425 - The Ideal Group Member: Getting Help Beyond Group

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Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors and healing from betrayal trauma. Today is episode 425, and here joining me as my co host throughout this series is Mr. Stuart Blade. Stuart, good to see you back again.

Hey, thank you, Nick. It is wonderful to be here, that's for sure.

Awesome, awesome. How's everything in your world these days?

Well, this will be way in the future that we're listening to this, but hopefully by the time that we're listening to this, we are relocated into the Tennessee. But at the current moment we are packing up our home in Illinois.

Yes, the Blade family, part of this wonderful crazy adventure of pure desire, moving to the Nashville, Tennessee area. And yes, for our listeners, by the time they hear this, we should be operating out of some offices there as listeners may know if they tuned in last week. Today is episode part 3 out of 4 in a series that we're doing on the ideal group member. And I've got a bit of a cold in this series, so I don't sound real great, but Stuart, you sounded great.

Thank you.

And today's guest, Mr. Tyler Chinson, is also a great guy. He sounds great.

He.

He's our clinical director and we had.

Him on today to talk about getting help beyond group to understand those times when the group experience as powerful it is and as meaningful to have peers who are on that journey with you. There are some times when we need a little bit more expertise, someone who understands this journey at a deeper level and that's reaching out to a counselor or a clinician. And we talked with Tyler today about why and when someone in their group experience might reach out for additional help. Stuart, what. What do you think our listeners will take out of today's episode?

Yeah, I think my biggest takeaway is how much they complement one another and so we can see them. One of the false realities, or maybe a myth, is that they are in competition with one another, that counseling and group have two different goals. And what I think the conversation today displays is just how much individual and group experiences can partner with one another, complement one another, and just provide a way to go deeper into one story.

Yeah, when a lot of people ask me about pure Desire, I describe us as being a two winged organization. That one wing is groups and the other wing is counseling. In today's conversation, I think people hear that of the group environment is essential in its own right. And regard because of that community feature. But counseling so often is also a needed piece to go to that deeper level to understand things that maybe there's not time to process or unpack in the group experience. But with a counselor, you're able to go to those places and walk through things with a, like I said, a trained expert who really understands what to look for, how to guide you. And the two really can work deeply in connection with one another. And I think listeners will pick up on that today. So a bit more about Tyler. As always, Tyler is a suave guy and so you may want to check out his background on the YouTube channel if you're listening to this only. But here's a bit more about Tyler Chinson. He is our clinical director here at Pure Desire Ministries. He is a certified sex addiction therapist, a CSAT through itap, and also a licensed marriage and family therapist. He has a Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy from George Fox University and is one of the contributors to our marriage workbook here at Pure Desire called Connected Building a Bridge to Intimacy. And if you've never checked that out, would highly encourage that you grab a copy today and discover Tyler's contributions to that workbook. And so here is today's conversation with Tyler on getting help beyond group.

Tyler Chinson, welcome back to the podcast. Good to have you again.

Thanks so much, Nick. It's always good to be here.

Yeah, I know our listeners enjoy hearing from you and the expertise and yeah, just the great Phoenix, Arizona vibe that you bring for those that get to watch on YouTube. They understand what I'm saying.

I love it.

So in this series, Tyler, we're talking about the ideal group member and really trying to coach people up on how you can have a very positive, life changing group experience. And sometimes that means getting help outside of group, which isn't always easy. And for some people the idea of counseling or therapy can be intimidating. And so today we hope to, you know, destigmatize a lot of that and just help someone process. When would they really benefit from getting additional help? And so let's start there. We know the support groups can be incredibly healing, but they have their limits. So how can someone tell when they might need more personalized care or one on one support like from a counselor?

Yeah, Nick, it's not uncommon when someone will show up on the doorstep of Pure Desire and life feels out of control. And oftentimes that group setting is very supportive and encouraging and helps facilitate equipping the individual to gain order in their lives. But not always Sometimes just having a professional voice close by, someone who has been down this path multiple times, been in this field 15 years, and not all group facilitators, not all group members have had that level of experience. And so I would say to gain order in one's life is really important. And again, group can help facilitate that. But sometimes to get the individual over the hump, if you will, is helpful. Another thing that comes to mind, related. Another aspect related to seeking outside help. When an individual feels like the only outlet they have is group to offload their burden and share what they're experiencing in life, that would be an indicator to me that they. They may want. Want to seek additional help because the group is not really created to. To meet that need in its entirety.

Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point, Tyler. Especially like, as people are unpacking their stories in group, like, as. As they're doing that sometimes like that two hours just isn't nearly enough for an individual. And like, those might be those telltale signs that there's just more to their story, that as they're progressing and maybe been in group for a little while, they're learning and discovering more and more about their story, that this is a perfect opportunity to dig deeper into their story of finding out why.

Yeah, well, and we say it right in the group memo of understanding that I recognize my group leader is not an expert. They're not a counselor. I mean, once in a while, people are in a group where a counselor is leading them, but more often than not, in a peer desire group, you're being led by another volunteer that has experienced some life change, and they're being vulnerable and real about their story, which is so valuable. But I think there's tremendous benefit from hearing from someone that has made this part of their life. Study is really work towards being an expert, if you will, in this area. And I would say, especially if someone feels skeptical about the group process. And can it really help me, hearing from a professional counselor or therapist that knows their stuff, has been trained in it, can reinforce, I think, a lot of the messages that you're hearing in group and maybe solidify that, okay, I'm on a legitimate path. I'm doing the kind of things that my counselor would recommend I do, and our group is doing it. And we feel tremendous confidence about that because we know that peer desire groups have really been formulated from that clinical perspective, from our team of counselors that have been informing it all along the way, so that there's really meant to be this symmetry between the two but you know, early on you might not have that confidence of like, is this group really what I need and why are we doing all these steps? And so in that regard, talking to an expert in the field can be a game changer.

Yeah, absolutely.

One thing that I will often say to say callers, consultations, people just exploring peer desire as an opportunity for them to heal and gain traction in recovery. I'll tell them that the group work will take them, we'll say 10 meters deep, take you pretty deep in the recovery work, that clinical work can take you a hundred meters deep to a place that you may not be able to explore in that group setting.

Yeah, that's great. That's a great analogy. Thank you. Tyler, what are some of the specific red flags or cues that are oftentimes subtle that need to be noticed by group members that suggest that they would benefit from some of that deeper work that you're referring to more specifically, like with a, a professional counselor, a coach or a spiritual director?

Yes. Sometimes a group member can get stuck in a loop, in a loop, and that loop may be negative selft talk, could be a sense of resentment, anger, fixation on their spouse or partner. And in, in those cases it's, it's really important that we help that individual get beyond this loop of unhealth, something that's very familiar to them and they might not even recognize they're in that loop. Another thing that I would point out as some, as a red flag would be the lack of spiritual awareness. We recognize that spiritual component is super important for healing, recovery, restoration. So that's another red flag that say if an individual is completely removed from that relationship they have with the Lord, we need to jump start that element of their recovery.

I know as I've led group, what I'm often looking for is if someone's stuck, you know, if they're continuing in a pattern of relapse and they don't seem to have a good grasp of why and especially if they're doing the work, because that's a starting point. Sometimes people are struggling to get traction, but you realize they're not really completing their homework, they're not doing phone calls like, well, you're not really engaging in the work. But when you see someone that's engaging in the work and still really battling, it indicates that there's typically something deeper going on that's driving the behavior. And I think they need a counselor in that regard to help unpack some of what might be happening. Another situation I look for is if someone's in significant relational trauma, like because there's been discovery or just a blow up in the marriage, that's difficult. The group is really not made to like help fix your marriage. Yeah, they're there to help focus on the behavior and your recovery journey. But some of that deeper relational work, there just isn't time or space for a group. And I know that's actually bothered. Some people are like, man, I need help. My wife's threatening to leave me and I need to understand what to do. Like, yeah, that's really great, but that's not actually the function of this group. And if we do make that the focus, then that's going to take up most of the group time. And, and those that need to share for their own recovery aren't gonna have that space. So if there's significant relationship disturbance happening, I've recommended someone have counseling. And I think too, if you recognize as you enter group, there are things you just don't know if you could share with your group because they either feel too shameful or too messy or too big, whatever it is. If the thought of would you be willing to tell one safe person is an opportunity to say, well, yeah, I would do that. Well, then, you know, pursue counseling because you might get to a place where you do feel comfortable bringing that to the group. But if you've never put words or language to some of what happened to you and you don't know that you could bring it up in the group, then I think that's a wonderful. The counseling is then a wonderful setting to be able to do that in a very confidential way with someone that, like I said, has really been trained to respond well to that and to provide you some direction and hope and not feel like you have to just carry the secret burden because you don't want to bring it up in group.

