423 - The Ideal Group Member: Starting Group Well

Foreign.

Listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 423, and here joining me as my co host for the first time is Mr. Stuart Blade. Stuart, welcome to this side of the podcast.

It's exciting. Yes, thank you, thank you. I wish I had a song to sing, but I come with nothing prepared.

Yeah, you know, we were discussing earlier that, you know, John Beguman has been singing a lot when he's been co host. And I. I do want to make clear, like, to anyone listening who's going to be a co host with me at some point, you're not required. Not required.

Well, I am very thankful for that.

But, yeah, if you do come up with any witty intros, I. I'm sure our listeners miss that. So, hey, today we are starting a new series. This month, we're gonna be focusing on a major part of Pure Desire, which is the group experience, and talking about how someone can be the ideal group member or really emphasizing how can someone have a really, really positive group experience? So we know this is at the time of this podcast coming out. It's a season when many churches are ramping up and starting groups, or someone might be coming off of their summer and like, okay, I need to get into a group, and we want to help them process what that looks like. And today we had a conversation with Rich Moore about how to start group.

Well, yeah, such an important piece of the puzzle is just launching. Well, and how that just sets up. I mean, we're talking. This is eight to 10 months of a journey, and just these first few weeks really just will have an impact. I mean, it's why they say first impressions matter. Like, this is one of those pivotal moments within group that really makes a difference.

You know, a little moment of transparency here. One of my recurring nightmares is that I'm going to a marathon and I'm late. Like, I can't find my shoes. I can't find my, you know, race number. Yeah, I can't find the starting line. And I'm having this fear and panic that I'm going to miss it. But it makes me think about that as a metaphor, that if. If you're running a marathon, it's, I think, really important to start. Well, to start at the right time.

Yeah.

And it's going to get hard, but if you start well, it increases your likelihood of success. And I think sometimes people maybe if they're kind of floundering, if they're not really committed to it or they don't do the work, they're going to feel continually like, man, this group isn't working for me. But it might be that they just didn't get a good foundation at the beginning. And so I think today we offer a lot of advice on how to make sure that you're doing what you can to face this in a way and to start group well so that it increases the likelihood that when it gets hard that you'll be successful.

Yeah. And if I could just play off the marathon, like, one of the things that I would just want to add to the emphasis of this group is some of the lies that we believe is maybe there's some like, pre work that we would have need to have done. Like, I'm sure for those marathons, you didn't just show up having not run. And so when it comes to group, like, this is that opportunity where, like, there's a lot that we're going to learn as we go. And it's just that different shift of a mindset to sit there and say, like, you don't have to come with like, sobriety and freedom, like, come as you are and just show up and just make that one initial step to show up on the starting line. And we're going to go at a pace that is equipping each person on an individual level.

Yeah, just. Just get started and we'll go together.

Yeah. Well, they take us a long time, but we'll do it.

We'll get there. Yeah. Well, we hope for you as a listener, if you're looking to start group, that this will be a tremendous encouragement. And I know you'll get a lot from Rich Moore. Rich Moore is our associate director of men's groups for Pure Desire and is a certified pastoral sex addiction professional through ITAP. He has been involved with Pure Desire for over 30 years, which is actually longer than the ministry has been a ministry. But he was with Ted Roberts in the beginning and he has been a foundational piece of helping many, many churches start the A Pure Desire group ministry. Rich also is the author of the book the Silent Battle, One Man's Fight for Freedom. So here now is our conversation with Rich Moore in our Ideal group member series, starting group. Well, Rich Moore, welcome back to the podcast.

Yeah, great to be here. It's been a little bit.

Yeah, it's been a hot minute since we've had you on. How's life for you?

Not doing too bad. I don't know if I'm real thrilled about the Bears draft pick last night, but we'll see.

They took another tight end, right?

Yeah. I mean, I could see, you know, dual tight end, a little bit of protection on the end if you're going to heavy run game, an extra set of hands, but yeah, we'll see. Yeah.

Well, we could talk NFL draft probably all day, but that's not what we're here for. We are here starting a series on the ideal group member and really focusing on how do we have a positive group experience. Because at Pure Desire, we've seen that the group experience really is transformational. It's a major part of the recovery journey. And we have seen examples where people get into group and they just don't function well. They make some mistakes or they don't, you know, get into the curriculum the way they should. And then we've seen other group members really jump in and thrive. And so what we want to highlight in this episode is like, what makes for a really positive first group experience. And so rich, as you think about starting group well, what does that mean to you? How could someone make sure that they start their first group well?

