429 - The 6 Things To Do After You Catch Your Spouse Watching Porn

Foreign. Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stumbo, and you are listening to the Pure Desire podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from all sorts of compulsive sexual behavior. Today is episode 429, and here joining me is my co host for this series is Ashley Jamison. Ashley, welcome back. Good to see you again.

I'm always very glad to be here.

Yes, this is a unique series that we're doing because we wanted to focus in on that critical time period when you've been caught looking at pornography, or you're the one catching a spouse looking at porn. And you are in a whirlwind of emotions and thoughts and ideas and radical steps if we got to do this or that. And so to have some sound advice of what to do in this season, we thought would be so crucial. So this is part three of four in our series on the first 60 days after discovery. And we've spent a couple of episodes talking to the struggler or the addict about the steps they need to take. And now in the last two parts of the series, we want to really focus in on the spouse who's experiencing all the realm of emotions, of betrayal and hurt and pain, and what did I do to cause this? So, Ashley, talk to that betrayed spouse a little bit. What can they expect from this episode? Maybe in particular, if this is the first Pure Desire podcast they have ever.

Listened to, I think they're going to feel validated. I think they're going to feel normal, and I think they're going to feel hope and that they have options. Unfortunately, in the last couple of weeks, I've had several friends and family members reach out to me, either needing personal guidance because they're experiencing betrayal, or they have a friend or loved one. And I'm. I'm thinking, what is going on? I mean, I do this for a living, but to have it be my personal life, my personal friend, saying, I need help. This just happened. I'm scouring our website, sending them podcasts. So I'm really excited to have this series because I feel like our team is, frankly, we're first responders and we're kind of rushing in saying, do not be discouraged. I know this is painful, but we assure you we can help you with this. And I just think it's going to be one of those tools to put in the toolbox and. And use it when you need it.

And you are with people that have walked this road. Ashley, you've lived this story. Heather's lived this. This was my story 15 years ago. Thankfully not a one time discovery, but repeated disclosures to my wife that I was struggling with pornography and, and watching her walk through all of that pain and us really doing it the wrong way for 10 years and then finding pure desire and doing it the right way, I'm able to share from that perspective and I think that's what I'd want you to know if you're listening for the first time, that we get where you are and we have, I think, some hope and encouragement to offer and hopefully you'll relate to a lot of what we have to share today because this is such a crucial time. But we believe in you and we believe you can walk through it, even though it's really messy and challenging.

Yeah. Having support and as you'll hear in the episode, just knowing where to go. And so we hope we can be one of those places for you to know where to go when crisis hits.

And Heather Kolb, our guest today, is awesome. She is a content creator and an associate director here at Pure Desire, has been with us for many, many years, and is co host on a lot of the episodes. But today she's our guest expert, helping us walk through this. And so here now is our conversation with her on six things to do after you catch your spouse watching pornography. Heather, welcome back to the Pure Desire podcast as a guest and not as a co host this time. It's good to see you.

Nice. Thank you. It's nice to be here.

We felt like it would be really important to do a series that really focuses in on a time period that can be so difficult, painful, messy and challenging for couples. And that is what we've most frequently called the moment of discovery. The that his or her pornography use, compulsive sexual behavior activities have come to light more often than not because it's been discovered or they've been caught. And many couples are reeling in that season wondering, what do we do? And so for a couple of weeks we've talked about the side for the struggler, the one whose behaviors have come to light. In these next two episodes, we're looking at what does the spouse do? And this is such a challenging time. And so let's jump into it. That day of discovery can be very traumatic for the betrayed partner. And as we start the conversation today, what would you say? Give us kind of an overview. What are the six most important things that a partner should do when they catch their spouse or discover that their spouse is looking at porn?

Okay, so I would say that the six probably things they're gonna do right away would be to reach out for support, establish boundaries, expect emotional chaos. Don't feel pressured to reconcile or forgive right away. Pursue your own healing and give yourself grace and not necessarily in that particular order. And I'm sure that there are a lot of other things that, that, that we could recommend, but it seems like these six things would be more crucial upfront to just get them to a place where they can start moving forward with other tools and other steps as well.

Yeah, I think like you said, you don't have to use them in any particular order because you know, we always tell women that that come to our betrayal and beyond groups that it's normal to feel all these things and just depending on the situation and the n of that specific relationship and the different facets of discovery and putting the pieces together, you may need to just have it all laid out there to know your options and grab one a certain day and then the other day focus on another. So good to have them all laid out in the beginning just to know what your options are. But ex, ex, like you said, expect chaos. Expect it to change, expect it to not look like a straight line.

And for those that might want a little more time on unpacking those six, by the way, these are the same six steps that we recommend for the struggler or the addict, but there's just another side of them to the betrayed spouse that in reaching out for support, it's to acknowledge that you can't walk through this alone. You need people, preferably that have some experience, that have walked this road before, that you know will have your back, will support you, will give you good advice to establish those boundaries, to begin to understand what you will need for safety, what you will need to know the truth and to figure out what's reality and not to just spin into an emotional place that will be unhealthy for you, perhaps for your kids or others around you. And that's then the third one of expecting emotional chaos. That it's going to be. There's no easy way to walk through a hard situation. There's going to be ups and downs, there's going to be very dark, difficult times and hard questions you'll ask. And that's part of the trauma you're experiencing. That reality that you shouldn't feel pressured to reconcile right away. We have seen how often that's maybe a recommendation from well intending Christians say well, you know, just forgive him, he means well, or he's sincere and just Move on. And there is a desire, I think, for many of us to reach a point of forgiveness, but to know that's a process and that might take time. Giving yourself grace that's such important will unpack these in many of the questions and to pursue healing feeling. Throughout many of the peer to czar podcasts, we emphasize that even though you didn't cause this, and we want to say that for a spouse that's feeling betrayed, this is not your fault. You could not have prevented it. You could not be beautiful enough, sexual enough, available enough, whatever, enough to change their behavior. But you are now a casualty of someone else's painful choices. And so you're going to need healing too. And that can be difficult to know. Well, why do I have to do work when it's their problem? But. But if we've been injured, even if we didn't want it or intended or cause it, we have to address the injury. And if you're feeling deep pain and emotional chaos and all the other things, to begin to pursue your healing, regardless of whether or not they are repentant, they're doing their work, you're going to need healing and we're going to provide some resources and ideas of what that might look like for you as well.

