422 - Developing a Spiritual Growth Plan

Foreign hello there, good listener. I'm your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors and healing from betrayal trauma. Today is episode 422, and here joining me as my co host for most of this series, as listeners will have found out if they've been listening to all six of these. Joining me today is Mr. John Beguman.

It's an honor to be here. I so love having these conversations with you.

Yeah, this has been, I think, a powerful series. It's, you know, one of the things we talked about is in recovery we can kind of get used to the journey and it's something we've been, you know, you're in what, year five and I'm year 15. It's like this is familiar territory, but we really wanted to create a series and I hope this has been the case for many of you. That kind of goes back to the beginning. And if you are early in recovery, if you're just starting your first group, or if you're trying to decide if I need group, this series has been for you to understand what are some of the elemental building blocks of recovery. And so today's conversation was really leaning into that long term healing of a spiritual growth plan, of continuing to grow spiritually with God and with others. And we could think of nobody better to have on than our good friend Father Harry Flanagan, as he's known around here, one of the counseling, part of the counseling team here at Pure Desire. And today, Harry, you know, you maybe expected it's going to be a lot about, well, here's how to have spiritual discipline, here's how to have a prayer time. Today was a much deeper conversation than that. John, what did you think of today's conversation?

It is always fun to me how these conversations take shape because so much of it was like, oh, here's what spiritual disciplines or practices could look like. And basically we were like, okay, let's forget about that for a second because if we don't do the deeper work, we don't really get to engage those in healthy, accurate ways. And so a lot of this conversation is how do you break out of isolation and what's isolation versus solitude? Or how do you break out of secrecy and what's honesty and what about painful relationships and healthy relationships in the form of community? So I do think we talk a lot, a lot about spiritual practices and disciplines, but I think we define them when we talk about maybe the why and the motives more than we talk about the practicality of how it's. What's going on behind the curtain here when. When it comes to the deeper work. Yeah, yeah.

And I think that's the key, that a lifetime of spiritual growth is coming back to these core principles. So we can. We can talk about, you know, practicalities of, like, journaling and how to pray and what to pray, and we've had podcasts about those things, and there's other great tools out there in our world for those. But if we're only focused on the tools and not the heart behind it, and what am I really trying to discover with God and others, those. Those tools aren't going to service very well or honestly last very long. We're going to just get away from them and find that we slip back into old habits of doing it alone. And so I think today's conversation really takes people to the heart of spiritual growth. And I think Harry did just such a great job of doing that for us.

And I would just say, if you're getting to the end of this series of foundations of freedom, and you're like, okay, this has been good. This has been intriguing. I just feel like our phrase around here at Pure Desire is join a group. Like, if this is moving for you, if this is motivating for you, please join a group. I know that there are many people who listen to the podcast who find so much help and hope, which is beautiful. I love that.

And.

And we're going, hey, there's a deeper step here. You'll hear in the episode we talk about the idea of the wall. What is the wall? Well, stay tuned. And if you want to come to a place of addressing it and really working through it, I just believe that a group is the place to do that. Honest relationships where you get to unpack your secrets, unburden yourself of pain, and really begin to experience the healing and freedom and hope that Christ has on offer. Yeah.

Yes. Buckle up. You're in for a great conversation. For those that might not know much about Harry, here's a bit about him. Harry is a clinician here for Pure Desire and is a certified pastoral sex addiction professional. He has been with pure desire since 1993. I think, accurately, he's been associated with TED since then. Pure Desire did not exist in 1993, but here he talks about it today, that he's been a part of this ministry for 31 years. He's a licensed pastor and is helping people navigate their own healing journey. He also contributed to our resources 7 Pillars of Freedom Workbook and also Connected Building Building a bridge to Intimacy for Couples. And here now is our conversation with Harry Flanagan, the final episode of the Foundations of Freedom series on developing a spiritual growth plan. Harry Flanagan, Father Flanagan to some Oregon duck alumni and super fan. Welcome back to the podcast, my friend.

I didn't wear my Oregon shirt. I should have done it. But I'm glad to be here with you.

And John, when I see you, I always expect in your background that you're just going to have like ducks gear up and your ducks hat on. But yeah, we'll, we'll have to have you back for another time to sport your ducks gear.

In my youth, that was true. I had my walls plastered.

You know, I've never had a chance to ask you since they've moved to the Big ten. What do you think of that? Oregon in the Big Ten? That's a little odd. Doesn't that still feel strange?

It's weird. You know, there's going to be new rivalries created, but I think in the changing landscape, college football now is a form of professionalism.

Yeah. So true.

Yeah. And, and so in the, in that new arena, I think the move to the Big Ten was a survival move for Oregon.

Yeah.

A lot more national exposure.

Yep. And that's sad because I love the Pac 12, but I am embracing change.

Well, we can do another podcast on another day about the demise of the PAC 10 or PAC 12 or whatever it was, but that is not what we're here for today. Today we are wrapping up our series on the foundations of freedom and really trying to help everyone understand how do we establish long term freed and health when we're in recovery from compulsive sexual behavior or sexual addiction. And we've had some great episodes and guests so far. But Harry, today we're wrapping it up, I think, by really playing the long game of like, how do we make sure recovery becomes a new way of life. And that's about having a significant spiritual growth plan. And so let's jump into that. Why is developing a spiritual growth plan essential for long term healing and freedom?