Well, yeah, it's a great question. There's so many different ways you can answer that. From a leader point, from a group member point. But I think for, for men, women coming into groups, I mean, that first group, their first experience to start, well, really it's to go in with limited expectations because so often times guys will come in and like, oh, I'm going to be out of this in 12 weeks. Even though they know they're signing up for a 10 month course, but I'm going to be healed in 12 weeks. So just to let them know, like, hey, you know, we'll set the tone early. Hey, this is a safe group. We're open. You know, we're going to have everybody share, walk through that together, what that looks like, creating that safe atmosphere as a leader by going first and letting them know, obviously telling our story is going to help create that safe atmosphere for them. And then, you know, when I tell my story, it's like, you know, we talk about two to five years in the podcast many, many times and all that stuff. And they say, well, I've been leading groups for 30 years. I've been involved for 30 years, guys, like 30 years. So yeah, it's kind of, you know, so it's like, not that you're going to be here for 30 years, but don't limit yourself, you know, and and give yourself some grace because it's going to be difficult. You know, it's going to be hard and not to be afraid that, you know, a relapse. We talk about how relapses will happen, that especially early on that relapse will happen. But I think just starting well is to go in with an open mind because we're doing something that we've never done before because we've just decided to give up something that never told us no. And we have other guys in the group that are experiencing the same thing. So it's like, okay, now we're all on the same page. How can we take this from our very first meeting and just launch really well where, hey, we're all here for the same thing.

Yeah.

And there's no expectations. I just going to do whatever I need to do to get through this. And yeah, I just. Without a safe atmosphere and a safe group, it's not going to work. Yeah.

I love what, just the idea of safety and then I like the idea of expectations. I think coming in with curiosity is a great quality to come in with because if you already have some preconceived ideas about what this group is going to look like, like that can set you up for failure in that first. So just coming in, being curious, maybe you've done this recovery work before and been part of a different group and things didn't go well or wherever you find yourself and just coming in with the curiosity of like, what makes this different and how am I going to respond to that?

I think it's interesting how often we come into group and we're still trying to manage our own recovery. Like we want it, we think we know how to do it. And I remember I kind of had some of that and attitude and really it's arrogance and it's, it's so ironic because if we could figure it out on our own, we would have, we wouldn't need. And so one of the things I say, you know, to guys just starting group and it applies to women as well. But I don't lead women's groups. But saying to the guys is like, you've, you've got to just do all the work. Don't, don't decide like, oh, this part I don't need or this. I don't think that'll be helpful. Like just do all the work. And we talk about it all the time. Trust the process. Yeah. Don't try to self manage and decide what you do or don't need. Just immerse yourself in the experience, because there's that reality that you don't know what you don't know. You have these blind spots, you have this lack of understanding what's going on. And if you go into group trying to self manage your own recovery and do it your way, it's probably not going to be effective. And it's why you've ended up in group in the first place. So there really is that need for humility to just say, I don't know what I don't know. I don't see what I'm missing. And so I'm just going to open, like you said, I'm going to have an open mind to everything the group is doing, to doing all the work, all the homework, all the assignments. Because that, that place of trust and vulnerability is really where I think transformation starts to set in.

Yeah. I hear you saying, like, the word control. Like, you didn't say that, but, like, that's how I came into group. Like, how can I control my own? Even though my control never got me anywhere. Right. And so just to come in with that, like, I will release control and be in this moment to see what this looks like. Rich, what are some of the key mindset shifts or attitudes someone should bring into the first few weeks of group?

Yeah. And to have an open mind and to realize that in that group setting, what we used to do, realize that it didn't work. And like you said, if it worked, we wouldn't be here and for so long. Guys will come into this, into the group thinking that they can still hold onto the piece, that it's like going to the cross and saying, hey, I'm going to go to the cross and I'm going to give everything away. But then when you turn around and you walk away, you're like, wait a minute, you turn around, you pull off a little piece of that paper, you put it in your pocket so you still want to hold onto it. Guys have a really hard time just letting go. In group, though, we know it takes a little bit of time for them to let go and to really open up and be honest. Because it's just a process where I have to trust the guys, I have to trust the leader. But to go into the process knowing that it's not going to be quick, it's going to be hard. I can't do it on my own. I need these guys because I've never had anybody in my corner ever that have supported me and to be in a group. And if the leader really sets a group Up. Well, it'll really help change the mindset of the guys pretty quick because to realize, like, wow, these are the five guys that will know everything about me that I can trust. I may not even have five guys that are super close to me that knows me really at all. So by the end of group, you leave group with, like, these guys that are, like, almost like forever friends because you shared everything.

Yeah.

So, yeah. If you've seen our introductory video series, Sexual Integrity 101, one of the testimonies on there, Dan Howey, he says, I, I tried everything. And then he stops himself and says, well, I tried everything on my own.

Yeah.

