426 - The Ideal Group Member: Planning Recovery Beyond Year 1

Foreign. Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is episode 426, and here joining me for the last time in this series is my co host, Stuart Blade. Stuart, welcome back one more time.

Yeah, it's been great to be here, that is for sure. Yeah.

No, it is interesting because we're not actually recording these in order, but today is the Last of Part 4 of 4 of this series we've been doing on the ideal group member and trying to help people just think through how do I have a really positive, life changing experience as I go through group. And part of that is to start asking the question, what's next? What do I do after my first group? And so today we had Debbie Flanagan on with us to start answering that question.

Yeah. What I take away from this episode is you think back to the beginning when we were with Rich and that idea where you can kind of have people be like 10 months. Are you serious? Like, that's how long these groups are gonna take. And then the reality is it goes by very quickly. And then it's just that mindset of like, what is next? And so that's what we focus on today, is just what is next? What. What does year two look like? What does recovery and moving into the next phase look like after that first group?

Yeah, if I'm honest, sometimes we. We do try to downplay that you might do group for years because if. If you don't understand the power of group and what happens, like, and you're at the front end and someone says you might do this for years, it's like, nope, no thanks.

No, I will not wrong.

And not everyone has to stay in group or will choose to, but many of us experience so much health and community and connection. We're like, I've got to keep doing grouper. I want to help others. I want to take this to my church. And so I think wherever someone is at. Today was an episode that just gives you a lot of ideas of how do you take whatever God does in your life in that first group experience and look at your next step, whether it is for your own good, for the relationships around you, or to help others by choosing to lead a group.

Yeah. And I just think what a blessing this conversation will be to the listener because my first experience with Debbie was after we went through PSAP and Covid hit and they offered these Meetings where you could come and be online. And that was my first experience to meet Debbie and Harry. And I honestly came in hoping to just be a fly on the wall and just kind of like watch this meeting take place. But it was only me and one other person and there was no fly on the wall moment in that. And the real version that we're here, it was just the most authentic version there too. And so they'll get that out of this episode today as well.

Yeah. And to be clear, when I said you're joining for the last time, I didn't mean like, you don't ever get to be a co host again.

Thank you.

I appreciate that. You've done a great job and really good to have you. I meant the last time I get to come back, everybody for this series. So if anyone was concerned, like, wow, I guess Stuart's done.

Yep. It's been a. Yeah, just been a train wreck.

Yeah, no, it's been very good. So a little bit more about Debbie. Debbie is a clinician for us here at Pure Desire and she is a certified pastoral sex addiction professional through itap. She has a heart for bringing healing to men and women who are broken due to sexual and emotional issues. Debbie has a bachelor's from Corbin University and an advanced certification through the International Institute for Trauma and Addiction Professionals. She contributed to our workbook Managing Love, Sex and Relationships. And here now is part 4 of 4 on our ideal Group Member series on planning recovery beyond Year one. Debbie Flanagan, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast. Good to see you.

It's good to be here again. I think it's been a while.

Yeah, it's been a minute. But we're glad to have you on as we wrap up our series on the Ideal Group Member. And we've been talking in other episodes this month about how someone can have a really life changing group experience. And we know that a one time group experience is often not the end of the journey. So today we want to really hone in on what does it look like beyond year one. So let's start with that, that the first year of recovery is often filled with significant breakthroughs and hard work. So how do you encourage someone to plan for continued growth beyond that first year?

Yeah, well, coming into either leading a group or even in the counseling, I start almost halfway through about talking about moving forward and things that either I notice that they could want to work on or just highlighting sometimes some of the benefits about either staying in recovery and some of what their future might look like if they do. And of course, this is different for couples that we do, or the single women that I work with too, is that each of them will have a different need for moving forward and for the goals in their life. So I usually start early about talking about some of those advanced things like attachment styles and relational trauma and things like that, and what they might want to deal with or work on that would be beneficial for lifetime health.

Yeah, I think that's such a powerful thing, especially that mindset that when we finish group, like, there's still more work to be done. Like, this is an 8 to 10. Some of our groups, our counseling is about a year long, maybe less than that. And just that idea. I still come back to what Nate Larkin shared at the summit. I think he was on two years ago. And it was. I'll paraphrase here, but it was that idea that no matter how far we are in our journey, the ditch is always beside us. And just that idea that, like, it's always there, especially for an addict to come in, of just that. That mindset to where it's like, okay, if my last relapse was five years ago, that relapse doesn't take five years to journey back to. It is just continued focus on where we're moving towards and what we're moving, what we're. Why we're doing that.

