421 - The Battlefield For The Mind

Foreign.

Hello there, good listener. I'm your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is episode 421, and here joining me as my co host for most of this series is Mr. John Beguman. Welcome back, John. Good to see you again.

Thanks so much. This was such a fun conversation. I'm. I learned a lot. I'm like, okay, there's so much more.

Yes. We are nearing the end of our Foundations of Freedom series. This is part five of six. Those that have been listening for all of them know that for part two, I had Mike Maxwell as a co host. And then in the magic world that is production and the timing of when we record, we, we lost him due to some sickness and voice issues. So John jumped in.

He's alive. Yeah. Right. We lost him as a host.

Good point. All these people writing it like we didn't have it. Sorry, Mike. We love you, but yeah, his voice was not up for recording these episodes. Yeah, John said he's in. And I'm so glad we got to have today's conversation because the fifth foundation of freedom is all about the battlefield for the mind. What can listeners expect to take out of this great conversation we had today with Heather Kolb?

Well, I think Heather always brings such a level of expertise to this with her background as a professor in criminology and just her wealth of wisdom. But today I was really encouraged by her own vulnerability. So if you guys have heard maybe things about the brain before from Heather, I would just say stay tuned. There is more. And Heather's own story, I think, shapes so much of how she's learned about this and why she cares about this and the gift that she gets to be to so many people.

Yeah, she's passionate about it because she's lived it. And then she's also learned a lot about it. You know, we've joked that she's a bit of a smarty pants. So if some of you listening are not big, you know, science nerds or the brain science, you start to gloss over a little bit and you hear Heather use a word like amygdala and you're like, oh, my goodness, don't worry. There's just a little bit of science but a whole lot of understanding. And she makes it very practical and relatable. And I know you're going to get a ton out of this because it really is about the battlefield of the mind. So a bit more about Heather for those that may be new to her. She is our Associate Director of Product Development and also a neuroscience professional for Pure Desire Ministries. She has a bachelor's in psychology and a master's in Criminal Behavior and is a certified Pastoral Sex Addiction professional. She has been trained in the multidimensional Partner trauma model through AppSats and worked several years as a college professor prior to joining the Pure Desire team. She is a speaker and contributing author to several resources including Digital Natives, Raising an Online Generation and Managing Love, Sex, and Relationships. And here now is part 5 of 6 on our foundations of Freedom series with Heather Kolb on the battlefield for the mind. Heather Kolb, as always, good to have you. Welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you. It's nice to be here today.

Yeah. I'm excited about today's topic because I feel like we are landing in your wheelhouse. I mean, you're good at a lot of things, but when we start talking about the mind and the brain and how they heal and transform, I feel like we're really in your sweet spot.

Nice. I'm excited about that.

Yeah. This is the fifth part in the series. So we've been building this foundation, and today is all about the mind and the brain, which of course we know are connected. That's all in our head, literally. So we've been exploring core elements of healing, and the mind is a big one. So what do we mean when we say the battlefield is in the mind or the battlefield for the mind, maybe, particularly from a neuroscience perspective?

Yeah, I really like this question because it is tapping into our brain and how our brain functions, but even more so our mind, which is cognitively how we process our entire life experiences. And so one of the things that comes into play with this is just the realization that a lot of times, especially in the environment in which we work, there's a lot of pain and shame and trauma. And those kind of things impact our mind, impact the way we perceive our world, impact the choices that we make. And so when I think about the phrase the battlefield for the mind, I'm reminded that our brain is, yes, capable of great change. Right. Because of neuroplasticity and our brain's ability to change and grow and adapt and all of those things that we need it to do. But even cognitively, to have the awareness that if my whole entire life experience lives in my brain, then what choice am I going to make? That am I going to choose to live out of my pain and shame and shame and trauma, or am I going to choose something different? Am I going to choose the process of renewing the mind? Because that's really the battle right when we talk about it in this context, is being able to undo, so to speak, or rewire, renew our mind so that we can continue to live in health. And so for me, that's what that battlefield is all about.

So good. Heather. And it makes me think. Nick. When I first got into recovery, I was in Dallas, Texas. I was going through an online group that the year was 2020, right before COVID had hit. And I had a friend move down into my apartment with me from college. He got a part time job and it was just this really unique kind of three month window before the world shut down and we moved back. And one of the first things I did as I was getting into my group and starting recovery was literally get radically honest every single night with him. Which was really helpful because one of the ruts in my brain was that of masturbation use before bed. As in, this was a self soothing coping behavior that I had convinced myself I need this in order to go to sleep. Which of course wasn't true at all. It was just the pattern that my brain had gotten stuck in. And I hear you saying the brain can have such an impact on our lives. Of course that makes so much sense. And it was in this place that I got to replace this behavior, this destructive behavior, because it had become dominant of masturbation use before bed with radical honesty. Me recounting my day with this guy that was now in the other bed across the room from me and being radically honest, simply saying, like, hey, like I saw this lady today and I was tempted to take from her image, I was tempted to lust after her. And I don't want to do that. Like, that's not who I want to continue to be as a man. And as I continue to follow Jesus and just getting to unburden myself and beginning to again move away from isolation to right connection with others. And I just think about, I really think those first three months of confessing literally nightly with this guy that moved into my room, also the kindness of God, like the place of such great pattern, unfortunately destructive pattern in bed, alone at night. God literally brought somebody to be with me in the first three months of recovery, to be in my room, the place where so much of this had happened, like I was quite literally no longer alone.

Oh, the joy of roommates, right?

Oh, gosh.