Yeah, I know for me with this, with how I can feel very overwhelmed. If you're able to just do one thing, you know, already having in mind who you can reach out to for support, maybe the only thing you do. And then if you have the right support people, they're going to help you figure out maybe which of the other five steps you you might need to use. And I know Heather giggles because that is like what I've done with her multiple times. Like I really. And then just knowing I don't have to try to figure out anything other than reaching out for my support people, and then they will help me process what I need to do in what order. So at least have that one on hand if you can't even figure out where to start. With the six. Okay. Discovering that your spouse is looking at porn can be emotionally excruciating. So can you explain why this is a common response and what that might look like?

Yeah. And this really goes back, I think, to it being what you're feeling. The experience has created this, this emotional chaos in your body because your brain is setting off this alarm, telling you that now you're in danger with this person who you thought you trusted for your entire relationship. They've hurt you in a way that you've never Imagined, possible, perhaps have never even experienced this feeling. And the amygdala in your brain is sounding this alarm, telling you to do something. And a lot of times we see that this comes out either in, in angry, in anger, in sadness, in. I mean, there are people who become just catatonic. There's. And there's no right or wrong with any of these things because what you're experiencing truly is physical. There's something in you. And sometimes you might shake, I mean physically shake, because you just don't know what to do. And your brain is trying to assimilate, is trying to draw from what already knows, from your past experiences, how to handle this situation. But a lot of times it's just spinning because it doesn't know how to handle this, because we've never been in this situation before. And so it just is one of those things that a lot of women feel numb. Partners, I shouldn't just say women partners who have experienced betrayal, both men and women, they might feel numb, they might want to immediately leave the house, leave everything, go to a safe place. You know, it's just, it's really hard to even say this is what it will feel like. But all of the things could happen.

And what we hear a lot from spouses is the way in which it triggers that fear or the worst case scenario of what else don't I know what else is going on? I know that was what my wife often shared, was that feeling of, well, if you didn't tell me this, then what else aren't you telling me? And I think that's where many spouses kind of go into that investigation mode, like I need to know what I'm actually dealing with and I maybe caught you or discovered something on your phone. And then there's all these other questions that come with it. That's anxiety producing, that's fearful, that's worrisome. And then what our brains so often do, and part of this is the brilliance of God's design, because God designed our brain to protect us, to keep us safe, to keep us alive. What our brain will do then is play out all the worst case scenarios. Like, well, if this is true, then this might happen and that could happen. And if there's a divorce and what about the kids and what about. We're just. Even if we don't want to, we're playing out all those scenarios partly because it's our brain's effort to then plan and manage what could happen. But that's very debilitating when all those thoughts are coming in. And what I hear from so many people, they don't try to think that way. It's just like, that's my reality now. And if we know that, okay, this is what people experience. And there are the groups and methods and counselors that understand this and can help me process through all the different options. And what do I need to know? What don't I need to know? Those. Those are really helpful things. Why we say, you know, get support. Because you are walking through something that, as you said, Heather, your brain truly is not designed to know ahead of time how to handle. And so when you're in that, to go to people that say, okay, I've walked this road, or I've. I've. I've had the training to do this and understand what are some things you could begin to do that becomes so helpful at a time when we often just don't. Simply just don't know what to do.

Yeah. You know, with it being such an intimate relationship that you're experiencing pain and betrayal. And, I mean, I just always got a picture of, like, trying to seek safety and not being able to find it. You know, like those really intense action movies where they just keep trying to, like, look for safety and there's explosions and bombs. Like, that's how I felt afterward, because the. Because John was my person to go to with everything, like, rough day at work, rough day with the kids, wrestling with a spiritual concept, trouble with family, or, like, anything I needed to work out and problem solve was done with John. And so then to have that taken away or that be the source of pain, I just felt like a chicken with my head cut off, like, trying to figure out, well, where do I go for that stabilization and safety that I always looked for in my marriage? And it makes you feel very out of control and very lost. And I think just going back to Heather's first answer of having those things in place, even for possibly a future relapse or just a future moment where it's a rough day that you don't have to at least go back to that beginning state of not knowing where to find help, because that was pretty difficult and help has gotten more available. But when I was looking for help, it was like I was in bookstores, you know, looking at each spine on the book and saying, okay, is this for me? Is this for me? Because it wasn't. I couldn't. It wasn't like it was now where you can go online and look for podcasts and. And that kind of thing. And so just making those Steps to stability and safety as easy and smooth as possible so that you don't have to think of it when you're hurting so badly.

So reach out for help. That's why we're here. If you're listening to this podcast and you're new to Pure Desire, we want you to know that we're here to help you. And this is what we do. We help men and women, struggler and spouse. And, and you could reach out to our team. You could do a free consultation with our counseling team. You could find an online group like, that's a big part of why we exist. Going into the second step, Heather, one of the things we talked about was the need for boundaries. So how can a betrayed partner establish boundaries for themselves without it appearing as punishment for the struggler?