Right. It's being kind of sometimes being aware of if I. If I've. If I'm under the right amount of pressure in the right mind frame, I can be tempted to move back into that addiction or a relapse.

Yeah. Amen.

And that's just the way the brain works. And speaking of the brain, it's like renewing the mind. If you think about how long. If a person has been addicted or they have been either using other coping strategies, it's a pattern in their brain. And it got patterned over many years because part of their story started probably at age four. Or really their attachment started in age one. So it's just been patterned. And that's how God really designed our brain, was to pattern after our family and to understand who God is through our parents. And then we have a relationship with God. But I think all of us have experienced a trauma or a harmful event in life. And any unrepaired harmful event in our life typically becomes a trauma. Something that we believe about ourselves or something we made up about our value and worth. So then that holds in there and it seeps into our soul, becomes a shame because we're powerless at a young age to make Any changes in our life. So that trauma then impacts and shapes our identity of who we are, our value and worth, but it also shapes our actions for finding self safety. And that's why addiction is there. That's why coping behaviors, codependency, and it turns into the fight, flight and freeze responses. And that's our style of relating. And one of my favorite, as a, as a way to build a basis or a foundation for some of the, you know, for what else we, we can talk about is that all of our current trauma that we experience or current harmful events, unearth all that past trauma. And so until we construct this bridge going back to there, to the beginning, we're going to never really see the war that's going on inside of our souls. We'll always be fighting, flighting and freezing until we address this, our current debris, what I would call or the scars of our trauma, until we look at that, and that's what year two and above are, is about addressing the scars which will always be there in our lifetime. But how do we manage those scars and then create a relational style that manages or contains that fight, flight or freeze response in a healthy way?

Yeah, I think you're underscoring why this is a process that takes time and that even in the first year, if we have breakthrough, there may still, there may still be significant work to be done that, that goes deeper into some of those scars and the patterns in our brain. And even if we're experiencing behavioral change, we may still need to do some of the long term work to really address where it all came from to begin with. And I also like how you said that you encourage clients and group members to be thinking about that about halfway through because then they're really preparing to look at what do I need? What's gonna be healthy versus waiting till group's over and then like, oh, well, now what should I do? Often we don't make a great decision if we wait until then to start thinking about it. So maybe for some listening, you're in the middle of group and you're like, oh, I'll worry about that later. But now is a good time to start thinking about what do your next steps look like.

Yeah, when later arrives, what are we doing? Which Debbie, I would love to get your thoughts on this one. So as a group member is coming to the end of their group, they're trying to discern like whether repeating is the thing for them. Maybe it's doing a different material or leading a group. How does one discern what is the Next best step for them.

Well, I usually ask about their self sobriety, if they have achieved a high degree of it and they've realized that, oh, you know what? I haven't even thought about acting out in a couple weeks. I think for me, in the very beginning, I was like, I haven't thought about it in two weeks. And that was like a breakthrough for my brain to go. I didn't even think about it. And so it encouraged me to go, okay, I can get free from this. I am free, or I need to keep. I like this feeling. So once you've sort of tasted that, that sense of freedom, and you realize, okay, all I did was follow the program I followed and I was accountable to people, then you're going, I think I can do this. So moving forward, they might want to think about, okay, how, how am I, how am I doing in this area? And if I have that sense of freedom, where do I go next in the. And exploring that with the group. Like, what, you know, sometimes being accountable. Where do you see that sometimes? My, my, the way that I discuss a hurt, does that come across angry or do I just blame myself? So all of those areas that you might want to discuss with the group and get some of their feedback of how they interpret your responses to current hurt and current trauma.

Yeah, Yeah. I think that question of sobriety is a great one, because if we're still battling a pattern of relapse, even if it's become maybe more spread out, it's not as frequent. That's progress. But it may show a need that there's still some deeper work to be done. And I've had a number of people repeat group. And the second time through, they feel like this is different material because the first time, it's almost like triage care. They're just trying to stop the bleeding and limit the damage and come up with some of their tools. But the second time through, I think they're able to go deeper into their wounds and the false messages that maybe the first time through they were so just wrapped up in changing or stopping the behavior, they haven't been able to go as deep as they could. So I think that's a good mark. If you're. If you're still, like I said, in that pattern, repeating group makes a lot of sense. But if conversely, you're at a place where you're really able to sustain sobriety.

Yeah.

