424 - The Ideal Group Member: The Ups and Downs of the Group Process

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Listener, I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today you are listening to episode 424. And here joining me as my co host throughout this series is Mr. Stuart Blade. Stuart, welcome back to the podcast.

Thank you, Nick. It is great to be here.

Yes, great to see you again. What many of our listeners won't know is that we're recording this greeting like a couple of almost, I guess a month after when we first did the episode, because as listeners may have picked up on in the first part of this series, I was battling a wee bit of a head cold and didn't quite sound like myself. And we got to this episode and just said, you know what, we're going to record the episode later. I'm feeling much better about how my voice sounds today. And you probably are as well.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and for myself, like I'm transitioning like we recorded earlier and now this is like summer stew with the beard gone, the short hair. And so yeah, when the episode comes on and they see that, it'll be like, oh, a little different.

Yeah, maybe our YouTube watchers will pick up on a few subtle differences there. Well, today we are continuing our series on the ideal group member, trying to help listeners think through how to have a great life changing group experience. What might make the difference between a positive experience and a negative one. And today we had Ashley Jameson on someone that we have on frequently and most of our listeners know a part of the Pure Desire team, but had her on to talk about the ups and downs of the group process. Tell our listeners, Stuart, a little bit about what they can expect from today's conversation.

Yeah, well, I love Ashley's authenticity when it comes to this conversation and just how groups are filled with ups and downs. She brings her own personal story into it. And the thing that I probably appreciate the most about Ashley is when I got hired on with Pure Desire before coming out to Portland, my wife asked me, after meeting Ashley for the first time in person, she says, is she as authentic as she comes across in all other conversations? Having heard her on the podcast and listened to her in times where she's presented and that was just so affirming to tell my wife like she is the real deal in person. It is the same as what you get as what she presents on the podcast and that displays itself in this conversation as well.

Yeah, Ashley has lived the journey for sure. Both as the group leader. As a member, she has seen, I think, the whole spectrum of group members that do really, really well and those that struggle and what might make the difference. And so I know everyone will benefit from her experience. And if you're listening and you've never done a Pure Desire group, I hope today is an encouragement to you to step in. And even if you haven't done group, I think you'll learn a lot about what the group environment is like and what you might expect and why a peer desire group experience is likely different than anything that you've done before in recovery. And so here's a little bit more about Ashley Jamison for those that may not know about her. Ashley is our Associate Director of Women's Groups for the Pure Desire Team. She is a certified psap, a Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional through itap, and has been trained in the Multi Dimensional Partner trauma model through AppSats. She helps churches around the world develop sexual integrity groups and is involved in training men and women to facilitate recovery and support groups through Pure Desire Ministries. She is a featured speaker, author, and has contributed to several of our workbooks here at Pure Desire, including Unraveled Betrayal and Beyond and Authentically you. And here now is our conversation with Ashley Jamison, who sounds great, and Stuart Blade, who sounds great, and your host, Nick Stumbo, who, well, you may have to overlook a little bit of that, but we hope you get a ton out of this episode. Ashley Jameson, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast, this time as a guest. It's good to see you.

I know it's always fun to switch my hats around whether I'm host hat or guest hat. So I have to keep keep in that mindset. I'm here to be a guest.

Yes, well, we want to tap into your expertise because you have worked with many, many groups over the years and many group members, including your own journey. And Today is part 2 of 4 in this series on the ideal group member. We want to help group members think through how to walk through the highs and the lows of doing group because we know there's going to be both. And so let's dive in and talk about that. As I just said, you've walked with so many people through recovery groups as well as taking your own journey. Why is it important to acknowledge that the group process includes both ups and downs?

I think it's one. I think it's good to have an understanding going in so that when you hit the the down the the valley, you don't ask yourself, why am I even Doing this, I was better off before. That was part of my story. And hitting a really low point. About four months into group, and I felt like my husband and I were worse than when we went in. Like, we were doing moo things, like throwing things at each other and cussing at each other. Those were new activities in our marriage. And so I was thinking, this is causing more problems. And I remember talking to Dr. Ted in the airport, and he said, that's perfectly normal. You know, he's trying to get sober. He's taken away his coping mechanisms. You're allowing your feelings to come to the surface and articulating them, and you're dealing with each other face to face. And that was so encouraging for me to know it's very normal to have highs and lows in groups, because then you can just continue to stay the course and trust the process and. And you will come out of that low. I. I think I would have quit 10 times if I wasn't forced to be the leader of my early groups. I'd show up crying like, I hate doing this. I don't know why I'm here. And I'm so thankful as a leader. I mean, some days it was the only thing that made me show up. Um, but now I can say, do not. Like, just give yourself that first 10 months. If all you do is say, I'm going to commit to 10 months, no matter how low the low, how high the high 10 months. Don't quit when you're high and say, I'm good. We don't need this anymore. Don't quit when you're low and say, it's not working. Just commit to the 10 months and then make a decision of what you want to do next.

