and others, I can finally get in the truth and experience truth. There is a freedom and unburdening that comes from that. One of my favorite quotes is from M. Scott Peck, who wrote the Road Less Traveled. He said mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs. Like when I'm not in reality, I'm going to suffer one way or the other.

That is so good.

Yeah, a good word to keep in mind when we're battling that, that journey, becoming a truth teller and facing the uncomfortability that there's a price to be paid either way. And ultimately the price, the pain of Being honest leads to much better outcomes than continuing to suffer alone. And the price we're paying internally and in separation from others and with God and such a valuable thought to keep in mind. Well, we've talked today, Jake, that hope is a byproduct for many people of having a new approach, seeing that something can change. And for some, this whole conversation about how we're bringing together spirituality, psychology, neuroscience is still relatively new for them. So talk about that a little in your experience. How does combining these things, spirituality, psychology and neuroscience, provide us a more comprehensive path to healing for those that are dealing with addiction and trauma?

First of all, I think that just the way I think is like, like an integrator. That's just, that's part of how I think. And so having. Having studied psychology in my undergrad and then going to seminary and, you know, I was always kind of interested in that anyway. But really this comes from my own personal recovery journey as a man in recovery myself. So, so early on, in my, like, early 20s, I was a young pastor and I was acting, you know, I'm acting in these ways that I know are wrong and I want to stop and I, this is the last time and I'll never do it again. And then I do it again and, and I could even see the escalation happening. And I went, the whole, I hope I don't like, ruffle any feathers here, but like the straight up biblical counseling approach, the newest approach, where, where I was, you know, it was basically like, I need to pray more, I need to confess my sin. I need to replace these thoughts with scripture. And, and that's all wonderful. Like, don't hear me as saying, like, you know, that's bad stuff or whatever, but I can just tell you I was not delivered. I was not. And I did the deliverance thing. You know, I go, I get prayed over and we're casting spirits out and all this kind. I mean, I, I desperately wanted freedom and healing. So fast forward to when I, when I got into recovery and I started going to like 12 step programs, like not exclusively Christian, like actual 12 step programs. And, and a therapist who wasn't a Christian therapist. I mean, this was desperation for me. And the therapist mentioned this book called Addiction as an Attachment Disorder by a guy named Philip Flores. And just the title of it, something. It was like one of those moments where the Holy Spirit just like, was like, touched me when I heard, heard the title of that book, like, pay attention to that and, and I went home and I ordered the book and it was it's not a Christian book at all, but it talked about the, the roots of addictive behavior, being in, in early attachment traumas and attachment issues and, and understanding addiction through this framework of addiction of attachment. And as I was reading it, because I, I am a trained theologian, like an academic theologian, I have three degrees from seminaries and was pretty far down that, that trail. As I'm reading this, I'm going, this is exactly what the Bible says about our nature. Created in the image of a God who exists his relationship. It's not good that man would be alone. The corporate nature of salvation. There's not a single metaphor for being a Christian in the New Testament that is not corporate in nature. Not, not a single one. They're all relational in nature. And so, and I just started putting this together in my head and, and for me, when I was able to bring my faith to bear with the truth of how God created us in the world, you know, how he designed our bodies, our minds, our, our nervous systems, how he designed them to be open to interaction and influence from other nervous systems. And all. When I began experiencing all of that, that's when I began to heal. And so it's deeply important to me from my own journey and now to get to do that with others and try to keep, you know, unfolding new ways in which these worlds all point to God's truth. If it's true, then it's God's truth. That's the bottom line.

To me, that is so good. And I, I don't know that everybody has this experience, but that was very similar to mine. And just being able to integrate it and what you're saying and this is really what God says. I mean, being able to put together, I feel like that was also the key that unlocked things for me. And then making sure. I was just talking to my kids about this the other day just to not let this pendulum swing like, one way or the other too far, because it really is both that God designed our bodies, and if it's truth, it's truth. And if it's truth, it's God's truth. It's not like your truth and my truth and his truth. Like, it's, it's. It's truth. And so it, it really is amazing what it can do when you allow yourself just a little bit of freedom to explore different resources. And I don't know, even that word explore might like, oh, trigger word for some people. But being able, if, if something's not working, then it's not working like that. Should be just overall, the. The thing you ask yourself is what you're doing, working or not. And if not, it's okay to go and. And seek other treatments, try other things. I mean, I would say both of our organizations are great places to start, where we can help you integrate that.