I think of Romans 12, verse 2 that says to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. And unfortunately, I think for too many of us in our Christian heritage, we've thought of the mind as kind of this disconnected sense of self that maybe lives, I don't know, in our heart or our chest. But when we're talking about the mind, we are literally referring to functionings of our brain that have been shaped by patterns of thinking. And we know that the thinking leads to patterns of behaving. And so when we're in recovery, we are looking at, I need to stop this behavior, I need to change that behavior, not do that anymore. But we will ultimately act in alignment with how we think. And so if our thinking is out of alignment, whether it's just how we view the behavior, like pornography use itself, or maybe deeper core beliefs about our value, worth, and identity that shape our conscious thoughts, ultimately our thoughts and behaviors are going to line up because our brain wants that synchronization between the two. And we can't live for long in a disunity between the two. Or our brain will either move the behaviors in the direction of what it's thinking, or we change the way we think. And so, so much what we talk about in the pure desire group process is really identifying what's your thinking, where is it coming from, and what patterns have existed there that may be working against you in recovery. And then, most importantly, how do we reshape and relearn those so that we can be transformed by the renewing of the mind? And although I know we'll get more into what is the renewing of the mind in this session here, in this.

Episode, Saint Heather, to that point, how does the brain process sexual brokenness or trauma? And how does understanding that really help us move towards real change?

Yeah, that's a great question. So a lot of times when we're talking about the brain, that when we experience any type of trauma, because a lot of times our woundedness and our sexual behaviors, if they're unhealthy, they come from a place of trauma. But our trauma basically lives in our limbic system. So you have the amygdala, which is all about emotion, and you have the hippocampus, which is all about memory formation. And those two things working together to basically capture these really painful experiences that we've had, store them in our mind. Because, again, our limbic system is really all about survival and predictability. Right. And because our brain wants to always do what it thinks we need to protect us. And so it's. It's those kind of things that live in our brain. And so. And that's why. And it's to protect us. And so that's why sometimes, you know, you might not be able to think of what you were doing last week, but you can remember things that happened 30 years ago as if they just happened. And it's because in that instance, your brain was capturing all of this really great, helpful information to help to protect you and to keep you safe from whatever the threat was in your environment. So then when it comes to understanding that, you know, why it is we do what we do or why it is that we maybe are triggered in a specific way or something in an instant will bring us to tears and we don't know why. It's because information is stored in our brain. And the process of healing really is the process of going back into those memories and recognizing what really was happening in those times, being able to process it, hopefully with a fully developed adult brain so that you can make sense of what happened, that you can even sometimes come to a resolve about it in order to stop living in that state. Does that make sense? So I think that that's part of the healing process.

Yeah, it's an invitation that we're going to go deeper beyond behavior modification, understanding the why. And it's really helpful to recognize there is a part of our brain that does not think of it like sexual brokenness. I think in my entry point to recovery, I was really struggling with that of, why am I doing this thing? I don't want to do that. I think of as wrong, as sinful, harmful to my marriage, you know, not healthy in my. I keep doing it. And I remember in that first year with counseling and group understanding, the part of my brain that was wired, and this is God's creation of our brain, was wired to seek out pleasure and avoid pain. And that was an amoral part of my thinking process that was not judging, like, is this good? Is it wrong? It was just saying that feels good. And even in acting out behaviors like pornography and masturbation, that part of my brain is going, this is great. This is amazing. And my brain had been designed by God to feel that. And so if I only look at it as a moral problem, yeah, I feel really stuck. But if I can recognize, oh, a part of my brain has been designed to like this and then to remember what feels good and even to set me up to go back to the places that feel good, I now begin to recognize there is a system at play here. And if I'm just trying to, you know, reject the evil and make that moral choice. But I'm going to miss this whole other component of what's physically happened in my brain that remembers a source of pleasure and does not judge it on the moral character that another part of my brain does. And I know all that can be explained in the actual parts of the brain. But that was my simple understanding that first year of going, oh, there's actually a part of my brain that was wired this way and is kind of working against me. And if I'm not aware of that, I'll be blind to it. And at the same time, if I am aware of it, I can work in conjunction with, with my brain because it does want to feel good and I can come up with other behaviors or patterns that will replace that desire or that method of trying to feel good.

And Heather, I love that the impact on the brain isn't just for negative moments. Like it can also be. I think beauty and pain are so imprinted on our brain. I remember you'd given me some slides to present on the brain to a general audience. And that night at this church just in southern Oregon, I remember saying, who here remembers the best Christmas present they ever got? And there's like some 70 plus year old man who's like, a horse. I got a horse when I was 8. And it's just like, think about that. This dude is in his 70s and he's reminded he was taken back to a Christmas over 60 years ago. And he is right there in the moment of that childhood joy, that hippocampus, right? The memory associated with the amygdala, the feeling. And I just, I was like, man, that's so beautiful. And so whether it's beauty or pain, our brain remembers those. We get so stuck sometimes. And unfortunately in the work we do, we often are unpacking or processing painful moments of like, oh, when I was six and that uncle or that aunt did something to me, right? Whether that's abuse or an exposure moment. I feel like so often I could ask, you know, the young adult that I'm meeting with for coffee, when were you exposed to porn? And instantly they're right back to that memory in the office, seated in the chair, looking at, you know, their dad's computer or laptop, whatever it might be, they're right back to that moment. To your point, Nick, they couldn't tell me what they had for dinner last night, but they're right back to that moment. And something I found to be so insightful is that kids are really good observers, but not often good interpreters. And I think what we get to do in pure desire groups as guys get in is not only help them see those moments, but. But to offer them reinterpretation of what happened to you wasn't okay. Because to your point, Nick, you're like, that was just a part of my story. That's just simply how I thought it was supposed to be. And it's in making sense of those stories that I think we can help and begin undoing some of the power or the impact that painful moments had.

Yeah, that's a great point.