Yeah, Ashley, I love the. The noticing that both of those parts are real. Like, the high gives us the thing, like, where we can be like, okay, I'm good. Like, I'm good. And then the low. Obviously, that's the moments where we probably find most of our dysregulation, where that draw to quit is right there. And I just appreciate your vulnerability and honesty of, like, where you and John were at. I know for myself, like, one distinguishable moment, as I'm trying to process, my wife is asking the question. She's like, what is going on? Like, tell me what you're feeling. And I'm like this cartoon character with, like, the steam coming out my ears. And I'm like, I'm trying to figure it out. I don't know what's happening. And I go out in the garage, I pick up a broomstick and I just hit the wall and punch a hole right in the drywall. And I'm like, well, this is not working anymore. And I remember I left that hole in the drywall for probably a year. And every time I drove in the garage, it was just my reminder of, like, I'm doing this for a reason. And it was just the reality that those lows are lows, but they are growing moments if we can just allow ourselves to experience it for long enough.

Yeah, it's about framing expectations. You know, I've run a number of marathons, and I don't mean that as a humble brag, but to say I've done enough of them to know what I'm talking about. And I was given advice early on, before my first one, A running mentor of mine said, you know, at some point, it's not going to feel good. You're going to question why you're doing it. You're gonna think you should quit, you're gonna hate life. And that's just part of the process. But keep going. Cause it'll get better. And I definitely experienced that. And I think about, in that metaphor of a marathon, when you know that's coming and you're mentally preparing yourself for it, then when it comes, you're not surprised. Like, oh, my gosh, why does this hurt? I mean, you've been running for two and a half hours, right? Like, yeah, it hurts a little bit. But if you're ready for it and have thought through even a plan to navigate it, you're able to be successful. And you keep in mind that the goal, at least for me in those races, the goal was to finish. So if my goal was to enjoy every step or have fun, like, then when it got hard, I would have been really discouraged because I can't do this anymore. And I think in group, if that's our goal is like, we just want to feel better or we just want everything to be fixed, that may not be a realistic goal in a recovery journey that is like a marathon. And it's going to have parts that are hard and challenging. And if instead we have that mindset that says, I've been. I've been told to expect this. I'm ready for it. And now that it's hard, I'm going to do everything I can to. To persevere, to just keep moving forward. Because I've also been told that it gets better. And the three of us sitting here would echo that, say, it does. It gets better. But if you get discouraged by that and quit, you're probably going to end up right back where you were at the start and be going through the same whole cycle another year or two down the road.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. Nick. To keep on that theme of the high, Ashley, what are some of the common highs people experience in a group that give them hope and motivation to keep going?

There are so many. The first one is just getting into a space. Once you can get over that hurdle of fear that people are going to feel, you're going to feel exposed, they're going to judge you, shame you. When you walk into group and you hear other people share similar struggles, and it's like this, oh, my gosh, people get me. They're putting words to what I'm experiencing as a betrayed spouse. Our language center goes offline, our thought process, our brain gets all foggy. I didn't have a first group experience like that because I started by leading groups, but I did have a first experience of opening up the workbook and reading Diane's words and saying, oh, my goodness, somebody actually knows what this is called and knows how to get out of it. And so that was like my little baby first high that said, I want this. I want more of feeling understood, seen like I have a sisterhood. The other parts for me were with the faster scale. I also am an addict. So it was actually going through betrayal and beyond and seeing so many of the tools apply to me that made me realize after betrayal beyond, I needed to go back and do some addict work for myself. But being able to just commit to something small, like from Monday to Monday, on my faster scale, with my commitment to change, I'm going to commit to not zoning out with TV and popcorn because of the pain. But I'm going to turn the TV off. I'm going to read something nurturing for my soul. I'm going to get good rest so that I'm not snappy with my kids tomorrow. I'm going to write down my thoughts and feelings. I'm going to share with John weekly with my faster scale how I'm feeling to regularly get those feelings out instead of them bottling up in the volcano, you know, which then came out sideways on my kids. And when I saw that I was able to do things from Monday to Monday, just a week at a time, it gave me encouragement that changes could be made. And then that was just what I could do. And then I distinctly remember John being on a trip to Arizona, which is usually a huge trigger. 3 weeks co female worker you know, with him and. And not obsessing, like, not having it ruin my day or chain me down. I just kind of went on with my mom life those three weeks. And when he got back, he tried to unpack everything like we normally do, to, like, calm me down, try to regulate me. And I'm like, wasn't even thinking about the time. And that was probably two years into our recovery process, which, you know, it does take, like, two to five years.

And.

And that, to me, was probably like, the biggest high I remember of I can actually get back to a place in my life and my marriage where regardless of what he's doing, even if he's in the most vulnerable, risky situation again, I don't have to let that ruin my life. I don't have to be chained to that. So those are the small things that. Small and big things that make me want to keep going.