Then looking at, well, would I go on to, you know, for men who've done seven pillars, could I go on to do compassionate Warrior. If it's a woman who's been doing unraveled, maybe she looks at doing the genesis process there, there may be other materials that just add to our healing or that is where we begin to ask the question, God, do you want to use me to help others? Because as we've said, the best group leader is not the one who's trained or an expert leader. The best group leader is just the person who's experienced their own healing and wants to pay it forward and help others as they continue in their own journey. And that's the other thing I would say as well. Leading the material will take your own recovery to another level as well. Because it's one thing to do it for yourself and then it's another thing to be going through the group thinking through that lens of how do I help others? And it actually will help you apply things in your own story. So don't feel like you have to be complete before you could help lead the next group. If you've established some sobriety and you have a heart to help others, I'd say consider leading because it will take you even deeper into your own healing.

Yeah, exactly. I always look at too when they consider, oh, I want to co lead a group next time, of course I encourage that. I encourage them to go for the training that Pure Desire offers because it's excellent. But then to also consider the time frame that they're in, you know, or and if they're married, what is your husband doing? Is he continuing? You know, each demographic is on a different sometimes like you said, Nick, the first year they might be going because their wife wants them to go. It's part of the their sake, the wife's safety plan. And so they aren't as maybe invested until they start learning, oh, this really does help. This really does work. I get to be, you know, there is a freedom and then they do want to go through it again. And then so their wife feels more like, I think I'll go through and teach at this time. And then for females that have finished unraveled, there's a lot of them have gone through unraveled or at least partway that come in for counseling. They realize it's going to be more their pathway to change and healing is different in that demographic. So it's understanding for the leaders to understand what demographic am I in and how can I best work within this, you know, this and understanding where they are in this healing process and do they have the time commitment to do that? And that's what's good about having a co leader is that, you know, if you're sick one day and it just can't. I just can't go lead a group of six ladies. Oh, you know, what can I, you know, maybe one of them can take the group where the next one. I'll take a loan or something. You, you can fit, fill. You can fill in for each other on that.

Yeah, yeah. I think this provides a great opportunity when we're talking about discernment of like the Holy Spirit. Inviting the Holy Spirit into this conversation, getting wisdom and discernment there. I think if you're married, asking your spouse their thoughts about what are some healthy next steps. Your group leader, asking your group leader, even members within the group. If you have a mentor, ask a mentor. Like, all of these people can be incorporated into this process of like, what is the next best thing for me to do. And so by incorporating that and not making that decision just based on what I want to do is a really healthy choice as well.

There is so much out there too, for facilitators. And I know, you know, when I first started back in 1993, you know, we were using the men's manual and because we didn't have any female work. So female addiction processes have really come forward a lot as has like trauma bonding and those kinds of thought processes that go in for females or for the partner who has been betrayed. It's my belief that a lot of everyone has had betrayal trauma, especially as a kid. And so sometimes in working with the husbands and so forth, I have a tendency to look at their. Where is their trauma? Because it usually involves a betrayal. You know, my parents should have been there. I should have been attuned to. They should have noticed me or I got in trouble and I shouldn't have. Something happened that shouldn't have happened, and that was a betrayal or a rupture to the connection I had. And there was no repair made. So they fall into that, that. That cycle of shame where I'm powerless to make a change about who. Who I am. So they have carried forward shame and dealing with that in your group. So the facilitator of a group should also be prepared emotionally to help really to attune to people and not just have to move into fixing, you know, what does that person do? But to really go, gosh, that's really tough that you went through that. And that's really what story work too is about. It's like people are story.

Yeah.

And this year one is just part of your journey. And it's part of the story that's going to be written forward. You know, you have a story from the beginning that got messed up, I guess, or wounded your soul or your value and your worth and your self perception got shamed and now you're in this process of change and you get to rewrite the rest of the story with God as your author, as a co author, basically. So that's kind of how I sometimes paint the picture of moving forward into year two and beyond.

Yeah, yeah. I like what you said Stuart, about being willing to ask your other group members or your group leader what you're ready for because maybe you feel like, man, I'm going to lead the next group. And they're like, maybe you should slow your roll a little. Like here's some reasons I think that might be too soon. Or maybe on the flip side, you're like, I don't know, maybe I'll just do group again. But your leader says, man, I see a lot of growth in you and I think you really would do great at leading a group. I mean having that perspective from someone else can be very, very helpful. So Debbie, what does it look like in your experience to keep a long term vision in mind for our recovery while still staying present in the daily routine of our healing journey? How do we do both of those?

