427 - 6 Steps To Take After You’ve Been Caught Watching Porn

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Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from compulsive sexual behaviors. Today is episode 427, and here joining me as my co host for this new series is Ms. Ashley Jamison. Ashley, welcome back. It's good to have you on the podcast again.

It's great to be here, especially because I was just driving home from vacation and my husband and I were listening to some Dave Ramsey podcast episodes, and they created like, a shortcut one, like Ramsey 101, because once you get to the point of having so many podcasts, if you're new, it can be hard to sort through and figure out which episodes to listen to first. And so I'm really excited about this series because I was thinking, oh, we need to do that. And then I'm like, wait, we are doing that. So we have a series of, like, start here. You know, if. If this is a new discovery for you and you just need to kind of get grounded with some information, I think this series is going to do that.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm going to take from what you said that we are just as good as Dave Ramsey. That's awesome. And yes, we wanted to do a series. So this is part one of four on the first 60 days after discovery, or you might think of it as the first 60 days of your recovery. And so if you're listening to today's episode, because it was referred to you, you maybe happened across it on YouTube or social media, and you're stuck in getting caught in your stuff or having secret behaviors come to light, or your spouse is aware of something and you've got huge relational chaos going on, and you're wondering, what do I do? Where do I go? How do we start? This series is for you. This episode and the third one are for you, the struggler.

And.

And the second episode and the fourth episode are primarily for the betrayed spouse. And our goal is to give you some traction, to give you some ideas of what do we do, because this can be a very challenging and overwhelming time. And today we had one of our Pure Desire clinicians on the show, Mr. Jason Carsten, and he had a lot to share about the first steps that you can take if you're porn addiction, your habit, your secrets have come to light. So, Ashley, what can listeners expect from today's episode?

A lot of good information. This will definitely be an episode to put in your pocket and to just Play it. I always say I like to download the information and then hopefully when I'm in the moment, it will be so familiar that I'll, I'll take the steps. But, but somebody will walk away with a next step. I think they're going to be able to hear where they kind of fall in some of these answers and, and know maybe what their next step should be. Um, and also just a good compass to pull out if there's been a fresh discovery or disclosure and you're, you're kind of in that shame brain and not being able to think clearly that you can just pull this episode out and take those steps.

Yes. And if you are new to recovery, new to the podcast, welcome in. We're here for you and you're going to go on a journey that could be life changing. And if you are a regular listener, I think you're going to hear maybe some ideas where there might be gaps in your own recovery or reminders of, oh yeah, I need to be doing that. And I also hope if you're a regular, that you would consider sharing this episode with someone. When you hear about someone's crisis moment, go, ah, I've got a great podcast to share with them because that's really a goal of this episode. So a bit more about our guest before we jump in. Jason Carsten is a clinician and has been working for Pure Desire since 2019. He has a master's in Biblical counseling and is a pastor, sex addiction professional, or more commonly known as a psap. He also has training in multi addictions and a certification in the use of bilateral stimulation in the recovery process. He has served in church ministry for over 20 years and now is blessed to be serving many churches through his clinical work with Pure Desire. So here now is our conversation with Jason Karsten on the six steps you need to take right away after you've been caught looking at porn. Jason Karstens, welcome to the Pure Desire podcast. It is good to have you on.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been quite a journey and I appreciate you asking me into this time. I'm very humbled by this experience. Thanks so much.

Yeah, we were just talking in the pre show that I think it's crazy that it's taken us over 400 episodes to have you on because you're a wealth of knowledge. You've got your own story. You're part of the Pure Desire team. People have heard all that in the intro, but since it is your first time on the podcast, just give us a Quick snapshot of your journey. I mean, that could be the whole episode, but we want to get into other things. But to give people context for where you're coming from, give us kind of that. That elevator version of your story, if you would.

Yeah, for sure. It is. It is a very long story for sure, but I'll try to keep it tight. So it kind of started my journey with Pure Desire, started back in 2010. This is when. When my world flipped upside down, my. My struggle with addiction came to light. At the time, I was a pastor up in the Northwest, and by God's grace, Pure Desire just partnered with our church the year before. So it was there to catch my wife and I as my. My secret hidden behaviors were beginning to be exposed. Let's see. The. The first year for us is. Is pretty tough, but we discovered hope even in the mess that I created. We dove. We dove right into the Pure Desire seven pillars for me. My wife jumped into betrayed and beyond group. Then we also engaged with Pure Desire counseling. And during that time, it helped me face a lot of the hurt that I caused my wife and also helped me begin to dig into a lot of the deeper root issues that I was struggling with. I know during that time, I remember just suffocating in my own shame that caused me to want to hide. I was also resistant so much longer than I should have been. I remember Dr. Ted, he told my wife about 11 months into our process that. And I don't know if this is the best advice to give a wife looking for hope, but he told her, I don't think he's going to make it. But I think he said that actually more for me, it activated. Yeah, absolutely. It activated something in me. Maybe. Maybe some sort of inspiration, but. But I think it was probably more this desire to prove him wrong. So I'm gonna make it. So. So I. I stepped to the plate. I began in. I began engaging the work on a deeper level. And that slowly opened up this path to freedom and healing. And then moving from there, we. We began to heal a lot of. In our marriage, but we're also stuck in a lot of other ways. But during that time, my wife and I, we started leading groups as part of our own healing journey. And then in 2013, that's when we moved from the Northwest to northern Colorado. We began launching some new groups. We and those groups, which is. It's amazing. This is a whole.

Another.