Yeah, yeah, that's really powerful. I think about moments of my overreactions and I think about moments of my under reactions like maybe like going numb. And those kind of help me as I think about my own story of how those happened. So for 14 years of my life, I was a firefighter paramedic. And there would be moments where I would call my wife and if she didn't answer the phone, my immediate response was like, something incredibly bad has happened to my wife and it would cause that overreaction where I would just go to hyper vigilant. And it was through processing that that I came to realize there was some underlying things going on. Like, hey, my wife did not get in an auto Accident. She's okay. Her phone was in her purse. But it took time to recognize, like, those parts of me were getting flared up in that moment. The other things I would notice about myself, like lie, deny, divert blame, and justify or make excuses, were some of those things that were my cues that I was not actually addressing the problem. And so, as I have discovered, like, how I would do those things if there were a problem, I would try to go out, like, one of those doors, so to speak, like, the room is the problem, and I'd go out one of these doors. It was in discovering those doors and how I tried to justify my behaviors, those are some of the things that, as a, you know, like that addictive personality. We hear that in group. And that's super helpful to just see our own story resonate within people of like, oh, I did that, like, and I think that's such a powerful thing to sit there and say, I can see like that in my own story. And just how much that has been a benefit to me to go and process those things on that deeper level. As you're sharing, Stuart.

That's a great point. And sometimes to hear our spouse or significant other point out certain behavior in us, it's harder to receive.

Yes.

But within a group, it's like, okay, these guys are perhaps more objective. They don't have the emotional connection to me, and I can hear and receive from them in a way that I might not be able to hear and receive from my significant other.

Yeah. Doesn't cause us to have fight or flight. Yeah.

Yeah.

So, Tyler, in the recovery world, there's a lot of options available to us. There might be mentors or friends in the church that we could meet with. There might be people who have gotten their coaching certification all the way up to people who serve as counselors and therapists, spiritual directors is another one. So how might we discern? What if I could put it as level? Like, what level of one on one care do I need? Is it okay if I just, you know, go hang out and have coffee with a mentor from my church? Is that sufficient versus when do I need to be in, like, expert counseling with someone that's trained in this field?

Well, I think to be objective, to step back and to be able to look at the problem list, to be able to look at those folks that I have hurt through my behavior, to be objective about how, in the case of the betrayed spouse, how he or she has been injured. And that would help direct the level of care. Because the folks that you did mention, Nick there's varying levels of care and support, expertise and skill in providing that. The mentor is essentially a person, hopefully, who has gone before and has experienced what you're walking through. They know that journey, they know the steps, and they speak the language of recovery. Whereas a coach, as you mentioned, can be certified. Hopefully they're certified in a chosen field. And we would lean toward sex addiction or betrayal trauma recovery. They help with life skills, relational skills. They can be that accountability person as well. They offer tools and resources for recovery. A counselor, professional counselor, typically has a graduate degree, master's degree in some form of counseling, mental health psychology. They're usually more familiar with that world of mental health than the others. And they certainly operate within their scope of competence. And that's really important to do. And that may be a boundary that some of these other folks may not be fully aware of, operating within their scope of competence. And I would say a spiritual director. They're that skilled guide in matters related to spiritual health, well being and development. Really, we could use support from all of these folks in some phase of our journey.

Yeah, I think that's such a profound statement, that last one. Like, we could use help from all of them, because I can hear there is helpful components to all of them. And then it also presents the double bind of, okay, we have, let's say I have a mentor and I requested a gentleman at my church to be my mentor. About. I came on staff there for five years before joining here at Pure Desire. And I just said, I need a mentor. And in that area, he has been tremendously beautiful. I asked him, I said, I don't read dead authors. Help me read dead authors. Let's read dead authors together. But there is like that lane, like the scope that you were talking about, like, they all have that lane. And then I would ask myself, like, with the healing that we're pursuing and the recovery journey that we're on, are they helping me achieve that goal? And in some areas they are. But in some areas they're getting me to the point that is, this is the point that they can take me to. And then we might have to look at, like, what is the next step to make me to provide that next step that I'm looking to go to in this regard.