And I. I think that's the mindset shift is, is we have been in a lot of isolation around this topic and kind of saying to ourselves, I don't want anyone to know. I don't need anyone to help me. I'm going to figure this out. And so there's that mindset shift that says, I need other people, I need others to speak into my life to help me understand what I'm going through. And then with that, I would say an attitude that says, I can learn from anyone. You know, I remember in my first group, there were several people of different age groups than me, completely different walks of life. And there can be a little bit of hesitancy, like, well, how can I relate to what you're going through? Because we're in totally different spaces in life. And yet as they would share their story, as they would talk about the false beliefs that they had struggled with, the ways that they had experienced trauma, it was like, oh, I can see myself in your story. And that so often is a huge part of the recovery process. When we hear it from others, it helps us see it in our own story in a brand new way. And so I think if we go into group, we might feel like, well, I'm the only single guy in group, or I'm the only married guy in group, or I'm the only guy in his 50s. Whatever it is, probably everyone has a category they're in that they think, well, I'm the only one that has this. And yet the truth is you can learn from anyone. And the more we learn from others, it will give us the insights we need to really make changes in our own story.

Yeah, that's powerful. If I just had one that I would pick out, it would be a mindset of progress and not perfection, is to come in, and especially in the. In the first few weeks of group, to think, like, I'm gonna have this figured out in a couple weeks. Like, nope. It didn't take a couple weeks to get where we're at to the point that we joined a group and to come in and again have that curiosity of, like, what does it look like to take one more step in the right direction and then just to continuously do that over the months of group?

Yeah. I always share, too, with guys in the group was like, you know, when they. When they have that expectation, it's like, wow, 10 months they're gonna get like. Or even when they're asking about groups coming in, it's like, you know, you. If you talk to a guy that struggled for 20, 30 years and he's watched porn every day.

Yeah.

I said, okay, in 10 months, you're going to have 40 meetings. That's 80 hours of group time, plus, you know, add another 40, 50 hours of homework and connection. So maybe 120, maybe 120, 200 hours of recovery. And you think you're going to get to be healed, totally healed and set free and 200 hours of work when you spent 20 years of your life every day, multiple hours, and they're like, yeah, makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It can be a long road, but a fruitful one.

Yes.

So in your experience, Rich, what are some of the common mistakes you've maybe seen people make when they start group and they don't start? Well, what. What. What would you say about how we can avoid making those mistakes?

Such a. Such a great one. There's a lot of them. I think I'll just pick the couple, big ones off. So I would just say for. Especially for guys, maybe listen to this for the first time. Thinking about group, one of the biggest ones that I hear often is, like, when they come in, they're one. They're not taking any ownership of their action. They're in group because, oh, my wife wants me in group. They're in group because, oh, I got caught at work, my boss wants me in group. So they're not. They don't want to be there. They're there to try to protect their marriage, protect their job, for whatever. It's a huge mistake, and it just prolongs their healing. Eventually, they'll get there. Some guys do, some guys don't. Some guys will go through the whole process and really never get through the blaming others part. So just to be able to come in again with that open mind is like, you know what? I'm here because I messed up. I did this. Nobody else forced me to do this. I did this on my Own, the quicker they can get through that. Their healing will really just accelerate pretty quickly. And the other big one, super common. Every group leader will probably laugh at this one is one of the biggest mistakes is guys coming to group without doing the homework and trying to answer the questions, you know, and we have our group guidelines, you know, read what you wrote, stick to the process. And for the leaders to really like, hold group members accountable. It's like, I think that may be one of the biggest mistakes is really coming to group and not being prepared. If you just go through the motions for 10 months, you're not going to get anywhere.

Yeah.

You know, you're just checking a box because, oh, my wife knows I'm going to group and I'm just filling that box so she knows that I'm at least going to group. And you see those guys in seven pillars for two or three times before the light turns on, you're like, gosh, I wish I would have done this the first time around. That's probably the biggest mistake is really not taking it serious up front.

Yeah. What I hear you saying is all what the name of the first pillar is? Breaking through denial. And like, that is such a pivotal mistake that we see where it takes sometimes multiple times, as you were saying, going through just to finally get through of breaking through denial. I also heard just underestimating the homework of just how much time that truly takes to. To do it. And just using seven pillars as my own reference guide in the introduction. It gives even a weekly outline of like, here's how to do this and break it down. And yet confession for the first time I was going through. I did it on a Monday and Sunday night. I'm like scrambling to get my homework done. And that's. I mean, I. I can, I can relate to everyone who has that experience because I've been there too, of trying to scramble the night before to get my homework done. Yeah. Just some of those mistakes that we can all relate to. I think that's the healthy thing that we can do in group and just realize how we have had such a tendency to isolate. Like ghosting is a real thing. And just to be able to be aware of when I am just really lacking that area of reaching out, having community. Because this is so different than everything I've done in the past of any form of having authentic community. It's scary when you're entering in because being that vulnerable, it's.

It.

It is a new reality of a depth of which people are knowing you.

Yeah.

