419 - Surrendering to the Process

Foreign listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior and finding healing from betrayal trauma. Today is episode 419, and here joining me as my co host throughout this series is again Mr. Mike Maxwell. Mike, welcome back to the show.

How are you, Nick?

Thanks.

Glad to be here.

Good, good, good to see you again. How have you been in the last two hours since we did the other show? Well, I had some lunch.

I'm feeling really good.

Yeah, it's the magic of recording that. These will come out a week apart, but we're recording them about an hour apart, so. Well, I'm excited about this show because I think, as we were mentioning in our dialogue before the show, it's kind of revisiting some of the core components of recovery. What makes recovery successful? What might make this process with a Pure Desire group? We're a group in our church. What might make it different than other attempts that we've made? And today, I think is really a significant part of that because we're revisiting or exploring, really one of the key components of recovery at Pure Desire, and that is to surrender to the process. And today we talked with one of our group's team experts, our women's group's lead, Kelly Johnston, and she had a lot to say about surrendering to the process.

Yeah, it was really insightful. She has got a lot of wisdom, and I always appreciate hearing from a women's point of view.

Yeah, I think many of us, the word surrender is a challenging one because it feels in our culture like weakness or like giving up or giving in. And those haven't always been positive things, but that's what I hope people will really be able to see. The clarity of this doesn't mean giving up or it doesn't mean giving in to someone controlling you, but it does mean, in a way, opening up my heart and mind to the things that. That I need help with and acknowledging that I need help. Right.

And trusting that God wants to help you.

Yeah. So I think whether you are the one that's struggling, if you are the betrayed spouse, you are just a friend or a leader that wants to help. I believe there's tons of great insight into really what makes a recovery process effective when we trust that process and surrender to it. So a little bit more about Kelly Johnston. She is the women's group lead at Pure Desire, and prior to being on our staff team, she was a volunteer Leader as one of our regional group advisors. She has a bachelor's in psychology and counseling with a minor in addiction recovery and Biblical studies. Kelly holds her psap, as many of us do, a pastoral Sex addiction professional certification through itap, the International Institute of Trauma and Addiction Professionals. She has been leading group since 2015 and now helps many, many women in their group journey. Kelly is passionate about encouraging and supporting women on their healing journey. She loves witness the process when women have head knowledge of the passionate love of God that then penetrates their heart and creates transformation. So here now is our conversation. So here now is our conversation with Kelly Johnston on surrendering to the process. Kelly Johnson, welcome back to the podcast. It's good to have you on again.

It is good to be here.

So you were on one other time, but it's been a while. So maybe just quickly remind our listeners, like, who are you, where do you live, and what is your role at Pure Desire?

Well, that's a long story, but I am Kelly Johnston. I live in Wisconsin, and I'm on the Minnesota Wisconsin border in a little tiny country town. And we have chickens and lots of cats and love being outdoors. And I'm the women's group's lead. So I oversee much of the online women's groups and help with the church groups as well.

Yes. And Kelly is an awesome part of the Pure Desire team. We actually met Kelly at an event in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, and from there she's been leading groups and then became a staff member. And she's kind of a great, I think, win or success story of someone whose life has been impacted by Pure Desire and is now giving back. And we're grateful to glean from you and all the experience you've had both in your own story, in leading groups and helping other women lead groups around this idea of surrendering to the process. So let's just start there. What does surrendering to the process mean to you, and why is it such a crucial part of the recovery journey?

Yeah, it's, it's really funny that this is the question because I'm kind of known in our church for saying trust the process. Like whenever we're endowed. That's kind of the, the word. That's the phrase. But, you know, in this journey specifically, you know, as we're. We're beginning, you know, we've done something a certain way. We've had this way of living our lives, whether it's through coping mechanisms or safety mechanisms or this is just how we've always done it when we're trying to make a change. Something's got to change, right? So, like, I love that saying, if nothing changes, nothing's gonna change. So as we're. We're walking into this, it's like, okay, I can't keep doing things the way I've always done it. I. I think a lot about. I walked with women as well on the journey of changing your health and eating habits. And often women are like, well, how can I cheat the system? You know, like, how can I make this work where I can still eat this little thing at the end of. Or whatever? So, like, how do I take what I'm doing, set that aside, and how do I fit my life into recovery versus how do I make this recovery fit into what I've always done? I think that's a huge piece of, like, finally getting that surrender like this. I have not figured this out. I'm in need of change.

As you're talking, I'm thinking there's actually. There's a lot of stuff here. But as I go to the next question, surrendering often involves a sense of trust and vulnerability. How do you help people navigate the fear and resistance that can come with surrender and control? And I would add that's different between the betrayer and the betrayed.

