417 - Breaking Through Denial

Foreign. Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from trauma and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is episode 417, and joining me as my co host for most of this series is Mr. John Begum. And John, welcome back to the podcast.

Thanks so much. We've got a. We've got a great series on offer and I'm excited to see what happens.

Yeah, I am excited. We are starting a brand new series today. This is part one of six in a series that we are calling the Foundations of Freedom. And it may be that we have people tuning in, listening to this episode for the very first time, because maybe a friend or a group member, a coworker, a spouse said you need to listen to the Pure Desire podcast. And this is the series about how to find healing, how to find freedom. What would you say to someone who's listening for the first time about why we all need support in walking this healing road?

Yeah. Well, first, just to say welcome, like, welcome to the PD family. Welcome to this, this conversation. I love so much, Nick, that we get to break silence around this conversation here at Pure Desire when it comes to sexuality. And for anybody engaging the first time, the first things I'd want them to hear is simply, you're not alone. Right? We end our podcast with that phrase, which I think is really powerful. And I number two, that they're worthy of love and their story matters. And to that point, Nick, I think it's so critical to have others enter our house. Just think about your life as a house. We get really accustomed to what our bedroom smells like and the kitchen smells like to the point where we become nose blind. We lose like sight or smell of what is quite literally happening around us. And it's an inviting other people into that house where they're like, wait, like, what's happening in the fridge? And have you taken out the trash? And why isn't this vacuumed? And why is the chair there instead of there? And they begin to ask really just curious, compassionate questions regarding our stories, which is where so much pain or woundedness really entraps us that we need other people who aren't nose blind to our story to enter in with us, to bear witness to what we've experienced, that we might find attraction or a path moving forward. We cannot do it alone. And that's one of the greatest lies, that we're alone and that somehow we can white knuckle ourselves out of this behavior alone. It's just not true.

Yeah. You're going to hear a lot in this series about the value of community, the value of being in a group. In the 1980s and 1990s, Dr. Patrick Carnes, who is kind of the forerunner of understanding sexual addiction in our culture, he developed something called the 30 task model of recovery. And these six sessions, these six episodes really are six of the first tasks that Patrick Carnes came up with, that that then Dr. Ted Roberts put on a biblical foundation and called the Seven Pillars of Freedom workbook. That's for men, but it's true for women, too. Whether you're a woman struggling or a man struggling, these are some of the initial steps you need to take and why we've called it the Foundations of freedom. And the first foundation that you're going to need is to break through denial. And so today we had our co worker, Ashley Jamison on with us. We did kind of a roundtable discussion about the power of breaking through denial. And I think you're going to get a ton out of it. So if you're new to the podcast, welcome. We're glad to have you here. If you're a seasoned veteran, a frequent listener, I think you're going to get a ton of reminders today about why honesty and truth are non negotiables when it comes to walking in freedom. And so here now is our conversation with John Beguman and Ashley Jamison and myself, part one of six on the Foundations of Freedom series on breaking through denial. Ashley, welcome back to the podcast. Great to have you in for this roundtable discussion today.

I'm always glad to be here. I love the roundtable discussion, so it would be fun today.

Yes. As we discussed in the intro, we are kicking off a brand new series on the foundations of freedom. So welcome to everyone who's maybe checking out the Pure Desire podcast for the first time. And we're excited to kick this off with you. Ashley, could you start out by explaining why breaking free from denial is such a crucial first step in the healing process?

Oh, my goodness. Okay. So one, you can't deal with things that you're not recognizing need to be dealt with. And one example I have to give, even on the betrayal side, when we've been wounded or have experienced harm, I was leading a betrayal and beyond group and teaching them how to use one of our tools. And in this exercise, I said, just highlight everything you're feeling and experiencing, and you can just sense that people were feeling overwhelmed in the room. And I Was able to say, it's brave that you're here, but highlighting is not what's making it true or not. You're highlighting what is already happening in your marriage and in your life. Highlighting it is just bringing awareness to it so we can name it and start putting action steps in to change it. And. And I think that is what breaking denial does. It helps us see the things that are causing harm. It helps us see the things that are put name to things that are separating us from others or from God. And if you're in a marriage, it is owning things that for sure, your spouse or your kids have probably felt, seen, and experienced harm from. And so it's a crucial first step. You can't deal with what you don't own and recognize.

So good. It makes me think of just the pain cave that is described in the Pillars of the Cloud that was running after Jerry Sitzer in his dream, and just how he was continually trying to outrun it, and it would always catch him, and he couldn't. He could never catch the sun setting. And, you know, the invitation from his sister is to turn and to face the darkness and to run through it, trusting that Jesus will enter in with us and that as he runs through, he could catch the sun rising on the other side. Which sounds incredible until you realize, to your point, actually, that you have to break denial and you have to get honest and you have to identify pain. That's a really hard journey.

Yeah, we have to have those kind of exposing moments of reality. Because the truth is, when we've been living in any kind of addictive behavior, compulsive behavior, and we've been stuck in it for a while, there is some level of blindness, denials what our brain does. It's human nature to try to make us feel okay about life, to get through the day. And I think about, like, various commercials or stories where we go nose blind because it's what we're used to smelling. And it's maybe the smell of our room or our house. Like, yeah, it's normal. And someone else walks in, like, what is that smell? And because to them, it's new and out of the ordinary, they point something out that maybe needs to be dealt with. And I, you know, I know that was my experience initially with Pure Desire. Fifteen years ago, one of the tools that we still have people use is called the sexual addiction screening test. And I took the SAST, and Dr. Ted Roberts, you know, says, well, Nick, you're a sex addict. I'm like, no, I'm Not. He's like, well, you scored 16 out of 20 on the core scale items. And, you know, if you're over 6, it's likely an indicator that you're in addiction. And I was like, well, I don't think that's fair. Like, I don't like that. And.

And.

And kind of his point was, you don't have to like it for it to be true. This is your reality, and you're not going to get better unless you're willing to accept your reality.

Yeah.

And that's what breaking denial is all about.