Yeah. Yeah. What I noticed as I think of, like, my first group experience was seeing that there's a plan for change. Like the workbook presents a pathway and all these stages and the pillars. And I think prior to that, my experience, like a lot of people's had basically been support group talk therapy. Like, we're just going to get together and talk about our problem and then pray for each other and hope we have a better week, which hadn't. You know, it's great to have openness, but without an actual plan of change, I think you just felt like, I'm stuck in this ongoing cycle versus seeing, oh, there's an actual pathway here. And then there's a lot of people around me saying, and this pathway works, and I've walked down it and look what's happened. Listen to what's happening in my life. That felt very different than just coming and talking to more people about my problem, because that's all I'd known. And so for anyone who's, like, never been in a pure desire group, I think that's a really important key that, you know, it's not just come together and talk about your problems. It's actually to work through curriculum that's been designed over decades to lead you to a healthier place. And it's very likely that in your recovery story or attempts, you've never had that level of guidance that you'll see when you join a pure desire group. Nick.

I think about in my own story of what I thought was impossible, I was now seeing progress in certain areas and just how much encouragement that was. Where my reality before coming into group was, I was hopeless. Reality Was, I think, best case scenario. In my addicted mindset, best case scenario would be, my wife will never find out. I'll die with this sin. And sadly, that was the reality of the best case scenario. And so as I came in group and started to receive healing, I think that was some of the most incredible moments for me in this journey of just having that experience of fighting just small wins through over time, where, uh, maybe without acting out for a week was the longest I'd ever gone. And then having that freedom of experiencing a week and being like, wow, I did something I thought was never possible before.

Ashley, on the flip side, what would you say are some of the most common challenges or discouragements that group members might face along the way?

There's several of those too. Um, but we need to do a cost benefit analysis, and the benefit totally outweighs some of the. The hardships of it. So on a really practical sense, especially coming from a betrayed spouse, where I entered in as a betrayed spouse, the time that I had to give up to go to group was. Was really hard of just saying, I have to do this every night, for every week, I have to give up an evening to go. And sometimes that was very hard. It was my commitment to the other people in my group, like I said, that made me continue to go. And it would get really depressing and thinking, why do I need to get help for somebody else's problems? The other thing can be we can get stuck in comparing our story to other people in group, and that can become really depressing if we don't focus on the fact that this is not a group to put everybody together that has the same exact experience. It's a group where you can be safe to process and unpack your pain and your struggles. And that's either leading to addiction or the pain that's come out of betrayal. The goal is to help people have a safe place to process this, put in new tools, and to heal from it. It's not about having everybody have exactly the same story. Relapse. Going to group is really hard when there's a relapse, Whether you are the one who relapsed or you're the betrayed spouse whose husband or wife relapsed. It can create a lot of shame, Especially after you've already done some work. You can feel kind of more shame that first or second relapse, because then it's why now I really do know better. Now I really did have the tools, or now my husband had the tools. So will there ever be hope like, remember feeling that way when John relapsed after a year and thinking, whoa, this is so different because before we didn't know we didn't have the tools. And. And we got into group and it was so life giving. But now we have the tools and he's still relaxed. And so then what, you know, and I think what I learned through those first few years where there were some challenges with relapsing, is that the process and the tools and the support and grounding yourself in who, you know, Christ created you to be, do work. And what we can't control is the waves that crashed on our ship. You know, like, we cannot control somebody else's behavior. But having those tools to navigate whatever life brings you is what I learned to be the benefit. But there is still the low. You still feel the pain, you still feel the frustration, but you've experienced the high and the hope to know that that can come back as well.

Yeah. Ashley, multiple things that you said there that I think are just really profound to come back to is the. That trap of compari. Not only did I experience that in my own story, but I see that in groups that I lead. Just that as we're sharing our own story and just not to get caught in that trap. That is a lie from the enemy to sit there and like, have us discredit our own story. Other ones for myself, and what I've seen in groups is it's not happening fast enough like that. That can be a discouraging moment. Or I want to call them like you hit an emotional wall or something you didn't see coming. But most often the group leader would have seen it coming because they've been on this journey before. And that's why I love the fact that our group leaders have been on this journey before. I think that gives them just better. They're more resourced and equipped to help. But as group members are going through, like, they'll have those moments of, I didn't see that coming. And especially when we're talking highs and lows, you can be on a really good. A really good moment. And then there's a crash in the stock market. That comes where you're like, well, that one took me by surprise.

Yep.

Yeah. I think a low moment can be in a long group, like pure desire groups are. There's some parts of the lessons I think you're not going to connect with and you'll feel like, I don't know if this applies to me. I feel like I'm wasting time and in some of that we're trying to self manage our change and that like we're trying to see ahead of time what a lesson will teach us versus just going into it open handed, open minded, asking God to lead us. And I think there's just a reality there again, if we're prepared for it to say, you know, not, not every week's lesson is going to be an aha, change my life, blow my mind kind of lesson. Some will just be like a part of the process. Yeah. And I think that is a place though people can get discouraged because maybe especially they have a couple weeks in a row. It's like, I don't know if this is for me because these aren't applying and somewhere in there you have to have that courage to say, well I believe there are lessons coming, there are weeks coming that are going to be just what I need. And I can't grow weary of doing the work just because like right now, right here didn't make sense for me.