Another story rabbit hole. But they keep multiplying today, even as people bravely share their. Their personal journey of Healing in the recovery with others. I began serving as a regional group advisor for five states for Pure Desire. And as we're faithful in that, God continued to grow and challenge me. And then also with the prompting of Dr. Ted, who began to show me my shepherd's heart. And he encouraged me to pursue counseling others. So I went back to school again, got a master's in counseling, became a certified sexual addiction professional, and I've been counseling now individuals for about 10 years and I've been working with Peer Desire on the clinical team for just over six years. Yeah, hopefully that was short enough.

Yeah, that's awesome. And I think it gives people, you know, we're on a topic today that some listening might be in their very first steps. And to think about the truth that God can use our darkest moments, our deepest pain, our greatest secrets, actually to become some of the most life giving parts of our life might, might be that little seed of hope for someone that, like, man, if that's Jason's story, who knows what God can do in mine? But before we can get there, there's a lot of hard work to be done and you had to do that hard work. And a lot of people don't know this, but I was six months into my first group when another pastor started showing up, and that was Jason. We were actually in the same first group for a little bit of time before I went and started a group at my church. So that's a little connection point that he and I have.

I was pulling up our HR spreadsheet over here, going, has it really been. Because, you know, you're, you're a new guest on the podcast, but you're not new to what you do, you know, and that's, that's cool that we can introduce you, we can introduce another one of our clinicians. So to our listeners, just to put a voice and possibly a face, because taking this step into counseling can be really hard and scary. And I know sometimes just hearing your vulnerability, your vulnerability in the story that you shared and that you've been there, done that, you understand, you don't sound or look too scary. You know, hopefully that encourages somebody to say, hey, he's been doing this and, and I'd love to do a free consultation and see if that's a good place to start for me. So I'm glad we can have you on today.

Yeah, thanks so much, Ashley.

Okay. When someone is first caught looking at porn, the moment can feel overwhelming and significant turmoil in their life. So what is the first step you encourage someone to take in this situation.

Oh, yeah. Very first step. Yeah. So what's going on? You're feeling this weight of. Of being found out. And if you're in that position right now, I do want to let the listener know that, that our heart does go out to you because, you know, a lot of us through that personally, and it can feel overwhelming. And that shame, like I said earlier, it feels suffocating. But the first step to take is to reach out for support. And, and it's important to know you don't have to carry the burden alone. And we're not even meant to. We're. We're meant to carry our burdens in community. And we want to find somebody that sees you with no judgment because receiving a bit of kindness, what that does is it slowly opens up the door for honesty, which is where healing really begins. Clinically on that side, we know that we heal best in safe relationships. And what it does, it reduces fear and stress. And our systems begin to quiet down when we're met with empathy. This also helps us in the process of facing the emotions of guilt and regret. And it's important in that reaching out for community, for support. Even the research shows that social support and healthy community, it cuts relapse rates by. By 50% in early recovery. And so, so just some, some steps to take on the front end is, is if you don't know anybody, call a trusted person, somebody reach out to a friend, a mentor, a pastor, somebody who can listen to you without judging. Schedule a cup of coffee, get together within 24 hours. That's really important to begin to share your heart. And if you found this podcast, got a lot of resources on our website. It's going to be important to pursue counseling and book a consultation as soon as possible to begin to tell your story, to start to unpack it. Look for a group. Seven pillars. Groups are the best. Obviously we know that we're not biased, but they really are because it's in those communities that it helps to cultivate safety, to communicate honesty. A lot of emotions are going on. Start journaling your feelings, what's going on internally. Jot down the emotions you're feeling on. On a notebook and then. And then take time to share that with. With somebody that you trust. You want to practice some calming techniques like deep breathing. Just ascend to yourself and find a sense of stability because your world is really upside down right now and it can be pretty SC carry to open up. So surround yourself in a caring environment. Yeah. And I think on the biblical level, I think of Galatians 6 that says, Brothers, if anyone is caught in a transgression, you who are spiritually should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. So. So this is a safe place. We want to know that, you know, that there is safety and there's a place of gentleness for what might seem the worst time of your life.

Yeah. We need others that can carry that burden with us. And I know for many people, the discovery of our secretive behavior, having it come to light is actually a great relief because we've been carrying this burden alone and knowing, you know, the. The. The weight of what might happen if. If we were caught. And now it's happened and it's come to light, and it's actually a tremendous opportunity to be able to go to others. Like you said, Jason, a trusted friend, a pastor, a counselor, someone in your life that you feel like man. I can start to share this story with and to discover that the thing that you've maybe kept most secret is not going to keep other people away from you, that people can hear your worst and still accept you, walk with you. And there's sometimes a temptation that I've seen where a couple feels like, well, we just need to navigate this alone, like, I caught you, and we're going to deal with it. And it's very private, but there's actually in the same way that it's an opportunity, it's a missed opportunity. If we think as a cup, we've got to keep it to ourselves. Because when you reach out for support, go to that trusted friend, go to that advisor, and you're able to just put it out there and say, this is what I've been doing. And now my spouse knows and it's causing chaos. And they look at you and say, I'm proud of you for facing it. I'm here for you. We're going to walk this road. And if for some reason, you know, you reach out and the first person you share with doesn't do that, you know, maybe it's a friend, not real equipped. They're like, okay, you know, how about them bulls? Or, you know, what about what's on t keep, you know, maybe try another person. Because I know that God has put people in your life that will help you carry that burden. And when you realize I'm not alone and I'm actually going to get help facing this, it can be that. That glimmer of hope that maybe you've been missing for a long, long time. So, yeah, just see that for the opportunity it is and trust that. That God is going to put people in your life to be a significant part of your recovery journey with you.

Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that for sure. That. That being found out, being caught, is actually a plan of God's, because he doesn't want us to live in our continued secrecy and isolation. He wants to bring us back into community.

Yeah, and I was gonna. I mean, Nick kind of touched on it, you know, that sometimes that first person we reach out to, we may need to try again and to not get discouraged with that. Some of us have been hurt by the first person we. We've reached out to. And.

And.

And sometimes we can continue to reach out to people until we feel like we get the answer that we think we're looking for. And so just be mindful in reaching out to somebody who has always been a safe person for you, has always given you sound advice. They're not your. Your wingman. Yes. Man, that's just like, yeah, let's get the torches and burn the house down, you know, but that somebody that you know is going to lift you up and validate you and honor the pain you're in and say, let's not stay there. You know that it's been that person for you. And if you don't have that person, because some of us don't have that person. Pure desire can be a great place to start. Whether it's a groups consultation or counseling consultation, just talking to somebody who can validate what you're going through and support you and say, we're here when you're ready for your next step.

Mm. So, Jason, the. The second step someone should take is to establish some guardrails. So what do we mean by guardrails? And what kinds of guardrails should someone create immediately?

Oh, yeah, that's a. That's a long topic. I. I typically take about the first two or three sessions with the client to actually set up healthy guardrails. So I'm going to try to condense this in about three minutes. So remember that there. There's so much chaos after discovery, and it can make you feel like you're falling apart. And guardrails can feel like a warm hug from a friend. It helps give us structure to save, to create a safe place where we can find our footing. And. And these guardrails, they're not about punishing us. They're. They're about protecting us and showing loved ones that. That we're actually committed to. Neurobiologically, we. We know that. That porn hijacks our Dopamine system and this creates a craving reward loop. And what the guardrails do, they, they interrupt that cycle and it gives our prefrontal cortex our decision making center this the space to take charge to get back control. So their study shows that filters and accountability reduce relapse rates by up to 60% early on. So, so here's some, some components of a, of, of some good guardrails and they're different categories and, and they, they, they can become specific and relevant to your own situation. But, but here's some examples like, like places what we want to do is limit access and time alone and, and the places where, where acting out occurred and if possible avoid them all together. People are there individuals that trigger fantasy or their unhealthy influences in your life that you need to create distance with. That could be really important early on. Some guardrails around media like TV news media, we want to, we want to set ratings, we want to set, set time limits on, on what we consume. Social media, this can be a, a hot button for some but shut it down on the get go. Shut it down. Remove the distraction from your life because social media can become another coping mechanism to kind of not deal with what is going on on a deeper level. Some things around devices, we want to keep our devices in a shared space like the living room. Maybe like after 10pm start using a shared computer set up accountability software like Covenant eyes on your device that helps block and then keep track and provide accountability for, for what you're accessing a big one substances. We want to drastically cut down or even cut out drinking or any other substance. This is not about judgment about you're doing something bad, but what it does, it inhibits your ability to, to engage in an effective healing. I know in Colorado one of our big things here is the, the decriminalization of marijuana. So we've got this added battle with okay, but it's okay. And then I'm trying to work on my, my sex addiction. And so we're trying to create some balance and some reasonability there a big one. Remember in when, when there's betrayal, when you're caught in porn, it's a breakdown of trust in the relationship. And this might seem menial for some like, like finances you could be well off and I have money to spend on whatever I want. And it's not that you can't buy whatever you want but setting limits and discuss discussing, discussing purchases with your spouse helps develop trust. And what we're looking for is 90 days, 90 days to help rewire some neural pathways, way of thinking, and then you. We can reevaluate those guardrails. And so let's see. Remember that. That you're not alone in this. The guardrails are here to hold us up as we take the next step. Mm.

Yeah. And I, you know, I recently have just kind of revamped some things in my life. You know, new onion layer of healing, new onion layer of work and growth. And it's been really good for me over these last few years just to think of those guardrails and those behaviors that we do in a positive way and thinking. I was created by God. I was made a masterpiece. And somewhere along the line, I let the garbage and the junk of my own decisions in the world and the. The sin from others distort my thinking and feel less about myself. And so bringing myself back to, I am a daughter of the king, and I was created to do good things, and I need to protect my mind, body and soul. And using these things as a tool to. To keep myself as healthy and empowered and. And able to live out the purpose that God created me, rather than a punishment like, no, I am valuable enough to do these things, to make sure I stay the creature that God created me to be and to live in that. So.

I've told a lot of guys in group, you don't need guardrails because you're bad. You need guardrails because you're human.

Yes.

And as humans, we're susceptible to running after pleasure, to what feels good, to momentary escapes. And if those things have become damaging to our relationships and the kind of life we want to live, then we want to hedge, like you say, kind of like that. That hug that holds us, that hedges us in and keeps us in a safe place so that we can enjoy the life God has given us to. And we all need those in some area of life. And in the group that we're in or what we're facing, it's because we need it in our sexuality. And if we can identify that. The other thing I've said to so many guys in group is you need to be honest with yourself about if you were to go home tonight and relapse with porn or some sexual behavior, what would you do? How would you do it? Where would you go? And whatever comes to mind first. That's kind of your. That's your area that you need to ask a very honest question. How do I get that off the table? Because if I don't have access to that website or I don't use that device anymore or I don't go to that place. Like you were saying, Jason, if I cannot get there, then that temptation is going to go away. But if I believe, and sometimes we do this in our arrogance or the denial we've lived in, we think, oh, you know, now that I'm in group, I'll be fine, or now that someone knows, I'll be fine. But if we don't change any of the patterns and that, you know, computer access is still there, or we're still going to that place where we know right next door, all we got to do is walk in and we can grab that magazine or see that thing.