One of the things that probably is not talked about enough is when people come into our small groups, when people come into our counseling department, they are looking for hope. And they may put hope in a therapist. They may put hope in a church or a ministry industry like ours. But each the therapists that we have, the therapists that across the world that are doing this wonderful work that we're, we have a part of, we're all fallible. Every organization is fallible. And if people develop a deep relationship with God, they discover how absolutely faithful he is. And in him they have their true hope. And included in that hope is being in community with a, with a set of believers who also are looking to Christ for that same hope in their situation or circumstances.

That's so good, Harry. I hear you saying that for often, so often, sometimes a pure desire group or getting access to this level of community can be a catalyst of hope. But that ongoing hope is a relationship with Jesus. Like this is just the beginning. I tell people all the time, like I think pure desire is like a gateway drug. Like we're going to get you maybe access to Jesus with skin on in a way you've never experienced before, access to community. What is confession? What is honesty? What is all of these core principles that make up the foundation of what this is? And to your point, Harry, but this is just the beginning. This is a catalyst of hope. It's not just two to five or a ten month group. It's really two to life of I want to become more like Jesus tomorrow and today. And that looks like community around me or attending a church or getting involved or volunteering. And I think for so many of the men or women who go through our group, they've been potentially hurt or wounded of course by others or potentially by a faith community that sometimes that can be really hard. And I just see pure desire groups particularly being almost that gateway or that entry point back into what does healthy community look like? What does it look like to be refamilied? And I love the way you said that, Harry. It's just this is the beginning of hope. But Christ ongoing is the hope.

93 million Americans say they are Christian, but I think that within that number are a lot of nominal Christians. They say they believe, but they have not fully jumped in to that deep personal encountering of the invisible God.

Well said.

Yeah, we've said it at other times that the goal of recovery is not sobriety. The goal of recovery is connection, lasting connection with God and others. Because that's what led us, the lack of that is what led us into our addiction in the first place. And we've said that early in most of our workbooks that this is ultimately an attachment and intimacy deficiency or disorder. That because we haven't learned true meaningful connection where we're known and being known, we reach out for other things that supply some of that feel in a very artificial way. And so lasting change and recovery isn't just can I avoid that bad behavior. But it's. Have I created that level of connection with God and others that does sustain me and that I no longer need to go down those old paths to find something else? Because I found what I was created for, what I was made for.

I don't know if I like how much I get, like, teary eyed. Like, even now I'm like, getting teary eyed. I'm like, we're just starting this episode. But I don't know about you, Harry or Nick, as you guys got into group or got to experience some of pd, but for me, I'm like, I went from maybe addiction or coping with unwanted behaviors like masturbation or pornography use to like, finding myself almost addicted. That's probably not the right word. But like now engaging this pattern of honesty and confession and phone calls. Like, the year after I got through my first group, the community that I was a part of, the interns that I was working with at CREW or Campus Crusade for Christ Headquarters, they literally were like, john's always on the phone. They made an acronym for my name just on the phone, using different letters of my name. Like, that's how they knew me. I was like, I'd enter rooms on the phone, I'd leave rooms on the phone. And I'm not saying that's always healthy, but I was often checking in or calling somebody. Like I was getting reattached, reconnected to the right thing. Not isolating behaviors of masturbation or pornography, but honest and confessional behaviors of phone calls and checking in with others. And that became like something I craved. Like I wanted to be known and seen and just. Harry, I'm curious for you. As you've watched people go through the counseling process and watch people go through group, what do you find are some ongoing rhythms of a spiritual growth plan? Are there structures or rhythms that you typically encourage people to continue to pursue as they follow Jesus?

You know, John, in First Corinthians 13, the first three verses tell us that if our motivation isn't coming out of the love of God, those acts are valueless. And one of the things and especially John has heard from me, Nick, is that I really espouse that our value does not come from our performance. Our value comes from the great work of Christ. You know, Titus, chapter three, verses four through seven tell us that it's his mercy and his grace that gets us through, not our righteous works or our attempts to do righteous works. But we come from a culture, a clan in here in America that teaches our value is based on how well we perform. And so people come into groups, men and women come into groups, and they carry shame because of either what they've done, what their spouse has done. The. The message is, I'm not enough. And whether you are being betrayed or you are the betrayer, everyone is desperately trying to cope. But we haven't been taught how to cope in a healthy way. And what we do in our small groups, whether it's the counseling office or our PD groups, we are learning how to live in community, and we are learning how to cope in ways that are beneficial long term and not just about surviving the day.