Yeah, I like where you started, Jake. To say that a lot of this is rooted in kind of a false view of the human experience and seeing us in Christ as being only spiritual beings. And by spiritual meaning, kind of that faith, part, spirit part, and believing that everything else will kind of take care of itself if we just get the spirituality piece correct. Or the spirit. But I think of, you know, Jesus saying, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

Yes.

And then recovery. We're kind of only focusing on the heart. Like, well, let's get your heart right. Confess, pray, you know, repent, turn, go in the other direction. Okay, you're good to go. But we're ignoring a body that's out of alignment, that is. Is prone to go in the wrong direction because of all these patterns. We're ignoring the mind and all the thinking that needs to change or even be exposed for the patterns they're stuck in. And to me, soul is kind of that, the emotional center of where am I in relationship to God and myself and all of my feelings. I mean, I knew I had feelings prior to recovery, but I didn't realize those feelings actually mattered in my spiritual journey because I grew up in a very conservative denomination that kind of treated feelings like an afterthought or that they were like a byproduct of being human, but they weren't really ever to be trusted or explored or known. You had feelings, but you didn't really think about them. And to realize like, oh, all my feelings are connected to this journey that to me was understanding my soul. And, and what Jesus is saying with the Old Testament says in that verse is we're. We're bringing our whole self to God. And we're not four unique, different components. They're all one, but they're different aspects of our personality and our experience in this world. And until we understand what healing looks like on all those levels, I think we're going to stay stuck because one of the. The unredeemed or unhealing parts of us will continue to cause us to trip up. And, you know, I would say that to this, the same side of someone who's listening that maybe really hasn't engaged in their faith, hasn't really. They see this as Primarily a self help, like I need to kick this addiction. But they haven't really brought it to God. There is a heart piece, you know, so, so while many of us need the other correction, some do need the reminder of. There is a faith component, there is a repentance component, but it's all of it together, I think that we've seen create such incredible change and momentum in people's lives.

Absolutely. I mean, you know, I also grew up, I think about this, this track and, and the, the, the main point of this track was great, but there was a little illustration of a train. Right. And it's facts, then faith. I remember feelings, remember that? And so facts, then faith and feelings. And, and again, the overall point of that track was, was a good one. But, but we could take that too far. And you know, the whole verse around the heart is desperately wicked, deceitful above all things, and associating heart with emotions and so you can't trust your feelings and da, da, da. But my goodness, the longest book of the Bible, the book of Psalms, it's all about emotion. It's. It's all about emotion. Think of how many times we're commanded around our emotions to be joyful, to be grateful. You know, those matter to God. They're, they're part of, part of how he created us. They reflect his image. And, and what that also means is then when they don't, when they're part of the problem, so to speak, that's, that's not to, that doesn't mean exile them, Set the, you know, set them aside, do away with them. It means. No, bring them back into alignment with his purpose. Bring them back into, you know, integration with who we're created to be. It's, it's absolutely crucial. Yeah.

Yeah. So glad we're talking about this. As one who used to just hate when people asked how I was feeling, it's like so important. So hang in there. Okay. What are some practical steps that individuals can take to rebuild their emotional and relational health after experiencing betrayal trauma?

So if you've experienced betrayal trauma, if you're on the receiving end of that, I, I do definitely think finding community is so important. That's one of the things that I know pure desire does really well and is so crucial in helping churches create healthy, good community here. There's a lot of reasons for community, for finding that network of safe people, for finding that group. But one is you're going to learn a lot. Two, you're going to realize you're not crazy. Three, you're Going to find a safe place to, to feel whatever you're feeling, to think whatever you're thinking, to ask hard questions, to be a mess and, and be okay and be met with, with grace and, and, and then you're also gonna be able to borrow strength from within that community because you might need to set some boundaries. Right? For example, around a disclosure. I, I'm just, I'm just big on that. I just, I don't think couples can heal. I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible for a couple to heal without a big formal, therapeutic disclosure, but I think it's really hard and I think that doing it really does help the process a lot, you know, So I think that that's, finding a group working toward that disclosure is going to be really, really important when you get to the other side of that. Now we're talking about grief work and here, you know, you asked for like practical things and this is not going to sound practical, but unless you're right in the middle of it and then it'll probably sound so practical you want to like reach through the screen and smack me. But be patient, be patient in that grief process, in the morning process, in the what does this mean place, that messy middle of, like, maybe you find yourself ambivalent, flip flopping back and forth between I want it, no, I'm crazy to want it, I don't want it. And you know, like, be really gentle and, and let your, let yourself move through that again in community. I think that that's, that's really important to not rush.