There is, I think, some value to say anything is better than nothing. And so if you have someone around you that you know and trust and believe would have compassion and some level of understanding in this area, I think it's worth starting there. And I, I do know that many people struggle With I don't even know where to go for counseling. And we've definitely seen that to meet whether it's a counselor, a coach, or even a mentor that really is not versed at all in the language of recovery and particularly the kind of recovery that we are emphasizing with this biblical base, but also the clinically informed and an understanding of the brain and addiction. Like if that's not someone's world, I would say there will be an extent to which their input might be limited in regard to your recovery. And so we've just heard a lot of bad advice out there from people that are not informed or this hasn't been their issue. And so they're kind of dismissive of, well, just don't do that. And if you're in a one on one with someone that's like that, you might actually find yourself being more discouraged than helped. And so I think to look for someone that is versed in this area and then it's kind of looking at, well, what are my needs? You know, to me, I think a mentor is more like that peer to peer support. It's someone kind of walking the journey with me. A coach might be the, the person that helps me stay disciplined of like how do I make sure I organize my life in a way that I'm prioritizing recovery. Because I think that's what coaches are skilled at is like being that life coach that helps you organize life. Well, if I realize that my need is really reconnecting in my relationship with God and growing spiritually. That's what a spiritual director emphasizes.

Yeah.

And if it's going deeper into my trauma story and relationship healing, I mean, I think that's where counseling and therapy is a, as a deep necessity. So some of it may be just analyzing like right now in the season I'm in what is most needed and whatever it is, be willing to pursue that because sometimes we do use. Well, I don't know anyone. It's like, well, have you looked online? Like, did you type in Christian sex addiction counselors around? You might be surprised how many names come up. Because thankfully it is a growing field. More and more people are getting their CSAT licensure and there, there may be more opportunities around you than you thought. So just because you haven't heard of them or don't know them personally doesn't mean they're not in your area.

There are some great resources and we can touch more on this in a little bit. But like almost like a clearinghouse of counselors, of coaches, the AACC provides that, as does focus on the families. And obviously, we endorse pure desire. We know our programs work, our groups work. But yeah, like you say, Nick, there are opportunities out there and there are people willing and passionate to help and skilled and equipped. For sure.

Yeah, Tyler. So, as Nick just shared, like some of us can, we're doing the work that has been advised to us. But how do we move from a place where we're not just doing what's been told to us to do, but actually, like, doing it, and we're processing it, like, as part of our. Like we're owning it, to part of our own recovery journey?

I would just encourage a group member to integrate the work of recovery daily. I mean, we read that in our resources. It's. It's easier to. It's easy to skip over, though, and life gets busy and we don't make it a priority. But if. If we're really integrated in the work, talking with others about the progress, what we're discovering along the way, that can be very helpful in essentially renewing the mind and processing differently, acquiring the skill and the techniques to respond differently than we once did. Yeah, I would just encourage a daily integration of the work, renew the mind in recovery.

I think there's an element of what I would call experimenting, and I don't mean like, we're experimenting with, you know, wrong behaviors or anything like that, but I mean experimenting in the sense that. That experimenting is to try and to fail and to keep trying and to fail and learning and growing from the trying. And because we haven't done recovery, if we're new in it, there needs to be that willingness to just say, I'm going to sit with my work. I'm going to be willing to pause and slow down and turn off the TV or other devices. And I'm just going to be present with my story, present with the questions, and I'm going to think deeply. And if something comes to mind, I'm going to write it down and process it. Maybe it's not the right thing. Maybe it is. I don't really know. But if I have this mindset that says, I'm experimenting here, I'm learning, I'm growing, that will help us do our own work and not just say, well, I just show up at my next counseling appointment, and then what they tell me to do, I go do that, and then I do nothing until then. So as you said, Tyler, it's that daily work, but also the willingness to just keep trying and to do it imperfectly and Even if we're not successful to the degree that maybe as the performer in us thinks we should be. And a lot of us battle that if I'm not, I'm not doing recovery good enough or well enough, like, okay, some of that you got to let go of and say, this is a whole process of experimenting and learning and finding out what I don't know. And if you have that mindset of I'm just going to keep working the pro. The program, I think there will be tremendous growth that comes because you're. You're leaning in and, and being open to things you currently aren't doing.

Yeah, yeah. I think about a known shift in my own recovery journey where initially, like, everything I was doing was to save my marriage and so that my wife wouldn't leave me. And that was motivation for a long time. But that motivate motivation eventually shifted to say, I want this for my own healing and not just because I'm trying to, like, do the job of, like, what do I need to do to make this, like, I mean, if I'm honest, like in that initial thing, like, what do I have to do to smooth this over and make this better? And then it just eventually came to this part of, like, I want this for me. And one of the powerful things that I think is when we ask for advice, it is totally different than just being given advice. And if we're, I mean, this is something we especially like as we're talking about groups is just for our group leaders to ask great questions. And a great question could be the answer that we don't know in our head. Like, if I'm asking a group member a question, I'm already sitting there like, dude, you need covenant eyes on your phone. Like, I'm gonna ask you the question knowing what the answer is. And maybe the better question is to ask the question that we don't know the answer to that brings forth this curiosity. And so how, like, that's my question. How can I do that as a leader to bring my own curiosity to where they start to own it themselves? Because that self discovery is such a powerful part of the story.