I've been in this season of, like, feeling feelings, and that resistance is just part of that process. You know, there. There is that natural resistance. So, like, okay, let's. Let's notice it. And then after we've gotten to a place where we should be able to lay this down and become vulnerable, then. Then that's a place of curiosity, you know, being in the group's perspective. The beginning of this journey often comes with the group experience. And that's like, our main foundation is creating a place of safety so you can have trust and vulnerability. Like, trust and vulnerability. It's like a heart posture. It's an opening up which feels scary, and it feels like, okay, this is not a place that I want to be. So the opposite of that is. Is retreating back to those old behaviors. Right. Of being safe, and that's the isolation. So, like, it's so important to have place that does feel safe so we can have that trusted vulnerability. We can open up to others. Yeah, it's the foundation of what we do in our groups. That's what our main focus of our leaders is to create that place of safety. So when we go back into that place of isolation, I think that's a lot of fear. That's a place where we find that fear. And so Again, back to that curiosity. Why am I feeling this fear? Why. Why is this resistance here? And these are really good indicators of places of work that needs to be done.

Yeah. There's any number of reasons we might feel fear, resistance. And like you're saying, Kelly, exploring those reasons is actually a healthy part of the process and not guilting or shaming yourself that you have them, because I think we all do. At the beginning, there's this sense of, I want to. I want to keep control. I love the way you said in the first question, like, can I just do it my way and still get the same results? Because I do want the results. I just want to do it my way. And yet we've just seen over and over it doesn't work. You know, I look back at when I started my healing journey and just remember the thought, what I often will say is, I didn't know what I didn't know. Right? Like, I couldn't possibly fix it or work on something because I didn't even know the things I didn't know about my brain and the ways trauma connected and the ways that this pattern went so much deeper than just a moral choice. Like, there were things I didn't know, and I could have tried as hard as I possibly could, and it wasn't going to work. And another phrase that I've said to people is that if you could have gotten here on your own, you would have probably been there by now, right? Like, the reason you're coming to this group or you're seeking out help is because you've tried it on your own way. You've done the things you know to do, and it hasn't worked. And I've. I've even said that to people like, hey, if. If you haven't tried to. To stop doing pornography or stop that behavior or fix your relationship, if you've never really tried, well, start there. Go. Go try. And if. If you can do it on your own, great. We'll all clap and celebrate with you. But most of us have found it's not a question of trying. It's a question of knowing what. How to try in the right way to get the kind of results I want. And that will involve some kind of step of humility of saying, you know what? I don't know the right way to go. I have a willingness to go there. I want to see change, but I don't actually know the way. It makes me think of one of my favorite movies, which is the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and there's this great moment at the Council of the Ring where all these really wise leaders are trying to say, what are we going to do about this ring? And they decide it has to be destroyed in the heart of Mount Doom. But who will take it? You know? And the little hobbit Frodo goes up and he says, I'll do it, but I don't know the way. Who will show me the way? And that's where Gandalf, you know, the wise wizard, steps up. He's like, I'll lead. I'll show you the way. That's like, what we need. That willingness to say, I will take this journey is a big part of the equation. But also that humility to say, but I don't know how to get there. Can someone show me the way? And that's what group is for. That's what counseling is for. That's why pure desire is. Here is say, we want to be your guide to partner with your willingness. But you have to be able to say, I don't know which way to go.

Yeah. So much of the process, you know, as I think about this for how do I engage in the process of trust and vulnerability? And I'm thinking from the male's perspective, you know, he's. Maybe he hasn't been busted yet, or maybe he did get busted. I think the stats are, like, 1 in 10 guys will actually join a group without being coerced in some way. But the thing I wanted to know, is there a payoff for this risk? Yeah. Is there a payoff for the risk? And I think that's one of the beautiful things that PD offers, is we have a history of success, of helping people walk through the process. And when I can take a guy in group and say, you need to trust the process, because I've seen it work over and over and over, that allows them to go, okay, I can be vulnerable and maybe hesitantly trust that just to take the next step.

You know, you guys are hitting on a bunch of really amazing things. And I thinking of the betrayed partner she's got, he or she has another layer of that journey for herself to, like, trust the process of healing for her. That no matter whether the addict is choosing recovery or isn't choosing recovery or whether their marriage is, you know, resolves and there's reconciliation at the end, which is always the hope, right? But she not only has to trust her process, but then she's got to trust his process as well. And that's really difficult. Like, I want to see that it goes at this Pace. And it's at the same pace as mine. And that's. That's just another double layer for her of, like, trust his process and trust your own process. And I remind our leaders to remind their women of that very often.