Yeah, I always think back to the women who, the partners who have been betrayed. Their journey probably is more difficult any of them because they're in the moment and they're in the pain of right now. But getting them to attuning to that pain and understanding it is this a crisis and your anger is warranted in all these things. However, moving forward, when you're halfway through, like after the disclosure process, getting them to focus then on what is it you're going to need to move forward. And that's usually they want him to change or their hope is that he'll change, then I'll be okay. But that's not usually the case. And so I have to really help them going into what they're. Where do they find safety? And usually this betrayal trauma has exposed where they have placed their faith and trust in and that was in their husband's foot fidelity and that belief. And that's not to say that he didn't owe that to her and she owed it to him. But the betrayal of that then compounded all that past trauma as well. That's undealt with. So now she's living in this state of I'm not worthy, I'm not lovable. He doesn't care about me. How can he say he loves me when he does this? And there's a lot of meaning and message taken from those behaviors that are part of her past. So it's leading them now into what can we hope for the future if we had a better sense of self and a better security to know, okay, my safety and security doesn't need to rely on his behavior because we can't control what he does. But I can control what I'm thinking and feeling or where I place my trust. And I can trust that even if I am betrayed, that God's going to hold my soul intact. I'm going to be okay. That's been my mantra too. In the beginning. It was such a shameful feeling to be betrayed and it just elevated all that. So I said, you know, God said, I will hold your soul intact. And I felt like, oh gosh, he will. Because it does feel like my soul's being ripped out when you're betrayed. So having them hold on to that for the future, saying, how can we get there? Is that what you want? And so a lot of the betrayed wives, once they finish some of the work that we've done, go into like untangling relationships about codependency. I don't necessarily like that term, but it's a trauma bonding. And how can I then understand the dynamics of a tangled up relationship and learn to stand on my own?

Yeah, when I hear you saying there is like getting the person to define their preferred future. And if we can have that with a mindset, like that's a great thing. But sometimes like whatever that preferred future is might feel like too lofty of a goal. And then just thinking through our material. I love the smart goal ideas like is it specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, time based? I hope I'm correct. And if I said it, there it is, it's official now. But when we set those goals, are we doing things that are specific, they are measurable, they are achievable and all of those are important as we're moving towards. And I just think like, what is one small goal that we can set to like achieve to move towards that preferred future? And sometimes we just make it by setting small goals to getting us to that point.

And how much of that, I'm sorry, like how much of that is up to me? I don't need my husband or I don't need my wife to do this or that for me to achieve this benchmark. There might come a time where yes, I have a vision of us sitting on the front porch and talking about our feelings and all those things I said, well that's a great vision. But what's it gonna take for you and your heart to be open to that and be able to sit with him and, and hold those kind of conversations when right now you tell me there's a wall up. So that's kind of how I have to shape as a leader, maybe sometimes shaping their view of what's coming down, the possibilities.

Yeah.

So it's controlling what I can control and being willing to trust God with the things I can't. And maybe that, back to that old quote, the wisdom to know the difference between the two of those. Yeah, I can control my own well being. I can find my identity in Christ and not in someone else. But I can't control their behavior, I can't control their choices for recovery. And like you said, if I believe though that I can be okay, that that's a vision of long term recovery, that I can do things that support my growth, that help me move closer to God and others and hopefully my spouse does that as well. But if not, I'm going to be okay. And that I think keeps us in a place of doing our work while still believing that we're headed towards a really good outcome eventually.

Right. It's really okay. So we have patterns in our brain. So don't be conformed to the patterns of this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. How do we renew the mind? And that is we are in control of our thoughts, feelings and emotions. That's part of our soul. So where do we connect those two to God? And I turn a lot to at least halfway through the counseling to, you know, love is patient and kind. It is long suffering. But I know you have suffered for a long time in this marriage and you've been very patient and that's commendable with the heartache that you've told me. But also it's kind. Well what does that mean? How do I be kind and love does not dishonor. So when. So now we get into that realm of how to communicate, you know, and how do I communicate my anger, frustration, my heartache to somebody that right now I'm really mad at and how do I do that? Respectfully. So that's where the big, you know, the big B word comes in is boundaries is. And that's a facilitator too job is to have good boundaries with how they're dealing with their own life. But also boundaries. Dealing with you're, you know, what do I do in year two is. That's a big benchmark to work on is boundaries and your attachment style. Those are the big two things that I think need to be looked at, because your attachment style will always be there, but you can manage it to make. If you have an insecure attachment, you can make it secure. You can have some secure relationships if you work hard.

Yeah, you're leading us into the next question because there's a shift that takes place into that second year. What are the new challenges that someone might face going into the second year and beyond?