Yeah. And, I mean, I know this. This is probably a good lead into the next question, but it's not the next question for me on my struggler side, because I was the female struggler, and I also experienced betrayal on both sides of that coin. I was in denial, but it wasn't on purpose, you know, and for the betrayal side, it was a protective mechanism. And on the struggler side, I genuinely believed I gave that to God. I don't have any. You know, sometimes we need to be part of group or have objective tools put in front of us or have pain put in front of us that we've caused somebody to help us realize that what we're doing is not healthy. That was definitely my experience. I would have loved to been honest and own my behaviors, but I didn't know that I had behaviors to own until, you know, things blew up.

I just remember my own story when I applied to become a missionary with Campus Crusade for Christ or Cruise. And the interviewer simply said, hey, John, we can't hire you because you're a porn addict. And he said it much more compassionate and soft than that, but that's what I heard. And I'm like, what? Like, I'm the guy leading purity groups, and in purity groups, like, I'm the porn guy on my campus. He's like, no, no, no, you're the porn addict. And I didn't have language for the word addiction. He then said, you needed counseling. I'm like, counseling? Counseling's for broken people. All of my boxes were being shattered, and I was being forced to address the denial that I had been living in. And like, we're talking about. And the question number two asks about protective. How this can be a protective pattern for us. Like, denial keeps us safe. Nick, I want you to highlight, because I love when you do this in your story, what the three questions that your counselor or spiritual director asked you that really helped you kick denial. What were the three questions that brought you out of Denial.

Yeah. The first thing you know, because I said the same thing to a mentor. It's like, I don't have a problem. I don't think it's that big of a deal. I just need a little help. And he's like, okay, you know, three questions. Number one, how long has this been a problem in your life? And at that point, It'd been over 15 years since, you know, mid teenage years. At the time I was early 30s. He said, okay. Second question. How many times have you tried to stop? And I kind of laughed. I was like, well, every time was the last time. So I've tried to stop like hundreds of times. And he said, okay. Third question. Is it causing you or people you love significant amounts of pain? And at that point in our marriage, my wife was so fried by this, she was ready to be done. She was talking about separation. And I said, yeah, I think if I don't quit, my wife will leave me. And he said, okay, let's put the three questions together. It's been a problem for a long time. You've tried to change repeatedly without success, even though it's causing you and people you love significant pain. And I was like, well, that is a pretty good summary of my life right there. Yes. And that's when he said the words that I think were life changing for me. He said, nick, that is a clinical definition of addiction.

Wow.

And I know you don't think of it that way. I know it doesn't feel that way. But clinically, that's how we define addiction. It's been a problem for a long time. You've tried to change without success, and it's causing you a lot of pain. He said, it means there's something going on here that's deeper than you've realized and you've got to be willing to face it. And that was. Yeah, that was life changing.

Yeah. And that was your first step into the pure desire where he's like, you need the TED program. And you're like, I don't want the TED program. He's like, you need the TED program.

Yeah, exactly.

And okay. So Jennifer, I never know if it's frayed or freed. It's F R E Y D. She's the founder of Betrayal Trauma Theory, and she coined a phrase, betrayal blindness. And I have experienced this. I'm sure lots of us have. When we. When everybody else around us possibly could see the behaviors of somebody we're in close relationship to. It doesn't always have to be a spouse. It could be a Coworker or a friend or family member. And sometimes people are like, why do you let them treat you that way? Or, why do you stay so long? And it's a protective. It's a protective way for us to preserve our attachments or. Or avoid pain or danger. And so for me, there's been times where maybe I sense something or I knew something. I'm like, I can't emotionally, like, let's say the season when my brother was dying. I can't address this right now. I don't have the emotional tank full of energy to be able to go into this conversation with this other person. So I'm going to not deal with that, not see it. You know, it's clearer to see when you look back or when I had twin babies and the thought of pulling those attachments apart and being a single parent, I would minimize or make excuses. And so that is something that can happen, too, that we can become betrayal blind. And then at some point, something comes in front of us to make us recognize it, to have to deal with it.

So good, Ashley. And to your point, right, like, that betrayal blindness can be that protective sense to keep us from pain, but unfortunately is also limiting and hindering our freedom. I was just talking to a young adult gal in the church who had experienced a really painful relationship. And, you know, just some of the questions of, like, like, what made you stay? Or, like, why did you stay? And there was manipulation and emotional abuse. There was a lot of reasons in which she had stayed in this relationship. But something she said at the end was just so riveting. She said, I believed that was all I was worth. And I'm like, whoa. Like, that, right? There is a core belief, right, of, like, a level of unworthiness for a good or a healthy relationship. And so to your point, Ashley, sometimes that betrayal blindness can protect us from maybe some of those deeper things that we believe about God, ourselves, and others that would be really painful or hard to address if we were to get honest. But honesty, to your point, Nick, in your own story, like, is such a critical pathway forward to break denial, even if it's hard and sometimes it's excruciatingly painful.

Yeah.

Yeah, That's a really good example. I remember feeling that way because when I married my John, my twins were 5, and there were things I picked up on. And because I had terrible examples of relationships before John, I. I would tell myself, well, you know, he's taken me and my kids in, and this is, you know, I should just be thankful that he's killing himself to take care of us and letting me be a stay at home mom and, and all those things and, and to the person that's there and fearful of saying things, doing things, breaking free of denial, addressing addiction or betrayal. We at this table can promise you that when you do that, there's a level of freedom and joy and, and purpose in, in what God created you to do. Even if your life doesn't end up looking the way that you, you hoped it would look, or the way that maybe your church says it should look, that there's just joy in being who you are and living authentically.

Nick, denial can be a protective mechanism. We all know that. What are some of the ways people unknowingly stay in denial and how does that actually hinder their level of freedom?