Yeah. I suspect for the woman, if she has been kind of the gatekeeper for him in the past, letting go of that and going, I have to trust that I don't have to check on his phone. I don't have to find out where he's going. I don't have to follow him when I. You know, there's a whole different type of trust.

Another layer.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think the whole process speaks to ways, in healthy ways in which we have to let go of the things that we can't control. And we can't control other people. We can't control what's happening in someone else's group. But we can look at our effort and our willingness to engage fully in the process we're in and trust that it will lead us to a good place even while we let someone else do their work, which. Which is hard. And so, Kelly, in that regard, in your experience, what are some of the most common obstacles that people face when it comes to surrendering to God's timing and his process in their healing?

Control. A lot of these things we've talked about. Control. Fear. The fear of. There's so many fears, but, like the fear of. For. For the betrayed spouse. Like the fear that it's not going to happen. The fear that I'm going to be lied to again, I'm going to be betrayed again. The fear that I can't trust myself to know that what's happening is. Is true. Yeah. That there's a whole layer of. Of healing from what's already been done. And then, like, learning to undo those feelings and then being able to. To walk out this new journey of trusting this process with new eyes, with a new vision of. Of how am I responding to this? So there's. There's that piece of it, but then fear on the. The struggling partner side of, you know, fear of the unknown, fear of having to face the. The thing that has been the driving force of those coping behaviors. You know, I have to put this down. I think there's so much, so many parallels to just our Christian walk. Like the fear of people when they become a believer thinking, oh, I'm not going to be able to have fun anymore. You know, this part of my life has to go away, so I'm not going to have fun anymore. So, like, Putting aside a lot of those behaviors and thinking there's a piece of my life that is going to have to disappear. And, and with that comes, like, facing the fear of those, of those, those behaviors or the, the reasons that we have those behaviors. I often think too that there are also the just a warped perception or maybe an uninformed perception of God and like, having to. Maybe it's coming from a place of like, legalism or just church wounding, but just not really trusting God in the process.

As you're talking about that, I'm thinking about people who come to us and are specifically considering counseling a married couple. You know, it's a financial commitment. And from their perspective, there's no guarantee that they're coming out the other side in a healthy way. And you see, sometimes you'll see the betrayed spouse say, this isn't my problem. You need to take this journey alone. And I think that's an obstacle personally, because this journey is done much better and in a more comprehensive way when both partners are involved in the process. And we've seen over and over that when both of them are engaged, the outcome is much better.

Yeah, I think one of the realities is that whatever woundedness or trauma that has caused our negative or compulsive behavior, we bring into the counseling or group process. And so for me, you know, a major part of my story is performance to be loved, that if I perform well enough that I'm accepted and loved. And that fear, even like with Dr. Ted Roberts as my counselor, was that if I don't do recovery well enough or if I don't work hard enough, or if I share too much that reveals how twisted I was in my thinking or how sinful I had become, that I would be rejected. And that fear of maybe I better hold back or I better just do the work to make people like me and approve of it, versus actually doing the work. You know, the work we do in group or in counseling isn't for the group, it's not for the counselor. But I think early on that was my mindset of, well, what do I need to do to make them happy? And coming to that place of slowing down and going, I need to trust the process. And I'm doing this work for me and asking, what do I need to do not to perform well? What do I need to do to learn? What do I need to do to grow, to become self aware? Like, those are really important questions. I think one other obstacle that comes to mind for me, and I don't know if you've seen this, Kelly. But there's definitely, especially in this whole realm, whether it's because of church hurt or bad counseling advice or just stories that are out there, there are all these things that people have heard. Well, I've heard this. You know, it's like, well, I heard about that one airplane that it crashed and everybody died. And if that's what dictates your way of viewing air travel, is that one story you heard, you'll never get on an airplane. And I think a lot of people maybe have some of those fears I've heard, you know, they were forced to do these things or this bad outcome happened. And sometimes we have to kind of quiet that noise and go, you know what? I'm going to. I'm going to get the truth here. I'm going to research Pure Desire or any other ministry or counselor. I'm going to find out what people have said about their care. I'm not just going to listen to one random story and decide that I can't get helped or that I'll be rejected if I share something. But. But those just recognizing stories like that can have a powerful impact on shaping our thinking. And sometimes we have to face that and go, you know what? That might not actually be the reality for everyone that pursues help in this area.