Yeah, that is the big. One of the big challenges is the reshaping or the renewing of your thought. Thought process for the person who's addicted. You know, it's an. We. We know that addiction, sex addiction specifically is an intimacy disorder. So there's. They might be able to control the outside, but the inside thought and patterns of relating are sometimes. Well, they're wounded and broken, but not unrepairable. So there's some fixing to do, and that's between you and God to go and fix those things or heal from it. And that's to understand that my thoughts. God says, my thoughts aren't yours. Well, Lord, what are your thoughts towards that woman? What are your thoughts towards me specifically? When you look at me, are you seeing this sinner, this guy that I. A regretful man or regretful woman, and the shame I feel? And so. And that's another challenge is dealing with the shame of the past in that if you have a partner who brings up your past a lot, there's some added shame. So improving communication between that couple is very important. Shame. For females who are addicted, it's dealing with the shame element and being able to open up to another person. They might go through a group and be able to confess that, but when they leave the group, they don't, you know, this kind of like, oh, I'm not telling anybody. There's still that shame. It hasn't been broken. So there's. There has to be a commitment to deal with the shame. And some of that's attachment styles as well, especially in marriages. And that attachment style, though, too, affects our relationship with God because it plays out in that relationship too.

One of the words that I hear a lot in recovery, especially as I think about year two, is the idea of integration. And I think the challenge is, am I going to integrate this story into my greater story of my life? Because I think when we're in year One, we're trying to just fix the behavior, fix the problem, save the marriage. We're just focused on, you know, changing that behavior. And if that happens, which so often, thankfully it does, and we see such tremendous success stories, there's now the question of how will I tell this story? And I think there's a temptation, and I remember facing it, of like, I just want to. I want to be better, but then I want to sweep it under the rug and move on and not talk about it. But if we do that, in some ways, we're like, denying the power of our healing story. And we're not truly walking in healing, because like you said, Debbie, if we're still feeling shame about, well, if other people knew this or if I told people, they might reject me, well, then we're still going to live in a pattern of isolation that really long term is not healthy for any of us. So I think in year two, it's really starting to figure out, how do I tell my story to my family, to my kids, to my in laws, like, what are we gonna own? And that doesn't mean everybody needs to know everything all the time. But there's something tremendously healthy when I begin to own. This is part of my story. And in a redemptive way, see how God works through that. And I feel like if we don't get to that point, we can experience a level of healing. I'm not saying you can't experience sobriety, but I think we'll be limited in the depth of the healing that God has for us if we don't go to that place of integration.

Right? Yeah.

I hear my biggest challenge from year one, year two and beyond is I think about that first year where you're in a group, you're having community, you're having vulnerability, you're having growth. And it feels like one of those mountaintop experiences. Kind of like when you went to camp as a kid and you're like, at the church camp, and then you go home, and then you're not worshiping morning, afternoon, evening, you're not in community or not playing games. You're not having all of these things that are not part of your normal life. And then you go to year two, and it's kind of like that low from camp where it's just coming back to reality and how difficult that can be to experience community, experience trust, vulnerability, being accepted, loved, all those things. And then what does the game plan look like to come home from camp and to still have the tools in place, the community in Place, phone calls, a game plan. And if those things aren't set up, we can find ourselves going back into isolation and just that idea, we're not going to drift ourselves into health. Like that's just not naturally going to happen.

Right. You know, I want to get back to this, that story or shame and stories and how important that, how, how vitally important dealing with, with shame is, understanding what it is and that shame doesn't heal on its own own. Shame needs to be talked about. And until we are willing to actually identify those areas of shame that we have, it will hold us back. I mean I'm in year what, 30 and I just had a major breakthrough in my story and that in doing some story work at age 4, I was telling somebody about a little story about how my dad, how all of us kids when I was 4, waiting at the door for dad to come home and my mom's like get excited, he's coming home. And and so my older brother and sister coached, my two year old sister probably just hide behind the door and when daddy walked in, you scare him. So that was all set. And they're my older brother and sister probably at seven, eight years old. So dad walks in and I go dad, dad, Cindy's behind the door and my dad takes his big hand and puts it on my shoulder and anger and forced me into a little chair and I had to sit there and nobody ever came got me. No, I didn't, I was confused. I didn't, you know, I just remember just sitting there. I don't know what happened after that, but it shaped a part of me that as I told my story with trusted people and with you know, people that go, well you, you were doing what a four year old does, you got excited, you were told to get excited. But that moment shaped a huge part of my personality. And for years I hated who I, I hated my animations and my, you know, my, I can get very passionate and excited. Yeah, but I hated that. But when this gal said I think God, God likes your personality, in that moment of vulnerability in telling my story, I hid my hands in my face and I just wept. And it's like this shame was peeled off. God does really like that. That's why he created me this way. But it was a revelation at the right time. And that's the importance of telling your story in context with their witnesses that saw that little girl who was sitting there with nobody to attune to her. So dealing with your shame will be up to year 30 probably.