It.

We're still susceptible and we're not being honest and humble enough to recognize that susceptibility. So if, if we can remove those primary areas that have been a challenge, then we've got a much better shot at actually getting traction in our recovery. Otherwise, we just keep doing damage control and damage management rather than actually working on healing and getting better.

Yeah, for sure. One more thought on that is when. When we look at the, the cycle of addiction, this preoccupation with the, with the trigger, it triggers fantasy. And we know that clinically it takes 27 minutes to actually resolve the fantasy if you're actively doing something positive, engaging in something positive. So what the guardrails do does is it help create space to actually start engaging in a healthy behavior before the ritualistic behaviors kick in to resolve that preoccupation.

That's so good. I'm glad you touched on that because I know for me, with my binge purge cycle is like, it was so spread out, um, and I didn't see the white knuckling and the swapping addictions at all until later. And so being able to have that, like you said, that space to be able to engage with the things because your, your brain is going to want to replace it with something. And so making sure that you're not making those harmful things easy to grab and that you put some positive things in there. So good. Okay. The third step is to expect emotional chaos. Why is discovery of our secret behavior such an emotional roller coaster, both for the individual and for the spouse?

Wow. We have four hours.

Yes.

This one could take a while. So. So, so the days and, and even the weeks following discovery, it's going to feel like a never ending roller coaster. Like you said, there's a storm that happens and it feels like everything's crashing down. So. So if you've been caught, you're. You're being hit with shame, with guilt, full of fear, you begin to wonder who you are. What, where am I going? Who am I? What's next? Remember, remember during this time also that your spouse is hurting too. If you're married and they're feeling betrayed, they're beginning to question their own worth. This is, this is painful. It's a painful, messy ride for both of you. So, so your system is flooded. It's flooded with cortisol and adrenaline and it's going to make it really hard to think straight. And the research just on betrayal trauma shows that spouses often experience PTSD like symptoms and this fuels intrusive thoughts and it triggers this, this need to question everything. And in the questioning for, for the, the individual caught and acting out, it's, it's going to trigger a shame response. And if, if an individual is full of shame it's going to increase the rate of relapse without support and without structure. So, so here's some things that, that I, I recommend with clients and this goes back to being able to identify and name the emotions. So, so we'll keep a journal log about, about the feelings that I'm feeling daily, whether it's fear, sadness, anger. And then we begin to process them through counseling without bottling them up because we want to discover underneath those feelings there's, there's this negative message that, this negative real that keeps replaying in their heads. And we want to unpack that. We want to integrate some grounding techniques. We call this somatic processing feeling it and we do some trauma processing like through emdr brain spotting, feeling where that is in your body and what's the message underneath? Boy, processing feelings in your group and your group is a great place. You've got that community a safe place to, to unpack the feelings. And one thing we do recommend in with couples is this, this process of co regulation. We're both dysregulated so how can we, we learn to build trust by regulating together. And this is through like daily check ins like an activity like Thanos where we're sharing feelings, affirmations, communicating needs and is there an offense that I need to take responsibility and sharing what I'm working on in my recovery helps cultivate safety and, and it brings peace to the emotions. Self care, self care for each of the individuals. I got four components that I always touch base on with with, with clients is, is how are you doing spiritually, emotionally, mentally and physically. So your act of self care is not something that actually brings me some sort of comfort Necessarily. But the comfort comes after the growth. So what are you engaging in that promotes growth? And remember, you're going to feel overwhelmed. That doesn't mean you're failing at all.

That's right.

There's going to be this overwhelmed sensation. You're not failing. This is just part of the process. So we want to lean on our support to ride the roller coaster, ride the waves, and just remember that healing is on the other side.

Yeah, I know. For me, in that early group experience, it was helpful to think about the metaphor of an iceberg and that my behaviors and my use of pornography was the tip of the iceberg. It was what was above the waterline, but that what was below the waterline was much larger and was largely unseen by me, that I was not aware of all the Y factors and the things that have been driving that behavior for 15 years, even though I'd been trying to stop that whole time. And so to expect that there's a lot more here than I know, and there's going to be some stuff to unpack, and it might be messy and it might take time. I think that gave me a little appetite to say, okay, I'm just gonna have to weather the storms of emotions. And then also on the, you know, the. The marriage side of some of the early input, we got to say, this is a process, and it. It's going to take your wife a significant amount of time to really work through everything she's feeling and don't be in a hurry. And even though I heard that I was still in a hurry because I was like, I'm doing so good, and I'm going to group, and I'm doing all this work, like, aren't you proud of me? And she's like, no, I'm mad at you. And I'm like, what? I'm. But I'm doing so good. Like. And to just see it from her perspective of. She said to me one time, nick, I couldn't see what you were doing when you were doing it because you were hiding it. Now I can't see what you're not doing now that you're not doing it, because it's still outside of my sight. And so it's going to take time for me to really see change. And I probably didn't receive that real well at the time, but it did help me think through, like, okay, this is going to take more than I expected. And that's maybe what I'm trying to say to a listener that is starting to feel the waves of emotions either from themselves or their spouse. Like, you know what? That's part of the process. And if I'm prepared for it and just expecting this is normal, then like you said, Jason, I can weather those ups and downs. I can weather those storms. Because I'm able to say this is just part of the process of unraveling and unpacking this pattern in my life. And whatever it takes, we'll keep walking through it. Because like you said, there is healing, there is growth on the other side.

For sure.

