416 - Anchored in Hope: A Conversation with Bob VanderMeer & Heather Kolb

Foreign listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is episode 416, and here joining me throughout this series is my co host, Mrs. Ashley Jamison. Ashley, welcome back. One more time for this series.

Hello. I'm happy to be here. It's a good episode today with our friends.

It is. It's always fun when we get to do kind of a roundtable with other PD staff. And Heather Kolb and Robert Vandermeer are two of our favorites. They've been on the podcast many times before, but we got to interview them today because they are two of the featured speakers at our upcoming summit, which is themed Anchored in Hope. And Anchored in Hope has been our podcast theme for these last four episodes. Today is the last one. So tell us a little bit about what listeners might expect from today's conversation about being anchored in hope with Bob and Heather.

I think. I think there's a lot of discussion today just practical examples. I mean, if you're on the outside or. Or you haven't stepped into any kind of pure desire process, you might want to, like, have some feet and some language or, you know, like practical things put to having hope, because that feels very elusive. And I think we gave a few examples today to show that we are not a minister, ministry, or an organization that just says, have more hope, pray more, have more hope. Like, that kind of falls in the same category. And I think Bob and Heather both do a really good job explaining what that means and what that could actually look like to. To be able to hang on to hope and have hope. And then they give a glimpse into what the summit's like. So, you know, it can be hard to pull the trigger on something like paying for tickets and like, tickets to get in registration and plane tickets and getting a babysitter without knowing what an event looks like. So anybody listening today is going to get a really good idea of what this summit will be like, and hopefully it will encourage them to come.

Yeah, we kind of covered the two sides of what is hope. How do we develop hope in our lives and in our story and how will that theme be lived out at the summit? And so I think everyone, there's going to be something for everyone in this episode. And for those who know Bob and Heather, they're just great people. They're featured speakers on our Sexual Integrity 101 video series. They've been on the podcast several times. Robert or Bob Vandermeer is one of our clinicians here at Pure Desire, along with his wife, Rebecca. And Heather Kolb is our associate director of marketing communications and has been featured in a number of our resources. So I look forward to people hearing from them today. So here is part four of four in our Anchored in Hope series, a roundtable conversation with Robert Vandermeer and Heather Kolb. Heather Kolb and Robert Vandermeer, welcome back to the podcast. Good to see you guys.

Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Nice to be here again.

Yeah, I'm excited about this episode. It's a fun one because we are on the Pure Desire side, the speaking team at this year's summit. And we thought it would be great just to get us together in a room and talk a little bit about the theme and maybe share a little where we think we might be going with our talks, even though it's several months away yet, and hopefully to excite people about what we believe God will do at the summit and why this theme matters so much to us. So let's jump into that. The theme this year is anchored in hope, and we feel like it's a powerful and timely message. So how have you seen hope? Let's talk about recovery stories now. How have you seen hope act as an anchor in your own life during seasons of uncertainty?

Yeah, I mean, I feel like with this idea of hope, there can be a lot of baggage. And historically, even people would feel guilt if they didn't feel hope, right. That it was almost like a moral statement about them. Right. If they don't have hope, they must be doing something wrong. And I think personally, what I've experienced is that as I'm willing to just be realistic about wherever I am in life, relationships, recovery, emotions, all of that, that if I'm willing to sit with that and sort through it, then hope is this idea that there's something better than this. Right. And it's kind of like the opposite of despair, Right. That despair is like, this is not going anywhere. This does not end well. I die alone. And so I think personally, hope has been the byproduct of doing some hard work and being able to really, truly believe that there is something better than this. Right? There is something better than. Than either brokenness or pain or hurt or fear or bitterness or whatever that kind of yucky stuff is that we live in a lot of times. But it's the byproduct of hard work.

I think for me, it has more to do with just Recognizing that my ability to have hope is tethered to my ability to trust God and trust his plan for me. Because I know that when I start to doubt that God can do what I don't think he can do, then I start to feel hopeless. But when I remind myself that. That God is faithful and that he has seen me through these other times, I can trust that. Even though sometimes I say, okay, I can totally trust you, totally confess, give it all up, place it before the Lord, whatever my struggle is at the moment. And then two minutes later, I've taken it back, and I start to feel hopeless and doubt God and try and figure out, okay, what is this supposed to look like? On my own, I could do this, this, this and this. But I think that the most often when I can feel hopeful, it's when I go back to recognizing that God is so much bigger than I am. And he has, you know, he's capable of fixing anything. And I can trust that. And because I trust that my hope is anchored in Him.