Yes, that's so cool to hear Debbie. Just how God continues to bring us fresh revelation. And we've talked a lot about how group is like peeling back layers of the onion and there's usually more layers. And after year one, we're like, well, I haven't acted out in a while. I think I'm good. We might miss out on a lot of what God would still lead us into. And on the flip side, I think for some people, maybe at the end of year one, they're finding some sobriety, but recovery can start to become a little routine. They do the group, they do the lesson, and it might even for them feel a little ho hum or like they've plateaued. So what do you say to someone? What steps could they take to reignite their passion and momentum for recovery after a year of doing it?

Yeah, well, I like metaphors and I do a lot of. I find something they might be interested in and ask them about, you know, like, you know, I'll just take myself as an example because I can't think of a client right now. But metaphors. A metaphor I use with betrayed wives. You know, the tsunami came in and wiped out your village. This whole world you had built in your marriage is wiped out. And all that's left now you go into a tsunami zone or a fire zone, there's just debris all over the place. And that debris is what we have to sift through. And that's part of your relational styles now. Yeah, your anger is warranted, but your fight, flight and freeze, all that trauma is part of the debris and you're going to have scars. But now let's go in and what do we need to do first to rebuild that village? So giving them some context to their story about how it's a rebuilding process, that you need fresh material to come into your life. And now you get to choose. Are you going to go with a Cape Cod or are you going to go with a two story Victorian? What do you want your new house to look like? You need a road, you're going to need to rebuild. But it starts with the rebuilding of some of those quick things. If my husband's in group, I can have a little bit of safety. I know he's in accountability, I start with that. So I use some sort of a metaphor. And I like archaeology, so I think of myself as an archaeologist. And when I'm in trauma mode and I'm looking through their layers is our life is a layer. It's layers and layers. And you don't just get a backhoe in there and try to find the bottom of the pit and hope to find something. Because you're going to damage. You're going to damage the treasure of who you are unless you go down layer by layer and finally sift through. Because there's treasure in there. Yeah, There's a lot of debris and junk that you're going to have to get rid of and move aside to find the treasure. And I think that looking at those kind of metaphors in your life really give you the momentum. Okay, what stage am I in? You know, I might have to stop some construction now because I can't decide what color carpet I want. I'm going to have to stop for a minute, think about it, and pray about that. Maybe I'll take two weeks off or a month off between groups or something and think about where to go next. And it just gives them something solid. I know, because Jesus always used these metaphors, too, or stories about a person's rebuilding or excavating. That's why I try to keep them motivated that way, because it motivates me.

Yeah, yeah. I think about just the grace that we can give in those moments, because the plateau, I would say, is very natural, and it's a current even in our. I came from a small group's pastoral background, and just that idea that small groups have a trajectory when they first launch. Everybody's. It's that first group experience, and then it naturally plateaus, and we need to make some changes or make. Bring some additions in. And so, like, that is that mindset for me. Like, what's a change that could be made? What is something that could be added in? This is one of those opportunities to look at different spiritual formation practices that might come in as we're incorporating. Just. We've been through the group. We've done recovery, but maybe there's a different component of prayer or fasting or silence and solitude that, like, could be incorporated. That might not be as strong in our material. That would be an outside resource that we could look into.

Absolutely, yeah.

I love what you're saying, too, Debbie, about that metaphor of the layers, because I think if we approach a second year to say, okay, Lord, what. What new layer do you want to take me to? What new focus might I have? What. What's something that maybe in the first year, I just kind of scratched the surface of it, but you're going to take me deeper into that. Having an expectation that year one won't just be. I mean, year two won't just be a replay of year One more of the same that. That there are new places to go, there's new things to learn. I mean, you said it a little earlier, at year 30, still learning things. And if we have that belief in front of us, I think then we can enter into a second year of recovery looking for what that layer is, and that it will be a different season than the one we were in last year.