Yeah. And I'm just listening to you, you know, rattle these things off, and I'm like, okay, I would want to counsel with you. So I'm really glad that you're here. Just, I mean, this is. This is stuff to grab onto. Like, this needs to go in a series, like 101 right after CR. I mean, it is in a series. Actually, we did put it in a series. 101 after crisis. This is so good because it just gives some really things to. To hang on to. And, And I know, like Nick shared about Michelle saying, I couldn't see what you were doing, and now I can't see what you're not doing. I've had the same conversation. And just for that betrayed spouse, you know, you. You mentioned some of the. The tools and strategies. The other one that I thought is so practical that we offer is the three circles. And just being able to say, like, as you're talking, Jason, about, like, what guardrails do I need to put in place? We. We have that middle circle of the tool, slippery slopes. These are all the things that if I engage in them, I could. I could end up in relapse again. And just to keep pushing those things out, like, take your guardrail and like, push like a snowplow, all those things as far out as you can, and then fill your life with the good things. Because as a betrayed spouse, and I, and I, and I know just for Michelle, too, when we can see those other things, those surrounding behaviors fall off. You know, like the snappy, you know, the snippiness with the kids or staying up really late or constantly, like, having something in your face, a device, you know, those are. Those are things that we can see. And it just creates a sense of safety for the betrayed spouse. That's. That's really hard to articulate unless you've experienced it. And so encouragement for the struggler. If you're somebody who's like, just tell me what to do. I don't know. This feels so nuanced. Get your three circles out and avoid at all costs those, those slippery behaviors and, and fill it up with those good things that lead you directly away from your relapse, because your spouse will notice. They will take notice.

So what you've been talking about, Ashley, and you as well, Jason, is to say that this is a process that takes time, that it's not a quick fix. And so that leads us into our fourth step, and that is to avoid seeking immediate reconciliation. When we're repentant of our behaviors, there can be an expect that our partner will quickly forgive us so that we can move on. But why might this actually be a bad strategy?

Wow.

Yeah.

The desire to make things right when you're, when you're truly sorry, it's understandable. That just tells us you have a soul and you're human. It's actually natural for us to crave peace in this tension. But here's the problem. Pushing your spouse to forgive quickly, and it ends up hurting more than it helps. The reality is that, that our spouse is carrying a deep pain from betrayal. And what rushing this process does for forgiveness, it dismisses that hurt. And this can lead into resentment. It will prolong their ability to feel safe and their ability to even connect. So betrayal trauma research shows that, that it takes months to rebuild. And, and what, what our brain needs, it's consistent safety cues. And, and as the, as the betrayer, the guy acting out or this consistency over time helps your partner lower their defenses. And rushing the skip. The, the rushing. This process skips the work of addressing why. Why did this happen? Because all these questions are go, why, why, why has this happened to me? And if, if I just forgive, I'll never understand and I'll, I'll build up resentment because I've been hurt. So our spouse also needs some time to grieve. Grieve the loss of what they thought their marriage was, what their life was. Because everything is changing. So there needs to be this time to grow in this ability to create lasting change. And so here, here's a couple things of how we can, we can honor that process. We have to give some space. I don't know if I want to give the timeline for it right now, but we need to understand the timeline. I don't want to create too much discouragement, but, but there is a process. Understand the timeline before even discussing reconciliation. Our job is just to simply engage in the work, cultivate trust over time. That's going to happen with, with the tools that you're learning in counseling and in your group. There needs to Be consistency in behaviors, words, they might not matter during this time, but as I think you said, Ashley early, that she is watching you. She's watching your behaviors. She's watching every little thing you do. We want to validate the pain. We want to do this consistently and regularly. Learning to express appropriate empathy that we use tools like avr. That's acknowledge, validate, and reassure. When there is the triggering. Educate yourself, educate yourself, educate yourself. You're here for a reason. God brought you to this podcast. Or like Nick said earlier, there's 400 more to listen to. So educate yourself what's going on and listen to other stories who, who have been through it. That's really helpful. Practice patience. We have to learn patience. Write a daily reminder that we are focused on long term healing. And so at this level, boy, you're beginning to do the hard work of recovery. And patience shows love. It builds a foundation towards true reconciliation.

I know one of the things we're tempted to in early recovery is we just want to make the pain go away because it's hurtful to us. We hate seeing our spouse hurt. We want them to feel better, but actually we need to be reminded that it is pain that transforms us. And I'm not saying we should seek out pain or want to be in pain, but to face the pain and allow it to run its course as long as it takes will actually help us do the work we need to do. I mean, I've had many guys and in my own story, like, the reason I started group is because my wife was in pain. Did I want to do group? If I was being honest, no. I tried really hard not to do group, but. But my counselor and my wife were like, you're doing group? And honestly, those first few months I was there because, like, I don't want to hurt my wife anymore and I don't like her being mad at me. And so it did motivate me. And I think being willing to stay in that as long as it took was what created the motivation necessary. So if we take that mindset that, you know, having relational disturbance and not fixing it really quick is actually a good thing for me right now because if that keeps me focused and doing the work I need to do so that I can show my wife, or if the wife is the betrayer, so I can show my husband how sincere I am about making lasting changes and not just doing a quick fix, they'll start to see that. And over time, their pain will subside. The anger will go in a different direction. If you continue to do that work. But actually the opposite can happen is that if we're pushing for a quick fix and, well, why won't you forgive me? We just need to move on. In all likelihood, you were, you will prolong the journey and you will prolong the pain because they won't sense that you're actually changing or that you're safe. So as kind of odd as that seems, that seems backwards to us. There is the truth. If we'll be willing to stay in the pain and let it motivate us to do the deep work, it actually can be a really, really helpful part of this process.