Yeah, I think with that there's some comparison of our stories and the healing journey. So either like, well, your story is. Is worse than mine, or your husband just struggles with this, or you're. You only struggle with this. You know, there's this comparison of what the. What the circumstances, but then the comparison about the rate in which we recover. And so if we maybe have had failed attempts in the past, like, oh, even my own history, I'm. I'm kind of holding that as my narrative of what to expect the next time around. So, yeah, I see exactly what you're saying, Kelly.

How would you encourage people to embrace the messiness of recovery, which we all know it is messy without feeling discouraged, overwhelmed by the imperfections that come with it.

Again, I alluded to. I'm in a season of learning to feel feelings. I was one of those people where I could tell you what I was feeling, but I didn't really want to feel it. And so I would use that in this, like, feel the discouragement and the overwhelming. It is. It is an overwhelming process. And I. For couples, like, in the beginning of this journey, it sometimes can feel like it's getting worse before it gets better. You know, I think about women who come into the. Into Betrayal and beyond who maybe their discovery was 10 years ago. And this has been kind of dormant for a long time. And now they're going back in and they're digging up all the old stuff, and their husbands come back and say, are you sure you should be in this group? Because I think that you're getting worse. You know, she's digging up all of those old feelings again. And. And I. I often will tell her, like, just know it can get a little bit wonky before you start to see some improvement. But in that, like, feel it. There's grief, there's loss. There's all sorts of feelings that we have to feel along the way. This is a. This is a marathon, not a sprint. And it doesn't happen overnight, this recovery and healing. So I would just say, really just feel those feelings and then don't quit. You know, when you feel discouraged or you feel overwhelmed, just know on the other side of it, you're going to be so thankful that you. You just pressed in and you did. You did the work.

I think this is one of those questions where the answer is almost in the question itself. You know, how do you get people to embrace the messiness? And some of it is just to acknowledge I'm going to need to embrace the messiness. You know, I remember when we started counseling, that's one of the things Dr. Ted Roberts told me was, you're probably going to get angrier, and it's probably going to get worse before it gets better. And I'm like, yeah, okay, we'll see. But sure enough, I got into group, and I had to start doing these lessons each week. And I realized when I would go to do the lessons, I would just start to feel this anger and frustration, like, what is going on? And I realized that those were feelings that had all been there, kind of like you said, Kelly, But I didn't know how to feel them. And now that I wasn't ignoring them anymore or just pushing them away, I was having to face them and say, where is this coming from? What is attached to the feeling of anger? Actually, defining that anger is not in and of itself a primary emotion. It's secondary that I'm feeling angry because of something and learning to ask that because of. Because I feel disrespected or I feel ashamed or I feel like I'm worthless, or I feel that that involves some real vulnerability. It involves humility. It involves openness and trust, and that that's just hard and it's messy. But the only way I was going to understand my anger and all that strong emotion was to do that work. And I think had, you know, Dr. Ted and others not given me that encouragement of, it'll be messy. You're going to get. It's probably going to get worse. That's part of the process. And if we expect it, then when it happens, we're not like, oh, my gosh, what's wrong? Why am I going through this? Like, oh, this is what they said would happen. And I'm going to do my best to trust the process and keep moving forward.

Yeah. You know, as I look back at my own journey, I think the thing that encouraged me to press in was a counselor. And then group followed after that. But the counselor was willing to go through the process with me and kind of hold my hand emotionally as I embraced the messiness. I remember him saying, mike, you're going through life holding two beach balls underwater. And that takes a lot of energy. And he said, until you're willing to sit with the discomfort and the messiness, so to speak, and the pain of addressing what those are and deflate that beach ball, you will try and control this your whole life. And I think that was really imperative for me to have somebody that was kind of a mentor to walk me through the process. And I think that's one of the reasons I love being a group leader, is because I get to walk through the messiness with them and keep encouraging. Even last night, we're doing our top 10, and one guy's like, I didn't do this exercise because I don't want to think about it. Huh. And I'm like, this is one of the most pivotal exercises in the book. You really need to go through this. So we decided we're going to get together for coffee on Saturday and try and talk it through and, you know, just deflate some of the shame that there is around whatever he's not wanting to divulge.

Yeah.

I would say if. If it feels messy and overwhelming, it's working. Because. Because like you said, we're. This is exactly why we're here, is we've been trying to avoid the messy and the overwhelming and the. So now that we're finally facing it, it means you're doing the right work.