Yeah, I think there are a couple of ways that denial can be sneaky because we can get focused in recovery on the big thing like, well, I've got to get out the secret of whatever it is my porn use that affair, that compulsive behavior that, that big nasty secret. Like, okay, and if we've, if that's been discovered in our life, it's come out. We might feel like, okay, I'm out of denial. But I think where a lot of people can get stuck is in the small behaviors that they still are practicing. Some level of lying, covering up, ignoring. And it might be the frequency with which they were going to that behavior. It could be the small ways that they've been accessing content or even things like patterns of hiding money. You know, something as simple as the spouse saying, like, you know, did you go out for lunch today and how much did you spend? We're like, no, I only spent $3, you know, and really our lunch was 15. But there's this little level of shame or guilt or like if they knew how much I spent, they might be angry. And we've just gotten into this pattern where we protect ourselves from the truth. I've seen it in ways like how much time we spend if our spouse says, well, what time we be home? And we know we have a meeting that might likely go to 5:30. And we feel bad about it, but we're trying to make them feel good. Like it should be a little bit after five, you know, and really we know it's, there's no way we're going to get home till 5:45. But we're trying to make them feel better. Those are just little examples where we can still be stuck in this pattern of trying to Kind of manage our life and micromanage it through little secrets that we might feel like, well, they're not really hurting anyone, but it's protecting this pattern where we're in denial about the truth, that we're living in the other place that I see it a lot, particularly in group, for men who are trying to come out of addiction, we do a lesson called points of powerlessness and talk about what are the points at which we become powerless to stop our behavior or going back down that route. And there is a part of us that doesn't want to admit we're ever powerless. And we're in denial about it because it feels maybe humbling or even embarrassing. And yet there's this truth of every single one of us. Not because we're bad or anything else, but because we're human and our brains have been designed for pleasure, that there are points at which if we go to their. To that place, to. To that part of our pattern, we become powerless to stop what's coming next.

Yeah.

And it's actually acknowledging that that becomes a freeing place of recovery. Because now we know, like, there are places I have to avoid ever getting there, because once I'm there, absolutely, it's a part of my old pattern. And actually, what seems scary at first is actually a really incredibly freeing part of the process to be willing to say, there are points of powerlessness in my life, and I need to own that rather than deny it.

So, good, Nick. Just to make this really practical for me, a point of powerlessness was Snapchat. I literally came to a point in my recovery journey where these messages that would quickly disappear had so aided my addiction and my ability to lie and to cover things up that I literally, in recovery, I'm like, I can't access Snapchat alone. Like, if I'm going to get on it, I'm going to have to be in the room with somebody else. And eventually the thing that was holding me was all these memories that were saved. And I literally got in a room with somebody for, like, four hours, and I exported them out of this app and then deleted it for good. And I haven't gone back. But for me, that app or that social media was a point of powerlessness. And I can only imagine for anybody listening, whether that's Amazon or Instagram, like, we all have places not just digitally, but also, like, a place like being home alone or being bored or that work trip. Like, there are so many points of powerlessness. And Nick, that's so good. I'm so glad you called that out because I think we hide. Those are little things, right? Those are big things. That's not addiction. It's like. No, that's aiding that deep rut that leads you back to this acting out.

Behavior that's so good. In the last several years I have, I mean like 10 years I've had to work on why do I say something was $10 when it was $10.79, you know, and, and John will call me out, that's $11. And, and, and it is Nick. Those little things that we know, they're white lives, they can become patterns. And, and it's why we, we in our groups, we ask, did you lie to anybody this week? Because once you start tracking it, you, you start realizing that you do lie or wig a lot of things either for self protecting, what, whatever it may be. And when we start calling it what it is, it gives us the ability to change. And there's just so much freedom that begins to happen, including how we feel as a betrayed spouse. What's wrong? Nothing. Well, that doesn't feel good then to walk away with because you, you know, you are not happy, but you don't know how to share that. Maybe you're, you're afraid of the outcome, maybe you're feeling powerless because you don't know that anything will actually change. It might create a conflict, so we just say nothing or it's fine. But then inside we're slowly dying and we start being passive aggressive and all the things so living 100% authentically on either side of the coin.

So good.

Okay, John, in your experience, what are the primary signs that someone might be in denial? Especially when it comes to sexual brokenness or betrayal trauma.

I actually want to start with a story here that Nick and I got to experience while traveling recently this year. I won't name the location, but we had a chance to show up and share with a group of younger 20 and 30 year olds. And before we were sharing, the night had been set up that Nick and John from Pure Desire are here and a former group member of mine and a dear friend was going to share his story. And it was just this, it was set to be this really powerful night where we get to bring darkness of sexual addiction and all these elements to light and get to put such voice to them. And hopefully people feel seen in the room. But as we were having dinner, we were getting to engage a younger couple that was there to join us for the night. And there was just like a lot of anger and kind of pushback and question asking and, like, this individual just really skeptical. And I was really confused by it, if I'm being honest. I'm like, did I say something wrong? I don't know. Did I forget your name? Like, you know what? Where did I trip some wire here? Because it feels like I did something socially that wasn't acceptable. Well, the night goes. It's a really beautiful evening. We're in the car afterwards again, we had shared our stories, and we're kind of debriefing. I was just like, I was getting to share. I was. I was really confused by this moment of anger that I had experienced from this younger man. I just said, it hit me in that moment. I'm like, I think he might be in denial. Like, I think he might need help. Because oftentimes the people who put on the biggest fronts have the biggest hurts. And I'm like, I wonder if he's carrying something that's really personal. And so he's putting on kind of this front that says, get away, get away, get away, don't know me. Don't get close to me. And I just said in the car, I'm like, jesus, if he needs a group, would he get into a group? And I kid you not, it was like, two minutes later, he texted my friend asking to join the group, saying, man, it was. In hearing Nick's story tonight, as Nick described building all these barriers in his marriage with his wife to get away from things, he's like, I've been there. Me and my wife have built barriers. We have covenant eyes. We've taken the right Christian steps to, like, approach healing, But I just haven't been able to find it. Here he was sitting with this moment of pain. And so when I think about ways in which people protect, I think about anger minimization and kind of pushing others away.

Well, that story was also awesome because I think in the car ride on the way home, we sensed that maybe this person was in denial. And one of us had prayed like God, if that's the case, we just pray that he'd break through that and he would join group. And literally, like a minute later, he texted the other guy and said, I need to join your group. And we were like, holy cow, Lord. That was fast.