Yeah. I, I thought about kind of along those same lines that people doing the bare minimum in the work. You know, it's like when their faster scale is four words long, they're, they're just, I was sad it hurt them, you know, and they're, they're not really processing. They're just kind of filling in the blank, so to speak. And the other thing I've seen people do is kind of shift into performance mode quickly, where maybe they've had a few good weeks and now they're suddenly giving advice to everyone and sharing, well, here's what's working for me. Or they're pulling out all these scriptures and trying to give little sermons in the group. And actually both of those are forms, I think, of deflecting from really looking deeply into our own story and facing things we need to face because we're just kind of scratching the surface. And then we turn that focus out on others, which really prevents us from going to the places we need to go. So I, I, I've just seen kind of those two work in tandem of I'm not really facing my story and, and that deflection can keep us from healing the way we, we really want to heal.

Yeah.

Yeah. Rich, why is consistency such a vital part of the group's success, especially in those early stages?

Oh, this is a great question. I love this question. And hopefully, I think with, you know, especially the guys, since, you know, being a guy leading guys groups and, but for, for women too, it's like when we go back to, you know, the wound, seems like that's a conversation I've had a lot this week with multiple people. When you go back in, like my own story, being abused at 4 and then learning how to do stuff on your own. So there's, there's really no consistency. There's no safety, there's no consistency. So, so many times with these guys, it's like father wound, mother wound. Maybe mom and dad are split up. There's sexual abuse, physical. So there's just, whatever the, whatever happened as a kid, there's just been no consistency. So as we get older, we're not consistent in anything. We drop. We, we, what do they call it? Job hop, job to job to job. You can't keep a job. There's inconsistency in your finances. You're not consistent in friendships and meeting, whatever. We've just learned that it's all about me because really I'm in survival mode. And that's why everything's so inconsistent, because if I stick to something, it's like one. It's like, if I commit to this, the fear is I'm going to get hurt. So I'm just going to do my own thing. And in a way that's. I'm being consistent in my own thing, but it's actually hurting me. So there's maybe a little bit difference there when it comes to the group. It's like to realize when you come into group, it's really important as a leader to set that tone of like, hey, this is the plan. This is how the groups run. You know, the 40, 60, 20. Read what you wrote. We're going through the process and keep that consistent every week because these guys are coming in with no consistency whatsoever. So when there's like a schedule and it's. I don't wanna say rigid, but it's like, hey, this is what we're doing. It's really hard for those guys who have never had any, like, formal plan in front of them. They've just been. Was that fly by night? That's kind of the. What they've done for so long.

Yeah.

And the sooner they. That can happen in group, they will do. They'll start learning and picking up. And then it's not just like from the leader. It's like they start picking up the consistencies from the other group members too, which I love. I always tell my guys in group, it's like, I don't want to sit here and talk all the time. I want to see them interacting together in the group. And so when you see consistency that way, now they start. They start trusting each other and they're building trust. And then by the time they. They get out of group, I've had so many guys say, rich, I can't say I really enjoyed being in group with you because you were pretty hard. But I love the fact that you were hard and consistent and helped me through this process because I've never had a guy talk to me like that and point me in the right direction. And it goes a long way. And it goes back to like starting the group. Well, the very. At the beginning is like, consistency, consistency, consistency. I know we've talked about that a few times in the past.

So yeah, there's something powerful about that high level of commitment where you just decide, I'm going, like, no matter what, I'm going to group, I'm doing my work, and if I don't feel like it, I'm going. And if I do feel like it, I'm going.

Yeah.

Because in many ways, emotions have been driving our Life in a negative way, that we've been escaping difficult things. We've been, you know, medicating our pain. And the group process, I think, teaches us to be responsible in a way that says, I can do this. I can just consistently do the work, go to group. And I know there were weeks, you know, that first group I remember, like, man, I did not feel like it. Often doing my homework triggered anger because there was all this stuff I wasn't dealing with. And I was like, oh, I don't like this. But I would hear that mantra like, okay, trust the process. Just do the work. Keep moving. And sometimes it was the weeks where, like when I was doing the homework, it's like, yeah, this isn't a very great lesson. Those were the groups where it just seemed like the Holy Spirit would speak some new insight or something that I hadn't anticipated. It was. It was the weeks I didn't see it coming at all that I think had the biggest impact. So I would say that too. As you start group, like, you never know what lesson, what assignment, what question, what story someone shares is going to create that spark of awareness of connecting the dots in your story. And if you're not committed, if you're only going, you know you're missing group when you don't feel like it, or you're. You're if on the homework, you may miss those moments and. And then you might look back on group and go, I don't know if it was that effective and said, well, is it that the group wasn't effective or your level of commitment to it kept it from being effective for you. So it's. It's kind of that idea. I love how Dave Ramsey says it about financial peace for those who ever took taking that class. You know, he says, I don't make a guarantee because if you do the work, you're not going to need a guarantee. It's going to work for you. And if you don't do the work, I'm not giving you your money back because you didn't do the work. And I think group is a lot like that. Like, if you do the work, if you stay committed and consistent and engaged, it's going to make an impact on your life. Now, I'm not trying to promise, like, it'll fix all your problems and you'll never struggle again, but I'm saying it will make a significant difference in your life.