I think that's what we're talking about in this podcast, the idea that this is a new way of life, this will become my new normal. This is how I continue to grow in relationship with God and others. And as we're talking about a spiritual growth plan, I think that's a big part of it is maybe even a willingness to reject what we think of as being the normal. Like, well, this is how you're supposed to do devotions, or this is what, you know, your life with Christ is supposed to look like. And you may have an image from, you know, maybe it's the painting of the old man praying over his bowl of soup and bread. And it's like that's. There's this, you know, serene kind of thing I'm supposed to have. And maybe that's not you. I mean, if it is, that's awesome. You know, do your devotions with soup. But. But there may be things for you that it's being out in nature. Maybe it's a particular place in your house that just feels like, that's my spot, that's where I go. Maybe it's another person that really is a part of your spiritual rhythms and connecting regularly with them for prayer and Bible study. Maybe it's a certain song that you listen to or a kind of song, all sorts of things that help us really connect with God in a meaningful way and it becomes unique to us. And I think that's a big part of recovery, is finding what brings our spirit alive, what brings us to a place that we feel more connected to God. We long to be in his presence because if we're just doing it because, well, everybody says I should read my Bible for this long, and then I'm supposed to journal for this long, and then I'm supposed to pray for this long. And again, if that works for you, do it. But I think for many people, it's discovering that there are other rhythms. There are things that feed my soul that I could see myself doing year in and year out. That's what we're searching for. And so I think that's the starting place for me, as I think about that question, is to just say what really works for me? What brings me into that place of connection with God? And how could I make that a significant part of my daily or weekly rhythm so that it's just now a part of how I do life? It's my new rhythm, and I can continue that for the long haul.

It's so good. And Harry, what I heard you say was that if we're doing any of these things from a lens of performance or for love, we have lost all, like, we've totally lost sight of it. And Harry, I don't know if I got to share this with you, but recently, within the last year, there was a moment where I realized I'm like, I think I've spent the entirety of my Christian life. I was literally 26 when I discovered this. And the reality is, it's still in me, Harry. I don't know how to get it out. But I realized that I think I've spent the majority of my life worshiping this gold chain addiction that our friend says of doing something great for God. Right there's the key word for, rather than from. Like, if I do enough, if I have enough spiritual rhythms or disciplines, or if I'm generous enough or hospitable enough or live in community enough or pray enough or do enough whatever religious things, then God will love me. And I'm like, that is so backwards. That is not the gospel. Like, the gospel is, I am so loved that I get to live from it. Like, from love. I've experienced the presence and the love of Christ, and now hopefully it's just spilling over of, like, I can't. I can't tell people enough about how I'm loved living from it and not for it. And Harry, like, I literally started crying a year ago. I'm like, I feel like my entire Christian life, I have been that kid, striving with this sense of performance. To your point, it's built into our culture. It's built into our churches. I grew up as an Awana kid. How many verses can you memorize? Can you ascend the ladder of performance? Can you memorize enough and go through all the books? Like, that was just my paradigm. I have to perform for God. And I think that is so counter to the core message of the gospel.

Absolutely. Absolutely, John. And that Performance base will lead you into hypocrisy. You know, the. The word out of the Greek that Jesus used that we translate? Hypocrites literally means an actor who wears a mask. And when. And that mask is not just an external mask. It's how we want to perceive ourselves. And we deny. We. We deny or minimize the truth because if we believe in value by performance, it's not okay to not perform well enough. And it is so emotionally draining. And your dependency is not on God, but now becomes dependency on my ability to navigate a situation or circumstance. You know, I love what Fuller Theological Seminary put out years ago, a model for discipleship. And there are six stages to it. Actually, I think seven, but they call it six. Number one, we say yes to Christ. We make a commitment to Christ. Number two is education. We start learning the behavior, showing up at church, learning to worship, pray. We're being taught a theological framework. Number three, we volunteer. And number four is a journey inward. Five is a journey outward. I'm going to define those in a minute here. And then there is moving into leadership mentorship, where you're ready to truly invest in and help others. But number seven is the wall. And the wall is where you discover the things that you learned aren't enough. You've hit a situation or circumstance that's beyond your ability to face by yourself. And it is. And it's. That is when people come to pure desire. That's when they come to us because they've hit a wall and they don't know how to negotiate it. And some people are afraid of what's on the other side of that wall. They don't want to do a journey inward because they are going to be exposed to our destructive coping behaviors, to challenging our belief systems. And we would rather find a painless way to move forward in life. But none of us come out of childhood without some form of injury, some form of loss, some form maybe of trauma. And this wall, though, it is a painful place. Climbing that wall and taking that, that journey inward to look at who am I really? Both Augustine and Francis of Assisi said, you can't know God until you know yourself. And the journey outward is where we start telling those people we are in relationship with what you are learning about yourself. And then that next step, the last step, I call it mentorship. But in truth, what it is is your ability to put your arm around somebody else who's a little further back on their journey, and you're walking with them, helping them to climb over this wall and. And Move forward. Because most Christians stop at volunteering and they don't. They. They want to do everything possible to avoid the wall.

Yeah, that's really beautiful, Harry. I think it underscores that our growth and recovery is really about this kind of cyclical motion of it's understanding myself more, understanding God more, understanding myself more, understanding God more and growing in self. Understanding of both my divine and inherent worth in Christ and simultaneously my need for him, my need for dependence on him, and that with him, he's what makes me enough, he's what gives me what I need. And that divine kind of cycle, I think is what we're looking at a spiritual rhythm or a spiritual growth plan to be. How do I just continue to walk in that and make that a priority? And so coming back to that, what would you say in your experience are some of the common gaps or maybe mistakes that people make when it comes to a spiritual growth plan and really paying attention to their growth and recovery?