Yeah, and this, I think, is something that the concept of boundaries, people struggle with, I think in general. And really just recognizing that any boundaries that I put in place, those are for me, they're not for the other person. So I feel safe. They're for me, so I feel safe. And, and even that list, your, your list of boundaries, depending on your situation could look totally different. But a few examples would be if you caught your spouse looking at porn on their cell phone, that a boundary could be that I need to feel safe with you. And I would ask myself, my spouse, to either not have a smartphone, have where, get a phone that doesn't have Internet access, or I would ask them to not bring their cell phone into the bathroom or into their bedroom at nighttime, anything like that, depending on the offense. I think another boundary would be for a lot of women would be for that. If I catch you looking at porn, then I need space from you and I need physical space from you. And so I'm going to ask my spouse to not sleep in our bed for however many days, or I'm going to ask them to go and stay with a relative or I'm going to even to the point where I know for some women, and I'm saying women because that's mostly what I hear in group and, and when I talk with women, but sometimes part of their establishing boundaries would be that I don't want somebody to, who just hurt me to feel like they have access to my physical body in any way. So I don't want them, my spouse, to even ask me for a hug or ask me to kiss them or ask me, you know, if they. Anything, don't touch me. You know what I mean? And so it is having those kind of boundaries because you need to be to a place where you can feel safe in your home again, which is one of the things that we hear a lot is that now this place, that my whole entire world exists in this safe place, and now this place is not safe for me anymore. And so what does that look like to you? For you to re. Establish safety in your own home is going to be part of the way that you're going to establish boundaries, if that makes sense.

Yeah. And I really appreciated in the book Worthy of Her Trust by Jason Martinkus that, you know, he talks about being willing to sacrifice your freedoms. And when addicts are still in there, like, I've been caught, let me do. Let me pull every strategy to like, minimize this situation. They haven't maybe learned to be honest or maybe. I know for my husband, the. The childhood experience of having consequences that really were way above and beyond what was appropriate, you know, caused him this belief that it's better to not deal with the consequences and be honest. It's better to just try to get away with that. And so just relearning that your freedoms, your. Your liberties that you have of maybe going to the gym or having a smartphone or you used to go to dinners or lunches with female coworkers, those are some things that you've used and there's been harm caused. So be willing to give those things up. Be willing to say, I'm willing to sacrifice these different areas of what I consider a freedom to. To show you that you can be safe, to show that I'm working on this. Because we hear too much that boundaries end up feeling like, to the addict, like they're in prison or you're acting like my parent or I need to do this recovery for myself and it needs to be, you know, for me and not you. I need to do it internally and just all these excuses to not honor their spouse's boundaries. And. And so just being able to stick to your guns and say, this is what I need. And hopefully the addicts or the strugglers listening, you know, realize that this is a way that you can show love and show care and show that the marriage is more important than any of these other little things, but not to be manipulated by those kinds of responses because it. It can feel very unnatural. Especially Christian women. I. I cannot begin to express how many times Christian women have told me they don't feel like it's Christian to put these kinds of boundaries in because of the. The messages they've been told of, okay, we'll forgive him before you go to bed and don't take sex off the table for anything except for prayer. And, you know, these different things they're coming to group with, they. They feel guilty. And so even putting boundaries in and very, very uncomfortable for them and can feel sinful to them in some ways.

Well, and what you said, Heather, I think is important that every couple is different. The circumstances make a big difference if this is a discovery for the first time or if this is an ongoing pattern. What was discovered, what was the degree of behavior that we're now aware is happening. So I don't think anyone should feel like, well, there's one way you have to do it. But to be aware that need for safety, and that's what you emphasize so well, Heather, is so crucial. And it's not about me changing you or telling you what to do. It's me stating what do I need to have in order to feel safe here. And what I would also emphasize is this doesn't have to be your now and forever plan. Remember, we're talking in this series specifically about discovery has just happened. You're maybe within a few days or the week of knowing this is going on maybe for the first time. And so it's asking the question for right now, what do I need? So what do I need to have confidence that you're not still looking at porn? Maybe it's having your phone out in a public place. Maybe it's that I have your phone for a while so that you're not tempted to. Maybe it's that we change some passwords. What do I need to have the freedom to move towards you when I'm ready? And so I think what you said, a physical touch, being able to say I'm not safe or comfortable having sex with someone who's viewing pornography. And so for this time period, that's off the table. And we have a number of other podcast episodes about sex and recovery and having periods of abstinence for the purpose of recovery and healing. So that when there's sexual connection and physical intimacy, it truly is about the couple and not that fear of what else are they thinking about, what images are on their mind. And if we realize that's the reality I'm in right now, I don't think I can be physically intimate with you without that fear that you're not actually present. It's appropriate to say we're not going to be doing that right now. And those are, again, as you emphasize so well, Heather, the boundaries for you, the boundaries that you need to feel safe and to Create, you know, our desire, pure desire is that the relationship and the marriage survives. So it's what creates the space for relationship growth and trust to be rebuilt. And then as appropriate, you know, you get even a week into that, you might start to see, okay, here's some ways we're learning we can navigate this better. It might be a month, it might be several months, but every timeline will be different. But it's asking that question right now, like today, this week, what do I need to have some confidence that I can move forward with you and that you're telling me the truth?

Yeah. And one way to start processing what it is you need for safety is through a safety action plan. So, Heather, can you tell us what is a safety action plan and how is this helpful in our early stages of healing from betrayal trauma?