Yeah, that's a great word. If it feels messy and a little overwhelming, it's probably because it's working and we're getting somewhere. Yeah. That's a sign, too, of momentum means change, and change means friction, and friction doesn't feel good, but it's a sign of movement. So to keep leaning in. So in that same vein, Kelly, we know that this process, surrendering to the process, the messiness, this is often a long term commitment. What steps or practices do you suggest for people to stay focused and committed when the road gets tough and maybe especially when it's lasting longer than they thought it would, they're like, I thought I'd be better by now. How do you encourage them? What steps can they take to stay focused and not lose hope?

Community, community, community. You know, just like Mike said, as a leader, we can share. Like, this is what I did, this is this, this is where I am. I'm 10 years in on this journey and I'm still doing hard work. You know, being able to communicate when it is feeling like this is a really long process. If you communicate that, especially in the group setting, I think about like month 7ish, usually people are like, this is the seventh inning stretch and I'm feeling like this is a long journey. But when you voice that in your group, somebody else is going to say the same thing and then you're able to encourage each other to just keep pressing forward. It just never fails. But you know, when you get into year two or year three or year seven or eight, keeping in that community of other people that are doing it too, that's where you get like that iron sharpens, iron effect, where you guys are, are walking it together and, and you know, like, okay, I'm not the only one. Just like in the beginning, I'm not alone in this beginning. And all throughout that journey, keeping that community of people that know what you're walking through. The other day in a, in one of our online meetings, Stuart showed like this five year plan of different things to do. You know, going through seven pillars and compassionate warrior and Genesis process and all of the things. And Bob Hecker, one of our other leaders, looked at it, he's like, wow, that's a lot of work. I can't believe that we've done that. And, and, but it is, but it's beautiful. And as you, you see somebody else is walking through that and that's their trajectory. And you know, granted, it might be a different study after whatever, but it takes, it's a long journey. Like I said, it's a marathon, not a sprint. So staying in community with people that understand and can encourage you when it starts to get long, I think is key.

Yeah, the journey's two steps forward, one step back. And I love what Heather Kolbar, resident brain wizard, says, it's about progress, not Perfection. And I think as you go through this process, you begin to realize I am a flawed human. I will be a flawed human until I get to eternity. And this is a journey that I just have to keep pursuing. And I think that's one of the reasons that, you know, I encourage everybody, once they go through pillars and start to get some traction, give back, find a way to lead. Because by staying involved in a group, it allows me to be reminded on a consistent basis where I came from, where God has brought me from, and that there's still room to grow.

I remember someone gave me the metaphor, or maybe it was one of our events, of an excavator. You know, if you're clearing ground for a building, you know, there's the rocks, there's the things you can see on the surface, and you deal with those. And as you dig deeper, you wouldn't be surprised if the deeper you go, you find more rocks or things you have to deal with. And if we think of our journey that way, because I think sometimes people do get discouraged when it's like month six or year one and they're still finding something new. They feel like they're going backwards or it is that step back and there is kind of this ebb and flow to it. But that metaphor helped me see, you know, maybe rather than seeing something I'm struggling with as a sign that it's not working, just like you were saying, Kelly, as a sign that it is working. Because I'm dealing with something at a deeper level than I ever have before. And Dr. Ted is famous for always saying, you know, if we don't deal with it the first time, God has a way of bringing it back around again and again and again until we really fully deal with it. And so if you're in year one and you've done 12 months of really good work and you're like, why am I still so angry? It's not a sign that there's a problem with you. It's a sign of how deep the work is and how deep into it you're going. And so if we see that, like, why I just got to keep that, that work of digging. And there's. There's going to come breakthrough points. There's going to come moments of like, wow, what's happening now feels way better and way different. But we don't know, just like an excavator, we don't know how deep that layer goes until we start digging. And so when you're feeling it, rather than the shame message of what's wrong with me? It's that positive message of there's some really deep work happening here and I'm willing to stay in it as long as it takes because I believe that God is using it for good.

I love that. That's what Kelly said at the beginning. Approach it with curiosity rather than judgment. You know, instead of judging myself, approach it with some curiosity and go, what can I learn from this? Now that I know my story, I'm on this, this journey. What I, what else can I learn? Right?

Absolutely.

In the Foundations of Freedom series, how do you guide participants through the tension of wanting quick fixes while understanding that lasting freedom often requires a slower, more intentional approach?