It is huge, Stuart, for an individual in group to land on that revelation themselves as opposed to be being provided the answer.

Yeah.

Tremendous power in that. Then they begin to own it.

Yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah. I think in that regard, if we're going to a counselor that is too willing to give us all the steps, well, here's what you should do this, do this, do this. Rather than inviting us to explore what do we need and coming up with those answers. We might not be in a setting that's going to be conducive long term for our healing. Because if someone else is telling us what to do and we just do what they do, then as soon as that relationship ends, we haven't necessarily gained the traction or the foundation we need in our own lives to keep doing recovery. So I think, yeah, be looking for that. As you work with a counselor, are they really helping me come to my own answers? Are they just telling me what to do? So Tyler, in your experience, have you seen what can happen if someone avoids getting outside help when it's clearly needed? How does that impact their group experience and potentially hinder their recovery?

My gosh, I'm reminded of the term Nick running in quicksand. That individual won't gain good traction in the work. If there are certain issues, core issues that are holding them back, that go without exploration. They won't, they won't get progress in the work, they won't move forward. Those, those folks in group are often on a, what I would call a continuum, if you will. From. Yeah, I could use a little bit of help, some fine tuning and, and how I do life, how I do relationship, how I view myself, others all up to the place of there's some deep seated pain and woundedness and issues that have driven behavior for decades. And in those cases it's really important to reach out to someone who can help with those core issues. And we love our volunteers, our leaders or group facilitators. Absolutely. They do a spectacular job. Most of them are not mental health folks, but when you're, when there's a recognition of I gotta go deeper in this work, unless that individual chooses to go deeper in the work with often an outside professional, they'll be running in quicksand.

Yeah, yeah, I am definitely experiencing the conviction of this question because I was this individual. I absolutely avoided all of this. My story in 2019, I got invited into my first Seven Pillars group and was really wanted to convince myself that the group was enough, that I'll be good as long as I just do the group work. And it was just the invitation of like just that idea is, is this the best it's gonna get or do you want more? And that was the encouragement enough to. Then I'm on my third counselor at this point and like the part I want to just affirm to people, like if you go to one and they get you down the road, but then like it gets to a point where you're not going further, like, there are other options out there. So I stopped with that one and started seeing another one. That one was an immediate, not a good fit, but the third one was really good. And that was just super helpful for me of just coming to grips with, like, it's okay to. To just be in that spot where I realized I wasn't. I didn't have it in myself to do it. And it wasn't a weak. That was a strength to come to, but it was just overcoming that obstacle of that mindset that, man, I'm really broken if I need more than group. And that was one of the most healing mindsets to come to, is just break through that weakness and realize, no, this isn't a weakness anymore.

Yeah. I've seen two scenarios where I think people avoid getting outside help. One is when an individual is stuck in a form of spiritual bypass is what we would call it, that they're in this. You know, all I need is my group and Jesus and I'll get better. And if the group's not doing it for me, it's like, well, you know, God's doing a work and I'm just waiting on him. And there's value to that. Obviously, our faith is important, and God does do a deep healing work in us. But sometimes what I've seen in that spiritual bypass is actually kind of what you were saying, Stuart, is an unwillingness to really let somebody else speak into my life who's over me or above me or beyond me and really receive their input. Because I'm like, well, no, I got this. Just the group and God, and we're going to be fine. And I think they can stay stuck because they're not seeing some of the deeper things that would really help them move forward in their recovery. The other scenario that I've seen that I think can withhold someone from pursuing outside help is they've really kind of made their spouse their recovery partner that they confide in. And it's great, obviously, again, to confide in our spouse to be close to them, but if. If they're kind of our primary, go to outside of group. That often is a burden that's unfair for them to be carrying to try to figure out how to help us and encourage us and what do we need? And they're. They're not meant to be our counselor. Right. They're meant to be our spouse. And I've. I've said that to a lot of men. Like, you want to do whatever you can to let your Spouse. Just be your spouse and not make them be your mother or your accountability partner or the police officer or your counselor or your therapist. Like that will put them in a role that. That is really not going to be conducive to the kind of marriage relationship you want. And so if, if the reason you don't pursue outside helps, like, well, my spouse and I talk about it like, okay, that's not the same. And it may actually be, like I said, putting your spouse in an unfortunate position where they're carrying a load they really aren't supposed to carry.