I'm going to keep praying.

Right now was like 60 seconds later. So that was. That was pretty fun.

And then I just add maybe a note there as I get to engage with younger adults again. I'm 27, I'm single. I'm five years into my own recovery program. I just find guys minimizing details of their story. I think denial and the word minimization are really close together. Like, oh, like I grew up in the church and I came to know Jesus and yeah, high school was hard. Wait, hold on, what does that mean? And then I went to college and studied this and got this degree and now I work here. I'm like, wait, you didn't tell me anything. Like, there's so much hidden there or so much minimize my, hey, can you tell me, like, can you unpack that? Right. Dr. Ted's phrase, can you unpack that? Because I think it's really easy to hide things in our story again to that point of denial or lying or minimization. And I think as we've all been through group, we know life is hard. We know that pain and sin have impacted all of us. And so when I sit with a young adult and I hear a whole lot of almost sugarcoating, I'm like, there's more here and I'm not getting the full story. And I think being that kind, compassionate, curious, courageous question asker, to be an active listener can be a really helpful way to pull some of those individuals out of denial. Saying, can you tell me more about that? Because I don't think I'm getting the full story.

Yeah, yeah. A couple other signs I've seen of when someone's in denial. If in a group setting, they're really not engaging in their homework very well, they might say, it's, you know, I was busy. Or if there's a level of apathy there, there's usually a level of denial that they're really not engaging fully in their story. And then one other thing I've seen is, is when we're stuck in a pattern of continued relapse, and it might even be only every couple of months or it's been spaced out enough, but it keeps happening. And there's a belief at the same time. It's like, well, that time was different and it's never going to happen again. That was the last time. And as a friend of ours has said, if the last time wasn't the last time, this time probably won't be either. And when we're in a pattern without anything really changing, but we keep believing it's going to change, there's some issues of denial at play there.

Yeah, I think that's so good. I was getting teary just listening to your story because, I mean, how many of us wish we had somebody that knew what we were struggling with that could Sense what we were struggling with and then would just be bold enough to step in to those gaps and help or intercede or whatever it is. Intercede in prayer. This last weekend at the church that John and I are attending, those who were going through something and needed prayer were asked to stand up. And John and I kind of locked eyes on this young man, probably like you, John, like maybe 20s, you know, looks just like, you know, just single guy. I mean, that vibe, you know, and he's just tearful and. And we asked, you know, John said, do you mind sharing? And he said, finances and addiction. And. And John stayed back with him and connected him with somebody. But when you walk in the. Your story and you own it and you're not ashamed, then you're. You're not afraid to help others, you know, see it and use it and say it's okay. So I wish I had that. And now we're here trying to be that for others.

Yeah, well, breaking out of denial requires that commitment to honesty. One of the things that's in our seven Pillars of Freedom workbook for men says that recovery is a commitment to reality at all costs. And that means being honest. And so, Ashley, how do you help someone move from a place of self deception to a place of radical truth?

Okay, so two main things. One is you really have to have a relationship with somebody. And living authentically is the best teacher. I think I have helped people get into groups, help them find resources way more just by living the way that I live and being open and honest about struggles or not being afraid to share about a resource than trying to fix them, which was my old. My old self would be like, I have all the answers and I want to fix, but just living out my own story and saying, oh, I've been there, I've done that, or maybe I haven't been there, but I know enough to know a resource to point you to. And the other thing is, like you said, John, asking questions is such a good way to help people self discover what they need to do. Most people do not want to be told what to do, but if you're just a trusted person who can ask questions, that's good. So, for example, I have a friend in my life, and they've been married 20 years and they struggle and they both come to me with the issues of their marriage. And at one point I just said, if your spouse never changes, what do you need to do for yourself today? And. And that was kind of like a stopping point because at some point, if you're A good mentor, if you're a good friend, if you're a good guide, you. You need to hear and validate, but it can't be on repeat. At some point, you need to say, okay, and what are you going to do about that? What are you going to take? What are you going to do to take care of yourself? What step do you need to take? Okay, so this is really painful. We've talked about this. What's the next step to try to get you out of this and, and try to help pull them forward or. Or ask the questions. If you didn't wake your spouse up every day, this is on the betrayal side. If you didn't nag on them to go to work because you're afraid they're going to lose their job because they stayed up late playing games or watching porn or whatever, then what's the worst that can happen? And trying to help them discover that their spouse needs to have natural consequences or, you know, same on the addict side of just asking good questions to lead them to the answer.

Asha, I love what you're saying of, like, the way we do this is by modeling it right? Like, more is caught than taught. And I love Ashley that you often go first. Like, there's a level of vulnerability that comes into a room when Ashley Jameson is there, because that's just simply who you are. You're not comfortable living shallow anymore. You're like, I'm going to be honest. I'm going to be known, I'm going to be seen. And I think about even walking into church type settings. Of course, all of us are actively engaged in churches, and we know that many in the church are struggling with denial, addiction, betrayal, all of these things. I think we go first by simply saying when someone asks, how are you? We go first by being honest. Oh, I'm, you know, for Nick, like, I'm moving and there's transition, and this is painful for me. I'm like, I'm in a new relationship and I'm dating seriously for the first time, and I'm navigating all these nuances and it's. It's not easy and it's beautiful and it's hard, and we go first and we give them permission to go second. That gift of going second is so valuable.

Several hearts out there just were crushed when they heard that John is now dating seriously. But we're excited for you, John. You know, one of the things, I think learning to be honest is a skill that needs development. And one of the things I've done in Particular in group is, you know, really encourage people. Just answer the questions, answer all the questions. And even if you don't think your answer is very good or, well, this isn't that big of a deal. Like, write it down. Answer every question to the fullest ability. Because there's going to be stuff that you've been minimizing and denying that when you write it out and say it in group, the reality of it's going to hit you in a new way. Like, oh, did I really just say that? Like, that's my truth. And even something like the faster scale, which is our weekly emotional inventory check in. One of the things I love about it is that in every category, you read all the words, and what I'll say to people is if any of them was true, even a little bit, underline that word, because it may be that you're a lot further down the scale than you think you are because you've been so used to a way of life saying, I'm fine, things are good, you know, Then you fill out your faster scale and realize, oh, no, I'm living in exhausted every week. But I've defined it as normal. And really, this is not normal. So I think using the tools and using them to the fullest of their ability can really be a helpful way to get someone to break out of those denial patterns.