I think that there are a lot of people, Nick, who come into Pure Desire hoping that we are going to fix them. In reality, I tell every one of my clients that they are my heroes because they have to do the heavy lifting for change to take place. They have to challenge their belief systems. They have to learn new behavioral ways to live in life. We at Pure Desire give them great tools, great information. We expose our pursuit of a healthy theology, which I think is an ongoing process. I can't hold on to theology too tightly because then I'll start turning to my theology for answers instead of turning to God. And the truth is finite man will never fully comprehend the invisible, infinite God. But we are learning. And that joy is the journey of learning more and more about him as we come in. But it's learning that we can live in community because everyone who comes in battling with addiction, the number one sign of that addictive personality is isolation. And there's a paradigm there because we believe that isolation is a safe place for us because no one's looking over our shoulder. But it's also the place we have the worst boundaries in our life.

That's right.

And we find that in isolation that we relapse. So it's learning to trust. The process is something that people have to learn, both men and women, whether they're the addict or they're the betrayed spouse. They have to learn that. And they also have to learn that undealt with issues from your past determine how you cope today. So. So we have to do that, dive into the story inward. And we have to be willing to do that. And it's a scary thing to do. You know, I came to, to pure desire over 31 years ago when it was just getting started as I was the first fallen pastor to join Pure Desire. Back then it was called for Men only.

That's right, fmo.

Yep, yep. And I, I had, I think I had a decent theology. I was willing to do the volunteer work. I had said yes to Christ, but my life was a catastrophe and I had to have that journey inward. And we have to be willing to do that journey in for true change, permanent change to take place.

And Harry, in that I hear you talking about, I mean, the question is kind of back to this idea of gaps in our spiritual rhythms or discipleship. And what I hear you saying, Harry, is like, so many people will never go on a journey inward, unfortunately never find the journey outward, unfortunately never step into leadership or mentorship because they don't want to face the wall. And even as I lead guys in group, I think so often they begin to identify the wall. They're like, yep, that's it. I can't overcome that painful moment with my mom. I'll never reconcile with her or I'll never make sense of why I was fat in middle school and was never wanted by any girls. Or I'll never make sense of that painful moment from my childhood that involved abuse by the same sex or whatever that might be like. They begin identifying the wound, which is so critical, right? They begin that journey inward and sometimes they get met with that wall and they identify. But that wall is so scary. Like, oh my gosh, even as I think about my own wall, right? The story of pain regarding my own mother and being exposed while being at the computer with her and all of what was happening in that moment and shame and what was said and my, my inability to go back and sit with my 9 year old self because I was so afraid of, afraid that I would lose everything if I questioned the health of my relationship with mom. How would that then impact my family of origin? How would that impact my current day relationship? And just to say, Harry, like again, I hear you saying that people hit that wall and sometimes they get defeated or hopeless and they don't know what to do. And they sit down on that side of the brick wall and my heart just breaks because I know what that feels like. I've been to that wall not knowing what to do. And I think I'm so grateful for the language in the New Testament that talks about the power of God or the power of Christ or the power of the Holy Spirit. And the Greek word literally being like dynamo. And so it's just like either you got to climb over the wall or like holy Spirit bring breakthrough. Like we need dynamite to blow up this wall. And I've just seen guys two or three years into the program begin to finally get the courage to do something about that wall. I have a friend right now who just finally was able to write a letter to his mother as he had gone through the pillars. Like he had seen that as the pain point. And three years later, he said literally just in the last month that he's never felt freer as he's finally gained the courage to begin really pushing into this wall, dismantling the bricks in order to find a way through.

John, just yesterday I had a past client call me up and he was such an easy person to work with that he did all of his homework. He was always prepared, he was engaged. He was willing to be vulnerable with me, but he said to me, I will not reconcile with my mother. And he had significant abuse experiences with his mother and she has not changed. And now she's in her 80s, he's retired and, and living in South Carolina. Great, great man. But he called me up to say, harry, Harry, you're one of only a couple of people who understand this. Yesterday I called up my mother and we were able to communicate. I don't need her now to validate me, but I now know I am free and I am content where I'm at. And he had told me earlier that I no way am I going to reach out to her. She's poisoned me. But he climbed the wall and that's. He did it. You know, God had. The Holy Spirit does it at his own pace. And the year long program that we have at pure desire for counseling is setting people up for what happens after they leave counseling.

It's just the beginning.

Yeah, yeah. And, and this person is a wonderful testimony to that. He has kept growing after he left the counseling office for the last time. And, and he's still reaching out to us because he has learned to trust our commitment to give them the tools and the hope that they can climb this wall and that they can take this scary journey inward.

Yeah, I think what you're.

Go ahead, Dick.

No, finish that thought, Nick.

You know me, I could take the whole hour and you guys could just sit back.

Yeah, well, I can see we're maybe going to need to cut down a few question. But I think what you're underscoring in all of this is that really the goal of spiritual growth is about relationships. It's about that growth with God and others. And I think that coming back to the question of what are some of the mistakes or gaps, I think it's what you said earlier that often we find that the form can become more important than the purpose. So when someone says, like, I need to do my devotions, as if the devotions themselves are the goal, or to get my quiet time, or. Or maybe we become so used to a structure of, well, I read this certain book and then I read this prayer journal, and then I. But at the heart it's like, but are we discovering more of Christ? Are we leaning into his work in us? Because the form is only there to take us deeper in the relationship. And I think I would encourage anyone to look at that gap of have I become more enamored or accustomed to the form itself than actually the purpose, which is to lead me deeper in to that relationship with Christ that then leads me deeper out in relationship with others? And if that's not happening, I need to reevaluate the form because the form itself is, again, not the point. So I think if we feel our rhythm is leading us deeper into relationship, then we've really discovered something that can create that lasting change in our lives.