Yeah, so this is a great question, because we have a safety action plan that's written into the curriculum in Betrayal and Beyond. But sometimes we find that women, because they've been so hurt by this experience, that they want to make sure that everything that they've been feeling for the last however much time, that they never feel that again, a safety action plan can be helpful to put in place, to put in writing so that then you know what steps you need to take when and if this happens again. Because a lot of times, I mean, I would love it if once people get into recovery, into that process, that. That the addict spouse never relapses again. But that's a. Some at some point is an unrealistic expectation. So what does it look like that you can establish safety and sanity and have boundaries and have it all in one place. If in writing that then you share with your spouse to say, this is what I like our plan to look like so that when this happens again, we can just pull out our plan and start moving forward with the things that we already know are going to work. And so whether or not that's establishing a timeline that when you relapse with pornography, then you need to have this many days of sleeping somewhere else, either outside of our bed, maybe on the couch, maybe at somebody else's house. If you relapse again, you're going to tell me within 12 hours that this isn't something that. Because I don't ever want to discover this on my own. And if we're going to establish trust and. And have honesty in our relationship, then I want to make sure that when you relapse, that you tell me within 12 hours or whatever established time frame that you have. And sometimes if the struggling spouse is in group. They will also have a version of a safety plan or a recovery action plan that will contain a lot of this same information. But it really is important that this is something that the betrayed spouse feels like they have a little bit of healthy control over. Again, not to control the spouse, but to say that when relapse happens, then I have these things in place, already established that I know that I don't have to go through that sequence of spiraling again for a week and yelling at my kids and not knowing where to turn. But I have this plan that I can pull out that says, when you tell me, when you disclose to me that you relapsed, I'm going to call this person and I'm going to reach out to this person to watch the kids so I can have an afternoon with this person to debrief. And then I'm going to ask my spouse to go and meet with their group leader or meet with a pastor, or I'm going to, if this happens this many times, then I'm going to reach out to a counselor, a pure desire counselor, to see if counseling is our next step. And it just really lays out in practical steps what you need to do when relapse happens.

And it's really helpful to have that in writing. I know some couples might feel like, well, we kind of talked about it, but there are so many ways in which things get forgotten. The person struggling, whether intentionally or unintentionally, doesn't want to feel pain and might forget or kind of gloss over, like, well, I thought it was only this. And if you've got it in writing, and particularly you've been able to have that conversation in your marriage of where you're in agreement. And there's something really, I think, empowering about feeling like, okay, this happened and we're dealing with it, and that this doesn't mean it's over. But it's helpful to know we have a plan if this happens again and that we're both ready for it. And it's clear and it's in writing. And what I've talked about with so many of the men in groups who don't have one, I'm like, this is really your deterrent from future acting out, because you already understand what your spouse needs and what you've agreed to do, and that this relapse will cost you something. And when it's been a hidden behavior, when it's been under the radar, it's so easy to minimize, to rationalize, deny. And the Struggler, addict, just like, okay, that happened, but you know, that was just a one off thing. It's not going to keep happening. And then it's been a pattern for years and years and there haven't been clear consequences, which is part of what causes the brain to keep coming back to it. And again, we talked about this in the first episode of this series, so you could go back and catch that. But when there are some clear steps, it causes the brain pain in a way that will help the brain cooperate with you to make changes. And so I just bring that up for the betrayed spouse because you might feel like, I don't want to put these things on them or make it hard on them. Where there is a reality, in some ways, they need it to be hard. They need to know this choice has an impact on me as the spouse and I'm not comfortable with it going on. And if it keeps happening, here's what we're going to do. That plan is not only empowering, but it's also, again, it's that deterrent from future behavior. And when it's not written or when it's vague or when we're all unclear of what we'll do, the likelihood of a relapse occurring is much higher because of the way the brain will rationalize and go, well, you know, she caught me. And it was really rough for a week, but then we kind of got over it. Now things are fine and a few months later you're back in that same cycle and nothing's really changed. So the safety action plan, and by the way, it's on our tools page@puredesire.org, and I think if you go to the tools page, it might also be called the recovery action plan, because on the struggler or addict side, we call it a recovery action plan of how they're planning to recover. And there's also a version of it for the spouse. It's in the workbooks, but you don't need to own a workbook to see it. You could go to our tools page. And again, we've had several podcasts unpacking the recovery action plan and the safety plan for spouses.

Yeah, and the thing I like about it is I can be a worrier. And I remember listening to a Dr. David Jeremiah sermon talking about worry and just, you know, we're either going to spend time worrying today and again when the actual thing happens, which, you know, doesn't always happen, or we cannot worry today and just save it for the day. So we're either doing double worry or just single worry, either way. And I liked this plan because I feel like it helped me be able to shut off the, the present, worry about future things. I was able to just remind myself I already created, I already did the hard work of putting myself in that zone, that feeling of what happens after betrayal again, and made a plan. And so I don't have to worry about that today because if it happens, I have a plan. And so for me, it reduced some chronic decision fatigue of like, well, what if this happens and what if I catch him doing this? And because I was just, oh, nope, Ashley, we're not going to spend time thinking about that. We've will get the plan out if it happens. And so that was one benefit. And then you kind of alluded to it. Just making a plan of what's good for you when you're not in shame brain and trauma brain. You know, like, I remember getting our plans out after a relapse with John and just there was some pushback of not wanting to do some of the things. And it was like, well, this is literally our writing from our decision making, you know, our decision making process that we did when we were not in trauma and we were not experiencing shame because we're in addiction again. And so to me, it makes sense that we would use the, the plans that we created when we were in our healthiest state, not when we're both experiencing so much pain and, and shame over what's happened. And, and so it's just a good reminder that, you know, nobody else wrote these plans. This was us, you know, when we were in a better state than we are now. And so we should probably follow, follow the advice. And so it is helpful in those ways, even though it's not anything fun to do or anything you want to have to use, but it's going to be better for you to have it planned out ahead of time.

And if you want to change it later, you can. But in the moment, to stick to what you wrote and to agree to those consequences, even if they're painful, is again part of what creates learning and transformation. So, Heather, for the betrayed partner who's caught their spouse looking at porn, they have likely somewhere in this process, been lied to. And maybe they feel like it's just the lies of omission for the time period where they didn't know. But in terms of expecting their spouse to now be completely honest, is that reasonable? And can they expect transparency from their struggling spouse moving forward, what are your thoughts along those lines?