So good.

Nick, this is so. I mean, for. Okay, if you're new here, you don't know that I was a walking trauma in until I broke denial just from my own childhood abuse and sexual curiosity and rape and racism and alcohol addiction, eating disorder, betrayal, you know, pregnancy at a teenage year, just all the things. And then being in a really toxic first marriage, and I had so many health issues, autoimmune issues. And I remember when my rheumatologist said, are you stressed? And I'm like, no, I'm not stressed at all. Because that was my baseline. This was my baseline to just live chronically stressed. I practically raised myself as a kid and was always afraid and alone. And then when I came to pure desire, and I'd been on staff for a few years, Heather and I were creating a women's conference. And she said, hey, will you try this tool out for me? And I don't know if that was sneaky and trying to get me to do it or if she really wanted my feedback, but I did it. And. And it was the Holmes Race Stress Inventory. And she said, just mark the ones that apply to you from the last year. And. And it was objective. And I just had to. Like you're saying, Nick, I just had to check what happened. And then at the end, it's like, trauma, trauma, trauma. You are going to have a major health issue. That was the first time in all of my years, it must have been like, 35 years old that I was able to see I actually am in trauma, and I am very stressed out. I just wasn't calling it that because it was my norm. And I say all that because it's not about necessarily just the faster scale or just, you know, 10 worst moments tool. The. All these tools we use in group, it's that get in community. And then once you're in community and in a group, we will help you unpack those things and start figuring out things and connecting the dots. And when you hear other people share, you're able to see yourself through their story and say, that happened to me, too. And I never really thought about it as trauma or I never really thought about it as a painful experience. And it just helps you connect dots. So get in group. Get in group. If you haven't been in one yet, absolutely.

Just thanks for your transparency. It just makes me think of the quote, never underestimate the pain in the room. Everybody is fighting a hard battle. And even to your story, Ashley, like, there was realities and depths of pain that you yourself weren't even aware of because that had become your normal. And the gift of Heather and the gift of community to come around you to say, you know, flashlights, hey, hey, hey, this isn't okay, you know, warning signs, like, and to invite you into health, not out of judgment or shame, but saying, no, no, no, like, there's a better way and there's more for you on offer. And Nick, I mean, the next question just says, facing reality can be painful, and we know that full well in this roundtable. But just what role does grace play in helping somebody navigate the discomfort of truth as they move towards healing?

Yeah. I want to answer this question primarily from the perspective of how we need to understand grace for ourselves, because I think too quickly we jump to, hey, you need to give grace to that person. And particularly if we're a betrayed spouse, that's not the starting point for them at all. And if you've been given that pressure, like, that's another podcast that we've got several of them, that that's not your role right now. But if you're the individual who's been struggling or the. That betrayed spouse who's just, you know, heard this mountain load of all the Stuff you didn't know. Grace is really about finding that as a person you are loved and known and valued by your heavenly Father and, and what you do is not who you are. Now, we don't need to have grace for our behaviors because our behaviors may need to be dealt with. And so often in scripture that's when we see words of judgment or of, you know, God condemning sin. It's the behavior, but not the person. And I think too much we've connected the person to the behavior. But we need to read all the scriptures that talk about God's incredible grace for us as his creation, as people made in his image. And if we're in Christ, who have been made new in Christ, and no matter what we've done, no matter where we've gone with our behaviors, there is grace for us. And if we believe that and can start there, that can give us the courage to be honest about our behaviors because we know that doesn't change who we fundamentally are. And if, if we're the betrayed spouse that's heard some horrible things and is now questioning like our value and what did I do to make this happen and why was I not good enough and all those things. Grace means believing that in Christ and in God's creation of you, you are enough. And there is nothing your spouse could do. And even if they're somehow subtly or overtly trying to blame you for it, like no, grace says no, I, I am in Christ and Christ is in me. And, and that's enough. And if we can start there again, I think that gives us the courage to maybe do the hard work of facing what the behaviors have, the havoc they've, that it's wreaked in our lives.

So well said, Nick.

Yeah. And for me, I think back, I was 21 years old, I had two year old twin boys. I was working three jobs and going to school and my stress. This is when I developed OCD and an eating disorder at the same time. And I never thought I could go to counseling because I genuinely thought this was, this was 20 years ago. I feel so old. I genuinely thought that I would look, I would be looked at as crazy, that this would, this would tell my ex husband that I'm an unfit parent. If I have to get counseling, I can't handle my life. If I get counseling or go to a group, that means I'm not able to manage my life. And so then graduating from that thought into some pretty poor church teaching of you shouldn't feel depressed, you shouldn't, you shouldn't feel stress if you have Jesus. As believers, we shouldn't feel those things because we have Jesus. We have the hope of Jesus. Those words were literally said to me or to the audience at a camp I was sitting at. Now my kids are 5 years old and I'm like, okay. So then I graduate onto another church and I go to a recovery church and I'm. And it's a little bit better of a step of people are real, they're honest about their problems. But because of Testimony Night, I started to become confused again. Because it was before Christ, my life looked like this. After Christ, I was set free. And now it looks like this. And so I was still missing something. That Christian that can be honest and struggle and have pain and. And that they're still a believer. And so that's what I appreciate about Pure Desire is we don't spiritually bypass those feelings and say God's truth is God's truth. But if we, if we tell somebody who's going through a really hard time, God wouldn't give you more than you can handle, or he makes all things work out for good for those who love him. It's like, yeah. And pause. We need to unpack this pain, deal with it, maybe have some. What is one of our co workers say? Jesus with flesh on it. Come alongside us and help fold laundry. I'm like, yes, Jesus won't give me more than I can handle, but I am 21 years old with full time school and three jobs and twin boys on the third floor of an apartment. Somebody come get my kids and take them to the park while I'm doing my homework or something, you know, so that was what I learned in Pure Desire, was that it's both and these truths of God are true and we can have real pain and need some tools and people to come alongside us.