And.

But if you don't make that commitment, you're probably gonna feel like, well, this didn't really work. And Again, that's more a byproduct of the lack of consistency than it is about the group or the material.

Yeah, I think of this one. So before I'm like a jack of trades here with careers, but I was a firefighter for 14 years of my life. And I think back to the fire academy, we had to put on all the gear and you had to do it within like 60 seconds. And I just think about those beginning months of training where you did that so repetitively. You would do it blindfolded, you would do it in the dark. You would have to like, they'd kick your gloves around if you like misplaced them. So they, you'd like scramble and try to do this. And so you just continuously do that. And eventually you got it to where when you're on shift, you could be at the kitchen table, that 60 seconds is still there. We got to roll out the door. And so I think about that in regards to like the faster scale. It was through that repetition of doing the faster scale, doing my check ins that I joke now because even my daughter, like, if I say a white lie in the kitchen, she'll be going to have to confess that one to your group today. Like, even my daughter is picking up on that like idea of. These are the, these are the consistent parts of the check in. Like it's the being aware of self awareness of where you're at on the faster scale. Even the fourth question of have I lied to anybody this week? And just how even my kids are noticing that has become ingrained in part of our healing journey.

Yeah.

So Rich, when you're starting group, learning to trust people, particularly in this area of life, can be difficult. There's often been pain or wounding maybe associated with that. And so how do you encourage a new group member to build trust with others maybe especially when they're still unsure about being vulnerable to this level?

Yeah, kind of two, two answers to this question. I'll start with the leader. We talk about leading first. Leading through our own story. Because if I, if I do a group and I never share anything personal about my story, the guys are like, well, who's this guy leading a group? He's just, you know, he's not sharing anything. So leading, being vulnerable as a leader goes a long way. It's like, wow, my leaders got this tremendous testimony or story. And then, you know, I think Stuart mentioned it too, or, or maybe Nick you did. Is like, I may have something in my story, may have triggered something in them where they're like, wow, he can share that now. I can share that. And to go back, what I said a little bit, a little bit ago about having hearing the other guys talk instead of just me talking all the time, that's really how the group builds trust. That's one way.

Yeah.

Because if the leader is controlling the group and really, you know, following up every single answer and not giving the group enough time, you know, I want to hear those guys start connecting. Because the. The connection between the guys in group, that's where that trust is. Because now, you know, Stuart and I, wow, it's like, wow, we share the exact same thing. Had no idea. So now maybe they're connecting outside of group because they share this specific thing about a father wound or whatever. So to be able to have that, you know, the appropriate cross talk, not just speaking out of turn, but open sharing, being vulnerable, encouraging them. I use. I use this word. I even put it in my book. I don't even know where it came from, but I call it like vulnerable transparency. So, like, you're almost so vulnerable transparent that there's like, people can just literally see through you. And to be able to risk say, I'm coming to this group, I'm here because I messed up. I heard a lot of people. I don't have an option not to be transparent and vulnerable. And the quicker you can do that, the quicker trust gets built in group. Because now these guys are. You're all sharing the same stuff. And another thing I tell guys quite often, it's like, you know, we look at the roots and not the fruits. So you may have seven guys. I literally was talking to a guy yesterday about this. You have seven guys who act out seven different ways. But at its core, everybody in group, they share the same wounds, father wound, abuse, trauma, whatever that is. So that connects them immediately. Why we're in group, we're just acting out differently. So the level of trust, they can already connect on at least a couple points of their story. And then obviously, the accountability piece, phone calls, checking in, that kind of stuff. But trust isn't going to happen. First week. Yeah, second week for some guys because they've grown up and they've never trusted anybody. It may take them a couple months for them to really open up. And that's okay because you can't force something. Especially with a super deep level of trauma in their life where there's just so much pain, they haven't really processed much. It's really hard to trust.

Yeah, Rich, what I hear you saying is just the leader sets the tone for what vulnerability looks like. And I think as a leader, one of the things we get the privilege of doing is just being a non judgmental listener and just to affirm, affirm, affirm. Like when they take that courageous step to share something that is incredibly vulnerable, we have that responsibility. It sounds cliche, but thank you for sharing goes a long way. If I have nothing else to say, just, just say thank you for sharing. And then for the, for the group member, start small. Like what's one small thing that we'll call it like testing the water. Like just dip your toe and share one vulnerable part about yourself and see how the group responds. And if they respond in a positive way like that builds that opportunity to like, okay, well they, I shared that and I didn't think that was allowed. Maybe I can say, well there's another thing I haven't also shared and maybe I can feel like that's a safe place to share that as well.