Well, that really leads directly into the next question, which is that the battle in our mind is normally driven by false core beliefs from our past. So why do these past old messages have such power over our current behaviors and ways of thinking?

So it's definitely tied to our past experiences, what we can remember that happened in those experiences, and primarily how it made us feel in those instances. Because it's those moments that create the messages that we hear in our head that say, I'm not good enough. I will. I'm not lovable. I'm not worthy. All of the messages that we continue to replay over and over. And the other thing that our brain does because it says, this was painful, this was hurtful, we need to make sure that we don't ever feel this way again.

Back to the survival system.

Exactly right. And so then it's almost as though that becomes a filter of what we experience that is always searching to make sure that we never feel that way again. And it's interesting because the way that we end up internalizing those messages and almost to the point where we convince ourselves that this is true about us, we don't look for other messages. We don't look for anything else that would be contrary to. To what we believe about ourselves. And even the way that somebody might say, oh, I think that you're all of these really great, amazing things. And the minute that we hear that, our brain says, they don't really know.

You because we've heard that other message for so long. It's normal to us, right?

Yeah. It becomes the tape that plays over and over and over and over again. And so I think that that is definitely part of the struggle. One of the things that is extremely profound in this whole process of healing is that the minute that we start saying those things out loud to another person that we're willing to share these really deep, painful, intimate parts of our story, those messages, they lose their power over us. Because it isn't something that now we're keeping inside. Nobody else gets to know this about us that we've decided that, you know what, I don't like feeling this way. I don't like hearing that message and, and I'm going to share this with somebody. And the more that we share our story, the less power it has over us. Yeah, it's like when you hear somebody for the first time they share their story and they're crying and you know, but then even three years later they can share the exact story, but they've shared it so much. And the healing that that's brought to them and the healing that it's done to their mind and their brain, it still can be kind of painful. But they're not going to weep the way that they did the first time they shared their story.

Just makes me so excited. I mean I love story work and I love the way it collides with the brain. And just the idea of that as we share our story and we're held by the face of others, like it doesn't have that impact. I think of there's a story specifically for me in junior high that had to do deal with sexuality and being called out by a principal and friends seeing this moment and feeling so deeply humiliated. And some of the lies that were associated that moment with me were I was sexually perverted or I was sexually bad or I was sexually broken. Just cementing some of these. And Nick, I think about an experience. This was maybe a year ago now, we were on a road trip together and I'm like, Nick, like there's a. This story is holding weight for me and I process it before but like I just think there's more here. And I just invited Nick to hold this story from my childhood and oh my goodness, the perspective you offered of like that thing that the principal said to you in that moment, that wasn't true, that's a lie. And so even just getting to invite other people in to shape to re speak to rewrite some of our own stories, not only does it lessen the power that it holds over us, but again I think it actually allows us to mature because some of our like we get stuck in some of those younger stories. And I might be 27 now, but I come to that story with Nick as if I'm a 12 year old.

You get kind of stuck there.

I was so stuck there. And to hear your words, to reshape and give me confidence, context of that lessens the power of it and invites me back to identity. John, that's not who you are. Like that moment doesn't define You?

Yeah. I think for a lot of men and women in recovery, it's an opportunity to diminish the shame they're feeling. Because again, in my story, I felt like, what's wrong with me? Why would I do these things? There must be something broken or I'm just. I'm just guilty or wrong or sinful or whatever. And then when you recognize some of these inherent needs we all have, you know, Dr. Kurt Thompson talks a lot about how the human brain is designed to feel safe, soothed, seen and secure. And we begin to have those needs, like from the moment of birth. And not because we tried to have those or we're needy. No, it's because we're human. And so if at 4 or 5 years old, we didn't feel seen, which is very much my story of four siblings within four and a half years and my mom being overwhelmed, stressed and tired, and I'm a middle child, my message was, you're not seen, you're not valued. And that might be confusing at first for some is like, well, wait a minute then. Did you act out sexually at 4 or 5? It's like, well, no, that was not the connection then. But that was the pattern in my thinking that at like 14 and 15, when I was in sports and not, you know, the all Star, that I wanted to be that feeling of, I'm not seen, I'm not good enough. And when I was then getting involved in sexual activities of acting out, you know, with pornography or lust or fantasy, those feelings did start to get fused of that feeling of I'm not seen, I'm not good enough. But then I act out in fantasy, and for that moment of time, I feel seen and awesome. And even though it's a sinful behavior, that part of my brain is now getting fused to that memory. And then 20 years later, I could still be in that place that when I get triggered of feeling like I'm not being seen or valued, my brain goes, oh, we know how to fix that. Because this is what we started doing at 13, 14, 15. And when I saw that pattern, it again just diminished that shame of it's not because there's something wrong with me. It's because I grew up in a broken world and there are sinful people and we're all impacted by it. This is just what happened along the way in my story. And now I can work to unravel the power that has in my story, in my present moment.

Yeah, it's so good, it makes me think that just to finish that story of like, the lie that I believed in that moment was that I was sexually broken. The reality was I was just a sexual middle schooler hitting puberty that didn't know any better. And what I needed was to be trained and guided, not shamed and punished in that moment. But that shame and that punishing led me to believe the lie that I was humiliated or rejected or always outcast. And to your point, well, pornography then offered the exact opposites. Acceptance. You know, this belonging, this love, this validation. Even if it was fake and false, some of those needs were being met. Heather, that just kind of moves us to the next question of. I think sometimes we. We can just believe, like, I'm just wired this way, like I'm just broken at a thought level or an action level, or again, sexual, sexually, I'm broken. But can you help understand what's the difference between wiring and training the brain? And how can we actually rewire the brain over time that leads to healing.