Yeah, yeah. Are they supposed to be your rescuer at that point? Are they supposed to fix it? And that's an unfortunate circumstance that. Yeah. Would be unhealthy to enter into.

Absolutely. And there's also that opportunity. Well, not an opportunity, but scenario where she may be re traumatized. They're being put in the position of the accountability person.

Yeah. Say more about that.

I've heard some folks say, yeah, my wife is on my Covenant Eyes report and she shudders at the thought of reviewing the report. You know, it hits her inbox. What am I going to see this time? That's just a terrible position to put her in.

Yeah.

If the conversation is around. This is what I've discovered. This is how I'm growing. This is what I've learned about my past. Those are good things. This is how I'm learning to love you better in a way that honors you. Those are. Those are good things. But again, to put her in that position of accountability person, they're blameless.

Yeah. And what I hear you saying, depending on how that's set up, this could be a daily report. So like let's say a 3pm and so as 3pm is approaching every single day, her body is just entering into this anxious moment. And so that could be daily, weekly. I mean, however, those reports are set up where that absolutely would be re. Traumatizing for that.

And I would ask out loud, what does that do to her recovery because she's on this path as well. If she as she's experienced betrayal, what does that do for her?

Yeah.

Her progress.

Yeah, that's a great question, Tyler. What would you say to someone who feels shame or fear about needing extra help outside of the group?

Shame or fear? Not to minimize the feelings, but I would say welcome to the club. I mean, that's the unknown over there and you're asking me to enter it. Ah, yeah, I understand that. Fear. We often hear about the analogy when there's a physical problem, you Know, leg injury, something, internal vision, even dentals. We would go to a specialist, and there's some fear and apprehension there, perhaps, of what you might discover and what treatment looks like. But still, in order to really enter into health, we have to overcome some of those things. The shame piece, man, I just would want to recognize anyone who has the courage to step forth and say, you know what? I need more help. I need to dig deeper in this, root it out. I would encourage that individual to risk. And there's no shame in wanting to bring forth the best version of you.

Yeah.

Our friend Rodney Wright has said it a lot that seeking help is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of wisdom. And there's humility around recognizing I'm stuck in something. I've likely been stuck in it a long time. Having that group, community, peer support is vital, and I may need expertise. And I think we do battle that mindset that says, man, I'm so bad that I need counseling. And some of that is just to work through that emotion. Because I found in my own story, as I mentioned earlier, that was often rooted in performance. That was rooted in wanting to somehow look good while still acknowledging that I'd been stuck in an addiction. And somewhere in there, there is a letting go of just saying, if I'm going to get healthy, if I'm going to get help, I've got to quit trying to look good everywhere I go and act like I have it together. And that doesn't mean, again, that we go, everywhere we go, we're telling everybody about our whole story and how messed up we are. Like, I don't mean that, but I mean, there is kind of an embracing of, I need help. And actually, that's kind of human to admit. I need help. And maybe for me, it's this area, and someone else, it's another area. But I think if we're a human being, there are places we could really benefit from some expert help. And that doesn't mean that we're bad. It means we're human. And if we can embrace that, we might find a level of care and expertise that's going to take us to a level we can't get to on our own. And so that's the hope of it is, hey, what if you could grow in ways that you've never been able to because someone really has the expertise and insights to help you get there? It's like, oh, well, that'd be worth it. That's not a question of, am I, how bad am I? It's a question of how much do I want to grow? And if I see it from that angle, then maybe I would be eager to pursue help. It's like, man, I want to grow a lot. Let's do this. I'm going to need a counselor. Then I'm going to go talk to someone who can help me get to the place in life. I'd like to go.

Yeah, I don't know. So I don't know if I would form this in the question to them, but I formed this in the question to myself and in my own journey and my story. But I would ask the question of myself, when have fear and shame ever motivated me to move towards health? And so those. When I'm experiencing those are typically moments where I make my worst decisions because I'm trying to hide things about myself. And so, like, those moments are the ones where I want to be curious about. Let's flip the script. And I love this idea of introducing what does healthy shame look like versus what the toxic shame message is presenting to us. And so for my own, it's. It's again coming into that idea that this is not a weakness. I love that from Rodney. This is not weakness. This is wisdom of what does it look like to move in a way that is going to be to my benefit? And what. Let's start looking at what are the benefits? What would be the benefit? What would be. Well, how would maybe things improve? How would you see some positive results if you moved in this direction instead of what are the fears and the shame that are motivating him?