I would Say yes, that they should be able to have that expectation. Especially if the goal here is to reconcile at some point. Because a marriage, a relationship without trust and honesty is nothing. You know, it's not going to work. And so being able to have that, even if that is in part of your safety plan, that expectation of honesty, and just keeping in mind, too, that the expectation is not for perfection. The expectation is not that from this day forward, your spouse is going to do everything that you asked them to do. It isn't that, but that when there's a relapse, when there's a lapse, when there's something that comes up that could be more traumatizing, could be detrimental to the relationship, that the addict spouse is going to just own it and say, this is what happened, this is what you know, and own that not only with their spouse, but also with their group too. Because that practice of honesty, not only is it building relationship with your spouse, but it really is reinforcing the struggling spouse's identity with themselves. Because we have a tendency that, especially when we're living in addiction, we lie to ourselves all the time. We tell ourselves, this isn't a big deal. I'm not hurting anybody. There's no other person involved. We have a list of lies that we tell ourselves. And. And even to kind of break that pattern, getting used to the fact that every single time that you do something that's going to be dishonoring to your wife and that has the potential to devastate your marriage again, that you need to be honest about it and that you need to own it. And I know that even in the Seven Pillars curriculum, they talk about honesty a lot. And we have, I think, a podcast on it, and we have a blog that is talking about the difference between honesty and, you know, disclosure in the process. But having that expectation of honesty should be a yes, but it. But also a reminder that it's not just for the betrayed spouse, it's to help the struggling spouse to learn what honesty looks like with God in themselves and others.

Yeah, I was going to say I think it's completely fair to expect honesty, but also not to be completely surprised if it takes that addicted, struggling spouse time to really figure out how much they've lived in those lies. I mean, I know that was my story. I wanted to be honest, but I had such a pattern of ways. I had subtly been hiding behavior just so it wasn't this constant issue. And to see all the ways in which, wow, even in a really small way, I was being dishonest there. It didn't immediately change overnight. I wish it did. And I wasn't trying to like stay in dishonesty, because that's kind of another conversation. If someone wants to live in lies and stay dishonest, your problem is now not only porn, it's also someone living in lies and dishonesty. But even a well intentioned spouse who wants to change might be in a fog of addiction, having lived in a pattern like this maybe for decades, and coming out of it will take time in some regards. But I think that's again where the safety action plan, the recovery action plan is so important. Because in that you do want to expressly write out. What honesty do you expect if you view pornography on your phone? You need to tell me if you act out with masturbation or cross this line. And what I would really encourage spouses in this area too is to focus on actions and behaviors, not thoughts. Because sometimes we get into that place like, well, you just need to tell me absolutely everything all the time. And they even want to, like, even if you think of something bad, you need to tell me. And that can be a very destructive rabbit hole to go down. Because now that spouse, like, if I had a momentary thought about someone who walked by and I thought they were cute or that they're, you know, their body figure was attracted to me, like, okay, now I gotta tell them that, gotta tell them that. And that can just be so anxiety producing really for both spouses. Because the thoughts, you know, we've often quoted from the Old Testament that the heart is desperately wicked. Who can understand it? There's, there is a fallenness to us, there's a sinfulness to us. And the thoughts come for so many different reasons and take time to unravel. And if we feel like as a spouse we need to hear every one of those, like it's just going to be triggering over and over. But the value of the actions, like, and if you act on that thought and you know, save that photo or follow someone or reach out to them or click on that link, those are actions, those are behaviors. And if we feel like I need to know when you've taken that step, that's entirely fair. And I think over time, if you're in a healing process, if you're both doing group, your spouse will learn how to unmask their thought life and to show what parts of that are helpful to bring into the marriage conversation so that you're aware and what is, you know, just a triggering thought that might not have, not have Anything to do with them or their behaviors. But it's the kind of thing that pops into the mind of someone who has struggled with sexual activity. Over time that will become clear. So that was just my encouragement. Focus on actions and behaviors and really clarify what are the actions and behaviors that if you do this, I feel like I need to know so that we can rebuild trust and work on having safety in our relationship.

Yeah, I think it's a good time to point people back to the honesty versus disclosure because I know early in our journey I wanted all the information. I'm like, okay, you've been lying to me for the first four years of our marriage. So I want everything. And, and, and for the addict who has been in this pattern of lying, minimizing, convincing themselves they're not hurting anybody, I mean, that's a lot of years of telling yourself these things and, and starting to believe that. And so that's why we emphasize the two to five year process. And, and you need to go to group the second year as the struggler, because the first year you are just stopping the bleeding. You're trying to minimize the crisis and the damage and it may be a success to just be sober. Where the second year you're really digging into your recovery in a way that you can't. The first year you're able to see things a little clearer. You've broken through some denial, you've connected some dots. And so each year it's is, is a different layer that you're addressing. And so as much as we want the, the addict to realize this was a mistake, I'm going to be an honest person from this point on. And it's really a two to five year process on both sides. And, and that's why, because we're going to go deeper and deeper and build relationships and become a new creation through the wiring and the rewiring of our brain. So our next question is what can betrayed partners do to minimize the shame and isolation that often accompanies discovery and their new reality?

Yeah, so I think that this one goes back to reaching out for support, which is really challenging for, I think women when they've experienced shame. And this is natural, I think, for women to feel like if my spouse is looking at porn, then it means that I'm not attractive, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not enough sexually, I'm not, you know, and this list goes on and on. And I think there is a lot of shame that women carry with that. And even when we, when we say things like like sex addiction is not about sex. It's about medicating your pain. When you first discover that, that your spouse is looking at porn, that's not a helpful message because you're flooded with all the feelings and the shame and even embarrassment of that. So I think that reaching out for help is, is going to be your number one thing. And yet we know from working at Pure Desire that a lot of churches don't know what to do. They don't know how to handle these kind of situations. They don't know what to say because a lot of them are going to say, oh, well, have you prayed more? Are you reading your Bible? Are you having more sex with him? Are you? And that's not helpful to a betrayed partner. And so we've said it already. But at Pure Desire, you can contact us and at any time you can send us an email@infoouredesire.org you can just reach out because we know most of the people on staff who work here, they have struggled with addictive behaviors, they have experienced betrayal. We will connect you with somebody who can help you and be a good source for you to move forward. But it really has a lot to don't stay alone. You know what I mean? Don't let yourself stay in a place that's going to only contribute to that non functioning, spiraling, you know, isolation type of behavior. You really need somebody else to walk this out with you.