I love that Nick and I would go further. One area that is of great interest to me is attachment theory. And when we take our SDIs or. Or I passed for. For the offended spouse, they do an attachment piece towards the back of the testing. And our attachment style is determined in the first year of our life. And if we don't understand why we function the way we function, we will continue to allow that attachment style to determine how we interact. And there are four general categories to attachment style. Secure attachment, which about 60% of the American population test out as secure. Then there is ambivalent attachment, where when there's a disconnection from an important person, we find anxiety rising in us. And that's me. That's certainly where I function. But my wife Debbie is avoidant or. And then there's another category of fearful avoidant or. Or chaotic or disorganized attachment. But in all of those, we can create secure attachments, but it requires us to do things that feel uncomfortable at first. And that gets to vulnerability, or what I have called vulnerable transparency. That, that, that we on the journey out is when we expose not only our strengths, but our weaknesses to the people who deserve to hear our story. And we at that point in time, begin to learn that it is safe to trust and trust and trust. Trusting imperfect people in a small group, trusting counselors, strangers who are asking you to bear your soul. Learning to trust is a hard journey, but it is a journey that must take place if you want to get rid of the chains that are holding you back. And it's trusting the invisible God. Then when you don't see him at work in your life, you are exercising your faith to believe that you may not be seeing what he's doing, but he's up to something in your life and it is always for the best.

I remember how much of a kick of the pants when I read recovery is simply defined as trusting God again in the Genesis process. I'm like, no, are you kidding me? Like, it's that simple. Simple. But I'm also like, like, that is so hard, learning to trust God and others. Because I think that is the fundamental break of relationship, whether that's from zero to one that forms our attachment or in other relationships. I remember somebody once saying, all addicted or struggling spouses, or just people in general, at one point were betrayed. Their trust was broken. Something went awry in their storyline that then led them to cope. And Harry, that leads us so well into the next question, which just says that a part of our spiritual growth plan is integrating people, which can be the hardest, scariest thing because it's hard to trust. And sometimes that looks like a disclosure process, whether that's to our spouse, to children, to family members. And just as a counselor here at Pure Desire, we'd love to ask you, why is disclosure such an important facet.

To our recovery in our what. What Michael Dye calls protective personalities. Protective personalities are actually what you learned emotionally in your attachment style in that first year of your life to self protect based primarily on how much nurturing you received as a child. And each of those categories that I just mentioned a few minutes ago are based on either the lack of nurturing or the amount of nurturing you receive that first year of your life. And trusting is. It is so key to what we do. But it begins with our being able to admit that when we are in control of our lives, bad things happen. You know, it's. It's our learning to live with the guidance and leadership of the Holy Spirit. And that may be too religious for some who are listening today, but. But it is that God reaches out to you. And his promise is that he's going to guide and lead you into all truth. The battle is that when men and women come into pure desire, they are preoccupied with their circumstances, and they are trying to cope with these circumstances, which is really the wall. But in their minds, it's a circumstance, and they're trying to use old coping strategies that instead of helping you as it did in your youth, it now today sabotages your adult relationships, the most important relationships. Your relationship with your spouse, your relationship with your children, your relationship with the communities that you live. Because if all they see is the mask, then they experience not being valued as the people they actually are. And it's in our small groups where we have a safe place to learn to be transparent and open and then begin to take that practice home to the families is so critical for us. But. But it's in trusting God instead of trusting that how we interpret circumstances. And that's the biggest obstacle of all, because we don't like to believe, as First Corinthians 13:12 says, that we see dimly, but all of us see dimly. And we need to recognize that God has a way out for us, a way through the problem. Yeah, I thought when I came to pure desire 31 years ago as a fallen pastor, I thought my life was over, that I would be sleeping under bridges, that I would be going from rescue mission to rescue mission because I didn't know what a pastor could do when he's no longer a pastor. My identity was in being a pastor. And it was only after I crawled over the wall, very slowly, by the way, when I crawled over that wall and began my healing journey, that I rediscovered that God had been with me the whole time, that he had been setting up situations and circumstances that I thought were dark and painful to lead me to a healthy place. In fact, when my sin was exposed, my addiction was exposed, one of my mentors said to me, harry, you're in a hellish place right now, and you haven't been in such a good place in a long time.