Yeah, I mentioned a little earlier, best versions, Stuart, and that's what it sounds like. Can we draft a script of the best version of who I can become? And. And that's the target. That's what a person is moving toward, what they would like to accomplish. Sometimes we have to think outside the box, especially when we're in that place of shame. Yeah, like, I can't do this on my own. But with helpful guidance, encouragement, we can arrive at that point where we are living the best version of who God created us to be. It is possible.

Yeah, I like that encouragement because my emphasis would be, you are not the only one. You are not the only individual who is in this moment, at this place in time. And so I think that encouragement is maybe that thing that they just need to resonate within. Within them, that there are others that have been down this road before. I am not the first one to. To be so broken in my addiction or betrayal or wherever you find yourself. That someone hasn't been there before.

Well that leads really well into the next question which is to say that if, if we're the group leader or a group member, what can we do to support and encourage someone that is beginning to pursue outside help or find a counselor for the first time? What role could we play in their story?

Oh my gosh. Yeah, my response is exactly what you guys are saying. Do so through loving encouragement and care. Just have a heart to support them well and also for group leaders to familiarize themselves with other resources that are available. I mean there, there may be a situation where the group facilitator needs to refer this person out gently and with care and so to have an awareness of those other support systems that are in place and just depending. Part of the theme of our conversation today is just encouraging folks to seek help and PD is a source of help if trauma is presenting and the group facilitator is aware of that through the PTSI trauma survey in the re here's our resources emdria.org EMDR is a helpful modality, proven modality to overcome some of those react reactions to a trauma prompting brainspotting.com is another I mentioned earlier focus on the family. So just for the the folks in group or the group facilitator just to be aware of those resources and gently and lovingly point an individual in those directions.

Yeah, I think the gentleness and the lovingly is what I'm pulling from your answer because there can be a sense of urgency and ultimately I'm not saying that all points if somebody shares something that's very significant within group and it's one of those things that like there's a harm that has been said of themselves or to others like those create that sense of urgency but most of the time they didn't get here overnight and we can be gentle in that nudge with them to not create the urgency to not create like a panic within the people that we're going to continue with empathy and we're not going to be pushy, we're judgy but we're just going to be those leaders or the fellow people in the group who just continues to remain curious with the individual and by our asking of questions and presenting it to help that self discovery we can lead them in a way that is really beneficial that doesn't cause them to again have that fight, flight or freeze response where I feel like you're telling me to do this. Just another confession. I used to smoke terrible habit but I would justify why I smoke cigarettes as a teenager. And how on earth would anyone justify that? That this is. No, no, no, no, no. I know what you're saying. I get it. But I'm gonna dig my heels in. And I think about that in my own story of how I did that and like, that I have the potential to do that to other people. And how do I not do that? I know what it did to me.

Yeah. There is something powerful about simply affirming a person's decision of saying, man, you are doing the right thing. I'm proud of you for seeking help. I know it's not easy. And to share that commonality of saying, you know, I walked that road, or the time I've spent with the counselor was tremendously helpful to me. And I think when someone's hearing that, and I think even within the group, when we're kind of holding that up as a normalized value, to say, hey, many of us, maybe all of us, at some point, probably need some professional care or help to really walk through parts of our journey. And so if that's, you know, in this season of life or another one, we just want to make that. That's a normal, expected, even part of recovery. And not like, well, a couple of you that are really bad need to go, but the rest of us will be fine. Like, if there's any kind of language we're using along along those lines, we need to recognize that as unhealthy, unhelpful conversation and create an expectation. And I think that may be where the church, I think, thankfully, is growing, whether it's around mental health or, to a degree, sexual addiction. We are treating going to a counselor as a more normative part of our faith experience, where I think even 10 and 20 years ago, there was more of a. All we need is, you know, Jesus and our Bible, and we'll be fine. And we can solve any problem. And again, there is. There is deep meaning and value to our faith, and that's the goal of recovery, isn't just to stop a behavior. It's to grow in relationship with God and others. But we're seeing the value of we may need outside help in that journey as well, and that's a good thing. And so, as group members, group leaders, whatever we can do to just make that a normal, celebrated part of recovery can help someone that is apprehensive about taking that step find the confidence they need to actually go for it.

Yeah. In the Seven Pillars curriculum, I think it's pillar six. It gives a percentage of, like, how Many people have gone through group that would, like, need counseling, and it's a relatively low percentage. I think it's 20 to 30%. But I come to what would. How many people would benefit? Well, then I would argue that. Flip that number. And then, I mean, who wouldn't benefit from just some additional help in some areas that are those deeper areas that we need? And so not all of us. It's not. Maybe it's not a need, but what's. Maybe there's. Just look at it like, what's the benefit?