Yeah, it's one of the parts of a pure desire group that I think is a little bit genius. The way that the curriculum really is meant to lead you into vulnerability when you're not used to it. How often we say in group, like just read what you wrote. So if you're doing the assignment and maybe you feel like I say in my group all the time, like when you do your homework, don't self edit, don't feel like, well, I'm not going to share this so I don't want to write it down. Like just write down everything. And then when you get to group, if you're not ready, you know, you could skip over that part. But more often than not, I think when we get to group we just, we can put our head down, we read what we wrote and it's maybe more vulnerable than we've been. But we're not just, you know, trying to be vulnerable off the cuff. We're not in the moment trying to be like, well what did. I feel like we're just sharing what we wrote and that I think it kind of de escalates the emotion around that and we're able to. I don't have to look at you in the eye while I'm sharing it. I can look at my book. But then it's those moments after that where it's like, wow, I just shared something pretty vulnerable. When the group reacts like you said, Stuart of awe. Thank you for sharing. And I can relate. We really appreciate that. It's like, oh, you know, that seemed like a big deal, but the group just kind of received it.

Yeah, they still love it.

That's exactly.

No one freaked out. And I think there's that truth that our story, because it's personal to us, is more raw, it is more emotional, it is more. There's more shame attached to it. But when we say it out loud, a guy that hears this like, well, yeah, that makes sense. I've done that. Or that's happened to me. And. And it kind of creates that commonality that, oh, the parts of my story that have had all this shame attached to it are really not that uncommon in the group that I'm a part of. So I think just reading what you wrote is a great way to start practicing vulnerability. And then through that, I think you'll see in people's reactions that I can trust them to share these kind of things.

Yeah, that's powerful, Rich. What encouragement would you give to someone who feels anxious or skeptical about whether a pure desire group will really help them?

Yeah, for first thing with that is, I mean, if you're even thinking about it and you have questions, is really just to call us, you know, just ask questions. If you're looking for an online group, we've actually started these, like, online consultations to see if an online group is a good fit. If you're, if you're looking for a local group but you're still having those questions, you can call us and, you know, we can walk you through that. But yeah, and again, even in those conversations, again, like the conversation I had yesterday, just sharing a little bit of my story and to let them know that this is a process, it's a painful process, but it's one that is literally life giving. I can't tell you how many times I've said just walking through this with Dr. Ted in the past is like, I mean, he pulled me, literally pulled me out of the gutter, you know, ministry saved my life. So when I can share that with somebody and the benefits of being. Not just working at pure desire, just. Just being involved with pure desire and you give them a little sense of hope because these guys are calling in, there's like, there's no hope. My wife's leaving me. I've lost my job. I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm not going to be able to see my kids. It's like, hey, this is a chance to really do something for the first time in your life that's going to bring life back into your life. And, you know, surrender to the process is really difficult. But you just Encourage them, and you meet them right where they're at. I think that's one of the things a lot of times that we've talked about in this area where a lot of churches have kind of failed in regards to, like, the sexual addiction and working with. It's like we're so afraid to meet people where they're at. It's like, oh, we don't have this problem here, or we don't do this. We'll go somewhere else. So they kind of past them. And it's like half the time, people, when they call us, they just want somebody to listen to them. I think you, Nick, you maybe mentioned that, but just encouraging them, saying, hey, thank you again, affirming. Thank you for making the call. Because we know making the call to us is probably one of the hardest things. Because one, it's like you finally admit that you need help, and then you just affirm that and say, you know what? Hey, we're here. This is what the program looks like. This is what we can do for you. And when you talk about counseling, you just give them the whole kind of rundown and just love on them where they're at. And then obviously, the decision is up to them from there. But you paint the picture. You don't even have to paint it. You're just sharing your story and giving them. Once they kind of get that little hook of hope, and they're like, okay, I get it now. Then nine times out of 10, they're signing up for a group. Yeah.

When I've heard people say, you know, a group really helped me, I've come back to them and said, you know, what do you have to lose if you keep doing what you've been doing for another year? Where are you going to be? And it's like, well, I'll probably be right where I am now.

Yeah.

And I said, but if you do a group and there's a chance, and we know there's better than a chance because we've seen thousands of people go through a group and experience tremendous change in their life. If there's a chance that they. This could be transformational for you, wouldn't it be worth it? Like, wouldn't it be worth a year of your life? And it's not like every day, all day, it's all you do. It's, you know, it's one group a week. It's a little bit of homework, a couple of phone calls. Like, it's very doable. And I think putting it in that mindset of what have you got to lose. Because all you've got to, maybe you go another year and you're at the same place, well, that's where you're going to be anyway if you don't do group. So why not give it a chance and see if this might work in ways that other things haven't worked for you. And if we can have that attitude that says, you know what, what have I got to lose? I could do a little bit of work and if it doesn't help, I'm no different off. I'm no, you know, better or worse off than I am right now. But if there's a chance it could change my life, it could change the trajectory of this behavior and my relationships, well, then that's worth it. And you won't know until you go like, you won't know until you get in and start that process. And like I said, there'd be so many people that have taken that leap that would look at you and say, man, it's worth it. It's going to be a game changer. Don't wait. And so I think that again, mindset can just help us be willing to take a risk because what do we got to lose?