Yeah. And even just remembering, I mean that is a low. But for the person listening who's like, that's where I'm at right now. Um, I've just been so checked out these chapters just remembering that even when you verbally share your answers, you're doing something for rewiring your brain, you're doing something for neutralizing the emotions that go with those memories and listening to others and sharing your own answers. And so just that's how sometimes I feel when I show up to read the Bible. Like I want to be inspired, I want to be on fire. And then I realize I walk away and a couple weeks later something I read had been been downloaded and it came out just at the right time. And so just to continue to know that you are getting something out of it even if you're not having the, the wonderful feelings of, of it. And then same for the leader. I get leaders that say, you know, my experience was five years ago and I'm worried I'm not going to be as effective for people because I don't feel that like passion that I did in those first few years. And I'm, and I remind them it's okay because you just showing up and sharing your answers, it's, it's going to be all they need and want right now. And it, and it is. And so we don't always have to have the strong feelings.

Yeah. Ashley, some of what we've been talking about are like those rough patches that we experience in group. And what do you say to the person who is in the midst of a rough patch, who is asking, or maybe they're questioning, is this process worth it? Is group worth it? Is the. Is, is the pain worth it?

Yes, it's worth it. I guess I, I jumped ahead on the answer because I don't like to look at the answers ahead of time because then I get all caught up in my head and so I like to have them be just fresh from the soul. So I didn't know that answer was coming. But see above, please go anyways, whether you feel like it or not. But then if you are the struggling, if you are the struggling spouse, if you are the one with the behaviors that need changed, it shows so much to your betrayed partner spouse when you continue to do the work, even when you don't feel like it. I think one thing that breaks trust and honestly is so unattractive is when you're saying, I don't really feel like doing this anymore. I don't really feel like I'm connecting with it. I don't really. Because your betrayed partner is saying, I want you to take ownership. I want you to do all the work. I want you to stay the course. I want this to get way down to the roots so that it doesn't sprout up again. And so just keep doing the work. And. And also I found that I needed a little bit of something else on the side. Like I was in Bible study fellowship at the time. And so there was a point probably three years into my healing and recovery is kind of doing both where I was tired of he. It was like white noise, being like, tired of hearing the same thing. I'm tired of using the tools, but you still need to do them. And I did my Bible study so that I could have a little bit of balance in, in what I have in my life. And. And so please just commit to the first year at least. But we need two years because the first time you go through your, you've got the veil on your eyes. It's whatever brought you into group, whether it was being found out hitting a low, your life hitting rock bottom, I don't know. But something brought you to group and we answer the questions and we start to have more understanding and connecting the dots. And the second time through is so crucial because then we read the answers again with a fresh understanding. Our denial is put aside, our justifications are put aside, our shame is lowered, and we're able to really dive in even deeper to another level the second time. And most people don't feel like, going through a second time, they're like, I'm done. I checked the box. I don't want to do it. But when we say two to five years, we really mean it. Because what we see is people end up coming back because they didn't. They didn't commit fully. And so, you know, more than likely, your struggle, your addiction has been going on for well over 10 years, usually by the time we see people come to our group. And so committing to five years of being in group once a week is understandable for rewiring some of that pathway.

One of the things we talk about in the seven pillars of freedom is how the highest motivation in life is actually things that we do for others when we're motivated to help others. And I think that's where your commitment to the rest of the group becomes so valuable. Because if you're just saying, well, I'm just in this for me and I'm not getting much out of it, then it is easy to grow discouraged and maybe want to quit. But if. If we remember, I've made a commitment to that group of seven other men or seven other women, I've committed to doing my work because they're committed to doing theirs. I'm going to show up ready to go, because we all agreed to that. And I think we have felt it when we're on the other side of someone not being committed and they haven't done their work and they're coming in late, and you're like, do you really care about this group? Because do you not see how disruptive that is to the rest of us? And so if we can flip that and say, oh, I don't want to be that person. And so maybe this, for whatever reason this season, is not deeply connecting with me. But I can say, well, I'm in this group, and I'm in it for others, and I'm going to do my work because I want the rest of the group to see that I'm committed to them just like I need them to be committed to me. That, I think, can take us through some of the lean times.

I think of a time where I was out in Wyoming, and we were at a ranch in a valley, and my friend Joe and I decided we were going to go up to the peak of the mountain. We were looking at more like a hill. Our guide, Patrick, he serves as our, like, what we would call the group leader. And Joe and I have moments where, like, there were some rough patches where it was just loose gravel, and you'd lose your Footing and fall. And I think about those moments in perspective of group. Like, we have moments where we lose our footing and fall. But like, thank goodness for people like Patrick who are just. That's the group leader in my mind of, hey, keep going. Cause up ahead you're gonna really enjoy this lookout. And when we pause, I mean, in group, we're kind of like that mindset. We're looking down, feet one foot in front of the other. And we need the group member to give us those moments to say, okay, we're gonna take a water break, but it's 20ft ahead. Keep pushing to 20ft ahead. And then when we get there, I want you to turn around and look at the view. And I think we just need those moments along the journey to realize we will lose our footing at times. But the group, like, as you were saying, Nick, like having Joe there because it was both of our goals to reach it to the top. And if I were doing this by myself, if I don't make it to the top, I don't make it to the top. But because it's a group goal that we're all in this together, I think that's just some of the power that when we experience the setbacks, when we experience the relapse, when you have a group there, that is where it's powerful.