Yeah, just that word phrase, quick fixes is E. It's like nails down the chalkboard on this journey because that's what, what we've been, where we've been. You know, this is what we're, we're trying to do is to have the, that long term effect and reprogram that, that kind of thinking and reprogramming takes a long time. I think about reprogramming. The only quick fix is good is in tech support. You know, I want my quick fix on my computer. But anything else, like, it's a long process and you know, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. That, that takes a long time. I, I heard this a long time ago. I'm, I'm musical and I think about this was talking about the neural pathways. A violinist who is learning a violin concerto, they usually go into their performance with no music or often I should say. And so as she's practicing and she's learning all of these fingerings and she's memorizing this entire concerto, it takes months and months of practicing until her muscle memory of her fingers and that neural pathway is so thick that this is her normal and she can go. And I, I've done this myself. Years and years and years later, you pick up that, that violin and you want to do it and you want to play that concerto. You can touch back to that place so easily. So it's like that's what we're doing is we're, we're reprogramming and it takes time, it takes constant, well, consistent practice. And yeah, I just, that's. There are no quick fixes on this, but it's so beneficial and it's just so rich. When we do do the practices and we do it consistently.

Yeah, that's a great metaphor. That in healing, we're trying to create muscle memory, if you will. So that healthy ways of responding, healthy ways of treating others and ourselves become like muscle memory. And we don't have to strain and think about the next note, but it's. It's just become our response. And that does take a lot of time. It was humbling for me early in our journey to realize that my motivation for change was to make my wife happy, because we'd gone through 10 years of me confessing a relapse and her getting upset. And I would stay really focused on change for as long as she was upset. And then once, kind of, we'd get through that, maybe a few weeks or a month, and things seem better. It wouldn't take long before I'd forget my boundaries. I'd kind of lose sight of what I was practicing. And I had to acknowledge early in recovery, like, oh, that's because my primary goal had been making her happy, not actual change. And to go to that deeper place of saying, if it's good to want to have our spouse be happy and to do things that bring joy to them and not hurt them, but if that in and of itself is our motive, it won't give us the ongoing motivation to keep doing that deeper work. And so I've said to so many guys at the beginning of group, like, hey, if you're here right now because she said go or I'm out of here, that is okay, I will take whatever motive brought you into the room. But over time, you're going to need to see that motivation switch to realizing I'm doing this for me because I actually want to change. I want to live differently. I want to experience freedom. And when that is really your motive, then. Then you're not into the quick fix. You're. You're saying, well, whatever it takes is how long it takes. And if it takes me a year or two years or 10 years, but I'm becoming a better version of myself, I'll do the work because that's what I'm after. Not just to make someone else happy, but to see change in my life, then it's worth it.

Well, I can relate to that. I initially started group trying to save my marriage, and then when the divorce went through, I began to think, okay, am I going to be a better person for the next woman that God gives me, provided he does, or am I just going to give up now? And the motive changed at that point of, like, this is for me. I want to be the man that God has called me to be. And, yeah, I could totally resonate with that.

So, Kelly, Sometimes in this journey, we see people really struggle deeply with feelings of shame, of worthlessness. And that can be a unique combination to tie to this idea of surrendering because they maybe feel like they just surrender all the time. They just give up because I'm worthless. I can't do it. How do you encourage them to trust God's process for them and to see and believe that he is committed to them and their healing, no matter how long it takes? What do you say to someone that's maybe stuck in some of that mindset?

This is a place that I, I think I made some breakthroughs this year for my struggle was really in worth for a lot of my life. And I guess this is my. My answer is I would share my story of, you know, on this process. You know, it started with my betrayal story and then quickly turned into my story of love addiction. And, you know, when I stepped into this arena of healing, just opened up this beautiful journey. Hard and painful, but really beautiful. And, you know, just 11 years in to walking the journey, I really thought I had a grasp on some things, but just. I did the PSAP training and in that training, I listened to Marnie Free's testimony and I walked out of that day and I was so highly triggered. It was insane. And I thought, how could I be triggered that, that much after all the work that I've done, you know, and. But she really hit on a lot of these, these wounds of worthiness. And it caused me to go back into some. Some counseling and in that, you know, really facing some. I thought I was going to be going back to deal with some of my childhood abuse because I had done a bit of work there, but not a lot, but I felt like I was stable and I really thought that's what I was going back to, but it really wasn't. The journey was more about like all of these messaging that I had throughout my life about my worth and my value of people not being there for me, people not supporting me, people not believing me, people leaving me, people rejecting me, and just this deep, deep sense of like, what. What is my worth? And, and in that it was. It was just this beautiful journey of like God stepping in and speaking over me, who I was in him, like really solidifying my identity in him. And. And a big piece of it came. I. I put this in my. The blog that I. The last blog that I wrote. But it was so powerful. This counselor said to me, after sharing some of these things, it's no wonder. It's no wonder this is where you were. And that was so freeing for me because I felt so seen and so, like, valued, like final. Somebody sees what happened and. And that just tended to my little Kelly heart so well. And so I don't know. I don't even know what the question is at this point, but, like, just this journey of really.