Yeah. Yeah. I think hope is having a belief that this story can have a different ending than the one I'm currently seeing at the time of that. We're recording this. We're coming up on Eastern. It always makes me think of one of my favorite passages, which is the two men who are on the road to Emmaus, and Jesus, kind of incognito, appears to them. And it's really evident from their conversation that they're pretty hopeless. Like, they thought he was going to be the Savior, they thought. And now he's dead and his body's gone. And they're not saying his body's gone, like in Hope. They're like, what else can happen? Like, this is horrible. And they're downcast and they're dejected. And then obviously Jesus, when he reveals himself to them, they're rushing, rushing back to Jerusalem with hope, right? Because they realize this. This story is going to end differently than we thought. Something can happen. And I think when we're maybe stuck in a pattern of addiction or we have a spouse or loved one that is. And it's been a repeated pattern over time, that hopelessness can set in of just time and time again. This story has the same ending and the same ending. And can anything change? And when we're stuck in a place of hopelessness like that, it can be debilitating. We can lose the motive to even try any longer. But if there's a belief that says this story can have a different ending, and I think that's What Jesus is in the business of doing. And. And at the summit, what we want to help emphasize in people's story, whatever angle in the story they're coming in, that Jesus can meet us there and that the. The story could have a different ending than maybe what our past or our trauma or the voice of pain would say in our lives. And when there's hope, it's a game changer. You know, I think, too, about our recovery early on, for my wife, it was so key because she would say after 10 years of marriage and my repeated confessions of relapse, that she had lost hope. And it was just always more of the same. More of this time will be different, and here's why. And then it wouldn't be any different. But when we started, you know, groups and counseling, like, we were actually doing some things differently. I was being required to do some things differently with the tools I was using and the group I was going to. And I saw. I almost feel like I literally could see hope coming back to her of, like, this is different. This isn't just more of the same. Like, we're actually doing something different. And it gave her hope. And that was a game changer. Yeah.

There's also, like, as you're saying that these similar ideas of that there's something better and it's okay to say, I don't know how to get there. Right. Sometimes we will undercut our hope because we don't know how to get there.

It's impossible.

It's impossible. Like, given what I know, given the things I've tried, all the successes and failures, how can I have hope if I don't know how to get there?

Right.

I think to me, that speaks to the trust. Part of your saying is, of what you're saying, Heather, is that. That, okay, I believe it's possible. I don't know how it's going to work out. Right. I believe. Help my unbelief kind of statement. But it is possible, I think something.

Really practical for me. You know, we say at pure desire, trust the process. Trust the process. And what does that mean? And I was in the state that Heather kind of explained before. I found pure desire of, okay, God, I'm trusting you with all of this. And then I felt like I was, like, taking it back. I, like, visually felt like I was pulling my balloon back in, you know, and. And then felt like a crappy Christian, you know, because I couldn't get over the betrayal. But when I discovered the Betrayal and Beyond workbook and I started reading Diane's words. I was. I was like, she's saying what's in my head and heart that I couldn't articulate. So then it was like, this person gets it. So I'm therefore going to just keep following along because somebody is showing me that they've been there and done that. And so I'm. When I was getting overwhelmed, I would just say, just keep doing the book and let's see how it feels toward the end. And surely, like, step by step, hope kept coming. And so that was when I figured out what trust, the process meant by just seeing. And I think that's the benefit of Summit and all of you guys being speakers is that we have been there. We can literally say we know what it feels like to deal with all these different traumas and curveballs in life. And we. We promise there is a way out. Okay, so that I gave you guys my example of, you know, a way that I was able to kind of start pulling myself out of feeling overwhelmed. So what are some other practical ways people can hold on to hope when they start feeling overwhelmed or stuck?

I love the passage of Jesus traveling to Jerusalem through. Past that Samaritan village where there's the 10 lepers outside of it. And, you know, they say, lord, Lord, have mercy on us. And then Jesus goes over and interacts and he tells them to go and show themselves to the priests. And it says that as they went, they cleansed. And the word there that's translated as cleansed is this idea where we get the word cathartic from. And so it's almost this idea of as we are willing to take maybe some healthy risks, right? That there is actually a catharsis that happens in us as we are participating. And so I think that, like a practical step, one thing is that participation is required, right? Jesus didn't just say, you're healed. He said, go and show yourselves to the priests. And that for them culturally would have been going and showing themselves to the very person that declared them unclean, right? So, like, to go and present themselves to this person, the origin of their shame, right, in this leprosy, like the origin of socially being cast out of disconnected, of being alone, of all of that. It was them being willing to take a risk, to face that fear and face that pain. And I think that when we're stuck a lot of times and we're feeling despair, it's because we're trying to do it on our own. And because we're not willing to take those risks anymore, we're not willing to move towards our pain, towards those sources. And so we stay stuck. But there's this catharsis that happens if we're willing to take just a step or two.

Right.

We don't have to run a mile, but just take a step or two towards something.

I agree, Ashley, with what you were saying about how being with other people or having an example from somebody who's been there, I think that that is one of the most powerful things and why so much of the work that we do is in a group setting, because it really does allow you to hear from other people, learn from their experiences, but also recognize that. That they've been where I am now and. And they're not there anymore. And so they're going to help me to get from. Yeah. From here to there. Yeah.

Shared experience and competency. Right. I mean, that's what you found with Diane, is that she had competency and there was shared experience.

Right.

And that said, oh, there is a path out of this.