Yeah. So there is a big difference between wired. When people say, well, I'm just wired this way. I'm just wired to lust after women. I'm just wired to want to have sex all the time. I'm just wired. And I think that that is confusing to people. Your example, your story, Nick, that you just told is a perfect way to describe how we actually end up training our brain to respond to how we're feeling in a specific way. And when it comes to how our brain is wired, there are some very specific things that all human beings, or the majority of human beings have at birth, but the majority of what we learn to do is. Is really learned behavior. How did we learn to process our emotions? How did we learn to handle disappointment? How did we learn to even contain our excitement? Right. If you were that child who has always just had so many big feelings and everything was so amazing and. But you had a parent who wasn't that way or didn't recognize that as being this really great, beautiful thing. Then a lot of times that enthusiasm then maybe was squelch. And so it really is being able to realize that, yes, there are parts of my brain that are definitely wired this way. But if you look at it in the sense that over time we train our brains to respond a certain way to certain stimuli. So if it's that I'm feeling disappointed, well, I don't want to feel disappointed. And so what can I do to make myself feel better? That's just a normal scenario. And then what do we choose to make ourselves feel better? If you look at that in the context even as Nick, you were saying that at 4 or 5 years old, what am I going to do to make myself feel better? Well, I'm going to go outside and play on the swing set because I like to be outside. But that's not the response that a 15 year old is going to have or a 20 year old or a 25 year old. And so that's where we see that in this situation, we train our brain to do this, but over time, and especially if we continue to experience more disappointment or more pain or shame or trauma, then the two, the things that we choose to train our brain to do or train our mind to do are going to look different. So the same is true when we enter the healing process, right? So it really is a matter of not only being able to recognize that these are the things that even if it was, that I have this unmet legitimate need, right? Because we all have legitimate needs. But my need wasn't met as a child. And so I'm going to train my brain to do this. The first thing is always to recognize what is that need? Is that need, Is it connection? Is it unconditional love? What is that legitimate need? And then to look at how it is that it, how does it make me feel when that need is not being met? Because a lot of times that's just giving you a picture of our thoughts and our feelings then contribute to our behavior and then what am I doing? The process is the same when it comes to healing. It's just that now that we have this level of awareness and we know what is it, that if this is what my brain wants, is this need to be met, here are all of my options to have that need met in a really healthy way.

The way I think of it, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, Heather, because you understand the brain much better than I do, but that a lot of our wiring, so to speak, what we're born with really is God given. It's God created because we were wired for sexual activity. We were created in the image of God as sexual beings. We were wired for arousal. And I don't just mean sexual arousal. I mean all kinds of arousal that our brain gets alerted, turned on to things. Pay attention to this. We, we were wired for connection. Like all these wirings are there, but in some ways they're a little bit like a blank canvas or an empty container that what gets put into them or on them will very much dictate where that wiring starts to go. And I know you Know, Patrick Carnes in his research talked about a lot of this, like, preconditions of addiction that we. We live in a very addictive society. We have a fairly sexually permissive culture. We might have grown up in a family of origin that either practice shame and neglect around sexuality, or there were forms of abuse and overt sexuality that brain wasn't ready for. So all these experiences we have from the conversations that did or didn't happen in the home, the kind of things that were on the television screen and how that was reacted to, the ways we heard our parents talk, what happened with friends at school, like, all of that in my mind is taking that wiring that is good and part of our human creation and is now training it towards ways of flowing. And much of that can be towards negative and unhealthy things, even if we didn't choose it. Because as you've said so often in our seminars, Heather, the neurons that fire together wire together. And if something happened to me in an abusive experience that also created some elements of pleasure, I might have this wiring that now seeks out both pain and pleasure in a sexual experience. But it's all this training that took place. And again, I think that gives me tremendous hope because it's like, oh, if fundamentally there is some wiring that God gave me as a sexual being that is good. Part of our healing is to rediscover what's that goodness? What is the purpose of it, as you were saying? And then what does it look like to train my brain for, you know, connection? It's like in my story, a lot of my issues as a teenager and then young adult were around simply the issue of boredom and a lack of activity. I was very much a performer and go be involved in everything. And when there was nothing going on, there was this restlessness of what do I do? And so often in teenage years, that restlessness turned towards sexually acting out. Well, that's a feeling and emotion that I took into adulthood. And that was what my brain knew to do. And so I could identify that then and train like, oh, when there's nothing to do, I can actually give myself permission to take a nap. That resting is not unscriptural or unbiblical. I can pursue a friendship. I can engage in an activity or hobby that I've discovered. The feeling can be retrained. And then my brain actually begins to long for that because the training is different. So that gives me hope if. If we do have a mindset. So this is just the way I'm wired. Maybe if we look Back far enough, we'd see, well, no, underneath, the wiring is actually good and of God, but very, very early, even before I chose it as a young child, that training may have begun that now it feels so familiar in my story that I think of it just as wiring. But really it's not really. It's that I've been trained. And as we say, the good news is if your brain has been trained, it can be retrained.