Yeah. Sometimes that isolation is driven by not knowing who we can tell because we feel like, I don't know if I want to tell my family and bring them into these issues. I don't want to talk to his family and make him the bad guy. I've got friends that will give me bad advice. And we feel like, is there anyone that would understand? And there is a reality that not everyone needs to know everything all at once up front. And it's asking the question, where can I find safe people that I believe will understand, will listen well, and will walk with me through this? And so it might be, is there a recovery pastor at your church? Is there a recovery group ministry? Do they have Pure Desire groups in a church near you? Is there a group leader listed that you would sense? I think they know what I'm going through and they would be safe to tell. And for many people, sometimes it is easier to break out of isolation initially with someone that they don't know as well because there is fear of will my friends judge me or what will my family think? And if you're kind of stuck in that that's totally normal. So who might be around you? Someone who coaches in this area of sexual addiction and integrity, a therapist, a group leader that you feel like, I don't really know them, but I think they know this topic and I would feel comfortable telling them that's okay. It's. It's. It's okay to go to someone, to just start getting out of your own pattern or your own head and, and have someone that can listen well. And so again, just thinking through who might that be around you, and if you can't find anyone, that's a big part of why pure desire is here.

Yeah. And I think even, you know, when we, when we do our unfiltered podcast and people ask questions, and it's the same thing in a betrayal and beyond group. Sometimes just hearing other people ask the questions that you were thinking of and, and hearing like, I really thought I was the only one thinking that I really thought I was the only one experiencing that, or, well, she looks like she's, you know, a decent wife and going through the same thing. So maybe it's not just about me. And, and that's why community is so important to break down the shame piece, because we can, we can go through this steps of, of healing or getting through the trauma or recover, you know, finding sobriety from addiction, but being in a peer community and sharing that with other people is what starts to break down the shame messages. And so it might be if you're, if you're feeling isolated or too much shame to take a step then, then starting with something like a book or a podcast where you can see yourself in other stories and you can see that you're not alone, is maybe a safer step before, you know, going into a group.

So, Heather, another topic we mentioned is on forgiveness. And many times following discovery, our primary goal, or maybe a goal that's given to us by others, is that we need to help the other person feel better. We rush towards forgiveness, you know, be reconciled, don't let the sun go down on your anger, and kind of this idea so that we can move on. Why might this be a bad strategy early in discovery?

Yeah, this is one of those situations too, where forgiveness is important. It's an important piece to any relationship. And God asks us to be forgiving of others, which is reasonable. And at the same time, it is unlikely for a person to be forgiving when they don't have all the information. And so even, like Ashley, you mentioned it earlier, and I think you did too, about when people struggle with addictive Behaviors, they end up living in this addictive fog for so long that it takes a while for their brain to kind of clear out all of the junk and for them also to be stabilized so they can tell a coherent narrative of why they're doing what they're doing. And so a lot of times, I mean, that's going to take some time. But again, for the betrayed partner, nobody would ever ask you to forgive what you don't know. You're forgiving. And I think that that sometimes causes more harm for the betrayed partner. And especially I've heard this specifically in group, that when women say they rush to forgive and then their husband reveals something else that hadn't ever been revealed before, and they're feeling all of this internal distress and discomfort and trauma, and they wanna talk about it with somebody and wanna talk about it with their spouse. But he says, well, you already forgave me like that. Forgiveness seems to have covered everything that I'm gonna do or have done, even if you don't know about it. If you say you forgive me, then we're good, and you can't ever talk about anything and you can't bring it up again. And that's not healthy. And that's not what we recommend for recovery. And so it really is for betrayed partners a little bit of a. Of a boundary, so to speak, to say, my heart is so hurting right now, but my. My heart still loves you. I love you. And I want to be forgiving, and I want to work toward reconciliation. But in order for me to do that in the healthiest way, I need to be in group so that I am being equipped with the tools that I need to be forgiving. And I want you to be in group so that you also are working in that same direction. Because more than anything, my heart wants to forgive you, but my pain is so great right now that forgiving you is unreasonable. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's important for the addict to have support for the reason that you just stated, Heather, that I. I remember that trap of feeling. I already talked about this. We already talked it out. And so I can't bring it up because then it's, you know, I'm quoting digging up the past or bringing up the past where it's like, trauma is that way, where you have to. Maybe you may experience a new trigger and need to talk through something, and then that can end up being triggering to the addict, spouse, or even triggering shame in them again that they've caused this pain for their spouse. And so for them to have their own support and also know that it's normal that you're going to talk about this more than once. You need to be present. But it's okay for the addict spouse to say, you know, can we talk about this in an hour? Or can we, you know, get through dinner and then go on a walk and talk about this? And for both, both people to figure out what that looks like when you have to maybe go through another wave of conversation and the process of forgiveness, that it's not just a one and done thing, but to have good strategies in place for that.