A couple of practical things that come to mind for me when we're feeling stuck or overwhelmed. I think it's an opportunity, kind of like you were saying in that first question, Bob, to examine the source of our hope, to look at what am I looking to for hope? And sometimes we find that we're putting it in places it shouldn't be in someone else. You know, our hope is in our spouse doing something differently or having a perfect marriage or our kids being obedient, or even things like the source of hope is in my favorite team winning a championship. And all of those are outside of our control and are really not worthy of where I should be putting my hope. If I find that that's really where I'm grounding my hope, maybe that's part of the reason I'm stuck. And finding how do I shift that hope into things that are reliable. The word of God and His truth and what he says about me and. And his love, that that's where we can anchor hope in a reliable way. But the other thing that comes to mind, one of the things that breeds hopelessness is when we're trying to do it all at once or we're trying to see the whole story and know every step along the way. And it's overwhelming. And I've. I've referenced often how Dr. Ted says in the Seven Pillars of Freedom workbook that God is not asking you right now in this moment, to be free forever, because that feels overwhelming. Like I've been stuck in this addiction and this trap, this binge purge for however Many years or decades. And to look at my whole life and never acting out again, we feel hopeless. But he brings it in that paragraph. He says, God is asking you today to walk in recovery and can you do today? And that hope of like, I don't know what this looks like tomorrow or a year from now or 10 years from now, but today I can trust God. I can reach out to a friend, I can have some healthy habits, I can get the help I need. And if I can make it to bed, I can do that. And that feels hopeful of what I can do. And so I think what you were saying, Bob, maybe I don't know how to do everything, but I can take some steps. And along the way, hope has a way of beginning to really build because that one day leads to another day and another day. So if we can kind of, I hate to say, limit our focus, but bring that focus to a place of, again, what we can control, what can I do today that can breed hope for the direction that we're headed in?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So as we think about this theme, why do you think that anchoring our hope is so essential in the recovery and healing process? Having that anchor and defining it, whether it's for individuals, couples, or even leaders, what. What encouragement would you give to someone as they think about the anchor of their hope in recovery?

You said something similar to what I was thinking with this question. And there's a line in the Genesis process book for Michael Died, that being stuck is waiting for someone else to change in order for you to be okay. We always have clients underneath the word someone. Also write the word something. And what you were addressing, Nick, is that if we're looking for our hope in these external things, we have zero control over that. And to be able to anchor our hope in what God is doing in our internal world, right, to know that, like, this is. This is something that we can participate with and that the Holy Spirit as a paraclete comes alongside of us as we participate in doing this work. But we can't control the external. Right. There might be negative consequences because of unhealthy things we've done, and those start to diminish as we get healthier. But at the end of the day, we can't stop all external things from happening that are negative. And so I think to anchor our hope into, whether it's as an individual or a couple. Right, whatever. But to anchor our hope in the fact that God is doing an internal work in us when we're willing to participate with that, and that Actually gives us a greater capacity to deal with these external things, right? It's that idea of homeostasis to maintain balance despite external influences. And so I think we can anchor our hope in that, right, that we can do work, that we can do work here, and that the work that we do here actually helps us to navigate all of this external stuff with better success.

I think there's a challenge with that because I completely agree with everything you just said. And yet I know that sometimes, especially for betrayed partners, when they come to see us, their first encounter with us, their system is completely flooded, that they, in that moment, they don't have the capacity to even think of anything that could be hopeful or even think of what that first step could be or. You know what I mean? And I think that that's why it's so important that we have other people who can kind of just be the guide for us in the moment, because I know that. I don't know, I've been there, too, where it's just like, I don't even know what comes next. And you feel like even in your brain, that your thoughts are just spinning in circle and not landing anywhere. And there's. And there's nothing. There's nothing that is, you know, redemptive or hopeful or anything. And so you. You know what I'm saying? It's a very lost, lost feeling. And so, again, having people that even just one person that you can contact, that you can reach out to, that can be that physical anchor of hope, you know what I mean? Just because we all know that our hope is in the Lord. And yet sometimes in the midst of something so devastating, we need a physical person. We need somebody to really show up as Christ in our life in a really powerful way to help us take that next step.

It's like what Adrian Hickman, you know, his story tells. I need somebody with skin on. You know, Jesus is wonderful, but sometimes you need somebody with skin on. And I remember I had a family member that was struggling with the idea or wrestling with the idea of not keeping their baby and because of the horrible situation they were in. And I. I remember just asking her, do you trust me? Like, she was like, you were describing Heather on shutdown mode. Like, I cannot even take a step forward. I can't think. Nothing. She was, like, frozen. And so nothing I was saying was getting through. And so then I just paused and was like, do you trust me? Do you trust that I love you so much and, you know, have your best interests? And then. And then she was like, yes. And, and so I was like, okay, then would you be willing to just listen to the advice I have for the next 30 days? You know, you know, I forget what I said, but just to say, like, refocus, I have your best interests at hand. You are like in full blown trauma. And it's like, okay, pack your apartment, move into my guest room. We will figure this out together. And, and today, you know, almost 10 years later, it's a completely different story. But I think having group members and leaders that know us and know our struggles, we have to let them in ahead of time or, you know, most of us find them in crisis, but to keep them in our lives because then when we crisis, they know us, they know our weaknesses, they know what we need, and they're able to just come alongside and say, okay, you know, all hands on deck. We need to be Jesus with skin on for you right now.