Yeah, well, I can tell you one thing that doesn't work and that's to just try to keep moving on and ignore it. And, and I know in our marriage, you know, as I was creating the trauma for my wife, that was kind of my mindset, both for myself and for her. It's like, okay, I confess, let's just move on. Like, let's just make this work. And it's a bit like driving in a car with a flat tire and you can hear it thumping, but rather than stopping and addressing it, you just turn up the radio. Like, let's just keep going. We're going to get there, it's going to be fine. And meanwhile, you're going from bad to worse, eventually to much, much worse. But I think for many people, that's kind of their approach. Well, you know, let's just get over it, get through it, keep going and kind of stuff down the pain, stuff down the hurt. Because there is a part of us that doesn't want to have to deal with the full reality of what we're feeling, of what it might mean for our relationship, the work that might need to be done. But ignoring it or trying to just stuff it down and keep moving forward typically leads us from bad to worse to much worse. And so as challenging it is to metaphorically pull over the car, find the jack, do the work. And taking the time that it takes, as you said, be patient in the long run is always worth it because it can get us back on the road in a way that can be sustainable versus that just push it down and move on. Is often when we see couples come to pure desire and they're kind of at a breaking point. It's honestly very often because for years, if not decades, they've been trying to just stuff it down and move forward and make it work, and now they've got no other options. And to just say, you know, don't do that to yourself. The earlier in the process you can stop and say, okay, we're going to face this, the better off you'll be.

How you said, you know, we. We've been talking about mind, body, soul. You're saying, we got to start with the body, which I'm so happy about that you're saying that. And then the patience and community. You, those being your, like, two practical things. When, When a betrayed spouse comes to me or even myself, there's no one thing you can give them. If they say, what's the key? What's the practical step? It wouldn't even make sense. Be in community and be patient. Because if you're in the right community, that's key, then it's going to take time to navigate those highs and lows because you've been living in this warped reality, you know, this gaslit reality for so long, or maybe you knew about it, you just didn't know how to break free. But it was your reality and your filter of what is normal, even if it's not healthy. And so, like, after my disclosures with John, my. My rheumatologist, I mean, my blood work was crazy. My body was swelling, my hair was fall, how I was needing B12 injections. And she's like, are you stressed out? And I'm like, no, because. Because I had been. I had been, you know, traumatized as a child. I had been raped, I had been through divorce, I'd been abused, I had been all these things. I've had an eating disorder. And so at that moment, when she asked me, it was the most stable my life had ever been, even though it still was not good. It wasn't until I went through betrayal and beyond, and I started working alongside Heather, who does all of our brain stuff. And, and she gave me this assessment, and she said, I don't want your opinion. Just mark it if it's happened. And I was like, yes, that's happened. Yes, that's happened. Yes, that's happened. It's like, warning, warning, warning. You need therapy. You need, you know, medical healing because of how my scores were, and it was, for the first time, I was able to see what something was objectively. And so just like, it's going to take a while to peel back all those layers and figure out where did things, you know, happen and how did that impact me and what was I feeling? It's not a quick process, but it's. It's such a reliable process that a lot of us have discovered in. In healing and getting to the root of the issues and the pain.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That patience is key. And, And. And the body is going to heal at the pace that it heals. Right. We're often talking about years of trauma, years of gaslighting, years of dysregulation. That. That was sneaky. Right. And subtle. And so it's. It's not like a switch you just flip on or off. Right. It takes time. But I thought of one more practical thing to. To. To fill in with that, to pair with the patients, and that is to know your values, Know the kind of person you want to be. No, there's a lot of ways to say this. The. The true self, or know who God's called you to be or who you are in Christ or who you know that. That version of who you want to be. Know your values and see them like a compass and keep it out in your hand. And as you're navigating this, as you're trying to be patient, as you're making one decision after another after another, as you're dealing with the bodily, the health consequences, the relational difficulties. Do your best. Nobody's going to do it perfectly. Nobody is going to do it perfectly. But do your best to. To act according to those values and to honor yourself by following your own values. You're gonna. You're gonna end up making fewer decisions. You regret making harder decisions in the moment that lead to better outcomes later, and you're going to become more the person you want to be, or you'll lose less of yourself in the process. So that's another practical thing to do.