You know, that sounds oddly familiar. Like, I've read that in the Seven Pillars of Freedom workbook five or 600 times, but it's so true. It's. It's that place of brokenness that often finally gives us the courage to be real. And that's what's needed. I go back to what you said earlier about isolation. Isolation has become that place of comfort where we think falsely, but we think we're safe. And it just reminds me every time of Genesis 3. It's the covering up with the fig leaves. It's hiding behind the bushes and thinking, I can't be seen, I can't be known, but God is the gracious father that walks in and invites us to be seen and to find out that that place is not terrifying or horrible, but it's a place we encounter him. And so the goal here is moving in our spiritual growth plan is really continue to come out of that place of isolation and hiding and live in a place of being known. Being known by God and others, and without disclosure, without being real with our spouse, being real with our kids about the journey we're on. Being real with, you know, a circle of friends, our small group. And that doesn't mean I say this all the time. It doesn't mean everybody needs to know everything all the time. We don't just have to live, you know, this wide open public lifestyle, but with the people that are close to us. Being real, being known is what creates that new normal, that new way of life that I think perpetuates spiritual growth because we're not living in hiding. So, so important that we come to those places and it's. It can be incredibly painful and it can take us time. And it's. I think we're constantly battling that old voice that says, no, just hide, just isolate. It's safer over here. And in wisdom, we have to say, you know what? I'm not healthy over there. I'm not a better version of me. It gets much, much worse. I'm going to stay in this place of being known because that's where life is at and that's where growth is at.

So, so, Nick, for, for people just listening, who they're just being exposed to our work at Pure Desire, I would want to define isolation. And isolation is when we are trying to run away from some circumstance in our life. And in the counseling that I do, I always teach the addictive folks who come that with those addictive personalities, I teach them the difference between solitude and isolation. I will support somebody in solitude 24 7. Because in solitude, I'm facing my life. Yeah, I'm. I'm developing my relationship with Christ. I'm learning more about myself and how to interact with my family members and the other significant people in my life, which will eventually include our small groups at Pure Desire or even our counselors. But we are learning how to live in community, even in solitude, where isolation is saying, I'm running away from parts of my life because it's overwhelming to me, and, and I try to escape, but that's where that, that escaping is where we sabotage our relationships.

Yeah.

So well said. And I would just say this to the single who's listening I think my sharing of my story with my younger brothers and my parents, if we talk about the lens of disclosure and being honest, like, I began to realize that I was as sick as my secrets and my secret was simply my porn addiction. I would go on to later unpack more secrets of what that was in group. But at the time, I had simply held my use of pornography and masturbation as a secret from those I was doing life with. I was living isolated in a home with other people. And so it was reintegrating into that home after a summer camp that I said, hey, mom and dad, you need to know my story. I was 13. I had lustful thoughts. I began using masturbation and just started spelling it out for them in a car ride with my siblings, saying, hey, I know you think I'm this perfect older brother. But, you know, the Darth Vader moment, the taking off the mask at the end of the movie, like, that's what began to happen. Like, hey, here's the corruptedness, here's the brokenness that I'm holding. I'm not who you think I am. Like, all of our heroes are flawed.

Why?

Because they're just like you and me. Like that sin out there in the world that also runs straight through my heart. And here's how it's shown up. And my goodness. Like my little brother Wade would go on to say that a part of his sexual health was because he saw the pain and the tragedy in my own life. And he was fully convinced that that is not what the path that he wanted to put pursue. And years later, he said, john, thank you for sharing your story with me. Like, your story was compelling. The pain and the brokenness in your story compelled me to live into sexual health because I knew what I did not want. And it makes me think at the end of the Pillars Nick, where it talks about the alcoholic mothers, the highest indictment, the highest percentage of knowing whether their child would become an alcoholic or not was if the mother could tell a coherent narrative. And so simply to say, we think that our disclosure is going to end our lives and hurt the people around us. And don't get me wrong, disclosure is painful. There are consequences. That is a very real thing. And I think it is often in the disclosure process that when we bring the truth, even the truth of pain and secrecy and addiction into the light, it can actually, what looks like death and it will feel like death in the moment. I think in the long haul, can recreate everything you've ever wanted to, but it has to look like death first.

Yeah. Well, no one ever said it would be easy, but things, Things worth doing rarely are.

Absolutely. And that is part of the wall. John, you did a great job of describing that. And that wall is what our ministry is, allowing people to break the chains. Because when you climb over that wall and you take that, that journey inward with God and you take the journey out where you learn to be open and transparent just as you were. John, just as you said, told us your. A brief version of your story today that that transparency outward now is touching other lives, giving lives permission. We don't know how many lives the three of us have changed because all three of us have climbed that wall. And, and we still are imperfect. We're still being changed from glory to glory.

Yeah.

And if you don't believe me, ask my wife. She'll tell you everything.

Yes.

So. So it is in that change that where we find companionship with other men and women who have had to climb a wall very similar to our wall. And we have something to share. And it only comes out of the disclosure process. It comes with being honest about your story. Because our value comes from being children of God, not how well we have performed in life.

Yeah. So, Harry, how does someone go about starting this? And I'm thinking in particular of someone that maybe has experienced some spiritual, spiritual trauma or abuse in their story, or maybe some of their experiences of how God was forced on them were unpleasant. Or maybe there's a part of their story where they're still feeling, they're still battling that shame message or shame voice that. That says God doesn't want anything to do with you. And I know we can be growing in recovery and yet still be battling some of that in our thoughts about God. So what would you recommend to someone who's maybe in that place that they feel disconnected from God? How would you encourage them to get started?