Yeah. Yeah. I really value what Rich was talking about of those 15 minute consults because I think people are asking two questions like, can I really change and is this actually going to work?

Yeah.

And just an opportunity. If I can see the person coming in and they are possibly coming in with those two questions, I get to then share my story about, hey, this is everything I did pre coming into seven pillars and then I did seven pillars. And it's a different trajectory for me. And at that point, it's a, it's an incredible opportunity to offer, hopefully. And in that meeting, when someone is coming in and their, their anxiety is ramped up because they're asking those questions, I think that's the most powerful thing that we can do for those two moments is just, I can offer you my own story of how I found healing and it's available to you as well.

So, Rich, we've been talking a lot about the new group member and encouraging someone who's starting group for the first time. But let's now talk specifically to those who are a continuing group member or a leader. What could, what could we do if we're the group leader or a veteran group member to help those who are brand new to the group and help them be successful.

Yeah, I, I think even what I said earlier is like, lead by going first for the Leader the other thing and creating that safe atmosphere, you know, that safe place for guys leading through your story. But one of the things that comes to mind is I always kind of like to hammer this point is like starting group well is don't skip the introduction.

Amen.

You know, we didn't write the introduction for pillars or really any of the material, but we didn't write it just to fill pages. There's actually key things in introduction, group guidelines, you know, best practices. So walk these guys through this stuff. In this particular group, we cover the recovery action plan, we cover some of the tools and we still have. We usually hear it from like a spouse who calls into us where, hey, my husband, they, he's been in group for six months and we don't have a recovery action plan. Well, come to find out, the leader, they never went, they just open the book, they go right to pillar one. So they miss a lot of the basic stuff. So please, please, if you're leading and you've skipped the introduction in the past, please, you know, that will help set the tone of consistency. You have the best practices, the group guidelines, memo of understanding the covenant. Everything is up front. And if we skip that, it's, you're just missing a key, key piece to the group. And then when there's issues in group, now we know why there's issues because the leader didn't follow through. So that will help create, I mean, right from the beginning, this is what's expected. This is what you guys are signed up for to be in group. And this is how the group's going to go moving forward. And then because that'll go create that consistency, that safe place, the guys have no question this is what's expected going into group. And if they have that, they're going to follow that. And for the, for the long time, just the guys who maybe don't want to lead but you know, been in groups for a lot is model that as a group member too, you know, because they've been through groups, so they know it. So they're able to maybe have more bandwidth to invest in the guys in group and say, hey, you know, I notice you haven't made your phone calls this week. How come you're not making your phone calls? So some of those leaders that say they're not quite ready to lead, but they're doing really well are actually maybe leading, but they don't think they're leading much.

Yeah, I'm just thinking like do everything that we previously talked about and then also that incorporating the Tools in. I mean, for myself as a leader, just that simple question, what does your react recovery action plan tell you to do? That is such a powerful question because then it's taking responsibility off me and it's having them come back to the plan to be like, you know what? I actually don't have anything written for my recovery action plan here. I need to go back and just that document, we started early and it continues. Like, I think I'm on like my 14th edit of my recovery action plan because every time I go through a group, I'm, oh, let me change. I want to add that. I mean, there's just. Even in the past month, I've made some changes to my recovery action plan to incorporate just new things that I want. Wanted to. That I heard in group and I wanted to bring on and put in my own plan. And the three circles coming back to like, what are the healthy things that we can be doing? Like, all of those, they're just vital tools to have as part of the process. And if we as leaders and group members can adhere to just that idea that all of these things, everything builds. It's all part of the puzzle. All of it is coming together to make one complete picture.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think while we do want to be thorough with the introduction and getting people up to speed, there's also a side where I think we can encourage new group members that you don't have to master this all right away.

Amen.

Like, it's okay to just to try to take a stab at it. You know, I'll hear people in group often say, well, I don't know if I did this right. I'm like, that's okay. This isn't a performance thing. I'm not. You're not getting a good grade on it. There's. There's no right or wrong answers. The question is, did you engage? Did you look into your story? Did you give honest answers? And if so, like, that's great, you know, and especially I think when people start and they're trying to get ahold of the faster scale, like, I don't know if I did this right. It's like, hey, if you processed, if you tried to figure out where you're at emotionally, like, that's a win. And over time, as you keep going, as you keep doing it, it's going to become more and more familiar. You're going to get a better grasp on it. But if right now you feel like you don't totally understand it, that's okay. Your, your, your effort is really what is needed, not your perfection or your performance. And so back to what you said, Stuart, of progress, not perfection. Look, look for the steps you're taking, to own your story and to face your emotions, to face difficult things. And in the end, that's going to be really, really valuable whether you quote, unquote, did it right or not. So I, I think as group leaders, group members, we can really encourage newer people in that of, hey, you're man, you're doing great. You're. You're doing better than you think you are. That kind of thing that just helps someone see, like, okay, I'm putting in the effort and over time it's going to start to make more sense for me.