Yeah.

Actually just to say, my goodness, like, what a moment you found yourself in. And I'm just so glad you're here. Like, you know, for anybody who hasn't heard Ashley's story and you're getting glimpses of it on this podcast, please go hear Ashley's full story. Because there's so much beautiful witness that you carry to the power of Christ's grace and redemption on offer for wherever you are, whatever you're walking through, that's really beautiful.

Okay, John, what are the common emotional or spiritual challenges people face when they begin to confront the denial in their life and how can they push through those hurdles?

Yeah, I want to make it really practical and go back to Just family of origin. I think so many of us grew up in families of origin where emotions were, were not safe and not to be trusted. And so I think a tool like the faster scale, and again, if you haven't been through a pure desire group, this is a foundational tool that we ask on a weekly basis, how low on the faster scale did you get this week? A tool that helps us build emotional awareness. But I remember the first time I was walking through it. It was actually with Ben Bennett, one of our board members. And we were in the Hope center in Plano, Texas, as I was a new intern and he was walking me through the faster scale and I got really angry. I had ticked off on the faster scale as he was walking me through the faster scale. Because I'm going, if this is true, why has nobody ever told me about this? Yeah, like, wait, my relapses, my acting out behavior, my use of pornography or masturbation isn't random. What? Like my paradigm got shattered. Because again, in my family of origin, to feel wasn't always safe. Right. You couldn't cry unless there was blood. I grew up on a farm and ranch in South Dakota. Like, I literally was just watching childhood videos where the phrase was cowboy up, get tough, cowboy up, get tough. Like, and, and again, I have so much love and admiration for my parents. They are on their own journey. They listen to this podcast. Dad, I love you. I love those moments. Thank you for being present. Thank you for playing with me. All these things, and yet there was this level of emotions aren't safe and can't be trusted. But here's the reality. As I was ignoring them, I was actually just burying them underneath the surface. Not making the varsity basketball team as a freshman crushed my sense of identity, crushed my sense of security. I felt abandoned. I felt rejected. I had to play on the C team. I was one jersey away from the varsity team. And then I found myself playing on the C team the whole year. And I just remember crying near our family's pantry in my dad's mud room and my parents having to come find me and they're like, what's going on? And I'm just a 15 year old emotional wreck. But again, I didn't necessarily have language or tools to accurately define what I was feeling. So what did I do? I buried them. Cowboy up, cowboy up, get tough. And what did I do? I went back to my room and I probably used masturbation that night as a coping mechanism because I didn't know how to process what I was feeling. And so, regarding emotional and spiritual denial, I just think for some of us, it's even just an invitation to have accurate language to begin describing what we're actually feeling. And if we can name that reality, that's a part of breaking denial, I truly think the path forward begins to get a whole lot clearer. This is where I'm at. Here's where I want to be. How do I now get there?

Our phrase was big boys don't cry. That's what I would hear in my voice. I think one of the challenges we face in Breaking denial is starting to realize how addicted we are to our way of thinking. That we discover these patterns have actually been how we've survived and learned to cope. And they're harder to let go of than we thought. It makes me think of, and this is a story told in the Seven Pillars of Freedom Workbook for Men about Peter getting out of the boat because Jesus calls him to walk on the water. And that we're like, Peter, we're walking into recovery. But we look at the waves and the storm, and it's like, what am I doing? And there's this boat here that's safe, and we're still holding onto the edge of it. Like, I don't think I actually want to let go of this. And when we start breaking out of denial and moving into truth and honesty, it gets scary. There's parts that are like, do I really want people to know that this is how I think? Or these are the things I struggle with? Or this is my pattern? Or that I lie about 15 cents at the grocery store because I'm so worried about someone judging me for overspending and. And this desire to retreat back to what is safe, to that boat we've been holding onto because it feels scary, is a huge hurdle. And yet the reality is that it's on the water with Jesus looking at him and trusting him. That's where we change. And so that desire to hold on is really strong. But we have to have the vision of why it's worth letting go and entering into something pretty scary that gives us the courage to take those steps and not retreat back into those patterns of denial.

So good. And say, Ashley, do you want to speak to spiritual bypass? I know you were talking about it briefly, but I really do think that's a hurdle. Like, we've been given so many spiritual answers that maybe we're stuck in spiritualizing our okayness or our lack of badness. Like, I love. I love how you define it. Could you speak to spiritual Bypass and how that's a hurdle.

Well, it was a hurdle for me. I found my way to healing and recovery through my husband's addiction. That's what finally broke the denial that I. I needed something. And I started with betrayal before I addressed my own issues. And I went the whole summer I've told this story, too. I was in so much pain, and I gave up drinking. I gave up social media. I was reading 50 chapters of my Bible. I kid you not, every single day I read the whole Bible. And I was still hearing from the church because I was so upset and in so much pain and taking my anger out on my children. I felt like God betrayed me. I tried to do things right. And they would say, oh, are you trusting God? Are you sure you've forgiven Him? And they would use all these scriptures. And it's like, I know these scriptures. I'm reading 50 chapters a day, but it's not working. And so I started praying to God to bring me people and resources that could help because I knew he was a good God. But I started feeling like a crappy Christian because the things that I was told to do were not working. And when I found pure desire and realized it's a brain and a heart issue and I can know something in my head, but it's going to take time and practice and effort to get my behaviors to follow or to put boundaries in or whatever it is I needed. That was when things really started to shift for me. And that's why I say it's not that God's word is not true, but being in a group helped me see maybe where I had a roadblock. Or like Nick said, I have my own way of thinking and I needed another perspective or I needed tools to help me unpack. Where did I stop believing that truth of God? There's something that happened to me that. That altered that thought. And so, yeah, true statements, but we need more than just just that.

Yeah. That may be part of breaking out of denial is even to acknowledge that some of my good spiritual practices aren't enough.

Yes.