You know, I'm reminded, Stuart, that's a great point of my grad program. And they required time in a counselor's office. It's like, I don't know if I've got any pressing issues, but yeah, I'll sit on the other side of the table. And I learned a lot just in. In that time with a professional. He provided an outside perspective that was incredibly beneficial to me, helped me reframe the relationship I had with my dad at the time. Just with. With a few encouraging words. It was an awesome experience.

Yeah, that's great. Tyler, what's one piece of advice that you'd give someone trying to discern the right next step to additional support in this season of healing?

Be tenacious for your future self. And don't give up. Don't give up. Help won't necessarily knock on your door, ring your cell phone. There are specialists out there that are skilled and passionate to help. And I may be alone in this. I believe the plan that God had for us, has for us from the beginning never changes. We get distracted, we get diverted. But as long as we commit to recalibrating, re centering on his word and his call, there's potential for freedom in that. Yeah. Say don't give up.

Yeah.

Yeah. There's a quote that says something like, just because we can't do everything doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything. And some of us have kind of that all or non mindset of, well, I can't afford pure desire counseling, or there's no one around me, and so we just do nothing. And this is an area where it's okay to try something. You know, if there's a mentor around you that's done group before and they seem like their life is pretty well adjusted even though they've done group, like reach out to them. If there's a coach that, you know, a spiritual director, like, you may not feel like you've got the perfect setting, but don't let that keep you from taking some steps. And, you know, kind of like you said, Stuart, you had three different counselors, and two are great and one not so great. But I think if you had that not so great experience, make you go, well, counselors aren't helpful. I'm done. Oh, yeah, it may be that counselor. And so an encouragement. If you're not sure where to start, start somewhere. And if it's not a great fit, then keep looking and be tenacious, as Tyler said, Because I think there are resources out there. There are ample people that can help in this area. And sometimes it takes a little bit more effort on our part than maybe.

We want to do.

We want it to just fall into our laps. But if we spent, you know, I remember telling one guy who was complaining about, there's no counselors around me, and I said to him, I'm like, well, how much time have you spent looking? And he's like, well, none. I just don't know of any. I'm like, I bet if you would spend literally 10 minutes on Google and type, you would find, yeah, a lot of options. He's like, oh, okay. And then there's just that mindset of, like, well, if I can't find it, like, it's not, like, right here in front of me, then there's just nothing like, oh, yeah, well, do a little work.

Well.

And how it comes and go for it.

Yeah. How long have we lived with instant gratification that we kind of expect those results? Yeah. I'm a Midwest boy, and I think about fields where you drive by in the spring and you see a rock in the field, and you ask the question, like, how did that rock show up in that moment? And I had no clue that the frost in the wintertime pushes up the rocks and, like, they're found. And I think about my own story. I can really get discouraged of, like, why is that rock there? Like, I, I, like, we've been in this field how many times? And yet something else comes up, and it's not a place of discouragement. It's just the natural process of what comes in this journey. Like, things come up and we can be discouraged of, like, like, you know, just looking back, like, why are, why are we dealing with this again? Like, I, I, I've asked that myself of my own questions, and I've heard that in group members, like, why are we bringing this back up again? And maybe it's not just a bringing back up again. It's just naturally something that has occurred that has brought something new for us to work through. And as the earth naturally does that, how, how kind is God in moments to just at the right time. He does not bring up all those rocks all at once, but he has a way of bringing to the surface what needs to be dealt with in the right season.

The journey of healing is life long. I know a lot of listeners may not want to hear that, but I mean, we're moving towards something and that is the higher ground that God calls us to occupy.

Yeah. Well, Tyler, thank you for your words of wisdom today, for being a model of someone who is here to help and has helped many people and, and providing some of that wisdom and insight on when we should consider help and why it might be good. And I know that for many, many listeners, this will be food for thought and hopefully then a motivation for action as they pursue recovery at maybe another level than what they're experiencing in group. And we've seen the value that comes from that outside help. And so we want to encourage you, the listener, if you're looking for counseling, you know, you can check our team out@puredesire.org or the many other resources that Tyler listed today. We'll have those in the show notes and want to just reiterate that you are worth getting help. Your story is worth having that expert care and not seeing that as a, a negative, but as the opportunity to go further and deeper into your healing and recovery. So, Tyler, great to see you today and thanks so much for being on the show.

Yeah, thanks.

It's a pleasure. Thank you, Nick. Thank you, Stuart.

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