Yeah, and I was thinking too, you know, there's such a benefit as the struggling spouse to, just like you said, avr, you know, acknowledge if we just say, I understand that I hurt you and broke your trust and I'm so sorry and take as long as you need, and I just want to assure you that I want to do whatever I can to make you feel safe. You know, sometimes when we say to gain your trust back, we're like, what does that mean? Because you're just trying to have sex again or something. So, you know, to make you feel safe. And if there's anything else I can be doing that would help you, please let me know. Like to just not be defensive at all and say, it's going to take you a while, I mean, to trust me again. And, and that's an appropriate response for you to have. Like when you, even early on in, in those first 60 days when you, like you said, Jason, educate, educate, educate. You can get equipped with, with what is happening. Even if you don't fully understand the, the impact on your spouse. If you can learn from others and, and have that approach, it can do a lot of good. And even in those 60 days can offer so much hope to the spouse who feels validated, who feels seen, even if you are the one that caused the pain. Because for some of us, we have felt something going on for many, many years, sometimes decades or we knew about it and it was an ongoing struggle, like Nick and Michelle's situation. Mine was just like a felt struggle. There was something off that was eroding our marriage. And so there's part of it that actually is like, ah, now this has a name. Now I know what's wrong with our marriage. It's not this unidentified thing in our marriage. And so it's a whole bag of emotions and, and you hold a lot of, I don't like, want to say power. That sounds so, you know, as the struggling spouse, to just say, yeah, this is. This is terrible, and I want to do whatever I can. So please keep telling me when you need something, I want to be here for you.

Yeah. And we don't want our spouses to feel like the fool again because, you know, we've asked for forgiveness for a whole bunch of other things in the past, but there's never really any authentic change underneath. And now we put our wives in a position that they require change to move forward. And so apology is not going to fix that.

Right. Yeah. And I. I thought as the betrayed spouse, so once I forgive something, I can never bring it up. And, like, that is not how healing work. It's like a spiral of healing. And you need to sometimes go back and say, hey, when this happened, can I ask a question about that and be able to get more information?

Yeah.

Okay. So our fifth step is to give yourself grace. The guilt and shame often feel unbearable in these moments. So how can someone take responsibility for their actions without letting shame define their identity?

Oh, shame. Shame is going to weigh you down. Think of it like this. This heavy chain you can't get off, and it's actually dragging you into the abyss. And that abyss is making you feel worthless. It makes you feel helpless. It makes you feel hopeless. But even in the midst of all that, you can own your actions without letting shame define you. We need to separate what we have done from what and who we are. And there's some specific messages that are important to kind of go through and. And recall. We want to be spec that says, okay, I have done this. I was looking at porn and I hurt you. Instead of saying, oh, I failed you and I'm sorry that you feel that way. That dismisses the impact on the relationship. So neurobiologically, remember, shame triggers this. This flooding of cortisol, which is a driven threat response. And even just experiencing that causes a lowering of self esteem. So. So when shame is on board, it's impossible to provide empathy. Shame and empathy cannot live in the same room. So a lot of wives will say, my husband can't communicate empathy. I'm like, yeah, I know, because he's flooded with shame. So. So we're trying to play that dance there and create a little bit of grace in the midst of that. But we need empathy to create safety for the betrayed spouse and even for ourselves. Dr. Kristen Neff, she did some great research on. On self compassion. When we. When we give ourselves self compassion, what that does, it reduces stress and cuts our dis. Our depressive symptoms by 40% in recovery. So grace means, remember this. Grace means owning your choices while believing you're worthy of change. So this is, here's some things what we can do to practice that. We have to obviously refresh, reframe our narrative, reframe, reframe the thoughts and the messages that come up in the midst of shame. We do that through journaling, practice, mindfulness. And these are all skills that we cultivate in the counseling environment. Some deep breathing exercises, meditation, track your progress. I, I think for me early on recovery I used to keep this, this notebook of all my faster scales. I think I have still have them somewhere, but this huge 3R reminder of all my faster skills. And I would go back and look at what I was identifying early on in recovery and it showed me how far I have come. So that's, that's important to kind of look back and see how you are growing. That reduces shame. Let's see, what are your values? Do I align with my values? Because, because if my life is incongruent with my values, then, then it's going to impact how I, how I see myself. Increasing shame. So there's a great exercise in a workbook. We go through Genesis, process, process 18 the mirrors. So, so understanding my, my morals, my integrity. My values are on relationships, how I, how I see life, optimistic outlook and, and there's a couple other things in there that's important to engage in. Piece of self compassion is, is what is true about you. What is true about you. And we want to differentiate. We're not looking for this, this worldly self love perspective. What we're looking for is, is a godly perspective. We call them prophetic promises. Where is it that God really meets you and what does he say about who you are, not what you do? And we want to celebrate the small wins. Remember, shame gets reinforced because we have a broken reward system. So it's important to acknowledge the achievements in the recovery and the hard work that you've been doing and remember that you're human and you're enough.