Praise God for that. I think of the simple messaging regarding my sexuality, of how I was trained. That was unfortunate and has been retrained in this process for me was that sexuality was bad and that I needed to run away from it, I needed to battle it. And now please hear me say, of course fleeing sexual temptation is scriptural. I'm not against that. But I think Rodney's. Who? Rodney Wright, one of our co workers here at Peer Desire, offered me such a helpful paradigm kick of John, the next time you're sexually aroused, thank God for the ability. I'm like, what? I can't thank God for this ability. I'm single and I don't have any place to put this ability right now. Rodney, you don't understand. And he's saying, no, no, no. Your body is good and sexuality is a good gift from God. Yes, intended for the marriage covenant. But, John, your body isn't bad. And invite God into this moment. He wants to partner with you to what? To retrain your brain. I think of Ephesians, right? This language of putting off and putting on. And so now, in the face of sexual arousal or temptation, I am not moving towards pornography or masturbation. A part of my retraining in my first year of group was making a phone call. I'm now triggered or feeling like I want to use a destructive behavior. I know what I really need is connection. How do I go after the right thing? So stimulus, not down the wrong path, but now into the right path. And I'm calling a friend saying, it's hard to remember truth right now because I'm limbically locked. Not thinking of my prefrontal cortex right here. Can you help me remember truth? Because it's really hard for me to remember it right now. And now I'm being soothed and comforted and connected in right relationship, not in a screen with pornography. In a moment of isolation. That was so transformative for me. Again, retraining, putting off and putting on right behavior. And it's not just behavior management, right? It's about beliefs. Somewhere in me, I believe that I was worthy of love and worthy of connection with another human. And at a time I didn't believe that was true. I believed that this is how I was and I was always going to be worthless and duplicitous and hidden and apart from God and apart from others. And so there's so much at work here, but retraining is, thank you Lord. It has been a gift in my journey.

So we've talked around this topic a little bit, Heather, but let's dive in more specifically to the topic of shame. What role does shame play in the brain's response system and how does this keep people stuck in unhealthy patterns?

So I think that shame is one of those things that, I mean we talk about it a lot at pure desire, but it seems like shame has an emotional component to it that really does live in the limbic system. And a lot of times I know that I didn't know this before reading research about it, but that they do studies, they, whoever they is, do studies on even children and they can identify a shame response in an 18 month old child. Which is really telling about the way that that shame just becomes embedded into our system. How that happens exactly, I don't even know except for that I. Except for knowing that it comes from the environment that we're in which we're raised. And so even I've talked with parents about this, about how you, you know, when you have this new baby and they are the cutest thing ever and you hold them and you love on them and you talk to them in this really high pitched voice and that, that goes on for maybe 10 months to a year. And then they mobile and your language change changes and you start to say no, don't touch that, don't do that, don't. And so they start to hear this more negative language, very different than what they've experienced their whole entire life. But I think that that in and of itself creates shame sometimes in children, not intentionally because as parents, as parents.

It'S sometimes a fear response, Right. I see my infant toddler, not infant, my toddler about to touch a candle, right? I'm like, oh my goodness, what are you thinking? Stop grabbing their hand. And we're just out of fear protecting them. But their brain is probably going, what did I do? What's wrong? Something happened. I'm scared. My dad is using a level of voice and facial expressions I've never seen before. Yeah. And you think about an 18 month brain trying to process that. I think shame. We'd go, well yeah, that might be what gets interpreted right.

And it is one of those things, though, that because like you said, we sometimes have to do that as a parent. But I guess the point is to just recognize that if we know that shame is something that develops in toddlers and then they carry their entire lives, it's so important as parents that we're giving our children far more positive emotions or responses, interactions that we are doing everything we can to counteract those shame messages. But I think that it does definitely live in the limbic system, live within our experiences. It's based on events that either are subconscious, maybe not fully conscious, that tell us that we're bad, that there's something that not only do we do bad things, but that we're bad at our core.

I just. As you're talking, Heather, I just wrote down four of the top shame beliefs that I believed in my journey to your point. I am bad, I'm unlovable, I'm too far gone, and I hurt others. And it's interesting, even in hearing you describe that of, you know, I wonder what childhood moments could have impressed that on me. And I know that for a time there was financial stress in my family growing up. As they were buying into the farm and taking on these big responsibilities and having glasses and braces as a kid, I felt like a financial burden. And I could see their conflict as parents. And there was even one night where I remember running to the basement and just finding a place alone and just crying and my dad coming downstairs and saying, john, what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? I was like, all I do is cost you money. Like, I don't know why you love me. Like, if all I do, I'm just a burden to you. I hurt you and I hurt others because of my own. Like, I am a burden. And it's just like, man, like, again, these moments get so stuck in us, even from potentially a young age, and. And undoing them in the context of community has been such a gift. And replacing that lie of, oh, I don't, yes, I have the capacity to hurt others. Right? There's a level of maybe reality there. But inherently, who I am, who God's made me to be, is I get to be a gift to others. Like, that's the goodness of my life. And getting to replace those shame narratives. And unfortunately, shame lives so deep. And again, shame is I'm bad. Whereas I think it's helpful to denote guilt, right, of what I've done is wrong. Because shame, guilt, and conviction, those are three unique Categories as we approach sin, as we approach recovery and healing, that sometimes can get blurry.

Yeah. Yeah. It's helpful to me to think about the ways that shame does attach to our limbic system for survival. Because if you think about it, we need other people for survival. We've got people around us that love us or are married to us or a part of our system of friendships network. And if we're carrying a belief, a shame belief that says if they knew this about me, that I really am wicked, unlovable, not good enough, you know, lustful, all these bad things that I think about myself, then the belief system goes, then they would reject me, and I would ultimately be alone. You know, in one of our conversations with Dr. Kurt Thompson, he defined anxiety as that fear of being catastrophically alone, that suddenly I have no one left and it's only me. And if that's a legitimate fear, which it is, our brains create that fear of, like, well, I don't ever want that to happen. Therefore, I have to hide and protect all these parts of me so that I don't get rejected. And what happens, though, is because they're from so far back in our history, and we've, you know, as you talked about, it's the tape that just plays over and over. It's become so familiar to us. We don't realize how those shame messages are not true, that that is not what people would do. And yes, in a marriage relationship, there may be very real hurtful consequences, but the truth is that we. I have yet. I'll say it this way. I have yet to see someone own their stuff and have everyone around them reject them. I will say I've seen it. End of marriage. Because sometimes there's behaviors that, like, you can't come back from. But in those same situations, I've seen those people have friends draw near to them, family draw near, that they find the very thing I feared most actually became the pathway to the kinds of relationships that I'd wanted all along. So if we can see that shame is maybe an ineffective survival technique that I'm really holding on to in a false way, we might get the courage to face and go, no, I need to walk through this. Because when I learn that I'm not rejected, that I'm not worthless, that I'm not unlovable, that's actually where some real life can begin.