The very first thing we have to do is to break the isolation. Joining a small group. I remember that my first time in a small group, and I was shocked at the transparency and openness that was happening within that group because I had never been in a group like that before. And observing other people as they are telling their story, it was critically important to me. This is something that you don't have to do yourself. You've been trying to do it all by yourself for some of you for decades. And no matter how hard you try, you fall back into the addictive behaviors. But when you choose to join a group, and the group is going to be a group of very Imperfect people. Some of people have climbed the wall, some haven't yet. But what you hear is those stories and realize, I'm not alone. These people understand they may be going to different churches, maybe you haven't gone to church at all. But when you get into a group and discover that you are accepted for who you are, right where you are, that's to make a full circle of our, of our discussion today. This is where hope begins to manifest itself, even among very imperfect people. Because now I'm seeing people who have thought like I've thought. They've done deeds similar to the deeds that I have done, and they are loving each other and they are caring for each other and they begin to call me up and check on me. And now I can begin the process of learning how to be transparent. And the very reason in counseling we do disclosure much earlier then seven Pillars has it organized. But the reason why Ted put seven pill, the disclosure in seven Pillars in pillar seven is so that you can experience what's happening in your small group. And you're learning to be transparent and open and you have the opportunity to even gain some sobriety. And then comes the place where you, where you do the, the. The great and painful risk of sharing with the important people in your life, just as you did John, by turning to your parents and your younger brothers and sharing with them. And it's in that process that hope comes. And when you've been spiritually abused because of the theology of the church you attended, the brokenness in your own family, it's in a new community where you're seeing different approaches to the Christian walk, different approaches to facing the pain and discovering that even in the midst of your brokenness, even in all of your failings in the true kingdom of God, you are loved as you are and that you don't have to earn his love or our love, that it comes out of the grace and the mercy of God. Again, I would go back to Titus, chapter three, verses four through seven, where it is wonderfully. Paul speaks wonderfully into that. So the goal is that you begin to have hope. Because if you look into the future and you only see hopelessness, why try? But it's where we have hope that we have the opportunity to really engage in the true process of change. And it comes in community, even in your solitude. It's the community around you that is supporting you as you learn that this new way of life. Mm.

Harry, it makes me think of the Henry Cloud quote that Rodney so often shares of. Like, if you've Been wounded or have a level of spiritual trauma or feel disconnected from God. It might be because a lot of us have grown up in churches where there's a pretty high level of performance or pretending where we look good and continually get worse. And oftentimes people have had to go outside the church to find some of their healing into a group where they can look bad and hopefully get better. And what I hear you saying is a pathway to reconnect with God or to re. Engage the spirituality element of our lives is to go do life with other broken people who are reflecting the image and the heart of God to us. Rodney would say people with skin. God with skin on. I need you, Harry. I need the reflection of Christ in you to speak to the lies in me. And I just think that's such a powerful pathway. Like, yes, if you feel disconnected from the church or faith or God in general, a pathway is man. Go find Jesus with the broken. He says that's where he'll be. Right. With those who are in poverty, those who are out, the orphans, the widows. Like, go find people who are really real and honest about the brokenness they're sitting in and watch Jesus show up in the room because he does. Like, that's where he dwells. That's where he's with us.

I'm glad you quoted Rodney. For all of you who are new to pure desire, when you hear that we are going to do something nearby to you, you can go up and have a conversation with Rodney or even have coffee with Rodney because he, like you, John, does not know strangers.

That's so true.

Everybody's part of the family. As it should be. Yeah. You know, as I think about where do we start? Especially if we've maybe felt disconnected from God, we've. We've walked through some level of spiritual or church abuse, I think it's important to acknowledge we don't have to do this alone in terms of. We often get presented a spiritual journey that is alone. Now, that may be solitude for some, and that can be healthy. But it can also be this pressure. Like, I go into my prayer closet and I do all these things, and yet I don't know what to do. I don't feel connected. I'm not getting anywhere. And so my encouragement would be to reach out for help. There are many people who have made it their profession. It's like if we think of counselors existing for our mental health, there are spiritual directors and spiritual coaches whose primary role, what they feel called to, is helping you establish and understand your rhythm. With Christ and growing in God, and they become that wise mentor who can ask the right questions, just like a counselor can. They can help present maybe some ideas about our spiritual journey that we haven't thought about. They can expose our blind spots and how we think about God. And I know in my own life for. Well, it started with my pure desire journey. Fifteen years I've had a spiritual director who's really helped me understand the things I'm not understanding very well about where I'm at with Christ. And he's been a tremendous part of helping me unravel that performance mindset that I have even in my relationship with God, and helping me see that God doesn't need my performance. He doesn't need me to do it right, that there is a relationship that. That is growing there because someone else is able to provide that input. And so I would. I just encourage you, if you're listening and you feel kind of stuck or feel like you've tried a lot of the traditional Christian things to. To grow your walk with Christ and you just feel like you're not getting anywhere. Like, you don't have to do this alone. Reach out, find a spiritual mentor, a director, a friend that. That can really encourage you in that walk. Because, yes, there are aspects of our relationship with God that are between, you know, him and us alone, and no one else can do it for us. But there are so many pieces where we really need to see our relationship with God as maybe being the outcome of community, the outcome of friendship, the outcome of other relationships we have that give us a right understanding of our relationship with God so that we're not just trying to walk alone in an area where we really might need some support or encouragement.