I think of hope as a perspective. And we know from brain science that we tend to find more of whatever we're looking for. And so if our perspective is looking for signs of hope or hopefulness, there are ways we find it. And I, I think of what we talk a lot about in groups, the power of gratitude, that it seems so simple but encouraging a group member that every night or every morning find five things from the, from the day that you're grateful for. And it might be very, very small things, you know, the hug of a child or that you found a good parking spot, or maybe it's even hope or think gratitude in spite of, like, lord, thank you that in spite of a horrible day, you love me, you're present. Thank you for that. Because what we've seen is the power that has to shape our way of thinking. And that rather than looking for all the bad stuff that happened, we're training our brain to look for the things we're grateful for. And I, I think the same thing can be said of that perspective of hope. That even if we're in the midst of a very dark situation, if we looked for small ways, we could probably see signs of hope. Places that brought encouragement, people that brought a word of, of boy, that's different than what I'm experiencing. But they're seeing it. Maybe I will too. I mean, just that little thought of maybe I can too. That's hope. And, and those are the moments that we might be in, tempted to overlook in the course of a really big story happening in our lives or something traumatic, or the betrayal of a spouse or being stuck in addiction or we've relapsed again and we can be stuck in seeing all of that. And yet those small moments, those little places of hope can be what becomes that building block that now we're training our brain to look for hope. And that perspective then leads us in a way of life and of freedom versus being just trapped by whatever we're experiencing at that time.

Yeah. Heather, you said something just with betrayed spouses. And thank you for bringing that perspective in. I think that, like, there's an idea that nobody's hope can ultimately be in their spouse's sobriety. Right. Or in their health.

Yeah.

And, and even for an addict, Right. They're trying to place their hope in their sobriety date or things like that. And that's just like, that's a very earth shattering, like, thought process. Right. For a spouse to be like, I can't place my hope in my spouse's sobriety. And it's very disorienting. Right. And it's heartbreaking. You have to grieve through that.

Yeah.

But it's such an important part of this journey, I think, to be able to place that to, you know, onto God, onto, onto Jesus, onto the Holy Spirit, onto your participation, onto the words of an encouragement from a friend, someone saying, I think I can do that too. Right. But, but that's just like, that's a really disorienting thing, I think, for a lot of people when it comes to even approaching the idea of hope. Where do I find that?

Then we have, you know, we've got so many tools and I just like, get in group, get in group, get in group. Because like you had said at one point, Nick, you know, when you say, I need to be better all at once, but if you say, you know, from Monday, this commitment to change on my faster scale, the next Monday, and then you see that you're able to make tiny little baby steps of progress even as whether you're a betrayed spouse or the struggling spouse, it's. It's just so good. But it's a long, it's, it's a long game that we're playing. Okay, so as we look ahead to the upcoming Pure Desire Summit, what excites you most about the theme and the direction that we're taking this year? Bob.

No, I was going to wait for Heather because she's been looking at me like, I have to go first every time.

You don't have to go first. I'm number seven. I'll go first.

All right, Perfect. All right. One, two, three. I think one thing is what, what sets it apart? What was the question? What am I looking for excites you? What excites me? What excites me is a gathering of like minded people that are actively pursuing health and are integrating tools and skills in a safe community. Right. Or they're learning for it to. Learning, learning to trust in that community again. Right. So it's not just a feel good kind of gathering, mountaintop experience. Everybody go home, you know, and feel better about themselves. Like it's a real immersive experience into all sorts of different skills and tools and modalities and life experiences that I think has just been really unique, you know, to this type of thing. And yeah, I'm excited about that. I'm just excited to, to see people that I only see at summit. Right. People that I've have years of relationship with at this point, whether it's in a clinical setting or in a group setting or just from the summits. But just to get to see these people, right. And to know that like we're all on the same journey together, trying to pursue health together, that's what excites me. Yeah.

I think the summit in and of itself is a hope filled event because you gather and we're saying it all the time on the podcast now, but you realize like, I'm not alone. And sometimes when we're in our own group or we're in counseling or we're on this journey with our spouse, it can feel a little isolated because in general we attend churches that this is not often talked about. It's not a big, large community thing. It's typically happening in very small places or one on one relationships. And those can be powerful. But also sometimes we look around. I mean, I remember this early in my experience of looking around at like conferences I'd go to or even the church that I was leading be like, does anybody else relate to this? Like, is this happening in other people's lives or is this just something we're walking in our story? And then you come to the summit and like the, the sense of like, oh, we've all been there and some people are in year one and other people are in year 15, 20 and beyond. Like, yet there's such connection around the journey and recovery and hope that you just have the sense of like, oh, we're a part of something. Yeah. And that brings hope and I think it brings energy into our own story because we're motivated to keep passing it on, to keep seeing God do more of that back in the community that we're A part of where maybe it's not happening nearly to that degree. So I, yeah, I just think of the summit itself as a very hope filled event and that excites me.