A good friend of ours, Nick Mike, once said, everything you want is on the other side of fear. Such a simple statement. But I remember just hearing that and going, like, man, that was my recovery journey. There was this massive barrier of fear to being known, to being seen, to being loved. And it was in this place of overcoming, or I would say, God giving me the courage to being known, to being loved and being seen, and then being held by a group around me who didn't walk away. Some of those lies and those shame narratives began to change, which is so helpful. The next question just has to do about triggers, urges, and relapses and how those tie back to brain functioning. What are some tools people can use quite tangibly to help retrain their minds in the moment of temptation or urges or sexual fantasy?

Yeah, so I think one of the main things that people can do when they're faced with temptation or urges or triggers would be to be able to pause, have really an emotional awareness, be able to pause to say, how am I feeling in the moment? It falls under that name it to tame it type of a philosophy that if we really do want healing, we have to be able to name those uncomfortable feelings. And I think even, you know, like, using a faster scale can be really helpful for this. If you're in group and using it to identify how you're feeling, being able to even just stop and identify how you're feeling, sometimes even saying it out loud can be really helpful because it then starts to diminish the power it has over you. I think another thing that is really super helpful is being able to. When you're in recovery, there's a lot of different tools that that will be introduced. But I guess my most important point would be to say, practice those and practice those and practice those and practice those, because none of us know when life is going to go sideways. And the more practiced we are with our various tools, the better equipped we're going to be to kind of almost talk ourselves off the ledge more quickly and say, I know what to do. Or even for our brain to say, we've already practiced this. We know the path out of this. And to be able to put those steps into place. And then I guess the third one that is super important is having that safe community, having the people around you that are there to support. They're. They're not only support when, like you had mentioned, John, that I'm feeling this way and I could either do this or I can reach out to somebody. But they're also the people that when we have victories in our lives, when we have, you know, celebration, something to celebrate in our healing and recovery journey, that those are the people that we celebrate with. Those are the People that we bring into, you know, just having that safe community I think is so important.

One of the most valuable tools I think that is learned in group is understanding our pattern of relapse. Because there is a pattern. If we've been stuck in any kind of sexual behavior, there is a pattern. And the pattern starts long before we cross whatever line it is that we've defined as a relapse. And if we can begin to recognize that pattern and it might go something like this, that, that I, I have the emotion of feeling forgotten or overlooked. And when I experience that, I'm then led to go so surf on social media because I'm just looking for what are people doing. And when I'm on social media, I see triggering images that starts to create sexual arousal. And then that's on my mind and then I go to a next step and eventually I may end up relapsing or acting out. And if I wait until I'm on the verge of wanting to relapse or act out, I'm already fighting that pattern in my brain. And again, this was so life giving for me to see that that wasn't because I was bad or a sinner, that that's how my brain was designed to work. You know, one of the things we talk about a lot with dopamine, because that's what our brain's looking for, is the feel good chemical of dopamine. But we've also learned that dopamine is just as much the anticipation of feeling good chemical as it is the feel good chemical. And so as soon as I see anything sexually triggering dopamine starting, it's going, oh, we remember this. This feels really good. Let's go have a little more and a little more. So it helped me see that I needed to back the train up or back the process up and say, oh, the place to fight. Because of my brain system and the patterns that need to be retrained, I can't wait until I'm like on my computer and there's all these thoughts about this website and go like, and yeah, if we're there, we've got plans, we've got an escape plan, or, you know, you're not helpless, you can take some steps there. But if that's what we're waiting for, we're fighting against that pattern in our brain. So that tool of understanding what my pattern is and recognizing, oh, this feeling of restlessness, boredom, being rejected, being hurt, being unappreciated, that's a starting point for me, then we can redirect sooner. And I think that's the other tool that's so valuable is what we call the three circles tool. Where in the inner circle we've defined what's our relapse, the middle circle we've come up with what are healthy boundaries or guardrails that keep me from that middle circle, inner circle, and then the outer circle is saying, what can I do instead? Because in that pattern of relapse, if we feel, you know, forgotten or overlooked, we're going to be tempted to go towards our inner circle of relapse. But we've got guardrails that keep us from going there. And then, most importantly, we have other activities that we've defined and said, no, this is where I go instead. This is what leads me into the kind of lifestyle I want to have. And having that picture in front of you of those commitments and those three circles, I think really helps us from not continuing to go down that old pathway.