Yeah, well, Dr. Jake. And a lot of what you've been talking about and what we've been sharing together, we've used terms like patience, a long journey, you know, it takes time. And for some people, that can be difficult to hear. You know, maybe they've found this podcast because they're like, we're going to fix this problem this weekend and we're going to, we're going to be better, we're going to be on our way. And then we start to use words like that. And on the podcast, we've said so many times that this, this can be a two to five year process, particularly in the relationship healing of a marriage. And so with it being a process that can be long and at times very difficult, how do we hold on to hope in the midst of the journey when it feels like this is taking too long or how come we're not further along? How do we hold on to hope in times like that?

Yeah, so I love to, to, to try to think about the narrative of scripture and the big, the big meta narrative of the gospel and the, the ways that God has revealed himself throughout, you know, the history of, of revelation, his revelation of himself to us. And, and if I can, if I can be, if I can understand his normal course of action and if I can then interpret my context according to that, I find that really helpful. That's a big mouthful for saying this. You know, when you, when you study, I'll give you. Let's take Abraham. Abraham, Genesis chapter 12. Starting in verse one, there, God reveals himself to Abraham seemingly out of nowhere. You know, he reveals himself to God and he says, go on, I'm gonna, You're gonna go to a country that I will show you, right? And then he begins this long journey and he ends up headed to Canaan. Right? Well, guess what? If you actually read the verses at the very end of chapter 11, he was headed there anyway. He was already going there. And then God says, I'm going to take you to a lane you didn't know. And then he. And then it's wandering and then he gets there and then fast forward to the Exodus, okay? And, and Moses leads the people out of Egypt and they're going to go to the promised land. But do they go straight there? No, they wander. They wander. And I could, I could keep going through this. This. God's pattern is rarely a straight line moving us in a straight line from point A to point B. It rarely. God's normal course of action is a period that feels like wandering. And that gives me Hope because it tells me he's got a purpose in this. He is doing something here. He's not abandoned me. The wandering is not a sign that I'm doing something wrong. It's not a sign of my disobedience necessarily. It might be, I need to be open to that, but not necessarily. God is doing something in the hardship, he's doing something in the pain and the challenge of it all. I mean, ultimately, could God not have just sent Jesus in a glorified body? I think he could have, but he didn't. He didn't. The cross wasn't a detour, it was the plan. Right. And it's the same way for us, you know, as we're called, to take up our cross and follow him. And I don't want to over spiritualize it, but I think that understanding that God is, no matter where you are in this wandering, God knows right where you are. And just because it feels like wandering to us doesn't mean it's a plan B or off course to God. He's doing something, he's doing something in this and he'll be faithful to the end.

Yeah. I think that's why it can be so easy to quit or give up when we're feeling that way. Like, well, what's the point of this? Where and why it's important right away to get plugged in with a, a community that's going to help support you and keep you going. Because I remember that being like we're worse now than we were when we started because everything was just on the surface and had I not had the people who had been there seen the promised land, so to speak, to say, no, this is normal, this is part of the process. Keep going, you're doing good work. I could easily just been like, I'm done with this, this is not helping. So just that community piece and fellowship. Yeah.

I was thinking along the same lines as you, Dr. Jake, on some of the stories of scripture and how long it took for the promises to be fulfilled. And I remember at one time finding that between God promising Abraham that he would be the father of many nations and he would give him a son. And actually having Isaac was like a 25 year period.

Yeah.

And that seems crazy. And he's getting older and older and Sarah's getting older and older, like, what God, why are you waiting so long? And, and the timing for Joseph to have God given these dreams of his brothers bowing down to him and then they betray him. I think it's 18 years before that story comes to fulfillment, or even the people of Israel going into exile and God through the prophets, promising them that they would be returned. It was 70 years. And I'm not going to try to theologically explain all the years or why it was. But in every one of those situations, what gave people hope or why they persevered, it was because they held on to the promises that God had given them and they believed that he could be, that he would be faithful, that he could be believed to keep his promises. And I think in this journey, whether it's a promise that God has given us from scripture or something, we feel directly from him that the Spirit has said, you know, promising our healing or redemption or recovery to hold on to that. Whether it's a couple of years or, you know, God forbid, a 70 year exile, we believe God can be faithful and he will be faithful to keep his promises. And that I think gives us some of the appetite to walk through a lot of what you were describing, the twists and the turns and the unknowns, because we're holding on to a promise. And that's why in a pure desire group, that's something we emphasize a lot, is what promise, what's a word, what's a picture that God has given you of your recovery and to really hold on to that. I mean, in Seven Pillars of Freedom for Men, we actually ask them to draw a picture like of a promise that God has given them and to think, how can you hold on to that? Because this is going to be a winding path and confusing at times. But if we can hold on to the promise, we can persevere to see it come to fulfillment.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, those promises.