And that's not saying they're bad. It just says there's more to healing than that practice and that that can be part of it for sure. Ashley, kind of a different direction here. As we think about denial, we may be the spouse or friend or group member of someone that we can see through the window of their lives that they're in some denial, but maybe they're not able to see it in the mirror. In that situation, is there anything we can do to help or do we just have to wait and hope and pray that they'll see they're in denial on their own?

Well, usually it's not a one comment. And so I'm going back to an earlier answer of living in relationship and continuing to be honest and safe and truthful with your friend. I have found from experience that almost everybody in my life, whether they're the struggler or the betrayed, there's never been. One time they came to me and I said, oh, you should try this. And then they've done it and it's radically changed their world. It's more walking alongside with them, sharing some resources. I was listening to this podcast and it reminded me of the conversation we just had the other night. Just so you know, we have tons of podcasts. There's always one for an app to, to share with somebody and it's usually, it's usually a years of relationship if they're really stuck, that you build that trust and you build that safety. Of course, if they're in like crazy crisis and hemorrhaging out and they're coming to you for help and you could say you need to get in a group now, that's great. But I just go back to offer what you can, whether it's your own story, your own experience, a resource, and then sometimes calling it what it is helps them see. And so I had a family member who was abused growing up and, and they were sharing their experience and I just paused and said, you know that's abuse, right? You know, that is not normal and that is abuse. And they just started crying and bawling and said nobody had ever called it that. And so just.

That's powerful.

Living authentically with people.

Yeah, it just makes me emotional. I love these conversations because I think for me, just thinking into my own story of how was denial broken or how could we be that gift to somebody else? It was somebody else just going first with their story. Which is why I believe sharing our stories is such a transformative moment. And I don't think I will ever get sick of. I don't think I'll ever get tired. I don't think I'll ever grow weary of stewarding my own weakness or brokenness if it allows somebody across the table to say, me too. I think that's the easiest way for somebody to break denial is to hear their story basically presented to them in a kind, compassionate telling and simply the opportunity then for them to say two words. Me too. That phrase right there for somebody can be transformative. Simply say, I've been where you've been. I don't know how to get where you are, but I need relationships or people and resources like you're describing, Ashley, in order to pursue that.

I think if we're the spouse or friend, one of the kind things we can do is just in a gracious way, speak truth, speak factual reality. So maybe it's approaching someone in group who's acknowledged a pattern of relapse, but they don't seem to be calling it that. And we might lovingly point out, like, hey, I know in the time of group, like a couple months ago, you talked about this relapse. Last month there was this. This month, there's this. Is it possible that this is a pattern that you're not acknowledging that's going to keep happening unless you face it? And you're not shaming them. You're not saying what's wrong with you? Why don't you see this? You're trying to present some facts and then say, based on these facts, what do you think the reality is here and. And letting them just kind of sit in that uncomfortable place and going, oh, you know, it was Ted Roberts saying to me, nick, you scored a 16 out of 20, and if you're above 6, you're likely an addiction. Don't you think maybe this is part of your story? It's like, well, maybe. I mean, I still had to do the work. I still had to be willing to say yes. I still had to, like, Ted couldn't do it for me, but he was willing to call it what it was and speak that truth in love to really confront what I had been working so hard to avoid.

Wow. I say into that note, Nick, just to make it really practical, could you share a story of someone that you've worked with who's made the decision to break free from denial and simply maybe highlight, like, what was that process for them, like, and maybe it was a friend or a group member or somebody around you.

Yeah. I think back to actually the church that I was at as a pastor, because in 2011, I had shared my story. Michelle and I had started groups. Like, it had become this major ministry effort in our church. We were becoming known around town as the church that talked about pornography. And I was known as the porn pastor. And it was like, that was just kind of our world. And yet, you know, there were. There were people that didn't engage right away. And there was a guy in particular. I'm like, I'm pretty sure he needs group and our relationship Wasn't strong enough that I could just be like, hey, are you struggling with pornography? Like, I didn't know how to say that. But it was a couple years into this that we ran the Conquer series for men. And because it was a larger invite of just, hey, all men need to understand this. You've got people, sons, friends that struggle. Come and be a part of helping. And he came to group, and I watched him walk through that process. And it wasn't even right away after that, but it was several months later. Like, he finally came in and said, you know, I think I've been avoiding this the whole time, but I think I need group. You know, there's a little party who want to be like, I knew it. I told, you know, I didn't do that, though. I was like, man, I'm so grateful that you're. You're willing to walk into it. And he stepped into group, and it was. It was really a transforming experience for him. But I think that's part of the reality. And now if we're the spouse of someone, we may not have the ability to be patient to that degree. We may need to call something what it is. But in a friendship, in a church, in a, you know, a circle of acquaintances, there may be a level of patience, of waiting and praying. And like you said earlier, John, telling our story, being real about what we've experienced, and then, you know, not hitting them over the head of like, so when are you going to start your journey? But letting the Holy Spirit do the work in their lives until they come to the point of saying, you know, I think I might need this. And watching that happen was just really exciting. And I wish they could have started the journey two years earlier.

Yes.

But I think if I had have pushed too hard, it would have pushed them away. And again, if you're the spouse, you may need to push because you know something's happening and you're not willing to live with it. And that's a different circumstance. But in a friend situation, a church, small group, I think that willingness to be real about your story, keep offering opportunities, and then waiting for them to come to that point can be a part of the process, honestly.