Yeah. Such a good listener. I mean people could just keep going back to that three or four minutes and just replay it and replay it and replay it. And because dealing with shame is a huge part of our recovery. Because shame, and I think the key word that you use there, Jason, that was in the question is that word identity. Shame tries to convince us that our identity is our behaviors. So we feel like I'm an idiot, I'm stupid, I'm no good, I'm a Loser. And what we know neurobiologically is that we tend to act in accordance with who we deeply believe we are. And so if I deeply believe I'm a loser and then I do something that a loser does, like, well, it's because I'm a loser. That's what losers do. But that's not who you are. Your behavior is not your identity. Your identity, if you're a Christ followers in Christ, it's in who God made you to be. The good qualities that God gave you is who you are as God's creation. And the things you do, yes, might be idiotic, they might be stupid. And it's okay to acknowledge that choice was stupid, that was a bad choice, that was something an idiot might do, but that's not who I am. And maybe you've been called that name in your own thinking or in your past a long, long time. That's part of what healing is really about, is identifying, where did that voice come from? Where did I start? Seeing myself through that lens and dealing with that narrative is such a critical part of long term change because it's not just changing the behavior, it's changing my sense of identity so that I begin to act in accordance with who I believe I am in a positive way. So as we face that identity issue and give ourselves grace, that really is a game changer for the long haul.

Yeah. And I think this is where you really need your a support team system. Because we, John and I did that early in our recovery journey of I would share something which took me a lot of guts to like actually verbalize a need or hurt. And then he would acknowledge it, but then he'd sink down in a hole because of the shame he felt. And I think you, you said something like, you know, apologize for the, the behavior. And you kind of gave this example. I'm like, oh, yeah, I've heard that. Like, well, I'm sorry I'm, you know, not the husband that you deserve. I'm sorry that you feel, you know, like you married me. And I'm like, oh, this is getting like all twisty and yucky, you know, and it's like, no, I just don't like this behavior. You yourself are a good husband, a good, good, a good father. But this behavior is so damaging to our marriage. And so I, I think it's so good for, for, for us to have that support. There was a time I was on a phone call with a friend who's a group a betrayal and beyond group friend that I've now been long time friends with. And I was just casually saying something and she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa right there. Did you say that in front of your kids? Because that would leave a lot of shame in them. And I'm like, oh gosh, it's really good to have iron sharpens iron in your life. You know, that, that we need those, those other, you know, struggling addicts or, or people that can say you just have to hold the pain. And it's not a reflection on who you are as a person. You've made some bad mistakes. And just to remind you, because it's, it's hard to get that all of that from our spouse. We can't get that all from our spouse. We have to have outside people to help us. Us through those lies that are swirling around in our head because it's just too emotional and entangled to be just you two alone.

Well, in the group, even with counseling, that support group, the weekly meetings and just the, the coffees you get, it's important because they become a mirror for yourself, what's going on internally. And, and it puts you in a position to hear the positive changes that others are seeing in you.

Yeah.

That you're just not in your own head all the time.

Yep.

So, Jason, often when our porn use or compulsive sexual behaviors come to light, when we get caught or when it's discovered, the focus can naturally drift towards just stopping the behavior. Just don't do that anymore. But our sixth step is about pursuing healing. Pursuing long term healing. So how is a healing journey different from sobriety? And what initial steps can someone take to pursue healing versus just trying to stop a behavior?

Oh yeah, that's a great question. And pillar one, your. Your direction determines your destination. So it's important to know what your destination is. Sobriety is just the start of the journey. But, but healing is actually where, where hope lives. Sobriety, it means stopping porn with tools like the filters, like the guardrails, recovery action plan, all the tools, the three circles. But, but what healing does is this lasting change. It digs into why you turn to it in the first place for stress management or some suppression of past or even current pain you're experiencing. The process of recovery is what we call, and we look at as a second order change. And second order change is a paradigm shift in how I see myself in, in, in, in reality. So I, I look at. People always ask, what's the, what's the definition of recovery? Well, simply it's to be complete again, so it's the process of becoming complete again. What is, what does healing look like? Not just sobriety, because sobriety is a piece of it that leads to healing, but it's not the end result. So in, in our trauma informed care, it shows that 70% of, of porn use is tied to, to some form of emotional dysregulation. And that reinforces our insecurities. So not sobriety. But healing begins to rewire those patterns, cutting relapse risk significantly. So this is where we go to that. I think you mentioned this earlier, Nick, that you have to feel to heal. You have to go through the pain. So, so this is learning to feel so that you can heal. To do what? Well, to discover purpose, to discover mission, to identifying, calling for something that is greater outside of ourselves. And just for the, the individual listening right now, I just want to encourage you that, that you're on a brave journey toward a life that you don't need to escape.

I remember early in my recovery, Dr. Ted use that phrase that we often do at pure desire that we're not here to stop a behavior. We're here to change the way you do life. Because the way you do life is what has led you to that behavior. And we can't stop the behavior unless we address the whole system of how you're doing life. And it just said to me like, we're going to go a lot deeper than you ever have. And again, that illustration of the iceberg was really helpful for me to think of that my acting out behaviors of using pornography was just the tip of the iceberg. But there were all these other unaddressed things about my value, worth, identity, core beliefs, feelings, unaddressed trauma from my past. I was, I was largely blind to all of those things and how they connected. But as we started to delve into that, there was a moment where I, it just felt like it clicked. It was like, oh, this is what's actually happening. And I realized in that moment that pornography was not my problem. Pornography was the symptom. And yeah, it is a problem in and of itself, but that it was actually the symptom of the deeper challenges I had with where I was finding my value, worth and identity. And when I started to see that, then I was willing to engage with that really deep work of healing that ultimately would lead to long term change in the behavior as well. But if we just try to stop the behavior but don't address all that other stuff, we've talked about it being like capping a volcano. Like if you could cap A volcano. But all that hot lava and all that pressure is still in there. Sooner or later it's going to find a way to explode again or it's going to go out sideways. And so we've got to actually address the deeper stuff so that the behavior will be changed long term.