Yes.

So along those lines, Ashley, how can a group member stay engaged and committed when the process feels slow or they're hitting one of those emotional walls and it's gotten really difficult?

Well, I feel like they're, you know, whether it's slow or emotional. So if it's emotional, I would make sure to have. Have good rhythm set up. So sometimes it can just feel really discouraging and yucky after group, because we've just tapped into all of those feelings, experiences, memory, pain we've caused others, or pain we've experienced. And so be mindful of what you do before and after group. You know, after group, you may not want to be isolated. You may not want to put yourself in a vulnerable situation. And so it's okay to recognize those feelings and say group is really hard right now. It's. It's challenging, it's painful. It's okay to call it what it is and not pretend that it's anything else. And these are the things after group, I'm going to do. Like maybe you do something for self care. After, after group, because it was hard. And then the other thing would be stay consistent. I mean, I know this isn't always the group members. They don't always have control over this. But usually when we get into something like this, after years of hiding, lying, or feeling betrayed, it's so fresh and it's so new. And the, the lessons are very, very rich. And. But if we drag the group out, people aren't meeting consistently. The groups are running over time. It can get discouraging. And that's my encouragement to leaders. Like, once a week, make sure you're hitting these groups. Even if three people show up, keep the group going so that people don't start to lose steam because the group is taking too long. Or, oh, we're not going to meet this week because so and so can't meet. And you've just done all this work in your material. And so if that's the kind of group you have and it's. It's not you, you talk to your leader and it's not changing, I would encourage you to get into a group that follows more of the pure desire best practices. Because I left a group at one point because I tried to start it, nobody was on the same page. It was dragging on. And I'm thinking, this is so discouraging and slow to me. I can't even be part of this. So all the things we said above keep going. Even if it doesn't feel great, even if you see no point in it, because there is a point in it. Remind yourself of why you're doing this. You're not just, you're not doing this to please your spouse. You're not doing this just to check a box. You're doing this because your marriage is important. And so make a list of the things that are at risk. If, if you continue in the patterns that brought you to group, what do you risk losing? And. And what it. What it is you're fighting for and working for and is two hours once a week and that, you know, worth fighting for. Your, Your spouse, your, Your family, yourself, your own life. So maybe your ministry, maybe your job.

Yeah, I think of the balance with this, of just as an individual to revisit the why. Like why you're doing this, why you're in this group. But then also my group leader. One of the phrases that has stuck with me is sitting in the suck. And if we spend all of our moments in life just sitting in the suck, then we become these pessimistic people that nobody wants to be around. But if we come in of thinking like, no, I'm gonna revisit the why, then we are always living in maybe like this disillusionment of what is the reality. And so I think it's like just being able to move back and forth from each one of those sitting in the suck became one of those themes. Because my entire life was avoiding anything that sucked. Like, yeah, all of it. I would just move to, like, what felt good. And if I experienced any negative feeling, I avoided those things. And so group was really one of those opportunities just to experience the entire other side of the feelings wheel of any of those negative emotions that truly made me feel uncomfortable to say, I am brave enough now in my story to be able to experience these. And not only was I experiencing them, but I was experiencing them in community with other people and allowing myself to receive comfort in those moments.

What you're saying, you know, sometimes when we're feeling all the things and we're energized to make changes, we. We might have a hyper focus on one thing. Like, I'm so upset I hurt my spouse, or I'm so upset I risk my. And. And that's where we're seeing the filter of all of our answers through where if we're kind of in this, like, duller season, it actually gives us an opportunity to take a wider lens at our answers and really say, hmm, what were some of my worst moments? Rather than being in crisis in the moment. So take, take advantage of, like, digging a level deeper and figuring out what else is under the surface besides the crisis.

There's a reality that group has a rhythm to it. And I think when we're getting used to group, it might be new and challenging and different. But maybe a few months in the routine of our group check in and faster scale the material, the commitment to change, it can become almost too familiar. And I think, especially for those that have struggled with addiction, part of our mindset is looking for the new and the novel and the next. And so in group, I think there's the twofold side of one. We're trying to get accustomed to things that are routine in a healthy way, but also it's okay to engage in other outside sources that might fuel our recovery. And so if one week we're just not feeling it, but it's like, okay, I'm committed to the group. I'll do my homework. I kind of power through it. But then maybe I look for another book that I can be reading, or I find some articles on the neuroscience of addiction, or I find some podcasts that I can listen to. I find some of these guests that Pure Desire has had on their channel. I find their teaching Videos online, and sometimes just getting new information, new voices can help if we're feeling a little bit of the stagnation routines, partly just because we're not used to so much routine. So it's okay to look for those things that might create a little new perspective and a little new motivation that can get us through that time where we're just feeling a little bit blase about our healing.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I. You might not want to go to groove because there might be somebody in there that just, like, rubs you the wrong way. And I think as a group member and a group leader, I've experience that. And some groups feel so easy and connected and you're just all friends. And others you're like, this is not my people group. But commit to it because we can get something out of it. And. And like Nick said, find other things to give you that novelty.