Yeah, I think of. And Ashley, I'm sure you've got stories of like this, too. I've got two stories that come to mind. Stories of betrayed spouses who've done incredibly brave things to help their. Their spouse, like break free from denial. Was recently talking with a couple where because of going through betrayal and beyond, he wasn't pursuing the pillars at all. She got to a point in her safety action plan where she advocated for herself for a separation, asked him to leave the house. There was still a level of interaction they had as a couple, but he was no longer sleeping in the house. And it was a month or two into him staying at the local motel that he finally felt the gravity of pain that he had caused his wife because there was a Sexual Integrity 101 class that she had invited him into a year prior. He denied that. I don't need that. That's not for me. She's like, I think you need the pillars. He's like, that's not for me. And finally the pain finally set in. A month into him being in this motel that he joined a seven pillars group. Right now he's halfway through that group. And we got to meet with him recently, and he was just in tears. In tears. Why? Because the level of abuse and pain this man has walked through in his own personal life. Childhood is horrific, like, literally horrific. And he is, for the first time doing the hard work that he never wanted to do of going backwards. But what catalyzed that? His wife, who had experienced betrayal, advocating for herself and taking a really hard step. Why was it hard? Because the community around her is saying, like, what are you doing? Or are you tanking your marriage? Like, how is this going to work? And, man, Rodney and I, as we were getting to meet with this couple, just said, thank you for doing the work. Like, thank you for leaning in into this betrayed spouse. Like, thank you for caring for yourself and your marriage and your family enough to take the step that you needed. And yeah, just to say, man, we all have different roles to play. And to your point, Nick, whether it's a friend level or a spouse level, the way we engage this conversation is going to be different. Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah. And John, I'm really glad that you emphasize that. And we say for the betrayed spouse. And, and Nick, you said sometimes you. You can't be, you know, patient as a betrayed spouse because you might need to address something right away. But often there's this waiting and observing period that we have to have. You. You state what you need for safety, you share what changes can be made in order for you to re. Engage and, and feel safe and move forward with this marriage. And then there's this really awful waiting period where we wait for that struggler to decide if they're going to own it and make those changes. And in that waiting period, it's so good to have support and other things. For us to be doing, because this can be painful. It's a hard choice.

And Nick, to your point earlier, I just got teary eyed because I remember a story of. It was the first week I had moved to Portland. This is four years ago, and I was having pizza with two guys, and I was there with my roommate. We had just recently kind of met as we were in an apartment together. And I just leaned in like I had learned to do and shared my story really honestly. And I'm not saying that was so wise, but almost anytime I do that, I just expect others to go really vulnerable and honest too. And the guys that we were having dinner with didn't. And I got in the car afterwards and I was really angry, you know, because I'm trying to save the world and if they're not getting honest, then I can't save the world. It was about performance. It was not love. Like, I didn't show up in love that night. And my roommate's like, dude, are you okay? Like, this is weird. But two years later, I went to lunch with one of the guys from that night, and I jumped in his car after church, and he simply looked at me. He said, john, I've been running away from you for two years. I was like, really confused. Like, oh no, what did I do? He's like, because that night you shared your story. I was so angry because you could have basically scripted out my story. Like, what you shared is my story. I've got the same thing and I have no idea what to do. And he goes, I'm finally coming around to figuring out that I need to ask you for help. Two years later, he got into group, went through group, unpacked so much of the pain that he had experienced growing up in the Midwest. At the end of the group, he's like, first off, this isn't even all that much about porn. Second, everybody in the church needs this group. He's like, how do I get my girlfriend into one of these groups? It just. He became. He went from denial. And I don't know what that internal decision was for him to finally say, I've been running from you. And then got into a group and began to find so much traction just in being seen and known and loved by the other man in the group.

Yeah, all right. For someone listening who's feeling trapped in denial, what would be your encouragement to help them take the first step toward freedom?

Really simply, I think going to PureDesire.org and going to our resources tab and downloading the sexual addiction screening Test, or what we refer to as the sast, could be the most practical step you could take in listening to this podcast. You've heard Nick talk about his own score. I've taken the same test, which was such a critical part of breaking denial and realizing, oh, I have a core item score here that's indicative of an addiction. And if that's true, then confessing or praying or memorizing more might not be the most helpful pathway forward. Those are good things, but maybe not full things. And I might need people and resources like you've been talking about, Ashley, that can help me get from where I am to where I want to be. So I just encourage go to PureDesire.org and download the Sexual Addiction Screening Test. Yeah.

I think what comes to mind for me, if we're suspecting, as we've listened to this conversation, that maybe there's a level of denial. And even right now, we're probably like, but it's not that big a deal. Or, you know, it's only once, you know, those are the languages of denial. And I think the greatest thing you can do is, in humility, go and tell someone and open up your story to say, what do you see that maybe I'm not seeing? Because the truth is, we all have blind spots. And if you're a human being, you have blind spots in your story, in your ways of thinking, and it's when you tell it to somebody else, if you're open to it in humility and say to them, what am I missing? And you let someone speak into it and go, I think you need to get in group. Or, I think you might be battling an addiction here. Or I think this. And if it's someone you trust and respect, like, really take that to heart and go, okay, I think maybe I'm in denial, and I'm gonna need to face some things. But if we just keep it to ourselves and decide we're gonna try harder to fix it, that is a byproduct of denial. And that's why I would say the greatest thing you can do is tell someone and in humility, ask for them to give some input.

Yeah. And then mine would just be, you don't know what you don't know. But I can promise you that if you're living in denial, living a double life, sitting in some betrayal, pain, and don't know what step to take, the energy that we put into holding that together, to just try to maintain, to just try to survive is so much more exhausting and draining than. Than what it will be when we start taking those action steps to, to get out of it. And so just I guess maybe hang on to the hope of those who have gone before and know that you will experience real freedom and almost like more of your life was given back to you because we're not having to hold everything together anymore.

Amen. It's better on this side. It might be harder. There are things about it that are definitely challenging. Learning to live in reality at all costs is not easy, but it's better on this side. As we wrap up this first episode in our Foundations of Freedom series, we are reminded that healing begins with the courage to face the truth. Denial might feel safe, but it ultimately keeps us from the freedom that we're longing for. And so listener, we're with you in this. If you're early in your journey trying to figure out how do I do this? You're not alone. Keep listening and I think this series will be a huge encouragement to you. So Ashley, John, thanks for being a part of the conversation and for sharing your wisdom and experience with all of.

Us honored.

People online. Can't hear you smiling, Ashley. You need to say like thanks, I'm glad to be here.

I'm so glad to be here. Thanks guys. This is a good conversation.

Yes. And if you are a fan of the content, if you got something out of today's show, would you please subscribe, share it with somebody, write us a review, give it a like all of these are ways that more people can encounter this life giving content. And if you want information about pure desires, groups, resources or counseling, Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone. SA.