I am excited that we actually picked a theme that was applicable to both the person who struggles and the betrayed partner. Because it's harder than you would think because we run it through all these different. We do these brainstorming sessions and just run, okay, what about this? What about this? And, and we have people in the room who struggle and those who've been betrayed. And how is this going to land with a betrayed partner? How is this going to land with somebody who struggles? And so I think that that is, is really exciting. And I also think that because this theme is kind of broad, we're able to talk about a lot of different aspects of the healing journey and that all are hopeful and that all are all the things that we need to be anchored in hope.

Well, the summit is fun and it brings together a lot of various individuals with differing backgrounds and stories and experiences. So how do you envision the event fostering connection or maybe how have you seen at other summits, how have you seen it create connection and growth for those who attend?

I don't think there's a feeling of like an us and them, right. That sometimes we walk into a church scenario with like, it's us in the church and it's them out there, or it's us on this political side or us, you know, And I don't have that feeling ever at our summits or at our events. There's not this feeling of us, of us versus them. It's just this feeling of us, all of us, all of us, right. That in general, people are not putting up a facade, they're not wearing masks. They've all done some work that precipitated them arriving at the summit, right. That required honesty, that required vulnerability. I feel like when I get hugs from people at the summit that they're genuine hugs, right? That it's not, it's not like that maybe Sunday morning hug where it's like, oh, hey, you know, good to see you too. Blessed to be depressed, brother. Right? It's like it's not that kind of thing. It's like it's a genuine.

That was actually our runner up theme too.

Blessed to be depressed.

So close to that.

Oh man, you'd already had the bracelets made up and everything, huh? But yeah, I, I love that, that it's, there's, you know, we already use this idea of shared experience but it's. It's a. It's. We've humanized each other. We've allowed ourselves to be humanized, and we walk into a room where we're just pursuing Jesus and pursuing health as humans, you know, side by side. It's just really refreshing.

I love the opportunity for the people in our Pure Desire community. However, you would say that. That they. That they. We all get to be together, that they get to be with staff and with people that they know. And it's something that I've had to get kind of used to a little bit. But when people come up and they just walk right up to you and hug you, you know, this person you've never met before, and they just say all these things and they love you, and you probably don't know me, but I watch you every. I know. And I listen to the pod and. And so it is one of those amazing things. And the way that. Because people feel like they know us and we're safe, that they will come up and share their story and the way that listening to the podcast has impacted their life. And it just is, I think, a really open, honest, safe community. And. And you feel it just being there. It's. It's. I don't know. I can't describe it any differently, and it's really something quite rare.

Yeah. I really love the stories that I've heard and that I see happening in the room when someone who's only met their counselor over a computer monitor sees them in person and has lunch with them, like, that was so encouraging. Or online group members that have all been on a screen for eight or nine months, and now they make a plan like, we're going to meet there, and they come a day early or stay a day long. It becomes this kind of moment of, we've been on this journey together, but now we're getting to be with one another in the same room. Or I think of the church groups or groups of leaders that come together from a church and get to experience the talks and the sessions and the van ride back and forth from the event becomes very formative for what God does in their church or their circles, or even just the couples that have said to me, you know, he's done his group, I've done my group, and we've both been experiencing some great relationships and growth, but there hasn't been much for us to do together. And admittedly, sometimes that is recovery. I mean, you might do counseling together if you're with PD and counseling, but. But a lot of recovery. Is like the struggler has to go on their journey and it's unique. And the betrayed spouse has their journey and it's unique. And there aren't always, especially early on, a lot of built in connection points. But for many couples, the summit's become that. It's like this was the first thing they'll say to me that we've got to do together and to sit in the room together and know where we're at now compared to where we were a year ago or a few years ago. And to kind of hear those stories and hear them together like it's, it. It's so meaningful to them. And so those are, those are the moments I've gotten to watch happen and hear from people and yeah, definitely had that same experience. I feel like I know you, except for one person that said I, but I thought you were Trevor. You know, our co host that we've been on the podcast for a long time said I had your face on him and his on you. And mentally, I'm not really sure how that worked, but they thought I looked very different. I. That was an app. But I love, honestly when people come and they'll ask about my kids or a story that I've shared, like, how did that work out? And what it says to me is this community can be so meaningful for us. And I think the summit becomes a place where some of that meaning goes to another level. Because there's just something that happens when you're in the room, when you're with people. And I know not everybody can make it in the room, but I do hope at some point that's on your radar if you're listening, if you're a fan of what pure desire does that at some point you say, I'd like to be in the room. Because there's something, I think that happens among us that's hard to put into words. But I've watched it and I've gotten to hear about it so much that I know it happens and I'm confident that it will happen again.