That.

That worth and that shame that we feel, there's a source of it, and this journey is so worth taking to go in and find it and deal with it and put it to rest once and for all. So I don't know if that made any sense, but that's where I went.

That was good. You know, I think so many of us have wounds that lead us to believe we're not worthy, we're unlovable. We don't. We just aren't good enough. And there's some shame around. I guess I can also just speak for my own. My own situation. There's a weakness in admitting that. And when I went to that first group, you know, at a point, there was enough pain there that I'm like, I'm just going to bear everything and let the chips fall where they may and began to admit those weaknesses and those areas of shame in my life. And when those men didn't reject me, which is what I expected, that led me to have a better understanding of God's grace. You know, Ted talks about a radical encounter with God's grace. And it was in that space that I began to go, these men know me. They still love me, which I have a hard time believing. But then that began to grow into, God loves me, too. And then the next step was, my worth doesn't come from whether these men love me. It comes from whether God loves me and who I am in Him. You know, I always tell people in group, the goal is, yeah, there's some. We're clinically based, clinically informed, biblically based. But this really is the seven pillars. Trailing beyond is about our identity, who we are. And once we discover who that is, and we know that God loves us, that he loves us, that he loves us, and we can't escape that love, then that lie that we believed about being unworthy or not enough begins to dissolve.

Yeah, I think what you're both hitting on is to understand it's really difficult to surrender to anything when we believe we're worthless or unworthy, because then the fear is that we will be treated like we deserve. If I surrender to you and I'm worthless, you're going to treat me like I'm worthless and Part of our healing and recovery is to learn that God sees us as truly valuable. I think one of my aha moments in recovery was recognizing that I thought God saw me as just an amplified version of how I saw me, that we both agreed with my assessment. He just knew it even better than I did because he was all knowing and realizing that there is like a reality of God that is totally separate from me and that his value and assessment of me are coming from completely different angles than what I perceive was so freeing to know that, oh, that there is value assigned to me by God, not by anything I have done. And I knew all that. I knew the right verses, I preached them, but to actually experience them at that deep heart level of knowing, like, oh, I have value and worth. Because then if you truly know that in a deep place, then surrendering to God who knows you and values you that way, or believing that others will see your value, surrendering to a process, you know, being vulnerable to a group now becomes different because there's not that fear of, well, I'm going to be treated like I deserve because this is who I am. So I think you're just echoing how important it is that we recognize those fears and where a sense of worthlessness or shame might be driving our own identity and keeping us from the kind of surrender that actually would set us free.

Thanks for making that connection. That was good. Kelly, what encouragement can you offer those who feel like they've already tried to surrender and failed, or who are unsure they can fully let go of past hurts? And when I read this question, I think about the betrayed spouse in particular, who is just really going, I have tried to forgive him. I don't trust him. I don't know if that was where the intention was.

I can't trust anyone. How do I surrender to any process?

Right.

Such a hard reality. I think that's what makes group such a beautiful journey, is you're in this room with, well, the virtual room, or maybe in your church in a room, but with these other women that have experienced something similar. And believe it or not, there can be some tension between the women in that group because they are all coming with wounds and like, I can't trust him. And likely there's somebody, you know other stories of betrayal in their lives. And so learning to have that dynamic in your group and learning to trust in your group is as, in my opinion, as much of the journey as it is in the healing from the betrayal trauma. I think learning to navigate those relationships that can be challenging is such a Valuable piece of the group experience, but learning to, to figure out can I trust again, how do I lay this down? You know, I, again, I think about my own journey. I, I didn't get the, the restored marriage. I didn't even really get an apology. I have several really deep betrayal wounds from other people in my life. And I. While there was a series of. A few years where there were all of these betrayals which ended in my, the divorce from my ex husband. And, and in that, the lesson that I really learned was like, what can, what can man do to me? You know, I have all of this pain and I'm not trying to over spiritualize this. I have all of this pain, but there's, there's a greater level of, of forgiveness and unforgiveness than, than what I can. I guess maybe that's the wrong word, not unforgiveness. I can choose to forgive or I can choose not to forgive. And if I don't forgive that, that only affects me in the process. And as, as we're walking this journey, like how do we, how do we let go of some of that stuff when maybe there wasn't reconciliation, Maybe there, maybe there is, but I just don't trust it yet. It's all part of that letting go and trusting the process of him. When you see him engaging his recovery and you see him doing the work and you see him following his recovery action plan, you have the tools to know whether or not you can trust him that, that going forward journey. So I, I just think there's, there's just tangible things that you learn on the journey, those tools and being able to utilize them in a way that, that gives you that confidence. But it begins with gaining your own confidence and like your feelings. What we kind of started this, this conversation with letting go of managing his addiction, letting go of managing the household, because you're the one that's kind of has to be in control because he's not showing up. So trusting yourself, trusting once again your feelings, what you know to be true, and then being able to utilize those tools along the way, you may, you may not have. It might take a while. It might really take a while. And every journey is so different. It depends on where he's at. But I, I just say keep, keep doing the work, keep showing up, keep digging in. Maybe there are things from your past that are, are even creating some places of just vulnerability that you need to, to, to lean into in order to walk that journey. So there's just so many layers to it. Always, always, always. I say, if trust is really one of those things where you're stuck is to make sure that you're getting some outside, one on one counseling to understand the depth of where that comes from.