Yeah. Ashley, what role would you say does honesty play both with ourselves and with the group, and how do we navigate that in those hard moments?

If you don't quit a group and are honest about where you're at and your answers, then you're really setting yourself up for more work. Because what happens if we go to group and we've relapsed and maybe we share it with group, but we're not going home and using our recovery action plan, we're not being honest with our spouse about things, then we still have this sense of, if my spouse really knew. And I'm not talking about full disclosure. I don't want to confuse anybody. We could probably drop in honesty versus full disclosure. But if we're not being honest, then we end up feeling like a fraud anyways. At home, we're like, okay, I'm still kind of tiptoeing around certain issues. She asked me what's going on. I don't really want to go into it, so I'm saying nothing. That it's important to learn what total honesty looks like while you're in group and prepare for it ahead of time. Read the articles and the blogs we've put out to understand what kind, what level of honesty you should be having during group. I mean, you should be fully honest. I hope that didn't trigger any betrayed spouse. Like, it's different than full disclosure. But be prepared. Go in with the mindset and saying, I'm going to be honest at all costs, radical honesty. Because hiding and sneaking and minimizing is what got me here, and I don't want that. And so commit to that on the front end. And then when you're in group and you're sharing, it can be so tempting to leave out a portion that sounds makes us look bad or is embarrassing. And we are trying to get out every little bitty bit of cancer of weed that's growing. And we don't want to see you have to come back here. We don't want us. I mean, we do want you to come back, but we don't want to see you come back because your marriage blew up again. We don't want to see you come back because your spouse left because. Because you didn't do fully the work. So I guess that would be my encouragement is go into group fully honest and mentally prepare for it.

One of the primary mindsets I think we're trying to overcome in group is that performance mindset of I'm fine, everything's good, you know, and we're trying to hide the bad stuff and only emphasize the good stuff. And if we're going through a rough patch or just not feeling very motivated in our recovery, I think there is that temptation to perform and act like, hey, I'm, you know, group's great and I'm good, and versus what we can learn. If we come to group and say, I'm struggling with this. I'm getting disillusioned, I'm getting frustrated. I feel like I'm not changing fast enough. You know, sometimes saying that out loud and having other people go, oh, yeah, I've been there too. Like, oh. Because sometimes we can get in our head, like, everybody else seems to be doing great. Everybody else loves group. Everybody else is saying how much they're learning. And I'm. I'm kind of stuck right now. And I think just naming that one, gets us to lay down that performance mindset, and two, gives other people the opportunity to connect with us and to share where they've been. And when we know, like in any situation, when we know we're not alone, it often gives us the very thing we need to grow through that.

I think one of the paradigms that is a shift when coming into group is just how much honesty is appreciated. And not in all. In all facets of life. Not is that this case where honesty is appreciated and when we get to experience group where the honesty comes out, it's refreshing.

Yes.

And I think back to the intimacy pyramid. We had them on the podcast of just that base. Like the honesty is that base of relationships. And especially in groups, I think it's Ted and Pillar. 1. I think it's sick as our secrets to where like, this is that moment, Ashley, as you were saying, like, get all of it out. Like, if we're hiding stuff, we're. That's still shame that has to be removed. It's toxic shame. And we have that. That group is the best and safest place to start being the most authentic and honest version of ourselves.

Yeah. And watch for those, like, little sneaky lies that we tell ourselves. You know, if you. If you had a relapse and you come up and you say, I relapsed, I'm gonna implement my recovery action plan. You know, you're feeling kind of proud for being honest, but, you know, it wasn't just a relapse. You actually binge watched porn for a whole week and maybe did some other things. And so really draw out the honesty with your group. Not in graphic detail, but to try to be honest, even to say, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, I relapse every single night because, like, those numbers matter. We can. We can leave group and say, I still feel a little bit of shame because I. I don't feel like I was fully vulnerable with what happened. And your guys and your gals are going to rally around you and try to help you, you know, and try to help you have a plan to say, what on the escape plan needs to change. What on your three circles needs to change. And the more information you share, the better you can adapt your tools to be better prepared next time. And so just to get it all out there.