Somebody told me, I thought you were a short redheaded lady. I was like, oh, I'm actually very tall and not redheaded at all. I was like, what kind of voice do I have trying to hear it through that perspective. Yeah, I, I love being in person at the summit. It's just I, I struggle to even talk to my kids and husband for the whole week I'm gone because I'm so just in the moment with the summit and a couple of moments that I loved from this last summit was I did a session on, like, safety and sanity. And so gaslighting and boundaries. And I think something you alluded to it, Nick, that's unique about our speakers and what we do is that we, a lot of us have the betrayal side and the struggle side, and we work with both, or we're married to one and we are one. I mean, we just. We know the world of both, and we have a heart for both, but we also have. We know there's better out there, and so we're not afraid to call people up to better and higher. And so being able to do a session on gaslighting and say strugglers, like, speak directly to them, but have it not feel shaming because we've been there, we get it was really good for me. And I had a couple say they went out to dinner and the husband just owned his gaslighting behaviors. And they said it was so good for them to sit together and hear the same message. And he's like. And weirdly, I didn't feel shamed. I felt, like, empowered and encouraged to just be honest and own these behaviors that I've been doing. And then the second thing was I had a black woman who was watching online reach out and just. I'm going to cry. She's like, I feel so encouraged to see a black woman on stage and just living in her identity and seeing you do something good and strong and healthy and like, representing in a positive way for black women. And so we've actually been friends. We've kept a friendship, and we marco back and forth. But, like, that was what drew her to just seeing my session. I was like, I want that. I want to be a bridge for all people and just comfortable that if you come from a black church or a white church, because it's. It is very different. And sometimes black people come to white churches to get different resources. And I. I just think it's cool that people come to us and feel safe, like, regardless of their background.

Yeah, that's great.

Bob, you've been part of many events like this. So what do you think sets the Pure Desire Summit apart from other conferences or gatherings?

Yeah, Heather, did you want to go first on this one? No. I think that in general, that everyone that shows up, whether they're online or in person, that they're not there to be spectators, right? They, like, they're not there just to observe. They're not spectating this thing unfolding or just there to learn data or something. They're there to be a Participant. I know I've used that word a few times today, but there's just this participation that is so different than, I think, similar events that I've spoken at or attended where, you know, someone's like, oh, yeah, I don't. I don't really have any issue with this, or I don't, you know, know anybody, but I just thought I'd come. I mean, and that's great if that's why you're attending, to learn and to be a resource to the world around you. But then you become a participant.

Yeah.

Right. Then, like, by nature, you're. You're stepping into this participatory role. And so, you know, in those terms, it's like I'm, you know, I'm not only the founder of Hair Club for Men, I'm also a member, which I'm not just to note, but. But I think that there's. There's this part of it then where. Where you understand that the people that are in the room are actually there because they want to see change. Right. They. They want to. To not just be. Experience change in themselves, but then also be an agent of change, whether it's in their marriage or their. Their own family system or their family of origin or their church or their town or their business. Right. It's like there's a natural outflow of this where it's not just for them, but as they work through this, it becomes this outpour. Right. Where they are. Where they are now an agent in the world around them, which I think is just really unique to the people in the room.

It's not just information transfer. It's part of the journey.

Yeah. It's not a scantron test. Right. Like, it's so much more than that.

Yeah.

One of the things I always feel at the summit as I look around the room is the thought of, they get me. They understand my story. And even though all of our stories are different, there's a part of it that we hold in common. And we come from different political backgrounds, we come from different geographical backgrounds and geological, but more geographical. We have different theologies. I'm sure all those things. But in that moment, what matters is some of the things that we have held in common of. Of understanding the. The nature of the brain in recovery and the role that trauma plays and the messages of shame from our past. And what does it look like to overcome those. And that it's not just trying harder, but that it's taking some really practical steps on multiple layers and believing that that can be and is deeply biblical, even as we integrate some of that brain science. And. And in a lot of circles where we go, we can feel like the outlier, like we're needing to explain to people this journey that we're on or why it makes sense to us when they haven't experienced it. But in that room at the summit, everyone is like. And not to the same degree, obviously, because we're all in different places. But it's like they get me and they know this part of my story that's deeply personal to me because it's also deeply personal to them. And it somehow just. It draws us together in ways that I've. I've not experienced at other conferences. And I've been to conferences for pastors where everyone in the room was a pastor, so we had that in common. And for men, and everyone in the room was a man, so we had that just because we had something in common. It's not the same at this level where there's something so deeply personal that we're sharing together. So I think that sets it apart. And one other thing that came to mind for me, I think it's natural. At so many conferences, there's kind of a barometer of, like, who's further ahead than who or like, whose church is bigger than whose or who has more influence. At the Pure Desire conference, whether someone's like, in month one or, you know, year 20, I think there's this deep sense that if you're early on or at the beginning point, everyone else in the room is for you. They're not comparing of like, well, why are you so, you know, new? Or how come you're getting started? No, it's this sense of, we've been on a journey and we remember what it's like to be at the beginning. And if you came because we've had some couples come, they just hear about Pure Desire. They're in the middle of discovery. Like, we're going to the conference, and it's raw and it's real. And when they meet people, there's maybe a lot of emotional stuff they're walking through, But I just watch as people love on them. Like, man, we are so proud of you for being here. And. And I don't find that feeling other places. I feel a lot more of, like, ranking of who's who in the room and who's more successful. And it's just. That's not the spirit of this conference. And so if you're listening, you've been to conferences where you feel that. Of, like, well, I'm gonna. I'm the youngest in the room or the newest or we're just starting. Like, everyone in the room is for you, if that's where you're at. And I think that's a pretty cool environment to be a part of.