Yeah. I think you become more sensitive to yourself and more willing the deeper you go, more willing to surrender some of those things over to Christ as well. It's like, I see that in me, and I don't know if I really like that part of me. You know, my. When my. I start seeking training, you know, I mean, recovery pretty early. And my biggest thing. Well, of course, was the addiction. But once that that was over, I still saw a high level of hostility I carried, you know, in being critical or judge, judgmental. I said, I don't like that about me. Why. Why do I do that? And that set me on a new layer. What. A new, you know, roadmap of where do I go to deal with this? What do you. What do I need? Maybe, okay, I'm going to lead a Genesis group. Just in my house. I had a couple ladies, and we did that. And it's willing. It's just your willingness to say, here's the kind of person. I always had this thing in my own therapy. I want to be one of those people who are just relaxed and easygoing, but I just couldn't do it. But I knew it was in me. It was a desire, but I don't know why I couldn't do it. But until I started digging at those layers, I realized it was because I carried a lot of scars still from the wounds that I carried from childhood or some of the wounds I experienced even in adulthood that shaped my perceptions and viewpoints. And so until I really dealt with all that, then I'm like, I am relaxed and easygoing. I mean, I try to be, but, you know, I can get nervous and excited, but I know how to calm myself down a little bit more.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Debbie. What I love that I hear in all of these, you have done this in community. None of this has been just like you by yourself. And so that leads to the question of, like, what does community look like after? And as we're moving on, we're in year two, year three. What does it look like to foster that community to where that is part of our ongoing recovery journey?

Yeah. If you're married, that ongoing community might Be you know, getting plugged in somewhere in your church. Another finding at least one other couple just have a Bible study with or something to just who is being able, I think also being able to evaluate whether a person is trustworthy in your life. Who are those? In our Brene Brown work, we use the metaphor of a marble jar and people earn marbles. You know, they do something special for you or they come through for, for you, oh, they earned a marble. But oh, then, then that person gossiped about me. I have to take those marbles out. So there are people in our lives at different levels. And so when I can figure out, okay, that person is trustworthy to me because they're a vault, they hold my information private. I can be in community with those people. So learning to be discerning about who you invite in and if you're single, it's really staying connected to those people that you have grown with in a sense those group members and having at least three or four people in your life that know your story, that are willing. And a lot of the ladies that I have dealt, that I have worked with, that did venture out and talk about their addiction with their sister in law or something that they, they did grow, they did, they saw, oh, it wasn't as bad as I thought. She was very open and loving toward, towards me. It didn't change their view of me. And that, that's what I think the big fear is tell somebody about my addiction or my behaviors that they're going to see me differently. And I think once they, once you realize that a person isn't judging you, it's really great. I was lucky enough to marry somebody who's in the healing field too. So that was a good community for me. Iron sharpens iron and we sure did over the last 20 something years.

I appreciate that insight that there will be different categories of people, if you will, in our life. Some that we can entrust with our whole story, with every part of it and others that, you know, maybe we just share a little bit of it so that we feel like we're being authentic, we're not hiding behind, you know, performance or acting like we're better than we are. But that doesn't mean we shared everything because maybe they're not safe with some of those details or, or, or they won't hold our story well. And so we just know like. And I think there's. That discernment comes in in years two and three of who can I really entrust with the deep things and who are those that I don't know if they're able to receive that. Another piece, I think of community as people look at beyond year one. It's the need for people in my life that whether I'm going to do another group or not, I've said to people, like, if you decide you're not going to do another pure desire group, that's fine. But my question would be, where will you have safe community that you can be completely real and honest about who you are, what you're going through? If you've. If you're struggling or having a relapse, like, where will that place be? And if you don't know where else that will be, then I'll say that you should do group again. Even if you don't necessarily think you need the material, you need that community of people around you. And if you have it somewhere else. And sometimes group members do, like, you know what? I've got these three friends and we meet weekly and I'm bringing my whole story to them, like, well, great. But many people like, this is the only place in my world I can be honest to this level. It's like, well, it's. Then I'm not sure you should give that up because you need this level of community. Whether you're in active recovery or not. You need that kind of community in your life.

Yeah, exactly. When I talk about, you know, you talk about the three circles, I refer back to that in. With. As they end, as they're ending or getting close to the end. I might rephrase the relapse to be. What is your bottom line behaviors? What are those things that you do that you don't want to do, but you do them anyways, Anything. And you do those things. It creates a high level of despair. So it changes the target a little bit to be more like, okay, well, I don't act out anymore, so I'm good. I don't have an addiction anymore or I'm not coping anymore. So we kind of rephrase the relapse area to bottom lines like yelling or. Yeah. Yelling at my wife or being mean to her or my, you know, for her. It's nagging him, wanting answers and details. Or I would, you know, so that. And then the middle circle, which I. I start referring to as your growth edges. What are those areas that you need to grow in, the things that you do that you feel regret over that you. Oh, I shouldn't have done. I shouldn't have gotten so mad about that. Or, you know what? When I'm feeling Really irritated and I dismiss the kids or something. I tell them to go play. I really don't want to do that, but I do it. So that's a growth area, something I need to grow in. So when they're finished, group is like, well, what do you need to grow in? What's still in your growth areas. That's the place to go. And we might rephrase some of those terms and discover what it is that they need to grow in. And that creates the momentum, too, to keep going, that there's always more to work on. But you can achieve a certain level of health if you recognize, oh, it's because I wasn't working on this growth area that I ended up feeling really emotionally tired or ticked off. You get to the T and E on the faster scale. Oh, it's no wonder I felt tempted to act. I start thinking about using or where on your faster scale, where do you find? Notice your first thought about using or. Oh, usually in anxiety. I'll get a little thought about it. Okay, so we need to focus on anxiety. That might be something to deal with because anxiety is in the body as well. So your body's being triggered. So there's always something to work on.