Yeah, I, I definitely experienced this when I went through my divorce. I ended up just stuffing all of my feelings. And so like you said, Nick, pornography was not the problem. There's, there's always something deeper. And when we don't address pain and trauma and experiences that we're, we're struggling with or we feel shame around, we end up wanting to make that go away. And so we reach out for different things and, and I ended up reaching out for non sexual things and eating disorder and, and drinking and different things. And so the, like you, you emphasize, we don't want to just get sober. We don't want to just stop something because it will end up showing up in another way. I experienced that for several years and did not connect the dots that this was the same problem that I was trying to find a solution for in just ways that kept leading me down a further spiral. And so to just stop it all is the sobriety. But then to recover is to create new pathways and to do life differently and to not reach for things that are harmful for us or others in the meantime. And that volcano illustration, how many years I spent praying, God, make me a patient mother, help me to stop yelling at my kids and overreacting. And I didn't realize it was all that stuff being suppressed and then coming out sideways on my kids. And when I finally took the lid off and said, let's dump it all out on the table and deal with what's really going on here, all of a sudden I was more patient with my children and didn't have these explosive moments. So just for that person early on, like it, it is a process and it is a, a recovery journey. And you may just be in those first steps of trying to establish sobriety and stop the bleeding. But almost anybody who's, who's done our groups or been through our counseling will say even in those first weeks, you can start to experience hope. You can start to experience the change and the lightness and the freedom even in that early stage. So, so it doesn't have to feel as awful as it does now for a long time. Just start making the steps.

Yeah.

Yeah. Just one more thing on, on this, this point, there's a danger in here because a guy could just Think. Okay. I'm so bright. I'm sober. I'm not acting out. I'm not engaging in the behavior. And then it goes back to all the first, first four steps leading up to here. And it disregards, you know, the pain your wife and wife's in because you're looking for some validation. Hey, I'm doing good work here. So how come you're not better? And it. And it kind of dismisses the whole healing process needed for lasting change. So we want to be careful during this part that sobriety is not the goal.

Right?

Yeah. So good.

Okay. Jason, for someone at the very start of the recovery after discovery, what key piece of advice would you offer to ensure they're on the right path to healing and transformation? Aloha.

If you're just starting this journey or you're. You've been it for a while, this isn't. This isn't just for everybody who's just starting it. You could be currently in it because you'd be stuck spinning your wheels. Just remember that you don't have to do this alone. There's strength and community, and the key is to get help right away, to reach out. Right now, there are many great organizations trained to meet the specific needs of the individual and the couples. But I will say pure desire is amongst the tops in this work as we walk with those in need through what might be the darkest period of their lives. But I might be a little bit biased as I say that. So here, here. Here's how we begin. It's one thing we have to accept that I need help. And if you're struggling and you're spinning your wheels, you've been in recovery for a while, there's probably a piece of denial that you're not accepting in the need for help on a more vulnerable level. And asking for help, this doesn't mean that you're weak at all. So it just means that, hey, I am having a hard time trusting community. But this is where you're going to heal. So remember, you're taking a brave step towards a better future. And this is just like planting a seed for lasting change.

Yeah. The key piece of advice, I would say at the end here, and it sounds a little cliche, but it's that you can only do recovery one day at a time. But there's some deep truth there because we can get overwhelmed by all the things we need to do or the groups to join and steps to take. But the truth is we need to every day ask the question, am I making my recovery A priority today and what can I do today? Because if we do that well today, then we get up tomorrow and we say, okay, how do I make my recovery and healing a priority today? And days turn into weeks and months and years, and we'll look back and see, wow, I've become a different person. Our marriage is in a different place, but you can't do that all at once. You can't plan that. Years and years of recovery you can do today, though. And what does it look like today to make your healing and recovery a priority and go after that with an intensity, with a priority, do it, and then tomorrow get up and do it again. And you will look back and see some incredible things that you thought you could never achieve as a person, as a couple, in a family. But it happens one day at a time. So what can you do today to take that next step, go after it and get up tomorrow and do it again? Anything you would say, Ashley.

Mine, because I love to make excuses for myself and be like, I'm fine now, is to right away get those couple people that you, allow them to ask you how you're doing, what are you doing to work on your recovery? What are, you know, what are you currently involved in to keep your recovery moving forward? I need that. That's going to be my first step. When I'm feeling that shame and that pain that's great enough to make that change is to make sure I have something in place so I don't stop when I'm like, oh, it doesn't hurt as bad anymore. I don't have to do these things. So get your support then.

Make your plan at the end of this, I'll tell you from personal experience, you're going to really like who you become as you walk through this.

Yeah, that's good.

That's a good place to be.

Yes.

Well, as we close today's episode, remember this, that being caught or having your secrets come to light can be incredibly painful. But this could also be the turning point towards real healing and lasting change. So taking some immediate steps, like reaching out for support, establishing guardrails, allowing space for the emotional chaos, these can lay a strong foundation for transformation. Shame doesn't have to define you, but honesty, responsibility, and grace can. So don't rush the process or expect the instant reconciliation. Instead, focus on your growth, healing, and the deeper work being done beneath the surface. Recovery is a journey, not a quick fix. And you're not alone. We are here to help, to encourage. And I know that throughout this episode, there have been so many pieces that you could grab onto to begin walking in recovery today. So, Jason, thank you so much for joining us. I promise it's not going to be 400 more episodes before we have you on again. You have so much to offer and appreciate you bringing that today.

Well, it was a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

And if you're a fan of the content, if today's show meant something to you, please subscribe, share it with somebody else, write us a review, give us a a Like all of these are ways that more people can find this life giving content when they need it most. And if you want more information about Pure desires, groups, resources or counseling, Visit us@puredesire.org Journey on my friends, you are not alone.