So good. I believed a lie in recovery or maybe in addiction before I got into recovery, that sexual acting out was the only place God had designed for dopamine. And I just had believed that lie that, like, if I want dopamine, as a single person who's not married, like, God has kept this good thing away from me. And the only thing to get it is this back corner, back door pathway of pornography or masturbation. And I think what was so revolutionary for me was learning about dopamine and learning that dopamine is preceded by what Risk and uncertainty. You want to know what risk and uncertainty looks like calling somebody when you're aroused? That looks like risk and uncertainty to me. And I began to see that actually, again, those two pathways I could act out or I could pursue connection. And it was in pursuing connection that I was what I was risking, and it was uncertain. I wasn't quite sure how he'd respond to me on the phone when I called him and said, all I want to do right now is look at porn. Can you tell me why I shouldn't? Because I can't remember that right now. And to your point, Heather, what am I doing? I'm saying it out loud. It's losing power over me as I'm now giving it. I'm helping. I'm handing it to somebody else. Can you hold this for me? This is pretty heavy right now. I don't know how to do this. And it was literally dripping dopamine into my system because it was risky. It felt unsafe to some regard to tell somebody else that I was tempted. But it was in that place that I found actually what safety. And I also got the thing called dopamine that I had been finding in destructive acting out behavior. I was actually now finding in risking to connect with somebody else as I was training and practicing what making a phone call looked like in the face of temptation. Which is why I tell guys all the time, call me the next time you're hard. I know that's kind of a rough statement. And they're like, wait, what? That's crazy. Like, why would you tell me to do that? I will never call you when I'm hard. But then I'll say, well, I'll give you the intimacy you're looking for. And it won't be sexual, it'll simply be into me. You see, I will give you emotional and spiritual connection because that's what you're looking for. You're not looking for a sexual high. You're just bored alone at home right now. Like, you don't need to be sexual, but what you're desiring is, right, connection and to be seen by another human being. So it's kind of a fun way to kick a paradigm and say, call me the next time you're hard.

So for single guys, we'll put John's phone number in the show notes. You can reach out. This is gonna be an interesting week for you, John. No, I, I understand for some of our listeners, that might seem like too much or especially if you're new in recovery, it's like that concept, like, I don't get this and that's okay. You know, what we're trying to unpack is that your body and your brain do have a deep connection. And we're not just bodies that are dissociated from our thinking. Like, it's all connected. And that's something I really believe that you'll find in recovery, is that it's all connected. And the ways in which our thoughts, feelings and emotions connect to deeply to our sexual struggles is why in moments where it's all kind of firing off and we're thinking about going down that old pathway, connection can be so valuable because we start to unravel that system and see, oh, underneath all of it, I'm really just looking for belonging or connection, identity, whatever the case might be. Heather, you've said that healing is a brain based process. I think most people would think of it more as like, well, no, this is a heart issue or this is a spiritual thing, but being brain based, can you share a little bit about that and maybe some Real life examples or an example of how someone's brain changed as they engaged in recovery work.

Yeah. So I can use my experience in recovery, even though eating disorder recovery. So anorexia is not technically an addiction, but it shares a lot of the same symptoms.

And food and sex, we know, have a lot of commonalities in how they. How they impact the brain.

Yes. And so when you look at even anorexia, that it thrives in isolation, that it is not about food, but usually it's about trauma and control. And it's also something that is that people continue despite consequences. And so when you look at all of those things and the way that that list even just aligns with it looks pretty familiar. It does, yeah. Very familiar. And so a lot of the things that. That. That are required in that type of treatment are really the same as what you would even see in addiction recovery. And so for me personally, I ended up going to counseling because this was something that. I know that I've talked about my story before in different arenas, but. But the more I think about it, the more I recognize how deeply broken my brain was to think that what I was doing was actually helping me when it wasn't helping me. Again, it was something that my brain. Not that I had trained my brain to do this, but my brain was responding to something that seemed familiar to it. And so when I was in an environment where I didn't have any control and I could control food, then that became kind of like my lifeline, the thing that was meeting my unmet need, whatever that was in the moment. And so got into counseling. And then after maybe four months on one, on one counseling, got into group. Group counseling was probably one of the best things that I think helped me because I could hear other people's stories and relate to that because there was so much denial in my behavior. I remember at one point, this was before I had to go to counseling, that my mom coming to me. And my mother is not like a crying type woman at all, not even sort of. And she came to me and she said. She said, I don't think you're doing very well. And I said, I'm totally fine. Okay. 35 years old, I weighed 88 pounds. And she said, I don't think you're fine. And she even started to cry. And she said, what scares me is that I think you're gonna die and there's nothing I can do to help you. Because all of her information that she had was of the same. Read your Bible more, Pray more. Are you giving this to God? Are you doing? Because that's. That's what she had been told. And so. But for me then to. Even at that moment, to be able to look at that situation and say, okay, this information is coming from my mom, who's never this way. This is the only time I've ever seen her this way in my entire life. And so I think something is wrong. And it was within a short time of that that I had to go to counseling and then went into groups. Got a bunch of tools, the same tools about emotional awareness. Let's look at your family of origin. Let's look at the way that you process your world. And. And it really was because my brain, my broken brain, had become the filter by which I was living. And it was killing me. I needed somebody else to take my perspective, run it through their healthy brain, and then give it back to me in a way that made sense. And that's what I think happens when we enter into recovery and healing. Not that I ever wanted to go into those deep, dark areas in my past or look at anything with almost like a fine tooth comb at times, but it was looking at it so that I didn't have to live this way forever, and even looking at it so that I could live, you know, that I could figure it out, that this wasn't even about food to begin with, that this was about control and be able to change those messages and rewrite that narrative, and not by myself, but with a group of other women who were there on a very similar journey, talking about their pain and shame and trauma and just in simple ways, giving life back to every single person that was in that group. And so I think that that's just kind of what it looks like when you choose it and when you're willing to go into the deep, dark areas of your life so that you don't have to live out of that anymore. So that's, again, that battle for the mind, you know, choosing that. I don't want this to be my mindset for the rest of my life, because this is not healthy. This is not helping anybody. I'm not a good mom in this condition, but just being able to step into that, heal, retrain my brain, pass on this really great information to my kids so that they could be healthy, too. And, you know, and it's just the beginning of this really amazing process.