Yeah. The German theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer is known for saying, beware the cleaned up confession. That even in. Even though we're confessing sin, we're still trying to look good while doing it. And he says the. The truth is we are sinners, and we're not trying to, like, be okay with that or normalize it. But in the confession, the goal is to acknowledge the depth of our sin so that we can receive the fullness of forgiveness through Christ and others. And I think that's what you're hitting at, Ashley. If I'm not willing to share the depth of it, then people's acceptance of me only goes so far, because then I do walk away going, well, yeah, but they don't know the rest of it. And I felt too guilty or shameful or whatever to share it, and it kind of stays then in that secretive place that is more likely to provoke another relapse or more. Poor choice. So I just think of that phrase, you know, beware the cleaned up confession, because it doesn't help us really good. Ashley, can you Share a story or two about someone who experienced the ups and downs of group and found breakthrough by sticking with it.

Yes, let's replace my name with no, I'm just kidding. Okay. Yes. I had a woman in one of my unraveled groups, and she had a few affairs. And I remember just midway through the group, her feeling so. So fatigued and exhausted because, again, whether we're the addict or the betrayed partner, we only have control over what we do. And so it can be really discouraging when we're doing. When we're doing hard work and our spouse is not changing or trusting us more or, you know, doing what we hope to help us be encouraged. And so we had some offline conversations. And because I've been divorced before, I was able to encourage her to write out a list of pros and cons of whether she walked away, because that's what she was contemplating was just being bad. I don't want to do this anymore. It's pointless. He is not trusting me. It's. It's smothering. It's caging me. And so I had to write, you know, a list of pros and cons of being separated and then a list of pros and cons of sticking with the marriage. And. And I was able to emphasize, I mean, I don't know if this is right or not, but I was like, okay, this is personal, Ashley, telling you I have been divorced. I have had my kids in homes where there's a new girlfriend. And you. They have. They have their own kids, and you don't know what they're exposed to. And just kind of like, give her the reality that, yes, this is hard, but it's also a very predictable kind of hard. And you're doing the work, so just stay. And you haven't even finished this one course. And so choosing to walk away may sound easy in the moment because it. It takes away the immediate pain of what's going on and gives you temporary relief. But what you have to deal with as a divorced single mom and then possibly a new wife in the picture, I mean, it is. It is beyond. Like, you will be walking away from this pain to go into a new pain. And, and not saying that some women shouldn't do that. I mean, I divorced, and it was definitely the right thing to do, but just being able to talk with her. And so she did say, okay, I'm going to commit to at least the rest of the group. And did. And their story was so successful, I ended up getting a card from the Husband just thanking me for saving his marriage. You know, I'm like, I don't want to say I saved their marriage, but that's how he felt. Saving their family, saving their kids. And. And just how. How easy it is for somebody to say, I'm gonna quit. This feels too hard. And then really quick second story would be, I was intimidated because I was brand new, a leader in my own pain. I was 30 years old. And Rodney, who's on our staff now, he was my. One of my pastors at the church and said, I'm sending you somebody. And this lady had been married 17 years, and she came in and was like, I'm getting divorced. The house is already on the market. I've already kicked him out. Rodney told me to come talk with you. And I was like, can you just commit to nine months? And so she did commit to the nine months. They're still married today. The house went off the market. They renewed their vows. I mean, it was just the encouragement you can be for somebody in group in that moment when they want to leave. Can literally change generations to just encourage them to keep going. Like, just give me five to six months. What would it. What's the downside if you're going to disrupt this family divorce? What's the downside of just waiting five or six more months? And at the. At the least, your brain is going to be in a healthier place to navigate what you want in the divorce. Like, just give me that time. And. And so they're all still married. And I feel like that's a success. A success to how we run our groups and offering that space for women.

Yeah, Ash. I just think about all those moments of decisions that we're making when the front. Prior. The front part of our brain is not active and how we can have that temptation to respond limbically. I just. I'll use my own story in this one of the. The ups and downs. I remember for the first time hearing about AVR and practicing. Practicing that with my wife, and it did not go well. And I just remember this initial response of like, well, this is junk. It didn't work. And just that still being in that addictive mindset of, like, this. Why is this not working? Like, what is it? And the reality was there were some. Still some things I needed to work on because I was using that, go figure to manipulate my wife. I was coming in with Aviar thinking, like, oh, I'm gonna do this new tool. But the reality was I had not changed anyway. I was just like, okay, Here's a new tool that I can use. And just experiencing that for the first time to where it didn't go well, but then it just allowed me to come back and be like, what. What exactly was in my heart, in my mind, when I was the. What was the goal? What was I. What was my desire? Was it just to get her to stop? Or was it truly to have intimacy, Emotional intimacy with my wife?