Well.

Update them, you know, hold on to them and also be open to the updates from God, you know, and, and I'm saying that I'm basing that on a couple that I just saw within the last couple of weeks where the, the partner and I don't want to get too much into their story, but there was this one particular like, verse, verse this partner had just latched onto and she was losing hope. And in the midst of us working together, I kind of threw out this other verse. It didn't, it wasn't, it was kind of like a side comment to me, but she said she was like, that's it. And, and, and it just shifted because it was a little different take, it was a little different angle. It was like the flashlight of hope shining from a little different place now and she could see around the corner. And so, you know, if you're in the middle of. And you're like, I've been doing that. I've had my picture of my promise or whatever. Ask God. Maybe that served you well for one season. Guess what? He's still with you. He's still with you. He's still speaking, he's still leading. And maybe there's another, another picture, another promise for the next, Next leg of the journey.

Yeah. Because a lot of times God has something much bigger in mind than we can create. Even if we feel like that is a word right from God, you know, we still kind of put it in our own context of what we think we're able to do.

Yes.

I've experienced that a few times myself. So. Okay, how can we support those in recovery from sex addiction or betrayal trauma in creating a sustainable and healthy relationship with both themselves and others?

Yeah. How can we help them? Well, I, I do think that. And these are themes that just keep coming up in our conversation today. So truth and love, right? I think that truth and love are, are the two components that are critical for someone to, to get into recovery. And, you know, a lot of listeners have probably heard this unfolded, but in case anyone hasn't, you know, communities that are all truth, no love, that's going to be shaming, there's going to be more guilt, there's going to be condemnation there. We've got to have truth. We've got, we've got to be honest. We've got to be able to be honest with ourselves and with others. Communities that are all love, no truth. You know, there's going to be a lot of, a lot of, you know, patting on the back and it's okay and have grace for yourself and, you know, oh, it's, you know, not going to be really getting down into the nitty gritty of what happened and what led to it and, and that, and there's not going to be much healing there either. But, but, man, when we can find, we can find relationships in which we get to experience truth and love together. Like, that's where the transformation happens. That is where the transformation happens, even. And so, you know, finding those safe groups, finding that therapist, that coach that, that sponsor that, that person who can hold both for us, telling them, if you're, if you're in recovery and you're not seeing the change that you want to see, I would say to you, find, think of, make a list of the names of three to five other people in your life who you think, man, if I invite them to speak the truth to me in love, they will do it and then go do that. Say, hey, I need this, and ask them for it. And then you've got to be honest and share with them and then receive from them that, yeah, that's what I would say.

Speaking the truth in love is such an important part of recovery, and I think sometimes we think of that as well. I need to speak the truth about your behavior. But I have seen more often in recovery, it's speaking the truth about someone's value, worth, or identity because they can't see it for themselves. And I think that's what happens in community is we've all got blind spots or we've become accustomed to the lies we believe about ourselves. They're like elevator music because they've been playing for so long about, well, I'm always going to be, you know, rejected, or I'll never be good enough or I'll never measure up. And it's when someone else hears us maybe say a version of that, and they go, whoa, hold on a minute. You know that's not true, right? Like, that's not who you are. And they see something in us that we haven't been able to see, that I have just seen over and over create transformation. It happened just a couple weeks ago in a group that I'm leading where one of the guys was explaining a relationship that he'd had, and he feels a lot of guilt and shame around. And in his sharing as he was done, I said, have you ever considered that that relationship was abusive? Because there was a clear power dynamic between the person and him and what happened, really, the other person in their role and responsibilities should have been the one to say, this is wrong and I'm in the wrong. But they had pointed the finger at him, and he was carrying this burden of, like, what's wrong with me? And in just that simple question of saying, like, have you ever considered that there's another side to the story? It's like something in him really, you could see, just broke of, like, you know, that just occurred to me the other day. And hearing you say that has started to completely change the way I see this whole season of my life. And it's not that I was some brilliant. If any one of you or any of our listeners had heard the same story, I think you'd have had the same thought. Like, wait a minute.

It.

There's a part of the story that you're telling yourself the wrong version of it. But to have someone else speak that out, it's that truth set in love that helps me Start to see myself differently. And I think creates transformation.

Oh, yeah.