Oh, yeah. And I think just the idea. Since the community year two, not everyone has been through one of these groups. And so as you're going off and you're having conversations with new people, like to have that expectation that they would be ready for the level at which you're maybe sharing a part of your own story. And just as Nick was saying, of just that discernment of, like, who's in. Like, who's in my inner circle, of who gets the most authentic and real version of myself and then just creating those boundaries. That view, as you shared earlier, of, like, what does it look like to still have authentic and great relationships with people, but they don't maybe need to know every detail about all those things because maybe they haven't shown the safety that they can hold that and be that vault that we need in our lives.

That might be a boundary you have. I don't share personal stories with people I just met. That's a good.

That's a great boundary.

Right. And if somebody says, hey, tell me you're sorry, well, hey, I'm not ready to share that with you, and it's okay.

Yeah.

You know, so, yeah, good, healthy boundaries are usually coming into counseling. Especially they. A lot of people. I don't know what a boundary is. And so there's a lot of work around that. So that would be something that, you know, if I was to work on, you know, say, if anything, work on boundaries and attachment style and maintaining. And learning to maintain sobriety. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, Debbie, this has been a very helpful conversation as people think about long term recovery. And I know it's. It can be intimidating sometimes to think about how long does this take? You know, and we've, we've said in many places it takes as long as it takes that, that this isn't just about a finish line as much as it's about living a lifestyle of healing and walking in that. And so what. As we wrap up today, what would be your top piece of advice for someone who's starting year two or beyond in their recovery journey and how can they set themselves up for success in the years ahead?

Yeah. Oh, I think about this, it's like our healing in coming into that relationship with God, as you can see, it has been a joy for me. I know it's been. It is really hard to change your behavior. So I think the. In, in closing, I would say ask the Lord what is keeping you off that dance floor and, and take him up on the invitation to the party. He is. You know, recovery can be a party as you discover things about yourself or discovering your true self and who God created you to be. When you get down to that layer in your life where the treasure is found, your true self, you have this bottom layer that says, oh, that's who I am. Yes, I feel at home with myself now. And that is what God is inviting us to, is to that party. And so what is keeping me off the dance floor? What's keeping me is probably shame. And so dealing with shame is going to be a big issue. But take a risk and find some delight in this process because you're not alone in it. I think that's a big thing. You're not alone. Whether you're sitting in your room and praying or you know, there's somebody there that's comforting you.

Yeah. If I continue with the dance floor analogy, like, just don't stop, like, don't settle. Just keep going. Like, as much as that is the temptation, as you've mentioned plenty of times, like the patterns, it is very simple to fall back into the patterns or the rut, so to speak. The wagon wheel. It takes a lot of work to get that wagon wheel out of the rut and how easy it is to continue to change.

Well, it took a long time for you to get into this. I mean, if you started using at age 11 or 12, you're emotionally kind of stuck there because you were so all those years you're focused on this addiction, you didn't broaden all the other, you didn't mature in other areas. And it's going to take a while to renew the mind and mature, but it's going to be a lot faster than how long it took you to stay stuck.

Yeah, yeah. God has more in store for us. He's still writing our story. There's more chapters to be written and in some ways if, if we stop recovery after year one, we're, we're missing out on some of the joy and delight that's in this journey. I really appreciate that reminder, Debbie, that it's, it's not all drudgery and hardship, although parts of it are very hard, it's very challenging. But there are piece of this, pieces of this that are very life giving. And I think it's particularly in those years, two, three and beyond that we get to enter in more fully to embracing our story. And because we're not being driven by the trauma anymore, we're able to own it as part of our past. And yet seeing how God is redeeming and rewriting that and there's really neat parts in all of that. So for you, the listener, I hope you've gotten ideas about what recovery looks like long term, that maybe it's been a motivation, encouragement to you to keep going. And there's just so much good that comes as we continue to let God go, go deeper in our story, excavate down to that next level, that there's gold, there's treasure to be found. But we've got to be willing to stay in it to stay after that work. So Debbie, thank you for bringing your insights and wisdom. So great to have you with us today.

Your story has a happy ending.

Yeah.

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Sam.