And, Nick, don't you just love and hate those people? Like, they say the best things and the worst things. It's like, I can't believe you just said that to me. And they're like, but keep saying it. It's like, this is so painful. Like, Harry, I remember so many conversations with you where I'm like, did Harry just say that to me? I can't believe he just said that to me. But it's also like, oh, my goodness. Like, there's a level of pain or reality that sometimes they can bring that's just like, I would have never thought about that. They just. They kick your paradigm. They break it down, they build it back up. And, man, we need honest, compassionate truth tellers. I'm not trying to scare somebody away from that space. I'm just saying that Space is where life gets real. Rubber hits the road and you're like, I think you just slapped me. But it was the kindest slap to the face I've ever received.

Well, Harry, you have given us many, many points of thought today. Things for people to wrestle with. For those who maybe tuned in and thought, okay, they're just going to give me a ABC spiritual growth plan. What they got today was a very deep conversation about how we grow with Christ and others. And we're so thankful for you and the wisdom you bring. And so as, as we wrap up today, I guess I want to just kind of lob you the softball of. What would you say to someone who's looking to create a new spiritual rhythm and have it be a new way of life? You know, this ongoing healing and freedom that we talk about. What would you encourage someone with as we wrap up today? What comes to mind for you, Harry?

When I disclosed, I thought my life was over. But what I did not realize on the most painful day of my life, it was the beginning of my journey. And I would tell everyone that here I am 74 years old, now I am in a wheelchair because of a disease. But I would tell you the last 31 years have been the best 31 years of my life. I would tell people that this is a journey that is worth the pain of facing the chains that are holding you in place, that are anchoring you in your brokenness. We can, and those chains can be broken. Our entire ministry is proof of that. But I also want everyone to write down August 5, 2025, because, Nick, you just gave an idea to all of us that maybe we need a second counseling department that is spiritual directors, that, that maybe this is the follow up to going through our year long counseling program or our year, our nine month program, going through our small groups. Because I think you're absolutely right, Nick. We all need someone.

Yeah.

To mentor us. And those are the people who have gone through all seven stages of discipleship and they are there to walk with you. They're not going to direct you. They're going to walk with you and help equip you for your journey.

Yeah. Amen. John, any final thoughts from you as we wrap up?

Just a ton of gratitude. I wrote down this earlier, but Harry, I don't know if you've ever seen this. There's a lot of Fs that seemingly are identifying words of you. And I just want to read this back to you. You were a fallen pastor that then crawled over the wall and somehow became the foundation of pure desire. How cool is that? A fallen pastor became the foundation of pure Desire. You then in the journey, became a father to so many men, including anybody who's gone through the pillars because they've been impacted by your voice. Like Nick and I said earlier, we've heard that before, before. You then became a father, and you are now becoming a fossil in your own words. Not trying to be disrespectful, you said that, fossil Flanigan. And you are now a fossil that tells the story and the history of the redemptive power of Christ in and through the work here at Pure Desire. And so, Harry, just to say thank you, like, if somebody listens to this episode, I think they just got like a free, I don't know, three months of pure desire counseling because they just heard some of the best of Harry Flanagan. And so fallen pastor, foundation, Father fossil, whatever it is, Harry, you are a gift to the world. And I just want to say thank you for everything we've talked about today. To your point, Harry, you've been through. This is your story. You're not talking about, you know, abstract ideas. This is your lived experience. And you have become the wounded healer that has helped so many other people crawl over the wall because you went first. So thank you for choosing to say yes to that painful day that's become the best. I agree with your words. The journey is worth the pain. Yeah.

Yeah. John, you're gracious. Thank you very much.

Yeah, you're welcome.

I think the thing I'd say as we wrap up is don't be afraid to fail that much like a marriage relationship. One of the things I've said to married couples is you've got a lifetime to figure this out. Don't panic if this month isn't going so well. Well, and when we think about our spiritual journey and growth with Christ, like, if. If tomorrow we're working on something and it's not really working for us, like, all right, try something else. Talk to someone new, like, take another step, because you've got a lifetime to figure this out. And don't get so caught up in, well, what I'm doing isn't working. Like, okay, keep trying. Keep failing. And it actually, I think as you experiment with your. Your relationship with Christ and you try new things, you read new books, you. You engage in new spiritual practices, some things are going to work and click. And even in the failing, you're actually going to find that you're moving forward because you're looking to have a dynamic, growing relationship with Christ. And just like in any relationship, it doesn't look the same this year as it will in five years or 10 years. Like it continues to change because it's a relationship, not just a practice. And so I think if we're open to that, we're open to inviting other people in. And following many of these things Harry's talked about today, we'll continue to grow and find that recovery becomes a way of life and not just a season that we were in. So, Harry, we, we love having you on. We appreciate you. Thanks for all the wisdom and insights that you brought to us today.

Yeah, thank you, Harry.

I love you both too. And thanks for the opportunity to, to be with you today.

Amen.

Love you, Harry.

Well, if you're a fan of the content, if today's show meant something to you, please subscribe, share it with somebody, give us a, like, write us a review. All of these are ways not just to make us feel good, although, you know, I would say that they kind of do make us feel good. But no, really, the main point is it helps other people find this life giving content because it gives it visibility. And maybe your comment or your review will be what catches someone else's eye and gets them going in their healing journey. And if you want more information about pure desire, groups, resources or counseling, finding our team like great people like Harry Flanagan, you can Visit us@puredesire.org Again that's puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.