And we need to keep in mind there are many, I think, false narratives around forgiveness that really are not what forgiveness is about. So forgiveness does not mean an elimination of consequences. Forgiveness does not mean that, hey, everything's okay, and now we're going to act like it never happened. Forgiveness does not mean the same thing as reconciliation. And sometimes in our theology we have heard things like that. And sometimes that error is because we feel that's what God does. But we are not God. And human relationships are not the same as what God, when he pronounces forgiveness over us through Christ. God is a completely emotionally centered being who knows absolutely everything we've done and is not in an equal relationship like he is God and we're not. And so his forgiveness is really of a different nature. Where my forgiveness of you, what I try to remind people is in that regard, forgiveness is primarily for me. It's not for you, the offending spouse. Forgiveness is me releasing the right to judge, releasing you from being the target of my anger and the one that now I have like this right to hold this against you. I'm forgiving, I'm letting go of that, but that doesn't mean I now have no boundaries or we act like it never happened. Forgiveness and trust also aren't simultaneous. And I think sometimes that's what we feel is to forgive means. Well, now I trust you and it's like it never happened and we're just starting fresh. And that would be beautiful, but it's ignoring the reality of there may be a long standing pattern here that I don't know if it's immediately changed. And there may be wisdom even to have an awareness of what else is going on. You know, unfortunately we talked to many, many couples that infidelity is a part of the story. And if there's infidelity, there need to be things like STD testing. And I don't need to willingly move forward with you if I don't know who you've been with. And so there's all these other questions that if we become aware of, oh, that's actually not forgiveness, we might actually find as a spouse, we're more able to move towards forgiveness. Because it's something I want for my heart to be in a place of. I'm not sitting in judgment over you anymore. And there are still boundaries and there's still consequences, even if I've forgiven you. So sometimes thinking through what we mean by forgiveness and that when someone says this, we just need to forgive and move on to ask the question, what are they really saying there? Because I'm not sure they're saying what they're saying is really about forgiveness, but it's more about we're trying to move past the uncomfortability of this relationship and just make everything better, which truly we've seen is not healthy for either person in that situation.

Yeah, I was thinking of one more thing. Nick. You kind of alluded to it. John and I have had few relapses, you know, over the course of 10 years that we've, or 12 years that we've been on this journey. And I think it's really empowering for the betrayed spouse to say, I am working. Like, just proclaim I am working toward forgiveness. And if you know that what's happened in your marriage is not a deal breaker, you're not leaving it, but you're committing to stay. It's okay to say, I'm forgiving you. I'm working toward it. My feelings haven't followed, but I'm working toward releasing this to God and letting him take care of it. And, and I'm sure my feelings will eventually catch up. And I don't trust you right now, but I'm, I'm here and I'm committed to working through this together. It's like this is me saying I'm willing to work toward it. And, and that shift happened for me, like halfway through our, you know, process of trying to figure out what this looks like. And, and even just that mental shift of saying, just because I say something or do something or commit to something doesn't mean that I'm going to feel all those things right away was freeing as a betrayed spouse, because I, I, I definitely fell under the, the lie of, okay, well, I've given it to God, I've forgiven, and I don't feel that way. I don't feel very forgiving. So what am I doing wrong with my faith? And what am I doing wrong in this process of forgiveness? And it just doesn't look like that. So again, being aware of what realistically things are going to be like is, is empowering for, for either person on either side. All right. If the struggling spouse is unwilling to work on their recovery, what can the betrayed partner do for their own healing?

I would say definitely to pursue your own healing, whether that's through being in a group, in a betrayal and beyond group or through individual counseling. Because one of the things too that, and we've experienced this at conferences where a spouse has just recently found out maybe the extent of her husband's sexually acting out and will say I want a divorce. I mean, they're at a pure desire conference and she's ready to divorce him that day. And so we will usually encourage them to get into group. Could you take eight or nine months to go through betrayal and beyond just so that you are not only equipped because the information in there is going to help you in this process, but that you're equipped, that you have all of the information that you need to have not only about yourself, but also about your struggling spouse so you can make informed decisions about your future. It's not to say that anything is going to maybe change with your struggling spouse, but again, you're going to be in a better place physically and emotionally and spiritually to make these big life altering decisions if you slow down and take the time to pursue healing for yourself. Because we really find that this, that two things will happen as a result of this. Even either your healing spills over into what your spouse is doing and they recognize that, you know what, I want this, I want this relationship, I want this, I want recovery. And so they'll jump in or they don't want to do the work and they're going to leave the relationship. And so either way, it still is going to benefit the betrayed spouse in the long run to just pursue healing, whatever that looks like for them to just jump in and take care of yourself.

Yeah. It's helpful to remember that healing from the pain and trauma is a different journey than healing the relationship. And it's beautiful when those two things can happen together and in step with one another, but very often they don't. That pursuing your healing is a priority no matter what and will put you, as you said, Heather, in the best place to make long term decisions if your spouse continues to choose not to pursue freedom. Now, I would say, and this is not to in any way excuse the behavior, but when someone's been struggling for a long time, recognize that they are trapped in a Lot of rationalizing, minimizing, denying the behavior. And so there's a part of us that does feel like, well, it's not that big of a deal. And maybe they've been listening to the lies. Like, everybody does it. At least I'm not sleeping around, it's not that bad. Why do you even care? And it may be helpful for you to just state the reality of what you feel and what you are or are not willing to put up within the marriage to say to them, regardless of what you decide to do. Here's what I can and cannot live within a marriage. And that can begin to communicate through their fog of denial and rationalizing, like, oh, this is a big deal. It is really painful. And if I keep choosing it, I'm choosing this over my marriage. As hard as this might be for you to believe as the betrayed spouse, it might not have occurred to them that it's that big of a deal to you because they've listened to all these other lies. So in a truthful way, just stating that here's what I'm not willing to live within our marriage and if you choose this, you're choosing it over me. Can be that eye opening experience that causes. And I've had many men in group like, well, I'm just here so my wife doesn't leave me. And they might start there, but I have seen over and over that over time they get out of that fog, they see the lies they've listened to and they come to a point of saying, oh, this is a big deal and I don't want this in my life either, and I'm going to do the work it takes. So if right now, immediately, they're not like, okay, I'm done forever, that's not uncommon. But many of those men, and you know, more often than not men will get to a place of seeing why it needs to change and why it's a big deal. So pursue your healing and state your truth in a way that might push them towards actually dealing with this really for the first time in their life.