Yeah, yeah. It makes me think of the man that encountered Jesus, who had the son who was demon possessed. And he asked if Jesus could heal him. And Jesus said, well, anything is possible for he who believes. And the man gives that great response, says, I do believe and help me to overcome my unbelief. He's like, I believe and I don't. And I think Jesus heard that and was like, I can work with that. And he healed the boy. And so in recovery, I think it's okay and even healthy to come to a group or a counselor and say, I'm trying really hard to trust the process, but I really don't do well with trust because I've been hurt a lot. Like that's just a really honest, healthy place to be. So I'm doing my best to trust. I'm doing my best to surrender to God, to surrender my will, to surrender control. And I'm acknowledging I have a really hard time ever surrendering because I really like control and this is really hard for me and just kind of owning both of those. I think God, through our group and through our counselor can go, I can work with that. If you're going to do what you can to keep trusting the process and learning to trust others, I can understand there's reasons that will be hard and that you might really wrestle with trust, but if you acknowledge it, we can work with it. So I would say don't let your past hurt or the ways people have let you down, or you've maybe tried a process that didn't work to keep you from trying again. It's okay to go into it and say I'm leery, but based on what I've heard and seen, I'm willing to give it my best and then see what God does from there.

I feel like this is a really good spot to mention our counseling, our clinical process, because I think we do something that's very special, unique, and kind of terrifying all at the same time. In that as the couples come in and work with our clinicians, the betrayer oftentimes will need to take lie detector tests on a regular basis to help re establish that trust so that the wife doesn't feel like she needs to monitor his behavior, check his phone, follow him everywhere. She knows that in 90 days she's going to find out what's happening. But during that time, she can kind of let her guard down and try to do her work. Entrusting, surrendering to the process and watching his behavior to see that he's doing what he's supposed to be doing.

Yeah, well, Kelly, this has been such a powerful conversation. So many good tidbits throughout. But what is, as we wrap up today, what is one key message that you hope people will take away about surrendering to the process so that they might experience freedom in Christ?

I think about, like I've said a couple times, like, this is a marathon, not a sprint. And like this, this is so congruent with our journey of sanctification. You know, like, keep, keep on pressing on to finish the race. You know, the. This journey of recovery and healing. Like, keep moving forward and keep fixing your eyes. I. I love. I have this picture. It's like your windshield is much larger than your rear view mirror. You know, there, there are a lot of times where we have to look in that rear view mirror and deal with that big, ugly monster with the machete that's chasing after us. We got to figure out how to get rid of him. And, you know, so there's time that we have to look in that rear view mirror. But there's so much more ahead of us. You know, if we only focus on the rear view mirror, we're going to run into stuff. It's not going to be good. So, like, that. That windshield is so much bigger. And, and when we focus and we fix our eyes on Jesus, so many scripture come to my mind about finishing the race and endurance and perseverance and all of the things, you know, so that's. That is my encouragement is just like, keep your eyes fixed on what's ahead. There's so much beauty ahead. Yeah, we gotta deal with that stuff, the big hairy monster. But let's just keep pushing on and, you know, run it. Run the race, run it well. And, you know, we all want to hear that. Well done.

Yeah, that's. That's beautiful. I love that. Kelly, this conversation has been such a great reminder that surrendering to the healing process is a journey of trust, vulnerability, and patience. And embracing God's timing and letting go of the need for quick fixes are essential for lasting freedom. But ultimately surrendering to the process leads to true freedom in Christ. And Kelly, your message and our conversation today has been one of hope and encouragement for everybody. So thank you for the ways that you lean in and for sharing from your own heart and from your story today. And yeah, just really appreciated having you as a guest today. Thanks Kelly.

Appreciate you.

Thanks guys.

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