Yeah. I mean, I just wanted to unpack what AVR is for people.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So the A is acknowledge, and then the V is to validate the primary feelings. And then the R is so important to reassure and to talk about the changes that you're making. So don't just say, I'm sorry, relapse. I'm sorry I hurt you. Yeah, I am very familiar with that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry I'm hurt you. And what is the R like? And this is what I'm doing. I called this person. I set up a counseling appointment. I took this off my computer. That is so important for that last step.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like what you emphasized, Ashley, because we've really said it in a lot of our groups that if you can delay in this first year of recovery making any major decisions, because whether you're the addict slash struggler or the betrayed spouse, you are by and large in a very limbic place. You're thinking with your reactive brain. You're in kind of fight flight or freeze mode. You're both looking for ways of safety and being comforted. And there are just lots of really bad places we can go to be comforted or find pseudo safety that we might look back. And we're not trying to control you. We're not telling you what you can do or not do. We're just saying from a point of wisdom of having been with so many people in the recovery process that if. If rash decisions are made in that first year so often someone might look back a few years down the road and be like, I wonder if. If that really was the decision that needed to be made. And. And of course, there are exceptions to every rule. There are stories out there where a speedy decision must be made because of the circumstances. And I would just say if. If that's where you think you're at, that. That you can't just pause on that decision. Be sure to get the wisdom of other people. Make sure you're conferring with others to say, you know what? I'm in a place right now where I am really hurt, and here's what I think is the right decision. I just want to make sure. Do you agree? Is that I'm making a good decision, or is this just my pain driving me? And I think friends that care about you can help you discern that. Of, oh, no. The situation you're in. This is, you know, when there's toxic behavior and abuse or there's a pattern of affairs and things that are. There's not any willingness of change in the other person's part. There's. There may need to be big changes in that first year. But again, if you do that with wisdom and just to try to ask of people you trust, am I just letting my fear or my hurt draw this drive, this decision, or is this the right thing for me to do, then I think you'll be far more likely to make a decision that you can live with and feel good about for, you know, the rest of your life.

Yeah, definitely.

Ashley, as we're. We've covered a lot of ground. What's the thing that you want people to take away when they feel discouraged or tempted to give up in this process?

Don't. Just stop it. I'm gonna take it from. I have been divorced before, and I have been in my current marriage for just about 16 years and navigated so many ups and downs. And I will say, not that it's a. Not that it's like. I'm not saying this as a martyr or. Or anything like this, but I have. Even in the downs, I have written some of my best content and been able to help other people and learn so much from it in the brokenness. Like, my relationship with God would not be the way it was if it wasn't for that first four horrible months of feeling of realizing that I can't trust my husband in the way that I thought I could. Yeah, I. I don't know if I could have got any closer to God other than a trauma like that. Maybe it doesn't have to be this trauma, but that trauma made me cling to safety. And so there's. There's so much that we can learn even in the pain. And I know that sounds cliche, but it's biblical. Like, we learn and we grow in the pain. We can do so much for others in the pain. Just saying that I've been there. I truly understand, like, the amount of people we're able to help and influence and encourage because we've been there and we get it and we don't want other people to experience that. So I don't know like look for the silver lining and then also have that other part of what can you do for self care while the, while you're in this hard part, what do you need? And just to keep going, like to say, I'm committed to this process and I will trust the process and I will at least finish this process.

I think that's what I would close with is to say, you know, we've kind of camped on the challenges, the downs, because I think that is where people need more encouragement. But let's not forget this episode is about the ups and the downs, the highs and the lows. And, and that's the perspective I think we need to keep, is that moving through the lows is because we believe the highs are coming, because better days are ahead of us, because the ups are there. And I would say, you know, in my story, and I'm sure you guys would agree, some of those highs, when you're feeling a deeper connection to God or group members or a spouse or you're, you're more self aware of what's driving you than you ever have been. I mean, some of those highs I think are beyond compare in terms of they're so unique. And I'm not saying it's like it's a greater high than when my first child was born or something like that. I mean, that's a totally different experience. But there are places in recovery that like, you're just not going to experience any other way. And it's getting through the downs that brings more of the ups and the highs. So keeping that perspective in mind can give you all that you need to get through a difficult season.

In flying in to Portland this trip, I think the pilot might have been just showing off in the way in which we approached Mount Hood and just got this beautiful view. And Nick, as you were saying, like the highs and the lows, those highs are incredible. But when I look at Mount Hood, the tree line is I don't know how many thousands or hundreds of feet, I have no idea. But life was not meant to exist up on that high. And so just to have that reality like that we're going to stay up there, is that, is that realistic to think that that is the achievable place, but just to be able to go up and down, up and down, up and down and just have those experiences in life. And then as cliche as this sounds like we're talking about a moment in the story that is the bigger story. And when we look at that, not only, I mean, just in the preface of our life, but in the preface of eternity. If we can come with a mindset that what we're dealing with is a very small chapter in this, in the book of our life. Let's not throw the book away because of the one chapter.

Well, Ashley, thank you for sharing your both your own experience and your expertise in helping many others. I know it will encourage listeners to have a healthy perspective if they're joining group for the first time or maybe going through for the third, fourth or fifth time. It's healthy perspective that we all need to keep our eyes on the goal of transformation and healing and controlling what we can control without getting caught up in whether our spouse or others around us are doing what we wish they were doing. It can be an empowering journey. It can be challenging for sure, but it's as we move through those challenges that it paves the way for the good seasons and the highs that are coming. And so thank you for sharing. It was great to have you on the podcast again.

Yeah. Happy to be here always.

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