Yeah. Like, you won't be hazed. Right. If you're new, no initiation rituals, none of that. Just hugs and thank you for being here.

Even if you have three cups of coffee.

Even if you have three cups of coffee.

Or four.

Yeah. So since it's still officially my question, maybe I have one other thought that I think that one of the things that's cool about the Pure Desire Summit also is that Pure Desire as an organization doesn't try to bottleneck anything. In other words, like, we're not trying to be a one stop shop for everyone, for everything. We're also there to be a resource to people and that like, we. We stay in our lane and we do what we do well. But if there are things that we would refer people out for, then we like, we're part of that referral process. And so even at this summit, I think that's reflected with the speakers that come and right. The, like, the people that are actually coming in on stage, like, they're not all Pure Desire employees. They have other organizations. Right. That they're a part of and that they started. And like, I've referred several of my clients at different points to some of these different organizations. Right. To go see Dr. Jake Porter, to say, hey, there's something that I think that this organization might be able to fill this gap a little bit better than we can do, either because it's a virtual setting or because of the dynamic of the relationship. Right.

They're calling. Yeah.

And so I think that's one of the things that's also really unique. Like we're not telling people to come to this because we can solve everything, but we want to be facilitators in this process as opposed to bottleneck it.

Yeah, that's really good. We are not a cult. No.

Also duly noted.

We want to be a healthy, healing part of your journ. But I think we recognize that everyone's journey is bigger than any one ministry could ever encompass. And just celebrating that together is a part of it for sure. So, Heather and Bob, I know you want to jump in, but this is Heather's question. Heather, you have been deeply involved as part of the planning committee for the summit. So tell us a little bit about just what you believe people will walk away from that they will walk away with as they leave the summit, both personally and professionally.

So this is something that we spend probably 11 months planning. And even after the summit is over at the end of September, our first planning meeting is by late October. And so we just jump right back in. One of the first things that we do is to look through all the evaluations, which are so important because we use that in deciding when somebody says, you know, there wasn't enough for a betrayed partner, there wasn't enough here for couples, there wasn't enough here for singles, There wasn't enough, you know, those kind of things. We take all of that really seriously. And so I think one of the things that I always find encouraging is the way that we can take that feedback and say, okay, so then this year it's important that we have sessions on this and this and this and this, because we really do want to. I mean, it is so much of the heartbeat of what we do. But we also recognize that we want to serve the community well and we want to serve those who attend. And so it's important that we, you know, try and come up with sessions and session ideas that will be encouraging and supportive and meet the needs of participants of who's going to be there. I mean, we can't be everything for everyone, but we really do take a lot of time and work and effort to make sure that we're meeting the needs the best we can.

Yeah.

Okay. Bob, you're not on the planning committee, but what do you think people will walk away with?

I agree with everything that Heather said. Yeah. I think that they'll walk away encouraged, refreshed. But some people will walk away with the knowledge that they have a lot of work ahead of them. Right. It's not refreshing for everyone. Some people, it's a reminder of the work that lies ahead of them. But they're not left to go about that work on their own. Right. Like, they're. It's a. I don't know, stick with the anchored theme. Like, it's an all hands on deck kind of thing. Right. Where, like, they may have a lot of work ahead of them, but they don't have to try to figure that out on their own. That they can leave with a path, with a plan, and hopefully with a little bit of momentum and trajectory as they leave that weekend.

Yeah, Yeah. I think it's clarifying. So many people, as they're leaving summit, have talked to me about the clarity they have on a step they need to take, something they need to engage in with their Spouse feeling led to start a group in their church or have a hard conversation. And you're right, Bob. Sometimes there are difficult things. That's not, you know, fun and sunshine, but it's like, this is the right thing for me. And it wasn't until I heard that or talked to that person that God just clarified what's next for me. And I just see that so often. So I wanted to mention that. Okay, Ashley, you are on the planning committee. What do you think people will take away from this summit?

You said that it's not all sunshine and roses. I don't know. That's not what you said. But something like that. And you also said all hands on deck. And it makes me think for some, it is the necessary pain. Like that discovery phase can be so long. It can be decades and years of not really admitting what you're struggling with, or the betrayed spouse not knowing what's going on. And then they hit that shock of realizing what's happening. And for some people, that happens at the summit. And we have, you know, the prayer team, we have counselors, and I've just seen really cool things happen where a disclosure happens or the one guy who just, like, randomly picked this conference and came down and then realized it was exactly what he needed. And so for some, it. It might be part of their rock bottom if a. If a spouse hears discovery at our conference or, you know, they recognize how big the struggle is or whatever it is. But we're. We're here for that. And. And that can end up being a good thing. You know, to get to the point where the pain is so great, you're willing to then change. But we don't just ship people out the door. You know, we want them to find us at the conference and tell us, this is devastating, this just happened, so that we can follow up and make sure that they're being cared for after they leave.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because there have been experiences that just reminded me that where two years ago, somebody sat in my session and even came up after my session and said, when you said this or called this abuse or when you said this, that really bothered me. And I don't know what to do with that. And then they came back last year and said, thank you so much, because I needed to hear that word. I needed to hear. I needed to own that this is really what was going on in my marriage, but I wasn't ready to hear it. And so I think it really is amazing opportunity where God in his graciousness, will give us that prompting to Go to the summit to either go in person or go online and be part of this experience. Because he does want to do something in us and through us and bring us to that next step, even if it's a super hard step.