Yeah, there's a whole seminar in that five minutes right there. I mean, praise God for your mom. Oh, my goodness. I'm so grateful for her healthy brain. That could look at your broken brain and bring perspective or clarity for you. Praise God that you thought you were valuable enough to pursue help. Like, I'm so grateful you pursued help. And now the amount of people that you get to, like, put voice to and just helpful understanding to their own journeys. And then also just for anybody who's in our audience who's navigating a food, you know, disordered eating to whatever degree, like, yeah, just thank you for sharing your story. And if that wasn't compelling enough to get into a group and the power of group, I don't know what else is. And what struck me, Heather, as I was sitting with that moment in your story, is these other women don't necessarily have fully healthy or functioning brains either. Right. They as well have been impacted to some degree. But yet the level of compassion that you guys got to hold for one another, like, I just imagine, you know, this group of wounded, I'm assuming primarily women helping other, like the wounded helping the other wounded people in the room. And actually all of you, you know, subsequently getting better. Like, it didn't even necessarily take this, this perfected person to come in here and save the day. But even just the compassion and empathy you got to hold for one another, helping each other down the path, like, if that's not what group is, I don't know what group is. So thank you for that.

Well, and for anyone that's hearing this feeling, like all this brain stuff, what we really need is deep heart change. Like, a change of heart, because that's a message we hear a lot about. I would gently push back and ask, where is the heart, Biblically speaking, thinking, Because I think we would all recognize, like, well, it's probably not this thing beating in my chest, my heart. I would argue that the most relevant body part to talk about, the biblical definition of heart, is the limbic system of the brain. Because I think of our heart as, like, where is the seat of our deeply held sense of value, worth, and identity that is being driven by our thinking, in our limbic system of experiences we've had that communicate to us who we really are. And I think that's why the Bible says so frequently, like, that idea of inviting Jesus into your heart or heart change is like, at that very deep level, at a limbic level, we need to believe that I'm not worthless, I'm not rejected, I'm not alone. I'm actually loved, valued and accepted. And in Christ and in community with other people, we can have those transforming experiences. And I think that's what I've watched as I think of the examples coming to mind is people that changed behavior, changed a way of life, not just because they knew all of these tips and tools to avoid pornography, but because at a heart level or a limbic brain level, they identified a message that said I'm worthless and replaced it by looking around a group of their peers who have all said, we're so proud of you. And that group knew all their worst stuff. And they're like, no, I'm not worthless because this group of people love me and care about me and. And through their love, I'm experiencing the love of God in ways that I never have before. I'm now experiencing lasting change. That's heart change, but it's really brain based when we think about it, really in our biology. Where is it? I'd say it's in your brain. This whole process is really in your brain.

Well said, Nick. I'm saying, just as we come to a close, Heather, if there was one thing that you wish people in recovery knew about the brain, what would that be?

It would be that your brain can change, that nothing is fixed, regardless of your age, regardless of your experiences, that our brain wants to be healthy. God gave us just the most amazing brain that is so adaptable, so plastic, if you will, so willing to change and want to be healthy, that if they're willing to engage in the process of healing, that your brain can change. It might take time, but it's so, so worth it.

The thought that comes to mind for me is that small things matter because we're either supporting the health and direction of our brain, being trained for good, or we're supporting old habits. And sometimes we get so focused on, like the big bad behavior we're trying to avoid now that we forget how those small habits like prayer, like reading my Bible, like calling a group member, like just taking deep breaths and enjoying a sunny day, like, you know, feeling the warmth on my face, hearing birds in the air, laughing with my kids, that all those little moments are just as important to recovery and support it along. And I'm not saying you can just do those and ignore all the other stuff, like small moments alone, I don't think create change, but they're a big part in conjunction with the really hard work you're doing of just supporting your brain. And so every day to look at those small things and say, what can I do today? In a simple way, to just support the direction of healing. And maybe it is before you get in your car on the way to Work. You just pause for 30 seconds and look around and like, enjoy the air and the bird, like that's moving you towards it. And we're all like, well, I could do that, but is that going to change me forever? Well, no, maybe not that one thing, but small things add up to becoming that kind of big change that we're looking for.

So. Good. I was just thinking about. We were recently in Wisconsin, Minnesota, and the headwaters of the Mississippi. It's just this little creek in northern Minnesota, but over time, just that cascading effect of all these different rivers and different streams running into it. By the time you get to the Mississippi, as in, sorry, in Louisiana. Right. The delta, like the Mississippi, is a raging river. And just to your point, Nick, small things adding up over time can create significant change. And so many people, when they interact with Pierre, die, they're like two to five years, you know, regarding the process of changing our mind or some of our behaviors. And I think that's really daunting. And I would just say I hope that those listening get to see that as really inviting because what takes time is going to last over the course of time. And this is so worth it. You're so worth it. Your brain is so worth it. Your family, your life, you know, the life that God wants you to live, even beyond that is so worth it that he's not going to do this quickly. Now he could, right? We believe in God, a big God, but also, like, if he can get it deeply into you over time, what might you get to do with that over time for the sake of others. And so, Heather, this is always like super encouraging. I think our brains are, to your point, I think you used the word masterful or magnificent like such capability in our minds. And I'm so grateful that God has given us such a powerful tool to engage life. And unfortunately, it can get stuck. And fortunately it can get unstuck. Yeah.

Yeah. So as we wrap up today's conversation, we want you to know that your brain is not broken and you are not beyond healing. Understanding how the brain processes trauma, shame and addiction gives us real tools for lasting change. You're not stuck because you're weak. You're likely stuck because your brain has been trained this way. And the incredible truth is that it can be retrained. Freedom isn't just possible. It's a brain based process and it works. And we've seen it happen over and over. And so keep leaning in, stay curious and be kind to yourself as you grow, because it does take time. But with the right tools and support, transformation truly begins in the mind. So Heather, thanks for bringing all of your thoughts, experience and expertise to the podcast today.

Yeah, thank you.

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