Yeah. Because we all process stuff different. So what makes sense for us may not make sense for them. And, and when. So when they answer that question, it's how they're able to process and think and work through it. This is, like I said, it may not make sense, but it totally makes sense for them.

Yeah. And just to the mindset as a leader, like this could be multiple times that you've gone through. And so this is just kind of like a duh moment for us, but then for the new person in group, this is all new. This is all new information. Rich, as we close this out, if you could offer one piece of advice to someone that's about to attend their first pure desire group, what would it be?

Yeah, the only thing that really came to mind is that, you know, God doesn't want you to live like this. He doesn't want you to be enslaved to this sin. Not to be over spiritual, but it just kind of touched my heart, especially with some calls lately. Guys are just, they're so deep and they're just devastated and just crying out for help. And I mean, if you're hearing this and you're in that spot, you know, again, just reach out and call us and talk to us. And sometimes that's half the battle. I mean, I've heard stories of guys sitting next to the phone, waiting hours to pick up the phone to call. It's. It's painful because you're about to admit that you have lost control of everything. And, you know, again, break going through that like, okay, I finally have a problem. So breaking through that denial piece. And I would, you know, the biggest piece of encouragement is like when you call and you get into group that again, they're going to be met with love and acceptance. Most of the guys, it's like when you talk about porn, use and all sorts of stuff. Even, you know, I talk with a lot of guys that are getting in and out of prison. So they, they're registered offenders and all sorts of stuff. It's like, they're like, well, people are going to look at me different. It's like, well, when you come to a peer desire group, regardless of what you did or how you act out, we're all the same. We're broken men trying to do better and go through this process and we're all in it together. Because if you have one guy in group that is successful, does that mean the whole group is successful? I mean, I would say like, okay, one guy did the work, but maybe the other guy's were just really struggling. It's like, you really want to see when the whole group is successful and they're all connected really tight. It just shows you that one, the leader set them up well and they're able to share. But yeah, I would just say, you know, not to let the enemy hold you back on this. You know, it's because that's the last thing the enemy wants you to do, is to pick up the phone and call. Because right now he's using you for his army and doing stuff that we shouldn't be doing. Yeah, and God's got a better plan for you. And it's just accepting that I'm broken. And to get past the part where it's like, well, how can God use me because I did this? Well, I'm an example of how God can use me after 30 years.

If I were to give a piece of advice, I think I would say to believe that God is going to meet you in this process, that there are things along the way that will really be shaping. Not just because it's great material in the workbook, but because through it, God is going to help you see yourself and your relationship with him in ways that you never have before. And I believe those are really the transformational moments where God illuminates our story in a way that takes us closer to him. And so if you can believe this isn't just, you know, you're not just going to figure out how to stop looking at porn. I mean, that may be what's motivating you to go join group, but really it's going to become a deeper spiritual experience of reconnecting you to your faith in God to see that he's not an angry father who's judging you or condemning you for your sin, but that he's a good father who's on your side and is walking with you in this journey. If you go into group believing that, believing that you're going to meet God in a way that you haven't before, I truly believe it's going to happen and it's what makes the group experience so powerful.

Yeah, yeah. Mine would be, you're worth it that you are worthy of the. If it's joining an online group, you're worthy of the financial commitment to joining the group. If it's an in person group, you're worthy of the time commitment that this is going to take. Your family is going to benefit from this. And I just think even for my own story, just the fact that the blessing that I'm handing down to my children instead of the curse of finding the healing and that that is such a powerful thing that we get to offer somebody is that maybe they're coming in and this is just personal to my own, but I just, I had such a low value of myself that even that idea that I, I'm, I'm not worth this, like God made a mistake on me anyway. And so just to, to rebuke that lie that's being spoken over.

Yeah.

Well, Rich, this has been so good. We know that a group experience, like we said at the beginning, is a pivotal, key part of the healing experience. And we want people to enter group and thrive, to really feel like they're flourishing and they're healing. And I think today you've given us a lot of thoughts and insights on how someone can approach that. And you know, not every group is perfect, not every leader is perfect. But I think if we go in, as you've talked about, with an open heart, with humility and a belief that God's going to meet us and help us change, it'll be a powerful experience. So thank you for bringing your wisdom and for all the encouragement on helping start group well.

Yeah, thanks Rich.

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