Okay, well, to wrap it up, for those who might be unsure about attending, what would you say to encourage them, to help them take that step, to join us this year?

There's not a person on the planet that would not benefit from attending this.

I agree.

Right. Like, there are some ubiquitous phrases that, like, we, we apply from the Bible. Like being born again, like being transformed by the renewing of your mind. Right? Like, like picking up your cross and following Jesus. Like, these ideas apply to every single person on the planet. In other words, like, we've all. We all have a backstory that, that needs some attention. And if we're not able or willing to give that backstory some attention, we're not going to be able to be present now. We're not going to be the husband, father, friend, pastor, you know, all of the thing. We're not going to be able to be the person that we really desire to be. And so I think that if you're on the fence about attending because you're like, well, like, I'm divorced, great, come, please. Or I'm remarried or I'm divorced again, it doesn't matter. Like, there's not a person, again, that wouldn't benefit from. From the approach that, that we're taking, from the care that's just in the room, right. From the recognition and validation of whatever your experiences have been and are. With also some forward thinking to say, what are some next steps? Like to move out of this place and to be able to. Even if you don't have hope now, right, you're not. You're not going to be shamed because you don't walk in the door with hope. Right. Like, you're going to get there and we're going to just meet you where you are. And even if there's just a little tiny glimmer of hope during that weekend, I think that it's well worth it whether you attend virtually or in person.

Yeah, I know many of you listen to this podcast because this is your safe first step. And you can start to explore what to do with the betrayal, because no one knows you're listening to this podcast or you're trying to figure out if you're addicted or what's going on at the struggle. But you don't really know how to talk to people. And a podcast has been a safe place for you. And I'm so glad that you're here and that you listen and that you've listened this far, because the summit is probably like, a crazy idea. But I want you to know the summit is a safe place for you. And even though we've told a lot of stories about how people connect over their story, we don't out you at the summit. You know, we're not, like, digging for information. It is totally fine for you to come. And people say, oh, why are you here? You could just say, I'm a fan of what pure desire does. And maybe you've never processed your story with anyone out loud. I think the summit would be so powerful for you because of the things we've said, to look around a room of people that are walking a road of recovery and are excited are seeing God at work in their lives. So many who have seen redeemed marriages or relationships, and that might be for you, what you need to take that step more deeply into recovery. Because as long as you are doing recovery alone, your results will be limited. And I know it can be really difficult to know how do I take that step into, like, admitting I have a problem and looking for a group? Because that's very different than privately listening to a podcast. And I get that's a big step, and there's a lot of fear and anxiety around it. And so, again, an event seems like, why would I ever do that? But events have a neutrality to them. It's like, oh, I'm just a fan of what pure desire does. And that's what we say the summit is for anyone who's a fan of pure desire. And if this podcast so far has been your first step, I want to challenge you to think that maybe the summit is your second one. Because you're going to hear some things there and you're going to see some people there that are living this story and are doing it in an authentic way. And that might be the very thing you need to say. You know what? I'm diving in. I'm going to go for it. I've been tiptoeing around, but it's time for me to really face this. And I think the summit could be that turning point for you. And if you're not ready to come in person, we stream it all live online. And that could be a great step, too. And so. So I hope the summit might be your next step to really dive into your healing journey.

Yeah, I was trying. I mean, I was trying to think of something different. I think that you guys, guys captured it all. It's just a really like, you can't explain it. It's just, it's life changing. And like you said, Bob, we all have something. We all have hurts, we all have pain, we all have hurt people. And to just lean into that and be able to go open handedly and walk away and see what God's calling you to work on next is, I think, brave. And it will radically change your life. You don't know what you don't know. And I think we can all promise you that when you lean into doing this kind of work, you'll change for the better.

Yeah. I think you hear from all four of us. It's great. We believe in it. Bob and Heather, I am so looking forward to your sessions and just the unique experiences that you bring. And I know you're probably in the very midst of kind of formulating where you're headed and it's going to be a great event. So. So thank you for joining us today for the podcast and to talk about this theme of being anchored in hope. Because for every one of us, whether we attend the summit or not, hope is a central part of recovery. And I think today everyone can walk away with some ideas of what hope might look like in their story and steps they can take more deeply into holding on to hope no matter what circumstance they might be in. So, Bob, Heather, thank you so much. We love you guys and look forward to hearing from you at the summit.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, nice to be here and to.

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