Yeah. And this becomes this hard situation when you have a betrayed partner who, you know, they come to us and they say, under no circumstances ever will I ever leave my spouse. I just don't believe in divorce. And I'm never. And they're stuck in this cycle because with that belief and commitment, they're kind of not sure what to do with having boundaries or saying what they're willing. So they feel trapped in this marriage. And, and so there's no easy Answer. I mean, Heather and I tell, tell the ladies at our Q A when they say, what do I do with. If my husband's not working on his healing and not willing? It's like, this is not an easy. There's no answer we can give you that that's going to make this feel okay. It's, I mean, there's just not an easy answer because, because we, we aren't in control of other people. And unfortunately, other people have a great impact on how our life turns out when we've signed up to do life together. And so you have to first decide what are your deal breakers? Like you said, Nick, like as an individual, what are the things I'm absolutely not willing to deal with? And I feel like I have a pretty high tolerance and pain tolerance. And it's, you know, I'm pretty gracious because I've made a lot of my own mistakes. And so I understand what it feels like to make mistakes and know that that's not in my heart. It's not a reflection of how much I love somebody because it's my own addiction I'm battling with. But there are still deal breakers. If, if, let's say John decided I am never going to go to group. This is stupid. I, I don't have a problem. You're a big deal about it. That would probably be a deal breaker to me over any actual behavior that he's done or could do because there's no hope for change in that, in that instance. And so decide what your deal breakers are. And then if that is going to be the reality of your life, for example, you're never going to get divorced no matter what, never going to separate no matter what. Then you may need to put other boundaries in place still. But, but make that clear to your spouse and saying, I'm not ever going to leave you. We signed up till death do us part. And I'm never going to leave you. But I also don't feel safe sleeping with you. I also, you know, I can't go to those, those, those wedding get together, those work dinners where I see our friends having these healthy relationships. It's too painful for me. So I'm going to choose not to participate in those things or, or whatever it looks like to keep yourself as healthy as you can be in your current reality because there's not always a good answer if somebody's not willing to put the work in.

Yeah, these are not easy choices or easy situations. And so again, would circle back to what we said, why it's so important to have support, why it's so important to have people in your life that can speak the truth, can support you, can help you understand where you're making a wise decision and one that you need to make, and where you're maybe making something out of an unhealthy place or one that you may later regret. Because when we do these things on our own, the likelihood of steering off course because of the pain is much higher and the pain is real and the pain needs somewhere to go. But the more we have people around us that understand the journey and can point us towards what will lead to our future healing, and if possible, the healing of the relationship, the better off we'll be. So, Heather, I think this has been a super valuable conversation again around a topic that is so hard and messy and painful. But as we wrap up today, what encouragement would you want to give to someone who's listening to the podcast? Maybe because they're in the middle of this situation and they found this one or it got recommended to them because a friend knew they're in this situation. What encouragement would you give to them today as they think about walking through this season of Discovery?

I would probably just recommend that they do one thing. You know, one of the things that we talked about today, because we probably ended up talking about more than these six things, actually. But just to pick one thing and do something, whether it's tell somebody, whether it's, you know, go to PureDesire.org and look at what we offer on our website or get into an online group, anything that you can do to start this recovery journey, to start your healing would be really good. Because I think that for a lot of women, and especially because like you said earlier in the episode, it's not just that I found my husband looking at porn, it's all of the other variables now that I have to consider. If I have little kids at home, how can I do a group if. If we're already strapped so tight, our financial situation, how am I going to do these other things? And. But it is important that you do something because otherwise you're going to just spiral. But then there's. I mean, it becomes so hopeless, I think, for a lot of women. And so just being willing to do one thing, one brave step that you can do today that's going to start your healing, I think would be great.

Yeah. And just to, you know, remember that we don't want to stay stuck for years and years, and time alone is not going to heal anything. And so regardless of how Your situation, your relationship, your marriage is turning out to keep taking those baby steps, moving forward, as long as you're moving forward and out of it and not staying stuck or worse, medicating the pain of the betrayal and then creating your own struggle or your own chaos, which is also a very used option to deal with the betrayal pain. And we don't want anybody to use that option because it just, the, the pain is still going to be there when you stop using whatever it is you're using to cover that pain. And so do the hard work now so that you can have lasting healing and lasting freedom from that.

Yeah. So good. And I would say stand against the lies and speak truth to yourself. And the lies are things like, you're not alone. So here's the truth. You're not alone. You're not the only one going through this. Other people have walked this road. There's nothing about your beauty or body that caused them to do this. You couldn't have done anything to prevent it. And you're not the person that can fix it because we don't control other people. This has nothing to do with your value, worth or identity. And you can recover, you can heal, you can get through this. And I hope this episode has provided you with a number of ideas and next steps. And as we've mentioned, there's many other podcasts in our library that you could go and dig deeper into any one of these topics. But as we wrap up the conversation, we want to encourage you to remember that healing from betrayal trauma is a journey, it's not a race. And if you have just discovered your spouse's porn use, it is okay to feel overwhelmed and that what you're experiencing is real and valid. So as we've talked about today, take time to set some boundaries, seek support and give yourself grace. Don't rush to fix or forgive, but focus on your own safety and healing first. Whether or not your spouse chooses recovery, you can still move forward with strength and clarity. And as we've said, you are not alone. There's hope, there's help, and healing is absolutely possible one step at a time. So, Heather, thanks so much for joining this conversation today. It was great to have you.

Yeah, this was great.

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SA.