And I think people, you know, when I'm going through a hard season and, like, as the struggler, I go to my friends that I know are going to tell me the truth. And, you know, it can be so hard to speak truth to people. We can be afraid of it, but it ends up. You end up being the person that people go to because they know that you're going to tell them the truth and love, you know, that you're going to do it in a loving way. And I. I see that daily with my daughter, like, should I buy this shirt? And I'm like, I wouldn't have skulls on it, you know, or whatever. You know, whatever. And she's like. They're like, well, you asked my opinion. And then two minutes later, she's coming back to ask my opinion again because she genuinely does, even if it's hard to hear. And. And I know I go right to my friends who are truth tellers. I actually, like, hone in on those type of women in my life because I have a really strong personality and I know it all recover. I'm recovering from being a know it all. And so I. I want the women in my life who are going to tell me the truth and not be afraid to say that to me. And so it is important to find at least a couple people like that in your life that you, you know, are gonna not sugarcoat anything. Free. We all have those friends, like, oh, they're just gonna tell me what I want to hear. They're just gonna agree with me. And that's not who you go to.

No. Not for growth.

No change. No. That's. They have a different role. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

Well, Dr. Jake, this has been so good, and we are so excited to have you at the summit. So give us your perspective on why should someone listening attend the Pure Desire Summit and what can they expect to gain from the event and your talk that will help them find hope and healing in their journey?

Yeah. So I think that the number one reason probably to go to this summit, I think the content is going to be great, but I. I anticipate that the community is going to be really special. I. I think that the people of Pure Desire, I'm not just saying this because you are right in front of me and I'm on the Pure Desire podcast, but I really mean it. I think that. That Pure Desire is such a fantastic ministry, has such integrity, such an amazing team, and so anything that y' all create is going to reflect that. And I believe that that's going to sort of flow down to the entire community of people that get to be there together. And I would go, listen, I would go open, ready, expecting, even determined to, like, meet new people, make more connections, find folks during the break. Find people you don't know and introduce yourself and sit, sit next to people you don't know and make some connections. Because I think, I think that's so vital. And then on top of that, I do believe the content is going to be really good, Solid, biblically based, but also psychologically sound material for people who desire to honor God with their whole selves, including their sexuality. I think we need more of that in this world. And I'm excited to be there, not just to present, but to learn, because I know that I will. I know I'm going to learn. I've looked at the list of speakers. It's going to be great. I get to talk twice, once for a keynote and once for a breakout, I think. And during the keynote, I'm going to be talking about something I call integrity driven recovery, which is about body and soul and, and. And really aligning our whole selves. How. How do I take recovery out of the realm of just being about my sexuality or just being about my psychological health? And make. Comes back to the. The verse that you quoted earlier, Nick. You know, how do I love the Lord with my entire being, my heart, mind, soul and strength. What does it look like when we're out of alignment in one way or another? So that's kind of a new thing. In fact, this will be the first kind of public place that I really talk about this. This thing I've been working on. So I'm really excited about that.

Yeah, there you go. Pure desire summit.

That's right. And then during the breakout, I'm going to get to talk about being single. Yeah. Which. Which a lot of times our single folks don't get it. A lot of. A lot of air time or a lot of material for them. I'm guilty of that because I work with couples all the time. But I was a single man in recovery. I know what that's like. I was a single man in the church in recovery. And churches don't always leverage their singles and appreciate singles as much as they could or should or ought. I'm going to talk about the place of the unwed in God's kingdom and their calling and what a high calling it is. And so I'm excited to get to do that as well.

Yeah, it's gonna be so good.

Yeah, we're, we're very excited. So today, Dr. Jake's insights remind us that hope is not just a feeling, it's a foundation for healing. And as we've heard today, through the integration of neuroscience, attachment theory and spiritual truth, we can better understand the roots of addiction and betrayal, trauma, and more importantly, how to move forward. So whether you're on the journey yourself or walking alongside someone who is, hope can anchor you through the storm and keep you moving forward. So don't miss the Pure Desire Summit. It's a place where hope meets real tools for lasting transformation. Dr. Jake, thanks so much for joining us today and we really look forward to seeing you back here in Portland again for the Pure Desire Summit coming up soon.

Thank you. Looking forward to it.

And if you're a fan of the show and today's content, please subscribe, share it with somebody. Write us a review. In fact, I want to say this, listeners, I just saw a list that based our podcast on how many reviews we had for popularity. So hey, maybe if you give us a review, we'll keep moving up lists. And what that means is that more people can find this life changing content. And if you want more information about Pure Desire, groups, resources or counseling, Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.